Religiously Good, Bad and Ugly in 2009

Farnaz2: I'd like to know more about what other religions have to say about "damnation" and the like.

The lore of Asatru, the religion from which the English language originally gets the word "hell", talks about a place called Nastrond, which is described in two ways that I know of, neither pleasant. You get there by being a truly evil person, not by being born a human being, or by making the occasional bad judgment.

"Hell" is the English form of the name of a daughter of Loki. She is charged by Odin with the care and feeding of the unremarkable dead, which means most of us. By her own choice, she isn't much to look at, but she takes her job seriously, and in that context she seems to be benign. The food in her hall is reputedly quite good. Torment and punishment are not on the menu.

When the Christians made their way into Britain, bent on doing what many Christians seem to need to do, they co-opted her name to mean Hades, which the Christians borrowed from the Greeks and then redecorated according to John's particular nightmare. I doubt they asked her permission. One might wonder what she thinks of all this.

Steven T Abell
Author of DAYS IN MIDGARD: A THOUSAND YEARS ON

TIME TO TAKE THOSE CAPTURED 'SUICIDE BOMBERS' AND PUT THEM ON TV ++++ WITH MAJOR COVERAGE ++++ SAYING THEY'D BEEN 'TRICKED.'

BY ANALOGY TO VIETNAM, UNTIL THOSE IN POWER STARTED HAVING THEIR SONS & DAUGHTERS SERVE AS SUICIDE BOMBERS [IN VIETNAM, IT WAS THE DRAFT] THOSE IN POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD WILL CONTINUE TO USE ++++ CHEAP LABOR ++++ I.E., SOMEONE ELSE'S SON OR DAUGHTER ++++ TO DO THE DIRTY WORK. AND THEY WILL SEEK OUT VICTIMS TO CARRY THEIR SUICIDE ATTACKS AMONGST THE INJURED.

DERANGED INDIVIDUALS, ESPECIALLY DUE TO DRUG OR ALCOHOL ABUSE, OR OTHER MAJOR LIFE TRAUMAS ALWAYS RESERVE SUICIDE AS THEIR 'LAST ESCAPE' FROM REALITY -- UNTIL THEY REALIZE THAT SUICIDE IS NO ESCAPE, OR THEY, ONCE AGAIN CHOOSE LIFE.
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GIVING UP ONE'S LIFE FOR ANOTHER IS PERHAPS NOBLE, BUT IT IS NOT AS NOBLE AS LEARNING HOW TO FORGIVE AND THEN MOVE ON.

FORGIVENESS IS THE GREATEST HUMAN ATTRIBUTE, FOR IN A WORLD OF PERFECT JUSTICE, OR PERFECT KARMA, DESTRUCTION IS THE RESULT.

PERHAPS THIS IS WHY THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE SAME GOD, HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS NOT LIVED IN PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AS RADICAL FORMS OF ISLAM WERE EXPORTED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, THEREIN CONFLICT HAS BEEN BREWED ANEW.

Globalone, Continued:

Here was my last post to you on the Colson thread. You didn't reply. Would you care to now?

You write to Sparrow:

"You are correct in that merely shouting "you're going to Hell" as a tool to denigrate someone accomplishes nothing. In fact, it only hurts and offends.

--> However, my confusion is directed more towards those who are engaged in rationale and intelligent dialog. It's as if they expect me to disregard my faith in an effort to be politically correct."
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As I remarked earlier (scroll down), I am not offended by Cs who think Jews, Muslims, Hindus, et al, are "going to Hell." I would like to know how, in your view, this furthers "engaged in rationale and intelligent dialog," how it fits in with your "faith," which you don't want to "disregard in an effort to be politically correct."

What hope does this hold for interfaith discussion? Remember, that from an Islamic perspective anyone who does believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ is damned by definition.

As you know, there are, of course, Christians (generically speaking) and Muslims who don't hold with damnation theses.

Judaism holds that the Lord has a covenant with all peoples, that this is not a matter for humans to judge.

I'd like to know more about what other religions have to say about "damnation" and the like.

January 2, 2009 3:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments

Cal, I see considerable merit in your main contention that conservative Christians will be looking outside of the political arena to achieve their main ends. Politics has, for the most part in recent decades, presented only a Hobson's choice, at least at the national level.

The real issue for me is, will the massive failure of both Democratic and Republican strategies for the economy and for world domination (either cultural or military), different as they may be, bring wisdom into either fold? I fear the answer is an emphatic no.

Mr. Thomas,

I could not disagree more. I think that if the so-called “Christian Conservatives” (in my view, that is an oxymoron) are on the decline, that is the best thing that could happen to real Christianity. And I do not consider just Republicans here. When I was a boy, the Conservatives were the Southern Democrats. Many of them become Republicans only when and because the Democrats favored Civil Rights. So much for how Christian they are. But when we look at what Jesus really taught – help the poor, heal the sick, love your neighbor, etc. – then I have great hopes in a future that will at last make some inroads in redistributing incomes similar to what was done by the early church as recorded in Acts, giving us universal health care (preferably single payer as most enlightened places have done) as I do not recall Jesus or the Apostles ever charging for healing, and stopping the constant negative name calling etc. that we see on so much of the right winged media. Maybe even we could listen to what we were told about loving our enemies and doing good to those who hate us. Imagine what that might do for world peace. I think the Marshall Plan did a lot more for America’s standing in the world than invading Iraq did. Will all of this happen? I have no idea, but I am certain it has a lot better chance if we get the Conservatives out of power. I see nothing about Christ that tells me he would be a Conservative. In fact, I think they would have called Him a bleeding heart liberal and He would have been proud to carry that title.

Globalone:

You write to Sparrow:

"You are correct in that merely shouting "you're going to Hell" as a tool to denigrate someone accomplishes nothing. In fact, it only hurts and offends.

--> However, my confusion is directed more towards those who are engaged in rationale and intelligent dialog. It's as if they expect me to disregard my faith in an effort to be politically correct."
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As I remarked earlier (scroll down), I am not offended by Cs who think Jews, Muslims, Hindus, et al, are "going to Hell." I would like to know how, in your view, this furthers "engaged in rationale and intelligent dialog," how it fits in with your "faith," which you don't want to "disregard in an effort to be politically correct."

What hope does this hold for interfaith discussion? Remember, that from an Islamic perspective anyone who does believe in the divinity of Jesus Christ is damned by definition.

As you know, there are, of course, Christians (generically speaking) and Muslims who don't hold with damnation theses.

Judaism holds that the Lord has a covenant with all peoples, that this is not a matter for humans to judge.

I'd like to know more about what other religions have to say about "damnation" and the like.

Limpscomb,

"And what do the 'christian' Republicans care about more than stopping all abortions, making gays as miserable as possible, ignoring our environmental disintergration, and more ills than I can enumerate in this space..."
Globalone, you said:

--> The American public is completely split on the issue of abortion, so please don't try to demonize Christianity for actively seeking to prevent the killing of innocent children. The fact that you find nothing inhumane about the procedures used to kill an unborn child during the 3rd trimester is sad, really.

You seem to assume that all those who do not support a blanket abolution of all abortions support freely allowing abortion in the 3rd trimester. That is absolutely not true. There are many people who would rather see no abortions, but also believe that fetal rights evolve: The rights of a foetus at 8 months of pregnancy are different from those of a cluster of a few cells in the second or third week of pregnancy. The bible can support the belief that the foetus does not have rights until it is infused with blood, and has a heartbeat, and therefore there is a zone in which fetal rights are very limited. Roe v. Wade talks primarily about permitting abortions in the first trimester. That is very different than the rights of a fetus that is viable.

I asknowledge that a foetus has rights, but a foetus' rights must also be balanced against the rights of a woman. One can be a Christian and believe this.

marcedward,

Thank you for your comments.

"you probably have no problem with injustices being carried out against me and people like me in this world (what I call real life)."

--> That is completely illogical and factually inaccurate. I have hundreds of friends and acquaintances that are not Baptist or Christian. I love and value them no less than someone in my own congregation.

"(and certainly less than your prefect self)"

--> Again, this is illogical and factually inaccurate. There is no Biblical foundation whatsoever that suggests Christians are perfect or "better" than anyone else. I would suggest basing your arguments less on emotion and more on substance.

"Oh, and this will sadden you, but there is no Hell."

--> You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I wish you were correct. Unfortunately, that's not my call.

globalone
Obviously there is no 'Hell'.
However, if you start talking about how I'm going to hell (where a 'merciful god of love' would torture me for eternity for the crime of being born to the wrong set of parents) you probably have no problem with injustices being carried out against me and people like me in this world (what I call real life). When you decide that your god is putting whole classes of people into hell, you are making them less than human (and certainly less than your prefect self), which is a step towards being OK with any kind of exploitation.
Oh, and this will sadden you, but there is no Hell.

Cal writes
'Palestinian children will continue to be taught that their highest goal in life should be martyrdom and the killing of Jews, Christians and other "infidels."'

Cal, you ignorant sl*t
Maybe if America was occupied by a foreign power, you'd colaborate with the occupation forces. Many of us would resist an invader. Palestinian kids are no doubt taught one side of the Palestine/Israel history. However in Israel and the USA we only learn the Israeli side of the establishment of Israel, so we're no better off than the Palestinian children. Of course you are so ignorant you don't even know that Israel has pushed most of the native Christians out of Palestine, not the Muslims. Christians, Jews and Muslims had lived in that area for centuries in relative peace. It is the Zionists who want every non-Jew out of the area. I have no hope you'll read or understand anything that doesn't line up with your own prejudices, but it'd be nice if you actually had an idea what you're talking about before you write about it!

Sparrow,

You are correct in that merely shouting "you're going to Hell" as a tool to denigrate someone accomplishes nothing. In fact, it only hurts and offends.

--> However, my confusion is directed more towards those who are engaged in rationale and intelligent dialog. It's as if they expect me to disregard my faith in an effort to be politically correct.

Limpscomb,

"And what do the 'christian' Republicans care about more than stopping all abortions, making gays as miserable as possible, ignoring our environmental disintergration, and more ills than I can enumerate in this space..."

--> The American public is completely split on the issue of abortion, so please don't try to demonize Christianity for actively seeking to prevent the killing of innocent children. The fact that you find nothing inhumane about the procedures used to kill an unborn child during the 3rd trimester is sad, really.

--> Your "more ills to enumerate" comment is laughable. It's not about space. It's about content.

Farnaz,

--> I am interested to know in what ways Christianity has threatened or is threatening the welfare of the country. Please expound further.

Daniel,

--> You were obviously offended by what I said, so I must apologize for that. It appears that I did not completely understand your comments or what you where alluding to. I will disregard your comments in the future to avoid such confusion.

Globalone: you're right in saying that non-believers should not be offended by being told they are going to hell, but not for the reasons you think. I refrain from being offended not because I dismiss hell as a myth and just don't care, but for the same reasons I wouldn't be offended if a child came up to me and called me a "stupid-head". It isn't just because I don't think hell exists, it's because people (especially grown adults) hurling childish insults like "you're going to hell" is laughably arrogant and easily dismissed as the vain attempt at setting oneself apart as "better" than the other person that it is. I hope that doesn't sound insulting, but think about it, even according to your own beliefs, is there any good reason for you to ever need to tell someone they're "going to hell"? I thought you had some kind of omniscient deity figure to worry about all that for you.

Mr. Thomas wrote: "I can see conservative Christians less enamored by a Republican Party that has spoken their language, but has not followed-through very effectively to solve the things they care most about."

And what do the 'christian' Republicans care about more than stopping all abortions, making gays as miserable as possible, ignoring our environmental disintergration, and more ills than I can enumerate in this space, and touting themselves as superior and godly to the rest of the world?

Globalone:

"I've always been perplexed by people who disregard Christianity as a "myth" and then become highly offended about the discussion of Hell. If you don't believe in Heaven or Hell, then why would you care if I say you're going there? Quite an enigma I'm afraid."

I don't think everyone becomes offended when Christians (generically speaking) say Jews are going to hell. I, as a Jew, certainly don't. Rather, I become afraid, afraid because the thinking that produces such statements is so primitive, barbaric, and bestial that, as evidence for two thousand years, it threatens the welfare of us all.

It's Taliban thinking in a nuclear age,nazi thinking, WTC thinking, Darfur thinking. Not offensive, just terrifying.

Globalone

I found your reply to be highly offensive and I do not thank you for it.

Every assumption that you have made about me and my beliefs is wrong, wrong, wrong. An atheist is a person who does not believe in God, not someone who disagrees with you.

Your problem is that I am seeking to hold you to a higher Christian standard, which you are resistent to, but you choose to grovel in the dirt and mud, like a pig.

Obiouosly you did not like the implicaiton of my comments, because you pretended not to understand, but instead, sought to turn it all around into a criticism of what I am.

You ask why a person who does not believe in Hell would be offended if you tell them they are going to Hell. What an un-Christ-like pretentious thing to say; what a Christian hypocrite you are.

Daniel,

Thank you for your response.

If one does not believe in Christianity, than "abomination" holds no more or no less value than any other Christian belief.

I've always been perplexed by people who disregard Christianity as a "myth" and then become highly offended about the discussion of Hell. If you don't believe in Heaven or Hell, then why would you care if I say you're going there? Quite an enigma I'm afraid.

Globalone

Does the word "abomination" ring a bell? In its intolerance, Conservative Christianity in America has become synymous with, WHAT?

I am sure I do not have to say it.

Christianity is no longer centered around the teachings of Christ, but around a sinister political objective, which has become so insidious that most people now associate it with Christianity. I will not say it outright; we all knmow what I am talking about.

On another subject, I must say that I am impressed with Cal Thomas's essay; it is the first time on this forum, that I have read something by him that seems to be his own original thoughts, and not someone else's plattides. Maybe he could keep it up in the future.

"...unbelief creates a vacuum others are eager to fill."

Care to expand on this one Cal? Unbelief (I prefer nonbelief) does not create a "vacuum" for those that choose not to believe. Those people who choose to not believe in a deity are quite comfortable with their thoughts, morals and logic. If this is another attempt to paint nonbelievers as empty souls who will always seek to fill their nonbelief with something else like terrorism, then shame on you Cal Thomas.

Mark,

"The religious people who don't act crazy and un-American get media coverage - it is just that they are so far outnumbered by so many so-called religious people who ACT crazy and un-American."

First, I'm not sure what the correlation is between "religious people" and being "un-American". Second, the media focuses on one thing and one thing only: Sales. It's a business. And what sells is inflammatory rhetoric that is more likely than not uttered by fringe groups (not just religious).

"When religion comes to be seen no longer as an organized effort to disadvantage people who disagree with you, but rather an effort to be inclusive of all mankind"

How does religion "disadvantage" people?

"Yes it would be nice, for the media to finally present the truth in the stories or at least all of the story, not just the part that makes the religious person look crazy or anti-American"

The religious people who don't act crazy and un-American get media coverage - it is just that they are so far outnumbered by so many so-called religious people who ACT crazy and un-American. When religion comes to be seen no longer as an organized effort to disadvantage people who disagree with you, but rather an effort to be inclusive of all mankind, no matter what our differences, it will gain (or regain) its proper place on earth.

Yes it would be nice, for the media to finally present the truth in the stories or at least all of the story, not just the part that makes the religious person look crazy or anti-American.