The Devil's Avocation

A good short note by Mr. Cal Thomas.

However it doesn't take a scholar to strongly disagree with this statement made in the 2nd paragraph, "That is why the world He made was perfect before Satan seduced our first parents."

This is not accurate in the least. Six times in chapter one of Genesis, God found the things he created to be good and in Gen. 1:31 that it was ...very good. All perfection God kept it to himself his ways, his Law and his Will. It is God who is perfect not his creatures.

Matter of fact, this same world is going to be done away with for another, therefore if this one would have perfect. There would be no need to replace with the next.

A synopsis of two Satanic-belief religions: (for those eyes that have not seen)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.
www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

On Satan, etc.:

One of the many translations of heb. "the satan" is "obstructionist." In the Hebrew Bible and in Judaism, Satan like everything else, is a creation of God. He represents the obstruction, the problems in all their myriad forms on the path to Tikkun Olam (healing, perfecting the world, which is the task of Jews). The principle of obstruction exists so that Human may have free will.

There is no hell in Judaism. "Sheol," mentioned in the Tanakh (Hebrew Bible, Bible, "OT") is not to be equated with hell.

The serpent in Genesis is neither "the Satan" (common noun) nor the later "Satan" (obstructionist, prosecuting attorney, accuser, challenger, etc.).

For a good introduction to the myth of the serpent, the serpent in Judaism (Genesis), the serpent in Christianity, see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_(symbolism)

A few other noteworthy facts (short list, highlights only)

Virgins do not give birth.

Men do not walk on water.

"God" does not have children, is not incarnate, etc.

No entity raises the dead.

Corpses don't move from their tombs, graves, etc.

Folks don't get resurrected.

Sight for the blind, mobility for the disabled is
not willed for some by another, but enabled for those with differential diagnoses for which medical treatment exists (e.g, surgery, physical therapy, medicinal approaches)

A few bible flaws:
Pi doesn't equal three

The earth is not a circle, it is a three dimensional obloidal sphere. Nor does it have four corners.

The sun should be created before the plants as plants need sunlight to photosynthesize.

Bats aren't birds.

Hares don't chew cuds.

The sky is not a solid structure (firament) with windows.

The sun does not move around the earth.

Insects do not have four legs.

Fowl do not have four legs.

People do not live to be 600 years old.

The Israelite population went from 75 to several million in a few hundred years.

A brass serpent and a pole will not cure a snakebite.

If goats breed while looking at streaked poles, they will not have streaked kids (telegony).

Giants do not exist and never did.

Unicorns do not exist.

The earth is not suspended in space by pillars.

Prayer will not cure you of illness (most Christians go to doctors when ill).

The moon does not produce its own light.

According to scripture, congenitally disabled children are made that way by God, not due to unfortunate genetic mutation.

Noah's ark is an impossibility.

It is impossible to cover the entire earth with the water contained within it, even including the polar ice caps.

Dead seeds do not germinate.

The deaf and mute are not possessed by the devil.

Kert1 says:
"Pam,
I come here to have good conversation and talk with people that may have different opinions."

Sorry, Kert, I don't believe you. I think you come here to "testify" to your faith, and nothing more.

KERT1: "... you aren't even willing to accept commonly held knowledge."

And what might that be? It clearly can't be "commonly held" if I, and others, don't hold it. Still, I'm curious as to what you think it is.

KERT1: "I really can't discuss with these premises. People that believe differently than you really do have good, logical, beliefs."

Kert, you are typical of your ilk - as soon as someone starts questioning your "infallible" book, you suddenly don't have time for, or interest in, talking anymore.

The things I've pointed out about the bible are things you can easily check for yourself - I didn't make them up. I think you don't want to discuss them with me because you have no answers.

And BTW, I don't actually think that people who hold "beliefs" *are* logical. At least not to that extent. I know of people who are logical in other parts of their lives who nonetheless hold irrational beliefs that were drilled into their heads as children. These people just seem to be very good at compartmentalizing.

But fine, don't talk to me - discuss with Gladerunner - you weren't doing too well there, either.

As to flaws in the bible - I didn't give you any (would've made the post too long), but you might want to check this site for a few:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/theism/christianity/criticism.html

Pam,
I come here to have good conversation and talk with people that may have different opinions. That being said, I don't think this conversation is going anywhere. You obviously have your beliefs and that is good but you aren't even willing to accept commonly held knowledge. I really can't discuss with these premises. People that believe differently than you really do have good, logical, beliefs.

I have met logical people on both sides and am happy to talk with them. But this is just not productive. I hope others will carry on some debate that is more productive.

I just hope and pray that in spite of you desire not to meet him that you truly see God some day.

Conlin,

Thanks for your clarification.

Just switch the names in my comment and it´s equally valid: “Let me assure you that *Cal Thomas does not need help. He lives and thrives among people like Kert1 and *ThomasBaum*. All they live in a kind of magic world.”

Peace

JUSTACOMMENT

Colin,

Let me assure you that ThomasBaum does not need help. He lives and thrives among people like Kert1 and Cal Thomas. All they live in a kind of magic world. As you said, they make a lot just from fresh air…
-----------

Hi Jac.
I was not referring to Mr.Baum. If you check I addressed it to Mr Thomas, that is Cal Thomas, the guy in the picture at the top, with the self-satisfied smirk that he got from the Buddha.
I try never to comment on Mr Baum who is, in my opinion legally cuckoo, and not worthy of comments.

Back to the original column, Rev. Thomas says:

"Does Satan Exist?

"Yes, I encounter him several times a day. He constantly urges me to give in to my lower nature and do things that are ultimately destructive and to thwart God's plan for my life."

I just have to ask. Exactly what about this state of affairs made you decide you'd better try to seek as much political and social power as you possibly could, at whatever cost, and even today insist you know what's 'evil' in the lives of other Americans to this *day,* sir?

When you say that your 'Satan' constantly tempts you to your 'baser instincts' (please dont' TMI me, here) and *then* present yourself as representing some 'Absolute Moral Authority' advocating for political policies based on *apparently *assuming* or at least *getting off like* *my* marriage must be even baser, if you're so 'divil-bothered.' ...

I have to submit: You are not. Mature. Enough. For. What. You. Arrogate. To. Yourself. In. The. Name. Of. Your. God. Sport.

Most especially about my sex and married life. as an American. Every chance you get.

I mean, hey. Some Christians accorded high esteem have claimed to be vexed by devils.

It often went bad.

Some of them went, 'Whoa. I'm vexed by devils. Could be I'm totally f'n compromised. I think I'll take some time to myself.'

Instead of spreading the vexation.

Dig?

Sanabitur,

Thanks for your comments and for the link. Quite interesting.

About the insightful posters they used to concentrate in Susan Jacoby thread, but recently they have dispersed because a high level of personal attacks, lot of trolling and childish behavior. Now they come and go depending of the topics and who are posting.

DanielintheLionsDen, Gladerunner, Pamsm and others have been posting interesting thoughts in this thread.

Peace

Cal, Cal, Cal,

You added some bible "thumping" to make your point i.e.
"especially what Jesus said in Luke 10:18: "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven." satan is the great denier. If you deny him, he is having his way with you."

But did the simple preacher man aka Jesus really utter said passage???

NO, he did not according to most contemporary historic and NT exegetes!!

e.g.

It appears only in Luke's gospel i.e. a single attestation and was added late in the "game i.e. 80-120 CE.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/Crossan_Inventory

JUSTACOMMENT WROTE ATMANMAN:
Your ironic style is even more subtle than mine, and that may confuse some readers on how to react.

You are about right that...I have never seen such literal commentators...a lot more noise than signal too.

"Who is this that darkens counsel By words without knowledge?" Job 38:2

What men believe about God tell us more about man than God. I thought the
ON FAITH board looked really interesting
as the WP comments are more sophisticated
than most. But, alas, I am quite disappointed so far. I hope the insightful
ones only post on the weekends and are
just getting up.

Job captures the Christian Myth
but requires metaphorical understanding
to appreciate it.

I don't think most here are ready for
Carl Jung's "Answer To Job" or his contention that God in unconscious most of the time.

http://www.cgjungpage.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=727&Itemid=40

Those who struggle to understand "A Catcher in the Rye," may not do well
with Joyce's "Ulysses."

Few here, sadly, would understand that
metaphor.

CECILG

Thank you for your response. I would also like to respond to some of what you wrote.

You wrote, " We obviously see the world and the sources of knowledge very differently, and that is OK with me provided neither of us tries to silence the other."

I think that in some ways we look at the sources of knowledge of the physical world very similiar but I do not think that that is the only way that we can acquire knowledge nor do I think that the physical world is all that there is.

It seems that many a scientist and inventor has come upon some of their ideas in some kind of "intuitive" or "aha", so to speak, way. Of course, with the physical world there are ways to, check it out, so to speak.

I think as far as, "silencing the other", is wrong. There does seem to be people on both sides, so to speak, that think "silencing the other" is the right thing to do whereas both are legitimate avenues of endeavor.

One of the things about "knowledge" is the fact that it can be used in a variety of ways and anyone should be able to see that we, humans, have the capacity to use "knowledge", shall we say, in not a nice way.

You also wrote, "Claims of knowledge via revelation cannot be proven false, but I contend that you cannot prove them true."

I agree, and I have written before that God, in His Way, is the One Who will prove it.

Then you wrote, " but my belief is that no one knows ANYTHING about God. A person may belief whatever they choose, but my belief is that any claim they (you) make is best understood as a belief."

I can understand you saying this, I disagree, but I understand. And one of the reasons that I can understand this is because I "know" that there are some who speak "supposedly" for God and I "know" they don't since about all that some of them know about God is His Name.

As I have said before, if God was even remotely like what some, that know His Name, say about Him, there is no way that I would want to have anything to do with Him.

Some choose themself to speak for God and there have been and are others whom God chooses. God is not the egomaniac that, sorry to say, some seem to think Him to be.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

To Atmanman,

Thanks for your response.

The alternatives you describe must be illuminating for those willing to do whatever needed to get salvation.

What I’m not sure is how they are going to interpret post like yours and mine. Your ironic style is even more subtle than mine, and that may confuse some readers on how to react.

Let me give you an example. When I went to visit the Mormon Temple in Salt Lake City, Utah, we were toured by a very intelligent young lady that came from other country as volunteer missionary. While talking about the salvation in their church she mentioned that for those that follow the principles of the church there was going to be a kind of gathering afterlife with all people that you cherished more during life, specially your family. I asked about wife. She said obviously yes, specially your spouse. Then I asked what if you were divorced three times. After a little surprised by the question she said you will be reunited with the first one. Then I inquired what if you divorced her because you were truly incompatible and being together was a hell for both. The young and intelligent lady showed a nervous smile while trying to come with the best answer possible. Then after seconds of tense hesitation, she went by the book. She affirmed that their religion only recognized the first marriage for the afterlife gathering. But at that time the group of tourist was laughing out loud. Even she ended up laughing too.

Did she questioned how ridiculous was to believe in this kind of thing. I sincerely doubt it. Today she must be a prosperous pastor in her country.

Peace to all

Kert1:
"He does give us our choice, but they do have consequences. How this could cause someone to hate God is honestly beyond me."

Kert, none of us who are arguing with you hate God. We don't believe (Really! Honestly!) that he exists. You can't hate what doesn't exist.

PART 2

As to flourishing, have you read “Guns, Germs and Steel” by Jared Diamond? It might give you a different take on why they flourished. Hint: It had nothing to do with God.

KERT1: “I can find plenty of evidence for it and no reasonable evidence against it. While much can’t be proven, it makes sense believe to what we can’t prove since it is reliable in what can prove.”

I would be very interested to hear your evidence, and also what you think the bible can prove.

And if you can’t find any reasonable evidence against it, I’m betting that you haven’t looked very hard. I find most believers carefully avoid anything that questions their faith.

May I suggest Dan Barker’s “Godless”? He was an evangelical preacher from his teens until his late thirties. Then he began to read things other than religious treatises. A little reading led to yet more…

His book is a gentler read for believers than those written by life-long atheists and scientist such as Dawkins. I recommend it.

KERT1: “I assure you God is loving and just.”

Thanks, but you have no personal knowledge of this beyond the bible, and I can read as well as you can.

KERT1: “The Old Testament is full of God’s judgment as well as mercy (you kind of left that part out, I noticed). I really can’t defend God’s actions and don’t need to. He is God and I am not. He knew the hearts of these people and we don’t.”

He “knew the hearts” of little children? And found them so wanting that they deserved to be torn apart by bears? Because they teased someone about his baldness? Jeeze, Kert, have you ever known a small child?? And you think that not only the Beth-shemites who were worshipping him, but 50,070 of their countrymen all had such evil hearts that they deserved to be struck dead?? Do you *really*? Are you that much of a monster, Kert?

I find very little “mercy” in the OT. Perhaps you can suggest some examples…? Maybe sparing Noah’s family from the flood that killed *every other living thing*? Or sparing Lot, when he destroyed *everyone else in the city*? Pardon me if I’m not impressed.

Is Job an example of his “mercy”? After killing all of Job’s children, and destroying everything he had – to settle a bet with Satan that Job was so pious and “perfect”, that even if God took everything from him, Job wouldn’t curse him. A *BET*.

Perhaps you see it as merciful that he allowed him to have more children of the same numbers and sexes, eh? Tell me, Kert, would that be OK with you? Would you just blow off losing a child as long as you knew you could have others?

Or maybe he was merciful when he told the Israelites to put to the sword every living thing in the cities they conquered (including babies, pregnant women, and animals), except, in some cases, the virgin women – those they could take for their own pleasure, and keep them as slaves.

In fact, the bible shows God to be an egomaniacal, murderous thug.

PART 1

KERT1: “The Bible is a highly scrutinized book that has yet to show a serious (or really any) flaw.”

Oh, my. Do you really believe this? What if I show you some flaws? What if I show you a whole *boatload* of flaws?

And “highly scrutinized”? Maybe by a few, many of whom thus became atheists (Dan Barker, Michael Schermer, Bart Ehrman…). Most believers never look closely at the bible, learn its history, or read any textual criticism. In fact, few ever actually read it from cover to cover, despite supposedly basing their lives on its contents. Quite amazing, really.

KERT1: “It is accurate geographically and historically.”

It isn’t, you know.

Do you say these things because someone has told you so, or from your own research? If the latter, you need to do a bit more.

KERT1: “It predicts the future in a way humans can’t (i.e. Christ’s Death on a cross, Israel’s reemergence, etc)”

It’s pretty easy to “predict” things that have already happened. There were no “bibles” until well after the time that Jesus (if ever there were such a person) was supposed to have died. There is evidence that the story of Jesus was, ummm, “embellished” (not to say completely fabricated) to fit the Jewish oral traditions about a messiah. And Israel’s reemergence was entirely engineered, based on the bible. Does “self-fulfilling prophecy” ring any bells?

KERT1: “A large part of Western civilization is based on Biblical theology and there has never been a society that flourished as great.”

If you’re talking about the USA, it was never founded on theology at all. Far from it.

European nations, while composed (especially during the Dark Ages) of very religious people, still had political systems that were not theological. Many kings, while nominally deferring to the pope, found ways to circumvent him, if not openly defy him. And in their own countries, they were the heads of both church and state – the archbishops answered to them.

justacomment wrote :
This concept of salvation is not easy to deal with. Salvation is a game of chance

HOW TO HEDGE YOUR SALVATION BET:

Who would not want an all powerful friendly God who looks out for you and your loved ones?
Much better than the old God, who was always trying to trick you like in Job,
or punish you like Moses for hitting the rock too many times.

You should make your Salvation contract in advance with the freindly God, as you might be distracted at the last moment.

Do you want to take your body with you? I can see you wanting to hold on to it...even
Islam has "resurrection of the body." Do you want your baby body or your adult body,
or your half-decomposed body to fly up from the grave?

Now if you want to do the Catholic thing, you should leave time to say a
"good act of contrition," but be careful and make sure you have gotten
a "plenary" not "partial" indulgence or you could wind up in Purgatory.
.( St. Augustine described the fires of cleansing as more painful than anything a man can suffer in this life,[24] See Wiki... Don't forget that this all assumes you were Baptized first,,,don't wait until
you are on your death bed, like St. Augustine. I would go with submersion, as a Baptist
told me that the Catholic "sprinkling" does not count, and you don't want to be wrong on this.)
You can always try "baptism of desire" if you have waited to the last moment, and no
water is available.
Email me atmanman1@aol.com if you are having trouble with this and are not a wacko as it is very late and I am falling asleep.

Nobody has proved that Satan exists. Still there are a lot of religious people that do believe in Satan. Their belief is linked to the concept of salvation, because they believe that Satan is one of the greatest obstacles to their salvation. As an example at hand, Cal Thomas fights with Satan for salvation every day and apparently Cal always wins. If not, he still he has a chance to repent.

This concept of salvation is not easy to deal with. Salvation is a game of chance. You commit a mortal sin and the rule is one strike and you are out to the hell for ever if you die before manifest to God that you are a sinner, you are repented and begs his pardon. So the key is to have an opportunity window of time for repenting before you die.

But not for a minute think to go to Las Vegas or Atlantic City looking for expert advice on odds. God has a kind of supernatural chip implanted in your soul so he can remotely monitor what you are thinking. He will know if you played odds and held the repentance because your chances to die soon were low.

Still more complicated is what happens if after committing a mortal sin a terrible accident kills you before actually establishing a remote communication with God to tell him you are sorry. Based on past experiences you sooner or later were going to arrive to repentance, but death got in the middle. I will not even try to anticipate what God will do, but would like to hear about it from our Christians and Catholic friends.

Peace

Colin,

Let me assure you that ThomasBaum does not need help. He lives and thrives among people like Kert1 and Cal Thomas. All they live in a kind of magic world. As you said, they make a lot just from fresh air…

Peace

Gladerunner;

I was just reading your posts here,
very clear logic, inescapably true.

Brings to mind something I read the other day;

If you could reason with religious people
there wouldn't BE any religious people.

Dear Mr Thomas.

I 'experimented' with LSD when I was younger,
and I didn't hallucinate half as much as you do on fresh air.

Get help.

The Devil is real...I saw a picture of him in the newspaper. He is more evil than
Al Pacino in that movie, and he is easier
to spot.
He has a pointy hat, really expensive shoes,
lives in a palace with a lot of priceless
art and marble floors. He was making
all these Africans worship him by some kind
of voodoo using a tiny dead body on a stick,
and he was trying to sucker them into
getting rid of their condoms, so he could
watch them suffer and die in front of their
children.

Thomas Baum

Thank you for your well written and thoughtful answer my question concerning how you know what you claim to know. I indicated in my post that I am an empiricist. You indicate in your reply that you have knowledge as the result of personal interactions with God, i.e. from various personal revalation from God. We obviously see the world and the sources of knowledge very differently, and that is OK with me provided neither of us tries to silence the other.

Claims of knowledge via revelation cannot be proven false, but I contend that you cannot prove them true. And that is probably not a concern for you. You KNOW from your personal experiences that the things you say about God are true.

Every thing you have said about God and your relation thereto may be one hundred percent accurate, but my belief is that no one knows ANYTHING about God. A person may belief whatever they choose, but my belief is that any claim they (you) make is best understood as a belief.

We could discuss this at great length, but to no avail. Knowing that we disagree I think we both move forward as best we can.

Respectfully --Cecilg

Kert1

At least you have admitted that all these ideas about Satan and the Devil did not come from the Bible. That is a commonly held misconception. So, if the Bible is the primary determiner of what is true, then why is Satan-belief and Devil-belief promoted by Christians? Even their own Book does not require it.

Kert1: (continued)
“I suppose I could make up my own morals and call myself just but I really can’t trust my life merely to my intellect”

How can there be so many gods, and yet so few moral absolutes?

This is a common issue, it is based on a dubious axiom. That a god is required for morality to exist.
Look at a pack of animals, I’ll use dogs since I have five of them and watch them a lot. They get along most of the time.. they are all mutts of various breed types. They scrap occasionally, but most of the time they are quite comfortable around each other. There are obvious rules though.. there is a hierarchy. When Bailey enters the room everyone submits to her rules of behavior. She isn’t mean or angry, she’s just the leader. When Bailey’s not around the vice - leader may vary, rules change a little. A little more horseplay, a little more barking, etc.
You could say that there is a moral code at work. Even this macro society of dogs knows that there are things they can or cannot do based on where they are and who else is among them. They know not to hurt each other and they know that is risky to try to take something away from one of the others. They did this, built this code without even being aware that that is what they were doing. Their instinct to survive, and instinct to live amongst others drives them be successful in any effort, food, protection, reproduction. This only works if they get along with the others. Ravenous killers would not survive long as a type as that is not a socially acceptable or successful trait among social animals. The most successful animals to survive and evolve in groups would of course be those that learned to get along.
Rules against killing, theft, lying, respect for elders, etc. predate the Ten Commandments not only by an enormous amount of time, but also by species. There are many, many species of lower animals that live well within the confines of the Ten Commandments, minus the ‘one and only god’ parts.
There is nothing unique in Christianity as far as morality. Other cultures have those same tenets woven into their culture indistinguishable from this found in Christianity, just without those ‘one and only god’ parts.
You don’t need Christianity, or any other religion to be a good person. All you need is to want to be good, for the sake of your own self esteem, for the sake of society, for family’s sake, etc. there are about a billion reasons to be a good, decent person that do not require the creation of mythical beings, priests, cosmic justice, and eternal life, or a universe construct based on stories told by bronze age fortune tellers, wizards and mystics.

“I would be dreadfully lost without his teaching or his guidance and I give him the glory.”
You are relying on the comforting words of an imaginary friend. What this friend tells you that comforts you, you already know. You already know what is right and wrong, you’re just refusing to take credit for knowing it.

Peace.

Kert1: “Our pastor recently spent 3 weeks discussing the reasonableness of Christianity and it was amazing to see the logical reasons why we believe.”

I would love to see that Kert1, I really would. I am baffled though.. why was this discussion even needed? I assume he was speaking to Christians, who have, pardon the phrase ‘already bought the product’ . What was the reason given for holding the discussion?
Could you provide some of the bullet points of the discussion?

“I have searched in life and looked at different paths but I can assure that the Christian life is the only reasonable way I have seen.”
Sometimes we only find exactly that which we are looking for.
What is it about Christianity that attracted you? Were you raised as a Christian or is this a recent awakening? Have you ever NOT been at least surrounded by Christian influences?

“I can see no other reason for the creation of humans”
This statement says a lot, and speaks to my last point. Your assumption in this statement is that we humans were 1. Created. and 2. That there was a reason (plan) for being created.
Both these assumptions point to an already existing belief in a creator god with an intent for humanity. “nor the existence of good,” continues your preconceived bias. You see ‘good’ as a unified force or entity or energy. That is strictly a religious concept.
“I assure you that I have sinned before God and there is no other way I can find to get back to God than by Christ’s sacrifice”
Once again these are strictly Christian concepts. If you feel or felt guilt for something you did and feel the need to repent that is fine. It is not something you were born with. You learned this behavior, this guilt, as surely as you had to be told what was a sin and what was not.. These are not universal concepts among all humans, as you should know from your studies.
So going back to my point, it is my strong opinion that you found Christianity to be the answer for you based on the fact that you already had a life that was steeped in Christian teachings. You may not have behaved, been a good Christian before whatever epiphany occurred, but you certainly already had enough indoctrination to make Christianity the most comfortable and easy choice. The same would be true if you were trying to learn a second language, any second language and you discovered you seemed to have a ‘knack’ for Spanish. Would this be all that bizarre or hard to imagine if you had grown up in a heavily Hispanic neighborhood?
I am not criticizing you for this at all. It’s your choice to make.
(continued)

CECILG

You asked, "How do you KNOW what you claim to KNOW?"

I have said that I know God is a Trinity because I have met God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and that the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

I have also said that I know that satan is real because God allowed satan to come down and "work me over" for 24 plus hrs off and on.

I believe that God allowed satan to do that.

I have also said that I believe that there are quite a few people that seem to think that know and believe mean the same thing, but they do not mean the same thing.

God revealed Himself to me and I know that it was Him. One could ask, how did I know and all that I could tell them is, I just knew.

I also believe that God allowed satan to do what he did concerning me for more than one reason but some of those reasons is that I needed to know that satan is real and that satan is a formidable adversary.

These are not all of the experiences that I have had concerning things that one could say are outside of the "physical" realm of our existence.

I definitely believe that these "experiences" are not repeatable, so to speak, in the scientific way of looking at things.

My "job" is to speak and these postings are one of the ways that I am attempting to do that.

If God was the piece of "garbage" that some "Christians" seem to think that God Is, then there is no way that I could see anyone wanting to have anything to do with Him.

There are things in the bible that I do not understand but there are also things in the bible that I do understand or one could say that I see what they mean.

I do not need to "know it all", but what I need to know, God will somehow or another let me know. God Is God, I'm not, I am just a messenger.

Whether one believes that God Is or doesn't believe, two of the things that I have written many times is something to think: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

They are both simple statements and to the point.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Glade,
I could respond to many of your points but I won’t since it doesn’t seem very useful at this time. I see the main underlying theme here is that you don’t think belief in God is reasonable. I am here to tell you that just isn’t the case.
I have searched in life and looked at different paths but I can assure that the Christian life is the only reasonable way I have seen. Our pastor recently spent 3 weeks discussing the reasonableness of Christianity and it was amazing to see the logical reasons why we believe. In short, I can see no other reason for the creation of humans, nor the existence of science, nor the existence of good, besides God. I assure you that I have sinned before God and there is no other way I can find to get back to God than by Christ’s sacrifice. I would be dreadfully lost without his teaching or his guidance and I give him the glory. This is my testimony I share with you.
To All,
I have to say I have no problem with a just God who chooses to save me and all who choose. I suppose I could make up my own morals and call myself just but I really can’t trust my life merely to my intellect. He is not a mere mortal that he should somehow need to earn our respect or love. He is God and he created me for his pleasure and it makes perfect sense for me to serve him willingly. He does give us our choice, but they do have consequences. How this could cause someone to hate God is honestly beyond me.
Someone else can give their own testimony. I wouldn’t mind.

Daniel,
I have read the Bible in its entirety several times. I agree there isn’t a lot about Satan but there is some information that I have referenced. I also learn from others who are much more knowledgeable about the subject. I think one should do both.
Well generally you don’t need to cite an authority to a book but since you asked I will tell. The Bible is a highly scrutinized book that has yet to show a serious (or really any) flaw. It is accurate geographically and historically. It predicts the future in a way humans can’t (i.e. Christ’s Death on a cross, Israel’s reemergence, etc) and the wisdom is tried and true. A large part of Western civilization is based on Biblical theology and there has never been a society that flourished as great. It has also personally changed my life and the lives of many others that testify.
I don’t believe the Bible is true because I say it but I can find plenty of evidence for it and no reasonable evidence against it. While much can’t be proven, it makes sense believe to what we can’t prove since it is reliable in what can prove.
PamSM,
I assure you God is loving and just. People love the first and hate second. The Old Testament is full of God’s judgment as well as mercy (you kind of left that part out, I noticed). I really can’t defend God’s actions and don’t need to. He is God and I am not. He knew the hearts of these people and we don’t. I trust you will try looking at some of the mercy of God next and try to even things out a little.

Often the responders to ON FAITH questions make strong “I KNOW” statements. My question is this: How do they (we) KNOW what we claim to know?

I believe that whatever knowledge humans may have is the product of empirical data – of sensory perception and experience. Knowledge (that tiny slice of reality that we claim to possess) is testable and verifiable. Any “I KNOW” claim is valid only to the extent it is testable and verifiable. If a claim (statement) cannot be tested and verified it should be restated as “I believe”. (Notice, please, that I began this paragraph with “I believe”.

Some of you (Christians in particular, and especially Cal Thomas) will disagree with me concerning the source of knowledge. It is not my purpose here to debate but to understand. Therefore, I ask again, How do you KNOW what you claim to KNOW?

Kert1: (Continued)
“ If you disagree, state your beliefs and tell me where you differ and why.”

My belief is that Heaven, Hell, God, Satan most likely do not exist. I can say that for the exact same reasons I stated in the example of the Island. I simply have seen no actual evidence whatsoever that they do, other than mentions in a single ancient text that is taken literally by a very, very few people. That and the word of those that DO believe it. Add to it that there are thousands of learned opinions as to what God, Satan, Heaven, Hell actually are and well, you maybe can see my problem. I suppose I could ‘pick one’ but frankly what is the point? They all can’t be correct, and my selection would be based entirely on my own personal biases, which may very well be flawed. What I believe, that there is no god, heaven, Satan, hell is my conclusion based on a preponderant, if not overwhelming lack of evidence that there is. You are the same way. There are many myths, gods, mystical stories that you do not believe in are there not? Why don’t you believe in Odin, or Thor or ‘Thlexfranmleg’? What is your evidence that they do not exist?

“ You did leave out the very important piece that any punishment we receive is deserved. “
If the punishment were like U.S laws, based on damage or harm to others, then I’d somewhat agree. But what God is punishing us for eternity for is for not loving him enough. Not calling his name enough, not putting him on a higher pedestal than everything else, not worshipping him enough. The first few commandments are all about him, him, him…. Even the New testament ‘new deal’ has first and foremost, God is first, love god above all else… followed by , oh yeah.. treat your neighbor as you would want him to treat you.
God is most concerned with your unflinching adoration for him above all else. He will punish you not just a little, not just once, but for all eternity for not loving him properly. Almost all other transgressions are forgivable according to many doctrines, except that one, the most selfish of them all.

“Even the saved deserve punishment for rebellion. The difference is they have turned back to God and he has mercifully forgiven. “
This is one seriously jealous and egotistical god.

“It really seems like you have a problem with authority and ironically benevolent authority.”
I don’t have a problem at all with earned or rational authority. I do not recognize God’s authority as benevolent since he is more concerned with a ‘loyalty oath’ to him than my actual behavior.

“I’m not sure what to say to someone who likens a perfectly loving God who has provided all blessings to a terrorist.” He is not ‘perfectly loving’, he does give up on souls, for all eternity. He does not give us free will, he gives us strictly limited options. He even sends out a thug to try to trick us, again and again and again. That’s just mean.

“I really hope you reconsider some day.”
No thanks… Why should I?

Kert1: “I am still looking for an honest argument as to why I or anyone else shouldn’t believe this.”
The real question is why you WOULD believe it. The person making a positive affirmation of a theory bears the burden of evidence.
Bear with me here..
If I read a book once and it said:
“There is a Texas-sized Island continent between South America and Africa called ‘Thlexfranmleg’. It has a calm tropical climate and is inhabited by peaceful and kind people who welcome visitors to their paradise. The central mountain range is home for a unique species of mountain goat that produces ample sweet milk and soft, fast growing fleece. The lagoons are filled with large scale-less soft boned fish aplenty that can be plucked out of the water by hand.
The temperature is a consistent 71 degrees, and because of the mountain range’s proximity to the ocean, it rains a little once per day at around one o’clock p.m. local time.
The natives all speak many languages and provide feasts for all visitors every evening. There are no shelters, huts or other dwellings as they are simply not necessary. “

Though It sounds truly wonderful, I simply can’t seem to verify its existence. It sounds great and even somewhat plausible, and I would absolutely love for it to be true. Unfortunately though, other than the one original text, and perhaps a few texts written about that original text, I simply can’t find substantiation. I look on maps and satellite images of the area it is supposed to be, but it is just not there. I can find no cruise ships, airlines or any other means of transportation that shows it as a destination. Though no history or geography books I have studied and researched specifically deny its existence and location, it simply isn’t mentioned in them at all. What am I to deduce from this? I found other books from other cultures… they mention something somewhat similar, though it’s location and name are different, and none of them mention the goats or the fish, one even has it as a small Oasis in the middle of the Australian desert, but it is inhabited by apes and cats rather than kind people. So I can’t really be sure if they are all even talking about the same thing…. Then there is that ancient organization of devout Thlexfranmleg believers. They all SAY it is true, though the only proof they offer is the original text. They cannot tell me where it is, how to get there, or come up with anyone that has ever been there, but they all swear it is there because the text says it is.

You are asking me why I should NOT believe it, but as you see, it is the person/text making the claim of its existence that needs to provide some evidence of its truth. To believe this story without some form of verification is irrational is it not?

(To be continued)

Kert1

I have read the Bible, and it does not say much about Satan or the Devil. I don't think you have read it, but just know of it second-hand; you base your Bible knowledge of Satan on hear-say, which means, other people's many-times told stories.

But even it did, how does citing the Bible's authority for itself prove that it it true? It would be like you saying that everything you say is true, because you said it, and therefore that is true, too.

Don't you get it? It doesn't make sense. There is no reason for anyone to follow this line of argument, except merely to be agreeable, or to end the conversation because of fatigue.

That is what I mean by using your brain. You are not using the human capacity of your brain; why not? If you choose no-nothing option to religious believe about God, Satan, or anything else, I suppose that is up to you. But you should not expect other people such as myself to turn off my brain, and follow you.

Wow, Kert1, did you even read anything that Gladerunner said, beyond the ego-crushing part that (s)he finds your statements facile?

Read this paragraph of his/hers again. Slowly. In fact, read it several times over, until it begins to sink in:

"God offers to protect us only from himself. God runs all aspects of the system , created it, made all the rules, installed the hazards and traps, sent agents to trip us up, and is not only the final judge, he is also the ultimate and only executioner."

You say:
“You did leave out the very important piece that any punishment we receive is deserved. Even the saved deserve punishment for rebellion."

What a sick worldview that is. I don't "deserve punishment." Certainly not *eternal* punishment of unending torment. That could only be dreamed up by a depraved and mentally ill bully.

You also say:
"It really seems like you have a problem with authority and ironically benevolent authority. I’m not sure what to say to someone who likens a perfectly loving God who has provided all blessings..."

And also all torments. You call that “perfectly loving”?? Have you read the Old Testament? Do you know that God sent 2 she-bears to rend to pieces 42 little children because they teased the prophet Elijah about his bald head? (2 Kings 2:23-24) Do you know that when the Ark of the Covenant passed through Beth-shemesh, that the people in the fields rejoiced, and some came to see it and made offerings to God, and praised him, but because they looked into the ark (which no one told them they shouldn’t do), God smote them dead – and not only them, but fifty thousand threescore and ten of their countrymen, as well. They were only trying to worship him. (1 Samuel 6:10-19)

I could go on for days with such examples. If this is “love”, I’ll do without it, thanks. If this is “just”, I’ll stick with American jurisprudence, which ain’t perfect, but it’s a lot better than this.

I can’t speak for Gladerunner, but I do have a *big* problem with this kind of authority. You go on at length about kings and kingdoms – but that’s what we came to this country to get away from. If you like it, the Middle East is still full of this system.

Gladerunner,
I approach a discussion with humility an honesty. I try to give my thoughts as my own and explain things as I see them without being dogmatic. I don’t appreciate people shoving things down my throat that aren’t facts and neither does anyone else. I believe I did give reasoning and could give more and citations are not necessary for my own thoughts. This isn’t a term paper it’s supposed to be friendly discussion. If you want more information or clarification just ask.
Most of my statements contain reasoning in their context. They my conclusions after doing my studying and research. Not all statements in a discussion need reasoning since they make sense in context. If you disagree, state your reason. By the way, stating some zany conclusion doesn’t make you seem intelligent. You just seem desperate attacking simple statements that I have said are an opinion.
I am still looking for an honest argument as to why I or anyone else shouldn’t believe this. If you disagree, state your beliefs and tell me where you differ and why.
Well I guess you understand most following God. You did leave out the very important piece that any punishment we receive is deserved. Even the saved deserve punishment for rebellion. The difference is they have turned back to God and he has mercifully forgiven.
It really seems like you have a problem with authority and ironically benevolent authority. I’m not sure what to say to someone who likens a perfectly loving God who has provided all blessings to a terrorist. I really hope you reconsider some day.

(Continued)
God offers to protect us only from himself. God runs all aspects of the system , created it, made all the rules, installed the hazards and traps, sent agents to trip us up, and is not only the final judge, he is also the ultimate and only executioner.
How is this not like an abusive spouse? ‘Love me and I will reward you, pass the loyalty tests or I will torture you, but I love you, I really, really do. You can’t run, you can’t hide because I love you enough to hunt you down and kill you wherever you go. But as long as you love me I promise that one day I will make it worth it…no, not today, sometime later, I’ll let you know when… you must have faith, must prove that faith or I will be forced (according to my own rules) to punish you…

“understand the questions you pose here but I also can see the root of pride”
I’m an atheist, ‘pride’ doesn’t present a problem for me..

“Surely if God is who he says he is we won't be able to totally understand his ways.”
If we cannot understand his ways, then we cannot understand his will, which means:
“We should be lining up our will with his and not the other way.”
Is going to be kind of tough.

When you say ‘we don’t understand all his ways’ You are essentially saying “I don’t know’ to the bigger questions. Why does god allow floods, massacres, etc.. Answer; “We do not fully understand his ways” which is exactly the same as “I don’t know” So what does faith in god provide you if not answers to the most important questions?

Okay I'm done for now... Thanks for your patience.

(Continued)
“I agree that these are bad things but God has promised to be with us through them all”
So what? God was with the father whose children were kidnapped, molested and brutally murdered… Imagine how much worse it would have been for that dad and his children had God not been there, thank god there was no suffering. Thank God he was there too… there to…. What exactly did God do? Make the father not feel quite as bad?

And don’t preach to me about good, I’m all about the good. I think most people choose to do good things most of the time, I do not look upon my tiny grandchildren and assume they are born with sin or evil in their hearts.

“But we need to get past these things and realize God is helping us through the bad things”
By doing what? Being a shoulder we can cry on while he allows the evil to take place?

“He will not allow people into his kingdom who are in complete rebellion.”
That’s a pretty liberal interpretation of who gets to heaven…. In fact I can think of no place in the bible, in any translation that states that hell is for rebels and rebels alone…. If it was only for rebels, then why all the temptation and testing and demands for praise?

“If people still choose to go the other way I can't understand how anyone could call that cruel.”

God created us, he gave us ’free will’ as a flaw. So you are correct, he doesn’t want mind-numbed robots. He gave us free will to question his very existence or mercy, yet if we actually exercise that gift… but wait there’s more… Free will was not enough. He also let loose a dark and evil tempter to challenge us. Time and time again Satan, god’s creature and agent, will tempt us with those things we desire the most. So just ‘free will’ was not sufficient , God tests our faith and loyalty constantly…. So it’s not enough to merely accept Jesus as lord and savior, we have to pass a life-long bold and tempting set of tests to make the grade. Then and only then will we pass muster. If we fail, god casts eternal punishment on our souls, never to be heard from again, abandoned.

Kert1: “I kind of feel like I was baited here. Apparently you weren't asking questions you didn't know about. Well I will try to clarify a couple things.”
You are correct.

“Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's convoluted.”
And might I say that it doesn’t mean it is not either.
Your answer was full of ‘I think’s and ‘maybe’s.. without definitive reasoning or citations.

“I think Satan is here because of his choices like us”

See what I mean…. You told me what you ‘think’ not what you know, nor do you supply logic or reasoning or source citation for your ‘knowledge’.
Example:
“I think Unicorns are responsible for crop circles, I really, really do…. I mean I have no evidence, or photos, or even a guiding document or philosophy that supports my opinion, but I really, really believe it. To my mind It explains everything about unicorns AND crop circles. At last, I can rest peacefully with the knowledge that crop circles are okay since it is unicorns, not dragons creating them.”

“I can't understand how someone would ultimately call following God difficult”
Who said it was difficult? It’s pretty simple.. Love god above everything else, love him continuously and tell others of your love, be ready to abandon all earthly wants to follow his will. Continue to praise his name despite all earthly trial and suffering. Do this and you will be rewarded with golden mansions, or virgins, or a peaceful eternity, harps, clouds, etc. (take your pick.)
That’s pretty simple.. after all who would not want all that? Oh, I forgot…. Do all this or he will abandon your soul and set it in a pit of flame for all eternity without pardon or parole.
So no, it’s not at all difficult to be bullied into submission, being a battered spouse is just as easy. Being held hostage by terrorists is just as easy.
(Continued)

Satan is an invention of the Abrahamic religions and their derivatives to control, manipulate, scare and otherwise make perpetually guilty God's children like the proverbial spider hanging on a thin web over the eternal fiery pits of hell.

Satan is the consequences of our own internal evil and weekness, not just what a church says he is to control us.

I have met Satan as a fine white seductive powder called cocaine. I have freed my life from him for over 14 years through the grace of God alone, and not through the help of some little-boy molesting priest, pointy-hatted cleric who granted me some penance in return for perpetual guilt and cash, or from the hateful, intolerant homophobic likes of Dobson in return for my vote for Sarah Palin.

DanielInTheLionsDen,
Yes, I believe these things. I couldn't write them if I didn't. Most of the information is from the Bible and the rest is from deducing things from what I know and observe. I guess you would refer to it as using my brain.
Thank you for suggesting I am an authority on this but the real authority is the Bible itself, and there are many that understand it better than I. I simply try to understand as best I can. I’m sure some Christians do believe differently than I, but generally I have found Bible believing Christians have these core beliefs. These are quite basic beliefs and the Bible seems clear on them. In the end I am more interested in finding the truth than who disagrees with me.
Well, I think it is quite obvious I am using my brain. I have formed a few somewhat cohesive thoughts together, so I will let them speak for themselves.
I’ve already stated my main source as the Bible. There are many authors that support my thoughts and I’m sure you can find plenty if you want to look up the subjects. Most of my personal teaching comes from my Church. Obviously I have my “sources”, you shouldn’t assume someone is just making stuff up. Most friendly discussions don’t involve sources but I would be happy to find some good books or find the Bible references on the subject if you really want to read up on it.
I don’t really believe we are descended from animals but I also don’t see any reason these beliefs are mutually exclusive. I think there is plenty of evidence in everyday life to see a evil force as well as a good force at work, even if you don’t call the force Satan.
Honestly, if you want to have a discussion, why don’t you state your own beliefs and defend them. These posts that just try to point out general so-called flaws are kind of annoying. I don’t see one point in your post that makes a real argument against what I believe.

The reason that Satan rebelled was that he foresaw an eternity spent in the presence of millions of grovelling bootlickers who worship this monstrous God.

Not that the myth is real, of course. But I'll be damned if I wouldn't have gone with him.

"Whirlpools whirl
And dragnets drag.
Hell is not the fire.
Hell is your belief
In yourself
As the Higher."

Mr. Thomas. The way to 'stop the Devil tempting your base nature' is not to externalize these conflicts.

Not to 'fight temptation' and presume others are as 'base' as you feel yourself to be.

If you believe in a good God of any kind, breathe with and respect love, what 'Creation' shows us and you, and, most especially, each other.

You have been here a long time speaking of 'The Ultimate and Only Good' ...when you *meant* 'I talk to the Devil daily and thus fear. I externalize this fear. I fear I'm 'evil,' too. So I try to ...what?'

There is goodness in you, sir.

Just not like you say, Reverend.

Breathe.

Cal.

What if you're *just wrong,* and dehumanizing yourself and most of the rest of the world in the process?

Frankly, I think it's your major ongoing monotheist damage: to claim there's absolute 'Good' there must of course be an absolute 'evil' to account for any nagging feelings that you might want to think about something or empathize before doing it.

I cry for you Christians, sometimes, it seems that you live on a precipice of becoming monsters, till you drink enough to do it, then justify it, and 'repent.'

By the Gods, sir, are you *really* 'tempted' to do horrible things, constantly?

Really?

I know you treat the *rest* of the world like we're a bunch of monsters only constrained by your vicarious Divine Will, but how in the ten thousand names do you *live* like that?

'Reverend?'

'God's Plan?'

You say this:

"Does Satan Exist?

"Yes, I encounter him several times a day. He constantly urges me to give in to my lower nature and do things that are ultimately destructive and to thwart God's plan for my life."

Reverend. How can I put this delicately.

How about,

OMGawdessWtF.... You want to tell me how unevolved and inferior my whole life is, ...call *me* 'evil,' while, apparently, your 'Devil' is daily tempting you to some kind of 'base' things you clearly otherwise wouldn't be 'tempted' to?

How does this make you some kind of 'Moral' dude?

Frankly, that kind of talk is no less *off the wall* when it comes from a pundit and preacher than it is from some drunken dude who can't govern himself, never mind arbitrate what's 'good and evil.'

Good Gods, man. You got this Devil of yours yammering at you all the time and you can't own your *self?*

So you take it out on the country?

Madness.

Goodness, child, is other than focusing on and fighting whatever guises your 'devil' presents to you.

That devil only has the power someone taught you to give it. There is no 'temptation.' You look at the world till you see it's not ours to be 'tempted' about.

Then you go meet it.

Now I have heard it all!

Satan, if you believe in that story book you call the bible, is one of God's beloved creatures. He created it and he stands by it.

Cal, do me a favor and grow up. There is a little childrens book written by a German with the title ( Which way, please, is to God???) Why don't you read it and then decide which God you want to believe in, if any?!?

Kert1

Do you actually believe the things that you have re-told here? Where did you get this information, and why do you think it is true?

It sounds like you are a real authority, but an authority on what? Some few Christians may believe what you have recited, but many others have variants on your story, some quite far a-field from what you have told. Which one is right?

You have a brain; why don't you use it? But even if you do not want to use it, you cannot expect someone like me to stop using mine. It is too much to expect people to believe all of the made up things that you have told, with no validation or source, except that you have heard it "somewhere" and you might even quote the originial source to prove the source is true.

As I said, use your brain. Otherwise why bother to resist the belief that we are descended from the lower animals?

GladeRunner,
I kind of feel like I was baited here. Apparently you weren't asking questions you didn't know about. Well I will try to clarify a couple things.

I don't think my answer was convoluted. If it is, could someone explain specifically? Just because you disagree doesn't mean it's convoluted.

I think Satan is here because of his choices like us. I think we have to make choices whether easy or hard. I think you fail to take into account that God has paved the way for us to him. He sacrificed his son and took our punishment and gives us all we need. Would you be happier if God forced us to follow him and made it "easy". I think that the choice of evil is simply the absence of following God. We would have this with or without Satan and the choice should be easy. Follow God and you get everything, don't and you lose everything. While I understand there can be difficulties there, I can't understand how someone would ultimately call following God difficult.
I think you have definitely cherry picked your happenings. You seem to completely forget good or thought of its origin. I agree that these are bad things but God has promised to be with us through them all. I don't think God punishes people just for being upset over horrible circumstances. But we need to get past these things and realize God is helping us through the bad things. I believe that evil in its essence is just the choice to not follow God. It must exist without forcing people to follow God and making them slaves. Therefore these circumstances are really just consequences for our actions. Instead of leaving God helps us and gives us the hope of eternity with him if we believe in him.
God is a God of love but he is also perfectly just. He will not allow people into his kingdom who are in complete rebellion. Especially since he has provided the way to follow him and paid the price himself. If people still choose to go the other way I can't understand how anyone could call that cruel. No king would ever allow someone into their kingdom who completely denies the king and refuses to ask forgiveness for their crimes. This doesn't work in any setting.
I understand the questions you pose here but I also can see the root of pride. I have had very many similar questions for God and I don't think it is necessarily wrong. It becomes wrong when start telling God, you have to be this way or your either evil or not powerful. Surely if God is who he says he is we won't be able to totally understand his ways. We should be lining up our will with his and not the other way. If we try this we ultimately turn our backs on God and that is not what anyone wants.

"He constantly urges me to give in to my lower nature and do things that are ultimately destructive and to thwart God's plan for my life."

How do you know what God's plan for you is? Maybe it isn't at all what you want to think it is.

"These occur because of the fallen nature of the world, which God did not desire."

How do you know what God desired? Do you two have personal get-togethers where God asks your opinion or tells you his secrets?

Thomas's comments (on this and every other issue) are proof (if anyone needed it) that humans (like him) have made God in their own image.

Of course, the ultimate hubristic claim of religious humans is that God made them in his image.

Who decided that? Humans, of course.

KERT1

Don't be so sure that you have it all figured out.

Have you ever thought that God's Plan just might be for Total Victory rather than the tie that you seem to be settling for?

It is called "Good News" not 'good enough news', isn't it?

Do you really think that God asked us to be more forgiving, more merciful than God?

God's Plan is for All of God's People and All of humanity are God's People, satan created nobody and nothing, he is a loser, a tie is totally unacceptable.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Kert1;
Thanks for your response.
“As for why God doesn't completely rid him from existence, that is a complicated question”
I disagree, it is a very simple and logical question. The answer, your answer is not only complicated, it’s convoluted.

“We have a choice to follow God to perfect paradise or Satan to eternal suffering. With no Satan, there is no choice and we are pretty much forced to follow God.”

So Satan is here to keep it from being easy to get to paradise? God wants us all to worship him, to praise him and he wants us all to sit with him for eternity. But it’s too easy to just want that, he has to test us all by deliberately creating a being or force to test us all. It’s not enough that we praise him, but we must praise him while our house burns down with our children still inside, we must praise him as we are assaulted, tortured or raped by another one of his creatures. We must praise him while lava and ash fill our air, while the seas rip apart our villages, while our loved ones are consumed by painful disease.
Would you demand this of your children, not accepting or allowing simple love or praise? Would you constantly test your children’s love and loyalty with pain, disease, poverty and death? Or would you just accept their love, appreciate their love, reward their good deeds?

“He is a powerful fallen angel and we alone are no match for him”
Yet God allows him to mingle amongst us, to tempt us to lead us astray, for thousands of years.

“At one point Satan will be cast down and made powerless but not until this world is done”
So this foregone conclusion we call the world is some sort of cosmic science project? A flea circus? A sick, perverse teasing of souls?
Your god may be a god of love in your mind, but were he here on earth he would be considered one seriously cruel monster.
God created us you say, then he created the creature that can lead us astray, allowing him free reign amongst us.
The existence of Satan, a fallen angel, either exhibits that god is not in full control, therefore imperfect, or that god is in control but has a pretty big mean streak.

Gladerunner,
God can and does limit Satan, since he could overpower all of humanity without restraint. He is a powerful fallen angel and we alone are no match for him.

Satan in some ways has no real power except what we give him, but unfortunately the world gives him a lot of power. The Bible describes him as a "roaring lion seeking whom he may devour". Notice he's just roaring and not attacking. I believe his power is mostly limited to what he can make us as humans do. As I said before, humans allow him much power.

As for why God doesn't completedly rid him from existance, that is a complicated question. Satan's fate is sealed along with his followers (humans and fallen angels). This is written about in Revelation. At one point Satan will be cast down and made powerless but not until this world is done.

The obvious question is why he doesn't do it now. I think this all comes back to free will. We have a choice to follow God to perfect paridise or Satan to enternal suffering. With no Satan, there is no choice and we are pretty much forced to follow God. All can call on the name of Jesus and be saved but we know that a greater number will choose to follow Satan instead.

I don't know if this is a perfect explanation but we can always ask God when we get to heaven. Of course this is assuming we have asked forgiveness and folled Jesus. I do think this does give us an idea of God nature and why he still allows Satan some power.

Cal's pontificating about the internal motivations of God don't make much sense.

But then, I guess it takes all kinds to make a world.

"He is limited by God in what he can do"
Why is satan limited by God? If god can limit him, why doesn't he just limit him completely? Is the all-powerful god powerless to get rid of him? What kind of twisted diety would allow pure evil to run almost amok among his children, tempting them, bothering you several times a day? Or is he god's tool? The thugish heavy that goes around stirring stuff up so God can ride in and be a hero?
Makes no sense.