Protecting the Freedom to Pray, or Not to Pray

Roy,

Do you really think adult soldiers need to have a mandatory moment of silence in order them to make time to pray?

Right on, Cal - a moment of silence. We have too few.

Every once in a while, Cal and I pretty much agree on something. Nice when that happens.

Well, that, Freestinker, is just the Fundies' way of trying to cast what they do, whatever they do, as more 'patriotic' than the people who actually *use* *and, by the way, *rely on** this religious freedom we're supposed to have here.

GaryD:

Mealtime is mandatory for all Midshipmen.

Prayers are given at each and every mealtime.

Standing at attention is mandatory at all meatime prayers until the prayer is complete.

Therefore the mealtime prayers ARE indeed mandatory.

The fact that most mealtime prayers are given by superior officers or their designees makes the mandatory prayers even more coercive.

How anybody can conclude that this practice is in any way ethical or Constitutional is beyond me.

"I've never "gotten" the argument that expressions of faith - such as prayer - are bad in a general setting, where there might be people present who march to a different drummer. I lived in Utah for a many years, and at times when participating in an event involving mostly Mormons, I prayed separately and silently when someone led an invocation, being free to express myself in prayer AND paying respect to the beliefs of the majority with whom I sit and eat."

Well, that's certainly a valid perspective, Pete. It's a little different to use the military to offer some better food, then force people to either pray or be singled out for Fundie harrassment.

As a member of a minority religion, myself, I have no problem with Christians praying, heck, if I were a chaplain, I'd do my best to help them pray, myself,* without dishonoring all concerned by pretending everyone involved is Christian. ...but there are lines.

This practice is over the line, especially in a context where Fundamentalist preachers are trying to convince soldiers that not being a fundamentalist Christian constitutes a threat to everyone's lives. This practice is meant to bait and privilege Evangelicals, while spotlighting those who don't conform.

Can't have that.

Mathew 4:8

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and the glory of them; and he said to him, "All these I will give you, if you will fall down and worship me." Then Jesus said to him, "Begone, Satan! for it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God and him only shall you serve.’" Then the devil left him, and behold, angels came and ministered to him."

BEGONE Satan because Devil, God, angles, Jesus Christ - they are all part of the universe but only one of these became flesh and entered our physical world in order to tell us about the Father and to save us for Himself, Jesus Christ. So Begone.

One has to volunteer to get into West Point, the Naval Academy, the Air Force Academy or whatever. They've had Chaplains since their founding. They've got Chaplains representing every major faith and a good many minor ones. All these people are supposed to be on the same team. No one is compelled to say any prayer as far as I know.

Tim:

You're almost there. Now answer the question "why" would anyone, given that praying is personal and private, want to intrude on an event with it? Maybe if we look at what that does?

It divides the troops into two groups, those that pray and those that don't. It's the old divide and conquer routine. The ones that don't are coerced into joining the ones that do. That's known as missionary-ing the troops.

If the commander is a prayerful person it gets worse doesn't it? After all, the commander has the power to assign details, distasteful details. Doesn't one who does not pray when all others pray not bring the chance of getting the distasteful details? Ever see, "From Here to Eternity"? The captain wanted the private to box because he was a boxing fan. The private didn't want to so the private suffered, details. If that's against regulations then forced prayer, moments of silence or any other loophole is also against regulations.

The devil is behind religion, praying being a manifestation of religion. Devil divides and conquers if he can. The ACLU is anti devil and in turn divide and conquer it would seem.

Ok, then by the same logic the solution to the obnoxious practice of call to prayer blasting over loud speakers when you visit an Islamic nation is to insist that they go to a practice of enforced silence five times a day. But enforced silence five times a day would still be an intrusion, maybe an even bigger one. In the same way, enforced silence before a meal at a military institution is an intrusion. It is something being forced onto the environment.

Anybody who wants to can just at any time they want, meal or not, pray and they don't have to say a word. After all if you believe in God, then you know he can read your thoughts and what is in your heart is more important than any words that come out of your mouth.

I say we respect the right of a person to observe their own moment of silence but that it not be an enforced moment of silence.

Given the unique nature of military service, and the fact that nature is deadly, having a spiritual counselor around is a good idea for servicemen and women (see, not all ideas from our past are bad ones).
I've never "gotten" the argument that expressions of faith - such as prayer - are bad in a general setting, where there might be people present who march to a different drummer. I lived in Utah for a many years, and at times when participating in an event involving mostly Mormons, I prayed separately and silently when someone led an invocation, being free to express myself in prayer AND paying respect to the beliefs of the majority with whom I sit and eat.
A fellow once said, in unexpected circumstances much worse than feeling "different" than one's peers, "[why] can't we just all get along?"
Well, how about it?

Chaplains are provided by the military to serve the needs of members of their community who desire their services. They are paid for at state expense because they are a benefit of employment, like health insurance or paid leave. If my employer has a health club, as many law enforcement agencies do, but I choose not to use it, can I get the costs they pay on my behalf cashed into my paycheck? Nope. Likewise with the chaplaincy. Because some don't see its usefulness doesn't mean they are going to receive a special consideration in favor of the package offer.

As for the moment of silence before meals, it strikes me that Mr. Thomas' proposal is sound. In our crazy runaround world, and at the service academies life is no less busy, I am sure, a minute of quiet will hurt nobody. It also has the added benefit of having the meal begin and/or end together. Those who eat in the same room thus become companions, sharers of bread, which is an important aspect of comradarie, sharing a root or origin. Having lived in a communal setting, I can testify to the bonding effect that eating together has.

If people wish to pray during that minute, or simply to figure out what they have to do that evening, that's their affair.

the frequency may be reconsidered for human health and tranquility.

when we are magnetic and healthy, professional and trained on electromagnetics computers mobile phones, we dont use electromagnetics, we have attained electromagnetics.

"Protecting the Free Dome to Pray, or Not to Pray"

yes this what i say, later we pray not. prayer is an "mms". after the electromagnetic web is complete, and the wireless is on, we dont send "mms".

if You activate the "wireless" of Your "netbook", are You on-air praying? are You on-air broadcast receiver? are You on-air broadcaster? is prayer an "MMS" in case we dance?

For the origins, etc. of "grace before and after meals" see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grace_(prayer)

You know, Mr. Mark, as much as Christians like to fantasize 'm all about throwing them to some theoretical lions, you'd think they'd have figured out it's quite possible to pray whether anyone notices or not.

I dunno, maybe it just takes a little practice or something.

Not. That. Hard.

Really.

Cal writes:

"A moment of silence during which people who wish to pray may do so seems a reasonable compromise that respects the rights of everyone, including the right of God to hear only from those interested in speaking to Him."

I get it. Sort of like, "kill 'em all and let god sort out it out."

Nice, Cal.

He does, at that, Hewitt, but still phrases the issue in terms of, 'If we do this Fundie prayer, you may comply or 'Reject God.' He just seems to be in favor of picking one of the two.

Hi PaganPlace,

S'OK.

Farnaz

Let me offer a unexpected word of praise for Cal Thomas. He clearly sees that mandating prayer is wrong, both to perfect religious freedom and to make religion meaningful.

*side note.*

BTW, Farnaz, I took a little break a while ago, and then could not get back to our previous conversation, I wasn't ignoring you. Sorry! :)

I don't think a moment of silence is necessary. I would love to see the military take a more Buddhist point of view. For many who practice Buddhism, in no way all who practice but at least a good number, when they sit down to a meal they bow their heads and say "Thank You". that's all. It's a thank you for the opportunity to eat, for the people who cooked/served the meal, for whatever higher power that person believes in, for the land that grew the food, and the animals that gave up their lives. It seems so much simpler and something everyone, religious and non religious alike, could support.

A moment of silence during which people who wish to pray may do so seems a reasonable compromise that respects the rights of everyone, including the right of God to hear only from those interested in speaking to Him.
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Why does there need to be a moment of silence before a meal? Let those who don't wish to pray get down to the business of eating. Let those who wish to pray do so. Surely their respective deities will be able to hear their prayers over the scraping of utensils on plates.

If the situation weren't as volatile as it is, if it didn't go way beyond prayers at meals into an all out attempt by Christian fundamentalists to coopt the military, a moment of silence might be a reasonable compromise.

Not speaking for sixty seconds couldn't harm anyone in this all too unreflective culture. In fact, I'd like to see it institutionalized! (Just kidding, sort of.) Unfortunately, until something is done about the current problem, endemic since Reagan, compromise will only result in more of the same.

Cal

It's a free country; people can pray, or not, can't they?

Why a moment of silence?

Right on Cal. But the moment of silence in itself is a prayer isn't it? Fundamentalists never compromise so it's either on or off with them.

You left chaplains out. In this new military age they may well be the commanders. Seems our boys have kept the faith and let the enemy take refuge in churches, (mosques) yet we won. In prior wars chaplains were in the way. Back then it was understood the idea was to kill and many of the enemy as possible. No WW2 commander wanted chaplains and their 5th commandment hanging around calling prayer meetings and blessing everything -suggested troops should take the 5th and save their souls. Seems winning has a different face these days. Now exactly what is it we've won?

For the benefit of those that don't know what we've won: before we could buy Iraqi oil at market price. Now that we've won we can buy Iraqi oil at what the traffic will bear.

And, Reverend Thomas, you do realize that the fact you phrase things *this way:*

"A moment of silence during which people who wish to pray may do so seems a reasonable compromise that respects the rights of everyone, including the right of God to hear only from those interested in speaking to Him."

...Illustrates why prayers before mandatory meals (Or even forcing others to choose between a nice meal and appearing to conform) ...aren't helpful.

Someone made it that way. Didn't have to be so, but it is.

"Who started meal prayers anyway? Very odd practice to say the least. Based on the chaotic nature of raising crops, farmers should be thanked and not god/natural law"

Actually, those prayers were "started" by people who raised their own food and thanked their Gods that they got to *eat* it. The separation you imagine did not exist. :)

Who started meal prayers anyway? Very odd practice to say the least. Based on the chaotic nature of raising crops, farmers should be thanked and not god/natural law who/that introduced/evolved said chaos via the Big Bang and the innate "gifts" of free will and future.

The chaplains are there to serve the needs of their religious members of the academies. When the meal crowd is mixed, meal prayers if desired should be said silently.