Hard Times? Where? Not Here

Cal,

I am thankful.

Every day I thank God that I had the opportunity to get the h*ll OUT of the US with my children. Life is so much better here in Europe. I have a much better job and I have health care.

DZ is spot on, by the way. When the French are at work, they WORK. No gabbing round the water cooler. No 'Sports Illustrated' in the toilet. No Web surfing on company time. No municipal workers leaning on their shovels. The French are productive people.

Instead of bad US government, we get excellent roads, well-maintained infrastructure, excellent free or inexpensive education, thousands of miles of public beaches lined by coastal paths, free public concerts and events in almost every village, flowers planted everywhere, well-behaved children and dogs, families having fun together during the week and at weekends (since older kids don't have to work three minimum-wage jobs to pay for college), the best food in the world.

It's fun. We go into our village. There are teens, young adults, toddlers, older adults, old folks all together and it is impossible to tell who is who's parent or sibling. One sees large family groups bicycling to the beach or walking on the coastal path. Strangers greet each other with a cheery 'Bonjour'.

Sometimes I return home hoping that my neighbours don't see me because that means an invitation for bread, wine, cheese, sausage, shellfish and conversation at a long table. Great fun, but when I have just driven from Paris all I want to do is sleep. The old lady in the stone farmhouse is teaching my daughter Breton. She has made a Breton costume for the little girl, with a lace cap, and the old folks are teaching her to dance traditional dances.

It's called La Vie -- Life. What does the US have to offer? Overwork, with no security at all.

Last week I was in the Netherlands. It is much the same there, as it is in most of Europe.

American culture has become twisted and sad. I would never return to the US, and the kids put up a fuss every time we have to return to visit relatives.

Cal. We know that we are blessed by God. Too bad about you.

Reasonable not hateful writes:

"Mr Mark-

I live in the same county (OC). 18 years now.

It is a wonderful place to live.

You must be in shock with so many Pubs around"

You know, I thought that would be the case (lots of Rs around), but it's turning out that the people I associate with on a business level are largely Dems and quite vocal about it.

BTW - these folks are millionaires and billionaires, so it's very surprising.

The one person who has openly identified herself to me as a Republican also believes that global warming is a huge plot devised by Al Gore.

Go figure!

And, yes, a great place to live. It's the one place that has rendered moot my dream of retiring to the Cote d'azur. Why bother with all there is here?!

Mr Mark-

Companies don't always do things that make sense. They just cut without looking sometimes, and politics is involved too much also.

I live in the same county. 18 years now.

It is a wonderful place to live.

You must be in shock with so many Pubs around.....

;)

DZ-

Not sure I agree with your stats. That said, Western Europe for years has been protected by the US defense net for decades. I see how "productive" my German counterparts in my company are. They take about 8 weeks off with all their holidays and vacations. Sorry, they are not as productive. Their GDP bites compared to ours and their growth is anemic also. They also can't protect themselves.

Better read up on your stats. You are misinformed if you think they are as productive as we are. They may be happier, but they will have to pay the piper just as we will for their deficits.

The reason they have less poor is they redistribute wealth, to a degree that I vehemently disagree with. It's good to have a safety net, but not to give the poor any incentive to get their butts to work is a whole other matter.

Did it ever occur to socialists that the profit motive is one of the reasons the US dominates in medical device and pharmecuticals ? In essence we subsidize the rest of the world with our advances.
Don't lose sight of that.

Reasonable Not Hateful:

Your comments about Western Europe are simply not supported by the facts. On a per hour basis, the French, for example, are the most productive in the world. Belgium is also ahead of the United States. Now, the Europeans choose to work fewer hours so, overall productivity is somewhat less than the U.S. and their economies don't grow quite as quickly.

Unemployment rates are about the same, because they count everyone, we don't count almost half. Homeless people are not counted, people whose unemployment insurance has run out aren't counted, etc. Also, the poverty rate in the U.S. is 12% whereas it's about 2-3% in Europe. Plus, ALL Europeans have health care. The Europeans have done far more for the poor than we have.

As for health care financing, the U.S. system is the most inefficient among all devloped countries. Government financing programs return about 97% of the total paid whereas privatee insurers in the U.S. return only 67% of the total paid in premiums. Even Medicare has only 2% admin costs. Finally, by every measure, Europeans are healthier than Americans.

Dear Reasonable -

I, too, live in CA. Orange County, to be exact. CA would be fine tax-wise if we got back from the Feds what we pay to the Feds, but we don't. I think we get $.66 on the dollar.

As far a corporations holding onto productive employees: a friend of mine works at a music company in NYC that has seen revenues dropping over 20% a year. In the same time frame, the division he runs has experienced double-digit growth, 26% this past year, in fact. He was just told that he was being cut loose in Nov as the company wanted to "go a different way." He's being thrown overboard at a time when his growth percentage equals the company's overall loss percentage.

For Reasonable not Hateful, with regards to GaryD,

I have never commented on what the government should do about poverty, nor proposed any government programs to give money to poor people, nor have I brought up Europe and suggested that we copy them. I just try to point out philosophical observations from time to time. GaryD always replies with passive aggressive hostility and calls me a "Lefty" even though I am usually pointing out basic Christian values that go right over his head.

In most cases, merely giving cash to poor people is probably an unworkable solution. But there are poor people in the world, and excusing your own hotility towards them by calling lazy and stupid is just plain rude and crude. This is real brutal and shameful hypocrisy for which there is no excuse. But I am sure we will be hearing some!

MR Mark-

I don't give administrations credit either. They can and will help create an environment where the economy can thrive, but in the end they can't really affect economic cycles. This is why I am so against my state(Ca) and their wanting to raise taxes AGAIN.

It is easy to blame politicians- but I put more blame on legislative branches that don't do what they should, or enact laws that discourage economic activity. Our president has much less power domestically than we give him credit for.

That said, Bush's going into Iraq was a big blunder and he depended on the people below him to give good advice on that front.

Hope things look up for you and this new position is something you get to stay around for awhile and advance.

Know one thing- corporations are about making money quarter to quarter, and if they are not doing well, they just throw you overboard like a they are in hot air balloon that is not maintaining altitude. If you can add value, they most likely won't.... throw you away. (Most of the time). It is too damn,,,uh, darn political too.

I am sure you know this already though.

Dear Reasonable -

Thanks for the comments. Yes, we have battled on this blog, sometimes stepping over the line of being cordial, but it's interesting how one person being in distress can evoke sympathy in others. We often see this portrayed in the movies, where two people are fighting to the death, until one of the foes is hanging over the cliff, and his opponent offers a helping hand to pull him up to safety.

As far a blaming administrations for the economy: well, they all take credit when times are good, don't they? They all to some extent run against what they perceive to be weak in their opponents' economies. Remember bush the oilman remarking on rising gas prices under Clinton?

The chief culprit with bushco has been the weak dollar, a strategy they pursued aggressively while claiming they supported a strong dollar. Couple this to Greenspan lowering the prime rate to historic lows (something Republican Greenspan had a singular aversion to when Clinton was in office) and you have a recipe for disaster, ie: lots of money available for expansion in housing which led to an economy fueled almost entirely by a housing bubble, while the value of the dollar was falling on world markets.

Is there any wonder why countries with a strong currency have rushed in to buy America's debt?

And, here we are.

DITLD-

Although Gary was a bit crude, his point was that government, in the long run, is inefficient in helping the poor. Poverty is extended when we don't put incentives out there for people to work.

Welfare is necessary, but not at the level Western Europe does it. This just leads to dependence on government.

GaryD:

So, you did reiterate your belief that poor people are lazy and stupid.

Ok, fine, suppose that you're right.

The question then, is not what do we do with the poor; the question is, what do we do with the lazy and the stupid?

I guess send them to the camps.

When you get to Heaven, and I'm sure that is where you're going, what will you do if there is a rule against complaining, and what will you do if there is a rule against name-calling and bad-manners? What will you do if there is a requirement to treat your fellow saved souls with kindness and good manners?

What will you do, you poor slob?

Mr Mark-

As much as I have "done battle" with you on this blog- I do hope things work out for you. I think they will as you sound like a smart person and a hard worker...

One thing I don't agree with you about however... I don't put economies on administrations. They don't have the power over economic cycles etc. This economy has been good to me, but I think each individual situation is different and that being at the right place at the right time is all part of it.

Personally I believe, as you well know, that God has a hand in all this. But that is assertion we can table for another day.

Being someone that has been laid off twice in a year(2002-2003) I know what you have been through, at least partially.

Dear Hammerhead -

Thanks for the comments.

I don't know if my situation is "typical," but I have a feeling that it's more typical than you think.

As far as "mistakes" I made, well, one mistake that I will take ownership of was buying that house in the first place. My wife and I went back and forth over whether to buy or whether to rent going into that situation, and were leaning heavily towards renting as we felt the bush economy was going to eventually collapse, but we decided to buy because when we added it all up it looked like the better decision. As I said, the mortgage payments at the time were well within our means.

The other lesson that I might have learned would be to be less trusting of people, but I am reluctant to go down the road on a philosophical level. I prefer to accept the fact that there are no guarantees in life, that he who hesitates is lost, and that one can only see so deeply into the lake while looking before leaping. In my case, being able to see a few feet further into the lake would probably have kept me in the job I already had, but that's not always possible, even with the best of due diligence.

In any case, that's all water under the bridge at this point. I certainly won't be looking to buy a home until this thing bottoms out. Fortunately, I live in the USA where we're all just a lottery win away from wealth and happiness, even as our jobs get shipped overseas and our houses get foreclosed.

Mr Mark,
I asked for the "typical dynamics" that have led to the greatest majority of mortgage meltdowns?
By your own admission your scenerio as described does not contain the "typical" elements that constitute the lions share of these hundreds of thousands of mortgage meltdowns?
If you do you should read up on the subject.
I asked for the rule and you have described the exception.
Circumstances such as yours occur even in the best economies,but they are not the basis for the current widespread mortgage meltdown.
I do hope the hard lessons you have learned from your bad experience will prevent you from making similar mistakes in the future,and that all goes well for you.
Experience can be a hard teacher and I have learned many a difficult lesson myself.

God Bless,
Hammerhead

Dear Hammerhead -

I happen to be one of those people who is going through the current mortgage meltdown. I don't mind discussing my situation. Perhaps you'll find it instructive.

I bought a home in 2005, the second home I had purchased in my life. 3 bdrm, 1700 sq ft. Middle-class neighborhood. I took a job in a new state and had the resources to buy so I did. Unfortunately for me, the job I took went south in short order because the company's finances weren't what they said they were cracked up to be. Yeah, they lied to me. Try instituting legal action when there's no money to recover and no one to go after.

Anyway, I was now stuck in a town with a rising unemployment rate where getting a job was very difficult, especially if you have a college education and you find yourself overqualified for just about everything. We went through a lot of savings and assets to keep current on our mortgage. Our monthly mortgage payments were well within the means of the job I had taken. We never took out a home equity loan to splurge on possessions, vacations, etc., but being unemployed meant that we were going through assets to live, not earning income. I interviewed all over the country, from CA to OH to NY to DE to DC. Each of these trips cost me money out of my pocket, and no job offer was forthcoming.

We tried to do a refi on the house, but no bank was interested as I was unemployed and my wife's income was not that much. When the housing market crashed in CA - especially bad in my neighborhood - a refi was out of the question even with employment. Nobody would refi a home loan when the value of the home had dropped 25%. Yes, we were now upside down on our mortgage.

By last summer, I had prospects for jobs and tried once again to refi. My lender told me they wouldn't consider it because we were current on our payments. I told them that that situation might be ending. "Call us when you're behind 3 months and we'll talk" came the reply. At that point, we cashed in stocks and other assets and paid off all of our credit cards to at least stop amassing and paying interest.

Before we could get three months behind on the mortgage, I was offered a job about 300 miles south of where we were living. I jumped at it as it paid great and was in a better place to live. Called the lender and said we'd be moving and would they consider a short sell. Well, that was a one-way conversation for 5 months. After working the new job for a few months and living in a sublet, I relocated the family to the new town (we're renting). Renting the house we own is out of the question as the going rate on a 3-bedroom rental would have been about $1800 short of the monthly mortgage payment, and I simply didn't have the resources to cover that and a rental home in the new town.

We are still trying to short-sell the house. The bank has finally agreed to it after refusing to even return my agent's calls for months. We had 4 buyers at one time who were interested, but the bank would have lost $50,000 on the sale, so they wouldn't accept it. They are now willing to accept offers that amount to a loss of $120,000 on the sale. We'll lose our down payment, and the three years of mortgage payments we made didn't accrue to added equity as the house is now worth less than what we paid. We have one buyer interested, and it might go through, but most short sells don't. There could be a foreclosure in our future. C'est la vie.

So, where would I see the government in this? Well, it would have been nice to have someone else to turn to to refi when we were current on the mortgage, still had some assets and I was unemployed but interviewing steadily. That's all I'd ask for. Someone besides a loan officer who could think out of the box of their studied mindset that you're not in trouble until THEY say you're in trouble.

Maybe you find my case the height of irresponsible behavior. I don't. I found myself stuck in a situation because an employer enticed me into a job and then abruptly called it quits, leaving me (and a few other new employees, BTW) high and dry.

Funny thing - throughout this whole ordeal, I have never once cried out to any deities for help nor to curse them. Things are looking better these days. And, I am once again gainfully employed, and in an area of CA better-suited to my profession with more jobs available at higher wages.

Taken as a whole, I can't complain. I can't say my situation is, how did you put it, "typical." it just is what it is. Are these meltdowns "infectious?" Yes, I'd say they are - our house value decreased because there were hundreds of other properties in our town that had been foreclosed, and a sinking realty market sink ALL ships, if you catch my drift.

Had I been in this situation in 2005 when the market was hot, we could have sold our house soon after the job went south and made a little cash, or, we could have stayed in the house for a couple of years (like we did) and made plenty of cash on a sale. Right now, a sale is tough. I don't even know how a buyer gets qualified for a loan these days.

We bought our home fully intending to stay with the new job for at least 5-10 years, not to flip the thing and make a killing.

Live and learn, right?

Hope you enjoyed the story.

Mr. Mark,
Exactly what are the typical dynamics that result in someone suffering this "mortgage meltdown" you mention you want to help them with?
I have had a mortgage for many years and mine has never "melted down".
Are these "mortgage meltdowns" infectious?
Is that why there are so many of them?
Why are 3000 sq ft and above houses so much more suceptible,statisically speaking, to "mortgage meltdown" than smaller houses?
Is there a faulty type of wood that is used in just 3000 sq ft and above size houses that makes them much more suceptible to "mortgage meltdown"?
Would you rather not discuss any of these specifics?

" A tent or a cottage,why should I care?
They're building a palace for me over there!
Tho exiled from home,yet still I may sing,All glory to God,I'm a child of the King."
(Harriet E.Buell 1834-1910)

The worst thing you can do to help the poor is to give money to the government.

HAMMERHEAD writes:
"Its not my money,and I want it now!"

As a person who typically pays over $30,000 a year in taxes, I would prefer that my tax money went to help the truly disadvantaged, to help out families trapped in the mortgage meltdown, to make a serious effort to repair our infrastructure and to fund our public schools, rather than seeing it used almost exclusively to fund the military-industrial complex, to line the pockets of bush, Cheney and their Halliburton buddies, and -most egregiously - to be sent off to religious institutions in an unConstitutional fantasy-based initiative.

Last I looked, the churches don't pay taxes, yet they are first in line on the "it's not my money, and I want it now" gravy train. The rest of the rogues gallery I mentioned above shamelessly suck at the taxpayer teat and laugh all the way to their offshore bank accounts.

Hopefully, Obama's election this Fall will signal a change in business-as-usual. Who knows? Republicans might actually need to start working to earn a living!

The question itself is revealing as to the mindset of it's authors in that the premise is that once great riches and material goodies are obtainable that "comfort" has been achieved.
How many daily dirty sleazy tales of the rich and powerful acting like desperate depraved animals manuvering in the shadows, in need, John Edwards, govenor Spitzer,president,etc,etc,,,.
Does it take to convince people that our desperate depraved hopless conditon cannot be satisfied by any amount of money,power,lust,etc,etc,,,?
It seems that both unbelievers and believers alike are in agreement that faith in God does provide some comfort to the poor.
This is hardly surprising,at least as far as christianity is concerned.
After all the author and finisher of the faith was born in an animals feeding trough,and himself claimed that the "foxes had their dens,and the birds had their nests" but He did not have anyplace to lay His head.
And Jesus did tell us to pray for "our daily bread" not "our daily rack of lamb".
I think a much more interesting question,and the other half of this whole equation is what do the poor&rich that do not believe in God turn to for comfort?

"I once was an outcast stranger on earth,a sinner by choice and an alien by birth,but I've ben adopted,my name's written down-an heir to mansion,a robe,and a crown."
(Harriett E.Buell, 1834-1910)

Its not my money,and I want it now!

Reading comprehension still a problem is it Daniel?

I said the only reason to starve in this country is to be profoundly stupid or to lazy to walk.

Every major city and most minor ones have food banks and churches will provide vouchers from a nearby grocery store.

There are reasons of course for poverty - most notably the excessive size of government in this country - other than laziness or stupidity though either of those can be a contributing factor.

It is interesting as well as instructive to note that as the number of government people and programs dedicated to serving the needs of the poor have increased the conditions of poverty have not only become worse but more intractable.

"people who have little materially seem to trust God more than those who have an abundance. "

I would have worded this the other way around:
People who trust in God most have very little.
Those who trust in their own labor prosper.

There is alot of wealth in the United States; I don't doubt that. We are awash in money and wealth. Thank goodness for all this opulent and excessive wealth, that splashes over and trickles down to the poor.

But my goodness folks! (that means you Cal, and you GaryD) there ARE poor people in America. I have been to West Virginia; people are poor in West Virginia. I have been to rural Virginia, Georgia, and Mississippi, and people are poor there. I have been through rural Kansas, Iowa, and Colorado, where the small towns are rusted and abandonned; those few that remain live in extremee poverty. I have been to New Mexico and Arizona, zipping down the interstate highway through the scenic Southwest, were you see rusted out trailer after rusted out trailer, where people live, where people are so poor, you think this cannot be America, but it is. In Arizona, I saw an abandommed MacDonalds that people were living in as there home.

If you have alot, or even enough, why spit on the poor, and regard them with derision? Even more puzzling to me is how Christians could take such an attitude.

This column gives me a vision of Cal seated in front of his TV, watching the reports of long lines at the unemployment offices, and of families being evicted from their foreclosed homes, all the while enjoying a huge slice of Claim Jumper's Triple-Layer Death By Chocolate cake.

In our culture, to have material wealth is to be good. If you don't have it, you are bad.

What the poor and lower-middle class need is a good wage for the good work that they do - that's it. They are underpaid and it's hurting America. This includes enough to save for retirement and pay for medical bills.

And I think he makes a good point in that we are too materialistic to realize how good we have it.

So Garyd, the poor are lazy and stupid.

What a cold shoulder.

Thank God my heart is not THAT hard.

Jesus commanded us to serve the poor. But if you don't want to, you can just pretend that there aren't any poor to serve. Awfully convenient doctrine you have there, Mister Thomas!

I'm sure Mr. Thomas isn't having "hard times."

That makes it so much easier for him and others of his ilk to support governmental and economic structures which shaft the poor. After all, "happiness is not found in material things." Unfortunately, this is easy to say when you have all of them you need.

Cal has to callously dismiss the plight of our poor because otherwise he would have to acknowledge that his party and his political ideology is directly responsible for our current situation. This would cause his head to explode, and deep down inside he probably realizes there's no god to stop that from happening.

So his only cognitive recourse is cruelty and selfishness, which he is no doubt justifying via some obscure bible verse as we speak.

From: Joktanian-National-Party, U.S.A.:

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“Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age 18.”

- Said by our great Prophet of many, Hir Albert Einstein [pbuh et al] of the “Holy Cosmic Feelers Faith” [Ho-Co-Fe-Fa] and our 'Quantum-Entanglement' & Relativity' song

AND

“G-D Consents, but Only For a “TiME” [via ‘TEMPerature‘, not clock or space time thinking].

- Said by our great Prophet of many, Hir Harry Theriault [pbuh et al] of the “O.ne U.niversal R.eligion Book Of Tran{finity}” [O.U.R.-B.O.T.] New Song.

----

On: OBAMA Eats "DOG"-meat:

Fact: OBAMA was trained to Eat"DOG"-meat: Soo

Please, keep ye Pet DOG(s) away from OBAMA & Family!

Also Cat's?

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VOTE: The ‘APOCALYPT-ARiAN’ Prophecy!

VOTE: McCAiN, GOG (Truth) thinking, not OBAMA, MAGOG (Illusion) wrong-thinking!

VOTE: “’Marriage is sacred between a ‘real-MAN & a real-WOMAN“, not a Man with Man, etc.!

VOTE:
The "NEW_NAPOLiANS", aka the "NEO-NAPOLiAN's" , like John McCain & Condoleeza Rice et al, and NOT like them "NEO-CON" ventriloquists Clinton's, Gores, Kennedy’s, JesJackson, ASharpton, Lu Farrakhan , Oprah etc.., of Obama's-Pipe-Dream-TEAM & thus Zero ‘CHANGE’ nothing New! What a Fib!

.........P.............
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L O V e R O C K
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--

..........................McCain for PREZ 2008!

...........................................Condoleeza vPREZ 2009!

VOTE: "ECONoMiC MiGHT, Not MiLiTARY MiGHT!" This TiME Around!

VOTE: Stable or Lower Oil Prices!

VOTE: Finish what is unfinished, and Globally ,as well as Locally ,fix What is Broken, and not fix what's not broken, but Prevent!

G O O D -- B Y E Mr. G.W. BuSH et al!

HELLO McCAiN-TEAM ! A better FUTURE with 'FRESH' Faces & “SMARTER” minds!

VOTO/A:

Peace (English), Paz (latin), Shalom (Eberu), Ahimsa (Hindu/Urdu), Salaam (Arab), Zhengyu (Sino), ... & more Good Tidings coming YE-WAY!

Thank Ya.

Gracia Yo.

Todar!

Shookria!

Shookron!

Zcee Zcee or Doe-jaey, Respectfully!

Pay'd For, By the American JOCKTANian-PARTY of the "ECLATi{ON}" Votary Assoc. 2012+

Poverty is relative to our neighbors' wealth, to the prices at the pump, and in the store, and is felt in the small joys that we sacrifice when the going gets tough. So comparisons to the annual income of other countries are specious. Many of us are really struggling even when we do manage to bring food to the table and keep a roof over our heads. To diminish that as whining reveals the absence of any similar experience in the speaker. It is no surprise then that faith speaks strongly at these times. It is the voice of understanding and the cause of hope.

So stating the Truth makes Cal lost?

Sorry he's correct. You want to see real poverty look to Darfur and Zimbabwe. There are only two reasons to starve in the US. Laziness or profound stupidity.

We have poverty such as we do largely because we have far too much government.

Cal,
Though a previous fan of some of your well written commentaries, I continue to be dismayed by the frequent fits of callousness in your writings of the past few years. You sound like you're channeling Karl Rove more than the teachings of Christ. Such is politics, I guess.

Thank you for this post!

Obviously, Cal hasn't heard of the sub-prime crisis, people getting laid off, houses being foreclosed on, steep jumps in electricity cutoffs, etc. No hard times here! We're all a nation of whiners, right?

I've been where a lot of folks are at. My husband lost his job in the tech downturn in 2001 and was out for 10 months, within a year after buying a new house. Sometimes, the only thing that got him through it was the fact that suicide was a sin. Fortunately, we managed to work our way out of our problems (with a lot of help). For me, I took a lot of solace in the "wheel of fortune". No, not the game show. The tarot card. Sometimes your on top, sometimes you're on the bottom. When you're on the bottom, you have hope that it's not going to last. When you're on top, you have to make preparations for when things start to go bad again.

Pagan,

I suspect most people would agree that Cal is on an island with his latest comments. Although, there is a hint of truth when it comes to the whining and complaining of the middle class in regards to gas prices, etc.

But your comments that paint "Europe" as some sort of personal utopia are misguided. Perhaps the 36 hour work week, month long vacations, and inability to fire non-effective employees has led to the following:

UNEMPLOYMENT RATES

The higher the ranking, the worse the unemployment:

Germany #115, Bulgaria #112, Greece #99, France #98, Spain #91, Italy #74, Portugal #71.

The U.S.? #49.

GROSS DOMESTIC PRODUCT (GDP)

The ENTIRE E.U. 16.3 trillion
The U.S. 13.8 trillion

As for universal health care, I'm all in favor as long as (1) it is not run by our inefficient and ineffective U.S. government, and (2) as opposed to every other country with universal health care, patients won't have to wait 6 weeks to have their strep throat diagnosed and treated.

For now, we can have all the plastic crap we *want,* but we gotta work 80+hours, some of us, to keep ourselves in food, or under a roof, or be able to get to the same jobs that others in Europe seem to be able to do and still have full health care, shorter hours, and weeks of vacation.

>>Religion is embraced most strongly by the very rich, who can well afford to believe in god's blessings...and by the very poor, who can't afford not to.

You are totally out of touch with your fellow citizens (especially in regard to the 'categories' of classes of people that you disrepectfully tout as those who would more strongly embrace religion) who have a sincere faith in their creator. Totally.

>>I wonder what category Cal belongs to?

He certainly doesnt belong to the anti-moral, cynical, man-is-the-center-of-the-universe category you belong to, thats for sure.

Keep yakin', Marky...one day your eyes will be cleared of the muck you 'believe' in.

PP:
"What, we're a 'nation of whiners' cause the Great Depression, also a result of people trusting 'God and the Free market,' was *worse?*"

I've always bristled at the concept of "your pain doesn't count because someone else has it worse" as well. If I break my arm, the fact that someone else broke both arms, both legs, and four ribs doesn't make the pain in my arm any less intense or my trip to the ER any less necessary.

Funny how the religious conservatives' 'thankfulness' for our prosperity isn't reflected in their punditry.

What, we're a 'nation of whiners' cause the Great Depression, also a result of people trusting 'God and the Free market,' was *worse?*

" And, by the way, what are "hard times"? Our relatives who lived through the Great Depression lived in harder times than ours. "

For now, we can have all the plastic crap we *want,* but we gotta work 80+hours, some of us, to keep ourselves in food, or under a roof, or be able to get to the same jobs that others in Europe seem to be able to do and still have full health care, shorter hours, and weeks of vacation.

Depression or not, no health care is no health care. Losing your home is still losing your home. Not being able to feed your kids is still not being able to feed your kids.

Ever been hungry, Cal? Ever had only enough food in the house for one, and gave it to your child while you went without? I have.

And God didn't bring me out of it - I did.

Did my faith help me through those times? Yes and no.
Yes, in that meditation and reflection helped keep me centered and calm while continuing to do what I had to do in order to keep a roof over our heads and feed my daughter.
No, in that I did not find relief from the situation in faith, nor was there any divine intervention; I just kept on working, and scrimping, and at times, asking other people for help. I really didn't care what might be waiting in the after-life - I was concerned with making sure my child and I had the necessities in the during-life.

Dan:

Haven't you ever heard of Christian charity? Keep in mind that charity begins at home.

In the words of Humphrey Bogart playing Rocky the bank robber role, "no one ever asks where you got it but you're just a bum without it" it being money. When one is threatened with the greatest terror ever conceived, being set on fire to burn forever and then the demand for money is made to avoid it isn't that some kind of robbery? It's at least terrorism. Cal thinks it's righteous but then he may be a victim. Why is he crying all the way to the bank? Does he have a conscience?

Easy to say for you Cal, while your neochristian preachers, columnists and politicians prosper from the backs of the poor.

Faith in God brings unaccounted, tax free, tax deductible wealth earned at real property tax exempt places of business known as churches, temples, synagogues and mosques. Not to everyone and the po-folks do tend to hang around looking for "charity" and being disappointed . Only those willing to sell their souls, be Moses imitators and make deals with the being that lives in the kind of fire found only in hell shall know the blessings of great wealth. There's the suckers and the suckees in most all situations that lead to great wealth for the few, (many are called [to the ministry] but few are chosen [to get filthy rich]).

Cal, you need to change your registration. A Republican senator is leading the investigation of the Kenneth Copeland, "let's all get rich" ministry. God loves Kenny so much He has blessed him with many gas and oil wells on tax exempt church property. The big money comes to those willing to sell their souls to Lucifer while those who throw in the USA shall get a lot more,, unaccounted, tax free, tax exempt...

Aren't you a big Jerry Falwell fan? That's one of them "rags to riches" stories like Moses. Moses went from killer on the run to the most important person that ever lived, (more important than Jesus -all three great faiths). Jerry went from bootlegger assistant to high places too. Crime pays but nothing close to as well as leading suckers to hell. It's amazing how much money there is in making deals with "some" supernatural being.

Religion is embraced most strongly by the very rich, who can well afford to believe in god's blessings...and by the very poor, who can't afford not to.

I wonder what category Cal belongs to?

"We are the most fortunate and blessed people on earth". What a sweeping generalization! It is dismissive of many of my students who come to school hungry. It is callous to those who are homeless. Who is this 'we' you speak of Cal?

"What role does God or your faith play in helping you get through tough financial times?"

None. Why ?

Consider the wise words of Edward Schillebeeckx, the famous contemporary theologian:

Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

i.e. No one, not even God can prophesy or grant favors since that would violate the God-given/"Mom Nature" gifts/innate human characteristics of Free Will and Future.

i.e. Asking God, Jehovah, Zeus, Allah et al for financial improvement is a waste of time!!!!

i.e. Get an education in a field that pays well.

i.e. Stay lean, clean and in good physical and mental shape to work good paying jobs requiring physical labor.

Cal, there is hunger in America. People in America go without needed medical care. In some places, people are cold in the winter. There isn't enough shelter for all the homeless people in my city. I have taught children who came to school sick because they needed the free lunch. Your grandparents plight in the Great Depression is no comfort, and your blithe dismissal of American poverty is as disrespectful as it is ignorant.

I am incredulous.

What selfish hypocrisy!

There is much here to criticize.

But why bother?

This is a totally lost person.