US Withdrawal Morally Unacceptable Until Iraq Stable

I cannot believe the hollow rhetoric and misuse of historical quotes from Charles Colson in light of the facts both past and present! This was a baseless intervention by the present adminitration that has caused immense human suffering and no political spin and twisted nationalistic theology from evangelical advocates will tell other wise.

Mr Colson, it's worries me that in your judgement you contributed to this chaos that has destroyed many innocent lives both Iraqis and Americans. You had the bad judgement before the war and I wonder where your commitment stands. Is it with God or with America. Considering the fact that God wants these Iraqis to know Jesus Christ. Should these innocent people be killed for America's glory. I think the Christian thing to do is to repent of this gravious and ungodly thing you did to encourage the president to go to war. I am very dissappointed in you and the other Christian leaders who encouraged the president to go to war.

Am I miss something here? Mr. Colson, based on false information, declared the last war 'just' and help dupe millions of Americans into supporting what was and is an unjust war based on lies. Now he is again allowed to interpret 'just war theories' for the public. Do the hundreds of thousands of innocent lives lost in Iraq get to speak? When does a messenger who has has so tragically misled people become discredited.

While I agree that their is a moral obligation to the iraqi people, I disagree that it rests on the American people. Christians in American and elsewhere should rise up and do whatever is neccessary to fulfill that obligation be it humanitarian or otherwise. If military action is as necessary as the hawks feel it will be after withdraw, charities can also fund protection services, similar to Ross Perot's handling of the kidnapped employees.

Remember to call your congress(wo)men, senators to DEFUND THE IRAQ WAR AND DEFUND ISRAEL, THE SOURCE OF PAST(since 1947), CURRENT(Iraq war, Afghanistan war, and the War on Terror), AND FUTURE WARS(Wars with Iran and Syria and beyond--two carrier battle groups in the Persian Gulf to "pressure" Iran) IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

Call REPEATEDLY and DAILY. It bugs the hell out of them and it works.

i couldn't agree with you more mr. colson. as for the rest of these people, there are none so blind as those who refuse to see.

To Clay Workman,
You say Bush did right to take our fight against Al-Quada to an uninvolved country? I don't know how you would feel if 2 alien groups started laying waste to your home, your country, your friends, your family, but I know how I would feel.

Do you have no sense of fairness? Shame, sir! You cannot use self-defense as a justification in this case, sir.

It seems those that post don't have much of an argument against what Mr. Colson wrote. What keeps coming up is they don't like Bush, don't understand the situation, haven't looked into what has been found in Iraq, and that we are fighting terrorists there, rather than here. The point is, we cannot give up. The question of a just war was not brushed aside, it was answered. Our ancestors who fought in previous wars of these United States, I think, would be ashamed of the public sentiment to give up against those that have stated plainly that they want to annihilate us. John Adams when referring to the barbary pirates (muslim terrorists)said if we decide to fight them we must fight endeavor to fight them forever. Do you think he would be for giving up now? Thomas Jefferson used the navy that Adams built to defeat them. It is time to defeat them again, regardless of whether they are in Iraq. Better to fight them there than here.

TOO MANY DOTS....TOO COMPLEX !!

"WAR" IS ALWAYS A DETERRENT FROM WHAT WE
SHOULD FOCUS ON: "ORGANIZED CRIME "!!

Politics and organized crime and corporate culture all go hand in hand – anything that produces profits is of interest to politicians. The last in line for government help are “the average people” even thought they are the backbone of all three group’s profits.

To several of us, the continued conflict between Israel
and Palestine, does have a great deal to do with all
that is going on in the entire Middle East.

When it comes to any sence of fairness in dealing
with the Present US administration, anyone can look
at our total support for Israel and see we have no
sence of fair dealings.

You look at Lebanon, Egypt, Jordan, Iran, Syria,Iraq
and UN resolutions. As an Arab nation, how would
you find any TRUST in negotations with the USA,
looking at the history of 60 years of blind support
for ONLY Israel.

IF the USA would be "FAIR" in looking at both sides
of the coin. We just might start regaining some of
our own standing in the WORLD arena.

We want to see Israel to continue to be, to be secure, to be at PEACE. HOW-EVER, if we continue with such
policy it is leading to destruction for Israel's security
in the long run.

Horrific acts of violence and deadly attacks on innocent people, carried out by the Israeli military.
In defiance of the American people's wishes,and the World in general, when push comes to shove the U.S. government manages to support a hostile Jewish State. The message is also delivered from the pulpit with vigor, When in reality Israel is against christianity.Worse yet, through their greed for money, we have sold or gifted this hostile nation, (Nuclear, Biological and Chemical) weapons with the missiles to deliver them. These weapons now threaten the world.

The total Iraqi people are dismayed, will not come together, because none of the three sectarian groups have what they would consider a binding relationship with the USA. They realize we have Israel's interest at heart with any dealings there. They all now see us as occupying their nation, as Israelis to Palestine. They think or most likely know, that we are there for Israeli interest, more than our own or for Iraq's true interest.At this juncture we the American people realize exactly the same scenario. Just look at the agenda, & rethoric for the last six years.

Look how the USA has equipped Israeli military better than our own reserve & national guard units.

NO matter what rethoric our government states,the facts are before us all , IF you take the time to research it.

FOREIGN POLICY SHOULD BE BASED ON GOOD LOGIC AND JUDGEMENT, NOT FAITH BASED !!

To be "MORE-CLEAR" how about a little Integrity and Ethics..

NO PEACE IN PALESTINE, NO PEACE IN THE WORLD:

British Prime Minister Tony Blair realizes there is no hope in defeating "Forces of Extremism" with out

resolving the Palestinian--Israeli conflict.The disastrous Iraqi quadmire is connected with Palestinian issues.

We have been saying for years that Palestine-Israeli conflict is the root cause of instability, turbulence, and violence in the Middle East and throughout much of the Muslim world.

We know and George Bush knows all too well that the American occupation of Iraq was conceived in Israel , carried out for Israel ’s sake and is now maintained more or less under pressure by pro-Israeli pressure groups in the United States .
Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, warned Bush during his recent visit to Washington against pulling out of Iraq ?

The "FAILURE" of JFK & RFK"S war on organized crime
and drugs. It all ended with their assassinations,then
escalation of the Viet Nam war as a deterrent.
Now more of the DOTS are connected, right back to
the Kennedy assassinations, Meyer Lanski, Las Vegas
and more. Don 't forget the gain in Media Control and
the development of AIPAC in American government,
a Foreign Agent.
The most important key to Criminal Empire America: It’s the extensiveness of the people that can be called upon, each to do his or her small part in a complex operation, that gives the super braintrust operators of the most tremendous rackets in the world (like rigging the U.S. presidency) their power and this tiny group and even single individual has doubled or tripled their octopus tentacles.
We are headed for bigger problems, check out the
organized crime organizations in Mexico, Canada,
and of course the USA. (Now a North America strong hold)
Look at the Russian(Jewish) & China organizations
.....Now connect the dots dirrectly to AIPAC,
ISRAEL, and Mossad (The enforcers) assassinators.
We certainly are up against it.
We can call it (Zionist organized crime).
All forms of racketeering from Drugs, Gambling,
Chain economy, World Trade, and saddly the collection
plates in their worshipped tax free buildings and holdings.
Now, go back to Denial. It is to late to open your eyes
anyhow...................too many dots, too complex..

How many people remember Saddam Hussien telling his government that he had weapons of mass destruction and then later they found out that he didn't have any at all. Saddam Hussein deceived his government and the world about his weapons. If He didn't have any, why did he say that he did?

Mr. Colson:
No war is a just war, and the war on Iraq was a religious war. Religious wars by nature are based on a fundamentalist reading of religious teachings and scripture. Religious readings, left or right, have the potential of unforeseen disasters. If by the belief of any of the main Middle Eastern religions human beings are the children of God, or the representative (khalifah) of The God, or image of The God on earth, then their collective thought should carry the weight of the word of The God. If The God created everything through evolution, then the evolution of human being towards a God-like creature must also be evolutionary. If this is acceptable, then collective achievements of human being must be respected as The Gods words. If so secular wisdom should always be preferred over the one based on ideology.

Actions based on any single ideology, religious or otherwise, have not served the best interest of human beings at any time. Let us walk through the history of recent ideological wars. We can leave out the obvious extremes like the World War II and Vietnam War. Let us start with the occupation of Afghanistan by the Soviet Union and the response of United States under President Carter, a well-respected democrat, a Christian Evangelist, and according to Bill Press, a speechwriter of President Clinton, of the Christian left.

Although most people including myself, have no doubt about the good intentions of President Carter, yet the result of his policy of creating an Islamic Green-Belt (the strategy of Zbigniew Brzezinski, the National Security Adviser of President Carter) around the Soviet Union, was the creation of a number of strongly fundamentalist states plus an international network of horror, named after Islam. This was the result of a strategic(??!) planning based on ideology, the blow back of which was 9/11.

The next ideological planner comes from Christian right surrounded by NeoCons and the Israeli lobby group. The result of this is Afghanistan, Iraq, and what may come next. A point of pride of President Bush is that he had met with the former Israeli Prime minister 17 times and not with representative of Palestinians even once. He brought Iran among the axes of evil, while Iran had helped him to succeed initially in Afghanistan. Iranians elected Ahmadinejad, as an antidote for Bush.

Extremism breeds extremism. If America claims to be “The Only Superpower”, then she better act like a superpower not a warlord. A superpower cannot disobey the UN and stage a “preemptive” war over a nation half of the world away from her territories and expect the others to respect either her or the United Nation in which she has the veto power. The US administration has demonstrated that the “New World Order” is nothing but a “Broken Order”, courtesy of a Born Again Christian and his ideological allies.

A new order is needed based on the collective wisdom of human beings not from “higher father”. Religious governments have shown to be prone to prejudice and inflexibility. You cannot negotiate for a land that is a “God-Given” to a nation, nor you can negotiate for the life of a man or a woman who is declared blasphemous by a fatwa.

Garry Holmberg,

I agree with ALL of your points and your sentiment, but to merely blame Bush for the current mess in Iraq would be like blaming the bear for mauling while ignoring the handler who TRAINED the bear to maul. The handler of course is AIPAC. If you are wondering what has happened to the American decency of old, that began to disappear in the late sixties as AIPAC began to exert its influence in America, the time of the 1967 Arab-Israeli Six Day War and seriously so from the Reagan era.

As mentioned previously, Professors Walt and Mearsheimer of Harvard and U of Chicago has published a new book, "The Israel Lobby and the U.S. Foreign Policy"(2006) available for free in pdf working paper version at cnionline.org under New Study of Israel Lobby. It's 81 pages long, but half of it is bibliography.

Yes, Bush was an eager political bear who saw the neocons as a useful ally, placing them into positions of high power as never before. Former Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, now president of World Bank, is considered the architect of the Iraq War for instance. Yet Wolfowitz is merely one of many agents of AIPAC in government albeit a high profile one.

AIPAC has turned into a juggernaut of sorts seemingly crushing or threatening to cruch anyone or anything that stands in its way with no remorse and often with much glee. Of course, AIPAC is a house of cards. Once people realize that its power comes from disinformation, it will scatter like so many cockroaches in the light of truth. As a conservative evangelical Christian and a FORMER neocon, I am an optimist as conservatives often are.

I am beginning to be quite disappointed with current evangelical leaders however. I could care less about Pastor Ted Haggard(head of National Evangelical Association accused of having trysts with a gay masseuse); what happened with him affects him and his church and I guess embarrassment to some Christians. Christians are not saints, just forgiven sinners. But having orthodox Jews as bedfellows is a serious problem that not only affects Christians, but the world at large, because America is 40% evangelical.

Part of the problem is the anti-intellectual tendency of the Pentecostal movement which swept through the U.S. Churches and is just beginning to wane. It is the Pentecostal idea to believe in the necessity of the state of Israel for the second coming of Christ. This is NEW and STRANGE theology in the history of Christianity not espoused by the early church father nor the Protestant Reformers.

Being an optimist, I am seeing signs of a quiet revolution in American evangelicalism. The nation's largest flagship evangelical seminary, the Southern Baptist Seminary has a faculty that is 96% Reformed(Calvinist) since 1993 ("Young, Restless, Reformed" christianitytoday.com 9/22/06). Reformed theology DOES NOT see the laughable necessity of the state of Israel for the second coming of Christ, a tenet of Pentecostalism Israel boosters were more than eager to harness and encourage through careful liasons. Southern Baptist Convention's International Missions Board has a year ago barred its missionary candidates from teaching and promoting "speaking in tongues" or glossolalia, one of the hallmarks of Pentecostalism ("Tongues Tied" christianitytoday.com 2/1/06). Banning glossolalia is not important in and of itself, but it shows the Reformed movement's ascendant influence and reach. Other than the manic support for the state of Israel, I have no other bones to pick with the Pentecostal Movement. People are free to worship God and live for Christ as they see fit.

Sorry to bore non-Christians with the inner working of the church, but the belly of the American evangelical church is undergoing reconstruction. Granted, many Reformed evangelicals are neoconservatives. They are under the same influence of the AIPAC censored U.S. media as the rest of America. Plus, Christians are subject to heavy propagandizing by the pro-Israel Jewish hardliners like the conservative Jewish radio talk show host Dennis Prager. And just notice how many pro-Israel Christian TV shows there are. As a result, Israel is seen as good friend and that its national interests are identical to America's. Zionists among the Jewish community has long ago recognized the importance of the evangelical Christian support for its cause.

However, it only took the raining down of cluster bombs in Lebanon last August, a country 40% Christian with a democratically elected pro-West, pro-American government killing over a thousand civilians and killing and maiming people every day since the war “ended”, and a chance viewing of CSPAN presentation of Walt and Mearsheimer's Israel Lobby book to make me a FORMER neocon. I am hoping I am not the only evangelical who has opened his eyes to the reality of AIPAC. I am doing my best to make sure that is not the case. This is certainly an easy case to make to fellow evangelical Christians who are beginning to question the justification and value of the Iraq War and beginning to have doubts about the evangelical leadership who have been asleep at the helm.

Remember to call your congress(wo)men, senators to DEFUND THE IRAQ WAR AND DEFUND ISRAEL, THE SOURCE OF PAST, CURRENT, AND FUTURE WARS IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

I simply don't have time to explain to you all the reasons why you are wrong, many others have already done that in extensive detail.

Sadly, if you really believe what you wrote, you had best look inward and ask yourself some very tough questions about your motivations, because it certainly was not to present a well informed and objective assessment of the issues surrounding the Iraq war.

A war which regardless of platitudes was unnecessary and will be the biggest debacle in US history--there is simply no way at this point to make this very bad decision right.

To make matters far worse the course of this war has been littered with unconstitutional actions by the President and the Vice President; prisoner abuses were perpetrated by Americans on detainees in a manner that is outlawed by the Geneva Convention; and a President and Republican Congress nearly passed a law invalidating the Geneva Convention just to cite two.

These are not the American values I was raised on by parents, uncles, and aunts who survived WWII. These are not the American values that root for the underdog, where actions speak louder than words, and where a man's word is his bond. No, this President and his Vice President do not represent men of their word to the Amercian people and they certainly are not seeking to spread democracy, for if they are they are really bad at it.

No, I am sorry, you simply could not be more wrong about the Iraq war, and even worse you apparently are completely oblivious to all the unAmerican and unconstitutional acts that have been committed by this President and his administration. Even now when more than 70% of the American people want the President to bring the troops home he has decided again that we should send more. The President was handed a report that outlined how to best proceed at this point and he has chosen to ignore it and the American people. I hate to say it but this President may become more infamous than Nixon, and I never thought I would ever see that kind of Presdential abuse and deceit against the American people again in my lifetime.

I believe this point in history will be analyzed for decades to determine how a President gone so astray could get away with it. Where were the checks and balances?

Chucky boy you are so lost that I doubt that you can be found. How can a so called Christian believe any form of killing could be just? I take it back. The Iraq war was just, just ridiculous, just unchristian, just unjustified, and just deadly for women and children. Are you the same Chuck that went to jail for breaking the law during the Nixon administration? Why did they not just keep you in there? Just remember a few things Chucky. Just remember that God commanded us not to kill. Just remember that God commanded you to treat your neighbor as you would treat yourself. Just remember that God commanded you to place no God before him. God did not give Moses a wish list, God sent commands. Just remember that America is not a greater God then our precious leader. And finally Chucky boy remember the punishment for guys just like you who know better and choose to ignore the word of God.

Posted on January 12, 2007 20:26

>>Warp10:

Why do CONSERVATIVE Christians have a heart of stone for the massive suffering and devastation done to Iraq... not to mention the support for Bush's torture policies which have caught up a number of innocents in your nets.

Because they are nothing more than ANTI-CHRISTIANS. They believe in the barbarian ancient mythologies of the old testament, which in their twisted minds justifies all kinds of violence against outsiders. They don't give a d**** s**t about the preachings of Jesus.

IOM IR ET GL

Couldn't the Post find anyone who could argue the point in a more logical way? "Chuck" even gets the basics all wrong. What happens in Iraq has little to do with Israel vis a vis Iran. The United States presence in Iraq, if anything, allows Iran to develop nuclear weapons much faster than it otherwise would have, because the United States can not offer any credible conventional detterence while we are bogged down in Baghdad. Furthermore, Iran's conventional millitary is no match for Israel, which has numerous nuclear weapons of its own if its existence is ever truly put into question...

As for the point about a responisbility to the Iraqi people... Maybe we do have a responsibility in general... but to which ones, the shia who are busy slaughtering and revenging themselves against the sunnis, or the sunnis that are blowing themselves up left and right to kill Shia? When the vast majority has choosen sides and is in effect complicit in the violence, no side is really worth dying for. After all, remember the bible story of sodom, God didn't try to fix Sodom for Lot. He helped him get out and only then if no one looked back. We showed the Iraqis the way, we don't have to help them walk it.

"Chuck" is kind of like a Toddler blurting out the random thoughts of an immature mind, content to thump his bible pretending it is a drum, extolling highly questionable passages of the bible to support the aftermath of a war no true christian would have supported to begin with... After all, anyone can quote verse. "Thou shall not kill," and "Turn the other cheek"... are the ones I would have choosen and are far more relevant to the current situation then the cursing of enemies... But I would like to end with my favorite bit of scripture which doubles as advice for the Post and "Chuck": "give Unto Ceasar that which is Caesar's"...The founding fathers in their infinite wisdom decided to keep religion and politics seperate for a very good reason. Religion has a way of giving false legitamacy and weight to otherwise rediculous people.

Is this for real? I mean honestly, Augustinian and Thomas More? The fact that there were no WMD made it and no real threat whatsoever "a close call"??

What's happening to you America? You fought the Nazis, won the cold war, and now you're afraid of your own shadow. Saddam was no threat, Al-Qaeda is not threatening civilization. What happened to "We have nothing to fear but fear itself" and "Our problems are man made, therefore they can be solved by man"? Now you're whipped into a frenzy of xenophobia and religious self righteousness by "Chuck" quoting 10th century concepts of justice, musing about the morality of continuing an unjust war because it will make America look bad (oh, and Israel will be destroyed as well).

Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?

Mr.Colson,

When someone makes a reasonable argument, backed by defensible facts or even well thought out opinions, it justifies a thorough response. Your article doesn't qualify, but somehow I cannot help from making a few comments.

If you are for continuing this war, have the intellectual honesty to just say it is what you believe and do not hide behind a theory as your "formulation". Additionally, have the guts to recognize the impact of your position on the commitments between OUR government and OUR citizens. If this is such an important struggle, suggest the necessary commitments we as a country will need to make, such as increased taxes, the potential for significant expansion of our military through a draft, the risk that in order to be successful in the end we will have to aggressively convert to an economy that is not reliant on oil.

If your suggestion were simply that of "doubling down" that would be one thing. Because of the situation we are now in, we are unfortunately left with some sort of withdrawl plan or a MASSIVE commitment to war. What is likely to happen is the president's cowardly sending of insufficient troops while the president weighs political considerations.

miss information:

repent (by your definition) or go to hell?
we're already in hell. proof? having to share intellecual space with idiots like you.

i, for one, detest the pathetically unconditional support for Israel my country is being forced to provide. i am equally sick of the "moral"-fascist religious right.

there are still free thinkers here in the US. we WILL rise up, and woe unto the lunatic fringe when we do. hopefully, this will be sooner rather than later, for MY America, and that of the Framers, is in dire need of rescue.

Mr. Colson, I could not disagree with your arguments more.
1.) This war was not about the Iraqi people, nor did they ask us to invade. This war was based on lies, deceit and arrogance.
2.) This war was about Oil, Israel and partisian ideology, which had absolutely nothing to do with terrorism, 9/11, WMD's or humanitarism.
3.) There is nothing MORAL about this war and Bush's continuance of violence against innocent men, women and children.

Vulcan_7:, wow! You really can be pretty harsh can you not? I know that you are an attenuated product of your own environment, and that they have probed your mind with false pretenses and psych-ops, the 4 year-old for example, but they know nothing of your real struggle against Lucifer at Mount Olive that very day. No, that truth is beyond their eyes and machinations. Rest and be still for now....I do believe that God Loves you.

Where's my gun?

Mr. Colson,

While I do appreciate your sentiments and I believe you are correct in that we can't leave Iraq in total chaos, as it would further diminish America's credibility (which the Bush administration has effectively destroyed,) I can't accept our continuing shaky occupation as a moral imperative. Foreign policy should be based on pragmatism first and morals second.

The whole war, illegal as it is, has been bungled from the start from an incompetent administration that failed to properly occupy either Afganistan or Iraq. For God's sake, the ancient Romans knew how to do it, and they didn't have guns. How did we get it so wrong? (Somone should have given Rumsfeld a copy of Machiavelli's "The Prince" before he sent our troops charging into Iraq under false pretenses.)

So, while I agree we just can't leave now, we should do so for pragmatic reasons (stabilize the middle east, keep Iran in check, extract the oil that the American people are owed for this fiasco,) not moral reasons.

The only pragmatic thing to do, besides total and brutal occupation, is find a political solution, first by getting rid of the useless Nuri al-Maliki.

The moral thing to do is prosecute the liars in the White House who dragged the world into this mess.

How many hands we need in Iraq now?
If one our soldier handed two Iraqi people to lead them to security, no soldier had free hand to fight our enemey; if one soldier handed one civil person and fought by another hand, the free handed Iraqi might turn to be our ememey with the chance of exact number of our hurts.

Last one. Not wanting to spam. Probably Egypt, Syria, Arabia Saudi and Iran were more involved in a regional solution leaving them alone. Arab vs. Persian and Sunni vs. Shiite conflicts are deeply present there, of course. But I see little probabilities of a large scale conflict while the neccesary people was leading there. The real danger was an unconcious 'democracy push' opening new ways to extremism.

The Iraqi conflict was only Iraqi (muslim better) being the USA out of Iraq. It was clearly visible for fellows and foe.

WWII was near a perfect 'just war'. It is probably the last such a war until now.

Wouldn't getting OUT of Iraq give Al Qaeda one LESS thing to fight about??? Or, do you think they will be like the USA after WWII in thinking they can rule the world??

Excuse me, sir:

Agustinian notions of 'just war'. 'Last step' like an enough objective concept not meaning the subjective limits of any person able to make a war. Just war implies objectivity enough. Just what the war on Iraq is not showing.

Only among the miserable cretins known as Americans will you find such a thing as a pro-war christian.

This guy has no right to tell us anything about morals. He aint got any. Must think he is born again. You can run, and you can hide, but you are who you. Still and evil genius.

I fear that if the United States and Israel keep going down this road...all by themslves..that we may not have an Israel in 40 years..I also fear that if the US or Israel attacks Iran, that Iran will retaliate and kill thousands of American Jews whom call Tel-Aviv home..further, Iran will definitely fight back and destroy as much of the Oil as possible in the Middle East creating a new Oil crisis and crashing the US economy..the idea that the US can stop that is nutz!..Iran is not the backwater you all believe..it is not Iraq and it's population and land size is 3 times that of Iraq and much more educated..further, you have an additional 2 or 3 million Iranians living all over the world..They will not be happy watching their countrymen die..Remember, the bombings in London were over the Iraq War - not Al-Qaida!..Frankly, AlQaida is just a tiny part of the war...we need some educated brains in the White House and Please for crying out loud.... Hire some Leaders who did not flunk out of college and did better than a C- average...and whom do not lie about what they are reading all the time.. They should have read these books in college...Bush knows less about the Middle East than does my 85 year old mother. She told me what the failures would be back in the Fall of 2003..So far, she has been right on the money..Speaking of money, what happened to all the Billions given to Haliburton with no bid contracts?..Can't wait for those Congressional hearings..It seems a lot of people made a lot of money from this war and then got a huge tax break on top of that..So far the biggest winners in this war are..Exxon, Shell, BP, Chevron, A Oil Co.,B Oil Co., C Oil Co., D Oil Co.. No body got richer than they and their top Oil Company executives..$400 million retirement packages while they lay off the workers who kids are fighting in Mr Bush's and Mr. Cheney's War...It was all over Oil..and the Israeli's might yet become its victim....Meanwhile, the United States has our great Middle Eastern Democracies to help us..Oh that's right!!..all of our allies are either Kings, Dictators, Generals, Grand Muffti's, Seiks, Emir's not an elected one among them..Making a foolish mockery about spreading democracy..I see Condi lost her democracy voice again on this latest pathetic, almost laughable road show.. As for Mr. Colson..He was wrong during the Nixon administration and he is still wrong.. What did I just say about failed Leaders..and in this case a former felon...He has chosen the easiest way out..to preach to a bunch of captives many willing to do or say anything to get out earlier..To be honest..I think Mr. Colson is right where he belongs..preaching to his criminals..

Known within the Nixon administration as the "evil genius," special counsel Charles W. Colson served seven months in prison in 1974 after pleading guilty to obstruction of justice in the Watergate-related Daniel Ellsberg case. Colson's more notorious ideas, according to some reports, included spreading false information about Ellsberg and firebombing the Brookings Institution. He was also indicted for his role in the Watergate cover-up

JAIL BIRD

What do you know about morals????

This paragraph is just pure lunacy:

As we consider the Christian perspective on our present dilemma, we are compelled to weigh heavily the fate of Israel. Christians have a great respect for the people of the old covenant, and are constantly reminded of God’s words to the Jews in His covenant with Abraham, "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse." (Genesis 12:3).

To make policy on the basis of a 5000 year old text makes no sense whatsoever. Should we base our policy toward modern Greece on the Iliad?

This is exactly why the founders were so wise to create a system of government that does not concern itself with the ideas of any given religion.

Your read this and it's easy to see why Mr. Colson never saw the harm to the constitution in Watergate.

B Gone, I don't pop up in these forums too often, but its already tiring to read the same thing from the same person over and over and over, regardless of the subject introduced. The silly hoaxbuster site, run not by an objective observer but by a person with an obvious agenda, full of stuff that even I can see if factually incorrect and bluffery even without much training at all, doesn't need to be metioned for the umpteenth time. Let the guy who runs it have a public debate with some knowledagbe types and we'll see what happens. His documentation on Amenophis (1800 BC) I am sure is one thousandth or less than the documents of scripture, which are documented far older than his web site cares to admit. How about instead we address the subject du jour, (this is written to the flamethrowers out there, not the few who are actually attempting dialogue) instead of tossing fireballs at Mr Colson? I don't agree with what he did in the 1970s, either. He deserved jail, and he went. Since then he's won a pile of humanitarian awards, better than me or a bunch of other people. The question of the day isn't whether Chuck Colson is a jerk, it's whether we have a more moral case to stay in Iraq or leave. Were we right to leave Korea? My Korean college roommate didn't think so, and my current Korean friends pity the plight of the people of North Korea today. Seems like there are parallels. Mr. Colson pointed out the parallels with the carving up of eastern Europe after WWII. These are relevant. Yes, pulling out would save innocent lives of US soliders. But what would happen in the vacuum between the three or more factions? Cayambe made a few suggestions, but I am not qualified to know if they would work. But dialogue on these particulars would be better than screaming at each other, no?

We are doing as we preach. At least, much more than anyone is willing to give us credit for. But that is the point, we have never preached that all Christians should go to Iraq, but rather, our nation is fully authorized to wage "just" war. We preach that faulty though it was, the intel showed that Sadam was an immediate threat in violation of UN resolutions. Once we discovered there were no weapons to discover, we preached it was wrong to pull out and leave anarchy. Watch for nuance and you might surprise yourself with the profound consistency of word and deed. Ignore the nuance and...well...that would be ignorant wouldn't it.

If you feel so strongly about this you should --without delay-- go to Iraq and stay there until the problem is solved. This applies to all the like-minded so called Christians who follow your advice. Do as you preach.

Be careful what you wish for. Can't accept 700 American GIs killed each year ? Impeach Bush and get Cheney. Impeach Cheney ? get Pelosi or worst Cheney's new VP. Withdraw from Iraq ? get Al Qieda bases in Anbar. Withdraw from Iraq ? maybe massive civil war that kills far more then 34,000 Iraqi killed in 2006 (UN estimate) Maybe a half-a-million dead or more ? Withdraw and get maybe four hostile mini-States ? Increased Saudi funding of Sunni militants ? Iranian or Turkish invasion ? President Muqtada al-Sadr ? Withdraw and Israel nukes Iran ? Withdraw and maybe Britian and Canada will find little reason to stay in Afghanistan ? Withdraw from Iraq and we will all become Spanish surrender monkeys... until of course... a victorious and strengthened terrorist network (Al Qieda ? Hizzbolah ? ) delivers what it has long promised the Great Satan... that Shia nuke to New York harbor. Be careful what you wish for.

Jimmy, read your Bible again. It does not say, thou shalt not kill, but rather, thou shalt not commit murder. Capital punishment is considered righteous in the Bible. It was also righteous for God to command the Israelites to completely annihilate the Canaanites who were consistently involved with child/human sacrifice. It was also righteous for God to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. If we today were to be aware of a society that was like either of those, which we are not (Gibson's Apocalypto comes close) we would be appalled. Both of those societies made Hitler's Germany and Mao's China look good. Furthermore, the reason why the Bible outlaws slavery among jews was because they were to be a holy nation. He was teaching the world what holiness would look like. The Bible of course records the fact that they never really measured up to that holiness. Slavery arises from sin. Sin enslaves all of us. To the extent that we are sinful, we find ourselves enslaved by others. Which is the point of slavery in the Bible: The Israelites were to live holy and as such not be enslaved. However, if you read carefully (watch for nuance) you will note that God assured the Israelites that if they rejected His commands they too would be enslaved. As history bears out, God was right about this. The Israelites sinned and rejected God and they became slaves in Babylon and Assyria. It is also true about any Christian nation, when they sin, they will be enslaved by their enemies. Sin enslaves. We could set the whole world free and give them civil rights but if we choose to sin we will still be enslaved. When the New TEstament told slaves to stay in the condition they found themselves, it was teaching them to live free from sin, knowing that if they chose righteousness, the slavery would eventually fall away. This is exactly the struggle we see in Iraq, we might set them free, but are they able or interested in keeping that freedom? Sin is an idea that deserves our full attention. It enslaves all of us. It destroys human society. It is found in Jewish nations, Christian nations, Islamic nations and atheistic nations. AS a result we all find ourselves drowning in a moral debt to sin. We fight over whether George Bush should have done better or whether Stalin was just misunderstood or whether the UN can bring peace to the world. In fact, we fight because we all know that neither you nor I have what it takes to bring change. My influence is limited by my own moral failures. So is yours. So is George Bush' and Sadam's. It's part of the reason why we are all so cynical these days. We know that all the promises that are made by humans are fluff. They are arrogant. Christians promise that God alone can bring change through Jesus Christ. However, they NEVER promise that Christians will bring peace on earth. They only believe that can happen through a sovereign act of God through Jesus' return. On the other hand, humanists and atheists would like you and I to think that we can change the world through our own efforts through the UN. Even though the UN consistently shows as much fraud as any human leadership institution throughout history. So, who is full of greater naivete' the Christian's hope in a returning Messiah or the Humanist's hope in mankind's evolutionary self transformation? I sense a cynical revulsion toward believing the promises of more humans. AT the least, we must all agree that humanity does not have it in us to make the necessary changes. Who has the moral authority that we should trust them? There is no one with that kind of moral authority. Certainly, not you and I.

What part of "Thou shalt not kill" does this christian minster not understans. How can any human being defend the APARTHEID STATE OF israel.
He pretends to be compasionate about iraqi civilians - over 600 thousand of them killed -.
What a disgrace, you make any human being sick.

It's always so refreshing to get a lesson in moral instruction from one of Richard Nixon's main hatchet men. You say time has passed and you're not the same weasel you were 30-odd years ago, Charles? Tell that to the countless people who still suffer from the harm inflicted by you and your slimy gang of liars and thieves.

Jacob:
I watched your film. Thanks for clearing things up at the nitty gritty detail level. And giving just cause to the question posed to the panel which was, ah, just a minute I'll think of it, ah, yeah! That's it. Just cause.

I take it you're not in favor, (film can be taken more than one way) of a sudden or soon end to the world. One of the primary things that must happen for the world to have a propper ending if for the Jews to return to their homeland. Everybody knows that. It's not altogther clear they have to stay there for the world to end but looks to me like the righteous think so trumping all other thoughts while the "enemies of Israel" are planning to save the world by getting rid of them altogether. Without Jews in Judah the world will have to keep on spinning round.

There's not much chance in the short run but maybe if folks understood that the Bible, that's the neo con's Bible, where they get their divine guidance, if it was known to be a hoax then what, could we actually settle the mid east mess and stop the world from ending all at the same time?

The Bible is a proved hoax, http://www.hoax-buster.org has the proof but then people must be able to look at pictures, somewhat of a chore for neo cons and others too. The first part of the question is answered but then there is the matter of people finding out. However will people find out the Bible is a hoax, at church?

What you're saying is unacceptable for one simple reason, Mr. Colson - it's exactly what was said about Vietnam. Bush's policy has exactly the same flaw - it underestimated the ability of the native people to rebuild.

Sure the country is in a state of violence. It's going to be now. And that's our fault. Sure the present government isn't able to govern. Neither was the Vietnamese gov we left behind. That was our fault, too. And yes, what is happening is going to affect the neighbors. How could it not?

Get out. Help them rebuild WHEN THEY ASK. But let the Iraqi people have their own country back.

Stop repeating the mistake of Vietnam.

Al-Quada was never in Iraq until we went there. Take care of OUR security. Do what you said you were going to do - protect us from al-Quada. Where are al-Quada's top leaders?

Let Israel take care of itself. It's very good at self-defense. It's never lost a war. They won't let their selves be destroyed. They need to grow up anyway. We are not their daddy. If they can't stand on their own feet, maybe they don't deserve to exist. Stop using a 7000 yr old story to justify their existence. Think where everybody would be if we all did that.

Listen all Christians, Jews, Muslims, and Non-theists who are against this war and against its cause, Israel and its outpost here in the U.S., AIPAC(American Israel Public Affairs Committee).

It is time for us to join together as ONE, gather our resources and strengths. It is NOT ENOUGH to be just against this war. If we do not take care of its source, AIPAC, we will be defunding wars till the kingdom come(or not come for some folks).

For those of you who are new to this AIPAC thing, like I was till last August, read Walt and Mearsheimer's The Israel Lobby(2006). Free pdf working paper version of their book is available at cnionline.org under New Study of Israel Lobby. Stephen Walt is Academic Dean and Professor of International Affairs at the John F. Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University and John Mearsheimer, a West Point graduate and a 5 year veteran of Air Force, is a Professor of Political Science and the co-director of the Program on International Security Policy at the University of Chicago, where he is an authority on security affairs and international politics.

For those of you who hate to read and prefer to watch,

The Neocon Agenda
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4MdyJDnSoI
10min long, explains the political situation

Google Video -- "Peace, Propaganda & The Promised Land". 1hr 20min long, Israel lobby's control of U.S. media. Viewed over 895,000 times.

Join a good organization. I have become a member of the Council for the National Interest, cnionline.org since last August when Israelis dumped THOUSANDS of cluster bombs, each containing 600 bomblets, each 155mm in diameter, against civilians in Lebanon, second time since 1982. I am sure there are other good organizations I do not know about. Do your research and JOIN. It is NOT ENOUGH to just vote. Join, and GIVE MONEY to the group of your choosing. Yes, GIVE MONEY. We must out spend AIPAC. It may sound like a tall order, but there are MORE OF US, if we ALL UNITE(a la Lord of the Rings). Domestic affairs may separate us but we have a serious common enemy that will lead us to World War III if left alone to its EVIL devices.

JOIN, SPREAD THE WORD, AND GIVE GIVE GIVE MONEY MONEY MONEY. And for now CALL YOUR CONGRESS(WO)MEN, SENATORS DAILY AND REPEATEDLY TO DEFUND THIS WAR. Tell your grandma and grandpa, aunts and uncles, mom and dad to call everyday, as often as they can. It bugs the hell out of them and IT WORKS.

Ba'Al wrote:

"Finally, there is the fact that Colson is demonstrably dishonest and in a better society would be discredited from participating in discussions of public policy. He had his chance to work at highest levels of the government, and he participated in gross subversion of the Consititution."

You have a point.

Why is it that the rehabilitation of white collar criminals in this country includes book tours and new-found financial gains? Why is it that the higher their crime, the greater their eventual reward?

You're right - he had his chance and he disgraced himself.

I think I liked it better when people like Mr Colson slinked off into exile and left the world alone, their therapy restricted to cutting out paper dolls or sewing together their hair shirt.

Stan, the Israelites, (builders, carpenters) did NOT corss the red sea. They crossed the SEA OF REEDS. The Nile river qualifies as a sea of reeds. The ONLY way into Akhetaten was across the Nile at the time, (still is?).

I just took another look myself. It's his chapter 34. It's there complete with the miracles of water and food in a place there was none, Moses striking a stone and water gushing forth. The Amarna cove was void in life support at the time with all supplies to build Akhetaten having to be barged across the Nile from the west bank. Egyptianologists are pretty much in agreement that Akhetaten was built by foreigners too. Another damning point for the Bible story, 12 tribes of Israelites being led to a desert place where they built a tabernacle, (Akhetaten?) worshipped, honored, adored, glorified and made sacrifices to the God of the father of Moses. That's the sun, lol.

Every significant part of Exodus is accounted for the way I read it, (I have more than a little training in the Bible). Where exactly he read that I'm not sure but one thing is for sure, "chasing the money changers from the temple of God." I think all Egyptologists agree on that point. Amenophis IV is creditted with an identical. Was that a historical single or did two people, Jesus of Nazerath and Amenophis IV both do it?

It doesn't take much to figure out the three great faiths that get their God from a hoax are in for a licking of one kind or the other. That story will not go away and it CAN and WILL be verified as fairly accurate with details added by the experts that have been asleep all these years. I should note that all these years only amount to a couple of hundred, since Napaleon, the first great anti Christ who turned Notra Dame over to the Parisian prostitutes saying they had paid for it, so I've heard, lol.

I and a couple others I've noticed have pointed out to Newsweek and WP at this blog the biggest story since Washington crossed the Delaware. If they aren't working hard on it the LA Times surely is or some other major publication. The question is not will the story break but when, in the middle of the 2008 campaign when evangelicals are talking to the sun, sorry meant to say talking to God, lol.

Protect Israel? Ok Mr. Colston. I am going to go sign up for the Israeli Defense Forces right away. Oh whoops, you must be a Jew to be in their army. Oh and also, you must take a class on how to torture and imprison Palestinian muslems and christians. Or did you not know Israel persecutes Christians too? Nobody told you that the Israelis have walled off bethlehem? Jerusalem has been walled off too. Under muslem rule, Christians practiced freely. Under your so called Chosen people lol, Christians are imprisoned or have left the country. I think I know what im talking about. Since i was born there and live there.
But regardless, Lets have more american troops die to protect Israel. And lets send all of our Social Security money to protect Israel. And I think they need more weapons. You know what, Israel, the chosen people of the chosen country, deserves some food too. And more cluster bombs to drop on 50% christian Lebanon.
Does anyone get my point? When are we going to take care of America? When will we spend our money here? Keep our troops here? Or are we going to listen to some cokehead "christian" dude who sells books and makes millions preaching help Israel. Oh, and on the side,, he converts murderers to Christianity.
Protect America!!!!!

Hoax-busters has a lot of it right but it should be fair to wonder why it omitted the crossing of the Red Sea on foot with an 'East' wind strong enough to hold back a wall of water on at least two sides!! What did the velocity of the wind have to be??? And where did the water go?

Also, it has ignored or not dealt with what should be common sense that the scheme couldn't/wouldn't have endured for thousands of years without a groupie somewhere nurturing it and sustaining it!

Here is some music that helps expand one's understanding regarding the nature of war:
http://www.resourcesforlife.com/groups/activist/antiwarmusic.html

Your assertions are incredible and incorrect. Since you want to justify the morality of the war in Iraq, why don't you start with the fact that this administration withheld, distorted information to justify this war. There reasons given changed so often, it has been dizzying. I will never believe they did not know Saddam did not have wmds, the IAEA said we were wrong (we made them leave Iraq) and saying what Saddam had done before (without acknowledging our participation)is wrong. The war was wrong at its roots and it will be wrong forever. I don't mean that America can't kill all the so-called insurgents in Iraq but it will not bring and has not brought us any legitimacy. A lie is a lie whether you can rationalize it or not.

We did not make promises to the Iraqi people. They never asked us to intervene. That is a lie we use to justify staying.

We cannot not make Israel any safer, I don't care how many Iraqi, Iranians, whoever we kill. That is not within our power or purview. Israel's actions will either bring her peace or war. That can only be Israel's decision. The Israelis will have to acknowledge their sin before God as do we. We cannot give them absolution or deliver peace by gun or bomb or any other means. Their actions toward the Palestinians could use some serious soul searching.

In the war last summer, I was appalled at the actions of the Israelis dropping all those bombs, destroying the infrastructure of Lebanon, killing without thought or remorse. The US delivered the bombs and rushed more. Condi Rice pretended to take a trip over there to talk while on her transport were more bombs and she seemed to relish the death and destruction. It seems she thought this was a show of strength that would bolster the US and Israel. It did neither. In this conflict, we have killed tens of thousands of innocents. How do you square that in your conscience? How do you purport to be speaking from a biblical standpoint and not understand that collateral damage is not a concept I have seen in the Bible as being justifiable by God.

In the coming weeks, the US is going to use the same tactics in Sadr City and other places. They will kill many and justify it by saying things like 'they did not want to work with us', 'they would not put down their weapons', 'we couldn't tell friend from enemy', we are justified because we told them what would happen'.

I don't know what God you serve, but He seems to be the same one that all the people of this administration serves and He appears to be exceedingly tolerant of any action all of you want to take. It seems that saying we are keeping Israel safe is the umbrella under which anything can be justified. Do you really believe that God will whitewash anything as long as we append the "keeping Isreal safe" designation. It can be arrogant; abrogate the laws of this land and any other; kill based on pre-emption; kill to perserve your presumed place in the world. Nothing seems to be sacred to all of you and nothing withheld from your hands to do if you wish. Looking at the actions of this administration and supporters like yourself, I note that you seem to wave the Bible but have not read or understood it or you would be much more careful about your actions and stances you advocate. What you sow, you will reap is known to almost everyone whether they have read the Bible or not. This administration has sown the wind, the American people will reap the whirlwind. I suggest you pray more, Mr. Colson. You seem still to be wedded more to a party affiliation than to Christ.

BA'AL, the hoax buster says that according to the founders of their faith, the ancient Egyptians, only "accompolished liars" will enter into the kingdom of God, both this world and the next. They must pass Satan, the "accuser's" lie detector test.

With that in mind, Charles proving to be something less than an "accompolished liar," he got caught by mortal men, needs all the help he can get. I would just point out that "practice lying" is the prescribed formula for the group he's joined. That may help explain what you are seeing as well.

Charles is still attempting to sneak into heaven in spite of his public sinning. Allah has a different set of rules? Maybe Charles could convert to Muhammadism, become a jihad suicide attacker, guaranteed entry into the kingdommof God. Maybe he should get "the rest of the story" about the origin of faith first. Hoax buster has it and in pictures so the illiterate can read it too.

What happens if all faith is a farse? What if everyone goes to the next life? Did you see that picture of what Jews are doing to Hitler? They can call it heaven if they like but that's only so for those who get along with other people. Same rule applies right here and now. Don't you think?

BA'AL, the frustration you express comes from your lack of faith. Jesus forgives sins. "We are all sinners" said Mr George Dubya Bush, president. You must factor that into your analysis.

I'm guessing your are not familiar with the scenario.

Charles sinned against the laws of Father God. In particular he lied, a violation of law #8, "Thou shalt not bear false witness." You say others as well but one is enough.

In order to get that sin and all others he did, is doing, forgiven Charles signed on to a group that sacrificed Father God's only begotten son, (to Father God?).

When Charlse stands before the great judgment seat of Father God he will say, "I'm righteous because I participated in the curcifixion of Your son, Jesus. I was in on it. I didn't drive any nails but that was only because I didn't get the opportunity." Now Father God is supposed to say, "I see. You are truly righteous. Your sins have all been forgiven. Welcome into my kingdom."

Now after you see that reasoning there I'd like to talk to you about owing a nice bridge. You can make a fortune charging toll to cross it.

You have got to be kidding me! Mr. Colson is evidence A of why in the court of common sense these Conservative literalst are completely out of their mind.

For one, Mr. Colson Iraq posed no threat to America at all. We divided their country into thirds and Sadaam was busy writing romantic novels as he slowly went out of his mind. How do you know that pulling troops out will make the situation worse? 80% of the Iraqi people want us out. You guys have not been right about anything. Not WMDs, greeted as liberators, or cost of the war to name just a few.

I will not even bother to address specifically the ridiculous assertions you make in your post. In the end everyone who supports this illegal, immoral, and stupid war should be held accountable in some way. This is craziness...

Peoples lives are at stake. Our soldiers are dying not to mention the thousands of Iraqi's who have died and are threatened by sectarian violence.

Hey, Chuckie...knock, knock, anybody home? There is no Easter Bunny or Santa Claus. I really don't care if we agree with Ireal or not on anything. They are a small country who deserves to live in peace just like the Palestinians. Who unfortunately, live at the hands of an aparthied system.

Look, it is patently immoral for the Conservatives to rally around the cry of, " better to fight them over there then over here". As if Iraqi and Muslim lives are less valuable then American lives.

I am thorougly appalled by this country, this current administration, and the religious dingbats. As far as I am concerned Bush/Cheney/Rice/Rove and the rest of the gang are war criminals. That in a truly international and fair court system would be found guilty of prosecuting an unjust and illegal war.

Mr. Colson you should be ashamed of yourself for being so foolish. Shame on you, the people you support, and the God you claim to talk to.

b.

Mr. Colson writes: "The subsequent discovery of our intelligence failures would have thrown this judgment into question. At best, it was a close call."

The failure that he speaks about is not a failure to gather appropriate intelligence, it was a failure to pay any attention to the mountains of intelligence that pointed to any conclusion other than the one that Bush and Cheney wanted to reach; and so hundreds of thousands of people have died.

The bigger failure is that people in the administration, and people like Mr. Colson, had criminally negligent knowledge of the people and history of the country they were attacking. Therefore they could not foresee the maelstrom that emerged, or the impossibility of what they tried to do. Their failure to plan for the aftermath of their unprovoked invasion is a war crime.

Finally, there is the fact that Colson is demonstrably dishonest and in a better society would be discredited from participating in discussions of public policy. He had his chance to work at highest levels of the government, and he participated in gross subversion of the Consititution. Don't forget that this is the man who once proposed firebombing the Brookings Institution! I believe in the power of redemption. I believe it is ok for Mr. Colson to no longer be prison for the many felonies he committed (even if he was only tried for one and even if the 7 months he served was an absurdity). But it is absolutely stupefying that he remains a public figure.

A simple question for the doctors of the divinities here abouts.

If angels can't be shot then why do they have shields?

Check out the "official" pictures of angels at the hoax buster web site and give those of us who would shoot angels a professional opinion. You see, a fellow named Patton has already crossed the nebol bridge. There are those of us with faith, believe that bridge, the nebol bridge that joins this land earth to the next land we shall occupy is clean clear of angels. Why do we think that? We know Patton will not allow jackasses to block bridges and has already personally shot the lot of them with his ivory, (definitely not peral) handled revolvers.

Official picture of angels at war http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul If I could copy the picture to here I wouldn't put that URL here.

His nickname is wrong. It's Charles "Moses" Colson. He has a lot more in common with Moses than Charlie Brown.

1) Moses was a rich kid, live Ken doll at the palace.
1) Charles was a "Rich" man, a plumber's mouthpiece at the white house.

2) Moses committed a crime, murder.
2) Charles attempted to murder the US government.

3) Moses fled to Midian and avoided prossecution.
3) Charles was prossecuted and vacated at Club Fed.

4) Moses made a deal with Devil.
4) Charles called upon son of Devil, Jesus.

5) Moses was born again, restored to riches.
5) Charles is born again, restored to riches.

They both went from riches to rags and had their riches restored after making a deal with the being that lives in fire. Moses Father Devil and Charles with son of Devil.

The big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. Devil is the great enemy of democracy.

"Go to your churches, temples, synagogues, mosques and pray" (to Devil) for we are under attack by a Devil named Allah.

"Just cause" the Devil made him do that don't mean we have to go along with it. Religion is the great enemy of democracy. Religion is Devil worship. It's Devil and not God that lathers those who lead the multitudes to hell with the big money.

Defund the war. The BS on TV last night was that the appropriation had already been made and Congress was/is helpless to stop it. That's just more propaganda and pure BS. If Congress passed a law Congress can rescind it. If the President won't sign it, he can be overruled by a two-thirds vote. So it is back to the Congress. So the question is: will the Congress also betray the American people and let the funding stand for the War? Policing the borders of Iraq might make sense since we screwed it up. But Iraqis are going to get killed whether we stay or leave.

The House could impeach in the morning and the Senate convict and remove in the afternoon if it would. Or even less time than that if it were of a mind to.

Bush is a problem but the Constitution recognizes a President might be a problem. It is the Congress as representatives of the people that is betraying the United States of America by not taking corrective action.

All the stuff based on the Old Testament except Psalms and Proverbs should be dispensed with. It was obviously made up for political purposes. Even Solomon said as much!!! Read Ecclesiastes!!!

Colson, you are just another Christian nutcase who would base our foreign policy on the Old Testament. Get out of our lives!

Free Palestine!

Chuck,

Long time no see. I think the last time was back when you were a Counselor to Dick Nixon in the early 70’s. We are getting on in years now, aren’t we?

I am astonished that you could come to the conclusion you did in your first paragraph. Lets take “just cause” for example. Pray tell, what was our just cause? “the threat presented”? Give me a break will you? We were flying our aircraft at will over half of the South and half of the North, on a daily basis. We still had a carrier and its entourage sitting just offshore. We had already established that our air forces and just some armor and a couple of mechanized infantry divisions was all it would take to destroy their army totally. At the time we all ready had a good part of that sitting down in Kuwait, waiting. Iraq was a threat to us? I hear the Good Lord does not really approve of prevarication! Pray tell; just how in the world was this pinned down country, having been disarmed by the UN, going to attack us from 6000 or so miles away? And don’t blame it on the crappy intelligence either. These were the same folk that bombed the Chinese embassy by mistake, and that pharmaceutical plant in Sudan by mistake, and so on. Of course it was crappy intelligence, and the crappiness of this particular intelligence was confirmed by the fact that the UN inspectors found nothing no matter where we directed them to go in Iraq. Anyone who extracts a “just cause” for the USA out of these circumstances is clearly joking, don’t you agree?

Preemptive justification is even farther away. Just what is it that we proposed to preempt anyway? The mushroom cloud they might develop in another century or so? How can anyone advance this rationale with a straight face? It is clearly absurd.

Being a freethinker myself, I’m not well equipped to take on the religious arguments you raise in one way or another. But Friend Jacob seems to have done that quite well and I am impressed and agree with the non-theological arguments he makes. In particular, I am in substantive agreement with his analysis of Israel.

But looking forward, you are correct. We did again make promises to the Iraqi people, just as we made implicit promises to the Shia in 1991, which Bush Sr. proceeded to ignore; leaving Saddam to slaughter thousands of Shia unimpeded. But I take issue with your reformulation of the current question. The question now is when is it acceptable to leave? Our past levels of immorality makes a moral outcome quite impossible. What we should do is to leave it to the Iraqis to manage and settle their own internal affairs, something which may take some internal bloodshed. We need to re-deploy some of our combat forces North to protect the Kurds from neighbors and neighbors from the Kurds. We need to re-deploy some combat forces to Kuwait to cover Basra and the southern oil fields. We may need to maintain combat forces somewhere in Anbar province to make sure Jordan is not threatened by Iraqi instability. Combat forces remaining should go home, leaving just those with training or reconstruction missions. What is left to the Iraqis will be the politics of the Sunni/Shia conflict and to some degree the Kurd/Arab conflict, in Kirkuk in particular.

That is about the best we can do, whether it is moral or not. The rest of it will be up to the Iraqis, and if they insist on slaughtering each other, there is not a whole lot anyone can do about that.

By the way, don’t buy this BS about Al-Quaida in Iraq following us here. Can you imagine a sillier idea? What is going to happen is they will go back to where they came from or the Iraqis will kill them. The Iraqi’s won’t need them any more.

Finally, while all of this “Just War” doctrine developed by very smart people is intellectually fascinating, it no longer applies among members of the UN. There are only two justifiable ways for a nation to go to war, in self-defense, or if so authorized by the UN Security Council. That is what all UN members sign up for.

"Out of Iraq: A Practical Plan for Withdrawal Now" by former senator George McGovern and William R. Polk, a leading authority on the Middle East, offer a detailed plan for a speedy troop withdrawal from Iraq.

During the phased withdrawal, to begin on December 31, 2006, and to be completed by June 30, 2007, they recommend that the Iraq government engage the temporary services of an international stabilization force to police the country. Other elements in the withdrawal plan include an independent accounting of American expenditures of Iraqi funds, reparations to Iraqi civilians for lives lost and property destroyed, immediate release of all prisoners of war, the closing of American detention centers, and offering to void all contracts for petroleum exploration, development, and marketing made during the American occupation.

$8.00 used on Amazon.

To all fellow like-minded anti-Iraq war posters,

Call all your representatives and senators to DEFUND this war REPEATEDLY and DAILY. It is the only way to get our troops home. This proposed escalation will ensure many of those 21,000 troops to come home in body bags. As Bush suggested, he has sent carrier battle group to the Gulf to step up the pressure on Iran, and Syria and this escalation will only lead to further escalation--invasion of Iran and Syria.

Bush can not be reasoned with. No one, including his own sensible father can convince him. We have to stop this war the way the Vietnam war was stopped. Congress must DEFUND this war, save the expense to safely, and carefully withdraw our troops in stages.

Don't be just upset. CALL, CALL, CALL, REPEATEDLY and DAILY.

"To the religious right who think that they run America and the world. Your days as a voice around here are numbered. Soon you will join the other fanatics on the ash heap of history who has sought to terrorize innocent citizens for centuries. We the intelligent, loving, caring members of this society will no longer tolerate your efforts to destroy our country, and turn it into a religious dictatorship. You don’t have a clue as to what America really stands for, nor how or why it was originally established and by whom, worse yet, you don’t care. True Americans have resisted and will continue to resist your efforts to modify, codify and amend our constitution to suit your insidious purposes. Just take a good look at the world today, it’s being torn apart by religious fanatics who think that somehow they’re the righteous, and everyone else is infidels. The most dangerous threat to world peace and stability is not al Qaeda, but George W. Bush and evangelical Christians. They have become what they so solemnly swear they wish to destroy, but replace it with what? Remember those who choose not to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Shall we re-fight every war, every battle, and every crusade? True men and women of peace who believe in a power greater themselves believe in love and tolerance for their fellows not dominance, slavery and dictatorship. As Americans we have a chance to rekindle and nurture our cherished democracy, or watch it fall like so many other nations which started out as noble ideas and ended in tragedy. The sun set on the British empire long, long ago, and Manifest Destiny was crushed by the weight of a Soviet built T-62 as the gates to the U. S. Embassy in Saigon fell in that spring of 1975. This fight for our rights doesn’t start at the national or state level; it starts right here, right now, in our home towns across this land. Let’s do it!"

To FOOL OF WISDOM:

You must accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior or you're going to hell.

The Jews returning to their homeland signals the end is near. Wars and rumors of wars are now the norm and the anti Christ has appeared. Prophecy is fulfilled. Jesus is coming. Are you ready?

Repent! The end is at hand!!

ASK JEWISH PEOPE AND THEIR RABBIS WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT THESE ISSUES- WHO WOULD KNOW BETTER?

ORTHODOX JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM

TRUE TORAH JEWS AGAINST ZIONISM

they will tell you everything from their own holy books

zionists do not have the backing of the bible or god

how many times have men and war try to erase the Jews, and yet they still stand, forever in the land they currently occupy. Something tells me that there is something in the Bible that says they will stand forever. It doesnt take a rocket scientist to see that they are God's chosen. Why are Jews always under attack, Why does so much effort go into discrediting the Word of God and yet it stands. the enemy is busy! You cant get rid or discredit absolute TRUTH! let those who have an ear.. hear

Mr. Colson,

As an evangelical Christian I was impressed with your work with Prison Fellowship over the years and your insightful views on many areas of Christian life.

That said, you are tragically wrong to get away from doing good in the name of Christ and stake your opinion on foreign policy affairs which I know you are NOT an expert, and a position that will result in deaths of many more American soldiers.

How many more deaths are enough? 2000 more U.S. soldiers killed? 3000 more? Is ANY victory worth literally thousands more young Americans killed in the very budding of their lives? Some experts say we may be in Iraq for 5 to 10 years hence. 10,000 more U.S. troop deaths enough for you?

You even quoted Genesis 12:3 which is God's blessing to Abraham(then Abram) to his descendants. Last time I checked, both Arabs and Jews are descendants of Abraham, and both claim to worship the God of Abraham. So demonizing Arabs for the sake of Israelis would be cursing Abraham's descendants.

From the Christian view point of course, the book of Hebrews expounds the Genesis blessing of God "through your seed I will bless the nations". The writer of Hebrews(one of the inspired Cannon of Christianity) says that this seed, singular, is Christ. God will bless the nations through his Son, Jesus. "I am the way, the truth, and the life".

Those of us Christians who have muddy theology of the end times(escatology), who believe the state of Israel is necessary for the second coming of Christ, should wake up and read the bible for themselves and find that this is not the orthodox Christian position. This is NEW theology from the Charismatic movement(not all bad), not espoused by the church fathers nor the reformers like Luther, Zwingli, Hus, or Calvin.

Israel is NOT in a struggle for survival; it is in a struggle for the JUSTIFICATION of regional hegemony. It's military is categorically unmatched in the region, and it is the only nuclear nation in the Middle East with an estimated 250 to 300 warheads. Germany has recently sold them 5 more diesel submarines capable of delivering these nuclear warheads to places like Tehran.

To me, Iranian hardliner's desires to aquire nukes of their own in the face of Israeli and AIPAC warmongering -- both capability(300 nukes, dozens of nuke capable subs, strongest conventional military in the area) and intention(Israel has warplanned against Iraq, Iran, and Syria for many year)-- is within the normal behavioral response of any nation faced with a grave threat to its national security. What would Japan and South Korea do if North Korea stock piled 300 nukes, bought a fleet of subs to deliver the warheads, war planned against them, and convinced the world's only super power, America, to illegally invade one of them based on bogus intelligence? Who is the aggressor here? A country with NO nuke and NO delivery system, or a country with 300 nukes and a fleet of delivery subs? Israeli threat is no mere words. Israel has invaded and currently occupies lands of EVERY SINGLE ONE of its neighbors; Lebanon--Shebaa farms, Syria--Golan Heights, Palestine--it occupies all of their lands. All of the current conflict in the Middle East is tied to the actions and aspirations of the region's absolute hegemon, Israel, thanks to $6B in direct and indirect annual military aid by the American tax payers--100 billion dollars so far.

We must DEFUND the war in Iraq; it is the only sure way to bring the troops home as NO ONE can seem to convince President Bush(as a FORMER neocon until last August when Israeli warplanes dumped millions of cluster bomblets in Lebanon, which is 40% Christian, with a democratically elected pro-West, pro-American government, killing and maiming people every day since the war "ended", I had voted for him both times and given thousands of dollars to the Republican cause)--the same way they ended the Vietnam war. Once we are gone, foreign fighters will have no reason for flooding in to fight "the Americans". By the way, Al Qaida and Bin Laden are Sunni, like Saddam, and Iraqis of course, are 60% Shiia. Shiites and Kurds are not going to tolerate Al Qaida/Sunni controlled Taliban state. Remember the self-proclaimed Iraqi Al Qaida, Zarqawi, now dead, bombed the holiest Shiia mosque in Samara starting this Shiia retaliation against the former Sunni insurgency. Of course we must withdraw the troops carefully, in stages, in cooperation with all of Iraq's neighbors and with the world community behind us through the U.N. just as the Iraq Study Group suggested.

Finally, again, to fellow evangelical Christians; did you know that where ever Israelis have set foot, native Christian have fled in droves? Before the European Jews arrived, the holy lands(not in capitals--only Holy Land we have is heavenly Jerusalem) was 20% Christians, Bethlehem had 80% Arab Christians. Now Israel is less than 4% Christian and Bethlehem, walled of by Israeli security wall, has less than 20% Christians left. Does this sound right to you? God's blessing to Abraham is non-racial and is directed at His Church whether it is Arab, Jew, or the rest of the gentiles.

Is it explainable in one or two sentences why the interest of Israel should be put above the interest of the United States of America?

Also, the physics of: Noah and the Flood; and of the Israelites crossing the Red Sea with an ultra strong wind in the area. If those two items fail all known laws of physics then all the writings attributed to Moses fall with them.

And why the interest,if it be so, as is often implied, of why the average person of Jewish persuasion that is an American citizen is greater for the State of Israel than for the United States of America? It would seem that to a reasonable person that the greater interest should be with maintaining the United States of America and its Constitution.

There is something about the Shiites and their relationship to some force that we haven't caught on to yet. With all the lying in high places nothing about Iran should be believed either. Nothing coming out of the Middle East or said about the Middle East should be accepted at face value. Can we tell the players without a trustworthy scorecard?

And it goes on and on.

To all who have ears to listen. Don't you see what's coming?

Jews must return to their homeland. They are there.

There must be wars and rumors of wars. Iraq is war. Iran, Syria are rumored wars.

The anti Christ is identified. Satan be gone!!

Repent!!! The end is near!!! The Lord God of Israel is coming again on a cloud to judge the living and the dead.

When you hear the raptures you will know the beaming up by Jesus has begun. Will you be there when the saints come marching in?????

Prophecy is fullfilled!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Holy holy holy Lord God of host!!! Praise honor glory to you Lord God or Israel!!!

Morality is at least a two-way street.

Mr. Colson's argument ignores the moral implications of the cost to America of continuing this madness. He shares this failing with most of those who support our continued military and econonmic involvement in Iraq.

The countervailing morality arises from burdens falling on present and future generations. There are the thousands of dead and wounded American soldiers. There is the money for Iraq could have been used to strengthen those who, through no fault of their own, have not prospered from the great run-up in corporate profits and executive salaries and golden parachutes. There are the future generations who must shoulder the debt this Administration has created, by refusing to foster a greater sharing of the burden through taxing those with the ability to pay.

We need to assess which is the greater moral failing--ignoring Iraq or ignoring our own needs. By nearly any measure, America is a wealthy nation, but our wealth is not boundless, our ability to use moral suasion in the pursuit of helping peoples of other lands not impervious to self-inflicted wounds.

Colson wants us to occupy Iraq for a 1000 years. It's much too late for us to have Iraq as a colony. "The natives are restless".

bush has refused to send in enough troops to do the job for years. Anyone who wants us to stay there had better come up with a policy to put 1/2 million soldiers there and tax people to pay for it.

This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

Israel is the largest recipient of US foreign aid. It is already due to get $2.04 billion in military assistance and $720 million in economic aid in fiscal 2003. It has been getting $3 billion a year for years.

Adjusting the official aid to 2001 dollars in purchasing power, Israel has been given $240 billion since 1973, Stauffer reckons. In addition, the US has given Egypt $117 billion and Jordan $22 billion in foreign aid in return for signing peace treaties with Israel.

another estimate

Recently Americans have begun to read and hear that “Israel receives $3 billion in annual U.S. foreign aid.” That's true. But it's still a lie. The problem is that in fiscal 1997 alone, Israel received from a variety of other U.S. federal budgets at least $525.8 million above and beyond its $3 billion from the foreign aid budget, and yet another $2 billion in federal loan guarantees. So the complete total of U.S. grants and loan guarantees to Israel for fiscal 1997 was $5,525,800,000.

the congressional report itself was waaay to long so im trying to be brief-

While it is commonly reported that Israel officially receives some $3 billion every year in the form of economic aid from the U.S. government, this figure is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many billions of dollars more in hidden costs and economic losses lurking beneath the surface. A recently published economic analysis has concluded that U.S. support for the state of Israel has cost American taxpayers nearly $3 trillion ($3 million millions) in 2002 dollars.

“The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion” is a summary of economic research done by Thomas R. Stauffer. Stauffer’s summary of the research was published in the June 2003 issue of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

Stauffer is a Washington, D.C.-based engineer and economist who writes and teaches about the economics of energy and the Middle East. Stauffer has taught at Harvard University and Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Service. Stauffer’s findings were first presented at an October 2002 conference sponsored by the U.S. Army College and the University of Maine.

okay im tired- anyone can do a search and get the same results

Why do CONSERVATIVE Christians have a heart of stone for the massive suffering and devastation done to Iraq... not to mention the support for Bush's torture policies which have caught up a number of innocents in your nets.

People like you are one Proof why There is no God, sir -- for a REAL God would be appalled at the Evil done in His/Her Name.

Your argument does not go past the first premise;

"if any foreign prince takes up arms and prepares to invade their land, they immediately attack him in full force outside their own borders."

Your government attacked Iraq on an unfounded belief that Iraq was involved with 9/11, and that it had WMD.

In any way, political justifications are incompatible with moral reasoning. Christians have never had anything to do with this war in spite of the fact that Blair and Bush attempted to make it one.

Sorry, no such luck...

well it is our problem though- the 2nd largest lobby group in america makes it our problem-
it is easily searched

Search www Search wrmea.com
Home > Html > WRMEA: U.S. Aid to Israel

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact
Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240
Special Reports:

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Congress Watch: A Conservative Total for U.S. Aid to Israel: $91 Billion—and Counting
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Congressional Research Report on Israel: US Foreign Assistance by Clyde Mark (213K pdf file)
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U.S. Aid To Israel: The Strategic Functions
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U.S. Aid to Israel: What U.S. Taxpayer Should Know
*

U.S. Aid to Israel: Interpreting the 'Strategic Relationship'
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The Cost of Israel to U.S. Taxpayers: True Lies About U.S. Aid to Israel

THE STRATEGIC FUNCTIONS OF U.S. AID TO ISRAEL

By Stephen Zunes

Dr. Zunes is an assistant professor in the Department of Politics at the University of San Francisco

Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest.

In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

AID does not term economic aid to Israel as development assistance, but instead uses the term "economic support funding." Given Israel's relative prosperity, U.S. aid to Israel is becoming increasingly controversial. In 1994, Yossi Beilen, deputy foreign minister of Israel and a Knesset member, told the Women's International Zionist organization, "If our economic situation is better than in many of your countries, how can we go on asking for your charity?"

"To [leave now], in my judgment, would break the promises we have made to the Iraqi people"

Such a lie!

Most Iraqis BEGGED us not to invade and destroy their country. I remember seeing Iraqi Christians trying to contact US Churches just prior to the invasion asking us for mercy...

Polls have shown the majority of Shiites and Sunnis want the US to leave -- and even think it is ok to attack Americans as invaders.

The only promises made were to our oil companies, Halliburton, and other contractors getting RICH in Iraq at the expense of the American taxpaper.

You find it morally acceptable to cause such suffering to the people of Iraq when they did nothing. I find your greedy ilk despicable!

Mr. Colson wrote rubbish.

The US did apparently make promises to some Iraqis, but they were sholved aside by the US when it suited the US. Those promises are by now non-existent. (At most, Mssrs. Bush, Colson, and those who agree with them may offer them whatever comfort they want - but there is no obligation on the part of the US).

I am sure that there are some Iraqis who are cooperating with the US, not the Iraqi government. We owe them, and their families, refuge in the US.

As for Israel: Not even rubbish. It is irrelevant. Let Israel treat the Palestinians as human beings. That is definitely NOT our problem.

When we give Montana to the Blackfoot I will support giving support to Israel.

I'm in a bind here: I was disgusted with Saddam Husseins' gouvernment by 1982 or so because he used chemical weapons in the war against Iran. This war was, if not openly then at least tacitly supported by the US and other Western countries. Somehow they not only overlooked that transgression, but even helped Saddam with intelligence of when to use it as to make the most impact on the other side.

So when Mr. Bush went ballistic in 2002-2003 on the idea of Saddam having and using WMD, it struck me as opportunistic hypocrisy while, at the same time, removing Saddam might be moral and might even be considered as "just".

Problem: the move to overthrow Saddam did not seem to be born out of the wish to do the right thing, but out of the opportunistic idea pf neoconservatives (to generalise) that after 9/11, the US had a window of opportunity: nobody in the world had the cloud or the "moral" standing to stop the US to remake the world as they saw fit. Attacking Afghanistan might have been right as Al Quaeda operated from there, it is a landlocked, poor and resoursed-lacking country - not enough to impress the world.

Now Iraq: a murderous dictator who started wars with two of his neighbours, the last one with powerful defenders. Known to have used WMD (lets forget the West overlooked its use less then 10 years previously). And so, the Bush administration thought that by invading Iraq, overthrowing its gouvernment and recasting it in the mold of the US would change the Middle East and put down its mark.

It was a lofty goal, but flaws, ignorance and hubris put paid to those ambitions.

Flaws: if you occupy a country you should be prepared to provide security, law and order. Just last night, Bush accused Syria of aiding "foreign" fighters to get into Iraq. Duh, if you don't want those "foreign fighters" to get into Iraq, seal the border. Can anyone tell me when the US just did that?

Ignorance: Iraq is to a very large extent a tribal society - how do you get voters to put the good of the country over the interests of the tribe.

Hubris: hey, we liberated them, we want some gratitude! (sarcasm)

result: Even if the Iraq invasion of 2003 could have been defended as a just war, the US lost that defense later on when they didn't do what they were supposed to: provide security, law and order. the present mess in Iraq for a large measure feeds back to that mistake.

so, on the one hand - it's you broke it, you own it: do whatever is needed to put it right.
on the other hand: you've shown yourself so incompetent, arrogant and delusional - get out now. But be prepared in 10 years or so, when a measure of stability is reached (what kind, don't ask me), to fork out billions of $ to rebuild Iraq as a recompense for the incompetence shown by the present Bush administration.

God’s words to the Jews in His covenant with Abraham, “I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse.” (Genesis 12:3). A God of love and compassion cursing others? Allah curses the infidels. The God of Abraham is the same God as Allah if the Muslims are the decedents of Abraham, too so he curses himself and all his children.

A good part of the reason we are stuck in a civil war in Iraq is because religious and political leaders play "My god is better than your god" Religion is the root of all evil and the cause of all Muslim and Christian extremism as well. As long as the Christian extremists like Colson believe we have a duty to protect Israel and the Muslim extremists believe they have a duty to destroy Israel, there will be war.
Who will pay the price? Not the sons and daughters of religious and political leaders but those of their blind followers.

BA'AL,
He's a bit busy working with prisoners and their families so that when the prisoners get out of jail they don't go back. It's called putting your money where your mouth is.

What Colson and the other warmongers seem to be incapable of considering is the possibility that the way to ease the violence in Iraq is to withdraw. The very presence of American forces is one of the major factors inspiring the violence.

To argue that withdrawing would inevitably "lead to massive chaos and bloodshed is disingenuous; massive chaos and bloodshed is precisely what we see there now!

I also wouldn't put too much stock in predictions coming from the people who told us the Iraqis would welcome American soldiers as liberators. Mr. Colson and his fellow war enthusiasts have been too wrong too often to be taken seriously.

Regards

A Hermit

PS I don't think the blood on the hands of Mr Colson and his fellow war advocates is what teh scripture writers had in mind with their "washed in the blood" rhetoric, but it does seem appropriate, somehow...

Finally someone has the guts to not the real reason for the War in Iraq, Isreal!

thank-you for letting America know why our children are dying for the safety of Isreal.

This war has nothng to do with American interests or safety, just Isreal's.

an absurd column. This extremist propagandist has no grasp of reality in Iraq or the middle east. It's not worth going into it actually.

BA'AL be more careful about bad mothing outstanding citizens. He has written 23 books and there isn't a single lie in any of them. His last book, "The Good Life" says it all. Don't you think?

Alright Mr Mark, Bush has to go but we must replace him with another war hero that speaks to God so the country can "stay the coruse" to heaven, or was that hell. My candidate is Pat Robertson. I heard somewhere that he suffered combat fatigue just before the landing at Enchon, Korea, 1950. That in itself makes Lt Robertson unique in the glorious allals of the Corps. There's also a reformed bootlegger's assistant with an equally inspiring tale about hearing God's voice to take the helm. We must "stay the course" else paradise will surely be lost.

Perhaps Mr Colson isn't busy. Maybe he could rule the kingdom of God in the absence of Jesus. We must at least try to maintain the appearance of a separation of church and state even though you and I both know who's running things, a "higher power." Mr Charles hasn't taken holy orders has he?

Not mentioned anywhere is the fact that convicted felon Charles Colson is a signer of the so-called Land Letter of October 2002, which made the case for the war in Iraq on the basis of "Just War" theory. That letter stated among other things that pre-emptive invasion of Iraq met the criteria of traditional 'just war' theory, including:

(1) the war was defensive and the US was a legitimate authority; (2)it is a last resort because Saddam Hussein's 'headlong pursuit and development of biochemical and nuclear weapons of mass destruction' and harboring Al Qaeda terrorists; (3) non-combatant immunity would be observed and the human cost on both sides would be justified by the intended outcome.

It is disingenuous for him to soft-peddle that support now that the results of this colossally bad decision have come home to roost. Interestingly, here is what he had to say in opposition to US operations in Kosovo in 1999:

"First, the Just War Theory requires that war be declared by the proper authority and be waged to resist an attack. There has been no attack here. This war is being waged within a sovereign state.... As one who lived through Vietnam while working in the White House, I never again want to see our troops committed to a fruitless ground war--certainly not when doing so fails to meet a fundamental expression of Christian doctrine."

As for the whole Iran/Israel doomsday scenario, Mr. Colson is peddling the same domino theory nonsense that got us into Iraq (and Vietnam too).

I cannot believe anyone gives this guy a forum. Partisan as ever, dishonest as ever, slimy as ever.

God’s words to the Jews in His covenant with Abraham, “I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse.” (Genesis 12:3). A God of love and compassion cursing others? Allah curses the infidels. The God of Abraham (who by the way is the same God as Allah if the Muslims are the decedents of Abraham, too).

A good part of the reason we are stuck in a non-winnable civil war in Iraq is because religious and political leaders play "My god is better than your god" Religion is the root of all evil and the cause of all Muslim and Christian extremism as well. As long as the Christian extremists like Colson believe we have a duty to protect Israel and the Muslim extremists believe they have a duty to destroy Israel, there will be war.

Who will pay the price? Not the sons and daughters of religious and political leaders but those of their blind followers.

The premise of Mr Colson's posting is spot on, though I disagree with some of the reasoning behind it (ie: I don't believe that the USA must consider every move it makes through the prism of "what's best for Israel," for example, but that' a whole 'nother issue).

Last night on one of the never-ending TV gabfests, Pat Buchanan opined that if the USA had a parlimentary form of government, then the bush government would have surely fallen last November. That thought gave me pause: should the bush government be removed at this time? The answer to that question is a resounding "yes."

It seems to me that the 800-lb gorilla in the Iraq War room is the bush administration. They are the people who lied us into war and then botched the thing beyond repair. They are, as Mr Colson put it, an "adminstration (that) acts like a bunch of naked apes trying to make sense of things they have neither the intellect to understand, nor the wisdom/compassion to use in any moral sense." Mr Colson's point is well taken: the people who got us into this mess do not have the capacity to get us out of it.

Mr Colson's parting hope for the future of the bush administration is that, "I do hope they see you from the wrong side of the bars real soon." I would hope that that happens sooner, rather than later. The last I looked, the process for addressing officials who have "subverted, and perverted the United States Constitution" is impeachment and eventual removal from office.

Impeachment seems to me to be our best hope for starting a meaningful and positive process in Iraq. How many more deaths will we abide before we realize the obvious and take the steps necessary to move to real solutions to the debacle Mr bush has led us into?

Chuck Colson:

You say that we have a moral duty to stay in Iraq because (1) we made unspecified promises to the Iraq people, and (2)that's the only way to stop Iran from destroying Israel, and (3) we must not embolden Al Qaeda? Are you serious?

First, we promised the Iraqis that we would GET OUT of Iraq, not to stay no matter what happened. Second, I can think of less costly and more direct ways to deter an Iranian nuclear bomb (to be used on Israel or us) than continuing a war in Iraq. Wouldn't getting out of Iraq free us up for such alternatives? Finally, don't you think Al Qaeda is fairly bold as is? How much room is there for an "emboldening"?

On other posts, folk are seriously debating what is a just war or not. You dismiss the concept, but then implicitly assume that whatever advances the fundamentalist Christian agenda (save Israel), is necessarily just. What an odd definition of "just."

Mr Colson:

Thank you for your inspiration and all the good work you are doing helping those in prison cope and find salvation. I can almost feel the holy spirit decending on me while reading your enlightened words as you must have felt it engulf your body during your ordeal, getting caught, being charged, convicted and serving your time. Your debt to society now having been paid. Congratulations. The angels in heaven dance with delight when a lost soul is saved. You now belong to a special club of those who overcome their adversity, those who now serve God as you do.

Just one question. Is the committment of American troops contingent on what Augistine wrote or is that a matter for our elected officials? At least it conforms to consulting a "higher power" first. Devil is a higher power as you seem to be in a position to verify. The Devil did make you do that?

Serving Devil pays well so I understand. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is must reading for those who serve a "higher power."

Dear Mr. Colson, I understand and fully appreciate the argument that you make. It gives me no pleasure to state that it is morally unacceptable to let this illegal war stand. We have been thrown into this fiasco under false pretenses, and now that we are there, we are supposed to just shut up and take it? No Sir. I will not be party to that criminal act on top of a criminal act. Double Down indeed. (A misuse of a military term describing a brilliant anti insurgency strategic/tactical shift. One apparently ignored) That, sir is something worthy of Prison Correction and I think you may agree with my sentiments if not my argument. I can not say and I do not attempt to speak for you, but I know that you deal with prisons so I know that you have more than a passing knowledge of the workings of the criminal mind. I ask you Sir, does anything you have seen in connection with the incitement,rush to conduct, and now the proposed escalation of this war appear remotely analogous to a gang-land turf war to you?
What would be the pay off of the sandy turf, Sir?
I think we should rotate our brave, and honorable service men and women home, and rotate whatever replacements they had coming....probably not many....back to Afghanistan theater to complete the legal, just war and nation rebuilding international effort there. That might do more to minimize damage to the hearts and minds of all people throughout the world than this mis-used Surge. The President does not even appreciate the subtleties of the Term much less the clear, concise, beautiful military logic behind it. His adminstration acts like a bunch of naked apes trying to make sense of things they have neither the intellect to understand, nor the wisdom/compassion to use in any moral sense. They have subverted, and perverted the United States Constitution Sir, and I do hope they see you from the wrong side of the bars real soon. God Bless you and yours, Sir. Thank you.