The Nation Should Give Thanks

abhab:

"Thanksgiving 2008:"
Nice post and yeah for the discriptives. Good writing. Got me all patriotic.
It is a great country and we are blessed to be living in it, those of us that do. Those that don't either love us or hate us, but invariably would love to live with the abundance of life that we have.
You are right to say that those blessings are not only material.
Those things of value are not only christian, thogh, abhab. Not only are there far more religious traditions that have made deep and lasting impacts on the color of america than simply christianity, but the form of government has given all americans a fertile ground to grow in.
That form of government cannot be attributed to christianity. Europesan christians that came here for refuge from persecution, (or from fleeing those they persecuted against), did not bring it with them. They all came from monarchies. With ideas for freedom but without a democratic model.
Founders took much of the model from the cherokee and iriquois confederacy.
That is while your christians were decimating these infidels.
Your quote:
"Those values are derived from its Christian ethics of justice, tolerance and the respect for human dignity."
Did not help the ancestors of the Trail of Tears.

Your view of America is far more optimistic than mine. I think that we have decended in our luxury and self-aggrandizement to a new low in the world. A bit like old rome, sending our liberating armies around the globe. I am not like you:
"While most other countries are increasing only in population numbers , poverty and misery, enterprising America is actively engaged in increasing its knowledge and harnessing it for the improvement of the quality of life for all humanity.
"God blessed America and made it the only superpower because America is good."

I share however your hope for americas blessing by God, and I hope that more americans reinvest themselves in what is good and valuable about america and being americans. Whether it is from a christian framework or a pagan one. Good is good. I appreciate the vote for values. Even christian ones. Thanks.

The earth didn't make the roses nor the roses made itself. Even man can't understand how roses are made from scratch.

The wise is thankful for the Creator. Who will the unbelievers thank? The earth? The sand?

Please stop the stupidity. It won't go unpunished.

I think Spidey's the one who one'd wonder what he has to be thankful for.

He knows no joy except in seeing others hurt,
Sees no thankfulness except in claiming no one else can be,
And had no life beyond wishing most of the world dead.

Sad.

spidermean2 :
The idiotic unbelievers should not celebrate Thanksgiving. What are they thankful for? For being IDIOTS?

It is a day of celebration for believers only.

Doomsday is coming soon to take all the unbelievers. For them, that is not to be thankful for,is it?

Unscathed from doomsday would be another great reason for true believers to be thankful.
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Spidey, you forgot your meds again, didn't you?

At my house, we give thanks not only FOR the meal, but TO the animals and plants whose bodies make up the meal, with the full realization that someday our bodies will provide nourishment for other life forms.
Gratitude does not have to be directed at a supernatural being to be sincere.

Our table grace is a simple, but sincere one, and it suits all the believers (Catholics, Protestants, Pagans, Buddhists) and the non-believers at our table - "We partake of this food with gratitude for all the blessings of heaven and earth, for the efforts of those who have prepared this, and for those with whom we share it." Those who feel so led cross themselves, add their own "Amen," "Blessed be," or whatever other words they use to close prayers.

As for doomsday, it's supposedly been imminent for millenia now, and still hasn't happened, so I'm really not worried about it. And if Paradise is going to be populated with folks with your kind of attitude, it doesn't sound like a very pleasant place to spend eternity anyway.

The idiotic unbelievers should not celebrate Thanksgiving. What are they thankful for? For being IDIOTS?

It is a day of celebration for believers only.

Doomsday is coming soon to take all the unbelievers. For them, that is not to be thankful for,is it?

Unscathed from doomsday would be another great reason for true believers to be thankful.

Well, when everything else fails Chuck, pray.

John Hancock seemed to think that Thanksgiving was a very religious practice. His proclomation favored Christ very heavily. At the same time, he urged to "... put an end to civil and religious invasions on the rights of men..." very interesting indeed. Could he have envisioned churches becoming so politically active ?
He himself implores that "to cause the benign religion of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to be known, understood and practiced among all the inhabitants of earth...".

The Concept of Divine Providence is free game to me. We shall reap what we sow or in this universe, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction, call it karma if you like.

What's missing hear is that we be spared the full impact or consequences of our falliblities as mankind. And so gratitude for sparing us to date, seems to be in order, some 232 years and counting.

abhab writes
'It is hard to believe that in only four centuries the few shivering colonists who had braved the harsh elements of a newly discovered continent grew into over 300 million strong. Their descendents are now the citizens of the greatest and wealthiest country that this planet had ever known'

The puritans who came here weren't wanted in Europe or in the UK. They and their kind were very intolorant of others, were responsible for the first dictatorship England ever knew, not to mention the slaughter of Irish civilians in the name of hatred of the Catholics.

There is something wrong with our nation's leader(s) calling for a National Day of Prayer. Either it means nothing, so it's pointless, or they really mean it, which is abondoning rationality and personal responsibility to whatever they believe 'god' is.
Leave prayer to the churches and to individuals in their homes. I don't need a hypocrite like Bush lording his obviously faithless religion on me or my family.
Heck, and if your life stinks, should you have a day of cursing 'god'?

To all the atheists with the chips on their shoulders-

Presidents have been for DECADES proclaiming giving thanks on this day to GOD .

Better learn to live with the religious heritage of our country. It will never go away, and you will have to live with it.

You all are a bunch of cry babies.

Washington said : "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them. A volume could not trace all their connections with private and public felicity. Let it simply be asked: Where is the security for property, for reputation, for life, if the sense of religious obligation desert the oaths which are the instruments of investigation in courts of justice ? And let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Whatever may be conceded to the influence of refined education on minds of peculiar structure, reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.

It is substantially true that virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government. The rule, indeed, extends with more or less force to every species of free government. Who that is a sincere friend to it can look with indifference upon attempts to shake the foundation of the fabric? "

Thanksgiving 2008:
It is hard to believe that in only four centuries the few shivering colonists who had braved the harsh elements of a newly discovered continent grew into over 300 million strong. Their descendents are now the citizens of the greatest and wealthiest country that this planet had ever known. That calls now for thanksgiving, yet those few courageous pioneering souls offered thanks to the Almighty even then. In fact it is they who started the tradition. If those early colonists felt the need to give thanks to the little they had then, Americans must not be any less enthusiastic about giving thanks to the bounty they have now.
While most other countries are increasing only in population numbers , poverty and misery, enterprising America is actively engaged in increasing its knowledge and harnessing it for the improvement of the quality of life for all humanity. The superficial observer who believes that America’s achievements are only materialistic needs to probe further down toward the core of the values that elevated it from being only rich to further being great. Those values are derived from its Christian ethics of justice, tolerance and the respect for human dignity.
The people of this country are not only prosperous but they are charitable. Many people around the world criticize them for one thing or another, but everybody envies them. While many countries put walls around them to prevent their people from leaving, the United States of America is being forced to put fences around it to prevent outsiders from trampling it. God blessed America and made it the only superpower because America is good. No one sees that more clearly than those who, like me, were raised outside its borders. May she always stay good and may the Almighty always bless her.

Cause, I mean, when it really comes down to it, it seems what we've seen in recent years is that there's a certain number of people claiming to be the only Christians and Americans who just can't have a nice holiday greeting and feel OK about it unless they're sure someone else feels bad.

It's one thing to have a President say, 'Hey, as Americans, let's all give thanks in our own ways' and having him imply that if you aren't a conservative Christian you're neither American nor capable of the sentiment.

That's why it's better for government to stay out of it, these days.

But if the Right would ease up about turning every darn thing into a partisan excuse to marginalize others, I think everyone would feel comfy with some wriggle-room, here.

It's not as if (As a lot of conservative Christians claim) I walk around during 'Christmas season' being any more or less annoyed at the Muzak or appreciative of the pretty lights than anyone.

I put up some lights, myself, sometimes. If you make it about 'You are either part of this society and capitualte to Fundamentalism or you must be a Scrooge' ...then... principles get involved.

Can we have a darn holiday together without *you* making it about your 'Dominion?'

"Surely the atheists can't mind if each of us in our own tradition prays to the God whom they believe isn't there."

It's not about atheists. It's about conservative Christians *using* traditions like this to exclude and alienate others from a sense we're part of the nation, and moreover, convince Christians that they have a right to act like they alone own the joint.

If not for the 'Culture War' it wouldn't likely even be much of an issue.

In a climate where the Religious Right have been *using* these things to divide our nation and slide wedges in to push their agendas, something like the wording of an official prayer takes on a more nefarious tone than it has to.

Ie, when conservative Christians start saying, 'Thanksgiving means and only means praying to *our* God in our way, or you're unamerican,'

Then it becomes a fight for rights.

And stop acting like it's only you vs atheists.

There are others here. Many are Christians.

"There's nothing wrong with simply calling people to prayer, as our earliest settlers did on the holiday we now celebrate as Thanksgiving. "

You ready to keep it simple?

I'm all for that.

Seems someone has put a lot of effort into complicating these things. Making it part of their 'Culture War' on everyone else.

Any more holidays you'd like to turn sour, Reverend?

"Surely the atheists can't mind if each of us in our own tradition prays to the God whom they believe isn't there."

Not at all, I just don't want the government sponsoring it or promoting any particular religion nor religion in general.

"There's nothing wrong with simply calling people to prayer, as our earliest settlers did on the holiday we now celebrate as Thanksgiving."

Yes, there is. It is government promoting religiosity and showing a bias towards it. Our government should remain neutral on religious matters.

"It is suitable and fit for a people to give thanks for what they have."

You have the right to pray all you like, you don't need the government giving you a special day for it.

If you need that, then in the interest of fairness can we have a National Day of No Prayer? There's nothing wrong with not praying, right?

...my vote is with Washington, Lincoln, and numerous presidents ever since who have declared a national day of prayer. Surely the atheists can't mind if each of us in our own tradition prays to the God whom they believe isn't there.

There's nothing wrong with simply calling people to prayer, as our earliest settlers did on the holiday we now celebrate as Thanksgiving.
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Chuckles, no one minds if you pray to your god, whether or not we think he's there. Some of us just happen to think that calling the fatihful to prayer is a job best left to clergy, not politicians.

It is suitable and fit for a people to give thanks for what they have.
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Agreed. I just don't thank the same beings as you.

Gratitude for what we have leads to a sense of duty and responsibility among our most important national virtues.
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For some of us, it leads to sharing what we have with those who don't have as much - I hope that's what you meant.