God sets the standard for goodness

From your earlier posts, and your comments in other threads on this subject, I think I know what your answer was.

I've learned not to be surprised when christians profess their inherent superiority, thinking that they are proving their "righteousness" but only giving voice to their self-righteousness and sanctimony. This is just one of the reasons that I freed myself from religion.

Although you and Mr. Thomas seem to consider him to be below your level of "goodness", I offer this quote from Mohandas Gandhi: "I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ. "

Cross2bear wrote:
I gave biblical answers to both of your questions in a long reply I submitted about a day ago. Directly after submitting it, I was notified that the thought police (the site "owner") would review what I wrote and make a determination as to whether it should be approved for public viewing. Apparently, the thought police didn't appreciate my belief in the biblical Jesus. Therefore, I'd suggest you seek out an evangelical pastor for the answers to your questions. I tried.

The TRUTH.
NO HUMAN BEING, INCLUDING MR. THOMAS, KNOWS GOD, CAN SPEAK FOR GOD, OR EVEN KNOWS IF THERE IS A "GOD".

NOT NOBODY, NOT NOHOW!

"I understand what you said, but I'm having trouble relating it to "the question". Are you saying that being "counted as righteous in God's eyes" is the same as being good, moral and ethical? Or is being a christian a prerequisite for being a moral and ethical person?"

Itsthedax,

I gave biblical answers to both of your questions in a long reply I submitted about a day ago. Directly after submitting it, I was notified that the thought police (the site "owner") would review what I wrote and make a determination as to whether it should be approved for public viewing. Apparently, the thought police didn't appreciate my belief in the biblical Jesus. Therefore, I'd suggest you seek out an evangelical pastor for the answers to your questions. I tried.

You know, Cal, you don't seem to be saying how any goodness is supposed to come from your God, but rather how your religion seems to have learned to use induced shame and feelings of valuelessness to make a few feel 'powerful' by keeping a hand hovering over people's self-destruct buttons.

You're talking about *control,* not goodness.

Goodness comes from *valuing* people and the world, not ...calling them 'filthy rags'

I understand what you said, but I'm having trouble relating it to "the question". Are you saying that being "counted as righteous in God's eyes" is the same as being good, moral and ethical? Or is being a christian a prerequisite for being a moral and ethical person?

"Mr. Thomas titled his opinion piece "God Sets the Standard for Goodness", then states that one's goodness is irrelevant, and that only faith matters to God. How can questioning that position be construed as shallowness, or skewering the messenger?"

Itsthedax,

You ask a fair question. Perhaps my assertion assumed some biblical knowledge that many haven't acquired, so let me be specific. The Bible says that no one (not even one of us) is righteous, or good, in God's eyes. That's because every one of us falls short of His standard, which is perfection. Therefore, the goodness we see in ourselves is but "as filthy rags" to God. The reason that, in the end, only faith matters is because it is only by our faith in Jesus Christ that His perfection is imputed to us, and conversely, that our sin is imputed to Him. Though we can never on our own rise to God's standard, we can, by faith in Christ, be "counted as righteous" in God's eyes -- not because of anything we've done, but entirely because of what He did on the cross in our behalf. I hope that explanation is helpful.

Mr. Thomas titled his opinion piece "God Sets the Standard for Goodness", then states that one's goodness is irrelevant, and that only faith matters to God. How can questioning that position be construed as shallowness, or skewering the messenger?

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One of the things that has always intrigued me about this site is the preponderance of views expressed from a purely "personal opinion" standpoint. These writers always seem desirous of skewering the messenger (in this case, Cal Thomas) when they don't like the message (in every case, the Bible). Don't like what the Bible says? That's fine. But criticizing someone for quoting it is a little shallow, don't you think?

Fortunately for the world, science has successfully undermined the simpleminded religions - the Abrahamic cults, mainly Christianity and Islam.

Christianity and Islam have had a good 2000 year run preying on ignorance and the ignorant. This ended for Christianity in Europe with the development of science. It is now looking for the ignorant and uneducated in Africa and South America.

Islam - a strange combination of ignorance and intolerance - has been picking the lowest lying fruit for a 1000 years as apparent in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Now is the time for science, logic, and deeper & truer spirituality - not supremacist, intolerant cults like Christianity and Islam that proselytize and force their views on others. This results in conflict, violence, and suffering.

Now is the time for Vedanta & Hinduism. After 1000 years of anti-Hindu propaganda, many are not prepared to hear the wisdom or absorb the deep & complex monistic philosophy which is consistent with science. Now is a good time to start; at least some will benefit.

A new age of rational spirituality is again arriving, and Hinduism and Vedanta will lead the way again.

One of the things that has always intrigued me about this site is the preponderance of views expressed from a purely "personal opinion" standpoint. These writers always seem desirous of skewering the messenger (in this case, Cal Thomas) when they don't like the message (in every case, the Bible). Don't like what the Bible says? That's fine. But criticizing someone for quoting it is a little shallow, don't you think?

Poor "My-Way-Or-The-Highway" Cal just dismisses the rest of God's children.

cal i picke d you to maybe try and save my life for real because you are not the one i would choose under mnormal times youare the most likey inreal life to try and censor my post inmy way of thinkg it might be my best chance to live or get someone to realize this is no joke i would want you or anyone who saw this to actually call 352-265-0050 this is shands teaching hospital a number they themselve have to give out to siomeone punch any button talk to any person ask them toplease connect you befor 12;30 whenshe get s off to er nurse named vanness my take and i could be wrong is is need to get to shands my helicoptor or jetplane some how by any one who was availabe as soon as posibble i have increaseing nerological symtom which trackdead on with rabis i have an extensive scince backgroun my father is dr pe vipperman jr google the my brother is dr jeff vipperman pse googel the name my real nais b. keith vipperman 850-575 4760 708 shulet ct tallhasse fl 32304 the fact that i am calm enough to type this is actually a bad bad nerologicl sign or eather that god is lifting me up at a time of exteme need imay indeed be wrong but my life may just be worth trying to save. my best take is evenif i got to johns hopins tonigh t by jet some how some we way it still might not be enough i had reat bitefrom feral cat every thing say byt the bood the chance of rabies is slim to none the chance of me actually having an allergic reaction to the actual rabies vaccine were slim to none pleas chek the tallahasse hospital not tmh but i cant remembe i;m typing knowing my sympeoms are increasing i would want any one any where for any reason to cal 352 265 0050 this is a numv\be at sds shands teaching hosopital in gainesvillle they have to give out punch any button talk to anyone who anwers and try to get them to connect youto vanessa in the er before 12:30 tonight and i may be willing bet my actual life towait longer to try and get it right the first ime with me supply the rel data to a rea ; neuro sssssurgeon or maybe even preffable first a neurobioly resrerchher ona very very high level and i migh just be al\be to make sense in how to save my lif a little girl ina document case survive rabies after the nerosymtoms starte i think i understand how maby more would be expected i would want and think god would want real peopelto try i may infact have cancer or something else causing the symptoms but they track ded on with rabies and i have the actualleduacationand have done myu homework along the way using google scholor i be cal or any one who sees this and i don't beg please try connet any dot anywher with any one

"But God's standard of goodness is vertical and unapproachable in our own strength. He is "high and lifted up" as Isaiah saw Him. By His standard, all of us fall far short."

On the contrary. According to the Bible, God murdered the entirety of the human race with the exception of Noah's family. I on the other hand have never killed anyone.

Or am I 'falling short' by not throwing a temper tantrum and killing thousands of people?

Such amazing twaddle. Do people really believe this stuff?

Another common and arrogant two paragraph note from Mr. Thomas. Do all panelists get paid by the submission as opposed to the length of the essay? If so, he and Mr. Colson have well more than just a conservative form of Christianity in common...

Mr. Thomas has no knowledge of God, or what "finds acceptance in God's eyes", given this input.

This is the Truth,"-- and nothing else --"

I hate spiritual arrogance and elitism.

Question for Mr. Thomas:

In the last line of your statement, you indicate that the only thing that God finds acceptable is membership in the Christian faith. You further quote Paul as stating that no act we can commit will result in us being righteous, again indicating that the only important aspect of our lives is to be in the correct religion; and compared to being a Christian, any individual good qualities we may possess are like "filthy rags".

Let me pose three names to you:

Mohandes Gandhi: Hindu. Lived a life of service to his county, exemplified duty and self-sacrifice, stopped civil wars by his personal example.

Anne Frank: Jew. Personification of childish innocence, died in a Nazi death camp.

Yourself: Devout Christian.

Which of you are good enough to be acceptable to God? Does the fact that you were born into a Christian family mean that you are automatically a better person than Mr. Gandhi or Miss Frank, and more deserving of Heaven?

There is a point here, if god's construct of justice is so far beyond us, we may as well give up being good.(hm christian history explained in a nutshell.)

Look, if you want to cower before a wrathful god whose hand prevents us from falling into the fires of hell over which we are suspended by a spider's thread. Go for it. (See Johnathon Edwards, ca Puritans)

But I believe in a god that says along the lines of "I know, I only gave you partial understanding of the truth, I love you, I am here for you even if you make a mistake, and I will never forsake you."

But then I could be deluding my self, oops just lost that standard, now where do we put those standard bearers when we go to war?

hariaum

Publ1us, the man was far from perfect, but I don't feel that undermines the value of the quote in this context. That would be kind of like rejecting the Declaration of Independence because Thomas Jefferson owned slaves, and had a long-standing affair with one of them.

The idea that any manifestation of the divine should display compassionate, just and generous behavior, or they don't deserve the worship of their followers seems to me to be very valid. If your concept of the divine is jealous, bigoted, testy and mean, how much incentive do you have to rise above that behavior? Do you even view such behaviors as wrong, if your concept of God manifests them?

To Gimpi:

Marcus Aurelius may have been quite the philosopher, but do you really think he's safe to say, "I am not afraid?" As far as Roman Emperors go he was angelic, but he still killed thousands in his wars and permitted the slaughter of thousands in gladiatorial games. If I were him, I might be a little insecure in my own "goodness."

So being a Christian means rejecting the idea that actions speak louder than words.

I serve my Gods out of love, not fear.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid." -- Marcus Aurelius

Posted by: MyraRubinstein on the Herb Silverman essay.

Sorry for picking this up, Myra, but I was so excited about it, I wanted to share it in response to Cal. I've never been able to get behind the "unjust God" concept of Christianity that he seems to represent.

The Aurelius quote above is so different, and to me, so much better than Cal's statement, "Only the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse us from our sin and it is that cleansing and His blood only -- and nothing else -- that finds acceptance in God's eyes."

I'm sorry, but if someone being kind, helping others, and living the kind of life that makes the world a better place is worthless to God, while someone encouraging hatred, (think Fred Phelps, Father Coughin, the KKK) but believing as Cal does is welcomed by God (in his view,) well, I'm uncomfortable with that view.

In my view, unjust gods are unworthy of worship. (Yay, Aurelius and Myra.) To condemn the majority of people who have ever lived to eternal torment for what mounts to a difference of opinion, I can't make that into justice. No one has ever been able to explain the traditional Christian notion of salvation to me in a way that gets me past this problem. Any takers?

"Only the blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse us from our sin and it is that cleansing and His blood only -- and nothing else -- that finds acceptance in God's eyes."

This sounds like the chanting of a rabidly disturbed child who sits on the floor, covers his ears, rocks back and forth, and repeats to himself over and over the phrases that validate his pathologically insular view of the world.

Since when do mass murdering narcissists set the standard for goodness?

Would your honor please direct the witness to answer the question.