Faith and Reason -- Compatible and Constitutional

To Scott, who wrote, "If you're familiar with Dante, you'll wonder as I do what level of purgatory these folks will be assigned to."

They'll be lugging some big rocks for a few centuries, in my opinion. Then again, so will I, probably... :)

Where on earth did you get the idea that Huckabee is a right wing idealogue.

Gosh. "Chuck" Colson as an apologist for a right-wing ideologue. Who would have believed it?

Jeff Reed: I appreciated your comment. Hope to see you post again!

nice points mr colson
i have not met you and disagree with most of at least your former politcal views but i have to admire a man who when faced with his own wrongs and shortcomeing chose like myself to try and make a dirreence in the world where we are directed by a God who speaking 4 myself i don't alway understand or clearly sea the path placed 4 me...but eye know 4 a fact that God has the ability to make something great, and good, and useful and decent... out of something that either tragic , sad or misguided (i'm talking my experience here not yours i make no judgements against you here). i find it facinating and edifiying that our country was founded by such a broad variety of larger than life real life experienced people who all had major evident flaws, samuel adams the brawling boozing tavern owner seemed to have been able to contribute his best odf ideals and hopes with cultured educated dandies that that had great moral and philisofical convictions and at the same time owned slaves.. to benjaman franklin the womanizing drinking enthuist who apparently was such the absent minded professor and foolish enough to play with lighning and who apparently felt more at home in France than the new world. but secured the funding 4 the bonne homme richard for our first naval hero john paul jones who himself had a few idiosynchracies, it was also in france wher be besides romping though the bloomers, its where where if you read much of voltaires writing you know we borrow liberly from the french on our constitution and actual ideas of governness. i find it ironic we seem to downplay the french when in reality we stole thier idea they were working up to and simply did without all the talk... why do think the french people gave us the statue of liberty it was in gratitude for showing them ho to actually do what they had thought of aand then they did after us. i think jesus and paul had it right ...jesus said give unto caesar what is caesars ant to God what is Gods and paul who if i read the bible right was a disciple while at the same time xconsidering himself a citizen of Rome ...paul seems to have done okay and up to the last decade so has our great democracy... God please put the warmakers in thier assylems where they belong and let the peacemakers and the meek rule the earth but i'm just a dyslexic artist double check 4 truth if any

Regarding my comment that people should use their real names, Pam wrote:

"Given the subject matter of this forum, and the fact that people who speak out against religions are still sometimes killed for it in today's world, I think you'd find few people posting, if that were a requirement.

As an atheist, I would worry about possible job repercussions, in addition to social ones."

That's a good point. I hadn't considered that issue, I suppose because in my circle such repercussions would be inconceivable.

I suppose a reasonable compromise would be to require an e-mail address but allow a person to withhold the name. As Pam pointed out, this is allowed with letters to the editor.

The assumption that you can change the mind of those who would murder you by allowing them to do so is part and parcel of Mr.Ghandi's problem here.

An update on Ghandi's anti-Jewish commentary -

From today's news:

"Gandhi's grandson quits N.Y. peace center
By Ben Dobbin

Associated Press

ROCHESTER, N.Y. - A grandson of Mohandas Gandhi has resigned from a peace institute after drawing condemnation for saying in an online forum that Israel and Jews "are the biggest players" in a global culture of violence.
Arun Gandhi, the fifth grandson of the revered pacifist, said yesterday the board of the M.K. Gandhi Institute for Nonviolence, based at the University of Rochester, had accepted his offer a day earlier to step down as president.

Gandhi cofounded the institute with his wife, Sunanda.

He was on a panel of scholars, writers and clergy who discuss a new topic weekly on the Washington Post's "On Faith" page and his comments, posted Jan. 7, drew a torrent of criticism.

He wrote that Jewish identity "has been locked into the Holocaust experience - a German burden that the Jews have not been able to shed. It is a very good example of [how] a community can overplay a historic experience to the point that it begins to repulse friends.

"The Holocaust was the result of the warped mind of an individual who was able to influence his followers into doing something dreadful. . . . The world did feel sorry for the episode, but when an individual or a nation refuses to forgive and move on, the regret turns into anger."

Describing Israel as "a nation that believes its survival can only be ensured by weapons and bombs," Gandhi asked whether it would "not be better to befriend those who hate you?"

"We have created a culture of violence (Israel and the Jews are the biggest players) and that Culture of Violence is eventually going to destroy humanity," he added.

Gandhi later apologized "for my poorly worded post," saying he should not have implied that Israeli government policies reflected the views of all Jewish people.

"I do believe that when a people hold on to historic grievances too firmly it can lead to bitterness and the loss of support from those who would be friends," he wrote in a follow-up.

The school declined immediate comment on the controversy, saying the institute's board "is separate from the university."

Spidey: PLEASE submit your material to http://www.landoverbaptist.org/. Your brilliant mind would truly be appreciated there.

Spidey: PLEASE submit your material to http://www.landoverbaptist.org/. Your brilliant mind would truly be appreciated there.

Great comment above, about a Fundie Eliza program. With a little tweaking, it could write TVangelist sermons!

I concur with Colson that faith and reason can, and should, coexist. However, I reject his mumbo-jumbo about hewing to "the original intent of the Constitution".

The Bible says the faithful must not consult necromancers or mediums. Well, that rules out any possibility of Colson being able to ascertain the "original intent of the Constitution" from the original framers -- the only ones qualified to clarify that intent.

So HIS latter-day interpretation of its original intent would be about as enlightening and authoritative as all the simplistic interpretations of scripture that the fundies try to foist upon us. We don't need that brand of religion enshrined anywhere in our political system.

"When people write letters to the editor of a newspaper or magazine, they are required to include their real name and address. I think the same rule should apply here. Plus, I would never write something that I would be unwilling to say to someone in person, or to repeat under oath. People should take responsibility for their words."

Jed, I have to respectfully disagree. Actually, while you *are* required to give your name and address to the paper publishing a letter to the editor, you can request not to have them published.

Given the subject matter of this forum, and the fact that people who speak out against religions are still sometimes killed for it in today's world, I think you'd find few people posting, if that were a requirement.

As an atheist, I would worry about possible job repercussions, in addition to social ones.

While I wouldn't have a problem telling most people my views in a face-to-face situation, and wouldn't hesitate to repeat them under oath, the internet is available to too many people, all over the world. I don't need to let that many people know who I am and the content of my mind.

I wrote the posting by "Anonymous" above, that begins:

"WCD asks:
'Jed and Lepi
Freethinkers.
And we are a better world with views like yours?'
Better for us, worse for you.. . ."

I don't understand why it came out anonymous. This discussion group software is unreliable. It also tends to post the same message repeatedly. The Washington Post webmaster should please fix this.

This is somewhat off topic but . . .

I never post anonymous messages anywhere on the internet. (Except by accident, here!) Frankly, I do not think that a responsible, mature discussion group about a serious subject should allow them. Maybe a fanzine club should, but not a national newspaper. When people write letters to the editor of a newspaper or magazine, they are required to include their real name and address. I think the same rule should apply here. Plus, I would never write something that I would be unwilling to say to someone in person, or to repeat under oath. People should take responsibility for their words.

On another subject, as others have noted "evaporize" is not a word. As a translator I find it annoying when people invent new words for no reason. Scientists do it all the time, and it is a pain in the butt.

WHY THE VATICAN HAS A STAKE IN ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION

The Vatican has for decades promoted excessive immigration in the U.S., both legal and illegal. Vast numbers of immigrants are Catholics intended to increase the Vatican's political influence. Most Hispanics marching in rallies are pawns of a church system that promotes violation of immigration laws.

Spidey and I at least have one thing in common. We both hate humanity with every ounce of our being.

I guess I dwell in Hell then. Can't be any worse than it is here.

Wow... I guess it must be Internet access day in crazy-land. The nutjobs are out in full force!

Spidey - I serve my Gods out of love, not fear.

Some people will never change. They habitually sin without remorse. Outwardly they appear strong and, but inside they are weak and hiding behind a facade.

God sees the heart of a person and what they do in secrete. No one can hide from him:

Psalm 139:7-8, (7) “Whither shall I go from thy spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there, if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.”

Numbers 32:23, “But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the Lord, and be sure your sin will find you out.”

Some people will never change. They habitually sin without remorse. Outwardly they appear strong and, but inside they are weak and hiding behind a facade.

God sees the heart of a person and what they do in secrete, no one can hide from him:

Psalm 139:7-8, (7) “Whither shall I go from thy spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there, if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.”

Numbers 32:23, “But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the Lord, and be sure your sin will find you out.”

Some people will never change. They habitually sin without remorse. Outwardly they appear strong and well respected. But inside they are weak and hiding behind a facade.

God sees the heart of a person and what they do in secrete, no one can hide from him:

Numbers 32:23, “But if ye will not do so, behold, ye have sinned against the Lord, and be sure your sin will find you out.”

Psalm 139:7-8, (7) “Whither I shall I go from thy spirit? Or whither shall I flee from thy presence? (8) If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there, if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.”

Those in the New World Order who are in control of most of the governments of the world already today declare that to become a citizen of this order will require a Luciferian oath.

Accordingly those in the implementation stages proclaim:

"No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation." ---David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations

Amongst all the global governing changes and wars that are taking place to accommodate this New World Order many are overlooking the most dominant aspect of it, its religious and occultic nature.

The New World Order IS about religion. It is about worshipping Lucifer.

Wake up folks!

There is NO candidate FOR the American people. And this is exactly why the Lord has been leading His people to sell off possessions and become more mobile in case they have to leave their homes and go into hiding from the coming persecution and onslaught against His people. Martial law and destruction is coming whether it's Paul or Clinton or whoever or whatever is at the helm of this country.

Don't look for man to save this country or world. Satan comes in 'peace' folks, he comes masquerading as an 'angel of light' (messenger of truth) - a righteous being offering peace and safety to the world.

We already know who wins the war for earth, you can jump to the back of the book of Revelation...until then it's going to be a time of deception, death and destruction, 'such as never was since there was a nation.'

Prepare...seek the Lord while He may be found and know for yourself what is taught in the Word, and ask the Father, through Christ for what He needs or wants you to do to prepare for these times.

America is going to hell in a hand basket...get out of denial. There is no hope left - your only hope is in the Most High who can protect and keep you.

*** History has proven that when church and state unite, religious intolerance is the inevitable result.

- "Rome when in minority is as gentle as a lamb, when in equality is as clever as a fox, and when in the majority is as fierce as a lion seeking whom it may devour."

Is my opinion that the Founding Fathers relied on Divine Providence as their guide, "Annuit Coeptus".

In our finite vision, we as human beings have no clue why bad things happen to good people but bad things happen never-the-less. If things look to be out of balance then maybe we should rely on gravity to restore order, upcoming recession maybe one example.

Founding fathers relied on history of governments and societies rather heavily as well. They were not stupid people that designed and produced living documents that encompassed room for growth like "More will be revealed". I like a living document produced by Ike on his exist too, by the way.

So if your leaders say to you, "Look the Kingdom is in the sky, then birds of the air will proceed you. If you leaders say to you, Look the Kingdom of the Father is in the sea, then the fish will proceed you...". Rather the Kingdom maybe anywhere but in Washington, D.C. so get the heck out of town while you still have a chance....

go easy ;)

Hey Spidey2,

You have nothing to fear but fear itself ...

Boo!!

Sorry. I know I shouldn't scare people who are afraid of ghosts, gods, or goblins.

Boo!!

Damn. I just can't resist.

Wait, so heaven is here on Earth? We just have to get rid of people who complain. Spidey, does that mean you have to rid this world of yourself?

Hey, Spidey is not completely incapable of learning, apparently he's learned that "evaporize" is not a word!

Jesus said : "My yoke is easy and my burden is light".

You guys should at least try it first before complaining. Your complaining will send you nowhere.

God's way is simple : straighten up or vaporize.

And as the Bible prophesied, they chose to vaporize.

With all your complainings, didn't it come to your senses that the Bible is right afterall?

And just the same, as the Bible prophesied, they chose to vaporize.

[future scenario] After the complainers were all gone , the world is now in peace, prosperous, and truly blessed by our loving God. Isn't this supposed to be the plan of God but it's the complainers who's messing up the plan?

I don't really have in any interest in learning about Christ. Between Spidey and Canyon Shearer, I would rather be a Satanist at the gates of heaven than their flavor of Christian. Revelations is apparently the only book of the Bible worth reading, and it's all I need to know about it. Just toss your dirty children into a lake of fire. It's like leaving your children on a rubber tire in a lava flow. I still think the Vikings had the superior society, until the Christians came and destroyed them.

With apology to "Spidey" - sort of. As incoherent as you are, you are light years ahead of JOZEVZ. Of course, this doesn't really cut you much slack since he/she/it is totally wacko.

I agree with Pam about "Spidey." I have yet to read a single posting of his which was coherent. It's always chapter and verse without conscious interference from his brain [assuming that there is actually a brain in there]. It's sort of like dealing with a poorly programmed Fundamentalist "Eliza" program. You get answers, but they are often not to the point and almost always idiotic. Spidey doesn't know spit [substitute suitable expletive] about almost anything he feels qualified to pontificate about.

If the world is going to "evaporize" (are you serious?), then why bother being moral? Your dear and loving God is gonna burn it anyway. He is really just so nice - just like you.

Spidey, I would love to hear you call me a moron to my face, then you would know what real fear is. But since you are a coward who fears a magical being who could care less about the fate of his creations, save sending an ignorant, worthless bearded pansy who magically absorbed all of the sin of the world forever (yet it's still here) and suffered a fate that was comparably mild to that some serial killers inflicted on their victims (I guess since they didn't cry out "I'm the son of God!" before they died that they couldn't absorb more recent sins) - I will praise you for being so courageous that you can comment on how stupid everyone else is who doesn't believe in magical floaty men and really special Jews. Good for you. I'll go to Hell, and I'm stupid because you warned me. I still think you are a coward and a waste of flesh. So much for evolution - you may be the missing link. Stop wearing your seat belt. Let God sort it out for you (and save us your mouth in the process). If your loud mouth will be singing in heaven, there is no worse eternity I can imagine.

That's correct coz what right does liberals have if their immediate destiny is to vaporize?

Spidey:
**We have no right to tell those Chinese to be democratic if the one telling them has no morals.**

Actually, we have no right to tell another sovereign country how to run its government at all. How we perceive their morality (or how they perceive ours) is irrelevant.

And the word is either "vaporize" or "evaporate" - there is no such word as "evaporize."

Even in China which is an atheist country, pornography and gay marriage are not permitted. These are basic immoral acts even in countires who knows no god.

So what shall we tell those Chinese? We, Americans has no morals so you should copy our system? We have no right to tell those Chinese to be democratic if the one telling them has no morals. You liberals should stop preaching democracy just to propagate your immorality abroad. That is what gives fuel to all those terrorists. They think they are doing God a service by destroying "Satan's Empire". And it's not just coincidence that they like to target a very liberal state. With or without Huckabee, all these immorality would cease because it would be enforced from abroad and not from within.

"Alas, alas, that great city... for in one hour is she made desolate". Revelation 18: 19.

All you liberals should start gazing up the sky coz those nuke would be coming soon. God created this earth and it's not designed to be inhabited by immoral people.

God's way is simple : straighten up or evaporize.

And as the Bible prophecied, they chose to evaporize.

I quote: "Madalyn Murray O'Hair is the founder of American Atheist and is the one responsible for removing prayer from America's school [sic]. She was kidnapped together with her other atheist Son and adopted daughter and all were killed by her atheist employees in her American Atheist organization [after O Hair exposed in an article that one of them embezzled $54,000 from the organization].

Her other son Bill Murray (converted from atheism to Christianity) [oh, that does wonders for his credibility] spoke critically of his mother after her disappearance: 'My mother was an evil person...'

Let's recap.

George Bush in the White House who talks to Jesus, the former head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Peter Pace who stated publicly that Bush is basically the hand of God incarnate, and all the rest of the God-fearing set who use religion as a political tool to convince people to vote against their own economic interests -- these who slaughter men, women, and children in an illegal and immoral occupation of a country that was never a threat to us, all to plunder its natural resources -- these who torture, who eavesdrop on communications without court order, who hold prisoners without habeas corpus, all clear violations of the law if not the Constitution itself -- these people who have looted the Treasury with impunity, and shifted the burden to pay for their theft to the suffering middle class and working poor, in Jesus' name, amen -- these are all just your kind of people, aren't they? I mean, after all, they all FEAR the BOGEYMAN, don't they? I mean, just like you do??

But the person who insisted that the separation of church and state was a founding principle of our great nation, and therefore students educated with public funds could not be brainwashed with your nonsensical moldy dogma, and that if you really wanted to so abuse your children all you have to do is simply take them to your church, well, she's so evil you can't stand it. After all, her newly brainwashed son accuses her of stealing.

Let me tell you: if you're hung up on stealing, you really should take a look at what's going on in the Bush administration. There are plenty of Bible thumping maniacs on television taking a widow's last dollar too.

I don't fear the bogeyman, I fear the people who demonstrate their psychosis so publicly, and the society that accepts it without question.

WCD asks:

"Jed and Lepi

Freethinkers.

And we are a better world with views like yours?"

Better for us, worse for you.

Thanks to freethinkers we have science, technology, evolutionary theory, freedom of thought. We like that.

You would prefer to live in the dark ages, in the thrall of fear, a slave to an imaginary Lord and Master. As Bertrand Russell put it:

"Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . .

The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings."

You want fear and groveling and grotesque barbaric ignorance, as your absurd condemnation of evolution reveals. I want calm dignity and progress, and to be master of my own fate. Gradually, over the decades and centuries, the trends of civilization are going my way. You rant and rave and post wicked nonsense about evolution because you loath freedom and progress, but you cannot prevent people from learning; you cannot extinguish enlightenment. You are on the losing side of history.

What can't narrow minded neochristians like Colson understand about freedom of religion? As many posters have said many times, who decides what are God's standards? Neochristian definitions of God's standards are capital punishment (thou shalt not kill), pre-emptive war (thou shalt not kill), castigate gays (love your neighbor as yourself).

The only explanation I can come up with regarding the cherry picking of scripture for their own definition of "God's standards" is either they are mentally deficient (brainwashed by Dobson, Roberston, Haggard, Craig, Vitter, et. al.); or just mentally and morally lazy.

Only a Chuck Colson type could opine in a piece entitled "Give Huckabee a Break."

The dazed and confused states "God’s standards were quite explicit as well as implicit in all of the founding documents."

In other words, Mr. Colson thinks that if it isn't there, it's implicit. I suppose that's par for the course for a personality type who, when their prayers are not answered, rationalize it as God working in strange ways.

So, sure, Chuck, just imagine that it's there. After all, 70% of Americans believe in ghosts and UFOs too, so you're in good company.

Not that it would matter if it were there. We have a wall of separation between church and state, and when Hucksterbee speaks passionately about codifying Christianity in our Constitution, that Christo-fascism must be resisted with every fiber of being of every rational person: Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Unitarian, Agnostic, and Atheist alike. It's been key to our survival as a nation so far.

As Thomas Jefferson wrote to the Danbury Baptists in 1802:

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."

So please, don't try to blow smoke up our skirts, Chuck. Remember, that great big invisible man in the sky is watching!

More doubletalk and deliberate obscurity from the former Watergate thug. "God's standards" are words vague and general enough to drive a Mack truck through, as Chuckie well knows. What we all know is that he uses them to lay down the fog that will allow him and his fellow holy rollers to impose their version of theocracy on America, in violation of everything the Founding Fathers intended.

Bend it, shake it, bang it on the floor--the Second Amendment says what it means and means what it says: separation of church and state. Keeping religion out of politics. Imposing no religious standard for holding public office. Atheists being as able to run for public office as Mike Huckabee.

No one summed it up better than John Adams: The people who wrote the Constitution in no way intended to establish a Christian nation. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. They intended to establish a secular nation, and they did so.

Huckabee's statement about amending the Constitution to make it compatible with Christianity renders him unfit to hold any public office in the United States. It's no different than saying the Constitution should be amended to establish a military dictatorship. Huckabee's statement is that contradictory to the letter and spirit of the Constitution.

More doubletalk and deliberate obscurity from the former Watergate thug. "God's standards" are words vague and general enough to drive a Mack truck through, as Chuckie well knows. What we all know is that he uses them to lay down the fog that will allow him and his fellow holy rollers to impose their version of theocracy on America, in violation of everything the Founding Fathers intended.

Bend it, shake it, bang it on the floor--the Second Amendment says what it means and means what it says: separation of church and state. Keeping religion out of politics. Imposing no religious standard for holding public office. Atheists being as able to run for public office as Mike Huckabee.

No one summed it up better than John Adams: The people who wrote the Constitution in no way intended to establish a Christian nation. Period. No ifs, ands, or buts. They intended to establish a secular nation, and they did so.

Huckabee's statement about amending the Constitution to make it compatible with Christianity renders him unfit to hold any public office in the United States. It's no different than saying the Constitution should be amended to establish a military dictatorship. Huckabee's statement is that contradictory to the letter and spirit of the Constitution.

One doesn't have to be an atheist to recognize the danger that Huckabee represents. His drive to amend the Constitution according to "God's standards" probably wouldn't stop with abortion and gay marriage. I could easily imagine him going further and banning contraception, pornography, and homosexuality in general, and forcing public-school students to pray and to learn creationism. How far would he go if America experienced another terrorist attack?

Spiderman2, "The truth is I have mixed feelings for these people. You pity them coz they would be frying for their idiocy. You try hard to warn them and yet they stay as stupid as they are."

It is not stupidity, it is rejection of truth which translates into rejection of God.

Will all go to heaven, no. The bible clearly teaches that "wide is the gat to hell and narrow is the road to heaven."

The road less traveled will be the narrow one.

Good night, is it okay for me to say I miss my cat, Max? I shouldn't have read about Lady and her puppy, sooooooooo sad. Max would always sleep with me and hug me, really.

Spiderman2, "Those who fear God the most are the most intelligent.

Jesus said, "Fear Him, and I said it again, FEAR HIM."

I second that based on:

Proverbs 10:9 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."

And it's not over yet with Madalyn Murray O'Hair and her atheist son and adopted daughter. After being massacred, they still have to see and taste what Jesus had said : "Fear Him, and I say it again, FEAR HIM."

The truth is I have mixed feelings for these people. You pity them coz they would be frying for their idiocy. You try hard to warn them and yet they stay as stupid as they are.

I am not the Anon that is Atheist.

TERRA, "I used to have a little Spitz...she had a litter of babies, one was so little and weak that Lady would bring her into me to feed. I fed her every two hours with a small bottle and milk from the vet..until one morning Lady woke me up nudgeing me. She had her little one in her mouth, bringing her to me..she laid her by my pillow...the little thing was dead. Lady laid her head on the bed, whining. She grieved for that baby. She would feed her other babies, but she grieved the loss."

Your story made me cry.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair is the founder of American Atheist and is the one responsible for removing prayer from America's school. She was kidnapped together with her other atheist Son and adopted daughter and all were killed by her atheist employees in her American Atheist organization.

Her other son Bill Murray (converted from atheism to Christianity) spoke critically of his mother after her disappearance:

"My mother was an evil person... Not for removing prayer from America's schools... No, she was just evil. She stole huge amounts of money. She misused the trust of people. She cheated children out of their parents' inheritance. She cheated on her taxes and even stole from her own organizations. She once printed up phony stock certificates on her own printing press to try to take over another atheist publishing company."

If you like to read real life story that's as gruesome as texas chainsaw massacre then read her biography.

Anon is an atheist and just recently he posted this : "You are on the losing side of history".

Maybe, he was referring to his side of history. Yeah, Anon, we heard you loud and clear.

Pierre JC WROTE"

"To err is human, to forgive, divine."

TRUELY STATED.

I don't know why my 1:39 am post posted three times, sorry. {:~{

What wrote: "Rev. 12:9 - Satans deception foretold...the most deceptive of religions is the Roman Catholic church."

Amen and Amen!!

What wrote:"If it wasnt good for Israelites to eat shellfish (which eat the dregs from the bottom of the ocean floor)..why is it ok for any others to eat it."

Where is the scripture refernce for what you are saying about shellfish. What does the New Testament say about it? I am open to the truth.

What wrote: "Rev. 12:9 - Satans deception foretold...the most deceptive of religions is the Roman Catholic church."

Amen and Amen!!

What wrote:"If it wasnt good for Israelites to eat shellfish (which eat the dregs from the bottom of the ocean floor)..why is it ok for any others to eat it."

Where is the scripture refernce for what you are saying about shellfish. What does the New Testament say about it? I am open to the truth.

What wrote: "Rev. 12:9 - Satans deception foretold...the most deceptive of religions is the Roman Catholic church."

Amen and Amen!!

What wrote:"If it wasnt good for Israelites to eat shellfish (which eat the dregs from the bottom of the ocean floor)..why is it ok for any others to eat it."

Where is the scripture refernce for what you are saying about shellfish. What does the New Testament say about it? I am open to the truth.

Anon, fear in some or many cases is a sign of intelligence. Almost all who gets into a car accident are a result of drunk driving coz alcohol supresses fear. Im not amused if you atheist and secularists are "fearless". Showing no fear in times when danger is imminent is a sign of stupidity.

Those who fear God the most are the most intelligent.

Jesus said, "Fear Him, and I said it again, FEAR HIM."

My concern for you is like this : "Hey man, don't jump off that cliff coz you're gonna die. Geez, the idiot jumped. The stupid guy has no fear and he's dead."

Pam, don't jump off that cliff also coz we still don't know the intricacies of DNAs to make you alive again. Geez, the same old story. She jumped too. These guys are morons.

1st God sends no one to hell. That is, absent God rescuing us, our natural destination.

2nd there is no such thing since the fall as natural morality. The natural world is a bloody minded mess in which it is normal to kill your step children so that you can more quickly make children of your own with their mother, bears and lions for two examples. It is also quite normal in the natural world to devour your own offspring, several species of fish alligators and hyenas engage in this particularly nasty form of cannibalism. I could go on but I think you get my point.

3rd The least number of religious views the government accommodate is one that is indeed tyrrany and that is where the atheists among us would take us given their druthers.

Spidey2 said: ""And all the unbelieving... shall be cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 21:8 That's the reason man and Im so certain about it."

That sounds really scary. But are you so certain because you're really scared or are you really scared because you're so certain?

Or both?

Freestinker, et al:
Don't waste your time engaging Spiderman2 - he's mentally deficient and incapable of responding to reason.

WCD, read any of the books by Frans de Waal
http://tinyurl.com/2nxahv
But be careful, you might learn something!

Are you serious? Is it so that you were called the "evil genuis?" Why? 7 months in prison was not nearly enough for your dastardly behavior. Has relligion too now become the refuge of a scoundrel?

Are you serious? Is it so that you were called the "evil genuis?" Why? 7 months in prison was not nearly enough for your dastardly behavior. Has relligion too now become the refuge of a scoundrel?

Are you serious? Is it so that you were called the "evil genuis?" Why? 7 months in prison was not nearly enough for your dastardly behavior. Has relligion too now become the refuge of a scoundrel?

Are you serious? Is it so that you were called the "evil genuis?" Why? 7 months in prison was not nearly enough for your dastardly behavior. Has relligion too now become the refuge of a scoundrel?

Huckabee is trying to hide his stance that illegal aliens should be allowed to leave for a day and then quickly return legally, which is really 'touchback' amnesty.

Gheen, Gadiel, and Smeriglio are working with others that represent the 84 organization leaders that have released a letter rebuking the endorsement of lone Minuteman Jim Gilchrist and Huckabee's deceptive amnesty plan. (Letter Copy at ALIPAC.us)

"Mike Huckabee cannot escape the truth and if the voters know the truth, his surge will collapse," says William Gheen of ALIPAC. "If you look at Huckster's website, he wants you to believe he will make illegal aliens leave the country in 120 days! Strange how he does not mention the part of his plan which allows them to return the next day. Mike Huckabee is a liar and the last thing we need is another liar in the White House!"

While Mike Huckabee's promoted immigration plan appears tough on immigration enforcement, his campaign statements and website omit the part about the fast return of illegal aliens. Mike Huckabee stated on Fox news December 9th that illegals should be able to apply for the path to citizenship like a "credit card" and be back in a matter of days! He has since refused to discuss this position with the press.

Further controversy erupted when 84 Leaders of immigration enforcement organizations quickly rebuked lone Minuteman Jim Gilchrist and the Huckster for trying to trick voters into supporting a pro-Amnesty candidate.

"Mike Huckabee has one of the worst records on immigration enforcement out of the GOP candidates and what makes him the bottom of the barrel is his willingness to lie to the nation. He lied about his theology degree and he is lying about his immigration enforcement promises."

*** History has proven that when church and state unite, religious intolerance is the inevitable result.

- "Rome when in minority is as gentle as a lamb, when in equality is as clever as a fox, and when in the majority is as fierce as a lion seeking whom it may devour."

gay cockin!

Anon, said "You are on the losing side of history"

North Korea - An atheist country which also believes in evolution.

South Korea - A big portion of it are believers.
Should I explain more?

When can atheists or secularist think right? Im so tired of the stupidity.

There are true and false religions and bunching them all as one is also stupidity.

Freestinker said "If your faith is so certain, I wonder why you feel the need to prove anything?"

"And all the unbelieving... shall be cast into the lake of fire." Rev. 21:8

That's the reason man and Im so certain about it.

WCD asks:

"Jed and Lepi

Freethinkers.

And we are a better world with views like yours?"

Better for us, worse for you.

Thanks to freethinkers we have science, technology, evolutionary theory, freedom of thought. We like that.

You would prefer to live in the dark ages, in the thrall of fear, a slave to an imaginary Lord and Master. As Bertrand Russell put it:

"Fear is the basis of the whole thing -- fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . .

The whole conception of God is a conception derived from the ancient Oriental despotisms. It is a conception quite unworthy of free men. When you hear people in church debasing themselves and saying that they are miserable sinners, and all the rest of it, it seems contemptible and not worthy of self-respecting human beings."

You want fear and groveling and grotesque barbaric ignorance, as your absurd condemnation of evolution reveals. I want calm dignity and progress, and to be master of my own fate. Gradually, over the decades and centuries, the trends of civilization are going my way. You rant and rave and post wicked nonsense about evolution because you loath freedom and progress, but you cannot prevent people from learning; you cannot extinguish enlightenment. You are on the losing side of history.

Unless you guys stop acting like you know everything and yet use the word "random", calling you FOOLS is not a bad description to use. You make hasty conclusions despite the fact that there are still more questions to answer. You make yourself fools, not me.

Freestinker said "Evolution is not random, it happens by a rather orderly process called natural selection in which random mutations are but one component. "

You said "random mutations" or simply means "I don't know" mutations. It's all a play of words. Don't you get it? Random always accompany your explanations. And please stop using the word "natural selction" if you don't know WHO selects and what criteria it is using to select. I want to know how that "selector" placed my two ears at the side of my head when he can select to chose yours on your forehead.

Unless you guys act like you know everything and yet use the word "random", calling you FOOLS is not a bad description to use. You make hasty conclusions despite the fact that there are still more questions to answer. You make yourself fools, not me.

JeZEUS (Jesus) and MoZEUS (Moses).

Spidey2 says:

"God calls atheist as FOOLS or idiots and rightly so coz even based on simple reasonings, they are so dumb and idiotic."

Jesus must very proud of you.

Spidey2:

It's FreeStinker.

I don't "believe" in evolution. I accept evolution as scientific fact. Do you "believe" in gravity? Do you "believe" in bacteria? Do you "believe" in the Pluto? No. You accept these scientific facts. Belief requires only faith not observable facts.

Evolution is not random, it happens by a rather orderly process called natural selection in which random mutations are but one component. I don't have the time nor the inclination to give you a biology lesson since you seem to have missed this chapter in 7th grade biology class.

You can call the process of evolution god if that works for you, it's just not factually correct.

And since you are the one making supernatural claims, the burden of proof is yours alone and you don't have a shred of evidence to support your claim. All you have is belief and I thought that faith alone was good enough for believers?

If you faith is so certain, I wonder why you feel the need to prove anything?

WCD: wrote: "Morality is not a term that applies to the animal kingdom. Same goes for a similar term - virtue."

Well, that is quite a statement based on nothing. Typical blind believer, spouting statement backed by nothing but what you have been told by the preacher.

WCD: wrote: "With regard to animals:
Instinct? Definitely. Similarities to human characteristics...especially of the mind? Minimal."

And you understand this because ... what? You study this for a living, or it just disagrees with your religious outlook, so its not possible?

WCD: wrote: "There is a fundamental reason for this. Animals are different beings. Period. Made lower than man for a purpose. (The latter statemtent never intended to disregard the animal kingdom..without it, it would be a drab world)"

Amen amen. I heard the WORD! "Period" Meaning that there is no more discussion. Believe because I say so!

Sorry WCD, I'm not a member of you or anyone's church. Your blind faithful pronouncements are not enough to overcome observation, knowledge and understanding that has been observed not only by those who study animals, but by people like the poster above whose dog grieved for her dead puppy, or the examination of social lives of chimps, elephants and other mammals. In your mind they should all be running around eating each other but guess what, they do not. You not only do not understand animals, you do not understand people, because judeo-christian belief relies on fear to maintain morality, and fear is the worst method of maintaining morality in any society, animal or human.

Even the word "natural selection", has intelligence in it. How did a plant, animal or person become an intelligent working biological system? Who made the intelligent selection? You can't even build a descent skycraper if there is no "intellgient selector" who "selects" the material to use and "select" the dimensions of beams and columns. A skycraper is way to primitive compared to the intelligence that governs the system found in any living organism.

God calls atheist as FOOLS or idiots and rightly so coz even based on simple reasonings, they are so dumb and idiotic.

One reason why Heaven would be a nice place is because idiots are banned there. And that I believe is literal.

If Colson continues to respect these "Enlightenment" doctrines, he should be careful coz he might not make it to heaven. Believing it can make you idiotic.

Freethinker, before believing in evolution, crunch this:

DNAs are like computer programs on a CD but they act very differently. It's like plugging a CD on an electrical outlet and then that CD morphs into a CD player and plays its tune. That is how intelligent the maker of DNA is and I call that maker God. Science won't be able to reach that level of intelligence. They can only mimic or copy a DNA function but they can never understand it's secrets like how and why DNAs exist.

Anybody who claims that it is "incidental" or random is mad. The word random simply means "no solution" or "I don't know". It's actually an admission that they know nothing and they only cover their ignorance thru clever use of words.

Freethinker, start explaining how DNAs evolve by your evolution theory and please stop using the word random coz it simply means "I don't know". You guys are also fund of using the word "reason" but I still have to hear some reason from you guys. This is your moment. Lay out the "reasons" behind DNAs.

Spidey2:

I would thank evolution by natural selection for both my ears and all my other pieces-parts but evolution doesn't care who I thank, so I don't thank anything.

Also fyi, Atheists don't believe in gods, most secularists do believe in god(s) they just don't like to mix religion with government. So when you intend to bash atheists, please understand the difference. We atheists can't afford to share your disdain with secularist believers who are unworthy of your irrational criticism.

Anon:

How exactly will the UN decide what my child reads? Confiscate her library card? Seize the books in my home? Block her path into her favorite bookstore?

If we examine the Constitution, I think the only secular item there is allowing abortion. The rest are paterned after biblical doctrines. Even the separation of church of state was pushed by baptists to protect them from government interference.

Aside from abortion, what else in that document is secular? Am I missing something or am I just listening to dreamers ? Are you guys normal?

A normal person praises his Designer for giving him 2 ears to enable him to listen stereo phonic sound or music. One ear would only absorb a mono sound and it's not delightful to the ears.

A secularists would think two ears just accidentally protrude out of his head. He has no idea why it's there but blame it to pure accident. Why it didn't protrude on their forehead, they never gave it some thought.

A normal person gives credit to whom it is due (his Creator). A secularist gives credit to the word "incidental" or "random".

A normal person knows were he came from. A secularists don't know where he came from.

A normal person thinks he is normal. A secularist thinks that he is normal. That's where the trouble begins -- when an abnormal thinks he is normal.

These secularist people are very hard to cure coz they think they are normal. They think Huckabee is abnormal because he often gives credit to the Supreme Being who made him. These secularist don't know who to thank for. Thank you ACCIDENT ?

FYI

UN Wants Final Word on Rearing Your Kids

While pressing senators to reject the Law of the Sea Treaty, or LOST, patriots should also urge rejection of another “convention” sent to the chamber by Bilderberg President Bill Clinton that has been lurking since 1995. If the Senate ratifies the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, the world body, not parents, will decide how to rear children.

The Senate is likely to get a significant makeover in the 2008 election. If your senators are incumbents with a good, America-first record, contact them and warn them of these two treaties. If one or both are new boys, give the man in-depth education. Even senators who are normally on good behavior can cast odd votes. For example, the late Sen. William Proxmire (D-Wis.) was a strong patriot and pork-fighter. But, unexplainably, he advocated ratification of the UN’s so-called “genocide treaty.”

If the Senate ratifies Rights of the Child, the state. acting under UN direction, will decide what your children read, who they associate with, what discipline (if any) can be imposed and whether or not they can be home schooled (home-schooled children perform significantly better academically than their peers in public schools).

But, regardless of merit or lack thereof, the UN should have no role in rearing America’s children. For that matter, Congress has no role in state school systems under the 10th Amendment.

WCD:

It's Freestinker and no, the world is definitely better off with my stinking opinions ... but they are Free!

"nature and nature’s God"? Charles W. "Chuck" Colson, ARE YOU NORMAL? You treat nature as if it has a mind of it's own. Is abortion natural? Is gay marriage natural?

Here, reflect on this and study it because you read too much comic books.

A normal woman bears a child in her womb for 9 months. A secularist woman, usually 3 months only.

A normal man marries a woman. A secularist man marries a man.

A normal person believes somebody created him. A secularist person believes they are a result of an accident (whether a car accident, I don't know)

A normal person considers another person as his relative. A secularist person treats apes as their great grandpa.

A normal person thinks he is normal. A secularist thinks he is normal. That's where the trouble begins -- when an abnormal thinks he is normal.

These secularist people are very hard to cure coz they think they are normal. They think Huckabee is abnormal when they are the ones who are not normal. When did 3 months became normal to deliver a fetus?

Colson, you should just focus on your ministry and avoid talking coz you end up being a FOOL.

WCD:

I guess that all depends on how you qualify "better."

Jed and Lepi

Freethinkers.

And we are a better world with views like yours?

Hogwash.

WHAT?:
**It is elementary. The dietary laws are for mankinds good. All of mankind. Those who separated it out for Jews only are among those who have brought deceit and confusion to the religious world. Think about it. If it wasnt good for Israelites to eat shellfish (which eat the dregs from the bottom of the ocean floor)..why is it ok for any others to eat it.**

If I have to choose between God and crawfish, God loses.

If we examine the Constitution, I think the only secular item there is allowing abortion. The rest are paterned after biblical doctrines. Even the separation of church of state was pushed by baptists to protect them from government interference.

Aside from abortion, what else in that document is secular? Am I missing something or am I just listening to dreamers ? Are you guys normal?

A normal person praises his Designer for giving him 2 ears to enable him to listen stereo phonic sound or music. One ear would only absorb a mono sound and it's not delightful to the ears.

A secularists would think two ears just accidentally protrude out of his head. He has no idea why it's there but blame it to pure accident. Why it didn't protrude on their forehead, they never gave it some thought.

A normal person gives credit to whom it is due (his Creator). A secularist gives credit to the word "incidental" or "random".

A normal person knows were he came from. A secularists don't know where he came from.

A normal person thinks he is normal. A secularist thinks that he is normal. That's where the trouble begins -- when an abnormal thinks he is normal.

These secularist people are very hard to cure coz they think they are normal. They think Huckabee is abnormal because he often gives credit to the Supreme Being who made him. These secularist don't know who to thank for. Thank you ACCIDENT ?

WCD says:
"Tell me then...Does an elephant concern him/herself with being moral? And if so, how did they explain that to you?"

I saw an interesting film documentary on elephants that clearly demonstrated their communal morality. They care for their neighbor's young and show real empathy for their deased loved ones. Actual footage of elephants caring for other's in their community and mourning their dead. It was a fascinating lesson in mammalian morality.

What?:
**Name one of the 10 commandments that would be contrary to one having a fulfilling, decent life?**

As a Pagan, I have many deities, so "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" would interfere with my spiritual fulfillment.

I also have statuary representing various deities and elemental spirits, on my altar, about my home, and in my car, which I'm guessing your book would consider "graven images" or "idols," the loss of which would also impair my sense of fulfillment.

Some Christians define adultery as any sexual activity, with or without penetration, outside the bonds of a legal marriage. I don't see marriage as being a requirement for sex. And I certainly consider love-making - with or without a gold band - a fulfilling activity (no pun intended).

WHAT? wrote:

">>Are god's standards really that explicit?

Name one of the 10 commandments that would be contrary to one having a fulfilling, decent life?"

#1. No, you aren't my Lord. Thanks but no thanks.

#2. No Gods period. Not before or after you.

#3. Graven images. I like graven images, including painting, photos and those statues of Buddha that the Taliban blew up in their fanatical devotion to this rule.

#5. I'll work any damn time I feel like it, on any schedule I like.

#6. It is no virtue to honor dishonorable parents.

#10. Oh come now. Coveting is our national pastime in the U.S. Keeping up with the Jones is what we do, and the basis of our economy.

That's 6 out of 10 I can do without, and yes I do have a fulfilling, decent life. Most people, in most countries, do not follow these 6 laws, and they are fine. Thank goodness most people, including you and the Pope do not follow #3, or we would have to destroy most of the world's great art, such as the Sistine Chapel.

Morality is not a term that applies to the animal kingdom. Same goes for a similar term - virtue.

With regard to animals:
Instinct? Definitely. Similarities to human characteristics...especially of the mind? Minimal.

There is a fundamental reason for this. Animals are different beings. Period. Made lower than man for a purpose. (The latter statemtent never intended to disregard the animal kingdom..without it, it would be a drab world)

Hey Chuck, what the heck makes YOU think you know what Huckabee meant? Somehow you skipped the basic rule of interpretation, which is you rely upon the plain meaning of the language? It is damn clear what Huckabee meant - he meant we should amend the Constitution to make it comply with the Bible. He said it, he meant it, that's what he believes. There is no "perspective" needed in order to understand that. Huckabee is a man who doesn't believe in evolution, which is odd, because I'm beginning to see his point. You haven't changed fundamentally since Nixon, still having the same respect for the Constitution now as you did then.

Mike Huckabeee is a good man, yet hopefully he is the last of the "I am a Christian first" politicians who had imbedded, and made themselves a viable part of the Republican party.

This country was founded upon freedom and respect, otherwise the Constitution would be filled with references to some God (maybe not yours, or your interpretation of one).

The sooner we come to that conclusion, the sooner we can again become the brilliant beacon of liberty, justice, and freedom to the world.

And my God.....I surely hope it is soon.

WCD,
As far as elephants go..if you call saddness at loseing a loved one, protecting the weak and young,helping others in the community, yes...elephants have morality. I do not think they are concerned about it...being true to themselves is part of their instinct.

I used to have a little Spitz...she had a litter of babies, one was so little and weak that Lady would bring her into me to feed. I fed her every two hours with a small bottle and milk from the vet..until one morning Lady woke me up nudgeing me. She had her little one in her mouth, bringing her to me..she laid her by my pillow...the little thing was dead. Lady laid her head on the bed, whining. She grieved for that baby. She would feed her other babies, but she grieved the loss.

Yes, animals have morality, some that I have seen are better then men.
And I did not ask, but I do not think haveing a organized religion had much to do with it.

terra

>>I always like to remind readers of Charles Colson's pieces that he is not just a minister; he is the famous Nixon toady and convicted Watergate criminal.
Go ahead and Google him to learn more!

Pierre JC

To err is human, to forgive, divine.

Pray tell, can we google your faults and possible indiscretions?

"God’s standards were quite explicit as well as implicit in all of the founding documents."

Chuck, you might try reading the Constitution.
The First Amendment guarantees freedom of religion. The First Commandment FORBIDS it.
Take your pick, folks: Either you revere the First Amendment or the First Commandment -- they are mutually exclusive.
And the Consitution makes absolutely NO mention of God. None.

TJ

Dietary laws were/are not commandments, per say. Israel was chosen by God to be the flagship of returning mankind to follow God - something that had been lost since Eden.

It is elementary. The dietary laws are for mankinds good. All of mankind. Those who separated it out for Jews only are among those who have brought deceit and confusion to the religious world. Think about it. If it wasnt good for Israelites to eat shellfish (which eat the dregs from the bottom of the ocean floor)..why is it ok for any others to eat it.

By the way...there were 12 tribes of Israel. One tribe, Dan, has descendents in the Danite, later Danish, people. Fascinating history when one dives into it!

Mr. Charles Colson,

Thank you for your essay.

You stated : "What is needed today is not to amend the Constitution but to interpret it according to its original intent. Doing so would eliminate 90 percent of the so-called church-state issues which so bitterly divide us."

Does that mean the interpretation of the Constitution is now not just by lawyers, judges and Supreme Court justices but by members of the clergy, including theologians?

Surely it would not eliminate church-state "divide", but rather to accentuate the divide not only between people of the same faith of varying shades of personalised beliefs and with various sects and denominations, but also between adherents of different faiths. And, of course, lawyers and judges have different interpretations of the Constitution judging by some rulings.

It would be a double, triple headache at least. Leave the Constitution alone. Keep it neutral. Keep it above and beyond the fray of various beliefs, values and interpretations of faith, even on God or gods, what is God's standards, and which of God's standards - the most criminal of which, incidentally, are already addressed by the civil courts system, including murder, rape, robbery etc.

Have faith in the Consititution. It's original intent is to be just and fair to all regardless of race and religion.

Thank you and best regards

"J"

Gods standards (aka the 10 commandments) apply to every human being in the same way...it is only the circumstances that we experience as individuals, whether they be good for us or whether they be contrary to our happiness..these are the only differences among us.

Think about it.

Where can I find the implicit or explicit notes on not eating shellfish in the founding documents? Oh, what's that? Not those commandments? Oh, ok, gotcha.

I always like to remind readers of Charles Colson's pieces that he is not just a minister; he is the famous Nixon toady and convicted Watergate criminal.
Go ahead and Google him to learn more!

>>Are god's standards really that explicit?

Name one of the 10 commandments that would be contrary to one having a fulfilling, decent life?

>>If they were, then why has the christian world suffered from religious wars throughout its history?

Because mankind as a whole does not see the need for the whole 10 commandments. Many discount all of them, some discount a few...even fewer see the necessity for all to be a part of their lives.

Why the persecution of "heretics"? Why the violent disagreements about such matters as whether the divine and human natures of Christ are united or separate?

Rev. 12:9 - Satans deception foretold...the most deceptive of religions is the Roman Catholic church.

History teaches us quite clearly that either god's standards are not explicit; that even if they are, humans cannot interpret them; or both.

Humans beings can interpret Gods standards..if they only try. God is letting mankind do it 'their way' ...because thats what mankind wanted. This will change at a point in the future...before we wipe ourselves away from the face of this earth

Here we go again, another frontal assault on the greatest document ever written and our common sense. I guess "Chuck" and Huckabee and the rest of the evangelical "arm chair quarterbacks" believe if you throw enough of it on the wall, some of it is bound to stick.

If you're familiar with Dante, you'll wonder as I do what level of purgatory these folks will be assigned to.

But I'm sure their flock (sheep) will Baaaa and throw more of it on the wall...

It seems to me that the ultimate value of the separation clause in the constitution is not to protect unbelievers from the coercive control of religion but to protect religion from the steady encroachment of government into church affairs.

As an atheist, I'd be slightly worried about religious types monkeying around with the constitution. If I were a Christian, I would be much more worried.

Jesus himself preached separation of church and state as well as separation of church and faith. Huckabee is just preaching good'ol religo-fascism. The Constitution forbids religious tests for government and government workers and the Constitution forbids Congress fro passing laws respecting the establishment of religion. Saudi Arabia and Bin laden would like to change our Constitution just like Huckabee would. Just say NO.

More people in our great Nation can make the claim that they have seen a UFO than those who can make the claim to have seen God.

Therefore, because of their belief in UFO's, should we alter the Constitution to fit that belief? If a large enough group - even one that does not represent the majority - has the right to change our Constitution, don't those UFO viewers deserve their shot?

We have had over 220 years to change our laws to fit with The Bible. There are those who drafted The Constitution that were elected to positions where they could have created a Christian nation. Yet, those who came before did not believe the need existed to create that link.

A group with a belief wants to alter our history to fit their view. If so, then let's agree that unalienable rights was really intended to be a nod to UFOs and let that belief change our history, too.

God's standards are obvious. You have a king who speaks with God's authority. You have nobles who are appointed by the king, and you must render to that king what is his, and to God what is God's. You should also refrain from being unduly harsh toward your slaves. And you slaves should accept your lot, for God shall reward you in your next life.

The American Constitution obviously needs to be amended in order to reflect God's standards, as laid down in the Bible.

Or -- and I don't know if we want to do this -- we could go on being heretics and see what happens...

So Chuck Colson wants to assign no meaning to mans words. Words that are clearly spoken by candidate Huckabee. Why should we not believe Governor Huckabee, if he said it? After all he is a Baptist minister. Is it OK for preachers to lie? Colson seems to think so. Or is Huckabee just another liar who will say anything to get elected. If you are aman of the cloth you can’t have it both ways. By the way the original intent was to get away from the religious conflicts that set Europe ablaze. The Constitution and Bill of Rights were indeed crafted by men of the Enlightenment who rejected sectarian opinion like Washington, Jefferson, Franklin, Madison , Monroe, etc.. There wasn’t a bigot among them.

This is one of the worst columns I've seen in the OnFaith series. I call it one of the worst because it says nothing at all:

"God’s standards were quite explicit as well as implicit in all of the founding documents."

If you ask 10 different people the question "What are God's standards and how do they relate to the constitution?" you will get 10 different answers. It's no accident that questions about God and about how religion and government should co-exist in our country are constantly being asked and redefined. Far from being explicit or implicit, the founding fathers left the choice of religious belief up to the individual, not the government.

The fact that Mr. Colson knows how he defines God's standards, while important to him personally, has no bearing on anyone else's beliefs.

While I appreciate Huckabees reality check having to run a State Government...and reasonably well at that..having to keep a BALANCED BUDGET...

I will not give him a break to xianize this nation.

My predecessor did not either.

My Name is ISSA..

And I guess that the interpreter of the intent of the founding fathers ought to be a white, christian, anglo-saxon, male, property owner (although the kind of property that many of the constitution signers had back then are people who get to vote for, and even run for, president today), since we do want to make sure that the beliefs and attitudes of the interpreter match the founders. Give me a break jailbird.

While I appreciate the fact that Mike Huckabee is a decent and Godly man, you ignoring the very real fact that Barak Obama and John Edwards are devout Evangelical Christian's, too! And you'd have to add John McCain to the list, are wonderful, Godly, moral and just people.

>>Belief just adopts the natural instinct all animals have, including humans, to be moral, and takes credit for it.

"..belief just adopts the natural instinct all animals (I am presuming you mean cats, rats, elephants and the like), including humans, to be moral.

Well, isnt that special. This is the first person I have ever come across that has presented an analogy of the mind of an elephant and a human on an equal level.

Tell me then...Does an elephant concern him/herself with being moral? And if so, how did they explain that to you?

Ah yes, chalk another good one up for atheism. Real intelligent.

NOT

Are god's standards really that explicit? If they were, then why has the christian world suffered from religious wars throughout its history? Why the persecution of "heretics"? Why the violent disagreements about such matters as whether the divine and human natures of Christ are united or separate?

History teaches us quite clearly that either god's standards are not explicit; that even if they are, humans cannot interpret them; or both.

Mr. Colson: who will arbitrate disputes, you or Jim Wallis?

Are god's standards really that explicit? If they were, then why has the christian world suffered from religious wars throughout its history? Why the persecution of "heretics"? Why the violent disagreements about such matters as whether the divine and human natures of Christ are united or separate?

History teaches us quite clearly that either god's standards are not explicit; that even if they are, humans cannot interpret them; or both.

Mr. Colson: who will arbitrate disputes, you or Jim Wallis?

Dear BGone:

Please start taking fish oil - it might help.

Dear BGone:

Please start taking fish oil

>>BGone:
>>God's standards? Which God you taking about?

The one you will have no capacity of knowing with your type of 'enlightenment' (which is, actually, in fact, darkness...ring a bell?)

No ones in hell. No one is in heaven.

There is no 'sheol bridge'

Lucifer was not the burning bush.

Its all there. Read the book.

Sorry my friend...you are a know it all of knowing nothing.

Jibberish.

Apocalyptic Society via MODERN MORALITY is KiNG! Not Pre-Apocalyptic Biblical Morality!

Halllaluja!

This is the typical bull coming from a cultist. You seem to project your own sense of human inadequacy onto those who actually sought to create anew a conception of humanity and liberty. Guess what, Manson did the same thing with the Beatles. Of course he is still in jail.

As far as old Hufferbenzene goes, to elect someone as marginalizing as he is shows a great disrespect of what America is now today (even with our republican self-inflicted wounds and our flaws.) And please don't quote Novak as some kind of intellectual precedent. That guy is a complete joke.

When I came home yesterday I was greeted at the door by my dog, who was hungry. Instead of biting off my leg he followed me a little then kept nudging me, his way of asking for food.

Now where did my dog learn to be so moral as to not chomp on my leg and and instead politely nudged me for attention? Does my dog believe in God? Does my dog have the morals of a christian?

There is a reason morality exists and it would exist with or without religion. Morality existed before Christ and it will exist after Christ. Remember the Good Samaritan? Well, he was not a christian since no one was then, except maybe the deciples and Christ himself. And who passed the man by? Men of religion passed him by. It was the Good Samaritan, a man of unknown moral teaching, who stopped and helped. An average Joe, a non-christian.

Belief does nothing to instill morality. Belief just adopts the natural instinct all animals have, including humans, to be moral, and takes credit for it. Chuck, instead of teaching the bible to prison inmates you should consider teaching them to discover their innate morality. At least it is real.

God's standards? You mean the standards by which you and the rest of the Nixon mafia conducted yourselves while nearly destroying this democratic society. Or the standards that you adopted behind bars while paying for your transgressions. Mr. Colson, you are a phony of the highest degree. All of your god-talk does not change that.

"... you will see that the founders were insistent that this free society reflected the fundamental truths of “nature and nature’s God,” as Jefferson put it. God’s standards were quite explicit as well as implicit in all of the founding documents. ..."

Jefferson (in the Declaration of Independence) was referring to nature's god of Deism not the christian god of the bible. Jefferson openly rejected the christian god and the divinity of Jesus.

Confusing the Declaration of Independence with the Constitution is one thing, but he has also confused nature's god (of Deism) with the christian god of the bible.

Shouldn't a christian minister know the difference?

xferinoc:

I respectfully would like to ask a couple of questions so I'll understand you better.

1) How do "faith and reason" go together in the same sentence? What is your definition of "faith?"

2) Can you give me some insight into how the Bible dictates morality and ethics?

I know these are huge questions but short answers would do!

Jeff

Boy, it must be great to have such privileged knowledge about God and all that! Thanks for letting us in on the secret, Mr. Felon.

The founders were even more insistent that there be a clear separation of church and state in this country, and that this country would be based on a rule of law, not a rule of theology. I think Huckabee knew exactly what he was saying about the Constitution and Colson is just trying to spin it.

Chucky,
Listen to Mike Huckabee, in his own words, talk about changing the Constitution to fit "God's standards" and also listen to him defend what he said, saying that the Constitution is a "living breathing" document designed to be changed.

Go to:
http://www.kxmc.com/News/Nation/199572.asp
and click on the YouTube video. He begins talking about it a few minutes into the video.

Now Chucky, you know and I know that this is all about the GA and CO amendments being proposed for a 2008 referendum to their State Constitutions to add the "Human Life Amendment" which makes even a fertilized egg a "person" with as many rights as you have. A miscarriage would be an accidental death, or if it was due to poor prenatal care, possible negligent homocide. This amendment is also being pushed to be added to the US constitution. And it was this to which Huckabee was speaking, though only the evangelicals like yourself would have known that. Its called code words, sort of like those used in the good ol' Watergate days.

So what Huckabee is clearly doing is immersing himself in the evangelical movement and speaking to whatever they want to hear hoping for a VP position from the eventual winner of the republican nomination since that winner will need the evangelical vote to have any chance of beating a democrat. A sly political move but one that no one in the media seems to be talking about.

Chuck, please don't use this space to campaign. And don't pretend to know what Huckabee meant. Try using Occam's Razor--it's likely that Huckabee statement means what it sounds like it means.

NO BREAKS!, he absolutely meant it when he said that statement. If he didn't mean to say that, then he really doesn't have a clue and should not be leading this country. Look at the past 7+ years with the clueless president we have had.

(I do appreciate your statement regarding faith and reason and find it detrimental to modern society that most people understand these gifts as incompatible)

I'm a Christian but I have serious doubts that true original intent would reveal much of anything as far as this debate. A number of the founders were Deists, so while they believed in God, they would not accept many of the standards invoked by Huckabee.

It was Jefferson, after all, and not a 20th century leftist, who coined the term "wall of separation".

To say that we ought to hold the Constitution to God's standards instead of holding God to the Constitution's is a false choice. Christian Americans have two guides, and we must operate under both, and they do not concern each other.

The Constitution outlines the government and its relationship to the People; the Bible gives a glimpse of God and His relationship. One is a set of earthly limitations and powers; the other dictates morality and ethics.

Why is there a need to form either to the other?

Faith who's faith?
Nature and natures God. a Deist belief.
Problem. Is and was not God.
Butis organizes Relgion.
And head on run in to Theocrarcy.

Faith who's faith?
Nature and natures God. a Deist belief.
Problem. Is and was not God.
Butis organizes Relgion.
And head on run in to Theocrarcy.

Faith who's faith?
Nature and natures God. a Deist belief.
Problem. Is and was not God.
Butis organizes Relgion.
And head on run in to Theocrarcy.

"It [America] was founded, as Michael Novak wrote in his book On Two Wings on both faith and reason. They are never incompatible because human reason and faith are both gifts of God. If we understand that, we can put most of today’s issues in very clear perspective."

I think this is as close as it gets to a non-statement.

Let me give one a try: American will understand its foundations when we can reconcile our inner conscious realities with the challenges of the material cosmological constants, until such time as we find the unification theory mathematical equations that can quantititate our quantum experiences. When that happens, we'll understand most of today's issues in a very clear perspective.

"God’s standards were quite explicit as well as implicit in all of the founding documents."

There is ZERO explicit mention of any deity in the Constitution. Zero. Which makes you a liar, Charles.
Many people have great values that do NOT come from any Christianity, so your deity's "standards" are no more implicit in the Constitution than is Mohammed.

I can't believe Colson's load of lies is allowed to appear in this paper.

"Fundamental truths of nature and nature's god."

This comprehends any possible god and more importantly a vague deistic belief, very common among the highly educated men of the 18th century, including Jefferson, Madison and, quite possibly, Washington

Governor Huckabee, who has a long alliance with the Christian Dominionist movement, has considerably more in mind.

Mr Colson knows this. I wish he had the guts to condemn it.

"However, Huckabee has nothing over Obama as he does the same thing in a covert way, And I am a Democrat."

Then you're confused.

Obama has never said he'd like to rewrite the Constitution to be in line with the bible.

That was a stupid, and presidential disqualifying, statement that shows a man who can't separate his religious viewpoint from his political viewpoint.

Understand this, Chuck: many of us don't even want to hear about another's religion. People like you, and Huckabee, cram it down our throats.

I think religion should stay out of politics. Not because I do not believe but because I do not believe the politicians believe and I prefer my politics straight.

However, Huckabee has nothing over Obama as he does the same thing in a covert way, And I am a Democrat.

I think religion should stay out of politics. Not because I do not believe but because I do not believe the politicians believe and I prefer my politics straight.

However, Huckabee has nothing over Obama as he does the same thing in a covert way, And I am a Democrat.

You are totally correct Mr. Colson.

God's standards? Which God you taking about?

Did the founders mean this God, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul or did they mean the real God? The supernatural being in the burning bush was clearly the Devil Lucifer, a pretend and therefore a false God. Surely they did not mean Lucifer.

Last week we determined that there is but one deadly sin, blasphemy -worshiping false God. The punishment for all other sins, Adam and Eve, Cain, even the builders of the Tower of Babble and the adulteress Jesus saved were dished out somewhat trivial punishments while those who worshiped Lucifer were cast into hell.

When one recites the pledge and utters "under God" one blasphemes if one thinks the supernatural being in the burning bush. We must strive to educate the public about God before 86% of Americans alone end up in hell. Don't you think?