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To BINGBONG: God is real, I've met the Trinity not by sight and if He was anything like a lot of people that call themselves christians think, well that is just a thought that is too horrible to contemplate. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I just want to say this: that all of the people who have posted on this subject of 'heaven and hell' having 'decided for themselves,' apart from scripture, on the matter of 'who gets into God's heaven,' are essentially going up to Jesus, while he is preaching on the subject, and saying to him, "Hey Jesus, let me tell you how it is."

Richard.

I think that is a rather broad statement. All things being equal does atheism leave itself more open to the result of self centeredness versus a religious denomination? I may agree with that. However the result is determined by the individual and all the peripheral environmental factors and life experiences.

Christianity has sometimes been chastised as arrogant in it’s assumption of exclusiveness by believing in Christ and that the ‘one true religion’ puts it above others. That doesn’t mean Christianity leads to arrogance, not if it is truly understood.

Similarly atheism is merely the belief that God(s) do not exists. It is not a belief that the individual is the center of the universe. If an atheist is perceptive enough, and there are many, then they will see how life works and see that self centeredness does not work in the long run. They would see there is more than just them and they are part of the larger whole and that serving the whole produces more of what they want.

Whether you figure that out via religion/spirituality or through experience, you still figure it out.

Atheism leads to a self-centered arrogance of the highest degree...

Eric.

In your exchange with Amy Atheist point number 3 you said “It is the atheist who is self-centered, who runs his own show according to his own desires, which are paramount to him”.

I am not sure that I totally agree. Anyone can run the show according to his/her own desires based on free will both theists and atheists alike. Anyone can be self centered.

Without regurgitating my whole post I made on panelist Richard Mouw’s commentary (http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/richard_mouw/2007/07/directing_our_lives_one_way_or.html#comments ) I put forward that theists and atheists can both arrive at the same action based on different input. A theist may use scripture to drive ‘right’ action, a relative term, where as the atheist may use logic and experience to drive ‘right’ action. Both approaches work some of the time, but not all of the time.

My belief is God’s message comes to us all whether we believe in him/her or not. It comes in scripture to some and through life itself to others. One does not need to believe in God to see how life works and unknowingly get direction. An atheist can perceive what works and what does not and gather understanding without knowing of God. From an atheist’s position they just believe that they understand life to a certain extent and use their experience and logic to move them forward. Whether God exists (which I believe) or not the atheist way can still be an effective model. They can believe in many of the same things others do; love, compassion, kindness, etc.

I do not believe they will be excluded form Heaven. Again see my other post for the excruciating detail :) on my thoughts on heaven and hell if you are so inclined.

Peace

BINGBONG, play safe and don't kill anyone. You might have them waiting for you on the other side of the nebol bridge. Ah hell, go ahead. You can always kill them again over there if they don't learn their lesson.

Religion solves that problem for cowards. In their imaginations there is a place called hell where the ones they stab in the back are held so they can't retaliate. It's hard to stop laughing sometimes.

Check out the sharecropper, nail in club at http://www.hoax-buster.org and let that sway your thinking before you lynch any low lives or squeeze that trigger. Can't you pity Hitler with all those Jews waiting for him? If you can't take it then don't dish it out is probably good policy.

To the Army Atheist...

1.Christians cry for the personal loss of their loved one at the funeral. And they may cry for other reasons if that deceased loved one is not saved.

2.Being in the presence of God is so infinitely blissful that there is no possibility of being unhappy for any reason, and if a loved one is not there in heaven with you, you will have a divine understanding of the perfect justice of their exclusion, from God's point of view rather than from your own limited human ideas of what ought to have happened. Salvation or damnation is a personal matter between each person and their Creator. That includes you, Atheist.

3. Christianity is God-centered, not self-centered. We give up our own agendas and submit to God's agenda. It is the atheist who is self-centered, who runs his own show according to his own desires, which are paramount to him.

If a Christian truly believes in heaven and that they, and their friends and family, have chosen the correct path to get there, then why is there still crying at a Christian funeral? If they are so convinced that their loved ones are going to heaven then shouldn't they be having a joyous celebration?

How does a Christian rectify the problem of loved ones not making it to heaven? If you are a Christian who firmly believes you are going to heaven and you have a child that decides to become an atheist, what kind of joy can you truly experience living an eternity in heaven with the knowledge that your own child is spending the same eternity burning in hell?

If you can say that the thought of your own child suffering an eternity of torture does not trouble you then you are psychotic and should be summarily dismissed from the discussion because you can not claim a God of love when you clearly demonstrate you have no concept of love.

Lacking this concept of love that I as an atheist am comfortable acknowledging and accepting, you have attained the great position of completely and utterly self centered. Therefore by your own definition of Christian you are going to Hell.

To believe in heaven and hell is to condemn oneself to the misery of being destined only for the hotter of the two.

If a Christian truly believes in heaven and that they, and their friends and family, have chosen the correct path to get there, then why is there still crying at a Christian funeral? If they are so convinced that their loved ones are going to heaven then shouldn't they be having a joyous celebration?

How does a Christian rectify the problem of loved ones not making it to heaven? If you are a Christian who firmly believes you are going to heaven and you have a child that decides to become an atheist, what kind of joy can you truly experience living an eternity in heaven with the knowledge that your own child is spending the same eternity burning in hell?

If you can say that the thought of your own child suffering an eternity of torture does not trouble you then you are psychotic and should be summarily dismissed from the discussion because you can not claim a God of love when you clearly demonstrate you have no concept of love.

Lacking this concept of love that I as an atheist am comfortable acknowledging and accepting, you have attained the great position of completely and utterly self centered. Therefore by your own definition of Christian you are going to Hell.

To believe in heaven and hell is to condemn oneself to the misery of being destined only for the hotter of the two.

If there is a Hell, I'm going to it, because according to the beliefs of Christians and other fooled by the hand of man, I make my own decisions and don't go by what some other sad little human tells me.

Grow up, you losers. There is no such thing as "God" and there is no such thing as Heaven and Hell.

Do I know this for sure? Heck no, but I'm willing to bet my soul on it. And I'm betting that when I'm dead, I won't be going anyplace else but the ground.

Heaven and Hell only exist for those pitiful enough to need them in their so-called "lives". Fear of eternal damnation makes many people afraid to live their lives for today.

All of you believers need to face facts and realise that the rest of us aren't interested in salvation or damnation. We just want to survive in this world. Grow up and leave the rest of us alone. We'll deal with the afterlife on our own terms.

Heaven and Hell only exist for those pitiful enough to need them in their so-called "lives". Fear of eternal damnation makes many people afraid to live their lives for today.

All of you believers need to face facts and realise that the rest of us aren't interested in salvation or damnation. We just want to survive in this world. Grow up and leave the rest of us alone. We'll deal with the afterlife on our own terms.

Hey Christians

Ever think you're being hoodwinked?

Ever think?

It seems that most of the people commenting here are expressing signs of desperation as they defend superstition. It really is tragic and frankly a frustrating aspect of existence in America that Americans who have every opportunity for intellectual freedom seem to be lazy, unwilling or perhaps too fearful to take the leap towards enlightenment preferring to embrace the claptrap that emanates from the superstition peddlers, circus huckster clerics. Who in their right mind believes that Noah’s Ark is a true story or that Creationism offers insights into anything? Way too many Americans do for sure. BTW The 10 Commandments are basically wicked and misogynist. What’s the deal with a jealous boyfriend god that threatens damnation and hellfire if you dare check out another god? Isn’t that the modus of ex-lovers who stalk, assault and murder?

Yes of course there is no difference between Astrology, I Ching, crystal ball gazing, Judaism, Christianity or Islam etc. Religion is by definition the practice of myth, magic and superstition. Why we don’t as people seeking the common good take action and indict clerics for marketing something that isn’t proven is beyond me. Superstition peddlers and the whacky beliefs they continue to infect the gullible with deserve ridicule and criticizing for deluding the emotionally immature. When the pope/king dresses up like a Las Vegas show girl and parades on stage chanting magic words while waving a wand a la Harry Potter everyone really should break out in laughter yet thanks to the emotional bullying from childhood religious conditioning most can only genuflect as feudal serfs before a monarch. How crazy is that?

A professor of theology is supposed to have a stand on heaven or hell? His job should be to present an accurate history of religions in an objective manner. His beliefs outside of the classroom and profession are his personal beliefs. He isn't at a seminary!

I'm agnostic and I personally believe that no one really "knows." Religions and their followers always want to claim to have THE answer and want to discredit those who don't believe as they do. It's sickening.

Barry, do you honestly believe in God because you think it's safer to believe than not to? Sounds illogical. I'll assume you apply this to all aspects of life. Do you also believe in Santa Claus in hope of receiving gifts, because if you don't believe, he won't come around on Dec. 25? Don't forget the milk and cookies.

Chester, allow me to thank you. Very few people have the wisdom to know that their beliefs may not be true. You, unlike some of the other panelists, are wise. Even though as an atheist, I respectfully disagree with your conclusion, I do admire your willingness to examine all possible truths instead of singly declaring one true beyond all possible doubt. The world would be a better place if everyone had your attitude.

It is an absurd idea that an omnipresent and omniscient God would create a Hell for sinners to suffer -- God is in all things, and sustains all things!! God would be in Hell as well!! God knows all things!! God would know how it is to suffer as those in Hell!!

Pandeism is the logical answer: God became the Universe to answer what would have to be God's only burning question, what is the experience of being an entity with limited power? That, friend, is our purpose, we are God's experience of limitation.... our Heaven is the good that we do for one another, our Hell is the harm we cause one another. According to at least one theory of Pandeism our reward or punishment in the next world will be, in returning to God, experiencing the good we did and the harm we did to others!! That, friend, is the truth of Pandeism!!

Hi Jihadist, good to hear form you. Been busy or would have responded sooner.

You did an excellent job of defending suicide attacks especially so when you compare them to kamikaze. In the case of kamikaze they were serving a living God, had even signed a contract. I'm probably wrong but I've heard, (as you mention not knowing about Jews I'm equally ignorant of Islam) that jihad suicide attackers are welcomed into the kingdom of Allah, martyrs, absolutely saved by Christian standards.

As to the notion they are simple soldiers fighting in a losing cause against an aggressor, does that apply to the 19, 9-11-2001? I'm having difficulty making the connection at that time. Now we are responding to 9-11 according to our government in a couple of places, one obvious and one not so obvious. Seems to me the suicide attacks predate any real response to our response to 9-11, be that response reasonable or otherwise.

With the above thought in mind it might be worth while examining the history of US response to suicide attacks, specifically kamikaze. An Coulter has declared that we should start killing people, civilians in Iraq until the ones left alive decided living was better than dying. She's only repeating what our famous Civil War General, William T Sherman said about folks living in Georgia, South Carolina, Tennessee, Mississippi, rebels in general. I get a chuckle over where she gets her best listeners.

FYI, I believe in more life after this one. I don't believe suicide attackers will be shielded from their victims in the next world. Maybe you should have a look at that web site. It's causing ministers to suddenly speak French, could help you understand better what I am saying.

That's http://www.hoax-buster.org Check out the NEBOL BRIDGE and see if you can tell me who will be deprived it's crossing, why they won't make it and where do they, the ones not allowed across it go? Do Muslims believe there is a boogie demon on the nebol bridge kicking "sinners" over the side and down into hell? Christians believe, have faith in it.

Regards

Hell is deep and hell is wide. There ain't no bottom and there ain't no sides. No place to hide down there.
So dont you look to the right. Don't you look to the left. Just keep in the middle of the middle, of the middle of the road.
Tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the meek will inherit the earth, the "RAPTURE." WHAT FOOLS THESE MORTALS BE.

Hell is deep and hell is wide. There ain't no bottom and there ain't no sides. No place to hide down there.
So dont you look to the right. Don't you look to the left. Just keep in the middle of the middle, of the middle of the road.
Tooth fairy, Santa Claus, the meek will inherit the earth, the "RAPTURE." WHAT FOOLS THESE MORTALS BE.

Ron Beatty-it sounds silly when you speak of biblical "evidence"
Professor Gillis is an educated man and speaks like one-you cannot state "facts" about beliefs when speaking of religion-there is no way to prove anything
I like religious men like him-they can state what they believe but give credit to the FACT that no one really knows-very few religious people are so open minded....
Lastly, Ron, more people do NOT believe Jesus was the son of god than do-you sound very arrogant with your unwavering "knowledge". It is OK to admit you are afraid of death. The TRULY religious are a very frightened people.

Ron Beatty-it sounds silly when you speak of biblical "evidence"
Professor Gillis is an educated man and speaks like one-you cannot state "facts" about beliefs when speaking of religion-there is no way to prove anything
I like religious men like him-they can state what they believe but give credit to the FACT that no one really knows-very few religious people are so open minded....
Lastly, Ron, more people do NOT believe Jesus was the son of god than do-you sound very arrogant with your unwavering "knowledge". It is OK to admit you are afraid of death. The TRULY religious are a very frightened people.

When we correct our children, we sometimes have to threaten them with things that would make life HELL(uncomfortable). Hell is a made up version of "OR ELSE." Heaven is the reward of doing things right. Both are made up for religious brain washing. Go back thousands of years and history will tell you that the word of God has murdered more humans than all the wars combined. Geez, they must be in hell, no heaven, oh thats right, we made up purgatory for the unkown. Its all uneducated "don't know" so lets make it good and evil.......Is there Heaven or Hell; only if you were brainwashed to believe it...

Some of the responders to Dr. Gillis have criticized him for "not taking a stand". By contrast, I commend Dr. Gillis for his non-stand.

Most of the responders to this thread seem VERY CERTAIN that their particular belief is correct. I think that is unfortunate because the thread question pertains to MYSTERY, to the UNKNOWN, and the UNKNOWABLE. Dogmatic answers to questions about heaven and hell are presumptuous.

Dr. Gillis: I liked your post, and although I am not a Christian in the sense that you are, I think more dialog with you would be good for me.

By the way, concerning your reference to human free will -- strictly and illusion.

In the Greek of the new testament It says that he called us for himself before the foundation of the earth and that Jesus was the price paid for the sin of fallen mankind. The greek "called" is a verb in the middle voice which means that he called and chose us for himself for his own purpose and further the new testament is a new covenant of faith in his blood and not in performance or what we eat or wear or do. Heaven is a place where Jesus came from and returned to and is coming again to those who trust him to take them there.

Jeff. The Bible teaches that there is life after death and that you either go to heaven or hell based on whether or not you've trusted in Jesus. Either you are wrong in rejecting this, or I am wrong in believing it. If I am wrong, I have lost nothing but simply die and rot. However, if you are wrong you stand to face an eternity in a place nobody wants to be in. I'll take the chance that I'm wrong.

You people are all crazy. You assume too much. How about when you die that's it. You are dead and it's over. It's what we all have to face and what makes us human. It really is a blessing of sorts, life is difficult. Let's all enjoy our time here.

Hello BGone my friend:)

The French blogs I was in to practice my French is getting too intense about 4th July, Robespierre, Lafayette and all.

How can you be certain we are all going to hell if you don't belief in such hereafter heaven and hell? As a believer, when people tells me I am going to hell, it neither bothered nor flustered me.

As for your question on suicides, suicide is a "sin" and a cowardly act for a way out of dealing with life. Suicides are consequently much lower among Muslims compared to adherents of other faiths or no faiths.

As for suicide attackers, be they Palestinians (who incidentally have a high percentage of Christian Palestinians who are suicide attackers) or Tamil Tigers, they are weapons, who chose to be weapons, who reasoned that in their war, they are going to get killed anyway. So, might as well get killed by their own hands and take a few with them too. Perverse logic of war. Like Japanese kamikaze fighters.

If you want to be cold bloodedly factual about it as a non-delusional non-believer, suicide attackers takes less victims than the regimes or governments' military they are against in civilian victims of assaults. Conventional armies kill more people than fringe or substate or non-state groups. They have better and more advanced weapons, so suicide attackers can never win and are the death throes, a statement of desperation and hopeless, helpless rage.

As for my good friend Canyon Shearer, I am sure he thinks he is going to heaven in the hereafter and the rest who don't find and accept salvation as he espouse will go to hell.

As for Jews, I have no idea what they truly think and feel about heaven and hell but to rely on the Jewish panelists in On Faith to guide me.

Only the Muslim counterparts of Christian inerrantists are very, very sure of their own take on heaven and hell, and as to whom will go to hell.

As I've stated in another thread to you, most Muslims don't really think of heaven and hell in the hereafter, but to focus on the here and now. It is quite Jewish, Buddhist and Susan Jacoby in that way.

Best regards
J

If this christian heaven is going to be populated with beings like Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Jimmey Swaggert, Jim & Tammy Fae, Oral Robets, et. al. Then I don't want to be anywhere near there. Spending eternity around creeps like that is my idea of a true hell.

Did you know that Jesus went to hell? But hell is not what you think it is. Check religion & hell 101.

Rob

What a sad state of affairs when a professor of Theology at a Catholic university states, "I don't know if heaven and hell exist". Is that what you're teaching your students? Shameful...read your Catechism.

It is disappointing to me that a professor of theology either is afraid to take a stand, or has gotten to watered down to do so, in the very real existence of a heaven and hell. As a Christian I absolutely believe in the existence of both places. I agree with the professor in one sense, it is not up to me to determine who will be in either place, but I disagree that hell is at all temporary, or that it is simply a separation from God. The biblical evidence makes it a place of torment, and there is only one way to escape it, and it is not by being Muslim, Buddhist, or anything other than a believer in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. There is no other way.

i am not a "religious" person. i am , however,
saved from hell , using hell to identify the
eternal seperation of the soul from the love , peace , and divine light of the creator(GOD).

GOD,as i know him , is the GOD of abraham,issac,
and jacob (jacob IS israel).HE (GOD) will return
to this earth and seperate the righteous from the
evil and cast them into a dimension where they will be eternally (no hope) seperated from his universe.

at HIS judgement, ALL those not recorded in the book of life will be cast into hell.

the ONLY way to get into the book of life is through the blood of YASHUA (JESUS) who has come , died , rose , and ascended back to the presence of the FATHER.yashua will returrn soon
and rule this earth and clean it up for the return of the FATHER.

The concept of Heaven and Hell was, in my opinion, used within the context of the timeframe to teach man of the value of an orderly christian life. When these principles were being spread throughout the land, it was during a time when morality and virtue were still developing. As with many of the tenets of the scriptures, analogies, or parables, were used to simplify the message to the (ignorant savages) prospective christians. As far as personally believing in Heaven or Hell, I don't believe in gold paved streets, and angels with harps, nor demons with pitchforks. I do believe that possibly a positive and negative energy charge might draw similar polarities into a collective mass, with a so-called "cosmic Consciousness" being the equivalent of Heaven or Hell. In other words, Be Good Here On Earth; COULDN'T HURT!!!

You are right, professor Gillis!

Only brave man tell the truth.

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The bible mainly speaks of 'hell' (translated from Greek or Hebrew) as a grave, big cave down in the earth, etc. There is, though, reference to a consuming fire (greek 'gahenna') what will consume (that is, the lake of fire...after the final great white throne judgement - following millenial reign of Christ on earth)..not with red horned beings with pitchforks or turning people on a spit forever and ever. All myth with no biblical basis whatsoever. Just as going to heaven is a widespread deception. Scripture speaks of those who sleep in the grave until the resurrections. Yes, two resurrections. Very clear scripture states no man has ascended to heaven. Gods kingdom will be set up on this earth, with a new heaven and earth following the millenial reign of Christ and the great white throne judgement. The adversary certainly has had his part in deceiving most of mankind thru the ages, as Rev 12:9 informs us.

The religious have not seriously considered the arguments against religion or they would not believe anymore. All religions posit ridiculous beliefs that no reasonable person who was not raised in that faith could possibly accept. Here’s the Aztec creation myth (below). Does any reader find this story credible? if you looked at Christianity or Islam, etc. from an unbiased perspective, they would seem just as ludicrous as the Aztec stories.

The mother of the Aztec creation story was called Coatlique (the Lady of the Skirt of Snakes). She was created in the image of the unknown, decorated with skulls, snakes, and lacerated hands. There are no cracks in her body and she is a perfect monolith (a totality of intensity and self-containment, yet her features were square and decapitated).

Coatlique was first impregnated by an obsidian knife and gave birth to Coyolxanuhqui, goddess of the moon, and to a group of male offspring, who became the stars. Then one day Coatlique found a ball of feathers, which she tucked into her bosom. When she looked for it later, it was gone, at which time she realized that she was again pregnant. Her children, the moon and stars did not believe her story. Ashamed of their mother, they resolved to kill her. A goddess could only give birth once, to the original litter of divinity and no more. During the time that they were plotting her demise, Coatlique gave birth to the fiery god of war, Huitzilopochtli. With the help of a fire serpent, he destroyed his brothers and sister, murdering them in a rage. He beheaded Coyolxauhqui and threw her body into a deep gorge in a mountain, where it lies dismembered forever. The natural cosmos of the Indians was born of catastrophe. The heavens literally crumbled to pieces. The earth mother fell and was fertilized, while her children were torn apart by fratricide and then scattered and disjointed throughout the universe

Professor? Do they teach that the ancient Egyptians were Christians at Georgetown? They were you know. And they are the seed of today's Christianity. Gospel Jesus is fictional but based upon the life of Amenophis IV, the "Amen faithful and true." Amen "chased the money changers from the temple of God" but they didn't stay out.

http://www.hoax-buster.org for the rest of the story.

You're all going to hell. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul You all faith the the being Moses made the deal with, Devil, not God.

Jihadist, where do suicide attackers that kill a few Jews and themselves at the same time go? Where do the Jews they kill go? How about Canyon? Who's going to heaven and who's going to hell? Make enough guesses and you're bound to get one right.

One man's hell is another man's heaven.
Superstition trumps common sense.

I liked what you said, that you are not going to "trump" God. That is a very fitting and appropriate word to use. I am going to remember it, and use it ALOT, in the futuer.
Thanks

Prof. Gillis,

You started your essay saying "I do not know if heaven and hell exist, but I believe they do."

Excuse me?

How I long for the conviction and certainty of Canyon Shearer who informed me I will go to hell for the seperation from and/or denial by me of God as he believe in.