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There have been many tales spun around Halloween, The Samhain one is very popular with BBC surfers. A politically correct one is that the conquered Celts held on to the holiday to thumb the nose of their Roman conquerors. The truth is that all hallows eve, all hallows and all souls were a unit religious holiday for centuries in the UK. Most likely Henry VIII, Elizabeth, Cromwell’s Puritanism and the Restoration’s licentiousness created a new outlook on all these holidays.

If crass commercialism and pagan influences have changed completely a holiday, it is Christmas. Oliver Cromwell decreed that all decorations and entertainment were to be banned. The smell of roast goose was cause enough to be dragged before the authorities and Christmas recovered its pure religious meaning.

Not only did all of the Puritan changes disappear with the Restoration but Prince Albert, Queen Victoria’s consort added a pure pagan symbol to the holiday: The Christmas tree. This is a custom inherited from the pagan Norse of Northern Europe where they used to bring in a sapling pine –Thor- into their homes for the winter and cared for it and then in the spring replanted it. An allegory for telling the god that as they cared for him in dark winter, he should care for them – give them plentiful crops and fish – in the spring and summer.

Maybe we should ban all forms of worship from religion that originated in paganism. The result might not leave very much religion to look forward to

There have been many tales spun around Halloween, The Samhain one is very popular with BBC surfers. A politically correct one is that the conquered Celts held on to the holiday to thumb the nose of their Roman conquerors. The truth is that all hallows eve, all hallows and all souls were a unit religious holiday for centuries in the UK. Most likely Henry VIII, Elizabeth, Cromwell’s Puritanism and the Restoration’s licentiousness created a new outlook on all these holidays.

If crass commercialism and pagan influences have changed completely a holiday, it is Christmas. Oliver Cromwell decreed that all decorations and entertainment were to be banned. The smell of roast goose was cause enough to be dragged before the authorities and Christmas recovered its pure religious meaning.

Not only did all of the Puritan changes disappear with the Restoration but Prince Albert, Queen Victoria’s consort added a pure pagan symbol to the holiday: The Christmas tree. This is a custom inherited from the pagan Norse of Northern Europe where they used to bring in a sapling pine –Thor- into their homes for the winter and cared for it and then in the spring replanted it. An allegory for telling the god that as they cared for him in dark winter, he should care for them – give them plentiful crops and fish – in the spring and summer.

Maybe we should ban all forms of worship from religion that originated in paganism. The result might not leave very much religion to look forward to

There have been many tales spun around Halloween, The Samhain one is very popular with BBC surfers. A politically correct one is that the conquered Celts held on to the holiday to thumb the nose of their Roman conquerors. The truth is that all hallows eve, all hallows and all souls were a unit religious holiday for centuries in the UK. Most likely Henry VIII, Elizabeth, Cromwell’s Puritanism and the Restoration’s licentiousness created a new outlook on all these holidays.

If crass commercialism and pagan influences have changed completely a holiday, it is Christmas. Oliver Cromwell decreed that all decorations and entertainment were to be banned. The smell of roast goose was cause enough to be dragged before the authorities and Christmas recovered its pure religious meaning.

Not only did all of the Puritan changes disappear with the Restoration but Prince Albert, Queen Victoria’s consort added a pure pagan symbol to the holiday: The Christmas tree. This is a custom inherited from the pagan Norse of Northern Europe where they used to bring in a sapling pine –Thor- into their homes for the winter and cared for it and then in the spring replanted it. An allegory for telling the god that as they cared for him in dark winter, he should care for them – give them plentiful crops and fish – in the spring and summer.

Maybe we should ban all forms of worship from religion that originated in paganism. The result might not leave very much religion to look forward to

>>Er, the two societies (Greek and Rome during its Republican era) from which we draw our very form of government were pagan throughout their entire history.

Er, these two societies crumbled swiftly when paganism, among other things (..including Christianity's acceptance of pagan practices (bad move on Constantines, et. al. part)) finally took its full hold, escalating immorality and thus weakening the governments and populus, and finally, fragmentation of the empires.

Glad that certain major historical documents of our beloved country show the prevailing view of God, Him being creator and the importance of Him in our lives. Certainly glad it wasnt Zeus, Saturn or Apollo.

Lighten up.

The reason for the pagan festivals of Halloween and Yule are the shortening of the days. There is a need in the human psyche to fight against that by common celebration.

Paganism was never about either the Kleptocratic priesthood or the pagan gods. It is about man coping with both human nature and the natural world.

Religious requirements that attempt to ignore these natural needs tend to be disregarded by the masses, as they should be.

This is why I find those attempts to resist the natural pagan bent of the holiday rather laughable. Sometimes getting together and having fun is the best thing we can do, especially as the hours get long. Excess piety in these times is not required or even healthy.

"There is a fundamental reason why pagan practices are not the norm in civilized societies."

Er, the two societies (Greek and Rome during its Republican era) from which we draw our very form of government were pagan throughout their entire history.

"For most Christians though, it’s a missed opportunity for a much more meaningful celebration, remembering the saints that have gone before us."

Booooooorrrrinnnnnggggggg.

This is a very thoughtful article. I've never
been comfortable with the notion of Halloween,
and perhaps more so as a "celebration." I'm
also astonished at the effort put into the
decorations and the costumes.

This is the Watergate Charles Colson lecturing the rest of us about morality?

Many pagans are upset about the commercialization of a sacred holiday. But I was raised Catholic, which means catholic, inclusive and all-encompassing. Many pre-Christian faiths are respected as partial paths to enlightenment, and understanding different perspectives helps us understand our own.

When I was a kid, I went trick-or-treating on October 31 and then went to church the next day. Halloween is a harmless celebration of cultural traditions, and the annual reminder of Samhain and the feasts of All Hallows and All Saints are an opportunity for people to learn about our past and to achieve a better understanding of cultural and religious traditions.

Spending a lot of money on inside and outside decoration for any holiday does seem wasteful and a bit disrespectful; the money can go to better uses. That's true of Halloween, Christmas, Easter, the Fourth of July, etc.

Jesus Christ, Chuck! Give it a break!

For most of us, Halloween is not a celebration of mindless paganism, your protestations to the contrary not withstanding!

Halloween, for most of us, is a chance for children, and some adults, to put on costumes, ring doorbells and merrily declare, "Trick or Treat!!"

It's so typical of so-called evangelical christians to go around sticking SIN Labels on everything! If this is Witnessing for Christ, then, okay, good job, you've witnessed!

Now please go back to wherever you came from, Chuck!

Tell you what, you stop bothering us and we promise that we will avoid you, too!

Chuck is just upset that he never caught on as a Halloween mask like his boss Tricky Dick did. He's not even the most popular Chucky on Halloween.

I think Chucky's just upset that he never made it as a Halloween mask like Tricky Dick did. In fact, he's not even the most popular Chucky at Halloween.

I've enjoyed reading these posts. Most of the pagans come across pretty okay by me. Some of you might want to take yourselves a little less seriously, though. You're starting to come across like Christians.

And for 99.9999999% of us - THE VAST OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF AMERICANS ITS AN EXCUSE TO HAVE SOME LAUGHS!

You, sir, are a kook who should be spending time in jail for theft of innocent believer's dollars that you con them out of.

They don't need your hatered of others, your ignorance, nor your politics to get into heaven.

Go back to speaking with prisoners and please shut your trap towards the rest of us.

Thank you in advance for not stealing anymore.

I'm glad Chuck is so dedicated to religion since when he was first 'born again' it was right before his criminal sentencing for involvement in burglarizing the opposing political party office in order to keep Richard Nixon in power, and it looked like a shameless attempt at leniency on mr. colson's part. Now it is obvious that it was a true career change, albeit forced due to his disbarment, and one that has been very lucrative for him. Forgiveness, conversion, recidivism are all tied together. Here's to mr. colson serving as an example to Parole Boards everywhere....

Well, it's all the same in God's eyes, right? A murderer and rapist will inhabit the kingdom of heaven as long as he believes in Jesus, but I am doomed to eternal torture because God hasn't made his case well in my eyes.

Every year, we've got to listen to this sort of blathering from some simple-minded nut associating Halloween with Satanism.
Listen Chuck, I grew up Christian, going to Sunday School and singing in a children's choir. Every Halloween I went trick-or-treating, and my father got a big kick out of designing and/or making props for great costumes for me. For years I still had the elaborate gold-painted and detailed wooden scimitar he made for a pirate costume. One year he took a actual old-fashioned scythe handle and fitted it with a wooden blade for my Grim Reaper costume. Those times, my parents' involvement, and the ritual of going costumed into the cold, mysterious night air are very happy memories from childhood. Today's evangelical Christians and safety-paranoid parents who choose "alternative" celebrations are stealing those memories from their children.

On Tuesday I decorated my front yard for Halloween. Last night I lit my jack o'lanterns and gave out candy to neighborhood children, knowing many will have happy memories like mine. Today and tomorrow (All Saints and All Souls) I think about those who have gone before. This Sunday I will join, with joy, my fellow church choir members in singing "For All The Saints" in our All Saints celebration.

It's a rich time of year, Chuck. Your soul is all the poorer for not embracing this season in all its complexity and richness.

I will not be lectured to by an Evangelical Protestant concerning my Catholicism nor its attendant Irish folk customs, (nor for that matter some dreamy misinformed neo-pagan new agers.)

Halloween is of course Celtic and specifically Gaelic.

During the course of Ireland conversion to Christianity in the middle of the first millennium there are neither records of Christian martyrs nor any persecution of pagan holdouts, in fact in many cases there was a synthesis of the old pagan druidic religion and folk practices in the forming of what became the golden age of the Celtic Church. Nor in the Middle Ages are there any records of witch burning or pagan.

Up until the middle of the 19th century many folk Catholic practices with their roots in pre-Christian Ireland survived including Halloween, Lunasa and the Summer Soltice.

Note the only significant religious persecution in Ireland was that of the Reformation Protestants upon indigenous Irish Catholics.

The Puritans of the mid 1600's in Irish history were the equivalent of the Nazi's invading Poland.

Under Cromwell's Puritan army they reduced the native Irish population by a third, burning churches, priests and congregants alike. Check back in two weeks and ask me what I think of “Thanksgiving”!

Of course Protestant evangelicals were also quick to point out during the great Irish Famines of the mid 1800s was God's wrath upon the lazy superstitious Catholic Irish.

Of course during that famine these same evangelicals supported Laissez Faire economic policy, private faith based charity (i.e. coerced conversion for food) and an establishment Protestant Church ...... funny, sounds exactly like the Bush Administration’s social policies.

re: "For most Christians though, it’s a missed opportunity for a much more meaningful celebration, remembering the saints that have gone before us."

Not to worry, Chuck. There's little reason to fear that you'll even manage to rise to the level of sainthood. Once again, in your mission to slander those who don't share your rabid zealotry, you've shown us why they are so much better by comparison.

>>Re: Rev. 12.9

>>I would humbly advise that anyone afraid of dragons start by slaying the ones in their own mind. You may be surprised to find out that the Great Beast is nothing but your own shadow!

Actually, the 'Great Beast' you refer will be, according to scripture, a conglomerate of nations just before Christ's return..perhaps a final version of the Holy Roman Empire, led by two..a state leader and a representative of a leading church.

Regards.

>>Why should I believe in a system that tells me I am a sin-ridden murdering rapist for being human?

Not to worry. You certainly wont be told youre a murdering rapist if you are not one.

Many of us believe, also, that our current human system can tell us who murdering rapists, et. al. are. Those who do not believe even the current human system is capable of doing so sometimes come across as someone who may not believe anyone but themselves.

Regards.

good point Luke: let's put it another way. I was raised Catholic, and gradually came to the conclusion that the faith I thought I had was illegitimate. I was even in Opus Dei in high school. I now hold myself to moral standards that are just as high as they ever were while I believed. How can that be? The species must be capable of it without religious motivation (no, it's not just a lingering residual effect). In fact, I believe my morality is resting on firmer ground than ever, no longer predicated on fear of punishment or longing for reward.

You know what's scarier than imaginary ghosts and goblins? A president whose insecurity and megalomania resulted in what was arguably the single most destructive abuse of executive power in American history, coupled with a prolonged bloodbath in a country in which we had minimal tangible interest, and an even more minimal grasp of its culture and political system. Nixon or Bush...take your pick.

To read Mr. Colson's pontifications about morality and generally sanctimonious tripe, considering his role in the older of these two blots in our nation's history, is almost too funny to be outrageous, except that it isn't.

Re: Rev. 12.9

I would humbly advise that anyone afraid of dragons start by slaying the ones in their own mind. You may be surprised to find out that the Great Beast is nothing but your own shadow!

So what you are saying is that supreme morality comes from God, simply because he isn't human? Why do you dislike humanity so much? Why are we the ones who are flawed? You can't attribute all the "good" things to God and all the "bad" to mankind and the Devil. Explain how God's morality is better than that of human beings? Simply because there is a book about it from someone with whom we can't communicate so we can't know whether or not he has changed his mind? That's not a sound basis for morality. Why is it this weak reward/punishment system (something we should grow out of when we are pre-teens at the latest)is supreme morality. "Believe in me, get good stuff and spend eternity in a good place, or suffer in torment for eternity." Love abound. Why should I believe in a system that tells me I am a sin-ridden murdering rapist for being human?

Chuck says Halloween is 'a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on'. Too bad they didn't likewise turn their backs on mindless Christianity.

Memory, or the act of recall, or the reproducing of something learned...is far from unreliable... rather, it is powerful. A tool we all, hopefully, use to remember lessons past.

Regards

fools!

praise not your god, praise the sun, the light energy of our solar system, the giver of life...!

forget abrahamic religious dogma and remember your true existence, the one of energy, of light

remember the goal of existence...to further it, to continue our goal of becoming pure light energy like the sun and we shall spread our life to other planets

this is the only battle--pure energy against nothingness

Ego Nemo is right.
Last night in my neighborhood you could hear the pleases and thank-yous from across the street and children visited people they had never met.

And there's an issue here about America -- Colson, who claims to be a faithful American, venerates an old European custom and suggests it be applied in American without change. Americans do not do that.

Americans take their ancestral customs and reshape them with American ideals of fairness, access, capitalism and optimism.

Since the founding of America, Halloween (and Christmas, for that matter) have not been about duplicating Europe in America. They have been about opportunities to express what is good about America with the best of what every culture in the world has to offer. This is not multicultural claptrap. This is about America s a nation demanding, as it were, access to the best of humankind and then redistributing it to any person who shares America's ideals.

What Colson is missing is an opportunity to praise the country he loves. Instead, since it is the way he makes money, he takes it as an opportunity to criticize things that are bedrock American.

To say American Halloween is only about candy and corporate profits is to be against fun and capitalism. He has nostalgia for the seventh century (What fun!).

Perhaps Colson has shown his true colors -- He wishes America become of Medieval state where nothing has changed since the seventh century.

Why does Chuck Colson talk about All Saint's Day as if it isn't celebrated any more? All he needs to do is visit his local Catholic Church.

I suggest that when Colson speaks of Christians, he leaves out Catholics on purpose.

Also, Colson is King of the Party Poopers. To talk so gravely about one day during the year when neighbors are generous to children and families walk the streets with smiles misses the entire point of the Americanization of Halloween.
Americans turned Halloween into a celebration of neighborhood, community, generosity and fun.

Only the Crabbiest Neighbor of Them All, Chuck Colson, could find fault with neighbors being nice to neighbors.

OMG! I SWEAR that was an accident!

Anonymous,

Memory is unreliable...

"I respectfully disagree. 2 Tim 3:1-5 paints a scenario much closer to todays world in the overall context than what I personally remember, overall, some 4-5 decades ago."

I can MAKE the newspaper's horoscope match what happened in my life EVERY day!

Anonymous,

Memory is unreliable...

"I respectfully disagree. 2 Tim 3:1-5 paints a scenario much closer to todays world in the overall context than what I personally remember, overall, some 4-5 decades ago."

I can MAKE the newspaper's horoscope match what happened in my life EVERY day!

Anonymous,

Memory is unreliable...

"I respectfully disagree. 2 Tim 3:1-5 paints a scenario much closer to todays world in the overall context than what I personally remember, overall, some 4-5 decades ago."

I can MAKE the newspaper's horoscope match what happened in my my life EVERY day!

>>..old material.

I respectfully disagree. 2 Tim 3:1-5 paints a scenario much closer to todays world in the overall context than what I personally remember, overall, some 4-5 decades ago.

My personal opinion is that Charles Colson has no vision of grandeur that he is like Christ himself...rather, he touts that true Christian moral standards (not mans interpretation or our flawed way of thinking) is the best guideline to go by.

Human beings are the ones who create bad PR at times. God is letting us do our own thing by our own request.

Regards.

when you've got them by their jack o lanterns, their hearts and minds will follow.

Anonymous, it's too bad that people have been believing that the world is just like it says in Rev. 12.9 since it was published. Makes it so much easier to see how it isn't true. By the way, we don't condemn Chuck for what he has done in his past - we condemn anyone who touts morality like they are Christ himself yet are nothing more than drug and sex-addicted hypocrites. Your God has bad PR and old material.

Charles Colson is a human being who has tried to make changes in his life for the better. It is easy to tell who has forgiveness, understanding and compassion on this thread, those that realize we are all human, make mistakes and many of us try to make things better for others and ourselves because of the things we have done in the past that we are not too proud of.

Ah, Chuck? How about it's because it's fun to celebrate Halloween? What kid (and kid-at-heart) would not enjoy dressing up and getting candy? Of course, you and your brethen have the right to sit in your basement and have a marathon praying session on Halloween. Heck, I'll even let you skip turkey on Thanksgiving. It's not Christian, and it's just another excuse for committing sin of gluttony and sloth anyway. Just leave us alone with our fun. And don't knock consumerism. Us mindless consumers keep the economy afloat. Was it not our All-Knowing, All-Wise Great Leader who told us to shop after 9/11? Who are you, Chuck, to disagree with Him?

Speaking as a "christian", I find it amazing that the pagans have a much more accurate understanding of the "Christian" holidays, than the Christians do. You'd think the "Christians" never read an encyclopedia or a history book. Or for that matter the bible (2 Cor 6:15-20).

Yet they happily go forth and celebrate the very holidays Paul condemned

It really proves the point of Matt 7:21-23

Covering up for me made you nuts, Chuck.

Awful hot here; can't wait to see you.

Dick

Covering up for me made you nuts, Chuck.

Awful hot here; can't wait to see you.

Dick

Covering up for me made you nuts, Chuck.

Awful hot here; can't wait to see you.

Dick

Covering up for me made you nuts, Chuck.

Awful hot here; can't wait to see you.

Dick

>>In memory of those killed for the name Witch, if not for the fact:

Main Entry: 1witch
Pronunciation: \ˈwich\
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English wicche, from Old English wicca, masculine, wizard & wicce, feminine, witch; akin to Middle High German wicken to bewitch, Old English wigle divination, and perhaps to Old High German wīh holy — more at victim
Date: before 12th century
1: one that is credited with usually malignant supernatural powers; especially : a woman practicing usually black witchcraft often with the aid of a devil or familiar : sorceress — compare warlock
2: an ugly old woman : hag
3: a charming or alluring girl or woman
4: a practitioner of Wicca
5: witch of agnesi

How does one know which witches you speak of? Merriam-Webster gives 5 examples. Please advise.

One also stated earlier:

>>..There are christians pretending to be devils at my door

Again, Merriam Webster:

Main Entry: 1Chris·tian
Pronunciation: \ˈkris-chən, ˈkrish-\
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin christianus, adjective & noun, from Greek christianos, from Christos
Date: 1526
1 a: one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ b (1): disciple 2 (2): a member of one of the Churches of Christ separating from the Disciples of Christ in 1906 (3): a member of the Christian denomination having part in the union of the United Church of Christ concluded in 1961
2: the hero in Bunyan's Pilgrim's Progress

With at least a cursory comparison between these two definitions, it seems that devils are associated with witches and/or pagans....not Christians.

Folks, I think there are some that are trying to snooker us with false information on these threads. And its not the Christians.

From my Samhain rite to the ancestors-

From the dawn of your birth
To the sunset of your death
We honor you.
From the missions you completed
To the duties left undone
We honor you.
From your time beyond the veil
Til your Earth entrance back again
May the Gods support you,
May the Spirits surround you,
May our healing love reach you,
From this moment until the end of time.
So Mote it Be

In memory of those killed for the name Witch, if not for the fact:

Briget Bishop-hanged June 10th,
Martha Carrier-hanged Aug.19,
Giles Cory-Pressed to death Sept. 19
Ann Foster-Died in jail
Sarah Good- Hanged July 19
George Jacobs-hanged Sept. 22
Alice Parker-Hanged Sept.22
Mary Parker-hanged Sept.22
John Willard-Hanged Aug.19
Tempest Smith-age 12- suicide/Feb. 20,2001

"By the mystery all surrounding
With this breath by which we call you
In the flickering of the firelight
We say your names within our hearts
It echoes through time unending
In the protection of this evening
May your presence wash through us
And together we are one.
You who have passed to another plane
We remember you."

We also remember those who came before us, who have cleared the path for us so that we do not have to face the same kind of harrassment that they did. Those like Starhawk and Selena Fox and the hundreds of others, some of who have gone on to Summerland...and some who are still here doing what they do to make all things better.

Mindless? Chucky... no not mindless, but resigned to those like you who have a lock on their minds. You are not mindless, it is petrified.

terra

SATC:

Thank god. That, my friend is a scary thought.

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Pleeeaaaseeeeeeeee Heeeeelllllp Meeeeeeee!!!

There are christians pretending to be devils at my door threatening blackmail unless I fill their vile pumpkins with sugar (I can't tell if this is plain sugar or just sugar coated sugar).

Sorry, false alarm, they were just devils and demons; but imagine actual christians knocking on your door.

Thank, my friend is a scary thought.

Yes Cardfan

Imagine the "mindless paganism" of ritualistically noting the end of the Harvest and the border between death and life and our connection to our ancestors

instead of worsshipping the brutal bloody sacrificial father-sponsored crucifixion of a son

and then drinking his blood and eating his body each day or week.

>>At worst, it's a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on

Really? Paganism like counting beads? Like kneeling to a cross? Like finding colored eggs on a spring Sunday afternoon? Like "laying on of hands"? Like "speaking in tongues"?

What's mindless is the crippling arrogance of some "christians". I've said it before and I'll say it again. Some "christians" give Christianity a bad name.

>>Anon: I believe that -your- responses are lame.

With all due respect, feel the same way about yours

***So we have a stand-off on this point. Not the end of the world, pun intended.

>>An argument based on some writings found in a book that is a mish-mash, compiled over hundred of years, translated multiple times and has as many versions as human whims---has the shakiest of foundations.

The view of a skeptic. Tell me, do you stop at stop signs? Why?

***The stop sign is there (as opposed to, say, writing a gospel how-many-years after Jesus left). There is no obfuscation or contradiction in its writing or its intent.

>>To further make the leap from saying that the world is in terrible shape to "See! It's all predicted right here in Revelation!" further weakens your position.

To be aware of the terrible things that go on in this world and look to a day when it will be better is a good vocation. Keep your head in the sand, if you wish.

***I think that if there is a god that s/he would want us to grow up and not hasten the destruction of what was created. I have not my head in the sand but upright and seeing, helping make the world a better place by -doing.- My vocation is to work for better to-day, not just wish that the End Times somehow "rescue" me from this existence.

>>I notice you didn't include any quotes about stoning children who sass you (among a host of others that have nothing to do with love).

I notice you didnt include any pagan history.
(And you obviously missed the part that man overall has decided his own way of doing things..)

***Why should I? Others have done well so far, and I'm not professing to be someone (Pagan, Christian, whatever) who goes by a book. Hence, no book.

>>Further, if the Pagans' rituals are so horrible, godless, etc. (my words), then why would the Church coopt them?

Rev 12:9

***Stealing is against one of the commandments, no?

>>Oh, and I agree with a previous poster that the Rapture/End Times/Whatever is allegorical, just like Adam and Eve. Think about it--they only had sons, which means we are all the product of incest.

If every jot and tittle of history was written, every minute of every hour of every day of every.....that would be some pretty big books, you think? Your comment is noted in the context it was sent...no thought ahead of time.

***Funny how you get selective about which passages we're supposed to take literally and which we're supposed to take with a grain of salt or ignore. I must've missed the appendix in the Bible with those instructions.

Matthew: "Halloween is an evil pagan tradition that must be stopped. In our Christian Nation, there is no room for paganism, withcraft, or satan worship. Halloween should be outlawed."

You are such a caricature of a right-wing fundamentalist, that I can't believe you're for real. If you're a liberal Christian or atheist in disguise, please cut it out. It's immoral to use such dishonest tactics to make fundamentalists look bad. They're doing fine without your help.

Anonymous-

Your posts still read like you are trying to score points, not have a rational discussion on any topic. The most that I can understand from them is you believe Revelations literally, and are dismissive of any viewpoints but your own.

Honestly, your posts are no more than mental masturbation. Well, at least one person is getting pleausre from your posts.

Happy Halloween!

El Viejo

>>Anon: I believe that -your- responses are lame.

With all due respect, feel the same way about yours

>>An argument based on some writings found in a book that is a mish-mash, compiled over hundred of years, translated multiple times and has as many versions as human whims---has the shakiest of foundations.

The view of a skeptic. Tell me, do you stop at stop signs? Why?

>>To further make the leap from saying that the world is in terrible shape to "See! It's all predicted right here in Revelation!" further weakens your position.

To be aware of the terrible things that go on in this world and look to a day when it will be better is a good vocation. Keep your head in the sand, if you wish.

>>I notice you didn't include any quotes about stoning children who sass you (among a host of others that have nothing to do with love).

I notice you didnt include any pagan history.
(And you obviously missed the part that man overall has decided his own way of doing things..)

>>Further, if the Pagans' rituals are so horrible, godless, etc. (my words), then why would the Church coopt them?

Rev 12:9

>>Oh, and I agree with a previous poster that the Rapture/End Times/Whatever is allegorical, just like Adam and Eve. Think about it--they only had sons, which means we are all the product of incest.

If every jot and tittle of history was written, every minute of every hour of every day of every.....that would be some pretty big books, you think? Your comment is noted in the context it was sent...no thought ahead of time.

Scientician:

>>Shall we discuss history or shant we? Or does it depend on when it helps your position?

History is all over the net, in books, commentaries. Where shall we start? No dependence...its all there. Are you saying you need help in finding accounts of the subject du jour?

>>ender:
>>Its anonymous here, and probably also in the real world. It wants to earn witness points, but the home schooling left it so unprepared for social interaction that it must repeat juvenille attempts at 'witnessing' on line. Instead, it just attacks others, and can't even spread xtian goo like a good little choir boy.

>>Its sad really. Lets all light a samhain fire and maybe sacifice a goat for anon boy. Don't cook the goat though. Trolls like anon prefer them raw. Just throw the goat over the side of the bridge, he'll scarf it up later.

You know, I have never retorted to you one jot, but can certainly see the outpouring of love that you have.

Homeschooled? No - public schooled and colleged

Attack others? Called no one a Troll yet, myself
..nor raw meat eater, juvenille attempter, it, 'choir boy'. Have you?

So unprepared for social interaction? President of a Public Speakers club

Do you do anything but call people trolls?

And speaking of the "altar of consumerism"---what about the multi-billion dollar Christian book, music and thingamabob industry? Are Christianity and the Bible so weak that they must be interpreted and propped up with supplementary books and artifacts?

I suspect that Colson has benefitted financially from his role as a Christian author and purveyor of
Christianity.

Chuckie, The same thing could be said about your form of Christianity:

At best, it's an excuse to ask total strangers for money and votes. At worst, it's a manifestation of the mindless religious intolerance that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on.

Its anonymous here, and probably also in the real world. It wants to earn witness points, but the home schooling left it so unprepared for social interaction that it must repeat juvenille attempts at 'witnessing' on line. Instead, it just attacks others, and can't even spread xtian goo like a good little choir boy.

Its sad really. Lets all light a samhain fire and maybe sacifice a goat for anon boy. Don't cook the goat though. Trolls like anon prefer them raw. Just throw the goat over the side of the bridge, he'll scarf it up later.

Anon said:

"Sorry, now swords pointed at pagans in this day and age...and still, no majority. Stay in the present, my friend. Thats where I am talking from."

Then later:

"Methinks your not the only Pagan, are you? Do you read history? Or all historians right wing conservatives to you?"

Shall we discuss history or shant we? Or does it depend on when it helps your position?

Anon: I believe that -your- responses are lame.

An argument based on some writings found in a book that is a mish-mash, compiled over hundred of years, translated multiple times and has as many versions as human whims---has the shakiest of foundations.

To further make the leap from saying that the world is in terrible shape to "See! It's all predicted right here in Revelation!" further weakens your position.

I notice you didn't include any quotes about stoning children who sass you (among a host of others that have nothing to do with love).

Further, if the Pagans' rituals are so horrible, godless, etc. (my words), then why would the Church coopt them?

Oh, and I agree with a previous poster that the Rapture/End Times/Whatever is allegorical, just like Adam and Eve. Think about it--they only had sons, which means we are all the product of incest.

Anonymous, what is your point? If you have no desire for honest give and take, or wish to learn anything, why are you here? I'll assume you are a Christian of some flavor by your references to Revelations; is this your manner of "witnessing"?

'Will somebody tell me how "own your brother" and "beat your brother" are compatible with "love your brother"?'

Pierre JC --

It isn't, of course. But supernaturalists WILL defend it through nonsense -- it's called "pretzel logic."

Jesus defended not only the right to own slaves, but the right of the slave's owner to beat the slave. Will somebody tell me how "own your brother" and "beat your brother" are compatible with "love your brother"?

>>You were the one who made the blanket statement that Pagan rituals were about nothing but debauchery.

'Nothing but debauchery' No, I did not say that. Single words 'Debauchery' and 'Revelry' does not read 'Nothing but debauchery'. C'mon now...my teenager retorts more truthfully than that. Dont be on edge so much to grasp at retorting with an added fluff.

>>I was merely pointing out the error of your generalization.

And I am merely pointing out our obvious embellishments.

Poor ol' Chuck. Hates them evil spirits. But not his own supernatural nonsense.

Pssst, Chuck -- no such thing as witches. Mom wuz right.

matthew: this is not a christian nation, never was, and hopefully never will be. many of our founding fathers hated christians, and put pen to paper to say so. and our constitution says that people whose faith tells them that halloween is evil are free to believe that, but must let those who don't completely alone.

and why exactly should we ban something that the church so cleverly coopted for itself? and how exactly can Chuck spin a story of stealing a pagan tradition into a message of enlightenment rather than crass opportunism?

Halloween is an evil pagan tradition that must be stopped. In our Christian Nation, there is no room for paganism, withcraft, or satan worship. Halloween should be outlawed.

I meant only panelist...

Starhawk is the only one fully on point here. I agree with her that Halloween is the most fun holiday in our country. To Starhawk, this holiday has a deeper spiritual significance which I can also respect.

Tonight, our neighborhood will be filled with adorable trick-or-treaters usually escorted by a parent(some older, and not escorted), and it happens to be one of the few times when people are induced to stroll around their neighborhood and engage in small talk with their neighbors and friends. There is nothing sinister happening here - and devil worshipping is kept to a minimum - Hah!

What I can't respect are the people who insist on characterizing Halloween as something offensive to general religious or moral sensibilities. Why can't I believe in God AND still enjoy Halloween as the holiday whose main secular theme is fun?

**Methinks your not the only Pagan, are you? Do you read history? Or all historians right wing conservatives to you?**

Down, boy. (Or is it girl?)
I never said I was the only Pagan.

You were the one who made the blanket statement that Pagan rituals were about nothing but debauchery. I was merely pointing out the error of your generalization.

Yes, I read history. And theology, and thealogy. And anthropology. I am aware that people of all religious bents have done and still do nasty things to other people in the name(s) of their god(s). That does not change the fact that you paint with way too broad a brush.

"At worst, it's a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on."

And one day, the same will be said of Christmas. Happy Halloween!!

"a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on" strikes me as a rather value-laden judgement on non-christian religions. You and Ann Coulter would probably get along just fine.

If God was as miserable as some of the people that know His Name, then it is no wonder that so many people don't want anything to do with Him, but He isn't.

I have met God and He is Love, a Being of Pure Love.

As a child, I went out trick or treating and I think God was happy that some of His children were allowed to have a childhood.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

>>As for Revelation, methinks John should have laid off the 'shrooms before putting quill to parchment.

I guess truth hurts to some. If you dont believe this world is greatly deceived in just about every corner...I guess keep your head in the sand. Sorry, John's words will stay.

>>If you're reading Revelations literally instead of allegorically, you are "not worthy of the compliment of rational dissent".

Ah, the goddess (or maybe youre her representative) has passed judgement. Im not worthy. And your worthy to know if Revelation is allegory over literal.

((((((((((((((((((((((((LOL))))))))))))))))))))))
(((((((((((((((((((((((ROFL))))))))))))))))))))))

Sorry..but thats just toooooooooo funny.

>>I've been Pagan for over a decade, and have not once been debauched.

Methinks your not the only Pagan, are you? Do you read history? Or all historians right wing conservatives to you?

Pretty lame response by you...sorry.

"But for most Americans and retailers, the celebration has become another feast at the altar of consumerism"

Shut up about consumerism, Chuck. We all know you got paid for this article. And, from the look of your picture, you are wearing expensive suit to match that fat salary or yours.

You're just one of those blowhards that feel that it is okay for you to enjoy rewards, but deny them to everyone else.

"At worst, it's a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on."

You're absolutely right. The Christian traditions of child molestation, The Inquisition, and smallpox blankets are much better traditions that respecting harmony and balance.

Go back and read a history book, you moron!

I was hoping that your prison work would have actually brought you enlightenment. Unfortunately, all it has done is inflate your ego.

Anon:

You got something against revelry? There's nothing wrong with having fun for the sake of fun, but that's not what Pagan rituals are all about.
I've been Pagan for over a decade, and have not once been debauched. No one but my husband has ever carted me off to the bedchamber after lissing me under the mistletoe. Am I doing something wrong?

Yes, many Pagan rituals have to do with fertility - it's an earth-based religion. Early Pagans were highly aware of the fact that their survival depended on plants and animals reproducing in large numbers. And with high infant and child mortality rates, and shorter average life spans, survival of humankind also depended on reproducing in bulk. The fact that the importance of sexuality is recognized and that it is celebrated rather than bound in layer upon layer of guilt and shame does not make it bad.

As for Revelation, methinks John should have laid off the 'shrooms before putting quill to parchment.

"Posted on October 31, 2007 09:26

Anonymous:
>>Not mindless, dearie. The trees, the eggs, the jack-o-lanterns, etc. - all have a specific purpose

Correct. Revelry. Debauchery. Fiery rituals and the like. The list goes on and on. Even the 'ol kiss-your-friends-wife-under-the-mistletoe then haul her up to the bed chamber has a purpose in paganism (lots of rituals with women that cant be mentioned on this forum) and just has so much to do with the celebration on the alleged birthdate of Christ (who actually was born nearer the fall of the year when census was taken at the time of harvest).

Rev 12:9. The book kind of tells it all, albeit much to the chagrin of some."

If you're reading Revelations literally instead of allegorically, you are "not worthy of the compliment of rational dissent".

I can understand and sympathize with the author if he feels that his holy day (i.e. All Saints) is being overshadowed by celebration of a secular holiday with roots in another religion. If he would like to call on his fellow Christians to celebrate All Saints, he is more than welcome to do so. In fact, I agree with that aspect of his argument, though celebrating Halloween and All Saints are not mutually exclusive.

However, his comment about "mindless paganism" is completely uncalled for. As a Pagan, I feel no need to attack or belittle his religion or holidays. Why does he feel a need to attack and belittle my holidays? It's bad enough to see such comments in a private setting; seeing them in a forum for interfaith dialog, however, is very unsettling. I've been active in the local interfaith community for years and know how much damage such careless comments can cause.

As a child, I was raised Christian, and I have great respect for people who practice the religion in a respectful manner. In Sunday school, we used to sing a song whose refrain proclaimed: "They will know we are Christians by our love." On the whole, this statement is a good definition of the faith of my Christian friends. Regardless of their like or dislike for another person's perspective, they are usually very good at holding love in their hearts, following what they see as the example of Jesus. Where, then, is the love in this author's heart for the people he disagrees with? If it was simply a careless statement rather than a sign of disrespect or hatred, then I sincerely hope it will not be repeated in the future.

>>Not mindless, dearie. The trees, the eggs, the jack-o-lanterns, etc. - all have a specific purpose

Correct. Revelry. Debauchery. Fiery rituals and the like. The list goes on and on. Even the 'ol kiss-your-friends-wife-under-the-mistletoe then haul her up to the bed chamber has a purpose in paganism (lots of rituals with women that cant be mentioned on this forum) and just has so much to do with the celebration on the alleged birthdate of Christ (who actually was born nearer the fall of the year when census was taken at the time of harvest).

Rev 12:9. The book kind of tells it all, albeit much to the chagrin of some.

Hey, all you negative commentators. Cut it out. Stop picking on ol' Chuck. Better to have him writing some puff piece on Halloween than trying to cope with issues he knows nothing about, like how to be a good Christian, and, if you are one, how to live your religion without violating the principle of the separation of church and state.

Listen, Chuck, ol' buddy. Ignore these neighing nabobs of negativism. I'm already looking forward to your review of the origins of Thanksgiving and your skewing all those myths that have grown up around the first T'giving--if there was one at all. If Jesus had wanted us to have Thanksgiving, he would have given it to us. Instead, all he ever did was observe Passover. Like he was a Jew or something.

Best reponse I've seen so far on the net to the shouts of "Hallowe'en should be more religious" from Christians:

"I disagree. I got dressed up in a funny costume and pretended to drink blood.
Where's the similarity with religion there?
Oh."

Anon:
**Seriously! Millions of Christians put up Christmas trees, hide Easter eggs, and send the kids out to trick or treat without even wondering why, and Colson has the plums to call Pagans 'mindless'?

Because thats where all of what you state started...with pagans. Mindless revelry with no substance whatsoever.**

Not mindless, dearie. The trees, the eggs, the jack-o-lanterns, etc. - all have a specific purpose.

>>Mad Love:

>>Seriously! Millions of Christians put up Christmas trees, hide Easter eggs, and send the kids out to trick or treat without even wondering why, and Colson has the plums to call Pagans 'mindless'?

Because thats where all of what you state started...with pagans. Mindless revelry with no substance whatsoever.

>>Paganplace:

>>Swear to the Gods, Mad, anyone adds up all what you said and figures how these guys get off doing what they do with their persecution complex undisturbed probably gets some kind of psychic X-prize.

>>In the meantime, maybe they could ease up on the rest of the world, instead of 'spending the meek's inheritance.'

>>Gods.

These, who follow the perpetrators of religious confusion, maybe could ease up too.

Sad that pagans, and Christians alike, dont seem to comprehend the reality that Rev. 12:9 foresaw...the state of a world we are living in this very day...a very deceived, whole world.

Swear to the Gods, Mad, anyone adds up all what you said and figures how these guys get off doing what they do with their persecution complex undisturbed probably gets some kind of psychic X-prize.

In the meantime, maybe they could ease up on the rest of the world, instead of 'spending the meek's inheritance.'

Gods.

Seriously! Millions of Christians put up Christmas trees, hide Easter eggs, and send the kids out to trick or treat without even wondering why, and Colson has the plums to call Pagans 'mindless'?

Okay, first the Christians steal the Holidays from the Pagans. Then Christian society turns them into vehicles for crass consumerism. Then later day Christian "authorities" like Chuck here bemoan the fact. And hey! Why not throw in a parting shot at the Pagans on your way out of the article? All in the spirit of Christ, of course!

Guess what Chuck... Pagans UNDERSTAND what they are celebrating! Shame about the Christians though…

Why, thank you, esteemed dead literary guy. :)

And, Mr. Shreve... No. Mr. Colson's history is most definitely *not* good. While it may be in touch with a history of lies, his 'history' doesn't actually fit with the idea that these are human beings he's talking about, namely our much-demonized ancestors.

Simple fact is, that kind of mindlessness he accuses of our ancestors of.... Just don't fly without a world of corporate kickbacks, or the Vatican equivalent.

Seriously. This dude wouldn't last a week in the life of our ancestors. Never mind that of some of the modern people he demonizes for political purposes. Frankly, I'm not sure he's ever wiped his own arse in his life.

You don't talk like that about others unless you're *totally detached* from how people live.

Colson vs the Pagans

Lets compare the evidence on this site.

Starhawk is humane, loving, wise, historically informed, culturally broadly informed.

Colson is mean, narrow-minded, illogical, riven with historical errors, and supremicist with less than no reason.

Give me the Pagans anytime (Paganplace, Wiccan, Terra, all models of wisdom and sense and humanity).

They give us one lovely model of spirituality. Colson gives us column after column of distorted moral infantilism.

Mr. Colson's history is good, and I agree with his characterization of Halloween as another feast of consumerism. I take issue with his "mindless paganism." I'm sure that pagan believers were just as mindful as Christian believers. For most people it is easier and less mindful to live in a world of black and white with hierarchically blessed dogma, than to be a thoughtful, mindful student.

Mr. Colson's history is good, and I agree with his characterization of Halloween as another feast of consumerism. I take issue with his "mindless paganism." I'm sure that pagan believers were just as mindful as Christian believers. It must be wonderful to live in a world of black and white as Mr. Colson does.

"There is a fundamental reason why pagan practices are not the norm in civilized societies."

Because early Christians claimed those Pagan holidays for their own and renamed them in an attempt to convert Pagans?

>> I can feel the "superiority" just dripping from his/her posts

"Dripping" adjectives and "superiority" deflections are not effective. Sorry. Seems wiccans and pagans like to make their comments about certain other faiths and just dont understand that others have their opinions too.

Again, there is a basic, fundamental reason why
these types of faith are not generally accepted.
And its not because I 'said it'...take a poll.

>>I will direct no more posts his/her way, for fear of being flamed.

Sorry, again, no flames here. The Wizard of Oz was not real. She didnt really melt. Nobody is out to melt you.

I'm beginning to think our anonymous poster is the same "Anon-chan" who tried to help Frank Collins against the evil hordes. I can feel the "superiority" just dripping from his/her posts. Properly chastised and humbled, I will direct no more posts his/her way, for fear of being flamed.

>>Gimme a break. You claim that the people are 'sinful and in need of authoritarian guidance' when they don't agree with you, then claim that your many factions constitute a 'majority' when you want to claim dominion.

'You claim....'...I dont recall writing what you just wrote.

Ohhhhh...you must think you can read my mind. I seeee.

I guess pagans just 'know all'....interesting.

Sorry, though, youre wrong.

Unbelievable. Such gall. '...You claim....'

"At best, it's an excuse to ask total strangers for candy. At worst, it's a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on."

Wrong again, Chucky.

At best, and at purest, it's a celebration of the final harvest of the year, the turning toward winter, and the remembrance of those who have left this life in the past year.
Halloween candy, like Christmas or Easter candy, is lagniappe.
If you bothered to actually do a little research, maybe even ask a real Pagan or two, you would know that. You would also find that we are far from mindless regarding our traditions, practices, and observances. At least we know WHY we bring evergreens into the house, decorate trees, and kiss under the mistletoe in late December, and why we dye eggs in the spring. Christians do these things, along with a lot of other holiday activities,a nd have no idea why - they just grew up doing them - it's "tradition." As a matter of fact, it's all Pagan tradition.

"For most Christians though, it’s a missed opportunity for a much more meaningful celebration, remembering the saints that have gone before us."

Too bad you miss out on the opportunity. It's part of our meaningful celebration.

Merry Meet, PaganPlace. These "flag-wavers" give me heartburn. Ask them what they love about America, and they'll yell, "Our Freedoms!" But let some poor chump try to exercise one of those freedoms, and watch out!

I think Wiccan, if we were 'The Majority,' we'd have a whole other set of problems that would be a whole other challenge.

Last I heard, in America, you didn't have to be 'The Majority' to have rights, dignity, and a voice.

We're just dealing with certain nameless people who both claim 'the will of the people' and that they are a 'persecuted minority' whenever it suits their chosen overlords.

I tend to think they're lashing out at certain minorities because they can't accept those overlords been *using them* with false promises of wealth and certainty.

Everything the elected officials that promise to punish those different comes out backwards, but they also say to blame the Pagan up the block for not getting their piece of Calvinist divine favor, while ignoring that's actually the opposite of what the flags they wave are supposed to be about.

To Anon-

You'd be surprised at the "swords" pointed at Pagans today. It took us ten years to get the Pentacle approved for our veterans' graves. We can still lose custody of, or be forbiddden to worship in front of our children. We face overt and covert harrassment at work and school. In fact, I'd wager in good faith that you know someone who is Pagan and living in the "broom closet".

And I don't give a damn if Paganism is NOT the "majority"; it's my faith and I have the same right to worship as freely as you do.

"There is a fundamental reason why pagan practices are not the norm in civilized societies"

Considering Christian panic about how awful 'the norm' they always end up enforcing is, pardon if I don't consider 'the norm' to be an indicator of anything but aggression, greed, guns, germs, and steel.

Especially if you're of a mind to trumpet your 'innate mob superiority' while 'hell-bent' on ruin to fulfill a prophecy *to literally end the world* no matter who it hurts.

Gimme a break. You claim that the people are 'sinful and in need of authoritarian guidance' when they don't agree with you, then claim that your many factions constitute a 'majority' when you want to claim dominion.

A fundamental reason why 'Pagan practices are not the norm in civilized society' is cause your *norm* is *based* on the idea of suppressing all others.

Personally, as a Pagan, I like to judge someone's character by how they treat people they perceive as 'weaker' than themselves.

You're just claiming 'might makes right' ...which is how you got your perception of your 'might' in the first place.

You think that's your might, try steering that freight train. :)

Well, Anon, You made your bed......

But please elaborate....

Why is "There is a fundamental reason why pagan practices are not the norm in civilized societies."????

>>There is a fundamental reason why pagan practices are not the norm in civilized societies

>>Er... it was called the Church, and swords, wasn't it? Or Islam, and swords. Wait, do you consider places where Hinduism dominates "civilised"? Or Buddhism? Or Shinto? Cos there's quite a lot of gods and old folk practices in that lot.

Sorry, now swords pointed at pagans in this day and age...and still, no majority. Stay in the present, my friend. Thats where I am talking from.

>>Puritans, et. al. before us that saw thru all of the superstition

Yep, those Puritans sure weren't ones for superstition.

>>There is a fundamental reason why pagan practices are not the norm in civilized societies

Er... it was called the Church, and swords, wasn't it? Or Islam, and swords. Wait, do you consider places where Hinduism dominates "civilised"? Or Buddhism? Or Shinto? Cos there's quite a lot of gods and old folk practices in that lot.

Gaby,

Ok..Im anonymous edsel....

Make any difference?...You dont know me and probabaly most everyone else on this blog. Cheap return. Sad retort, my friend. Sorry you cannot think of anything substansial to say.

ANONYMOUS:

No wonder you refuse to get a moniker. With your kind of thinking, you better stay anonymous.

Sorry, that wont work...not berating any person...just paganism in general...talking about the path (ie beliefs) they take.

There is a fundamental reason why pagan practices are not the norm in civilized societies.

Mindless pagans like Aristotle, Plato, Homer, Archimedes, Pythagoras,Marcus Aurelius, Julius Caesar, Julian the Apostate, etc. etc. etc. There is nothing so pitiful as someone who has bought into the mindless and cruel theology of Christianity berating pagans for their mindlessness.

Frankly, I wouldn't hold up the Puritans as models of 'seeing through superstition.'

It's not the Paganism that's mindless, ...it's the defamation that is, especially when it comes to getting in a knot about folk customs.

mindless is as mindless does

Right on, Charles Colson...and right on to the Puritans, et. al. before us that saw thru all of the superstition and saw through 'their' (ie pagans) path and lack of merit their path encompassed also.

>>"At worst, it's a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on"

I find it amusing that the pagans on here recently got voted the friendliest, most tolerant commenters (I forget the exact title), and from Chuck C we once again get a rather different interpretation of how to conduct yourself in a "multi-faith forum".

I don't think I need to say anything this time around, you show the 'merits' of your path quite clearly. Meanwhile, I'm overjoyed that the 'mindless' and discarded paganism is re-emerging enough to re-light the fires on the Hill of Tara in Ireland this year.

By all means, lets lump all Christians into witch burning, heretic wiping and slave owning folk. (Oops, but be sure we dont leave out those witches who didnt get burned and cast spells on unsuspecting oafs..turning them into a newt or something similar...oh ...oh...and those heretic wipers that went out to kill (by their own choice) those who didnt believe, yet they didnt listen to their Lord and Saviour who touted nothing of the kind). Lets really work hard at missing the point that human shortcomings are not basis of defining true Christian character, one of which is love your neighbor as yourself.

Hilarious! "At worst, it's a celebration of the mindless paganism that our ancestors wisely turned their backs on."
It never ceases to amaze me that the overwhelming majority of Christians have no concept of the pagan roots of their religion. Your ancestors never turned their backs on paganism. Most of your rituals and rites are all pagan rituals and rites that Christianity incorporated over time in order to win converts.
Even funnier though....the idea that paganism is mindless and Christianity is the height of free constructive thought. Huh? How does that work?

By all means, let's dispense with these mindless pagan practices and return to proper Christian pursuits--like burning witches, wiping out heretics, and owning slaves.

Who missed the opportunity? Most Christians?