'Being' good and 'doing' good

It is interesting that in the Epistle to the Romans Paul spends the greatest energy at the beginning convincing the readers (mostly Christians or Jews at the time it was written) that they too were 'not good'. Colson refers to part of that argument in chapter 1 where Paul states that the idea of right and wrong is known by people, whether through law or through nature. We're all basically excuse-less.

He addresses those who might smugly think they are better because they know the Law (Torah) by proving to them that even if they knew it, they don't keep it. (the same thing several have said in these comments). He concludes that "all are under sin" together. (3:10).

Though Christianity, Judaism and the Bible all are immense sources of instruction about what is good, evil, right and wrong, Paul moves past that to his point that all people fail. The message of the good news, he continues, is that God knows this, and sent His own atonement for our failed "human-ness." That atonement was a sacrificial Lamb - Christ.

Love it, hate it, laugh at it or glory in it, that is what Christianity is really about - the cross. Without that, Paul argues, we all are as lost as each other. With it, the worst of us, in prison or deep in despair, have the same power and hope.

That is what I have seen literally transform hundreds of lives.

Alan,

"Even if I did - we are all sinners Bro!"

Well at least we are all fellow humans and brothers in some way.

May you hae a joyous and peaceful life.

:-)

Comp:
I'd have to take the typo log out of my own eye in order to see well enough to take the typo speck out of yours! Haven't been able to do that yet ! Even if I did - we are all sinners Bro! :-)

Alan,

OK, so today was typoville.

I hope they did not prevent my point form getting across.

Alanneason,

I've read Muggeridge.

His arguements, though seemingly well thoght out are lacking.

I have never said that atheists do not have doubts. Almost every Atheist I know (including myself) willing admits that we cannot be 100% sure that thre is no god (or other deities since the Abrahamic one is far from being the only one out there). And ALL of us have said that IF thre was ever irrefutable proof that a deity exists outside of the human imagination that we would accept siad proof. But there has been no such proof. I have read hundreds of so-called proofs (some of them while I was still a believing and practicing Jew and Judiac teacher). The simple fact is that none of them are conclusive and ALL of them require a leap of faith or serious (and intellectually unacceptable) suspension of disbelief in order to be accepted.

I have never said that faith is not a nice thing or that a belief in a deity does nto serve a useful purpose for some people. But to say that said belief is enough for everyone is not valid.

I hae always told friends and acquaintances who do believe in deity (not all my friends and acquaintances are Abrahamists, some are polytheists, pantheists, and believers in other deities) that if their belive inspires them to treat their fellow and the planet well and also provides them with comfort, peace and happiness, that they should not stop believing. Luckily the majority of them understand that a belief in deity is not required to be good, or do good.

And I always wish them a holiday specific greeting (Merry Christmas, Happy Hanuka, Blessed Solstice, etc.) when I see them during their Holidays. And they wish me a Happy New Year, Joyful Solstice (since that is not just a religious time) and the like depending on the season.

mikedvirgilio,

"of course, we are the only ones that have to prove anything."
Glad you finally understand the facts.

"Maybe I'll talk to the wall. I'm sure it would be more responsive. "

I have been responsive. But a wall might be more your speed.

There is a great PDF document you can view of Malcom Muggeridge in an interview with William F. Buckley on the subject "How Does One Find Faith?" at www.malcolmmuggeridge.org/pr/faith.pdf

Muggeridge, himself an agnostic and very secular in early life, came to faith in Christ in later years after much thought and consideration. His intellectual power was (and remains, in his writings) immense.

A quote from the interview: "The only people I've ever met in this world who never doubt are the materialists and atheists...I think that they have a sort of ludicrous certainty that there is nothing transcendental to know, you see. But for me, at any rate, doubt has been an integral part of coming to faith..."

I recommend reading the entire piece. It is short and very profound. It centers on a central dilemma of our times - 'How can one know something' - and how beyond that, how can one move beyond the 'cul-de-sac' of their own mind. Muggeridge was a very open-minded man all his life, even as an agnostic. Slow to come to many observations, he was dogged in reporting what he saw when he finally saw it. Great reading. Also try his "Third Testament"

compchiro, of course, we are the only ones that have to prove anything. Maybe I'll talk to the wall. I'm sure it would be more responsive.

MikeDVirgilio,

"Wow, the ignorance of secular fanatics is breathtaking. What Colson is describing is basic Christian theology, which has been around for oh, about 2000 years."

Just because he is stating it does not make it any less intolerant or hatemongering.

"You may hate it, hate the bible,"
No hate for it, just no use for it.

"hate the God you don't believe in,"
Can't hate that which does not exist.

"hate Christians,"
Don't hate Christians. Just have contempt for ones like Colson. BTW, What Colson staes is NOT what EVERY Christian believes.

"hate Christian ethics,"
The ethics that Christians lay claim to are not thiers alone. And none of those ethics REQUIRE a deity.

"I've always marveled at how defensive and surely many atheists can be."
It is you jguys who are bieng defensive. WE are just pointing out that Colson and his views (that unless one belives in a deity that one cannot "be good") are obnoxious and garbage.

"Any atheist who has a modicum of intelligence knows that their worldview is an unprovable belief system."

That is a falsehood. All that we believe is that there is no proof of the existance of god. Since the burden of proof rests with existance it is your view that has failed to meet that burden.

"Science and sweet reason no more confirm atheism than they disprove God's existence."
Since atheism does NOT need to be proven (since the burden of proof rests on those who claim that god exists and there has been no such proof) science and reason would reqiure that non-existance is the default position.

"The atheist of good faith nows we're all in this boat together, that we all take what evidence the world provides and interpret it the best we now how. "

That makes no sense whatsoever. No one ever said that were are not in this together. We just recognize that god is not reqiured for us to do so.

Wow, the ignorance of secular fanatics is breathtaking. What Colson is describing is basic Christian theology, which has been around for oh, about 2000 years. You may hate it, hate the bible, hate the God you don't believe in, hate Christians, hate Christian ethics, hate it all, but it is what it is. I've always marveled at how defensive and surely many atheists can be. Or maybe more accurately it is secularists who happen to be atheists.

Any atheist who has a modicum of intelligence knows that their worldview is an unprovable belief system. Science and sweet reason no more confirm atheism than they disprove God's existence. The atheist of good faith knows we're all in this boat together, that we all take what evidence the world provides and interpret it the best we now how.

The secularist fanatic admits no such thing. Religion is evil. Religious people are stupid. End of story.

Alan Neason,

"I have seen genuine Christianity transform people and I have seen atheism transform people.
The former are evidence that there is something real - supernatural there."
Actually it is not proof of any such thing. It is proof that the human mind is a powerful thing and that IF one really wants to create god in one's mind (while deluding oneself into beliving that it is outside one's mind) that one can sometimes do amazing things.

"The latter are evidence that people can be convinced they are smarter - and still become mere shadows of the people they once were."

Not be smaarter. Just have a better understnading of what qualifies as valid proof. And every person that I know that has become an Atheist (and that is several hundred) is a far better, and more humane person than they were before they became atheists.

"To many in secular America today, there is no hope for anyone who loses their way."
That is a crock. Most of Secular America acknowledges that one can learn and better oneself. Colson may have done so, but his words tend to prove that he has just become another fool.

"Mercilessness is one of the hallmarks of an atheistic mindset."
Actually I have seen far more mercy from Atheists than from theists.

"At least it was in the USSR the many times I was there.That was the most official atheistic nation I have spent much time in - back in the day. "

The USSR was in no way a truly Atheist nation. Just because they claimed it did not make it so. As with most "communist countires" they forced people to effectively worship the state and at times the leader (Look at how Mao, Stalin and the two Kim's are put forth.) They have factually deified both stae and leadership and therefore are THEISTIC nations (even if they claimed otherwise.)I have mentioned this concept to several dozen well-regarded theologians, philosophy professors and political science professors and ALL of then agreed that in practice those countries created state religions . Just because one does not believe in the Abrahamic deities does not make one atheist.

Even Jesus said, "You shall know them by their fruit." He was a pragmatist. I have seen genuine Christianity transform people and I have seen atheism transform people.

The former are evidence that there is something real - supernatural there. The latter are evidence that people can be convinced they are smarter - and still become mere shadows of the people they once were. Like Dostoevsky's Ivan - they come abruptly up against the prison wall of the human mind left to itself alone.

Chuck Colson admits he was very misguided in his White House years and lost his way. He turned to God for help. He got it. He was transformed into a completely different person.

To many in secular America today, there is no hope for anyone who loses their way. "Throw them into prison and throw away the key!" Mercilessness is one of the hallmarks of an atheistic mindset. At least it was in the USSR the many times I was there. (It seems to be a hallmark in these comments as well). That was the most official atheistic nation I have spent much time in - back in the day.

Chuck went to prison. But prison did not transform him. he was already transformed by a genuine Christianity. Since that day, he has been hard at work transforming prisoners - and tens of thousands are living incredibly richer lives no, both within and outside the walls.

I thank all gods that they have given me the brains to understand that the concept of god is a man-made, rather primitive and desperate idea for lack of knowledge.

It is the present human condition in this phase of evolution that large swaths of humans want to be "secure" rather than curious or innovative. This phase, hopefully, will pass. If security, certainty cannot be found, they replace it with "faith", believing in early cultural superstition systems. A rather ridiculous notion eschewing any sense of reality.

How typically arrogant and delusional of Colson and his Huckabees to brand anyone not "Christian" as a "non-believer"

"non-believers" of what?

- pedophile priests?

- neocon pre-emptive war and torture for oil and Israel?

- education and health care are socialism?

- theocracy?

- a grumpy old white man with a beard in the sky who fries his babies in eternal hell?

- homophobia, racism, hate and exclusion?

I'll pass on Colson's twisted definition of a "believer"

This is even dumber than Bill Donohue's rant about how gay people are gross. Who thought this was an interesting topic? Did a real person write a letter asking a religious person if atheists can be good? This is inane garbage, and I would be offended if this guy were speaking for me. Why is someone a better person if they rely on what they read in a book rather than on what they can conceive in their own mind?

Jesus is the answer. Ridiculous.

Unbelievable. A convicted felon is taking me to task about my ability to do what's right in this world. This is a new low.

So you're saying, basically, Chuck, that, "Even if non-Christians do all kinds of good, and do no wrong, they're really bad."

Illuminating.

counterww

"Jesus has the standing, you just don't want to have anyone else run your life."
He may have the standing for YOU but he does not have the standing for everyone. Dead men can't help people run anything.

" This is really the crux of the foolish atheistic mindset. "
Not at all. Even Jews, who believe in god, know that Jesus had no standing to do anything.

"Assuming this box we live in- the cosmos- is all there is, is the first mistake you make."
Since there is no proof that there is anything else it is not a mistake to make that assertion.

"Sin is affront to God almighty."
Since there is no god then that argument is invalid.

"The only person that can ultimately forgive sin so that you have oneness with God is ... God... through Christ's redemption on the cross."

YAWWNN! Typical garbage.

"You don't even try to understand Christ or Christianity due to your own elite attitude towards life itself. "

Actually I have studied Jesus (he was not a christ) and Christianity (along with many other religions quite a bit. I was a believing practicing Jew for most of my life. I finally realized that god and religon are man0made stuff of not inherent universal value. They may have vaue to those who choose to adhere believe inthem but they are not required.

"In the end, your knee will bow to Christ... question is... will be forced to bow or will you realize to bow your knee now when it is your choice to do so."

What a load of garbage.

"Atheists understand basic ethics?"
Yes.

"Like Stalin? Or Mao?"
Since both of them created nations that REQUIRED that both the state and leadership be worshipped as effective deities(at pain of death or torture) they are not atheist. They created their own religons and deities. And to say that those who believe in god all have ethics ignores Hitler and the Inquisition.

"Look at any country that has taken Christianity out of its society completely, and what do you have?"
Civilization.

compchiro-

Typical atheistic garbage.

Jesus has the standing, you just don't want to have anyone else run your life. This is really the crux of the foolish atheistic mindset.

Assuming this box we live in- the cosmos- is all there is, is the first mistake you make. The 2nd you make is that sin is a affront against society. Sin is affront to God almighty. When people delve into it too deeply, they affect society in a negative way. The only person that can ultimately forgive sin so that you have oneness with God is ... God... through Christ's redemption on the cross.

You don't even try to understand Christ or Christianity due to your own elite attitude towards life itself.

In the end, your knee will bow to Christ... question is... will be forced to bow or will you realize to bow your knee now when it is your choice to do so.

Atheists understand basic ethics? Like Stalin? Or Mao? Really? Look at any country that has taken Christianity out of its society completely, and what do you have?

First by quoting scripture, it clearly contradicts what hes saying specifically that atheists could do good.

When he say they do good things in spite of themselves it would imply that they were infact bad. Giving a supernatural motive to doing good is kinda condescending to an atheist.

Believe me there is nothing in my heart looking for "God's truth". Sides i prefer "the truth" over "God's"

How is it that nonbelievers have a harder time acting morally (implied by Colson) than believers, when the US the most religous 1st world nation, is the most crimeridden. When the population of Atheists in prision is much smaller than their percentage outside of there?

Why is Christianities God #2 the only path to goodness?

True believers in a sky god, like Mr. Colson, have caused more death and destruction throughout history than anyone else. Thanks Chuck.

Plasma,

OK, in quoting the Bible, you say it's "much ruder" than what Colson said -- what is it, exactly, that you disagree with Colson about?

So according to Chuck atheists do good in spite of themselves, i.e. they do good by accident and not by intent.

From reading your comments, it looks most of you made your believes into religion. When you do, you are hurting each other. Use following spiritual minder to help to understand belief, faith, religion and the difference between them.

Universal Spiritual Reminder #1:
Whether you are an atheist, Buddhist, Catholic, Islamic, Jewish, or a person of any other faith, we all have believes and faith, but please do not make your faith into a religion. Religion is created when a person or a group of people taking believes as the absolute truth. The more religious a person becomes, the more willing the person is to hurt/sacrifice self, others, or both while carrying out his/her religion.

Believe: A conclusion from using a set of experience similar to the subject matter that contains derailing factor from the realm of unknown.
Faith: Out all sets of believes in a person’s mind, the used set as toolrules (rules, tools, or both) to conduct the person’s life.
Religion: The faith that a person taken as the absolute truth.

Apparently god was taking time off during the Watergate era.

Publ1us

"And none of us really are good in our own right......Left to ourselves, we are all self-centered and corrupt"

Speak for yourself. You have no standing, knowledge or ability to speak for others.

Hear, hear, Mr. Colson! And none of us really are good in our own right. As Hamlet says to Ophelia, "I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offences at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in."

Left to ourselves, we are all self-centered and corrupt.

counterww,

"Due to the grace of God the father, we all have the capacity to do good and most of us so in some capacity in their lives."

Not at all. Due to human intelligence and ethics we have the capacity to do good. Since there is no god outside of the imaginations of belivers said entity has not influence on the world as a a whole.

"They simply have relationship with Christ that grants them forgiveness for sins and they also can tap into power for goodness at a level -potentially- that others perhaps can't."

Assuming that there really is sin (which I reject) Jesus could not grant them forgiveness even if he were still alive. Only society can grant forgiveness for actions committed against it. And there are no "sins" against god, since said entity does not exist in the outside world. And given Christinaty's track record for evil and torure I would posit that, historically at least, Jesus' followers (there is no such thing as a "christ" since there is no real savior, as if humanity needs saving) they rarely tapped into the power of "goodness".

"You can only do this by giving up self, and only Christ can run your life to give the capacity to do so fully."
To truly do good one never gives oneself up. One recognizes one's equal place in society. And Jesus has no standing to run anyone's life.

"Only God is superior."

Then nothing is superior as there is no god.

Fortunately for the world, science has successfully undermined the simpleminded religions - the Abrahamic cults, mainly Christianity and Islam.

Christianity and Islam have had a good 2000 year run preying on ignorance and the ignorant. This ended for Christianity in Europe with the development of science. It is now looking for the ignorant and uneducated in Africa and South America.

Islam - a strange combination of ignorance and intolerance - has been picking the lowest lying fruit for a 1000 years as apparent in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Now is the time for science, logic, and deeper & truer spirituality - not supremacist, intolerant cults like Christianity and Islam that proselytize and force their views on others. This results in conflict, violence, and suffering.

Now is the time for Vedanta & Hinduism. After 1000 years of anti-Hindu propaganda, many are not prepared to hear the wisdom or absorb the deep & complex monistic philosophy which is consistent with science. Now is a good time to start; at least some will benefit.

A new age of rational spirituality is again arriving, and Hinduism and Vedanta will lead the way again.

Dear cross2bear i hate to be the atheistic biblical expert but he isnt saying what the bible says, the bible says a much ruder thing.

salm 14:1-3 The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none that does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there are any that act wisely, that seek after God. They have all gone astray, they are all alike corrupt; there is none that does good, no, not one.

Colson has it right.

Due to the grace of God the father, we all have the capacity to do good and most of us so in some capacity in their lives. Helping a widow, giving to the poor, voluntering for a charitable organization,sending money to a third world family, building a house for poor people, etc etc.

As usual, DILD, he never said that Christians are superior. They simply have relationship with Christ that grants them forgiveness for sins and they also can tap into power for goodness at a level -potentially- that others perhaps can't. You can only do this by giving up self, and only Christ can run your life to give the capacity to do so fully. Only God is superior.

Chuck Colson, as usual, is an ignorant fool.

"Atheists do some wonderfully noble things; but they do so in spite of themselves and because of the common grace of God"

That is garbage. Atheists do good because they understand general human ethics and realize that deity is not needed for consistent "good" actions.

"but it is a far harder task than it is for a believer who has the empowerment of the Holy Spirit."

Bull. It is far easier for non-believers because they do not need the added luggage of needing to please some fantasy deity. They simply follow common sense to do good, versus man-made religious texts.

The rest of his post is typical mindless Colson religious garbage. OK for fools but even intelligent believers know to ignore him.

Neither Plasma nor Dan appear to "get" what Colson is saying. Why don't you each cite a specific thing he says to demonstrate your point, and I'll explain to you how you've misunderstood him.

So as an atheist i do good things but am not good? Wow and i thought i was condescending.

cross2bear

If you think that the Bible says you are better than everybody else, then, why be bent out of shape when someone calls it what it is: snobbishness?

Chuck Colson isn't being a snob -- he's telling you what the Bible says, because he believes it is truth. So do I. Dan, do you know Chuck? I didn't think so. We're being just a little judgmental, aren't we?

I think that this guy is a little bit of a snob, mistakenly believing that Christians are superior to everyone else, and also mistakenly belieiving that his narrow sect of belief speaks for all Christians.

I do not believe that Jesus ever taught that Christians are superior to non-Christians. Actually, he taught the opposite.

I think that this Colsen man has very little credibility on who is superior to whom; certainly, he is superior to few.

All who claim that "GOOD" is defined by a God which/who is infinitely good, conveniently forget the non-human caused horrors perpetrated by nature each and every day, which must, by definition, be "good" if they emanate from or are acquiesced in by him.

Thus cancer is "good"; earthquakes and tsunamis are "good", birth defects are "good"; ergo, all attempts by physicians, EMTs, scientists and others to ameliorate the grotesque horrors of the human condition that result from natural causes or other "acts of God" are at the very least without moral value and may even be defined as evil, since such acts are designed to thwart God's perfect "good".

So if a person does good without the will of god s/he is doing good but is not good. On the other hand, if a person does good at the will of god, than that person is good.

In effect, with personal agency you get credit for good actions but don't get to be called good. If a person gives up personal agency then they are good. So this morality is based on denying personal responsibility. Now that's a special morality.

I agree with the construct that egoless action is good (or at least protects us from misunderstanding our actions). But to state someone is not good unless you call god by the right name is a bit nonsensical. I believe in a god that is transcendent to this reality and immanent in it. There is no outside of god. As such to declare something as BEING not good is to declare that god has not good parts (and then define what a part of god is if you can). That's not the God I worship.

hariaum