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Chuck Colson's views are not Christian, they are another religion altogether - Pharisitical.

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From the Posting, 'This is why John Gresham Machen said, almost a century ago, that liberal Christianity is not a brand of Christianity: it is simply another religion altogether -- liberalism'. So what is conservative Christianity? Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Moderate:

**She is coming from a very confused, prejudiced and contradictory place.**

I think I understand some of the anger. It's a natural reaction to the whole idea of "reparative therapy" and the "ex-gay" movement. "Jesus cured me and now you need to let him cure you too." Or "If I can be ex-gay, then that proves that everyone who claims to be naturally gay is lying." I'm not saying that was what was meant but I can see where it could be read, especially if it's already a battle you fight daily with people who want to "fix" you when you don't conider yourself broken.
There is an implication, whether intended or not, that all it takes to be "normal" is Jesus, and that if you don't let Jesus make you "normal" then it's an act of aggression against him and his followers. It's having someone else define for you who you should be, according to their standards.

I run into the same kind of thing, not because of my orientation, but because of my religion. I have been told more times than I can count what I supposedly believe, by people who have no idea what I believe. And when I correct them, they tell me that I'm wrong - that what I've just told them isn't what I really believe at all - as if they know my soul better than I do. I have been told more times than I can count that I am going to hell, in part because I don't believe in hell. I've been admonishedm begged, and even ordered to reject the demons I worship and give my heart to Jesus before it's too late. (FTR, I don't believe in demons either).
A while back, my church had a associate minister who was a lesbian. She and her wife have since moved to another state, but I still consider her my minister. The local paper did a feature on gay clergy, and there was a picture on the front page of the Religion section of my minister, in full vestements, giving the bendiction at the end of a service. My mom called me the day the article came out to ask me if it was true that me church had a lesbian minister. I told her it was, at which point she informed me that I "knew better than that" and wanted to know what church I was planning to move my membership to. I told her I had no plans to move my membership anywhere, that this woman was a wonderful minister. She repeated "You knoe better than that. You know that's wrong." At which point I told her that I "knew" no such thing, that this woman was a loving, compassionate minister, and that her wife was as welcome as our male senior pastor's wife.
As much as I love my mom, there are certain ideas, such as those regarding race and sexuality, that we will simply never agree on. And if I won't let my own mom tell me who I am and what I believe,I certainly will not let strangers, whether they are online, or come knocking on my door Saturday morning.
Things like that are why I tend to get snippy after a while. I imagine that PaganPlace is in a similar boat, only moreso, because she deals with it on both the religious and relationship fronts, as well as where they overlap. PP, feel free to corect me if I am mistaken.

Arminius,:

"PaganPlace,

You are wearing me out. I am having trouble understanding where the hell you are coming from."

Ask her about "breeding cows". Her words, not mine. She is coming from a very confused, prejudiced and contradictory place.

Probably needs a few years to sort things out.

All the best,

The Moderate

Arminius,:

"PaganPlace,

You are wearing me out. I am having trouble understanding where the hell you are coming from."

Ask her about "breeding cows". Her words, not mine. She is coming from a very confused, prejudiced and contradictory place.

Probably needs a few years to sort things out.

All the best,

The Moderate

What?

You act out your screen name again.

You seem to think you 'know all' in calling certain people 'believers in nothing' ....yet...

Someone mentions that the man in the pulpit is a convicted deceiver of the same party pushing the same disingenuous accusations as you push here...

And you call *that* 'cynicism?'

If so, we need more cynics.

This doesn't mean there's 'no God.'

Just someone's talking crap.

You don't have to 'know all' to see that.

Just look.

PaganPlace,

You are wearing me out. I am having trouble understanding where the hell you are coming from.

Regarding 'Hell', my comment to Lep was supportive, and was not meant to imply the existence of 9 circles of punishment. I don't know about that.

So, I will explain exactly how I feel about the right wing 'Christians' attempting to establish a theocracy. I am a veteran, 1968-1970. Berlin, not 'Nam. I took an oath at entry into the Army, and it began thusly: ""I, (Name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same......
The rest of the oath is about obeying superior officers. The latter part no longer applies, but I still hold to the former part. Any attempt to run the government by religious standards qualifies in my book as a domestic enemy, and I will, by God, lay down my life, if necessary, to defeat such a thing.

I would politely submit that you should qualify Christian in all cases. Please. I have NEVER bashed Pagans. Ever.

Stated above:

>>Colson writes "This kind of decision dishonors our Lord, dishonors the Church, and dishonors those who have kept the faith for two millennia."

>>Kind of like the felonies Mr. Colson committed.

Here you see, folks, quoted from a previous post...cynicism at its best.

Amazing that these who deny God's existence think they know all...(mmm, the same thing they hold against believers in God) Why (to them), how could someone who is trying to do better with his life, and has been doing so for decades- how could they change? Sooooo forgiving, soooooo kind, soooooo understanding - these deniers of a creator......................NOT.

Well, Arminius, I often qualify 'Christian' when it's warranted.

Kindly mind admonishing right-wing Christians, when they seek the power of government in the name of Christianity, to specify, 'Right-wing Christian?'

Thanks. Knew you would. :)

As for your Hells, well... they ain't built one that could hold a soul yet. :)

Maybe it's a matter of 'lightening up.' :)

Lord help us, this is getting heavy again.

Lep, when you get to hell to escape the likes of Chuckie, look me up. I'm sure I'll beat you there, and for the same reason.

PaganPlace, lighten up! Go outside, even if it's hotter than the hinges of hell, which it is here. Have a glass of wine. Deep breaths, and all that.
I have a favor to ask you - when you go on the warpath against the likes of Chuckie and his ilk, please qualify 'Christian' to something like 'Right Wing Christian'. I am Christian, and agree with little or nothing the right wing Neanderthals proclaim. I know you are not bashing me, but it would be nice to say so to everybody else.

"The bible also foretells a time when things such as the misery of human life due to divorce, adultery and the like will be eliminated and mankind will have the opportunity to learn it the right way."

You know, on that, I'd just have to say, ...what makes you think trying to do the same misery-hate-and-repression-inducing things over and over again in *this* lifetime will result in anything different than what you've gotten before?

I mean, seriously, ...the more right-wing and Christian you are, the higher the divorce rate, despite all the compulsions involved.

Who taught you human life was or should be miserable in the first place?

Come on. Look around.

Do I really have to spell it out for you?

One of those things you don't think about is the obsessive tendency of straight Christians to think the 'sanctity' of their divorce-and-aggression-ridden marriages is 'diminished' if gay people in equally-committed relationships were to enjoy the same rights and standing as you do.

Gods, man. How great could your 'sanctity' be, if it's that vulnerable?

Sounds more like *envy* to me.

Marriage isn't a prison or suffering, or sacrifice.

It's about love, and, practicality.

Sanctity? Well, what's *sacred* about it.

There being no other options?

That's not sacred.

When Wiccans have sacred space, we say, 'This is the time without a time, the space without a space, in perfect love and perfect trust, so we will it to be.'

Marriage is like that. Will. Not mere 'force.'

It is what it is, between the worlds, and not, *dependent* upon the forms and shapes peole try to use to trap each other.

I would think that the *sanctity* of a marriage would be *enhanced,* not denigrated, by the fact that that choice, that *bond,* was as uncoerced and un-repressed as possible.

If I make an oath, it doesn't matter what others swear. It's an oath.

The 'chaos' you're taught to fear if someone else swears a similar oath to a different kind of person than to whom you swore yours... Is irrelevant.

Unreal.
At least inside a handfasting.

Or anyplace *I'd* think of as really sacred.

Frankly, if scorn for what you think of gay peoples' entire lives is what 'sanctifies' your marriages, I don't see any sanctity, there. I see you dragging your dark imaginings and repressions into something that *should be about what it is.*

And if you can't keep your own oaths, well, don't look at the rest of us.

That's probably why you couldn't in the first place.

If going to the Christian version of heaven would mean spending eternity with the likes of Chuckie, I'll take eternal damnation.

Dear Chuck Colson, Thank you for your faithfulness in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your article rearding issues of faith in the Scriptures and not personal opinion is just one of many reasons we support your ministry. As a believer in the life, death, resurrection, ascension and return of Jesus Christ, I could not belong to a church family that did not treat the Bible as true, inerrant, and inspired- the very Word of God. You have championed the cause of the Gospel even as those in the N.T. have done. You are a good and faithful servant and will never be put to shame when you stand before Him to whom we all must give an account.

Dear Chuck Colson, Thank you for your faithfulness in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your article rearding issues of faith in the Scriptures and not personal opinion is just one of many reasons we support your ministry. As a believer in the life, death, resurrection, ascension and return of Jesus Christ, I could not belong to a church family that did not treat the Bible as true, inerrant, and inspired- the very Word of God. You have championed the cause of the Gospel even as those in the N.T. have done. You are a good and faithful servant and will never be put to shame when you stand before Him to whom we all must give an account.

Dear Chuck Colson, Thank you for your faithfulness in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ. Your article rearding issues of faith in the Scriptures and not personal opinion is just one of many reasons we support your ministry. As a believer in the life, death, resurrection, ascension and return of Jesus Christ, I could not belong to a church family that did not treat the Bible as true, inerrant, and inspired- the very Word of God. You have championed the cause of the Gospel even as those in the N.T. have done. You are a good and faithful servant and will never be put to shame when you stand before Him to whom we all must give an account.

Tom Barksdale,

In answer to your question, by and through literal reading of the bible, one finds that mankind has decided that his own direction is what mankind will follow,which includes divorce - allowed due to the hardness of mankinds heart. God is basically hands off (for now) except where His purpose supercedes our self-inflicted learning process. As creator, He has that perogative. As humans, we are experiencing the outcome of leaving the decisions of right and wrong to ourselves. There is a fundamental reason why so many cannot agree with each other with regard to good, evil.

The bible also foretells a time when things such as the misery of human life due to divorce, adultery and the like will be eliminated and mankind will have the opportunity to learn it the right way. Even a loving human father must let their children learn the hard way at times. It is no different with us and our creator.

I do wish some of you good, obey-the-Bible-all-the-time Christians would answer my question: by the literal reading of the Bible on divorce, should Giuliani, McCain, Gingrich, or Thompson be running for President? And if any one of them wins the nomination and then the office, would that not result in an adulterer becoming First Lady?

ba'al: "Kind of like the felonies Mr. Colson committed."

Ah, but he then asked forgiveness and turned his life over to serving the lord. I bet he'd say that this is all the Gays have to do

Colson writes "This kind of decision dishonors our Lord, dishonors the Church, and dishonors those who have kept the faith for two millennia."

Kind of like the felonies Mr. Colson committed.

Arminius - It sounds like a really great church. If only they'd drop belief in the supernatural (which a lot of episcopalians don't believe anyhow) I'd be back in a minute.

MH in NC:,

Almost forgot! All Saints has a really good choir, backed up many times with wind instruments. Also, a genuine, accept-no-substitutes pipe organ. GRAND music there!

MH in NC:,

All Saints is the one and only place in God's glorious creation where I feel completely at peace. It redefines beauty, love, and joy. Please come here! It changed my life. Your life has already changed, but it can reinforce it.

Arminus,
Just glanced at the All Saints website. Choral evensong every Sunday during the "school year".... nice. (*wistful sigh*). Looks like a great parish. I'll try to visit if I find myself in Atlanta on a Sunday - thanks for the invitation!
MH

Brambleton,
We're not really on different pages here. I also believe that as Christians we are called to share the good news. To me, believing that I am loved, that I have both the duty and the amazing ability to love others, and that this love has the power to change the world, is very good news indeed. To me, this is even more important than the good news that Christ died to save sinners - - because the WHY is God's love for us. I identify myself, gladly and openly, as a Christian, when asked, but I don't shout it from the rooftops or throw around religious slogans. Maybe it's being raised Episcopalian (we tend to be fairly private about religion), but I'm uncomfortable with wearing my religion on my sleeve. Rather, I try to share the good news through my actions. I try to shine my light, to be the salt that has not lost its savor. I think that's different from attempts at conversion. When you suggest to a Jewish person, a Buddhist, or a Pagan that they should be Christian, that's what I consider conversion, and I'm not comfortable with it. I've already said I have doubts about some essentials of Christian theology, and I'm not going to be a hypocrite or a liar and proselytize about things I'm not sure of myself. But I believe, and will tell anyone, and have said previously on WP On Faith, that if more people followed Christ's teachings, whether or not they believe in His divinity, the world would be a better place. That's why I go to a Christian church, identify myself as Christian, and bother to post on this board - because I want to help transform the world through God's love.

MH in NC:

Hello, friend! I will most certainly look up St Paul's if I can get there. And diversity is right up my alley.

If you ever get to the Atlanta area, check out Christ Episcopal in Kennesaw (my home), or All Saints in Midtown Atlanta (my parish).

For a real treat, check this out:
http://www.allsaintsatlanta.org/home/default.asp

God bless!

MH,

Everything you said about your journey with Christ is true, except that we are called to share the Gospel (good news) with those who have not found a personal relationship with Christ. Which, when you think about it, shouldn't be a difficult task if Christ really is working in your heart. Now, if you want to refer to "sharing the Gospel" as trying to "convert" someone, that's fine. The underlying premise is the most important factor.

Arminus,
Back atcha!
Drop by St. Pauls in Cary NC if you're ever in the neighborhood. Lots of kindred spirits there, although in good true Episcopal fashion, not homogeneous.
Keep posting, see you on future boards.
MH

Rory - How do you know what kind of sin Christ considers homosexuality to be? Is that somewhere in the Bible? I thought Christ didn't mention homosexuality.

Perhaps Christ has been reading the Kinsey report?

MH in NC:

Thanks be to God, a true kindred spirit! I am Episcopal and liberal, and damned proud of it, here in Georgia.

Oh, yes, I love Lep's posts too.

And I'll have a beer with you any ol' time.

Jesus is a Liberal! (Bumper sticker)

Lepidopteryx,
Any time. I always enjoy seeing your posts. I gathered you were Pagan from your earlier posts. (I'm Episcopalian and yes, liberal and proud!) I hope anyone who is judging you and your opinions, because of your beliefs, turns their own eyes inward. To me, "Christian" means a follower of Christ, someone who patterns their life after Christ's teaching. That's why I don't think people who profess belief in Christ's divinity, while spewing vitriol at others, are really Christian. Like many (if they are really honest), I have doubts about exactly who and what Christ was, but I try every day to follow His teachings a little better. I go to church to worship, hear Scripture, which does have a lot of good things to say, share fellowship with others on the journey, and to be inspired by others whom I see following Christ's teachings.
For those who say that Christians should try to convert others, I say that Jesus said that others would "know us" by our love and our actions. This is what will transform the world, not judgement and intolerance.

And I'd have a beer with you any time (maybe not the other - those days are past :-))

Who wants to belong to a church that doesn't treat biblical teachings as truth? Hmmm. How about any woman who desires not to be stoned for speaking to an unrelated man when not in the presence of a male family member? That'd sorta put a crimp in Secretary Rice's style, but hey, that's literal biblicalism so whaddya gonna do?

Thankfully, Acts 10 recounts the work of the Holy Spirit in the continuing revelation of God's Truth, even in trumping such human conventions as Gentile proscription, kosher dietary law and, many would add, what the Holy Spirit has been showing us about glbt brothers and sisters. Luther said it: the Bible is the cradle of Christ, not Christ [the object of our worship] himself.

Thanks to the WP for making this conversation possible.

Brambleton - most if not all serious biblical scholars (e.g. with doctorates and associated with mainstream schools - that is, not evangelical seminaries) recognize that the Bible is not factual. They know that for many reasons - it's written like myth and fable, the supposed facts in it don't check out, etc.

I respect the Bible as ancient writings, but not as the word of God.

The Bible demands a higher standard of conduct from those who are set up as examples to be followed by other people in the Christian church (referring to pastors, deacons, elders...) -- they are to be 'above reproach'. While homosexual marriage or relationships may not be a tremendous danger to human society, it is still contrary to what the Bible teaches is the intended form of sexual expression - one man, one woman. To tolerate deviance from this by lay members of society is one thing, but where clergy are called to be 'above reproach' when compared to Biblical ideals, there is not room for compromise in the area of sexual relationships.

Those who are in churches that tolerate sinful relationships among their clergy should quickly evacuate their present church and find a church (or even a new denomination) which still regards scripture as the highest authority, without this disturbing postmodernist shift we see today which threatens to erode the very foundation of our faith.

Let me say finally: In the eyes of Christ, homosexuality is a forgivable sin. Research by pioneering scientists like Alfred Kinsey demonstrate that sexuality is less a static condition, and is instead characterized by an aggregate of the sexual thoughts, feelings, and experiences a person has. This is why Kinsey's seven-point scale of sexual orientation worked so well to describe the continuum of varying individual cases he observed during his study. If you have been involved in homosexual acts, all hope is not lost for you -- hope is extended to all who sin, but who 'repent' (decide to hate their sin) and confess Jesus as Lord. So why is there so much rebellion against this idea of free salvation? The idea that homosexuality is 'natural' and 'normal' has created the notion in the minds of gays (those who identify exclusively with their homosexual impulses instead of rejecting them) that they have no need of repentance. However, I'd submit to you this last idea: What is 'natural' or 'normal' is not necessarily the 'ideal'.

Mental conformity to doctrine or dogma is not belief; and fundamentalist certainty is not faith.

With regards to religeous belief, all is speculative. Alot of people don't want to acknowlege that this is true.

Today, the cat is out of the bag; Pandora is out of the box; the Jiny is out of the bottle; with regards to Christianity, there is no human authority to tell us what the Bible means or what God wants us to do.

In the Catholic Church, if you believe some church teachings but not others, they call you a "cafeteria Catholic" as though there is something wrong with being true to your own inner beliefs, and as if there is something wrong with a cafeteria. But the church authority doesn't mean much; it is all custom and tradition and respect (or lack of it); no one is going to be burned at the stake anymore for making their "cafeteria" selections.

And in the Protestant churchs, all authority is shattered and fragmented. It is divided, group into group, each with their own authority, and the multitude of individuals among them, claiming authority, interpretting "key" points with many differing shades, or vast differences, of meaning.

And in this struggle for authority, the passions of religious ferver are let loose, and can descend into animalistic brutishness, and verge on the maniacal, and even to insanity.

And in this way, they accuse each other, regretfully, and with recrimination, that I am better than you, or we are better than they, or this group or that group is in apostasy, when in fact, none of them have any authority, knowlege, or insight that is more valid than any of the other's.

And in among all of this cacophonous furor, there may be some people, quiet and unnoticed, who want to follow the teachings of Jesus and seek to live a Christ-like life.

This guy, Colson, is just another voice.

Proud,

Beautiful post, and I agree with every word. I'm Episcopal, and Jesus is a Liberal.

It's interesting. I was listening to an online sermon from a Right-wing evangelical church in Virginia that espouses the inerrancy of the text on their web site. The sermon I was most interested in was the one on the 6th commandment (Thou Shalt Not Kill). The sermon was basically about all the texts that provide loopholes to that commandment. Ah well. We live in an era and under an ideology that looks to the sword.

The forbears of Right-wing evangelical churches in the 19th century focused on slavery and found rationales in the text to justify that. Which, of course, no one would do today.

In time, the gay issue will wear out and die, maybe lie around as one among a myriad of animosities that help people define themselves. You will never "convert" the Jews, excuse me, the Gays, wholesale. The only alternative will be to continue to go after them, wholesale. But the mass of people will never be willing to do that because everyone has a loved one or friend who is Gay.

When power finally falls away from the Right, the collapse of what I humorously call "The Sex and Death" religion will be complete.

Years from now Right wing evangelical churches will be wholly defined by their support for and enabling and facilitation of the Bush administration and all its aberrations. Perhaps not entirely fair but that's politics--and it's also the politics of religion as politics.

What will also remain to taint Right-wing churches as Bush churches will be the association and support for killing. And in this case, there will be no debate as there may be with fetuses--the born are most decidedly living people. That will be the thing people will have tired of the most. The killing.

And the texts will be mined for other things.

Israel of God V.S. Israel of Herz'l & Hitler:

http://goatsandsheep.godisjesus.net/Israel%20of%20God%20V.htm

I've hit every hyperlink I can find, and I still have not found what decision by the ECLA got Chuck Colson so agitated. But anytime some self-appointed judge of what constitutes "Biblical standards of moral behavior" delivers another of his arrogant diatribes, a response is justified.

Let me put my cards on the table. I consider Chuck Colson one of the leading American hypocrites of all times. Given Jerry Falwell's demise, he may be the champion. I remember well his role as leading apologist for Richard Nixon. I take all repentants with a grain of salt. They all come across to me as another Lindsay Lohan. Repentance before you're caught is one thing. Repentance after you're caught and have no other alternative is quite another. When the identity of Deep Throat was revealed, there was ol' Chuckie, showing his true colors by shedding his repentance cloak and hitting the talk show circuit once more as a Nixon apologist, spreading lies to what he obviously believed would be a clueless new generation of Americans that Watergate was not really a big deal. Shameless!

And now, here's Chuckie once more wagging his lying, hypocritical finger in our faces and passing judgment on someone who has not measured up to his interpretation of what constitutes Biblical standards.

Here is my question to Mr. Colson: Biblical standards on divorce are absolutely clear. In fact, we have nothing less than the explicit words of Jesus Christ: divorce is absolutely forbidden-except in the case of the woman's adultery. But what do we have as candidates for the Republican nomination for President? Here's the score:
Number of divorces by the five top Republican presidential candidates:
Giuliani: 2
McCain: 1
Thompson: 1
Gingrich: 2
Romney:0

In the cases of Giuliani, Gingrich, and McCain, there is no doubt that the divorces came about purely and simply because the husband decided the time had come to trade in the old wife for a newer and younger model. They just simply turned around and walked away. Twice, for God's sake, in the case of Giuliani and Gingrich. I'm less certain about the exact nature of Thompson's divorce, but the fact remains: all of these people have violated the Biblical standards for divorce as stated explicitly by Jesus Christ.

But I have not seen a peep out of the likes of Chuck Colson--or Jerry Falwell (before he died of un-Christian gluttony)or Jimmy Dobson or Frank Graham--or any of the other self-anointed guardians of Biblical standards, pointing out this gross violation of Biblical standards by no less than four of the leading Republican candidates for President.

So, please, Mr. Colson. In addition to expressing your unvarnished criticism of the ELCA, could you give us your unvarnished judgment of these deviants from the unqualified Biblical standards for divorce?

While 55.5% of the delegates "urge restraint" in the disciplining of gay clergy in committed relationships, there are still 44.5% who haven't grasped the foundational concept of Christianity -- GRACE: God's Riches At Christ's Expense. This is the only reason Christians can call themselves Christians. And to be a Christian, you must follow Christ -- who fraternized with tax collectors, women, the outcasts, and others society considered beneath them. He healed the sick, fed the hungry, gave sight to the blind, raised the dead, and died an excruciating, humiliating death so that we might spend the rest of our earthly life and all of eternity living in grace.

If you wonder how you should be spending the rest of your life, read Matthew 25. In John 21:19, Jesus says, "Follow me." If you read the Gospel of John and follow Jesus' teachings, then perhaps you will be among the sheep on the day of judgment. Until then, none of us knows who will be saved because none of us knows the heart of another.

I could wish the vote had been more resoundingly in favor of accepting all sinners [that's you and me, brothers and sisters] into the church, but I'm thrilled beyond words that the leadership of my church stood up with Jesus and offered love and forgiveness rather than condemnation.

Mr. Colson, you and the rest of the judgmental, "accept-my-beliefs-or-be-damned-for-eternity," "I'm-the-only-one-with-the-'right'-answers" "fundamentalist" "Christians" have turned more people away from the love of God in Christ than any atheists, evolutionary scientists, or "secular humanists" ever dreamed of doing.

BTW, I believe every scientific discovery unveils yet another miracle of God's vast, complex, extraordinary, beautiful creation. And science has the timing down right, too. It fits right into Genesis 1. "A thousand ages in thy sight are as a passing day." Ever heard that verse about God's time before? Where in the Bible does it say that the six days of Creation were dinky man-defined 24 hour days?!

God's ways are not our ways, and NO ONE can comprehend the Mind of God. Just for once, try Psalm 46:10 - "Be still and know that I am God." Close your mouth, and open your mind, your heart, and your soul to the voice of the Holy Spirit. She speaks the truth in a whisper, so you need to be VERY still and VERY quiet. Try speaking to God more and judging your fellow humans less.

God loves you, brother, and I'm trying my best to follow Christ's command to love you too. Help me out a little here by toning down the hellfire and brimstone rhetoric, please.

In a just world, Chucky Colson would still be in prison himself. He did the crime, and he should still be doing the time.

The "mainline" protestant denominations such as Episcopalians and Lutherans are losing U.S. membership rapidly. Church leadership decisions such as this one are largely to blame, and are badly out of step with the body of believers at large. It's the more conservative evangelical churches where church growth is occurring today.

If present trends continue, the "mainline" protestant denominations soon will have far fewer members and there will be far less revenue coming in to support their national organizations. Just look at the ultra-liberal National Council of Churches and their budget problems if you want a glimpse of where the Lutherans are headed as they continue down this slippery slope.

In short, the Lutheran church is well on its way to irrelevance. A shrinking member base and reduced contributions will make it difficult for this increasingly liberal body to foist their unpopular, unbiblical, and errant views on an unwilling and better-informed majority.

Whoa Nick! I think you should cut atheists a little slack!

The problem with Stalinism was that it, in itself, was a religion, and it happened to be especially intolerant of other religions. OK, it tossed out the god thing and replaced it with worship of its priests, making it technically atheist, but that wasn't really a core issue.

But it was/is definitely a religion/theocracy - because it was based on precepts that were "not to be questioned," no matter how much they contradicted reality.

So you see, the real reason that "millions died" wasn't due to a lack of God, but a lack of Reason.

And, guess what, Nick: there's no 'atheists' to blame for the effects of what Christians have done just lately.

Cold comfort right now, but, at least if we can't pull this out, ...the effects are *all you,* (again) ...Christian.

Being of, apparently, the only Western religion with a concept of 'contingency plan,' let me say on behalf of Pagans, when it hits the fan.... Again...

We told you so.

And, yeah, Lepi. The Nazarene guy had some good stuff to say.

Speaking of Life of Brian references, sometimes I think it takes a Pagan heart to really get it.

As for this:

"Liberalism is godless. When atheism was tried, millions died."

I think you may be missing out on the fact that millions die and are *still* dying, well... all the time, whether people worship Paul's God or Stalin or Kim Jong Il...

Stalin was smacked around by Christians as a kid... not an atheist or even a Marxist. Just a guy.

I don't give a crap if you worship my *toaster,* dude, here, have it.

Saying 'atheism' is a coherent ideology of not worshipping the God of the religion that makes me think this way of people (comparing them to Stalin) ...who are just trying to live...'

My *Gods,* man.

If you're trying to say your Jesus wasn't a "liberal," well, what do I have to teach you about your *own* religion befire you let someone else have their own? Let you press me with stones till I scream something incoherent or die?

More weight.

Liberalism is godless. When atheism was tried, millions died.

Chuck Colson is right.

"The question here is whether the few references to homosexuality condemns all homosexual relations or just those which sexually immoral and are used in pagan cults"

Well, if that were a question, this would make sexuality a matter of freedom of religion, something our state guarantees to the *individual,* not the majority, so this would certainly undercut the religious case against LBGT rights, as if there was ever reason to that.

As far as committed gay Lutheran ministers and their partners doing some kind of Caananite ritual sex, well, Hec. *Pagans* would raise an eyebrow at *that.* :)

Non-issue, yet? :)

MHINNC:

Thanks for your kind words.

As to my religious identification, I'm Pagan. While I don't worship the nazarene, I have many friends and relatives who do, and Ieshua actually strikes me as someone I could enjoy a conversation with over a beer and a joint.

There was a man named Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews, that once walked on this earth. He said a lot of things, one of them was: "Judge not lest you be judged", another was, "The measure that you use to judge will be the measure that you are judged with", another was, "Come follow ME", it was not, "Come follow Paul", nor was it, "Come follow Peter", Another was, "Simon thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build MY Church and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it", He did not say it was your Church Peter but He said MY Church. Another thing that He said to the woman caught in adultery, notice that for some reason, think about it, there was only a woman there, doesn't it seem that usually it takes more than one for adultery to occur, "He who is without sin cast the first stone", He did not say, "He who is with lesser sin", nor did He say, "He whose sin is forgiven", did He? There sure does seem to be a lot of stones being thrown on this post, I for one cannot throw a speck of dust. I have met God, the Trinity, and if He was anything like a lot of people that think they are Christians then there is no way I could be thankful to something like that. I repeat: God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Take care. Be ready. I also repeat: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Bram - I understand your point.

The question here is whether the few references to homosexuality condemns all homosexual relations or just those which sexually immoral and are used in pagan cults, as opposed to one that takes place within a stable adult loving relationship. It is possible to restrict the condemnation to the cultic immorality, just as it is possible to limit the other passages to their particular circumstances.

Fundamentalists like Chuck Colson want their bright lines and easy answers, but life is not alway black and white.

One might ask -- who is more moral and upright in God's eyes -- a man who multiple sex partners out of marriage, and cheats on his wife with another woman, or a man who commits his life to another man, and remains a faithful lifelong loving companion. In those marriage ceremonies in Massachusets and in S.F., there were couples there who had been together 30 to 40 years. Who is to say that they have not lived moral lives.

Jenna,

Wikipedia is not a source. However, I understand what you were trying to show and agree, somewhat, with you on it. The Bible is certainly open to interpretation, as evidenced by the number of subsets of Christianity. But that does not mean that ALL scripture is open to interpretation. There are vast amounts of scripture which are very clear in meaning and context and whose interpretation would draw immaterial differences. (See infant baptism, Baptists vs. Presbyterians).

Bramleton - when did you chose to be heterosexual? What moment was it for you? I know there was no such moment. When you reached puberty you found that you were attracted to the opposite sex without having to give it any special thought. It's the same with gays. They are attracted to the same sex, but did not ask for that to happen to them (why would they chose that course?) It happened because they were hard wired that way from birth and nothing can change that. They are wired to be attracted to and romantically fall in love with a person of the same sex.

ANOTHER reason I always root for the lions in the old Toga-flics!

Brambelton you need to learn some embryology. Males and females start out the same, with potential to be either gender with the right hormonal influences. In the presence of a working Y chromosome, hormonal signals turn on the male development genes and make hormones that make the phallus grow into a male organ and make the parts that would be a uterus, etc, shrivel up and go away. Those hormones act on other body parts, especially the brain, in ways we don't yet understand.

In the absence of a working Y chromosome the "male' parts basically don't grow, the signals directing the destruction of the uterus and fallopian tubes aren't made, and a female results basically by default.

There are many opportunities for that process to go wrong, and birth defects of the genitals (or sex determination) are quite common, often referred to as "ambiguous genitalia" (or in some cases hermaphrodite, intersex, or other names). There is even a disorder where the body makes excess testosterone even if there is no working Y chromosome, and affected girls are born with what looks like a male organ. Another disorder makes the genitals impervious to testosterone so that a person who is XY appears as a female, often not found out until they are adults.

So you see, at conception we are gender neutral - with the right influences we can become either gender. We have very little understanding of the effects of hormones on the developing fetal brain. It is anatomically incorrect to say that we are hard wired at conception regardng gender.

ANOTHER reason I root for the lions in the old Toga flics!

Peacetroll (and what an interesting choice of name that is for you...):
In your first attack on Lepidopteryx that I noticed, you said: "Those who love Christ in truth ackowledge their downfalls..."
I hope you're not saying that you love Christ in truth, because if that's what you're saying, you're very wrong. Christ said that those who love him must love others. Attacking people and calling them goonballs, dim-wits and whatever else isn't love. It's mean and hateful.
Every post I've seen from Lepidopteryx (here and in other forums) is thoughtful and respectful of others. Whatever her religious identification, she displays a more Christian love than you. You could take a page or two from her book.
Lepidopteryx, you go girl!
MH in NC, aka Thisbe88 from earlier WP forums

"Danny,

"I believe that we are created as male and female and that God's idea for sex was not only procreation, but also recreation and the development of a deeper relationship between man and woman. ("And the two shall become one flesh") We are hard-wired as heterosexuals and, therefore, it is not our choice. The choice is made to live outside how we are made, whether that be as as either a homosexual or bi-sexual."

Simple fact is, Brambleton, ... that's not how it works.

It's not not the behavior of our nearest evolutionary neighbors, and it coincides with neither science nor the personal experiences of people actually living these lives.

If it weren't what some were told was the 'pious' view, what you say frankly wouldn't weight as any kind of understanding of what we observe.

Brambleton,

Then what is it that leads one to the "crossroads" of that choice that doesn't lead everyone there?

You are saying that some, but not all, are presented with a choice, and those presented with it choose gay?

If that is not what you are saying, then how were you exempted from having to make such a choice?

To Branbleton:

The following is taken from from Wikipedia on Adam: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam

"Two accounts of the story of creation are told in the book of Genesis. Historians and academics in the fields of linguistics and source criticism believe that these stories belong to the two strata of J, or Yahwist source, and the P, or Priestly source (See Documentary hypothesis).[4]

"According to the first account of creation (viewed by historians of source criticism as Priestly dating back to the 5th or 6th century BC), God (or Yahweh) created all living creatures human beings on the sixth day of Creation. He created man in his image, after his likeness, both male and female, blessed them to be "fruitful and multiply" and ordained that they should have "dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth" (Gen. 1.26-27, KJV).[4]

"The lengthier account (viewed by historians of source criticism as Yahwist dating back to the 10th century BC), records that the creation of Adam happened when the earth was still void. God first formed Adam out of "the dust of the ground" and then "breathed into his nostrils the breath of life", causing him to "become a living soul" (Gen. 2. 7, KJV). God then placed Adam in the Garden of Eden, giving him the commandment that "Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die" (Gen. 2.16-17, KJV).

"God then noted that "It is not good that the man should be alone" (Gen. 2.18, KJV). He then brought every "beast of the field and every fowl of the air" (Gen. 2.19, KJV) before Adam and had Adam name all the animals. However, among all the animals, there was not found "an help meet for" Adam (Gen. 2.20, KJV), so God caused "a deep sleep to fall upon Adam" and took one of his ribs, and from that rib, formed a woman (Gen. 2.21-22), subsequently named Eve.[4]"

This is Jenna again: The two creation stories have lead to the myth of "Lilith" who was viewed as the first created female (before Eve) but who was rejected as not being subservient enough to Adam.

Anyway, the point here that is important is that the bible is not always entirely internally consistent and has to be interpreted by men. No one has the ultimate right answer on bible interpretation.

Brambleton, as a matter of sincere curiosity, where do hermaphrodites fit into your worldview?

Funny thing about right wingers - they are only on a soapbox about things that haven't happened (yet) to their family. My cousin the (non RC) priest preached loud and often on the immorality of homosexuality - until his son came out - a terrific, unusually kind and thoughtful kid we had previously expected to follow his dad into the cloth. Now he's on the soap box about how this is the way God made his child and it isn't up to us to understand all God's ways.

Chuck Colson was Richard Nixon's Rove. A little googling on his past life and you'll need to go wash your hands. He may very well have had an authentic "come to Jesus" in prison, but wouldn't real Christianity have humbled him instead of making him more judgemental? I find it absolutely astounding that the convicted felons and perjurers of Watergate and Iran-Contra are today's "moral authorities", none of whom could certainly be described as having been humbled.

Lepid,

Apologies, I misread an earlier post. My comments were intended for Pagan. Thank you for your response anyway.

Danny,

I believe that we are created as male and female and that God's idea for sex was not only procreation, but also recreation and the development of a deeper relationship between man and woman. ("And the two shall become one flesh") We are hard-wired as heterosexuals and, therefore, it is not our choice. The choice is made to live outside how we are made, whether that be as as either a homosexual or bi-sexual.

brambleton,

I've never known people who "flipped back and forth between homosexuality and hetreosexuality." I have known bisexual people, who are attracted to both sexes (usually more strongly to one or the other). If a bisexual person had a relationship with a man, ended it, and later had a relationship with a woman (which is what I assume you're referring to), I wouldn't call that "flipping back and forth" - bisexual people are not alternately homosexual or heterosexual, they're some of both, at least the way I understand it.

Or did you misunderstand me to mean that one must pick either bisexual, homosexual, or transgender? They aren't mutually exclusive. Two acquaintances of mine were both born physically and genetically female. As adults, both went through gender reassignment and became men. They are now married to each other and living in the Netherlands where their marriage is legally recognized.

Actually, Brambleton, on this:

"Further, if that premise is true, then I'm also confused how you can be hard-wired for a certain sexual orientation, say homosexuality, but flip back and forth between that and heterosexuality."

As soon as people stop trying do *define* complex behaviors and instincts and inhibitions and drives in terms of legalistic language, it'll make a lot more sense, trust me.

I'm bisexual, myself. I don't "flip back and forth" between 'sin' and virtue.' When I met my sweetie of some six years, I didn't go, "I think I'll be into girls, today," (kind of wish I could, particularly after what happened when I last broke my 'No Monotheist Guys' rule... but it doesn't work like that.)

If you put your book down a minute, you'd see the simple fact is that *no one gets to choose, straight, gay, or bi.*

You can only love where you can, or shut off love and force yourself to obey.

I don't advise the latter. Whoever you are.

Brambleton,

This was posted on the Susan Brooks Thistlethwaite thread by "Are You Kidding", but I 'd be interested to hear your take on it.

"I would like to hear about your experience in deciding you were heterosexual. Since you claim that sexual orientation is a choice, I would like to hear how you made yours.

I'd also like to point out, that by your logic, you must have considered being gay at one point. Did you make a pro/con list? Just how is that done?

I did not CHOOSE to be heterosexual, so what is wrong with me, and how did I manage get so "lucky" as to having the "correct" orientation without CHOOSING?"

I find it an interesting point.

Brambleton:

No, I don't have any irrefutable evidence that sexual orientation is inborn. I have no irrefutable evidence that dislike for pears is inborn either, but ever since the first time I can recall putting one in my mouth, I have not liked them. Nor could I choose to like them. I could choose to eat themdespite the fact that I don't like them, but I cannot choose to like them.

Same goes for orientation. I didn't choose to be attracted to men. As I approached puberty, I found that images/thoughts/presence of certain males caused a pleasant tingling and moistness in my lady parts. Images/thoughts/presence of other females did not.
Could I choose to have sex with a woman? Of course. Could I choose to WANT to have sex with a woman? Not in a million years.

If I know that I did not choose to be heterosexual, why would I assume that my BGLT friends/relatives chose their orientations?

Lepid,

I was not brought up in a Christian home and did not accept Christ until my early 20's, so I was not taught to disregard anything.

I'm not sure how much weight I can give miscellaneous, peer-reviewed studies that "indicate" some unknown difference which may or may not explain sexual orientation. Further, if that premise is true, then I'm also confused how you can be hard-wired for a certain sexual orientation, say homosexuality, but flip back and forth between that and heterosexuality.

Bramby, I do not expect Mr. Colson to live a perfect life. I also do not expect that I (or anyone else) should take morality lessons from a felon, let alone a Watergate felon (whether he's OK with Jesus now, pretends to be, or is not). You would be wise, Christian or otherwise, to do the same.

Believe me, I understand way too much about Christianity to attach myself to it.

Christians can be good or bad. The type that attack homosexuals and "liberals" (or anyone else for that matter) are bad.

Nice, Paganplace.

There is nowhere, no culture, race, religion, that doesn't have gay people.

Noodly & Rick,

The fact that you obviously expect Mr. Colson, or any other Christian for that matter, to live a perfect life is ignorant. If you wish to attach Christians or the Christian religion, at least try understand the basic principles. I'm quite sure that Mr. Colson accepted responsibility for his sin and for breaking his covenant with Christ, through which, we are healed.

" Brambleton:
Lepid,Are you stating that people are born gay, bi, or transgender? If so, is there any scientific evidence which confirms that any of these sexual orientations is engineered at birth? It seems to me that they are all the result of choice."

I'd say, Brambleton, it only 'seems' that way because you were taught to disregard both the scientific record *and* the personal experiences of all gay, bi, and transgendered people in favor of anything that supports a simplistic Biblical idea that 'this is sin, therefore must be choice.'

It doesn't add up, the 'choice' idea. The 'choice' purported to be involved is 'Suffer all your life for what we say are dubious pleasures, instead of *our* dubious pleasures.'

There are *many* peer-reviewed studies which indicate biological differences between gay people and the population at large. There are, as I mentioned in another thread, a lot of 'intersex' people born with arbitrary genitalia at birth, assigned a sex according to convenience, because the subject, like homosexuality, is true, and transsexuals have been shown in a number of ways, including the construction of their hypothalami, to *actually* have brains with important traits in common, central to identity-formation, with the 'opposite' sex to that in which they were born.

Evidence as well as report is actually *abundantly* in favor, if not outright documenting the fact that LBGT people are physically put together somewhat differently.

One can 'engineer' gay or transgendered animals just by tweaking their prenatal hormonal environment, or messing with their brains.

Gay animals, at least, also occur naturally under fine conditions.

It's also a part of the social construction of our nearest neighbors, and in fact, a large proportion of *functional cultures* that haven't been dominated by certain religions.

At this point, at least, from the evidence the *burden of proof* lies on people claiming there *isn't* a biolgical nature to it, so it must be a choice, so can therefore be called 'sin' according to one book, therefore must be 'unnatural.'

More than that, you could just listen to people that are queer, for *once,* already.

So, what you mean to say is that distrust of a convicted Watergate felon ("born again" conveniently before sentencing) on the attack against gays and liberals is a sign of immaturity?

I agree with Chuck Colson's views and I am saddened that liberals have to resort to namecalling and attacking his character because they have no valid response. Show some maturity, people.

EFav & Pagan,

Thank you for the Genesis reference. Genesis 5 begins at verse 1, which states, "This is the written account of the descendants of Adam. When God created human beings, he made them to be like Himself." Verse 2 states, "He created them male and female, and He blessed them and called them human." It is fairly obvious that the creation of male and female is in regards to Adam's descendants, not Adam & Eve.

I'm sorry, I've been on vacation and must have missed something. What Biblical standard of moral behavior did the ELCA ignore? Did they pass a rule making it permissibe for divorced, ex-Watergate convicts to become ministers?

PeaceTroll,

Ad Hominem attacks only prove that your argument is empty, and nothing more.

Nice work ... so bravely exposing yourself!

Since the recent trends in conservative Christianity have apparently gone unnoticed to many on these boards, read carefully, students. This may be on the SATs.

"Charles Colson" is to "Morality"

as

"Mark Foley" is to "Pedophilia"

as

"Ted Haggert" is to "Homosexuality"

as

"I" am to ____________?

Brambleton: "It seems to me that they are all the result of choice."

Does it seem that way because YOU are gay and just not "choosing" to be yourself?

Lepid,

Are you stating that people are born gay, bi, or transgender? If so, is there any scientific evidence which confirms that any of these sexual orientations is engineered at birth? It seems to me that they are all the result of choice.

EFav,

Good points. However, I'm not sure where the accepted notion about the Bible being factually inaccurate is coming from. I've read the conclusions from the Jesus seminar and other documentaries/research on the subject, but you get opposite conclusions from researchers such as Strobel & Baucom.

"Genesis 5:2 -- "Male and female he created them."

You know, as much as that's harped upon like it means something, the ancient Hebrews had ways of dealing with the one in two thousand babies born with ambiguous genitalia... as do most civilizations.

Check out what happens to 'intersex' people in the current world. All cause someone takes some words in a book to mean 'There are only two ways to be, each regulated and controlled."

Brambleton -

Genesis 5:2 -- "Male and female he created them."

(Peace)Troll:

Quit insulting my firends! Who are you to call people imbecils and maroons (oh, I guess you meant morons)?

This is a discussion board, not a insulting board.

And you have the nerve to call yourself a christian!!!!

In you case, that makes it a four-letter word!

Here's a question for all you bible-thumping literalists out there ...

What does the phrase "godisnowhere" mean to you?

" Peacetroll:
I'm not homosexual you maroon."

Oh... Did I say that? no.... Seems you did."

"My blood brother is."

Ah, so, of course, you honor this person in keeping with that oath...

"But he is intelligent and honest enough to realize its not natural nor acceptable behaviour in the site of God."

In what 'site' would this be?

One where he's an 'unnatural pervert' and all those nasty things you say about gay people?

See how those literal words can get in the way?

Particularly when you *can't even spell?*

"You gay imbeciles who wish to propagate your mental illness on others are sick and have totally seared your conciouss."

Actually, it's the 'sight of God' that's supposed to 'sear the consciousness.' That's kind of why all those guys melted and exploded in Raiders of the Lost Ark. :)

"A violation against God and Nature. ITS UNLOGICAL and obviously a mental illness."

Ah. Unlogical. Wait. God and Nature? I though Nature was *bad,* thus making all of us 'consciousless beasts' for embracing Nature.

"THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS YOU PROPAGATE YOURSELVES SEEKING Proselytes! ARE YOU ALL THAT THICK YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE FUNDAMENTAL POINT?"

*peeking from behind mirror.* Sorry? I was busy trying to parse your spelling.

Proseltizing hoosexuality? Honey, no one "converts" to being gay, lesbian, bi, or transgender. You either are or you ain't.

Troll:

Actually, I seriously doubt that PaganPlace seeks your god's approval. She has the approval of her gods, so why would she need the approval of a god she doens't worship?

I'm not homosexual you maroon.

My blood brother is.

But he is intelligent and honest enough to realize its not natural nor acceptable behaviour in the site of God.

You gay imbeciles who wish to propagate your mental illness on others are sick and have totally seared your conciouss.

A violation against God and Nature. ITS UNLOGICAL and obviously a mental illness.

THE WHOLE PROBLEM IS YOU PROPAGATE YOURSELVES SEEKING Proselytes! ARE YOU ALL THAT THICK YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THIS SIMPLE FUNDAMENTAL POINT?

Umm... Peacetroll.. If you're 'sick in the head' what makes you think you have the talismanic 'cure...' ...if you're still sick.

How does saying these things make you *feel.*

Well?

Sick?

Distracted from something within?

Is this gay people's problem?

Or yours?

Oh, your poor brother!

Brambleton, you may be right about this: "As far as the authenticity of the Bible, I could offer the same doubts about Homer's Iliad or Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War."

The important difference is that that we don't worship the main characters of those books as the son of God and we don't take the stories from those books as literal fact by which we must live or else burn in hell for eternity.

So, it doesn't matter so much if those books aren't "authentic" - we can still go on enjoying them as ancient writings.

I'd bet if we found good evidence that those books were not factual, it would be on the front page of the papers - Unlike what happens with the Bible. Scholars know it's not factual - clergy learn about it in seminary, but somehow the info doesn't filter down much to the public -- and when it does, many people tend not to accept it, because it goes against what they've heard their whole lives - from the general media and from the people in whom they place the most trust.

It's a bad situation -- but one's that's slowly improving, thanks to forums like this.

Pagan-head.

You missed the point you imbecile.

My own brother is gay.

The difference between him and you sick folks is that you try to get the approval of society in masse'.

You desperately seek God's approval.

You will not obtain it.

We who know Christ realize we are sick. We realize we have our failing. YOu sick perverts try to divert it from being a sickness into something 'normal'.

The whole arguement ostensibly went "OVER YOUR HEAD".

" The Peacetroll.:

"Lepid,

You sleep well because yOU HAVE NO CONCIOUSNESS BEYOND THAT OF A BEAST."

Anyone who says that right-wing Christian and homophobic dogma doesn't dehumanize people....

Remember that.

Pablo has a hell of alot better grasp on God's directions then you.

ROCK ON PABLO!

THESE VIPERS DESPERATELY WANT THEIR SICKNESS TO BE APPROVED BY GOD, HOPING TO PROPAGATE THEIR DISEASE ON ANYONE POSSIBLE> SICK

BEING homosexual is not the worst issue they have, for we all fall short of glory, but the evil they do not recognize is in that that try to push their nefarious ways as 'NORM'. THEIR SERIOUSLY SICK.

--THE PEACE TROLL AKA DUSTPROPHET/GREYPROPHET

Jenna,

Could you direct me to the Bible scripture that indicates God created man and woman together simultaneously? I've only ever read that woman was created from man. Genesis 2:22-23, "So the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. The Lord God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man."

As an aside, I believe most translations really lose some meaning by using the word "rib", when in fact, the word used is "sidon" - which means exactly what it sounds like.

Lepid,

You sleep well because yOU HAVE NO CONCIOUSNESS BEYOND THAT OF A BEAST.

Goodbye.

Ta Ta

To Mark Eaton: If you think it is a sin, then don't do it. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Mark Eaton said: "There is no contradiction in Scripture. What is forbidden in one passage is not permitted in another."

In fact, there are many places where the bible is literally inconsistent. Spinoza wrote a book on the problem. Inconsistencies start even from from the first two chapters of Genesis (did God create man and then took woman from his rib, or did he create man and woman together). Likewise, the whole sabbath observance matter (Saturday or Sunday) is inherently inconsistent between the Old and New Testaments. Perhaps Mark would like to have a second or third wife or concubine or two. No problem in the Old Testament. I don't want to start a debate on the merits of these issues, only to point out that there are inconsistencies, and things that are forbidden in one part are permitted in another, commandments are changed or eliminated, and new ones added.

The church handles these matters by interpreting the passages so that they are not blatantly inconsistent -- limiting the commandments regarding keeping Kosher to the Jews, for example. The same process of interpretation can be used as well in deciding that a loving committed homosexual union is not barred by looking at the passages at issue and reading them in context, just as the church does for other passages. The point is that there is no one right answer here. Its always a matter of interpretation.

Nice retort Buddy. Always nice to hear from the "Am I Dumber than a 5th Grader" crowd.

Mark, you said:
Read the Bible. Do not speak about Biblical views in any other way. If you do, it is your opinion you speak then not Scripture. Scripture helps us define the mind of God. The mind of God is 180 degrees opposed to the mind of man.

My reply:
If you possess the hubris to think that you can define the mind of God, then you have my pity. What madness drove you to make such a despicable statement?

I'm supposed to take moral instructions from a jailbird? Mind your own business, hypocrite.

I agree with 100% of what Chuck says.

Read the Bible. Do not speak about Biblical views in any other way. If you do, it is your opinion you speak then not Scripture. Scripture helps us define the mind of God. The mind of God is 180 degrees opposed to the mind of man.

Show any of us within Biblical passages where it is OK to engage in same-sex. We can show you many passages where it is not. There is no contradiction in Scripture. What is forbidden in one passage is not permitted in another. Same-sex is SIN, plain and simple.

It is also not feasible to interpret the Bible in light of today's morality or intellect. Rather, the Bible teaches you not to do. It tells us not to be seduced by philosophies and to cast down arguments and high thoughts that come against the knowledge of God.

So for a church to take a positive stance on same-sex, meands that the church no longer recognizes the authority of Scripture. And that is OK if the organization is no longer called a church. But to continue to call itself a Christian church, is indedd incorrect.

Oops, double post. Sorry, folks.

Hey, Lep,

You said, "Every available sperm was needed on baby-making detail."

Well, of course, I immediately started singing,

Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate.

Fantastic movie, 'Life of Brian'. But much misunderstood by the literalist crowd.

You do crawfish boils? Oooooohhh.......(drool)
Count me out for superbowl. If you do something during baseball playoffs, well, that's another matter!

Give 'em hell, dear lady.

Hey, Lep,

You said, "Every available sperm was needed on baby-making detail."

Well, of course, I immediately started singing,

Every sperm is sacred
Every sperm is great
If a sperm is wasted
God gets quite irate.

Fantastic movie, 'Life of Brian'.

You do crawfish boils? Oooooohhh.......(drool)
Count me out for superbowl. If you do something during baseball playoffs, well, that's another matter!

Give 'em hell, dear lady.

On homosexuality, there is an open question whether the Bible barred all homosexuality or just homosexuality used in pagan religious practices of the day in Canaan in the time of Moses (or Rome in the time of Paul). The passage in Leviticus is part of a broader commendation of pagan rites.

For that reason, even literal bible believers can approve a loving committed homosexual union of two adults as moral and not barred. I agree with Chuck that we should not engage in pagan sexual rites in front of the alter. Beyond that he can have his own view of what the bible means, and I can have mine. The important thing (which Chuck never will understand) is that his views are not the only proper, moral views. He missed that point in the White House and he misses that point now.

I see that Chuck Colson is as stiff-necked and narrow-minded as a "so-called Christian" as he was as a politician. I don't recall there being a Gospel according to Chuck.

It seems that the more religious freedom people have in this country, the more intolerant these same people are of others.

I see that Chuck Colson is as stiff-necked and narrow-minded as a "so-called Christian" as he was as a politician. I don't recall there being a Gospel according to Chuck.

It seems that the more religious freedom people have in this country, the more intolerant these same people are of others.

That's right, Brambelton, forget Jesus...quote everyone BUT the one Christianity was named for!

Also, you are a liar...teh word used is effimnate, NOT homosexual. And NO, they are not synonyms (that means different words for the same thing).

Paul,

Actually, I don't think of myself as a "literalist" when it comes to the Bible.

As far as the authenticity of the Bible, I could offer the same doubts about Homer's Iliad or Thucydides' history of the Peloponnesian War.

And althougth the Bible doesn't detail each and every sinful act, it does clearly speak out about many of them. Perhaps that is why the Bible is simply the book of Paul. While you have his anger and frustration with mankind on one end of the spectrum, you have Solomon's take regarding relationship/sex/marriage on the other.

And by two centuries i meant of course nearly two millenia... My mistake.

Brambleton

How can you have a literalist view, word for word, of a Bible which, as I and others have noted here, has been passed along for two centuries through extrememyl questionable preservation of its original intent/meaning. To quote text in English that was written in attic greek and hebrew originally by people living in a civilization whose moral concepts were so far off from the norms of today that they are incomparable is not the most effective way of making a point. Also, to use any of St. Paul's discourses on secxual morality to prove the point is tough, because it is commonly accepted that after his conversion, and especially after his trips to Rome, Paul's views on the subject were more of a disgusted reaction to the morals of his own time, not an extension of the beliefs or teachings of Christ. If Paul had had his way none of us would be having sex.

Cheers,

Paul S. Boudreau

DG,

I appreciate your words, and I would agree that Christians need to do a much better job of being a good steward for Jesus Christ in the application of His love and compassion.

However, Homosexuality is clearly spelled out in the Bible as being a sin. 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Neither the sexually immoral . . . nor homosexual offenders . . ". Leviticus 18:22, "Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind, it is abomination." Romans 1:24-32. Romans 8:1. Song of Solomon, Chapter 4. The list goes on and on.

Again, we are commanded by God to love one another, but we are also instructed to hold each other accountable. If you told me you were watching pornography everyday, I would fail you as a Christian brother if I didn't hold you accountable to overcoming your sin. That is not to imply my sins are any less.

Over the centuries Christians have been presented with many questions that don't seem to be adressed adequately in the bible. There also are many instances where we find conflicting messages. We are also confronted with things like science, technology, psycology, unknown in the ancient world that seem to make many biblical precepts completely out dated and many times even cruel. How do we resolve these issues? Christ gave us explicit instructions. Love one another. If you are presented with a dilema, if you cannot determine what is right, if the bible seems to contradict itself, one law takes precident over all others. Love one another. Is homosexuality a sin? No. But even for those of you who believe it is, it does not matter at all what you think. The law that takes precident over all others is that we love one another. Gays should be respected and loved. They should be able to participate fully in the church, they should not be persecuted or discrimated against in any way. To do this would be to break the commandments that takes precident over all other commandments, to love God with all our hearts, and to love one another.

Pablo:

Do I beleive the Bible is God's word? It's your god's word - none of my deities had anything to do with the creation of it.

I beleive there is much wisdom in your mythology - and much dreck. I also believe there is both wisdom and dreck in the mythologies of the cultures from which much of your Bible was copied. And I think it's always a mistake to take one culture's mythology and try to impose it on alien cultures as a literal, universal One True Path.

Does that answer your question?

lepidopteryx & Fiver,

Do you believe that the Bible is God's word? Have you ever read the New Testament? Homosexuality is condemned in both the Old and New Testaments. Are mixed fiber clothing and shell fish condemned in the New Testament for Gentiles? (Read the Book of Acts and 1 Corinthians for the answer). Loving one's neighbor includes telling the truth about sin so that the enslaved person will realize they need to change. Jesus did this in John chapter four with the woman at the well. Homosexuality is unnatural and is the Mark of God's judgment on a sinful society. The mases always reject God's word. Remember Noah the whole world rejected him and laughed at him but they were laughing no more when they drown in the flood.

Peacetroll:

Coming from you, I' going to take thoes comments as compliments.

And my conscience is just fine. I sleep quite well at night, and other than a bad case of bedhead, have no difficulty facing the mirror every morning. But thanks for your concern.

Lepid you goonball.

Of course there are many sins, but the deference between those who follow truth and those who don't is this simple fact:

Those who love Christ in truth ackowledge their downfalls, while apostate self-centered beast-people try to propagate their defects as 'OK'.

I hope that explanation is simple enough for even a dim-wit like you to understand.

Sear your concious, its only you who will regret the loss of understanding.

Amen Charles W. "Chuck" Colson,

One of the few panelist' to atleast have a similitude of truth.

PABLO:
**Homosexuality is unnatural and God says it is sin.**

Eating shellfish is a sin, according to your book, so I guess I won't invite you to my next crawfich boil.

Touching swine flesh or skin is a sin according to your book, so you're off the Super Bowl party invite list too, since I'm sure you wouldn't want to sit around watching all those guys in helmets and shoulder pads sin repeatedly.

Wearing garments of mixed fibers is a sin according to your book, so I hope for your sake there are no poly/cotton blends in your closet.

According to your book, male children are to be cirumsized at 8 days old. Not to do so is a sin.

According to your book, menstruating women are not allowed to enter the temple.

According to your book, women are to keep silent in church and not cut their hair short.

Now, if those sins were only sinful for a specific people in a specific context, and no longer apply, then how can you be so sure that homosexuality is no longer a sin?

In a primitive desert culture that was constantly at war with neighboring clans, there was a driving need to keep the birth:death ratio at least 1:1, preferably higher since women would not be in the armies. So semen would have been considered a valuable resource. Every available sperm was needed on baby-making detail. That's no longer the case, however. There's not exactly a birth dearth in the human species.

You have got to be kidding me. This from a guy who did nixon's dirty bidding. It is kind of interesting how we always have these jailhouse conversions. Religion is truly a virus of the mind and chuck colson has the virus.

Leave it to Christians to be distressed about a maligned group getting treated fairly.

Maybe a few decades of real persecution would put things in perspective for you wacky cultists.

Come on you haters, you gotta be smarter than the post key. Post and refresh. Repeat after me: Post. And. Refresh...

Another thing about the author: he collects millions from the government to promote his faith-based ministry, which shows no evidence of any effectiveness.

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

Why is it that the more born-again a Republican is, the more he rejects Jesus' explicit teaching?

Compare Matthew 25 with the sociopathic policies promulgated by W and his cronies who purport to adhere to the "culture of life":

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.'

46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Wow, "LOT" is turning over in His Grave, Like "ADAM" & "EVE" et al! Ya Ya Punkarino's! ya ya!

Creepy Forum This !

Are we to let Chuck Colsen tell the rest of us how to live with integrity ?

How did Cole Porter out it?
"Chills run up and down my spine... "

Hasn't he used up his 15 minutes of Fame?

They report, We decide. I already did.

When I was young my church taught me that Jesus was not judgmental. I kinda still believe that.

Thank you for your time.

Susan

When I was young my church taught me that Jesus was not judgemental. I kinda still believe that.

Thank you for your time.

Susan

When I was young my church taught me that Jesus was not judgemental. I kinda still believe that.

Thank you for your time.

Susan

The problem here is simple. Your "biblical standards" are anything but. They are the hateful misinterpretation of scripture to put down those different from "the majority". Once you acknowledge that most religious "teachings" are little more than the majority justifying THEIR lifestyle and choices, you will begin to understand why so much of current day religion is anything but religious ... or holy. It is downright the work of the devil himself.

Chuck is not a Lutheran.

So why does he feel the need to comment?

Is Colson suggesting that there are those among us who are 2,000 years old? That reminds me of Mel Brooks biblical interpretations.

Is Colson suggesting that there are those among us who are 2,000 years old? That reminds me of Mel Brooks biblical interpretations.

Get a grip, Chuck.

Why is it that it's not enough for people like you to police your own lives? From where I sit, that sure looks like it would be a full-time job!

Pablo,

Thank you for God's word. A couple of questions though: Will evangelical/fundamentalists all go to hell for hating their neighbor? For not eating kosher? For the rank hypocrisy of Rev. Colson who was "born again" only because he was facing a lengthy prison sentence (and for later profit)?

Or will the evangelical/fundamentalists only go to hell because they are (as mountains of anecdotal evidence has shown) the gayest sect of Christianity on the planet? Should I ask Rev. Haggard? Jim Baker? Chris Foley? Newt Gingrich? Sgt. Sanchez?

Pablo????

Sorry, Chuck. There was no Bible in the first century. Nobody could have been martyred for it then.

Jesus had decided not to make a Second Coming to earth after all, concluding that it would be cosmically unwise.

He then read Mr. Colson's screed and returned long enough, an hour ago, to toss the following message through the WaPo's transom. It is addressed to Mr. Colson, and to the WaPO for giving him a soapbox:

"CC & WP:

"YOU HAVE SAT AND WRITTEN TOO LONG HERE FOR ANY GOOD YOU HAVE BEEN DOING. DEPART, I SAY, AND LET US HAVE DONE WITH YOU. IN THE NAME OF GOD, GO!."**

**From The Second Hermetic Book of Revelation 56:11.

One of Jesus's better sayings.

God's Word Follows

The Judgment at Christ’s Coming

"This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, when he comes on that day to be glorified in his saints, and to be marveled at among all who have believed, because our testimony to you was believed. To this end we always pray for you, that our God may make you worthy of his calling and may fulfill every resolve for good and every work of faith by his power, so that the name of our Lord Jesus may be glorified in you, and you in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ"(2 Thessalonians 1:5-12).

Homosexuality is unnatural and God says it is sin. I am not surprised that all the sin loving posters are angry with Mr Colson. God's true spokesmen are always rejected just like Jesus was at the cross. God will not tolerate homosexuality remember Sodom and Gomorrah. God sent His angels to destroy reprobates there and He will destroy all those who will not repent with everlasting destruction away from the presence of the Lord.

What a disgraceful, felonious moron. The martyrs of the first century never had a New Testament. When they gave their lives, it was for words such as "Love one another." I am still looking for Christ's words in my New Testament against gay marriage.

I do see where Christ talked about marriage, and divorce -- He said that people remarried are adulterers, Chuck.

Give me a break. This is a man of the far right wing of the politico-evangelical church who supports the far right's politico-evangelical doctrine and comportment, i.e.:
1. Richard Nixon's Watergate and his prolonging of the Vietnamese War.
2. George Bush's vanity war in Iraq, his secret spying, politicization of the Justice Department, publicizing the identity of a covert CIA agent, annulment of habeas corpus, use of torture, recreation the presidency/administration into a Republicans-only-need-apply governmental office, institution of a scorched earth environment policy, and use of the Congress to pass a bill to demand feeding tubes for a brain dead woman (Terri Shiavo). That same group remained remarkably silent, however, when Billy Graham, one of them, pulled the tubes on his own comatose-but-living wife.
Hypocritical--you bet. Moral--not on your life.

With Jesus's love and compassion for the outcasts of society and his disdain for the self-righteous religious and political leaders of his day, I find it difficult to believe that the religious Right still considers him their model. The Right has so perverted the true meaning of Christianity.

I once read your book Kingdoms in Conflict and had high respect for you. You've made some public statements over the last few years that I have found incendiary and opposed to the spirit you conveyed in that book. I've lost respect for you and your opinions. Your conduct in public service during the Watergate scandal was obviously not the highest moral example for our nation, let alone for Christians.

I have two questions for you:

1. Have you been forgiven by God for your crimes, which continue to have ongoing negative effects upon our nation?

2. How much larger are those sins than the sins of Christians who are struggling with sexuality?

"Forgive us our sins, as we forgive those who sin against us."

In the Parable of the Wedding Banquet (Matthew 22:1-14), we see a God who invites everyone to the feast. It's finally up to God to determine who has the proper wedding attire and deserves to be at the banquet. Don't be so certain that it's gays that will be kicked out. It may be you or me, unless we take on the spirit of love and forgiveness that Jesus had, which led to the very political death he suffered at the hands of the political forces of the day.

As I recall in your early career you knew a few things about how to inflict political persecution. It strikes me that you're still very capable in this regard. The more things change, the less people change.

Hi! I'm a Lutheran pastor that is glad the ELCA took one small step toward proclaiming God's love and justice more clearly. If you want more good news check out LCNA.org, Lutheranslove.org, or LLGM.org, and LutheranConfessions.com. These are websites of organizations dedicated to sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ with and for people of all sexual orientations and gender identities.

Peace,
Rev. Michael Wilker
Lutheran Volunteer Corps

Not surprising at all. Protestants, and, especially, Lutherans, are a**holes.

Which of our Christian martyrs died to keep gays out of the Church? Name one, please. When you invoke the martyrs of the Church, it really helps put things in perspective. The obsession some "Christians" have with homosexuality is truly perverse.

Just why would anyone care what Chuck Colsen thinks about anything moral or religious?

Chuck,
Which of our Christian martyrs died to keep gays out of the church? Name one, please. When you invoke the martyrs of the Church, it really helps put things in perspective. The obsession some "Christians" have with homosexuality is truly perverse.

Charles Colson is a classic example of the old saying "Religion is the last refuge of scoundrels and thieves."

We'll stop being distressed when your kind stops being arrested with their pants down in the company of prostitutes of either sex, or when your kind stops digging into the till, or both.

Your ilk is so hypocritical that it is nauseating.

We'll stop being distressed when your kind stops being arrested with their pants down in the company of prostitutes of either sex, or when your kind stops digging into the till, or both.

Your ilk is so hypocritical that it is nauseating.

Chuck,
Which of our Christian martyrs died to keep gays out of the church? Name one, please. When you invoke the martyrs of the Church, it really helps put things in perspective. The obsession some "Christians" have with homosexuality is truly perverse.

F. Nietzsche's dictum about the death of God refers precisely to the accomodating ways in which modern Christianity retools God to the prevailing trends.

F. Nietzsche's dictum about the death of God refers precisely to the accomodating ways in which modern Christianity retools God to the prevailing trends.

I hate Gays!

I hate Liberals!

I hate Christians!

I hate Chuck Colson the most!

No, I hate Chuck Colson the most and I'm a christian!

"Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated."
- George Bernard Shaw

I shall never permit myself to stoop so low as to hate any man.
- Booker T. Washington

I find it hard to take seriously the moral outrage of Christians like Mr. Colson over the loosening of church policy on same-sex relationships when they choose to remain silent on other moral issues of at least equal importance, such as the torture of prisoners by our government. Is there anyone with even a passing familiarity with the Bible who would contend that Christ would approve of torture? If you listen to Mr. Colson and other evangelical leaders you get the impression that "Biblical teachings" have nothing to do with any issue other than human sexuality and reproduction. Someone should ask Mr. Colson why he keeps ignoring the other ninety percent of what Christ said.

Doesn't the Post do background checks on those it allows to write for the Post? Especially in the On Faith section where a criminal background would be worth knowing about when people write from a moral authority they claim for themselves.

Charles Colson is free to be a bigot. Everyone is. There is a choice Jesus gives us. Law or Compassion. In Sunday's common lectionary, Jesus heals a woman bent over for 18 years. The legalistic head of the synagogue said, "It is wrong to seak healing on the Sabbath." For the legalist, there was no place for Jesus. Only the common people saw and understood what he was offering. "Love your enemy, pray for them," does not mean to simply tolerate. It means, as Martin Luther said long ago, "Help that enemy neighbor to prosper."
The Lutheran community of faith is healthy and strong and we still have a message of compassion to proclaim

"Nature Red with Tooth and Claw"...

would any sort of all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing, god make such a thing as a 'perfect' design?

Seems to me that that 'design' is one arranged around a terror of one sort of another.

Fear, terror, pain as one is being pulled apart from some predator, this to me is that which comprises the Christian, 'god-designed' world for 'nature.'

Surely it is that for use 'evil' humans who each day who oft times finds ourselves driven by a fear of any variety of human, or natural predator.

Seems to me, the Bible's impulse is to 'institutionalize' such in nature and turn it into a divine mandate for anything that breathes...

Your 'god', Mr. Colson is just one of many of those types of gods of war, and in the Christian sense, this all-loving being is one that seeks the blood of all. In one short turn with this god, he is one who longs for animal, and human blood. He lives when men kill in his name.

Mr. Colson, you found 'jesus' when you went to prison, and now you fly, resurrected, as one set free from death, as you flap your new wings in a most holy circle.

Perhaps if you did not have a tax exemption where upon you live off the LABOR of other American citizens, you'd not feel so free. Perhaps then, you, not being any longer able to practice law would have found another gravy train?

In my view, the frauds you now speak as a spokesman for some form (Christian Reconstructionist) of Evangelicalism, fundamentalism only mimic those holy, political ones you blankly told during your days in the White House years.

Only, now, those lies you posit as 'absolute' truth are far more dangerous.

How are the Navigator's these days?

From, Markin Texas, where a fella can kick a bush and find 6-8 different types of Christian fundamentalist jump out and each damn the other to holy hell, and of course, anyone who would doubt any of it at all...

F. Nietzsche's dictum about the death of God refers precisely to the accomodating ways in which modern Christianity retools God to the prevailing trends.

F. Nietzsche's dictum about the death of God refers precisely to the accomodating ways in which modern Christianity retools God to the prevailing trends.

"Nature Red with Tooth and Claw"... would any sort of all-powerful, all-loving, all-knowing, Christian god make such a thing as a design?

Seems to me that that 'design' is one arranged around a terror of one sort of another.

Fear, terror, pain as one is being pulled apart from some predator, this to me is that which comprises the Christian, 'god-designed' world for 'nature.'

Surely it is that for use 'evil' humanans who each day who oft times finds ourselves driven by a fear of any variety of human predator.

Seems to me, the Bible's impulse is to 'institutionalize' such in nature and turn it into a divine mandate for anything that breathes...

Your 'god', Mr. Colson is just one of many of those types of gods of war, and in the Christian sense, this all-loving being is one that seeks the blood of all. In one short turn with this god, he is one who longs for animal, and human blood. He lives when men kill in his name.

Mr. Colson, you found 'jesus' when you went to prison, and now you fly, resurrected, as one set free from death.

Perhaps if you did not have a tax exemption where upon you live off the LABOR of other American citizens, you'd not feel so free. Perhaps then, you, not being any longer able to practice law would have found another gravy trail.

In my view, the frauds you now speak as a spokesman for some form (Christian Reconstructionist) Evangelicalism, fundamentalism only mimick those holy, political ones you blankly told during your days in the White House years.

Only, now, those lies you posit as 'absolute' truth are far more dangerous.

How are the Navigator's these days?

From, Markin Texas, where a fella can kick a bush and find 6-8 different types of Christian fundamentalist jump out and each damn the other to holy hell, and of course, anyone who would doubt any of it at all...

Note: This Is repeat Material hereion & under! Thank You HUMATES!

"Wow, LOT is turning over in His Grave, Like "ADAM" & "EVE" et al! Ya Ya Punkarino's!"

How is Chuck Colson Qualified to question the theology and biblical interpretation capability of a major church body? He's basically a reformed conservative poltical criminal turned reactionary evangelical whose god is as small as his mind and his heart. Come on. Are we supposed to respect this guy?

C A S S A N D R A; et al;
Wow! ".. two things.."???

Reading Chuck Colsons vitriolic drivel reminds one that there are always individuals who set themselves up in the role of arbiters of others. Frankly, his own "moral authority" is rather suspect given his activities in the Watergate scandal of the Nixon administration. And, where does he get off thinking that he is the sole decider of what is and is not Christianity!?! His remarks are a shameful and ongoing misrepresentation of what Christianity and people of faith are truly about. Possibly he has listened to his buddy in the White House just a bit too much.

So, the systematic extirpation of traditional Christianity in these great American Protestant churches ends, unsurprisingly, in the apotheosis of mediocrity and the sacralization of buggery. From here on out expect mere bathos and farce. The second -raters and perverts who white-anted these Churches and now control them are only interested in two things: revenge for the resentment they feel in the face of the disgust they arouse in decent folk, and control of the real estate. They will use the cash raised from the latter to accomplish the former, then to profit themselves, while people like me (8th generation traditional Episcopalian) are dispossessed of a spiritual home and a material church. We will not forget who did this, or why.

Wow, LOT is turning over in His Grave, Like "ADAM" & "EVE" et al! Ya Ya Punkarino's!

I'm looking at your commentary, and I don't even know what you are talking about...Are you a Christiam without love? Without tolerance or compassion? without the word of Christ in your heart.. Perhaps...My grandparents were Christian missionaries, but I am not a Christian. To me, Christianity is a cult. And you seem to prove it.

Who is Charles Colson, a convicted criminal, to preach Christian morality to the rest of us -- or, more particularly, to tell Lutherans as a faith community, of which he is not a member, how they ought to interpret Biblical morality? For that matter, who is Charles Colson to tell us what "Biblical morality" is? Where is the Gospel in all of this? This guy is a religious fraud trying to redeem himself by public poses, and you in the media just suck it up.

I am always amazed when the post and others pick this sleeze bag for comments on morality.
He is a convicted fellow who has spent his post prison years infiltrating prisons with his facism in the guize of right wing religion.
The immorality is people who try to destroy the lives who only want the same rights as every other citizen in this country.
In my opinion main line Protestants have not been moral enough in affirming persons of same sex orientation as worthy of God's love (something the creator did long ago when he created a human race in which homosexuality was one of many diverse ways of giving the world a rich texture of humanity).
Washington Post stop publishing this immoral person's comments...send him back to the dark hole he crawed out of...I'm sure if you look back to the 1960's he was trying to keep Afro-Americans down too, so so Christian.

Casting bigoted aspersions while hiding behind a religious orthodoxy is revolting, Mr. Colson. If you personally hate homosexuals, liberals or Christian denominations other than your own, then just say so and don’t claim to be the innocent messenger of one the world’s great religions. Christianity does not teach hatred of any of the groups you freely denounce.

I understand why the author desperately wants to believe that the bible contains everything he needs to know.

But God gave him free will and a brain, and surely will be pissed if he doesn't use the one just because he is afraid of the other.

Here's a religious concept that I'd like to see touted: "Claiming to know the mind of God is the greatest heresy."

Colson is a rigid literalist when it comes to the Bible, even to following its irrational bigotries and hatreds and misunderstandings to the letter, wherever and whenever they appear in the Holy Scriptures. Give in just a little and open your heart, your whole world would cave in, wouldn't it Chuck? You are a lost soul!

Really. The debate is not whether homosexuality is or is not a sin. The debate is whether or not homosexuality should be kept in the closet. After constant revelations of nearly every prominent homo-bigoted evangelical turning up with little boys or gay hookers, shouldn't the question be whether any fundamentalist christians aren't gay? And ashamed?

And Lutherans (or non-Lutherans for that matter) should care what a "faith-based" huckster has to say......

Really, Colson and the other grazers at the evangelical set-aside trough know little of theology. And his sloganeering lack of a real theological argument is a good example of this. Apparently, he never came across Rheinhold Niebuhr, an evangelical who also was a democratic socialist, a prominent liberal commentator and one of the most important figures of the mid-20th century anti-Communist Left.

This series seems to be has filled with no end of hackdom and shallow reasoning mascarading as religious commentary.

Hey There Tommy, As a lesbian, would you mind telling me what the "Gay Agenda" is? I don't know about it, other than I ask for equal rights under the law, not the church. Remember "Separation of Church and State?" When will you "get" it? Soon I hope, before you meet Your Creator, which I suspect is the same as mine.

The hate being vented for Mr. Colson here is quite astounding.
Seems to me many here are trying to invent their own religions. Good luck.

Fine words from Colson the convicted perjurer.
Bob Dylan had his ilk pegged:
You always said people don't do what they believe in,
they just do what's most convenient,
then they repent.
"Brownsville Girl"

Charles Colson should read these posts and then drop to his his knees to beg forgiveness for violating God's Word and totally misunderstanding and misinterpreting the meaning of the Bible and of Jesus' ministry of compassion!

Joseph wrote, "It's a problem when religious leaders such as Chuck Colson replace societal and personal moral "standards" with Biblical values."

No, Joseph, you have it exactly backwards. It's a problem when so-called Christian denominations replace biblical values with societal and personal moral standards.

Go ahead and set your own moral standards; I'll strive to live by those set by the Creator of the universe.

Sad to see Colson is continuing his political work under the guise of ministry.
His brand of Christianity is not Christianity, it is politics. More nixon then Jesus.

You state that John Gresham Machen said, almost a century ago, that liberal Christianity is not a brand of Christianity: it is simply another religion altogether -- liberalism. What tripe.

Jesus Christ said over 2000 years ago "that you must serve me in Spirit and in truth"; Paul said without love you are as a sounding brass, a tinkling cymbal" and Jesus said "follow Me". He said that unequivocally, without adding yours, mine and certainly not personal fundamentalist Christian notions of what that means.

The greatest issue I have with conservative Christians and politicians is your consistent attitude is like the man in the temple who said "thank God, I am not like that sinner, while the sinner confesses that he is a sinner and said "Lord, have mercy on me." You have so stretched, in some places and constrained in others, the simple Gospel that millions of your followers actions show that they truly don't know what to believe, they are just copycatting and hope you know what you are talking about. Many are spiritually illiterate. See, it takes the Holy Spirit to illuminate the words on the page, to give them meaning, purpose and life for each of us individually. I see many conservatives having bad cases of "group think". Individual revelation couldn't come in with a jack hammer because you have them too frightened of manmade spiritual bogeymen circumscribed by old fashioned peer pressure. You have stretched the meaning of the Gospel to ensure that your actions are only called into question only when it is truly beyond the pale and gets into the public square; while you constrain it to ensure that those who follow you keep narrow, narrow-minded, joyless, judgemental, sometimes violent views of who God is and what he really wants from us and who is in or out.

All through scripture you see the scarlet thread of redemption and mercy; time after time, God stretching out His hand, wooing us, keeping us and allowing mercy to hold back justice. Many conservatives, even those who teach and espouse a religious basis for their lifes seem to live as if their actions should only have favorable consequences for themselves and only those who share their beliefs. You act as if even God should judge you based on who you are, your status, money, power, and publishing credits and as if these things give you the right to set Christian behavioral norms. I don't think the writers of the old or Testaments would have found much room at many churches or Christian organizations today. I also impossible to believe that Jesus would have found it impossible to embrace current conservative dogma. The Woman at the Well would have gotten a metaphorical rock upside her head, much as she would have gotten a real one from some inside Islam. Fundamentalism is the same the world over.

Much of American conservatism seems bigoted, personality driven and devoid of the Spirit of God. You seem always to be looking outward to blame and label without the spiritual capability to see the log in your own eyes. Have you truly asked yourself if any of your beliefs and actions dishonor God? Is He pleases with all you write, say or do? Are there times you should have chastised one of your brothers or friends or a person in power but did not because they say they shared your personal ideologies.

The Bible makes it apparent that you don't have to embrace sin to embrace the sinner. We are all sinners and yet Jesus says "Behold, I stand at the door and knock..." Liberalism, conservatism, whatever. Do you really think your branding of youself and others is really going to weigh in with God?

Not all Christians believe that every word in the Bible is infallible. I have infinite faith in the person and words of Christ, but I do not believe the epistles of Paul are error free.

My life experience taught me this. My father was bipolar, and his illness led him to severely abuse me. (Strangulation, slamming my head against the wall... really awful stuff.) My devout, Bible reading Christian mother allowed this to continue for years- because the Bible says "wives submit yourselves to your husbands as to the Lord".

If the Bible is error-free, my mother was right. She wouldn't have told the Lord he was being too rough with me, so how could she possibly oppose her husband? But I continue to believe St. Paul was wrong, and that my mother should have protected me.

And if Paul was wrong about total wifely submission, it remains possible that he was wrong about homosexuality as well.

Biblical values? Does the writer mean like "thou shalt not commit adultery", which I take to mean, "don't violate your neighbor's underage daughter so she becomes worthless as chattel" (what else could it mean)? The reason I got out of Christianity after many years of listening to hypocrites complain about how other people should live their lives is because I tired of the hatred. I found the level of hatred that it was necessary to feel toward my fellow humankind in order to be recognized as a Christian by other Christians wearing. The idea of leading my life according to Stone Age precepts and Medieval superstition, to paraphrase Carl Sagan, was finally too absurd even for me to keep up. Finally, I learned something about ethical decision making and concluded that the Bible is a lousy guide to life. I never did figure out if God said it because it is true, or if it's true because God said it. It is much more practical to learn about multiple-strategies utilitarianism, and to make ethical decisions on that basis.

but which bible is true? The catholic one, the protestant one, the king james one, the one that mr colson carries around with him? Which translation? Which copy? Which version? and with which insertions made over the millenea, none of which we can identify for certain?

Not to mention, of course, Mr. Colson's own extremely "conservative" or Republican, or narrow-minded interpretation of whichever of the above he uses.

In short, Mr. Colson seems to be in a majority of one, and if he choses to call that a religion, well, fine, but it is a very lonely and mean-spirited religion, and he can have it.

Jesus preferred the good samaritan, who showed his love by deeds, not by the book he slavishly followed.

Colsen's unloving views regarding homosexuality, so in contrast with the enlightened teachings of Jesus,simply alert us to how the devil is able to work through people in such creative and ingenious ways.

I am tired of convicted criminals opining on the morality of the rest of us, even if they have served their time. I am tired of religious worrying so much about other people's religion. In fact, I am tired of religion entirely. If we're really looking for more division, more war, more intolerance, look no further than Mr. Colson's religion.

I am tired of convicted criminals opining on the morality of the rest of us, even if they have served their time. I am tired of religious worrying so much about other people's religion. In fact, I am tired of religion entirely. If we're really looking for more division, more war, more intolerance, look no further than Mr. Colson's religion.

I am tired of convicted criminals opining on the morality of the rest of us, even if they have served their time. I am tired of religious worrying so much about other people's religion. In fact, I am tired of religion entirely. If we're really looking for more division, more war, more intolerance, look no further than Mr. Colson's religion.

The hypocrisy of Chuck Colson preaching morality to others is breathtaking.

Every time I read comments from mean-spirited crooks like Mr. Colson, I realize that most Christians have ZERO interest in getting to know God. Christians are far more interested in worshiping THEMSELVES, and derive what little self-esteem they have from hanging around people who are as selfish and mean-spirited as they are.

The idea of Chuck Colson preaching morality to others is mind-numbing in its audacity.

/***
I don't know much about Colson or his politics, but he seems to be on the right side of the argument. If you profess to be a Christian and go to a Christian church and are not using the Bible as the moral truth, then why exactly are you there? This trend to try to legitimize immoral behavior yet claiming to follow God's word astounds me to no end.
***/

Well jeepers,then I presume you don't want a single divorced people in any christian church, either. After all, the bible says, "What God hath joined together, let no man put asuner!"

Whaddya say, big-mouthed christian hypocrites? If you don't condone homosexuality based on Leviticus (of course, a woman not wearing a hat on Sabbath is also called "abominable" by the bible; doesn't mean much, does it?), then you CERTAINLY can't abide a divorced person, or any lawyer that does divorces, nor any judge that approves of a divorce.

Jesus Christ, but the churches will get empty fast!

Come on, those christian fantatics reading this. Speak on this hypocrisy as I've spelled it out. I don't think any of you are capable.

Chuckie "Convicted Criminal" Colson is exactly what's wrong with modern religion: a good and decent man, made into the "god" Jesus by idiots like Colson, was about as liberal a man as you could ask for.

Wow, I find the discourse here to be quite un-Christian to say the least. Whatever happened to judge not lest thee be judged? That aside, I find the quibling regarding the language and interpretation of the Bible quite boring and pedantic. Given that the Bible was written by human beings and also interpreted by human beings, I see it as being an attempt to give guidance and interpret the unexplainable aspects of the spiritual more than anything else. For those that may feel that such an view of the good book is simply allows cherry picking, well in a Christian vein, you are allowed your interpretation and it is not my place to judge.

Probably the wisest thing anyone ever told me in my years on this earth was related by my father. We were one night viewing the stars and aiming our telescope at various heavenly phenomena. During a pause he simply said to me, the Universe, to our knowledge is infinite. Man has but a finite brain and therefore a finite understanding of the Universe. No man, therefore, can understand the infinite. By extension, God, the infinite being, is not understandable by man.

If you believe that God is all powerful and all knowing and creator of the Universe, or even perhaps the Universe around us, then God is infinite. A human mind, certainly a finite instrument, can neither fully understand nor comprehend God and by extension, fully comprehend and understand Jesus, the son of God.

The Bible, an attempt by men to explain God and by extension the Son of God, is only a finite resource in the quest for understanding. I think it of perhaps the highest of human arrogance to argue that what is written in the Bible by human hands or even the hands of the disciples (who were also human, even if they were the chosen of Jesus) if you wish to argue that line, is the last and only word of God and the Son of God.

Has anyone thought that perhaps Jesus was attemting to at least set forth some small way for us to gain a smidgen of understanding of the vast and infinite spiritual plain of God? Perhaps God and Jesus intended us to evolve in mind, body, and understanding. Perhaps the entire endeavor on earth for Jesus was to form a basis for an evolving understanding of God, the Universe, our relationship with the Universe and God, and lastly our relationship with each other. Who is to say otherwise? Biblical literalists may say that the truth lies only in the words of the Bible, but I prefer to think otherwise. What a wonderful gift and opportunity it is to think, question, be open to thought, evolve and not be stuck only in the constructs of mere human and mortal words written so long ago. This in my opinion is God's and Jesus' great gift to us.

Food for thought.

Chuckie "Convicted Criminal" Colson is exactly what's wrong with modern religion: a good and decent man, made into the "god" Jesus by idiots like Colson, was about as liberal a man as you could ask for.

It's right wing zealots like Colson and the current criminal Bush administration who pretend that religion is some harsh, nasty thing when, in fact, the bible speaks of nothing but loving your neighbor, helping the unfortunate, and the love of real charity.

And who gives a CRAP what some idiot named Machen said a century ago?

Go report to your parole officer, Chuckie.

It is sad Charles "Chuck" Colson does not understand the centrality of the teachings of Jesus, and ignores God's unconditonal,non-judgemental love, which knows no boundaries and is for all people everywhere. Such message of love is at the very heart and core of the four gospels. In reading the Bible, some how Colson has not picked up that Jesus never had anything to say about homosexuality or gay and lesbian marriage. It was not a concern for him. Apparently, Jesus was quite comfortable with his own sexuality.

But he did have a lot to say about the problem of wealth and the abuse of power, especially in regard the domination systems of his day. Yet, many Christians and churches, like Colson, hardly ever address the problem of wealth and the abuse of power in our society today nor the domination systems which hold so much power over the lives of ordinary citizens here in America. Rather, like Colson, far too many Christians and churches spend their time and energy appealing to those folks who are not comfortable with their sexuality, including their homosexual tendencies.

Which biblical moral standards shall we follow?

That's rich: A lecture on morality from a Watergate thug.

That's rich: A lecture on morality from a Watergate thug.

I just watched Ari Fleischer on Hardball, he's working for something called Freedom's Watch. The host played a new ad that shows a legless soldier walk out of his house on prosthetic legs with a voice over saying we need to stay in Iraq and finish the job or they'll come and get us here. The ad ended with a shot of one of the planes smashing into the WTC. The interviewer (Mike Barnacle, I think) wanted to know the name of that soldier, but Ari Fleischer had no idea what the soldier's name was. I phoned Freedom's Watch to find out more. There was an Orwellian recorded message announcing that we must finish the war on terror in Iraq or etc etc etc Finally, a woman came on and asked me in a bored voice if I think failure in Iraq threatened my freedom (she was reading from a script) I asked her who was financing Freedom's Watch, but she wasn't at liberty to say. All in all it was a creepy and sinister experience.

Men like Charles Colson are equally sinister and creepy. They lie and manipulate and burn with righteous conviction, but they are lethally dangerous.

ROTFLMAO! Chuck, you are one magical thinker. There's medicine for that now.

ROTFLMAO! Chuck, you are one magical thinker. There's medicine for that now.

It's so nice to have criminals like Chuck Colson to tell the rest of us how to live and to help all churches adhere to his singular interpretation of what Christianity is.

Now I understand what Republicans mean by showing their Christian vaules. Satan is running the church. Colson was doing Satans work during the Nixon criminal wave and didn't give a second thought about God or the bible. It's was all about the money. These people are a joke each Republican that yells about God is a sinner just as Senator Vitter. Fingers Foley molested kids and Dennis Hastert set back and did nothing. Bush lies so much he can't keep up with what lie he told last. Cheney is as heatless as Satan. As for these guys being Judge they wont have the two appointed puppet Justices they will be judged by God and he already knows what they've done.

Now I understand what Republicans mean by showing their Christian vaules. Satan is running the church. Colson was doing Satans work during the Nixon criminal wave and didn't give a second thought about God or the bible. It's was all about the money. These people are a joke each Republican that yells about God is a sinner just as Senator Vitter. Fingers Foley molested kids and Dennis Hastert set back and did nothing. Bush lies so much he can't keep up with what lie he told last. Cheney is as heatless as Satan. As for these guys being Judge they wont have the two appointed puppet Justices they will be judged by God and he already knows what they've done.

I choose the morality of liberalism over the morality of the Christian Bible for personal assessment in our society and certainly not the literal truth of Abraham or the Old Testament. The time for stoning of sinners against the standards of the Old Testament has long passed.

This type of crap is fine for a rightwing blog, but not a respectable paper. Please!!!!

Mr. Colson is quite wrong, as he has been all his life. Christians embrace the homosexual worshiper,just as St. Paul, a Gay man himself, did.

Mr. Colson is quite wrong, as he has been all his life. Christians embrace the homosexual worshiper,just as St. Paul, a Gay man himself, did.

The Washington Post has fallen very low. I don't need a convicted criminal telling me what makes a good or bad religion.

Mr. Colson is quite wrong, as he has been all his life. Christians embrace the homosexual worshiper,just as St. Paul, a Gay man himself, did.

Jacob Jozevz,

"Moden Morality is Superior To Biblical Morality! Ya Ya!"

Yep, and that's why this modern world of ours is going down the tubes. Because anything goes in today's society. Everything is allright to do. Soon we won't even have any prisons because murder and rape will be ok too. Yep moral relativism.....what knucklehead thought that was a good idea....oh yeah.....a guy named Lucifer...Ya Ya!

We have not been following the Bible closely enough. Leviticus forbids men from laying with other men. But it doesn't stop there. Leviticus also forbids the consumtion of shellfish and touching of the skin of a dead pig. All you who enjoy shrimp and play football are doomed to rot in Hell.
"Christians" always seem to want to pick and choose the parts of the Bible they follow.

Isn't it interesting that Charles Colson, a felon convicted of crimes which endangered the very fabric of our democracy, is up in arms about sex?

He says the fundamentals of christianity are threatened by two people in a committed & loving relationship.

Yet, as a defender of the faith...

He's never spoken out against the widespread graft among politicians today. Apparently, christianity can tolerate that especially among his fellow right-wing Republicans).

He's never spoken out against out against the greed and dishonesty which have tarnished corporate America over the past few years. Apparently, his brand of christians find that perfectly tolerable.

He's never spoken out against a war of aggression in Iraq. Apparently, he feels Jesus Christ would think Guantanamo & Abu Graib and all the rest are just peachy.

Charles Colson has become about as credible a representative of Jesus Christ as Rush Limbaugh is of equal rights for minorities.

Bishop John Shelby Spong had it exactly right when he said, "You cannot be homophobic and a follower of Jesus' teachings. It is either one or the other."

Bishop Johh Shelby Spong had it exactly right when he said, "You cannot be homophobic and a follower of Jesus' teachings. It is either one or the other."

Thank you Chuck for your willingness to speak out on issues that are difficult. The tidal wave of moral change is overwhelming, with pressure toward moral relativism as our national mantra at its core.

In reading these comments, almost all of which disagree with Chuck, and many of them scathing, it is interesting to note, however, that the vote was 55% to 45%.

The discussion in the ELCA is not over, and like other denominations, they will sadly continue in their membership decline. But now it will just happen more quickly, as churches split and members leave. Query, how many of those writing comments opposing Chuck's view, and defending this new policy are going to be joining and attending and supporting the churches that embrace this new ELCA policy the Post readership endorses ... I have a hunch most will instead be reading the Post at Starbucks 'religiously' on Sunday mornings....

As though conservatives do not wear wool and cotton together.

As though conservatives maintain kosher rules.

As though conservatives require payment of fines for those who cause a woman to miscarry (note: the only discussion of abortion in the Bible).

As the the NIV is not a translation with the stated attempt to support American social conservative views.

The Word of God grows over time, because our understanding of it grows.

Your God is dead.

Our God is alive and well, thank you, and quite happy to have as many members in the family as possible.

Mr. Colson claims that the ELCA is ignoring biblical standards of moral behavior; his claim makes the assumption that the Bible outlines very clear and precise standards that any reader can identify without confusion or discrepancies. He further implies that the leadership of the ELCA has not carefully considered these "obvious" standards of moral behavior prescribed by the Bible.
Mr. Colson's owes his readers a much more precise and clear reference to the obvious and unambiguous text that proves his point. I suspect he did not supply precise texts, because he understands that any careful reader can supply other Biblical texts to fully support the position the ELCA took. This is shoddy Bible scholarship, and by printing this article, the Post is guilty of shoddy journalism.

Several posters have described the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (LCMS)as bigoted. This is not the LCMS that I know and have been a member all my life. The church that I know welcomes people of every nationality and race. We are conservative theologically, believing that the Bible is the inspired word of God. We believe that all human beings are sinners and were born that way. We believe that Jesus Christ is not just a wonderful moral teacher, but the Son of God who through his suffering, death and resurrection provides us the way to salvation if only we believe and have faith in Him. As Martin Luther pointed out, we hold three principles as inviolate: Faith Alone, Grace Alone, Scripture Alone.
You may find these ideas quaint or outright ridiculous, but this is what I believe by faith and this is what is taught in the LCMS.

At one time, ELCA and LCMS were not that far apart in doctrine or practice. However in the last 25 years, ELCA has continued to drift away from its traditional Biblical basis on a tide of social relevancy and moral relativism which has become the mark of Progressive Protestantism in America.
Like C. S. Lewis, I would not say that these denominations are not Christian, but are very poor Christians.

The standards of sexual conduct,it is hard to call it morality, that are generally accepted in our society are diametrically opposed that the standards that are taught in the Bible. The Bible teaches that sexual intercourse is only acceptable within marriage and that marriage is a divinely sanctioned union of one man and one woman. Now many of you will find this hilarious. Many, many people throughout recorded history have failed to follow God's law on this one, but there it is. Homosexual and heterosexual sex outside of marriage is a sin. God forgives our sin if we repent, even Mr. Colson's sin. But if we continue to live in our sin and are unrepentant we are testing God's patience and making a mockery of Him.

Love the sinner (that's all of us), hate the sin.

Moreover...I'm tired of prople equating Christianity with Morality. The comparison is INSANE! Religion has never been about anything but control, supression, exclusion and wealth. It's 2007 and the masses are waking up. The boat is sinking and the free ride for all the "clerics" is over. I can line up people frome one end of this city to the other who are moral, decent, upstanding citizens that don't give a damn about people like this schiester and see him and his kind for what they really are...
too lazy and insecure to get a real job. Piranas...all of them.

Didn't the Bible say something about NOT secretly
planning a coup to overthrow the US government?
NO? OK Chuck, you get into heaven.

Moreover...I'm tired of prople equating Christianity with Morality. The comparison is INSANE! Religion has never been about anything but control, supression, exclusion and wealth. It's 2007 and the masses are waking up. The boat is sinking and the free ride for all the "clerics" is over. I can line up people frome one end of this city to the other who are moral, decent, upstanding citizens that don't give a damn about people like this schiester and see him and his kind for what they really are...
too lazy and insecure to get a real job. Piranas...all of them.

Why is a convicted felon being presented as a viable authority on moral behavior? Since when is morality only linked to religion? More immoral acts have been committed by people for religious reasons than liberal ones by far!

Yes, Paul, the favorite of those, including Mr. Colson, receiving a personal calling from the Lord. That Paul spent most of his life persecuting the Brothers fits perfectly in the redemption story of Colson and his flock. Spend a lfetime making other people miserable. Then spend a few years in redemption and condemnation of those you previously made miserable and everlasting life is yours. How nice.

Yes, Paul, the favorite of those, including Mr. Colson, receiving a personal calling from the Lord. That Paul spent most of his life persecuting the Brothers fits perfectly in the redemption story of Colson and his flock. Spend a lfetime making other people miserable. Then spend a few years in redemption and condemnation of those you previously made miserable and everlasting life is yours. How nice.

I'm sorry that Chuck Colson hasn't discovered grace over the years. Like so many others, Colson finds comfort in fervently hugging the trunk of the tree of laws and judgment, while forgetting that the shade of the forest of love is there to protect him.

I'm sorry to hear that Chuck Colson hasn't become any more grace-filled over the years. God is love, and the gospel is about grace. Unfortunately, so many hide behind the "trees" of the Bible, and miss the forest altogether.

JUST ONCE I WOULD LIKE SOMEONE LIKE CHUCK COLSON SAY TO ALL THE CHRISTIANS WHO ARE BIBLE BELIEVERS AND WHO SUPPORT WAR THAT THEY ARE, TO USE COLSON'S WORDS "Who wants to belong to a church that doesn't treat biblical teachings as truth?" THE BIBLICAL TRUTH IS TO TURN THE OTHER CHEEK AND LOVE OUR ENEMIES. JUST ONCE!

Dear Chuck,
Slavery was moral by biblical standards ... so I hope you are rejecting biblical standards every friggin day of your life ... You have a brain. Use it.

It is ironic that Mr. Colson will follow one narrow interpretation of a moral truth yet fail to follow others. Regardless of his beliefs, does Christ tell us to go and chastise those who are different? Absolutely not. Instead, Christ tells us to open our hearts to all. Mr. Colson's point of view only hastens to push people away from the true Church of Christ because instead of embracing each and every individual as a child of God, he would rather push out those that do not represent his view of Christianity.

It is sad in today's world that so many "preach" the Bible selectively but fail to live as Disciples of Christ. They quickly judge and condemn the actions of others instead of opening their hearts to all and embracing humanity. We are told to Love out Neighbors as ourselves. We are also told to love out enemies. So then, is it right that we should not love everyone?

While the author's opinion is that this decision dishonors the Lord and the Church, in my opinion he is wrong. It is not a matter of being mainstream. It is a matter of compassion. Instead of focusing on homosexuality, why does he not look at some of the world policies that lead to hunger, war, and social injustice? Are these not the grave issues facing the Church?

Your "On Faith" blurb is irritating to me. The Lutheran faith does not take the bible literally and therefore the biblical standards of moral behavior would probably not be taken literally. For you to claim that someone who is Lutheran has not kept the faith, has not been believing in a brand of christianity, and is dishonorable all in a few sentences is beyond impolite. If you want to put this out into the general public with those kinds of accusations you better start putting up some reasons or some life story to back it up. If all you wanted was an increased readership congratulations! It is hard enough to be a Lutheran in this area without reading about how the church I grew up in is a fraud. If you want to attack someone politically keep it political. If you want to attack my faith then don't mess around and say exactly what is on your mind. You are irritating to sensationalize a story on religion.

"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We'll be landing in the United Sates of America in a short while. Please set your clocks back two hundred years."

JUST ONCE I WOULD LIKE SOMEONE LIKE CHUCK COLSON SAY TO ALL THE CHRISTIANS WHO ARE BIBLE BELIEVERS AND WHO SUPPORT WAS THAT THEY ARE, TO USE COLSON'S WORDS "Who wants to belong to a church that doesn't treat biblical teachings as truth?" THE BIBLICAL TRUTH IS TO TURN THE OTHER CHEEK AND LOVE OUR ENEMIES. JUST ONCE!

If you aren't a member of ECLA, you have no reason to complain. ECLA clergy aren't in WaPO criticizing Colson's religion.

What's even more distressing is Chuck Colson waxing piously about anything.

You are still a liar, Chuck, no matter how you try to spin it.

Three cheers for the Lutherans, humanity's hope for a brighter future! People like Colson are completely disgusting. No wonder they don't believe in evolution, the idea of progress is totally repulsive to them.

stephenrhymer:

You said, "christianity is not just for conservatives, it's for liberals too. the nice thing about liberal Christians is that we spend a lot more time doing God's work and a lot less time telling everyone else why they're not real Christians."

Well said, thank you. It is a continuing amazement to me how the conservatives spend their time obsessed with the negatives of the Old Testament, not to mention the fire and brimstone of Revelations, and seem to forget the Gospels and our Lord's true message of love.

There is a bumper sticker that I have to get:
JESUS IS A LIBERAL

Great coments from Michael. I suggest Mr. Colson, Fred Phelps, Lou Sheldon, Tony Perkins, and unfortunately the list goes on and on, read the very easy-to-read book "What the Bible Really Says about Homosexuality" by Fr. Daniel Helminiak, Ph.D. (the guy actually has two Ph.D's, one in Bible and one in ed psych) Basically, he demolishes ANY Biblical argument the vast right-wing conspiracy can pull out of their a$$e$ on this topic. Fortunately, many who have posted here recognize something very simple and basic: Jesus had not one word to say on this topic.

"Would I sacrifice my life for something I didn't believe to be true? Of course not. But martyrs from the first century on have."

Can someone please explain the meaning of this astoundingly ungrammtical paragraph? Does it mean that martyrs from the first century on have sacrificed their lives for stuff they did not believe to be true? Or that these blessed martyrs - like the Islamicist martyrs of 9/11 - sacrificed themselves for what they *knew* to be true? Which is it, pray tell?

I don't think it is right how many of you are disparaging Mr. Colson's character for his opinion. How many of you have humbly tried to decide what God wishes for your life, or from us as human beings? Not many, I would imagine.

Homosexuality will probably prove to be one of the great "threshings" that will separate the church into those that try to honestly follow His Word, and those that try to see Him through their own pride-covered lenses.

There is a ton of pride on this page, that is for sure.

Mr Colson is correct though. If you want to elevate homosexuality to the level of "normal" moral behaviour, then you have to ignore parts of the Bible, plain and simple. So the issue isn't really with Colson, it is with the Bible. Why don't all of you direct your vitriol there instead? Or better yet, just get your own bible, and write in whatever you want.

Just wanted to say that I am also an ELCA member, and am appalled by the church's descent into apostasy. Romans 1:18-31 couldn't be more prescient.

MR. G

I'd like to remind the writer that 'biblical moral standards' include the stoning of rebellious and drunkard sons (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), the marrage of a rapist to his victim (if she is unbetrothed) (Deuteronomy 22:28-29).

I don't think your approach to the Bible
honors it, it dishonors it by not allowing it
to be a living, evolving set of teachings,
which change with time.
Chuck, when did you last sacrifice a goat?

wow, almost 100% disagree with Chuck Colson here..

who woulda thunk it? on the Post's website?? Naw!!!

How predictable

Right on Chuck! The Sodomites are blind to their sin. But the rest of us are not. another denomination down the drain. New ones will rise up to take their place.

Dear Chuck - Take another look at that 'WWJD" bracelet and review the basics of your religion before you turn your back on people who are as God made them - not as they choose. You neither have to accept nor condone - merely extend a hand of fellowship - or is that another Christian value you choose to parse out? Self righteous hypocrisy does not serve God's plan. You used to belong to another religion and it's god was Richard Nixon. As I recall that cabal tolerated no dissenting views either. Time to grow up, free the shackles of your mind from hate and hypocrisy and let God deal as he sees fit. You still have far to go. Your job is to be a good Christian. Start by loving all and excluding no one.

Chuck,

you are as off balance in your thought
as you were when you went into prison, if not
more so. You're just now in a different
prison!

Steven Fushin Brown

Only Charles Colson could twist a theological disagreement into an "us against them", liberal versus "the right way to believe".

What constitutes "liberal" Christianity?

If "liberal" means a belief that my Christian faith means that I help feed the poor, clothe the naked, heal the sick and help those who can't help themselves, then count me as a liberal Christian.

If Colson is subscribing to the notion that to be a Christian one must be politically conservative and a member of the evangelical right, then shame on him.

What Colson and his ilk do is browbeat people into believing that one can only be a real Christian if they follow the theological tenants of his particlar belief system.

christianity is not just for conservatives, it's for liberals too. the nice thing about liberal Christians is that we spend a lot more time doing God's work and a lot less time telling everyone else why they're not real Christians.

Chuck, Have you even read the Bible? Jesus himself has rejected what you might call some conservative teachings in the Bible. I guess that would make Jesus a Liberal?

I certainly respect Mr. Colson's right to his views and also his work in the prison ministries. However, as a Christian minister I strongly disagree on both the substance of his criticism of the ELCA and on the principle by which he interprets biblical inerrancy.

I criticize the ELCA for moving too slowly toward full inclusion of LGBT people in the ministry, not for their very tepid move recently in the direction of "non-exclusion." As Jesus said, "Because you are neither hot nor cold, I spit you out of my mouth."

Like many of the posters above, I agree that the commandments of love supercede the Hebrew Bible's purity codes and Paul's rantings on what kind of sexuality is acceptable. However, on the larger principle of Biblical inerrancy, I will cede that the Bible may in fact be the inerrant, unchanging word of God. However, the Bible is nothing without readers, and even though the words may not change (though they have through millenia of translation, transcription and interpretation errors) those who read the Bible DO change. Even if the Bible is the inerrant word of God, what makes Mr. Colson so sure he is reading it correctly? History has shown that the readers are certainly "errant" most of the time.

You declare that actions of the ELCA is destressing to the faithful who have followed moral standards (as set by the bible)for two millenia. You toss out the wore liberalism as a dirty thing, which is the norm for most conservatives. (Indeed, the Catholic church certainly thought Martin Luther was a "liberal," not to mention that liberal Galileo.)

God's most important and cherished request is to love thy neighbor. Exactly, how is the ECLA violating God's greatest desire for us?

On the otherhand, your attack on the ECLA and name-calling certainly does not fall within an act of love (not even tough love) but does fall well within the realm of being judgmental.

NOTE: I am not a member of the ECLA; however, since when do YOU know the exact rules of the game (i.e. that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is the only correct one)? Each of us must interpret the Bible as best we can. In the end, do we love each other, do we respect each other? For now, I'll choose the ECLA's actions over your condemnation any day.

Chuck,

you are as off balance in your thought
as you were when you went into prison, if not
more so. You're just now in a different
prison!

Steven Fushin Brown

Maybe the Lutherans just need to be sent to prison for treason. Then they can find Jesus right before sentencing too. You are a joke.

Hey WP webmaster--maybe you could indicate that our messages are received, dumb *@!k?

You declare that actions of the ELCA is destressing to the faithful who have followed moral standards (as set by the bible)for two millenia. You toss out the work liberalism as a dirty word, which is the norm for most conservatives.

God's most important and cherished request is to love thy neighbor. Exactly, how is the ECLA violating God's greatest desire?

On the otherhand, your attack on the ECLA and name-calling certainly does not fall within an act of love (not even tough love) but does fall within the realm of being judgmental.

NOTE: I am not a member of the ECLA; however, since when do YOU know the exact rules of the game (i.e. that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is correct) the best. Each must interpret the Bible as best they can. In the end, do we love each other, do we respect each other. For now, I'll choose the ECLA's actions over your condemnation.

You declare that actions of the ELCA is destressing to the faithful who have followed moral standards (as set by the bible)for two millenia. You toss out the work liberalism as a dirty word, which is the norm for most conservatives.

God's most important and cherished request is to love thy neighbor. Exactly, how is the ECLA violating God's greatest desire?

On the otherhand, your attack on the ECLA and name-calling certainly does not fall within an act of love (not even tough love) but does fall within the realm of being judgmental.

NOTE: I am not a member of the ECLA; however, since when do YOU know the exact rules of the game (i.e. that YOUR interpretation of the Bible is correct) the best. Each must interpret the Bible as best they can. In the end, do we love each other, do we respect each other. For now, I'll choose the ECLA's actions over your condemnation.

The existence of the idiotic "On Faith," and that the felon Colson is a panelist on it, demonstrate how far Reich the Washington Post has become, and how tenacious the mainstream media is in trying to shove Judeo-Christianity down our collective throats.

The existence of the idiotic "On Faith," and that the felon Colson is a panelist on it, demonstrate how far Reich the Washington Post has become, and how tenacious the mainstream media is in trying to shove Judeo-Christianity down our collective throats.

The existence of the idiotic "On Faith," and that the felon Colson is a panelist on it, demonstrate how far Reich the Washington Post has become, and how tenacious the mainstream media is in trying to shove Judeo-Christianity down our collective throats.

The existence of the idiotic "On Faith," and that the felon Colson is a panelist on it, demonstrate how far Reich the Washington Post has become, and how tenacious the mainstream media is in trying to shove Judeo-Christianity down our collective throats.

Chuck,

let the one without sin cast the first stone.

I guess that leaves you out of the line.

As Bishop Spong has said so eloquently and precisely: "You cannot be homophobic and a follower of Jesus's teachings. It's either one or the other."

As Bishop Spong has said so eloquently and precisely: "You cannot be homophobic and a follower of Jesus's teachings. It's either one or the other."

As Bishop Spong has said so eloquently and precisely: "You cannot be homophobic and a follower of Jesus's teachings. It's either one or the other."

As Bishop Spong has said so eloquently and precisely: "You cannot be homophobic and a follower of Jesus's teachings. It's either one or the other."

As Bishop Spong has said so eloquently and precisely: "You cannot be homophobic and a follower of Jesus's teachings. It's either one or the other."

As all good fundamentalists know, the essence of sin is temptation. To those who most loudly denounce homosexuality (e.g. Rev. Haggard, Congressman Foley, Rev. Baker, Rev. Colson, etc. ad infinitum): C'mon, admit it, you know it's a sin because you suffer from the temptation every day.

Hypocrites.

Tommy:
"The apostate Lutherans are not the only ersatz Christians or Jews who have opted for a standard that man, not God, is the measure of all things."

Paul Boudreaux:

"Man, not God, Wrote the Bible and passed along its traditions. We as humans are by definition flawed and imperfect, and yet you would have us base the most important relationship in our lives, that of faith, on a book that was written in Hebrew and Greek over 1500 years ago, translated into latin thereafter, passed along from illiterate society to illiterate society (with the most common literacy excercise being to write the bible... from memory) until it has made its way into a period of time in which its standards are, through the simple course of history, almost comically inapplicable, especially as they were designed for a completely different society. As I said before, if we must use religious law as a basis for behaviour, the Ten Commandments serve as a universal set of basic principles which we can obviously point to as divine (if that is your particualr belief). Far better to look at Christ's teachings philosophically and apply them to our lives, not try to rule our lives according to 1st-5th century moral standards written by men who never met Christ."

I understand your secular humanist rationale for rejecting the Bible together with the erstwhile apostate Lutherans, Episcopalians, various Progressive Protestants, Liberationist Catholics, and Reform Jews (among others). I don't buy into that rationale myself, but I do understand (as does Colson) that many just do not have faith that God conferred the Decalogue on Moses personally, and turned Lot's wife into a pillar of salt for looking back nostalgically at Sodom.

And I commend you for confessing forthrightly, more frankly and honestly than any of these assorted ersatz Christians and Jews, who seem bent on harnessing the resources and institutions of religion to advance the Gay Agenda and to elevate an agenda of Social Justice, mostly based on the texts of Marx, Engels, and Lenin, above personal salvation.

Liberal Christianity is not liberalism. Liberal and Christianity are not irreconcilable. This article is so short it says nothing. There is an unfounded barb thrown out, and no explanation is given. There is no information or argument presented. The reader knows nothing more than that the author has a bone to pick. Religion is not the purview of the author, nor does he reputably serve as the Christianity cop.

Jesus felt so strongly about gays that he did not utter one word on the topic.

Good point Mr. Colson. The National Council of Churches is a virulently bigoted organization that supports blowing up jewish children while they are on in school or eating a pizza parlor. They should be shunned and anyone contributing money to them should be treated the same way as if they gave money to al Qaeda or Hamas.

I take offense to you use of the moniker "Nemo" Ego. And funny you admonish "Christians" when Islam would lop the heads off homosexuals. Defend yours before you condemn Christianity. And for the others I find it laughable that the world calls it real love to say its ok to call immorality moral. What a topsy turvy world we live in. Of course the Book you deny predicted our age. Read the Timothy's.

Sad as it is to have to say it: I think I preferred the old, Nixon-era
Coulson. It's really pathetic.

As a gay man and a christian, I certainly find these comments to be interesting!

However, what will REALLY be interesting is the next few years, as increasing numbers of well-regarded, peer-reviewed studies indicate that homosexuality has, at least in part, a biological basis.

After all, a lynchpin of the anti-gay argument is that we gay people are free to "choose." But what happens if that argument gets undercut? Then the whole house of cards begins to fall.

Of course, it doesn't really matter. Even if being gay WERE a choice, ask yourself: why should that matter? Would it really be that threatening if some members of the society were attracted to members of the same gender? How precisely does that harm anyone?

Live and let live, folks. Life is challenging enough!

What a crock of sh**. The sooner society rids itself of religion in all forms, the better off we all will be.

Castulo...

Good point there. God sure seems to be obtuse. One, just one, cure of an amputee would sure have me in the pews. None out there? Pity. The before and after pics would circulate world wide and there would be nothing but talk of the miracle in the media.

How about sending a message, as described on the last page of "Contact" by Carl Sagan?

Chuck has been very consistent in his narrow view of right/wrong and other religions. So much to learn and so little time. Get with it Chuckster.

Wow! Lessons on ethical behavior from the Watergate crowd! This is just another rant from the flat-earth religious crazies who will have it their way or no way. Unlike Jim Bakker who learned some humility and compassion while in prison, Chuck you take the cake for your hardness-of-heart. While you are so comfortably in framing ethical arguments from your particular biblical perspective, I'd ask what part of "love one another" don’t you get?

Wow! Lessons on ethical behavior from the Watergate crowd! This is just another rant from the flat-earth religious crazies who will have it their way or no way. Unlike Jim Bakker who learned some humility and compassion while in prison, Chuck you take the cake for your hardness-of-heart. While you are so comfortably in framing ethical arguments from your particular biblical perspective, I'd ask what part of "love one another" don’t you get?

Fundman:

I don't think you've been around here for long. There have been plenty of fundies, and the bashing of Muslims is several orders of magnitude worse than anything said about Christians. There is also a lot of atheist bashing, gay bashing Pagan bashing, Wicca bashing, and everything else. Each unique question brings out its own set of weirdness. BTW, I am an atheist.

Wow! Lessons on ethical behavior from the Watergate crowd! This is just another rant from the flat-earth religious crazies who will have it their way or no way. Unlike Jim Bakker who learned some humility and compassion while in prison, Chuck you take the cake for your hardness-of-heart. While you are so comfortably in framing ethical arguments from your particular biblical perspective, I'd ask what part of "love one another" don’t you get?

Lep,

Gotta differ with you here. You said: "Why is it that so much of Christianity is based, not on the teachings of the man it's named after, but on the ravings of a sexually repressed, misogynist Pharisee who heard voices?"

My reply:

Your first part of the statement is, alas!, correct. Jesus gets only lip service by too many. But as to the second, well, the misdirection of so many 'Christians' is really to the negatives of the old testament, totally ignoring the incredibly positive message of our Lord, as told in the Gospels.

As to that Dude who saw the light on the road to Damascus: Paul was a touch weird, to be sure. I disagree with some of his statements, particularly about women. Amazing how the fundamentalists tap dance around that one trying to explain women singing in their churches! But he was instrumental in bringing Christianity to everybody, not just the Jews. And before you condemn him so totally, go read I Corinthians 13.

Wow! Lessons on ethical behavior from the Watergate crowd! This is just another rant from the flat-earth religious crazies who will have it their way or no way. Unlike Jim Bakker who learned some humility and compassion while in prison, Chuck you take the cake for your hardness-of-heart. While you are so comfortably in framing ethical arguments from your particular biblical perspective, I'd ask what part of "love one another" don’t you get?

Wow! Lessons on ethical behavior from the Watergate crowd! This is just another rant from the flat-earth religious crazies who will have it their way or no way. Unlike Jim Bakker who learned some humility and compassion while in prison, Chuck you take the cake for your hardness-of-heart. While you are so comfortably in framing ethical arguments from your particular biblical perspective, I'd ask what part of "love one another" don’t you get?

The Lutherans didn't roundly condemn Diaper Davey Vitter (R-Canal Street Brothel)? Is that what Colson's on about?

Sorry, I don't follow Christianist controversies too closely. Or at all.

Wow! Lessons on ethical behavior from the Watergate crowd! This is just another rant from the flat-earth religious crazies who will have it their way or no way. Unlike Jim Bakker who learned some humility and compassion while in prison, Chuck you take the cake for your hardness-of-heart. While you are so comfortably in framing ethical arguments from your particular biblical perspective, I'd ask what part of "love one another" don’t you get?

Ross Taylor @ 4:55

"Mark is commonly dated at about 60 a.d., 30 years after Jesus's death; Matthew and Luke are dated within 10-15 years later. John's date is debated; it is commonly believed to have been written around 80-90 A.D. (or C.E., if you prefer)."

Those estimates are in line with most scholarship. However, we do not have the original texts of any of the Gospels. The earliest copies we have date from the 4th century - after the Council of Nicea. These are only copies, and it is impossible to tell whether or not any editing took place.

Of course, we could ask the Profit Colson.

Colson's comments here reflect the hypocrisy and intolerance that has so many people fleeing evangelical Christianity.

Not only are we supposed to take his word for it that his interpretation is God's will, but those who disagree with him are not even Christians! No wonder so many Evangelicals, just like so many Islamic Mullahs and former Nixon campaign hacks, have so much trouble with pluralistic societies and multiparty democracy.

And the hypocrisy. Evangelicals interpret the Bible just like anyone else, choosing which passes to take literally and which ones to treat as anachronistic, poetical or simply unimportant.

Passages that appear to condemn homosexuality and masturbation, and instruct women to be submissive to their husbands, are to be taken literally, as if dictated by God to ancient stenographers. But red-letter passages (purportedly Jesus' own words!) that suggest the rich have trouble getting into heaven are intepreted very, ah, liberally to mean you can make God happy with a tithe to your local suburban megachurch or, perhaps, to the Republican Party.

No wonder Colson is so hard on Lutherans. He seems to want to overturn the whole Reformation idea that Christian laity may read and interpret the Bible for themselves.

Why are all the Progressive Protestants, Liberationist Catholics, and Reform Jews offended that the Bible establishes God as the measure of all things, and why are they determined to make man the measure of all things?

Isn't it because these godless religionists want to substitute Erasmus, the father of secular humanism, for Christ or Jehovah, and call it Christianity or Judaism?

None of Colson's critics will deny it!

RE: Distressing but not Surprising. How about being more specific on what "standards of moral behavior" are being ignored. Your "deeply distressing" comment reminds me of Chicken Little who claimed "the sky is falling" without offering any facts to back it up.

Chuck, when we're both up in heaven, I promise to tiptoe by your door so as to maintain your illusion that you're the only one up there.

You're kidding right? Biblical standards of moral behavior? Like genocide? Infanticide? Stoning to death? Killing homosexuals? Killing adulterers? Animal sacrifice? Slavery?

Have you read your OT lately Chuck?

And stoning for pre-marital sex? (cf. Lev. 22.20).

Okay, again we have someone saying that his interpretation of the Bible IS the Bible.

It gets kinda old.

Karen

Once again, Mr. Colson manages to put the ugliest possible face on his brand of Christianity.

Re: "Christ's teachings to the Apostles and His disciples during his lifetime were passed along word by word of mouth over the centuries before the first written versions of the book we call the bible came out. Even the Church has acknowledged that the versions which came out were probably heavily edited by early Roman popes to fit in with the transition from paganism to Christianity as the State religion of the empire."

This is incorrect. While much of the Old Testament was indeed created this way, the four Gospels, or accounts of Jesus's life, were written during the first century. Mark is commonly dated at about 60 a.d., 30 years after Jesus's death; Matthew and Luke are dated within 10-15 years later. John's date is debated; it is commonly believed to have been written around 80-90 A.D. (or C.E., if you prefer).

Further, Matthew and Luke both drew on an earlier collection of Jesus's sayings, commonly referred to as the Q source, which predated their composition.

So while there was a period where Jesus's teachings and life were communicated orally, they were put in writing within a few decades after his death.

Further, there is little creditable scholarship arguing that the early popes edited the gospels; in fact, there is much debate as to when the bishop at Rome was first recognized to be the head of the church.

Once again, Mr. Colson manages to put the ugliest possible face on his brand of Christianity.

Why doesn't the ELCA propose a merger with the Unitarian Universalist Church with the changes it has made over the past 25 years? They have reached the point where they treat the Bible as a piece of literature and everything is relative and subject to personal decision. Martin Luther would turn over in his grave!

Those who place their faith in the bible without truly considering what it represents have faith in very little.

The ELCA, as some other denominations, takes into consideration the basic concept that in order to understand what scripture communicates to us, we must also understand how it came to be composed, and how it has been carried through history.

Ultimately, the bible represents words written by men about God. Many of the books of the bible were not written by those described in their pages. For example, Luke was not a disciple, and so could not have had first-hand knowledge of the events of the life of Jesus.

It is possible to believe in the basic story and message of the bible without taking every word as divine truth. It is also possible to believe that the men who wrote these books were themselves fallible-- even those touched by divinity. Paul, while touched by divinity, never claimed to be a perfect instrument of God. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John-- all also men, and by very root of the tenants of Christianity, all also fallible.

Beyond that, we can consider that the books of the Bible are not the sum total of all texts written by men about God; that the specific books of the bible were chosen and collected into a single work by men themselves, most notably the Catholic Church.

One can read an account of history and still believe that the historian whose work we are reading was not perfect, and that his accounting of the event contains some sort of bias. This is also the same with recent events-- we can believe a story we read in the newspaper, and still believe that the author of that article has missed some essential element.

The belief that the Bible must be followed to the letter, that it is somehow a perfect rendering of the will of God-- that is a conclusion that takes theological gymnastics to come to, involving a great many contortions of logic and common sense. It's not even internally consistent.

Let us not forget that Jesus also calls us to follow him-- and that if the accounting of the Bible is to be believed, then he was a man who was run out of his home town on a rail for his own interpretation of scripture. If we are to follow in his example, should we not also question scripture, perhaps even risk being run out of our home towns on a rail for doing so?

Those who believe in unquestioning devotion to every last word of the bible, and who would seek to use such devotion as a tool to attack others (in this case, gays and lesbians) allow this devotion to blind them to the basic tenants of the Christian faith.

Mr. Colson's objections are fascinating in light of the fact that he entrusted the direciton of the film version of his memoir "Born Again" to one Irving Rapper -- a well-known homosexual whose vast array of credits include "Now Voyager" and "The Christine Jorgensen Story."

Charles,

Please don't tell me "what you believe" because it doesn't make any difference. I don't care!

Instead, show me how what you believe influences your day to day actions.

What would Jesus do, really?

according the most translations... that the first commandment is to love God, with all your heart and mind, etc.; and the second is to love your neighbor as yourself....

That is the Christian Standard. Whether it is the "Biblical" standard, is what this debate is about, I suppose.

Who is my neighbor? er, um, 'the one who showed him mercy (not the priest, pharisee, or observant jew) Where is Mr. Coulson's mercy?

P.S. I forgot to ask Tim here if he heard the one I did, that standing in a church makes you a Christian as much as standing in your garage makes you a car. I think Elaine Lehmann in Chapter August 22 Verse 3:10 of this book we have written here said it best, that Jesus taught but one commandment, to "LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF." We all know very well how we like to be treated. It is so very simple a principal yet so hard to live by as we are distracted with selfishness. We must at least TRY. I think that is all Jesus ever asked of us knowing we are human. Thanks for listening. As far as the Washington Post printing this in the first place, I do believe they are doing their job in letting us know what is being said out there. How else would we have been sparked to have this conversation...

Whenever I see a picture of Charles W. "Chuck" Colson I get sick to my stomach.

Smokin' post, Hccapps. :)

This is why the mainline churches are losing membership and the evangelicals are growing. If you don't believe in what the bible says you lose you moral footing as to what is right and wrong and have to rely on what every one else says is right and wrong and the moral footing of the mob is rather fickle. Hitler was freely elected to the Reichstad by the majority of germans.

What a wonderful thing for Chuck Colson. He has discovered that God shares his bigotry, intolerance and homophobia.

First, I always get a chuckle when Mr. Colson wants to condemn someone else's moral behavior. Second, the Lutheran church is following Christ's teachings, far more closely than Mr. Colson's theology. Finally, Jesus talked far more about peace-making than he did about homosexuality. George W. Bush and the Republican Christians who advocate pre-emptive war in Iraq are doing much more to dishonor Christ and his teachings than the ELCA.

God could end this discussion now by simply saying what He wants. His continuing silence on all earthy matters suggests, well, what? Indolence? Apathy? Absence? Take your pick.

When I saw the headline, "Lost Lutherans," and saw that it was for something Charles Colson wrote, I thought, "I can guess what this is about...."

"The decision by the ELCA to ignore biblical standards of moral behavior is, given the history of modern mainline Christianity, not surprising, but it is deeply distressing."

Sorry, Mr. Colson, but since you omit stating exactly what your definition of these 'standards of moral behavior' are, forgive me if I make the intellectual leap to the conclusion that, in your opinion, they distress you more for political reasons than any sense of moral outrage.

"Who wants to belong to a church that doesn't treat biblical teachings as truth? Would I sacrifice my life for something I didn't believe to be true? Of course not. But martyrs from the first century on have."

I am a Lutheran, a member of an ELCA congregation, and I am am very, very offended by this remark. Indeed, I am deeply insulted by this unworthy attack on the wonderful men and women of The Church who do indeed preach "biblical teachings as truth" each Sunday from the pulpit and then set the example of those teachings seven days a week. Contrary to what Mr. Colson would have you think, Lutherans do care deeply about the Bible and the teachings of Christ. We Lutherans embrace the teachings of Christ, the focal point being the acceptance of God's Grace.

"This kind of decision dishonors our Lord, dishonors the Church, and dishonors those who have kept the faith for two millennia."

Sad to see that Mr. Colson is condemning the acceptance of any of God's Children as being seen as an act which "dishonors our Lord." I seem to recall being taught that Jesus loved those others in His time did not love, regardless of their sins or any other failings. Isn't God's love unconditional? it seems that Mr. Colson is the one who "dishonors our Lord" by making love and acceptance very much conditional -- being a factor of worldly and political whims rather than doing as we are asked to do by Our Lord.

"This is why Jay Gresham Machen said, almost a century ago, that liberal Christianity is not a brand of Christianity: it is simply another religion altogether -- liberalism."

Which brings us to the real point of Mr. Colson venting his spleen and being spiteful towards Lutherans and the ELCA: Anyone in disagreement with his views is automatically a "liberal" -- a word bantered about in a perjorative sense and used as an explative. If indeed God loves all of his children and accepts them for all their faiings, foibles, sins, and diverse political and social views, then it seem to me that the true enemy of The Church are the conversatives who narrowly perceive both the world and Christ through the lens of political ideologies rather than the lens of Faith.

Sorry, Mr. Colson, but if your statement is representative of your brand of what is being peddled as as Christianity, well, I am proud to be both an ELCA Lutheran and a Liberal. Whatever I might have felt about same-sex relations has been greatly tempered by people such as Mr. Colson and the realization that the Grace of Jesus is not restricted to only those who see things my way -- unlike Mr. Colson who uses religion as a political instrument.

Former Lutheran,

I think we grew up in the same MS church, because everything you said sounds all too familiar! Women are not allowed to vote in church elections in my family's church. When my immediate family moved, we joined an ELCA church, and the hate-mail rolled in!

Biblical morality? (1) You can stone people to death for adultery. (2) You can stone children to death for cursing their parents. (3) You can kill witches. (4) You can kill people who blaspheme the faith. (5) You can cut the private parts off of vanquished armies for use as dowries (David and the Phllistines). (6) God sends she bears out of the woods to tear apart 42 children for making fun of a bald-headed man. (7) Women are worth two-thirds the price of a man -- slaves, of course. (8) If a woman is raped and doesn't cry out, no sin is committed. (9) Marauding armies can keep the young virgin girls (how young?) for their own use -- after they kill everyone else in the cities. (10) Killing and burning small animals is pleasing to God. The list of atrocities goes on and on. Evangelicals are religionists who no longer follow the teachings of their own leader. And they want to blow up the world so their leader can return. Morality? I think not.

You didn't act morally Mr. Colson and your involvement in Prison Fellowship is because you were led to prison for your own immoral behavior. Your behavior not only let God down, it led an entire country down.

People who build and live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

I agree with Mr. Colson. It's time for the Church to take the Bible seriously.

We should outlaw divorce altogether, ban football (or any other sport that involves touching the skin of unclean animals), and jail any man who has sex with a woman when she's menstruating.

Thank you, Mr. Colson, for standing up for Biblical values!

Religious orthodoxy is never accepting of anything that challenges their interpetation of a scripture. From the very foundations of Christianity through to the modern age anyone who needed to demonize others for political or social gain has argued against any interpretation of the scriptures that doesnt match their view.

The basic tenants of how to be a good person dont change, they are consistent across many cultures and dont require adherence to definitions of morality defined by theologans, they merely require behaviour accepted by the members of ones society.

I agree with Mr. Colson. It's time for the Church to take the Bible seriously.

We should outlaw divorce altogether, ban football (or any other sport that involves touching the skin of unclean animals), and jail any man who has sex with a woman when she's menstruating.

Thank you, Mr. Colson, for standing up for Biblical values!

Mahtahs, Shmahtahs, Chuckie...
Maybe you will get your pie in the sky when you die... the dinosaurs who lived on Earth for millions of years are still waiting for their wedge... so get in line!

This is for Silence Dogood, and for anybody thinks that "biblical morality" and "anything goes" are the only possible ways to be.

You condemn a society for what you think is an "anything goes" mentality because you are blind to the underlying morality that it requires.

To say that homosexuals in a committed relationship are not guilty of any sin -- or at least, that whether they are or not should be between them and God -- is a MORAL principle. The principle at work there is that people who are harming no one should have the freedom to make their own personal decisions about how to love.

You may not agree with that, and it may conflict with your own ideas of what is moral, but it is NOT "anything goes." It is a conviction that just because something is written in an ancient book does not mean it should be unthinkingly adhered to today. (And you believe that too, even if you won't admit it, or else you'd be living by a whole lot of rules that would not be acceptable today but come straight out of the same Leviticus that condemns homosexuality.)

"Anything goes" would excuse, well, anything. But nobody lives like that. To disagree with the fundamentalist position on homosexuality is simply to believe that other standards should apply, not that no standards do.

This article is so minimal in its statements that it's hard for me to take seriously. A vast number of Christian churches and Christian do not take everything that is written in the bible as literal truth.

In reference to the martyrs Mr. Colson refers to, it doesn't do those brave people any disrespect to acknowledge that the nature of a Christian's faith journey is very different today than it was at the time of the Roman Empire. Biblical interpretation has been a fact of Christian understanding for as long as there as been a Bible.

Two quick thoughts before I have to run - first Michael, don't worry, this is hardly a place where a lot of fundamentalists hang out - lol.

Second, one thing I thought y'all might enjoy: apparently after his release from prison, Colson told one of his first congregations that he understood how bad his sins were and how hard his road to faith had been it could have been much worse - he could have continued being a lawyer. Is bashing lawyers allowed in DC?

This article is so minimal in its statements that it's hard for me to take seriously. A vast number of Christian churches and Christian do not take everything that is written in the bible as literal truth.

In reference to the martyrs Mr. Colson refers to, it doesn't do those brave people any disrespect to acknowledge that the nature of a Christian's faith journey is very different today than it was at the time of the Roman Empire. Biblical interpretation has been a fact of Christian understanding for as long as there as been a Bible.

Just wanted to point out that there are two sects of Lutherans in the U.S. The ELCA, which is considered the more "liberal" church and allows women to be pastors - my old school Lutheran grandpa despises the ELCA. The other branch is the Lutheran church Missouri Synod, which is way more strict and doesn't allow women to be in leadership roles - this is the branch I grew up in. The the MS branch still hates gays, immigrants, anyone who thinks differently, etc. so all you fundies out there don't worry - the MS will still welcome your hate-mongering with open arms. Every time I go to my hometown and have to go to that church, however, I notice that there are fewer and fewer people attending and barely any young people at all. The MS Lutherans are also having a hell of a time getting enough pastors to fill positions, esp. at rural churches.
The ELCA has been much more successful at retaining the faithful.

In any case, the bible is a silly book that's full of myths and that has been changed time and time again by the MEN, not Gods, in the Catholic church over the last 2,000 years. I stopped being a Christian almost 10 years ago and I'm a better, kinder, and more logical person for it. Anyone who takes the bible literally needs their head examined.

If you are a Protestant, you have to remember that there is a priesthood of all believers. The ordained ministers of the faith may play an important practical role in the lives of many people, but forgiveness and a direct relationship with Jesus Christ do not depend on the intervention of any human. Or on the workings of any elaborately defined denomination. (One should be especially skeptical when the rules favor the position, influence, and pocketbooks of established officials of that sect.)

Keep your eye on the prize.

Without casting aspersion on Colson (though such aspersions as have been offered may well be justified), my chief complaint about his argument is that it is based on bad theology. As others have noted, even fundamentalist Christians take much of what one finds in Leviticus and other parts of the Bible with a grain of salt. Moreover, there is considerable scholarly research by mainstream theologians and historians to suggest that Colson and others of his ilk misread the Bible on the subject of homosexuality.

It is likely that the Biblical text in Leviticus on the subject of homosexuality was meant primarily to differentiate between Jews and Gentiles according to social practice and customs common at the time. Thus, homosexuality is dealt with here along with (and in the same terms as) cutting one's sideburns, eating shellfish, etc. -- all these practices are allegedly "abominations" in the eyes of the Lord. The problem is that the English word "abomination" is a mistranslation of the Greek and, in any event, a much different word that the word used consistently in the Bible to connote true sin. Textually -- and it is the text to which fundamentalists claim to adhere -- homosexuality was socially taboo in Judea circa 1400 B.C., but not a sin. Thus, even most Jews shave their sideburns and eat shellfish without even a hint of eternal damnation from their clergy, much less God.

Because I know some fundamentalist out there is just itching to post a quote from Genesis (Sodom and Gomorrah story) or Romans, let me also note that the scholarship indicates that these passage have also been misinterpreted. To be clear, those early misinterpretations may well have been inadvertent; but folks like Colson now have the benefit of thorough and rigorous scholarship on the subject and, yet, persist in branding their bigotry as the word of God.

And, finally, because I know some fundamentalist who, rather than reading the scholarship on the subject, will find it more expedient to attempt to undermine my credibility as an individual, let me say that (1) I am a Lutheran, (2) I am a former Sunday School teacher, (3) I am not gay, (4) I studied theology at a reputable university with a mainline Divinity school, and (5) I am not possessed by the devil, Nancy Pelosi, or Howard Dean.

Paul S.

Actually I was tweaking Clinton and Bush Sr. raising money for their own purposes - not their relief efforts. Clinton did that immediately after he left office and so did Bush Sr. Colson is a convicted felon who is trying to help people in prison find themselves. His public views, as I noted above, are not my particular brand of Christianity, but it seems that one line slams of him from some folks might prompt one to ask "when is the last time you went into a prison to try to help someone?" Speaking as someone who used to teach in them, it seemed a question worth asking.

Chip - nice Mill comment (I'm being serious). My point was that there seems to be two standards with regards to Post forums. Bashing Christians and their foolish, bigoted, outdated beliefs is acceptable. I came on a Post forum as a person of faith, I knew the territory. My broader point is that I wonder how tolerant bashing of other groups in this manner would be here.

"Would I sacrifice my life for something I didn't believe to be true?"

AWW SHUT UP, COLSON!

YOU WERE READY TO SACRIFICE YOUR GRANDMA'S LIFE FOR NIXON, AND HE'S THE BIGGEST LIAR THE COUNTRY EVER HAD UNTIL YOUR NEW BUDDY, BUSH.

--- Faye Kane, homeless smartmouth --- see more of my smartmouth opinions at blog.myspace.com/fayekane

Fortunately, Mr. Colson is not the last word on this or any other issue. He and those of his ilk fail to take one crucial idea into consideration. Throughout both the cultural and religious history of the world, God has moved in new and wonderful ways inorder to ever broaden the boundaries of the realm of those we are called to love and accept unconditionally just as God loves and accepts us.

One would think a man with Mr. Colson's criminal background would be thankful for a God whose love redeems the "other" among us. Even the criminals and those with closed minds who think they speak for God!

Mr. Colson, who is "in the faith," knows that veils have been placed over most of society's eyes...they "see" naturally and not spiritually, so attacks upon Colson are expected.

But most of the anti-Colson theme has been characterized by a 1934 Cole Porter song called,

"Anything Goes"

If the readers would take the time to read the Bible and comprehend the warnings provided in examples of Babylon, Lot's hometown, even Rome; they would understand why "modernism" or even the enlightenment carry spiritual risk for individuals.

That Mr. Colson sounds a warning/alert in an "enlightened" and post-modern world is what he should be doing and the responses - embodied in the lyrics below - are as trite and scary as the 63 year-old song...to those of us who do not walk by the natural senses.

Times have changed,
And we've often rewound the clock
Since the Puritans got a shock
When they landed on Plymouth Tock
If today any shock they should try to stem
'stead of landing of Plymouth Rock
Plymouth Rock would land on them.

In olden days a glimpse of stocking
Was looked on as something shocking
But now God knows
Anything goes

Good authors to
Who once knew better words
Now only use four letter words
Writing prose
Anything goes

If driving fast cars you like
If low bars you like
If old hymns you like
If bare limbs you like
If Mae West you like
Or me undressed you like
Why nobody will oppose

When every night
The set that's smart
Is intruding in nudist parties
In studios
Anything goes

When Mrs. Ned McClean God bless her
Can get Russian reds to yes her
Then I suppose
Anything goes

When Rockefeller still can hoard
Enough money to let Max Gordon
Produce his shows
[Anything Goes lyrics on http://www.metrolyrics.com]

Anything goes

The world has gone mad today
And good's bad today
And black's white today
And days night today
And that gent today
You gave a cent today
Once owned several chateaus

When folks
Who still can ride in jitneys
Find out Vanderbilts and Whitney's
Lack baby clo'es
Anything goes

When Sam Goldwyn
Can with great conviction
Instruct Anna Sten in diction
Then Anna shows
Anything goes

When you hear that
Lady Mendl standing up
Now turns a handspring landing up
On her toes
Anything goes

Just think of those shocks you've got
And those knocks you've got
And those blues you've got
From that news you've got
And those pains you've got
If any brains you've got
From those little radios

So Mrs. R.
With all her trimmin's
Can broadcast a bed from Simmons
Cause Franklin knows
Anything goes

Fundman @ 3:43 p.m.

"..the guy runs a ministry for people in prison who are trying to turn their lives around. He's not running all over the world like a couple of ex-Presidents of both parties chasing dollars."

The man runs a prison "ministry" in an attempt to gain public forgiveness for the crimes which landed him in prison. His "religion" is for his own personal profit (which is necessary, because, as a convicted felon and disbarred attorney, Colson is unable to earn an "honest" living otherwise.

Funny how conservative christians so often turn a blind eye on divorce and remarriage but slam homosexuality. And these are the same ones who seek to "protect" marriage by opposing same sex marriage, while they are busy divorcing and having little affairs on the side. Hypocrisy, thy name is church!

Fundman Said:
"One quick thought about Colson. I don't endorse his particular flavor of Christianity, but it seems to me that all the bashing of him overlooks two things. First off, Christians believe in the redemptive power of Christ. He's more political than I might like, but forgiveness matters for Christians.

Second, the guy runs a ministry for people in prison who are trying to turn their lives around. He's not running all over the world like a couple of ex-Presidents of both parties chasing dollars."

Fundman, I'm confused. Are you as a Christian slagging on Bill Clinton and George Bush Sr. for using their status to raise funds internationally for disaster relief, child poverty and other charitable works? Srikes me as being far more Christian than supposed evangilical Christian leaders spending their time running all over battleground states raising donations and votes for republican candidates of the ilk of David Vitter.

Mr. Colson -- it should be remembered -- strongly supported the invasion of Iraq. His credentials as a representative of Jesus are suspect. He's long on pronouncement....

God Help Us!
We are so self serving...we use the Bible to serve ourselves.

Seek God with all your heart. Without an intimate relationship with Him...we are all lost.

Jesus said, it you want to be His disciple, you must take up your "cross" and follow him.

Jesus died for "our sins" and rose to life...we must all "die to self"...to have "newness" of life.

It is our only Hope.

Ego Nemo, that was a terrific post. Keep 'em coming

Good grief, Colson, you condemn their actions but don't bother to say what they are? How about a link? How about *some* specific point, versus your vague generalizations? You presume to know the will of God, and you also unintentionally or intentionally mislead your readers. Most denominations are not Biblical literalists, but it's hard to know if you're arguing for that or not because you fail to give any context!

Well, well, well, ye of little faith....you now read what you see, and you do not believe what you cannot read, or see....

Look up Faith, my friend in Webster's Dictionary, your an educated man, saith, the Living God, see, what it says, than ponder it....

As a servant of the Living God, this Christian walks by "FAITH"....and not by sight, you cannot see the air, but you know its there....

In conclusion my dear friend, you must....."TAKE A LEAP OF FAITH....Let the "Living God" catch you and then you can come see me at Redeemer Lutheren Church, Elizabethton, Tennessee 37643.

This is where I am and where I am, he is also....

YOu see sir, I took that leap of "FAITH" like King David did, at the age of 10, the "FORCE" has never left me, nor forsakened me, and in fact directs me now.

Only when you take that "LEAP OF FAITH" sir, let the Living God Catch you, its the only way....

You see, he's as real as these letters, and he's as close as a Leap of Faith.

...."Call Unto Me...."And I will Answer Thee, "And
"Show Thee, "Great and Mighty THings." --Jeremiah
(33:3)

Sincerely, Tom Birchfield, Class 2007,
East Tennessee State University,
Voter, Vet USAF,

...."Master's Program, ETSU, Fall 2007

The ELCA is not ignoring biblical standards of moral behavior. It is distinguishing between ancient superstitions, myths, and prejudices and the true essence of Christianity. Christianity rejects many of the injunctions of the Old Testament, including the observance of the ancient Jewish seasonal festivals, the maintenance of a Temple, and the Jewish dietary laws. It is perfectly legitimate for it to reject others -- which in fact occur in the same books and chapters of the Old Testament -- when they are contrary to the principles of Christianity. These principles include tolerance, love of one's neighbor, and forgiveness. If we're not all sacrificing animals, sitting in thatched huts, and writing the words of Deuteronomy 13 on every doorway, what is our excuse for persecuting homosexuals in violation of the teachings of Jesus? The answer is that we have no excuse. To paraphrase Jesus only slightly, let he who follows every one of the 600-odd commandments in the Old Testament be the first to cast a stone at homosexuals.

Fundman writes "One more short point - the Post asks us to note offensive language. Why is it that direct insults to Christianity don't count? Just a thought."

Christianity is not a person. It's a set of ideas. Ideas do not have feelings, and no set of ideas should ever be above reproach or spared from criticism - even harsh criticism. If that weren't true we'd still be unquestioningly supportive of slavery and stoning adulterers, disobedient children, and those who work on the sabbath to death. Somewhere along the way, people had to stand up and speak harshly against such things, just as people are doing now against those who try to use the Bible to defend bigotry and discrimination.

Christian religion is going to have adjust to the norms of society or else it will be left with just extremist. Issues on Gays, women rights and such are not a question of morality, but a question of justice. Just like we discarded the old testament as being too extreme, we also must reevaluate the new testament morals to fit societies advancing views of right and wrong.

Why is Mr. Colson's statement so elliptical? He decries what he calls the "decision … to ignore biblical standards of moral behavior." I had to search through the comments to find out that what he's talking about is a directive not to chastise gays in committed relationships.

I understand that there are differences of opinion about homosexuality. My own view is far to the left of Mr. Colson's. It seems to me that latching onto two or three peripheral passages in scripture and making them the centerpiece of "moral behavior" -- while ignoring page after page about charity and forgiveness, not to mention condemnation of moneylending at interest and restoration of property in Jubilee years -- is a bizarre testimony to sexual anxiety and personal bigotry. But that's just my view.

What I *don't* understand is the reluctance to *say what you're talking about.* Couldn't he have just said, "I disagree with the ECLU's decision about persons in committed gay relationships?" Or even "I think the acceptance of committed gay relationships is a moral outrage?" Then at least we'd know what he's talking about.

Well, well, well, ye of little faith....you now read what you see, and you do not believe what you cannot read, or see....

Look up Faith, my friend in Webster's Dictionary, your an educated man, saith, the Living God, see, what it says, than ponder it....

As a servant of the Living God, this Christian walks by "FAITH"....and not by sight, you cannot see the air, but you know its there....

In conclusion my dear friend, you must....."TAKE A LEAP OF FAITH....Let the "Living God" catch you and then you can come see me at Redeemer Lutheren Church, Elizabethton, Tennessee 37643.

This is where I am and where I am, he is also....

YOu see sir, I took that leap of "FAITH" like King David did, at the age of 10, the "FORCE" has never left me, nor forsakened me, and in fact directs me now.

Only when you take that "LEAP OF FAITH" sir, let the Living God Catch you, its the only way....

You see, he's as real as these letters, and he's as close as a Leap of Faith.

...."Call Unto Me...."And I will Answer Thee, "And
"Show Thee, "Great and Mighty THings." --Jeremiah
(33:3)

Sincerely, Tom Birchfield, Class 2007,
East Tennessee State University,
Voter, Vet USAF,

...."Master's Program, ETSU, Fall 2007

One quick thought about Colson. I don't endorse his particular flavor of Christianity, but it seems to me that all the bashing of him overlooks two things. First off, Christians believe in the redemptive power of Christ. He's more political than I might like, but forgiveness matters for Christians.

Second, the guy runs a ministry for people in prison who are trying to turn their lives around. He's not running all over the world like a couple of ex-Presidents of both parties chasing dollars.

I am left here scratching my head because this piece was way too short. Where's the beef of his argument?? There are two basic kinds of Christians: 1) The kind who welcome all into the "priesthood of all believers," and 2) Those who believe in condemming others as unworthy of God's love. What I just cannot reconcile is how in the world can people do this when "we are all sinners"?? I fear that America is becoming more and more radical in its Christianity. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism, no matter what religion. When a religion starts to hurt people, that is the tell tale sign of something that is not based on Christ's love but rather man's desire to use fear to control!

Mr. Colson's comments are simply furthering the religious hatred that fuels the discontent in this world. Christains such as him and our present administration compare well with Hitler and the superiorority of the Nazis. It's not liberalism -- it's Jesus' Christianity of love and inclusion instead of hate and exclusion as Mr. Colson learned so well at the feet of Richard Nixon.

Colson was happy to sacrifice biblical standards of morality when he embraced the Swift Boat Vetarans for "Truth" and their lying smear campaign against Kerry.

It's ironic that the people who piously moan about the Bible's morality and its unchanging nature are often the first to toss it aside when it suits them. It also means their words have no sway with me.

Colson is just another hypocrite.

Colson was happy to sacrifice biblical standards of morality when he embraced the Swift Boat Vetarans for "Truth" and their lying smear campaign against Kerry.

It's ironic that the people who piously moan about the Bible's morality and its unchanging nature are often the first to toss it aside when it suits them. It also means their words have no sway with me.

Colson is just another hypocrite.

Chris, where have you been? What drives most of the important "current events" is religion. Have you every heard of 911 or the war in Iraq. Are you not aware that the current conversation you came in on is being debated on religious terms. The whole homosexual issues comes down to what you believe is the truth and this is for most of us defined by our religion. Homosexuality is a very important current event.

The Post is doing us all a great service to have a place to dialog on religion. Doe "As a man thinks in his heart, so is he." Welcome to the most important part of the Post.

Colson was happy to sacrifice biblical standards of morality when he embraced the Swift Boat Vetarans for "Truth" and their lying smear campaign against Kerry.

It's ironic that the people who piously moan about the Bible's morality and its unchanging nature are often the first to toss it aside when it suits them. It also means their words have no sway with me.

Colson is just another hypocrite.

More self-righteous posturing from the jailbird! Does he remember "Thou shat not steal?" What a joke!

The sinless Chuck Colson presumes once again to stand in judgment. Keep casting the first stone, Chuck.

I think that people get more satisfaction from a religion that does maintain standards of traditional morality. This is the case for Christian religions like Catholicism, Jehovah's Witnesses, and Mormons. All of them teach traditional morality. It's funny how many Christians in the US seem to accuse these groups of not being Christians when these groups teach traditional Christian behavior better than most other American churches.

Why does the Washington Post give a platform to this felon? What right does he have to speak about morality given his criminal background and his lack of repetence for his thuggery?

Does anyone who picks up The Washington Post for insight on current events actually care about this non-issue? The larger question is who The Post is trying to appeal to with this newfound concern for matters of religious dogma.

I wonder how Mr. Colson can criticize the ELCA when he isn't a member of the Lutheran Church, did not attend the recent Chicago assembly, and has not been part of the ongoing and deep debates.

The ELCA assembly did not change the policy of the ELCA. The regular standards remain. The assembly expressed its "sense" that bishops consider refraining from discipline or, if not refraining, using restraint in discipline. There is a difference. A bishop still may discipline a gay/lesbian partnered pastor or a congregation that calls one.

There are many who see the Church as ignoring more important mission, outreach and service to the world because of all the time being spent in this debate. One poster is correct when he notes that Jesus speaks about divorce, while saying nothing about homosexuality.

As other early posters have noted, this is a debate going on in many different churches/denomiations. It is serious and it calls us to work together in Christian love with the ability to listen to others.

Don

It's certainly your right and choice to be an atheist, and while I certainly hope that God at some point speaks to your heart and you hear Him I can say that 99% of Christians have no problem with folks who don't have faith.

Christians love and pray for everyone. The broader question is behavior that is sinful. The Bible is pretty clear on who decides who's going to heaven; it's also clear (or at least to me) on how to get there.

Nothing like exclusive claim to Christianity combined with judgment and intolerance. I think perhaps conservatives like this gentleman should ponder their own failings rather than chasing after others.

Colson should just be quiet on this issue and quit offending God. If God didn't want homosexuals, either men or women, on this earth, He would quit making them, wouldn't He?

Can you think of a more impressive sign of how debased public discussion has become in this country that so many people are so comfortable in off-handedly condemning and abusing someone who has said something they don't agree with? When we are filled with righteous indignation and scorn, it is almost always a reliable warning sign that we are serving our egos more than we are serving the truth. But frankly, a lot of us (religious or secular, right-wing or left-wing) are as addicted to feeling superior as we are addicted to our cell phones, computers, and flat-screen TV's. We would be different people altogether if we were somehow purged of it. In these discussions, it is not the issues themselves that tell us most about ourselves and our society, it is how we discuss the issues...

Ramble:
**And the "moral" sins that Colson referenses are clearly covered in the New Testament.**

The only times homosexuality is mentioned in the NT are in the writings of Paul. Paul didn't want anyone marrying or having sex at all, so we can't really look at him as an objective source of information regarding divine will on the subject.

Odd how people who eat pork and work on Saturday adhere so strictly to the Law. Talk about cafeteria Christianity!

How did this man get this soap box to stand on in the first place?

Once we finally see the Bible for the wretched claptrap that is -- cobbled-together fairy tales, violent nonsense, and stories that are easy to bend to one's creepy proclivities -- and stop using as the reference book that trumps common sense and civil goverment, then we have gone a long way to freeing people's minds from prejudices that create evil.

I am a very happy atheist who doesn't need some antique collection of superstition to explain how to be a decent person. But apparently a criminal mind like Mr. Colson's needs the reassurance of some black-and-white authority like the Bible to fill up that empty hole where his soul should be.

And quit beating up on gay people. Why is anti-gay bigotry tolerated among so-called Christians? Does your religion give the right to decide which of God's children to accept or scorn?

Elaine

Of course how we love is a bit more complicated then you let on. I would argue the Bible gives us a more specific road map. We don't love everyone in the same way; we manage our own lives in specific ways, and we are part of a larger faith tradition as Christians that goes beyond that one, really, really, important Commandment.

And, Christ says a lot of other stuff in the New Testament that I would argue also matters - a lot.

It is important to understand that fundamentalists using The Bible as literal inerrant "truth" are not only against homosexuality as a sin, but are in favor of killing homosexuals. Leviticus 20:13.

We fear the barbarity and bloodthirstiness of fundamentalist Islam, yet we often overlook the fact that fundamentalist Christians believe in doctrines in which murder (preferably by stoning) is encouraged for a myriad of "offenses."

When "Reverend" Colson, and others of his ilk, wish to enforce "biblical standards of moral behavior," be afraid; be very afraid.

Elaine

Of course how we love is a bit more complicated then you let on. I would argue the Bible gives us a more specific road map. We don't love everyone in the same way; we manage our own lives in specific ways, and we are part of a larger faith tradition as Christians that goes beyond that one, really, really, important Commandment.

And, Christ says a lot of other stuff in the New Testament that I would argue also matters - a lot.

Mr. Colson,
You obviously haven't read the Gospels. Nowhere was Jesus quoted as saying homosexuals must be persecuted. In fact, just the opposite. I suggest you read the quotation of Jesus in Matthew 19: 11-12.
-------------
7 "Why then," they asked, "did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?"

8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery."

10 The disciples said to him, "If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry."

11 Jesus replied, "Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage[c]because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."
NEW INTERNATIONAL VERSION

It makes no difference. Lutherism will slowly fade from society as will all contemporary forms of Christianity and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. Associating the Singularity with these mythical assistants and opponents mocks the concept of God.

I couldn't help but notice that under the title "Lost Lutherans" the first thing you see is Chuck Colson's picture. I am so relieved to see the intelligent comments here, and even humor. I too remember well the use of quote "The Bible" to support slavery. How Jesus must weep I think, the man who believed that God is Love. I am a Lutheran homosexual, not by choice, but by the way God made me. I often wonder at the vitriol saved for gay people. The "Bible," as the written version that got out as opposed to whatever it was meant to say is a lot more clear on divorce for example. Do I hear anyone demanding that all divorced people be expelled from their churches or a loud cry to refuse to re-marry them? Interesting, isn't it. Why is that, that the words of this text are used so often for the bigotry of the day? Such harm has been done in this world in the name of God. It is enough to throw the whole concept out the window unless you think for yourself about what it was all originally supposed to mean. As I said, how the supreme power of it all must weep. I suppose it's no wonder that this man is relegated to a captive audience. Talk about doing hard time.

Jesus did not hew to the letter of the Jewish law. For example, he did not allow the woman to be stoned to death for being adulterous. Rather Jesus taught but ONE commandment: Love thy neighbor as thyself. This is the only law and teaching that deserves adherence by people who consider themselves to be Christian.

Jesus did not hew to the letter of the Jewish law. For example, he did not allow the woman to be stoned to death for being adulterous. Rather Jesus taught but ONE commandment: Love thy neighbor as thyself. This is the only law and teaching that deserves adherence by people who consider themselves to be Christian.

Tommy:
"The apostate Lutherans are not the only ersatz Christians or Jews who have opted for a standard that man, not God, is the measure of all things."

Man, not God, Wrote the Bible and passed along its traditions. We as humans are by definition flawed and imperfect, and yet you would have us base the most important relationship in our lives, that of faith, on a book that was written in Hebrew and Greek over 1500 years ago, translated into latin thereafter, passed along from illiterate society to illiterate society (with the most common literacy excercise being to write the bible... from memory) until it has made its way into a period of time in which its standards are, through the simple course of history, almost comically inapplicable, especially as they were designed for a completely different society. As I said before, if we must use religious law as a basis for behaviour, the Ten Commandments serve as a universal set of basic principles which we can obviously point to as divine (if that is your particualr belief). Far better to look at Christ's teachings philosophically and apply them to our lives, not try to rule our lives according to 1st-5th century moral standards written by men who never met Christ.

Tommy:
"The apostate Lutherans are not the only ersatz Christians or Jews who have opted for a standard that man, not God, is the measure of all things."

Man, not God, Wrote the Bible and passed along its traditions. We as humans are by definition flawed and imperfect, and yet you would have us base the most important relationship in our lives, that of faith, on a book that was written in Hebrew and Greek over 1500 years ago, translated into latin thereafter, passed along from illiterate society to illiterate society (with the most common literacy excercise being to write the bible... from memory) until it has made its way into a period of time in which its standards are, through the simple course of history, almost comically inapplicable, especially as they were designed for a completely different society. As I said before, if we must use religious law as a basis for behaviour, the Ten Commandments serve as a universal set of basic principles which we can obviously point to as divine (if that is your particualr belief). Far better to look at Christ's teachings philosophically and apply them to our lives, not try to rule our lives according to 1st-5th century moral standards written by men who never met Christ.

thoughout the centuries laws and customs of oppression, sanctioned by the church, have been overcome in the courts, by new law, and in the public opinion. the church was used to stifle the role and opportunity of women, people of color, and just about anyone else that was around. bibical moralities, history has proven, can mean just about anything you want them to mean at the time. why is it any different now? and just what are the great social accomplishments of conservatism?

Chuck who??

Chuck,

How many people have you stoned lately? Not ALL biblical teaching is truth.

Mr. Colson is a convicted felon. That means he has the perversion of justice as a possibility deep in his character. The only way he can keep it at bay is by going waaaay in the other direction where there is only right/wrong, good/bad. But for a professed Christian to claim that liberal Christians are not in the Christian fold is the lowest kind of blow that even Mr. Colson should be ashamed of.

Don't ignore Chuck, because the GOP is at war with organizations like the Lutherans. Why? Because they own LAND, and they have INVESTMENTS, and they have RETIREMENT FUNDS.

This is called "idle capital" and needs to be looted by any means possible.

Then the members can be funneled into churches that are taking "faith based" funding, which means that the GOP can BUY their votes.

And that is the reals story behind the GOP's war on mainstream religion.

I have no idea what he is talking about. Surely to goodness the ELCA is not supporting President Bush's decision to deny health care to small children. This flies in the face of Jesus very words: "As you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."

Jake

We have a number of texts that describe Christ's actions here. They are incorporated into the Bible. How else are we to know Christ? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. Spiritual people may very well feel little need to know Christ through the Bible, but for Christians I'm not sure what those other paths might be.

Several folks have mentioned the way the today's Bible has evolved. Here I'd like to point to another "middle ground." For those of us who don't deny dinosaurs and such, we still look around us and see God's hand. Again, I'm Catholic, so I'm biased, but I don't see how the evolution of a Bible can be associated with the idea that the Spirit and God weren't involved in that process.

I am proud to be a member of the ELCA.

I thank Ego Nemo for his earlier posting of the details of this resolution.

At the risk of stating the obvious, the ELCA's four million-plus membership includes people with a wide range of views on the subject of homosexuality. There are those who feel strongly that homosexuality is a sin and a personal choice, as Mr. Colson appears to believe. There are others who do not view homosexuality as a sin or personal choice, are openly welcoming of gay people in the church, and have no problem with gay clergy in committed relationships. I suspect the majority of ELCA members, including myself, fall somewhere between these extremes. These differences of opinion within the ELCA are clearly reflected within the split 538 to 431 vote.

I applaud the ELCA and its representatives for wrestling with this complex, potentially divisive issue in an honest, democratic fashion. We are not the first denomination to do so and we should not be the last.

Once again, Mr. Colson appears to be trying to silence honest and democratic debate within the church in favor of his own stale, patriarchal Biblical interpretaion. Perhaps that also explains why he recently defended the Pope's unfortunate comments regarding Protestantism. I can assure Mr. Colson that we to worship an awesome God in the ELCA, a God that is far bigger than the petty squabbles and distractions which continue to divide his church on earth.

Throughout the New Testament we are exhorted to live lives that are pleasing to God. So many posters say that because Mr. Colson has a past, his words can not be trusted. We all have pasts simply because we're all sinners. That makes all of us hypocrites because we say one thing but do another (Romans Chapter 7 speaks to this). But that's the beauty of grace and mercy when you have a one-on-one relationship with the Lord. God does not punish us as we deserve (mercy), he gives us a second chance (grace). And, a third chance (more grace). Mr. Colson's life since the crime & the time served, has born fruit of the Spirit (love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control) and gives him the credentials to speak to the topic.

Ah, the plaintiff wail of the Christian Bigot, "the Bible says so and therefore being a hate-monger towards others is justified." What a load of bull crap...

Colson was Nixon's hatchetman who said he would run down his own grandmother on behalf of the GOP. Now he's in the "faithiness" business laying down morality rules and excommunicating heretics. Who gives this felon and hypocrite the right to tell Americans what or what not to believe? Why doesn't the Post label his op-eds with what will be written by History's pen: "FELON, MORAL DWARF, IDEOLOGUE, HYPOCRITE, APOLOGIST STILL FOR REACTION AND ORTHODOXY."

Well, there's nothing like a convicted felon to give us all lessons in morality.

I don't know much about Colson or his politics, but he seems to be on the right side of the argument. If you profess to be a Christian and go to a Christian church and are not using the Bible as the moral truth, then why exactly are you there? This trend to try to legitimize immoral behavior yet claiming to follow God's word astounds me to no end.

"The broader issue that the Bible may not reflect Christ seems to me a bit bizarre."

The idea that it DOES seems bizarre to me. All of it was written decades or even centuries after Jesus supposedly died, by different people from different sects who directly contradict each other on a multitude of important points (the gentile mission, the point Jesus became the messiah, the importance of the apostles, the importance of Jesus' immediate family) which indicate their loyalty to rival sects from the early days of Christianity. Pulling all of these writings into one book (and rejecting the other scripture that didn't fit) was part of the harmonization process by which the Catholic Church consolidated its authority.

At the end of the day, we don't even have any credible (non-faith-based) evidence that Jesus was a real person. If there was a Jewish rabbi/prophet/messiah/political leader named Yeshua in the Middle East around the time we refer to as the first century, his teachings don't seem to have survived in any direct sense, as there are no writings about him from the time of his supposed life.

The apostate Lutherans are not the only ersatz Christians or Jews who have opted for a standard that man, not God, is the measure of all things.

I wouldn't say the apostate Lutherans and Episcopalians (among other Progressive Protestants), the liberal or "liberationist" Catholics, and Reform Jews are not religions, but they are definitely not Christians or Jews in any traditional sense of Christians or Jews.

If you profess that man, not God, is the measure of all things, then your religion is man-based, not God-based, and that makes you a secular humanist.

Why not just admit it honestly? Why claim falsely to be Christians or Jews?

The fact that most of the people posting to this comment are ready to tar-and-feather Mr Colson, and are in fact judging him, demonstrates the clear need we have in this country to preach the Gospel and understand the meaning and importance of forgiveness.

More scary than refreshing!

The moral relativists smugly dismiss Colson's morals - oh the irony and hypocrisy!

"I've drawn a line in the sand - if you are on my side you are profound and noble, otherwise you are ignorant and corrupt." Moral absolutists like Colson can say this without hypocrisy - moral relativists cannot.

All Colson is saying is that Churches should be exemplars of some absolute moral standard found in the Bible. Otherwise they are nothing more than social clubs. You moral relativists may disagree with him but it is intellectual dishonest to condemn him.

The eternal war between the sexual libertine and the sexually repressed--who aren't really that repressed when they think nobody is looking, continues to rage.

There seems to be a lot of confusion here regarding how literally Christians should interpret the Bible.

From one who has studied Christian religion extensively, the Old Testament is filled what would certainly be considered "outdated" today, (such as slavery, being forced to marry your rapist, etc.). Certainly we take the Old Testament with a grain of salt.

But the teachings of Christ began in the New Testament, which most Christians believe should be taken literally (based of course upon a reasonable range of interpretations of language, etc.). And the "moral" sins that Colson referenses are clearly covered in the New Testament.

I'm no right-wing fundamentalist, but I believe Colson makes an excellent point, if today's Christians are to take the New Testament as the basis for our religion.

To try to equate this column with bigotry is ridiculous. We can accept each other as God's children, as Christ did, while condemning immorality.

Love the sinner, hate the sin.

The eternal war between the sexual libertine and the sexually repressed--who aren't really that repressed when they think nobody is looking continues to rage.

this 'man' did not enter the prison ministry out of the goodness of his heart...

He was sent to prison because he's a criminal.
and he still is.

Please please please

let us all ignore Biblical standards of morality

or we will end up like Nixon-criminal, theofascist Colson!!

Or like Bush, who commits genocide in the name of Christ--

Sorry, but I take issue when felons try and lecture the rest of us about "morality".

Please please please

let us all ignore standards of morality

or we will end up like Colson!!

Or like Bush, who commits genocide in the name of Christ--

Good point Chuck and I agree with you. I was a Lutheran but saw this coming 3 years ago. I now enjoy worshiping at a Biblically correct church and would urge every Christian out there, if they don't agree with these kinds of liberal policies from management, to find a church that is Biblically correct. It is a free country and we don't have to be forced into their sin. There are more new Churches being formed every day as people leave the churches that have been taken over. Church attendance and the faithful grow but watch as the Lutherans wither on the vine. The branch that does not produce fruit will be taken away. We all will suffer but this to will pass.

John 15:2 Every branch of mine that bears no fruit, he takes away, and every branch that does bear fruit he prunes, that it may bear more fruit.

Two words: Sodom and Gamorrah (yes, I know the spelling is likely off).

Colson should take a look at the unspeakable damage done by the "church" in the past millenia. The church has advocated everything from "the Earth is not round" to "gays can't find salvation in Jesus."

Churches thrive on keeping their congregations scared of God by having any beliefs that are not in line with the perceived intellect of the community. If you change your community, then the definition of acceptable beliefs will change also.

Just look at George Bush. "God told me to start the Iraq War." His words, not mine. Forget the lies about WMDs, the rigged intelligence info, the vindictive inclinations to repair what his father (the first president Bush) had screwed up. Nope, the whole thing is God's fault.

Modern Christianity has lost track of the sun. They are on their own political bandwagon and are drunk with the political power they have achieved. But where are these loving Christians when they thwart stem cell research, that could save thousands (maybe millions) of lives? Where are they when birth control, even if through abortion, helps keep the world's population from bloating even more. The Earth cannot even support those who are here now (witness global warming, famine, territorial wars in the Mideast, etc.)

Have you tried to find a parking spot in New York City lately? Indeed, the world population is twice what could be supported with sustained replenishment. But the "Christian" self-justifying leaders blather on and on about how their vision of the world is the only correct vision.

Bull.

Colson's Comment is Offensive
as Usual

And he has been soundly reported as such here.

Bigotry and ignorance in the name of Jesus is what Mr Colson regularly provides us.

BTW, Norrie is right, this is a good step but a small one. Let's pray for the courage on the part of the Lutherans to support Gay Marriage.

Blue92110:

What I believe Mr. Baum, among other posters, was trying to say, was that even by the strictest Christian tradition Christ's most direct involvement with the writing of the bible was as it's muse or inspiration. Christ's teachings to the Apostles and His disciples during his lifetime were passed along word by word of mouth over the centuries before the first written versions of the book we call the bible came out. Even the Church has acknowledged that the versions which came out were probably heavily edited by early Roman popes to fit in with the transition from paganism to Christianity as the State religion of the empire.

The Laws of God were in fact set down in stone (on two tablets no less) and have served as the basis for common law throughout western history. The bible is the product of word of mouth and societal memory created in a time when 99 percent of the world was illiterate, making it difficult to regard it as an actual codification of Christ's teachings so much as an interpretation of the memoirs of his contemporaries (remembering that he didn't even nominally author any of it himself) by learned (?) men long after both Christ and the Bible's Books' supposed authors were long dead. So for literalists such as Mr. "cast the first stone" Colson and yourself to point to it as being an ironclad code of behavior as aset down by the Lord is disingenuous, as it's moral codes are likely intended more for the guidance of the society at the time of the writing, not rules set down from heaven.

Cheers,

Paul S. Boudreau

Most clergy are pretty gay, whether they admit it or not.

SHEER ignorance...and speaking of which...

and i'm just curious, but does that picture of him look like it was taken 30 years ago?

Chuck Colson lecturing on issues of morality? What a hoot...that's like inviting Dunbya to expound on the physics of "string theory" (no George, put that shoelace away...this is a different kind of string)

Colson doesn't take paragraphs, piled higher and deeper, to get said what essentially needs to be said about so-called Christian liberals (a cover name for secular humanists), and no one has said it any better than Colson does here.

Chuck Colson is just a big old pile of poop. What a dum-dum.

Legalism over God's love as exemplified by Jesus. To go back to obscure isolated texts (most of which are in the Old Testament) as the basis of one's religion is to deny Jesus's overall message of treating others as you would want to be treated.

For Chuck Colson to be accusing others of immorality is, shall we say, ludicrous. Look to thyself, Mr. Colson.

spot on. liberals don't need religion or so they think, and any catholic like myself must see the contradiction between church teaching and liberalism. here i do not refer to the kind of universalist pope knows all religious dogmatism of pope john paul and the current pope. i simply mean the real traditional religious orientation of the church, which recognized the weakness and sinful disposition of human beings, and hence made forgiveness central to its moral orientation. it can embrace science and technology but science and technology as we have it today can only embrace liberalism, its goals are immediate, beneath its nose, making money, making a pill, logging. it is without faith for it has no meaning beyond what can be seen, it has no historical goal, no telos in life. it's like the man who followed his nose, but whose nose was all awry...if the blind lead the blind....yet the same liberals criticize the direction of our present world in terms of ecology etc...so if science and technology without faith is having disatrous consequences why not give faith a re-think, its been around a long time, and even though it too failed humanity at times, mostly due to universalist and fundamentalist moments of "enthusiasm", it has served us well in many other ways.

I want to know what it is about the truth that frightens people so much. Most of the comments in response to Charles Colson’s post are evidence of shear ignorance and a willingness to ignore God’s rule and pattern. Same sex marriage is not ordained by God, such a union has never been approved by the Creator and never will. Most of what I read is inherently designed and intended to confuse those who are not sensitive to the Spirit, Rule, or soveranity of God. Remember; male and female he created them.

So either the Washington Post knowingly publishes self-serving hypocritical claptrap from one of the biggest political criminals of modern times, OR...

...The Washington Post published this NOT knowing Chuck Colson's previous history.

And people wonder why newspaper readership keeps going down.

Rzzzzz

So, do you want us to use the Bible or not? Let's take a tougher part. Christ compares the rich man's shot at heaven to a camel through the eye of a needle. Now, by almost any definition Americans are rich compared to the rest of the world. Do we throw that part out as well?

Sir, if there is one inescapable fact about human sociology, including morality, it is that nothing ever stays the same.

Two thousand years ago it was perfectly alright to consider blacks as an inferior type of subhuman, according to the Bible. Two thousand years ago slavery was condoned by the Bible. Two thousand years ago women were considered to be little more than slaves, according to the Bible. Two thousand years ago the moral way to punish adulterers was to stone them to death. Yet again, according to the Bible. Ah, yes, and two thousand years ago the Bible preached 'an eye for an eye'. That is, until Jesus rejected that so very explicitly.

Now, would you advocate a return to any of the above? After all, none of these Biblical rulings on morality are practiced any more in Western Christian society.

Does any Christian today truly believe what they uphold today as Christianity would be anything but alien to those of Biblical times? Christianity has changed so much over the last two millenniums, for someone to believe that these questions of explicitly stated sinful prohibitions shouldn't take a back seat to our higher calling of spreading Christ's love to ALL peoples, even those who may be homosexual, just as we have done with fornicators and divorces and blessed marriages is ludicrous and unChristlike. Let he who is without sin cast the first stone and excommunicate those you consider sinners. Though I believe WE ALL fall short.

while you're at it, Chuck, can we get the Sermon on the Mount redacted from the text? That stuff is just about the worst liberal tirade on record.

If so-called liberal Christianity is not really Christianity, but liberalism, then conservative Christianity is even less Christianity than it is bigotry and hate.

Mr. Colson apparently feels he has now transcended his criminal past and is able to judge others, conveniently forgetting the Biblical injunction not to do so.

Douglas

No doubt faith and religion have been used throughout history in ways totally contrary to its spirit. I can't think of any institution that humans get a crack at that doesn't make significant errors. Governments killed millions in the 20th century - not governments that represent what we think are right. By the same token we acknowledge and value what those institutions can do to make the world better.

Christianity, grounded in the Bible and faith, can be a force for tremendous good, but it certainly shouldn't get in bed with government or impose its values through law. That's when Crusades happen.

I am sorry, but good old Chuck Colson trying to speak to morality is a bit like George W. Bush speaking about Civil Liberties. I hear the words, but the actions say something else entirely.

The right wing Christian version of "morality" is anything but moral, and I would certainly never trust them to interpret the teachings of Jesus, or any other aspect of the Bible, for me!!

Hearing a lecture on ethics from Chuck "I'd run over my grandmother to get Nixon elected" Colson is like hearing a lecture on animal welfare from Michael Vick. Sorry, but I'm not able to forgive what you tried to do to my Constitution.

Jesus said that it is a narrow road that leads to life and few there are that find it. When my wife and I were disappointed in the way a minister we knew acted, we said to the Lord Jesus:"Lord, there seem to be so few that follow you." He responded: "There will be very, very few." Jesus said there were two fundamental commandments: Love God and love your neighbor. All the other commandments hang on these. No person with sin in his life will see the Lord. The bible is God's word to us and following Jesus is the only way to salvation. Turn your attention to Him and He will direct your path. Chuck is serving God and leading people in the way of truth. Rather that fighting him you should honor his efforts to save the lost from destruction.

Word Man's point about taking selectively from the Bible is, of course, the crux of the problem. The difficulty I think Colson is pointing to is that once you start cherry picking, where do you stop? Perhaps it's because I'm Catholic, but it seems to me that some form of structure and some set of beliefs are necessary above and beyond individual views on what the Bible says. Religion has to have limits to make it work.

In the end, God judges us, but he does it based on a lifetime of actions and choices. We are guided to faith by the works, church leaders, prayer, reflection and the Spirit. So it seems to me that some middle ground can exist in which all of the Bible is not taken literally and I can selectively choose the parts I want.

Do you seriously suppose that religion is key to moral behavior? Think Crusades, moral jihadists, pedophile priests, invocations of diety before performing inhuman acts in wars and other contests between peoples -- come on!

"Who wants to belong to a church that doesn't treat biblical teachings as truth? Would I sacrifice my life for something I didn't believe to be true? Of course not. But martyrs from the first century on have."

Mr. Colson, I hope you wouldn't sacrifice your life for every teaching in the Bible, because if you worship the Bible itself that much, you're making an idol out of the Bible.
Christians worship the triune God. The truth for Christians, the truth martyrs have been moved to die for, lies in the existence of a loving God and our duty to Him, not in each and every phrase of Scripture. Scripture is the word of man, attempting to interpret and communicate the un-knowable and indescribable truth of God. The whole of the Bible, not individual passages, gives us a lighted path to contemplate God and to pattern our lives. But many believe that the Bible cannot contain the whole truth about God, because nothing can, and that God continues to reveal His truth even today.
It really sounds to me like you are worshiping scripture, which is not the same as worshiping God.

"Biblical standards of moral behavior?" I'm guessing that Mr. Colson is referring to the same Bible that condones slavery, encourages us to stone prostitutes to death, and so on. Those moral "standards," plus many others contained in the Bible, are today considered archaic, inhumane, and barbaric. Mr. Colson, like all of those who clothe their bigotry in the supposed righteousness of the Bible, does not explain why the Bible's treatment of homosexuality should be deemed infallible, whereas other Biblical mores are not. As for me, I prefer to believe that the sort of discrimination Mr. Colson and others preach is contrary to the New Testament's focus on loving all people in the way their God created them.

Thanks for sharing the thoughts of a convicted felon. It is always comforting to hear from wingnut crew. Once again your are full of absurdity. Please just go away.

"Biblical standards of moral behavior?" I'm guessing that Mr. Colson is referring to the same Bible that condones slavery, encourages us to stone prostitutes to death, and so on. Those moral "standards," plus many others contained in the Bible, are today considered archaic, inhumane, and barbaric. Mr. Colson, like all of those who clothe their bigotry in the supposed righteousness of the Bible, does not explain why the Bible's treatment of homosexuality should be deemed infallible, whereas other Biblical mores are not. As for me, I prefer to believe that the sort of discrimination Mr. Colson and others preach is contrary to the New Testament's focus on loving all people in the way their God created them.

"Biblical standards of moral behavior?" I'm guessing that Mr. Colson is referring to the same Bible that condones slavery, encourages us to stone prostitutes to death, and so on. Those moral "standards," plus many others contained in the Bible, are today considered archaic, inhumane, and barbaric. Mr. Colson, like all of those who clothe their bigotry in the supposed righteousness of the Bible, does not explain why the Bible's treatment of homosexuality should be deemed infallible, whereas other Biblical mores are not. As for me, I prefer to believe that the sort of discrimination Mr. Colson and others preach is contrary to the New Testament's focus on loving all people in the way their God created them.

Here is mr moral teaching the world about morality.

I suspect that there is money to be made even here. The word of God at 10$ per word, thank you very much!!!

Seems to me that Mr. Colson does not have many fans, nor does this particular commentary. I would like to propose that true Christianity is intimately knowing, through direct experience, the living Jesus Christ, and his Father, as the first century church did. Each one of them, to be a true disciple, had to have the living God living within them, and his power to love, forgive, discern, teach, and follow. In my experience, and my estimation, most who call themselves Christians (what Chuck refers to as "mainline") do not have this direct experience of the living Christ, but rather rely only on the Bible. Once you know Jesus personally, through direct experience, you can much more clearly understand the Biblical teachings, in light of His character and nature. There is also great benefit to understanding the context of teachings in light of the hebrew culture and the original text, but only after you know Him first.

Hearing a lecture on ethics from Chuck "I'd run over my grandmother to get Nixon elected" Colson is like hearing a lecture on animal welfare from Michael Vick. Sorry, but I'm not able what you tried to do to my Constitution.

Amazing and totally REFRESHING retorts
on Colson's ridiculous commentary today.
I am so glad to see all these posts
from folks who won't be had by this
hypocrite. Thank you all!

There are many of us who say the exact opposite. Who wants to belong to a church that endorses bigotry and discrimination? Not myself, not my wife or anyone in my family. Does that make us less Christian than others? Or more open-minded?

There are tons of things in the Bible that people choose to ignore as outdated, in terms of morality--and yes, that does inlcude many conservative crhistians whether people like it or not. Things such as slavery, beating your child, making a rape victim marry her rapist, and genocide are but the start. We left those old notions behind and recognize them as crimes against Humanity.

Instead of embracing the worst injunctions of a book, why not embrace the best; judge not lest ye be judged. Do onto others as you would have them do unto you. Injustice shakes the foundation of the earth. Are these not worthy values? Taking every last word and living by it would have us killing people left and right for some really inane reasons. And bigotry against homosexuality is just not something I will ever aspire to or espouse.

Christ's teachings, one might argue, ought to reflect a religion that calls itself "Christian." That doesn't seem complicated; so perhaps I'm missing something here.

The broader issue that the Bible may not reflect Christ seems to me a bit bizarre. What then is Christianity if it's not the Bible? Several folks have said in the name of bigotry and close-mindedness Christ's words are distorted by some Christians. No doubt sometimes they are. However it's important to remember that Christ had more than a few passages that were NOT so tolerant. One example is the famous passage in Luke in which he says that he comes to divide and set the world on fire. It's not all open, fuzzy stuff.

One more short point - the Post asks us to note offensive language. Why is it that direct insults to Christianity don't count? Just a thought.

Christ's teachings, one might argue, ought to reflect a religion that calls itself "Christian." That doesn't seem complicated; so perhaps I'm missing something here.

The broader issue that the Bible may not reflect Christ seems to me a bit bizarre. What then is Christianity if it's not the Bible? Several folks have said in the name of bigotry and close-mindedness Christ's words are distorted by some Christians. No doubt sometimes they are. However it's important to remember that Christ had more than a few passages that were NOT so tolerant. One example is the famous passage in Luke in which he says that he comes to divide and set the world on fire. It's not all open, fuzzy stuff.

One more short point - the Post asks us to note offensive language. Why is it that direct insults to Christianity don't count? Just a thought.

Yes, in these trying times we need more people willing to become martyrs. And yes, we need to return to traditions from centuries past. All else dishonors our God and our religion.

Who cares what Charles W Colson thinks about Lutherans? When did God appoint Charles W Colson to be His Represenative to correct the ELCA?

"I would like to pose a question: Did Jesus say, 'Come follow christianity" or did He say, "Come follow Me.'? Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum."

Um, Thomas, Christianity is based on Christ and his teachings. Jesus was clear about the moral law he espoused and identified with. Reading new doctrine into his words is simply a stretch.

Chuck Colson spews a hypocritical interpretation of christianity that fits well with the radical right wing of his republican party. If liberalism is about treating all people equally and kindly, and helping the less fortunate, than God must be a liberal, and Chuck belongs to "another religion." Hal

Y0U, Sir, have NO RIGHT to cast judgement on ANYONE.

"Remove the mote from thine own eye..."

Remember that?

Probably not since you penned this intolerant, self-serving, holier-than-thou commentary.

Awesome folks! Let's let the Lord do the judging, He is the only one that counts, His judgement alone!

Awesome folks! Let's let the Lord do the judging, He is the only one that counts, His judgement alone!

I think we should all ignore this absurd statement from an absurd individual. It seems obvious to me that he is seeking to engender as many negative responses to then hold up as examples of "liberal" ignorance.

I think it's obvious who the ignorant one is. While I certainly applaud any effort Mr. Colson makes to assist inmates in making the transition from anti-social behavior towards a more spiritual orientation, I have to question his motives and his post, which seems weak and specious at best.

Mr. Colson,

your belief is superfluous. You are just making matters worse. Stuck in 2000 years+ metaphors, superstition, written up by some irrelvant individuals if judged by todays measures and problems.

Reason is needed, not dogma.

Get real work.

Holy smokes! Is no one going to defend Chuck Colson. We keep hearing this is a Christian nation, built on Christian values. All of these comments suggest that Brother Colson's version of Christianity no longer has the hold on folks as it once did, and not so long ago at that.

I have no great love for Chuck Colson. I'm glad he found religion, darned shame it didn't enter into his life a whole lot sooner. I say we ignore him.

Unfortunately, I beleive that most evangelical Christians and charismatic Roman Catholics are extremely judgemental. They condemn all sorts of people using the Bible. The Bible was given to us as a liberating force for our lives,a nd not to bash others over the head with it. Mr. Colson, Jesus Christ was the most open minded and welcoming person in history. We, his followers, have made our Churches country clubs with tight admissions guidelines. I think there's room for everyone, of every color, sexual orientation, and political leaning in God's house. We are all God's daughters and sons.

Like YOU are some moral authority? What a joke!

And so, only the Bible handed down for centuries, from scripts selected by less learned men can be true? And if I think that
God is still Speaking? And I see injustices if the Bible is adhered to literally by men even less learned?

No, Sir, you/we do NOT have the definitive answer neatly wrapped up in a lovely binding reading Holy Bible- if we did we would not have the continued blunders by our Christian leaders, who ignore Micah and early prophets and misinterpret the Teachings of Jesus.

No, Sir - you may love your Bible, you may love your God, but
God is not finished speaking to us yet. I am not a Lutheran, but from another great liberal church and I seek to hear the continued voice of the ever speaking God to all men not only through the lovely words of the Holy Bible but from faithful men of my own time.

Wait I thought the whole reason to mobilize against "Islamofascism" is to spare us from the horrors of Sharia law.

But here's Chuck advocating that we need our own version of Sharia law.

Chuck, you may want to go peddle this in Tehran. They have religious schools, pray for the return of their Messiah, and plan to retake Jerusalem to bring on the final showdown between good and evil.

You would definitely feel more at home under the Caliphate.

Chuck's belief that people should "follow biblical standards of moral behavior" is dangerous. The punishment for the sin of adultery is death, according to the bible. I'd rather have other penalties for adultery.

Charles Colson says the following:

"The decision by the ELCA to ignore biblical standards of moral behavior is, given the history of modern mainline Christianity, not surprising, but it is deeply distressing.

Who wants to belong to a church that doesn't treat biblical teachings as truth? Would I sacrifice my life for something I didn't believe to be true? Of course not."

It must be assumed that this former felon believes in slavery, killing those children who speak back to their parents, and slaughtering those people who work on the Sabbath. If one is going to believe that each word of the Bible is revealed truth, inconvenient concepts like support for enslavement should not cause a weakening of this faith.

It is fully understandable why Colson and others would adopt this attitude: It certainly is easier than thinking. Actually going beyond scripture, talking points, and bumper stickers is much harder than shutting off one's brain and turning to the magic of belief. That is why Reagan and the second Bush were elected twice: They never asked us to think, and we were grateful.

Why is it that so much of Christianity is based, not on the teachings of the man it's named after, but on the ravings of a sexually repressed, misogynist Pharisee who heard voices?

"Moral behavior"...
THIS from a man who worked for Nixon!
(we have not forgotten, Charlie)

The question is posed; Who wants to belong to a church that doesn't treat biblical teachings as truth?

I find this interesting for several reasons.

1. Jesus did not write ANY of the Bible.

2. The Bible was compiled by the early Catholic church, long after Jesus death.

3. What Jesus said, what the Bible says, and Biblical teaching come with no guarantee of being the same.

Jesus is not even quoted on the subject of homosexuality, let alone leaving any personal writings on the subject.

The common use of Leviticus and Romans are neither Jesus' (God incarnate) words, nor crystal clear in meaning.

I find it interesting the way that what is said about slavery is much more clear, but these "Christians" can spin that one, and yet the "homosexuality" passages are vague but touted as plain and evident.

In any event, these require being taught a particular interpretation.

So really, what does the question above mean?

I can see what it implies, and to that I say, "Shame on you, Mr. Colson".

A little humility would better serve the Lord!

Wow, I'm glad we have someone like you who can tell us what religion we are and what we aren't. Who needs to think for themselves and read the bible and seriously reflect on its meaning when we can just take your opinion. Please, tell me more of what I should think in order to be a good Christian.

Wow, I'm glad we have someone like you who can tell us what religion we are and what we aren't. Who needs to think for themselves and read the bible and seriously reflect on its meaning when we can just take your opinion. Please, tell me more of what I should think in order to be a good Christian.

Wow, I'm glad we have someone like you who can tell us what religion we are and what we aren't. Who needs to think for themselves and read the bible and seriously reflect on its meaning when we can just take your opinion. Please, tell me more of what I should think in order to be a good Christian.

And I should accept Watergate felon Chuck Colson as an authority on morality because.......????

It is thanks to the FORGIVENESS of the Christian Church that Mr. Colson was able to find another way of making a living after his previous debacle.

All these "morality czars" like Colson and Bennett sure are judgemental, given their OWN proclivity for sinning. Perhaps they should be teaching the Sermon on the Mount instead.

Yeah, Chuck, damn those modern relativists. If everyone just stuck to the letter of the Bible you'd still be allowed to own slaves! Being denied your full Christian right to oppress those lesser than you must truly be a burden.

Great! Let's bring back slavery, take take away full citizenship from women and allow fathers to beat their children to death. Once these biblical values are restored, ridding ourselves of democracy and tolerance should be a breeze.

Thank you Lord for letting Chuck Colson transform himself from petty burglar to "religious leader."

For those of you not on intimate terms with changes in Lutheran Church policy, here is the news: At it's annual assembly in August, representatives of the 4 million-member Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) voted, 538 to 431, to approve a resolution that "encouraged the ELCA's synods, bishops and presiding bishop to 'refrain from or demonstrate restraint in disciplining' people and congregations who call qualified leaders on the professional rosters of the ELCA 'who are in a mutual, chaste and faithful, committed, same-gender relationship.'
"The assembly also stated that the same restraint should apply to the professional leaders who are on the official rosters and are in committed same-gender relationships. The proposal was adopted by the assembly as a substitute for a recommendation of the Memorials Committee."

While the topic is a hot one, this is clearly the church version of Inside Baseball. The statement "encourages" action, a pretty weak move. Mr. Colson is over the moon in his interpretation that this is "ignorning biblical moral standards."
I suppose Colson, whose ministry is to people punished by society, is saying that he's more than ready and willing to throw the first stone.

Judge Sirica and Archibald Cox (peace be upon them) would likely argue that Mr. Colson is clearly not a person without sin.

In a larger context however, the points up the futility and irrationality of making "biblical correctness" the sole foundation of one's argument against the excesses of human behavior.

In addition to the Bible, you've got to use your reason, man.

In his weak post, Colson retreats into a 2,000-year old Christian tradition: Pointing to your Christian brother and accusing him of not being a good Christian.

Since we're talking about Lutherans, Mr. Colson's way of arguing would allow a perfect stranger -- such as myself -- to wander onto this stage and point to them all, Colson, Lutherans, Martin Luther and the rest, and say you're all not true Christians. You lost that when you left the True Fellowship of the Catholic Church.

But I wouldn't do that. It wouldn't be a Christian thing to do.

...and also, there is the famous quote "Father forgive them for they know now what they do" that Jesus said of his executioners, which goes right in one Christian ear and then out the other Christian ear...

It's a problem when religious leaders such as Chuck Colson replace societal and personal moral "standards" with Biblical values.

His argument may be moral "truth", but who could be so arrogant as to claim authority on it?

I would like to pose a question: Did Jesus say, "Come follow christianity" or did He say, "Come follow Me."? Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Of all things to get 'distressed' about in this world a little more fairness and perspective seems an awful funny thing to get 'distressed' about.

Certainly, if I believed in the Bible, I wouldn't want to participate in a church that claimed it must mean something that's clearly *wrong.*

All churches get creative about what parts of that book to 'take literally' and what they don't... Like the parts about wealth, about not praying in public, and about giving all you own to the poor, which kind of stick out in my mind, right off hand.

A teeny-weeny step in the right direction. The Church should be promoting gay marriage.

A teeny-weeny step in the right direction. The Church should be promoting gay marriage

Corrupt, crooked, mean-spirited bigotry, in the malevolent disguise of Jesus's love.