President's Statements Too Simplistic

The sentence in my post regarding the use of the "third person plural" in the Koran should read:
"first person plural" (we).

Please excuse the error and refrain from stoning me to death.

As a Christian, I naturally think "they" in my interpretation of "we" while reading this Islamic text.

It matters not that Obama says "We are not at war with Islam and that we never will be" because Islam is at war with us. And it always will be, fundamentally speaking

Here is an excerpt from the chapter called Repentance in the Qur' an:

" The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the Son of Allah. ....Allah's curse be on them. how they are deluded away from the Truth! (suras 30)"

And from the chapter titled "Women":

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four (reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them....(15)"

These verses are not metaphors. They are instructions that are followed daily in Islamic countries. This is what practicing Muslims read, recite, believe, and practice....

In denying that Christ is the son of God,
Muslims proclaim a war against Christians.
In denying the possibility of a Jewish Messiah, Muslims proclaim a war against Judaism.

In mandating a life prison sentence or death for women who commit lewd acts, or those who refulse to submit or conform to Islamic standards of sexual behavior, Muslims deny women equal status with men, and punish all who exercise sexual freedom. This is completely at odds with the American and European laws and values of equality, forgiveness, and freedom.

The greatest contradiction of Islam lies in its premise that Islam is monotheistic when the Qur' an repeatededly uses the third person plural (we) to define and describe the Creator and the punishments that the body of Islam intends to inflict on unbelievers. What this seems to suggest is that the movement that began as a religious resistance to the forcing of Christianity and Judaism on a pagan people, on a highly developed Persian empire and Arab culture with monotheistic claims, evolved into a political power that still maintains an authoritarian rule as cruel and repressive as anything in the Judeo-Christian culture it meant to oppose.

Chuck Colson's simplistic slogans certainly do "do a disservice to the genius of our founders and to 233 years of history and tradition." Obama's more open approach does not.

Numerous Muslim sources, both inside and outside the US, have consistently denounced terrorism and have tried to clarify the Muslim traditions in this matter. The US press has generally failed to report mainstream or moderate views, preferring to stress the views of extremist demagogues.

Unfortunately, extremist demagogues of all stripes and all religions are happy to accept the opportunities for publicity.

hi chuck, perhaps the proper honest look at the big picture is just what the world needs... put actions and inactions in context with history and fact in reality and colonialism and robber barons and Russian oh-glee-a-garks, and Chinese state sponsored agendas or ours for that matter, and oh by the way every one in the world ..it would be interesting to see the absolute truth of everyones conduct and more important thier honest reasons for thier actions and inactions.. then maybe every one would understand and could very easily fix the mess immediately. when all you have is smoke and mirrors you can't expect progress and here i am not.. talking about the obama administration,i'm still observing thier actions and inactions, it's possibly a group effort to keep everything all messed up.. i think you start with undeniable bits of truth and keep stacking them till the liars cheats and thieves of the world fall of thier own weight maybe. the important part in any endeavor is getting it right. but i'm just a stupid dyslexic hillbilly artist of no account so far

*laugh* *Now* he's worried about nuance? :)

Actually, it's about darn time we had a President who *can* stop treating terrorists as the de facto 'government' of all Islam.

Why, he can even complete a sentence about that part of the world without referring to terrorists. What's the world coming to?

The world is not a playground for right-wing Christians and right-wing Muslims to fight over, maybe call themselves 'entitled to.' People are trying to live here, you know.

Frankly, the best way to put a damper on fundamentalism and terrorism is to actually show how *irrelevant* it is to actually solving any of the world's pressing problems.

Chuck Colson mentions 233 years of our history but does not categorically deny that America is a Christian nation. Here is a refresher course for him:

American political culture has always had a bipolar personality, at once tolerant and intolerant, inclusive and exclusionary. Anti-immigrant bigotry and religious intolerance have a long history in our country. Puritans hanged Quakers in Boston Common, signs proclaimed, "No Irish need apply," and laws prohibited Chinese immigrants from becoming citizens.

Benjamin Franklin expressed concern over foreign immigration in 1751. He feared the influx of German-speaking immigrants, who he said were not as white as the English. Franklin asked, "Why should Pennsylvania, founded by the English, become a Colony of Aliens, who will shortly be so numerous as to Germanize us instead of our Anglifying them, and will never adopt our Language or Customs, any more than they can acquire our Complexion."

The American Revolutionary leader Samuel Adams expressed the virulent anti-Catholic sentiment that was shared by many Americans at the time. In "The Rights of Colonists," a proclamation that was adopted by the town of Boston on Nov. 20, 1772, Adams wrote "that there shall be liberty of conscience allowed in the worship of God, to all Christians except Papists."

Catholics, or "Papists," could not be afforded religious tolerance, Adams said, because their allegiance to the pope meant that they "teach Doctrines subversive of the Civil Government under which they live." The fear and antipathy toward Catholicism among many Americans in the 18th and 19th centuries was as deeply felt as is the fear of Islam today.

The best antidote to religious intolerance, then or now, can be found in the words of Thomas Jefferson. In his "Notes on Virginia" in 1785, Jefferson said that alternative religious beliefs are not "injurious to others" and should not be restricted by government. "It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
At Philadelphia in 1787, Jefferson's understanding of religious tolerance won out. Most important, according to Article VI, "no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

New definition of chutzpah: Chuck Colson calling someone's thinking simplistic

AMviennaVA,
Well those are quite harsh words for the former President. I'm sure any rational person knows that Bush didn't lie about everything. An example might be a good start if you want to say someone is lying.

I have my problems with Bush and his policies, as well as Obama, and Clinton and every other president. It is fine to disagree with someone and show his flaws. That is part of being president, but I don't appreciate anyone disowning our president. This is really not a knock against the president but against the government, the country, and all voters who voted for or against him. There is always disagreement in a republic but we must respect those who govern, albeit imperfectly.

I also think Bush's strong push for protecting our country against terrorism is a strong suit of his. I still can't believe the US has avoided attack, while granting freedom to it's residents for almost 8 years. Bush surely deserves much of his credit.

Mr. Colson never felt the need to weigh in on Bush's simplistic statements, half of which probably set some sort of record for gibberish.

Goofy comments by Mr. Colson. IMHO these comments are a non-sequiter. Funny how he feels the need to take issue with Prez Obama at every opportunity. Mr. Colson's comments in no way contradict what Prez Obama said, they just add nuance from one perspective.

How does Obama's statement "imperil our freedom?" This is more apocolyptic nonsense from the extreme right.

With the sad rise of George Bush I'm convinced that Republicans are very simple people...everything is black and white. Anyone who disagrees with them is an enemy, to be crushed by whatever means. Under Obama I hope for a return to the separation of church and state. Bush et al have done much to advance the cause of radical Islam.

Belief in God and the Devil as forces for good and evil respectively is just a cop out. People such as yourself always place themselves on the side of God, allowing them to view the world with a dangerous, hypocritical myopia. Evil exists everywhere including god-fearing administrations like that of Nixon and Bush. There is no Devil, he is Man.

I found Mr. Colson's point extremely risible. Specially, after we all have gone through 8 years of the Presidency of a man who was well known to mumble so much, and speak way before his brain was properly engage to do so.

For a people or people to make fantabulous claims of Christendom. When all thru their history Violence has been an endemic trait.
That if properly recorded could fill entire volumes bigger than 25 Britannicas.

Not including of course other endemic problems like sexual immorality, theft, addictions of all types, bigotry, foul and blasphemous language in the daily conversations. Which in some cases have been recorded as Mr. Colson Im sure is well aware of.

With all due respect. Simplistic is trying to throw a blanket over a country, a people and a Nation and pretend that is to baptize them into Christianity. There is nothing in Scripture that I can remember that induces me, or point to becoming an accomplice of a Sub-standard Greco-Roman culture. By the same token there is nothing in Scriptures that support the same to be part of Christendom.

kert1: Since Bush lied about everything he spoke about, and since actions speak louder than words, it is obvious that we need to divorce ourselves from Bush. The action that will make that clearest is not to just talk about it, but to bring Bush to justice over torture, starting a war under false pretenses, trampling on the Constitution, etc.

The least that we, out of government, can do is to stop using Bush as a reference for anything other than incompetence and disgrace.

President Bush was clear as he said the United States doesn't torture and yes made it clear the differnces in Islam and Christians. But let's look at the truth and the liar. We do Torture and we even torture woman and children. We murder as we did as Christians when we bombed Iraq killed 151,000 innocent people as they slept in their beds. Our Pasters preach the word of God while committing sin. Our Law Makers use God's Name while hiring prostitutes, looking for sex in men's rooms and even Foley who molest kids. Sarah Palin preaches God while see let's her teenage daughter have sex with her boyfriend in her house. What is wrong with Christians to say anything about Islam. Today Afghanistan wants to rule over woman, while woman like Hillary are attacked by the Media and even her child is attacked. Look in the mirror before talking about Islam you'll see we have a lot in common. Everyone using one God while working for Satan. Israel held the Palestine ( Shoah ) Holocaust using God's Name to murder thousands then they lied about it. Please first read the bible and stop letting people tell you what it says. God see everything and we will pay for our sins.

Gaby,
I don't really understand the correlation between your statement and mine but you do bring up a good point.

I would definitely say that someone will say that America is strongarming again. Someone always does. While I’m not sure the context of your statement, I assume it has to do with our War on Terror or whatever you want to call it. Do you think some are mad at Obama for authorizing the killing of those pirates this week (by the way, good job Obama)? I’m sure some are mad.

My personal conviction is that we need to be much less concerned about what the rest of the world thinks and be concerned about what is best for the USA. While I do think there is a place for things like the UN and good foreign relations, we need to understand their limits. Not everyone is always going to agree with us. We can still acknowledge the differences and do what is best.

On Sept 11, 2001 I had an evening college class (not sure why it wasn’t cancelled). We had a German professor and his comment has always fascinated me. He said whatever the US does; it will be the right thing. Oddly, this didn’t seem like a complement from him. I think this really shows the perception that the rest of the world has of us. No other nation does so much to try to get support for its decision. If you look at our “controversial” war in Iraq, we had overwhelming support in congress and the American people in general. We had support of over 30 nations and even those not supporting us agreed what we were doing was good.

I would say that when we receive criticism, we should always evaluate it as we do. But we can’t please everyone. Ultimately our government has a responsibility to do what they feel is best for the American people, even when unpopular. I ultimately think this characteristic is one of the most important in any leader.

Gladerunner,
You seem to be trying to disagree with Mr. Colson but most of what you said is the same thing. We all know that this country wasn't founded to promote someone's personal belief system, but to allow people to make their own choices. In such a system, they believed that true religion would flourish.

I don't believe that the religious confictions of our founders can be ignored, if you want to understand the principles we used to found this nation. From the beginning, this nation was started by groups (Pilgrims, Puritians, etc.) seeking religious freedom they couldn't receive in Europe. While they couldn't acheive perfect unity in America they did realize that wasn't necessary.

The idea of freedom to choose religion has a lot of backing in Christian faith. Since God has not forced us to follow him, we shouldn't force others to follow God. It should be a choice and their religion should be based on their convictions, not the governments. Most of these founders were Christians as you point out, but others were Atheists, Agnostics, and Jews. It turned out to work well for all people involved. I think it is a shame to not understand where these beliefs came from.

I would also recommend you read the Declaration of Independence (actually you probably already have). This is the first of the documents that form the foundation of our Country and clearly shows the belief of our founders that our Creator has given us our freedoms. While I totally agree this country was founded "By the People", the founders didn't just creae their own laws. They created laws that they believe came from the creator. I believe these things are important to know, even though we are not a "Christian Government" as some might say.

KERT1:

You say we need to be clear about what we will do.

Another person may say America is strongarming again.

"To forget this fact -- or worse, deny it -- is to imperil our freedom. "

How so?

Did Moses or Jesus invent freedom of the press, the right to bear arms, the right to a fair trial, makeup of congress and senate?

We as a nation created the constitution that defines our nation stating that this nation is of, by, and for the PEOPLE. We declared and ordained our own freedom. That some/many of the founders of this nation had knowledge and roots in Christianity is virtually irrelevent. They were also all white and all men. Does this mean that the constitution was written for white men only? Does this mean we are a 'white nation', a 'male nation'?
No. the founders created this nation to allow it to transcend their own personal belief systems and experiences, not to be limited to them.

Obama's comments really don't give me much comfort. While it is true we are not at war with Islam, this is just an obvious statement. He should have pointed out that we are against radical Islam and their practices of stiffling freedom and creating terrorism and we will use military force if neccessary to protect ourselves.

You could take from this statement that we are giving up. We need to remember that this isn't over and we will need to continue to have resolve as we fight our enemies. I wonder if a statement like this could encourage our enemies. I hope not.

I remember Bush being much more clear about who our enemy was and being clear about what we will do. We need to continue to be clear that we will stand tall on the freedoms that the US stands for.