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What a Shame, This whole blog sounds so fimiliar. It reminds me of Noah's time, when he was building the Ark. Maybe we should ask the spiritual experts of those times to comment?

Keep it up Mr Cal (Noah) Thomas, at least at judgment time, they can't say: they were not warned. I know it braeks the heart of those who "know" this Good News to be true, but like a previous writer wrote, exercise your free will. I hope you all choose life!!!!!

Michael:

I have re-read my post and yours and frankly I am a little confused by your response.

Yes, you did most certainly use the word HATE. There is no disputing this.

Yes, claiming that those who disagree with one's position is tantamount to "hate" is absolutly incorrect. I was right to point it out. You were incorrect to imply that it was a straw man argument.

Yes, in my hasty typing I made some spelling errors, however I believe my post was a sound and well presented reply to yours.

I wrote nothing hateful. I honestly wonder if you actually understand what hate is.

Disagreement is not hate, Michael.

Furthermore, I made no claims to "celebrate diversity" I am not even sure what that reference is about. I made no reference to celebrating diversity in my original post. Nor did I ever claim anything about my beliefs concerning the creation of the universe/world. Nor for that matter, did I make any claims about the existence of God.

You seem to be making ridiculous and unfounded assumptions about the both the text and subtext of my post.

Frankly this response is a little beneath me, but I am a little bored and it is late so here I am.

I stand by my original post. Cal Thomas in my opinion is usually disingenous, simplistic and generally full of beans about matters of faith. God is more complex and deserves better

Judging by the tone and content of your posts, you are either a dishonest person or a fool. I am sorry to point this out but you did choose to respond.

Michael:

I have re-read my post and yours and frankly I am a little confused by your response.

Yes, you did most certainly use the word HATE. There is no disputing this.

Yes, claiming that those who disagree with one's position is tantamount to "hate" is absolutly incorrect. I was right to point it out. You were incorrect to imply that it was a straw man argument.

Yes, in my hasty typing I made some spelling errors, however I believe my post was a sound and well presented reply to yours.

I wrote nothing hateful. I honestly wonder if you actually understand what hate is.

Disagreement is not hate, Michael.

Furthermore, I made no claims to "celebrate diversity" I am not even sure what that reference is about. I made no reference to celebrating diversity in my original post. Nor did I ever claim anything about my beliefs concerning the creation of the universe/world. Nor for that matter, did I make any claims about the existence of God.

You seem to be making ridiculous and unfounded assumptions about the both the text and subtext of my post.

Frankly this response is a little beneath me, but I am a little bored and it is late so here I am.

I stand by my original post. Cal Thomas in my opinion is usually disingenous, simplistic and generally full of beans about matters of faith. God is more coplex and deserves better

Judging by the tone and content of your posts, you are either a dishonest person or a fool. I am sorry to point this out but you did choose to respond.

E Favorite - It was a paraphrase of Christ....NOT my direct quote (John 15:18-19)...it's in Black and BLUE not black and white....what was that about lying?

And I said it "was" not used....Now I remember a lesson from the '90s...It depends on what the meaning of the word "was" was.

When there are no absolutes and no god....it's fun huh?

Michael - here's a direct quote of yours: "They hated Him and they will hate you and me. Just remember, that's a privilege!!!"

Here's another: "First, the word HATE was never used..."

You said it, Michael. It's in Black and White.

Thou Shalt Not Lie.

Dade: First, the word HATE was never used...but since you brought it up: "simplistic, disingenuous and generally full of beans" doesn't sound like you are "Celebrating Diversity"...sounds like you are "Celebrating Hate"... and remember as the bumper sticker reads...."HATE IS NOT A FAMILY VALUE."

Second, you stating "thoses [a misspelling] who question or doubt as be full of hate is a weak, intellectual cop out" is a straw man! Those who think there is no God, now there's faith (albeit a weak and intellectual cop out). They believe there was NOTHING, and then there was SOMETHING! WOW!!! One question....how do you know that's how it all began? WERE YOU THERE? After all doesn't science have to be OBSERVABLE? So it looks like atheists have a FAITH TOO...that's what they BELIEVE (or have FAITH IN). However THAT seems rather simplistic, disingenuous and generally full of beans! So stop trying to shove your FAITH down our throats!

Dade: "I don't hate Cal or anyone else for that matter but I believe he is simlistic, disingenuous and genereally full of beans when it comes to spiritual matters."

Now you're being woefully unkind to beans.

Michael:

Do you really equate those who point out Cal's hypocrisy and have real questions and doubts about what he write as people who HATE?

Merely painting all thoses who question or doubt as be full of hate is a weak, intellectual cop out.

I don't hate Cal or anyone else for that matter but I believe he is simlistic, disingenuous and genereally full of beans when it comes to spiritual matters.

So, what if you are a Christian but don't want to go to heaven?

Cal,

Isn't it strange that all these wonderful non-believers are being so KIND in their words and so TOLERANT in their views toward you. It sounds like that's the way to go! This just shows who the hypocrites REALLY are. You are a true believer who is not ashamed of Christ. I thank God for your stand with Christ. They hated Him and they will hate you and me. Just remember, that's a privilege!!!

Oops - the post attributed to Terra on June 30, 2007 8:54 PM, is actually from me, TO Terra.

once again Henry is not telling the COMPLETE truth.

I know he devoutly believes in the Moon Goddess.

Thanks Wiccan. ONCE again i completely agree.

and please note that i am a devout atheist.

love
henry

Henry James-

Thanks for catching our back. The thing that frustrates me so much is that people like the Christian Civic League of Maine will tell you they love America because here we are free, but let some poor s.o.b. try to use that freedom (like freedom of worship) and hear them howl. And Lady Terra is right, so many Christians rage that moderate Muslims do not condemn the actions of Muslims extremists, but keep real quiet when it's their coreligionists doing wrong. Praise the Lady there are Christians who walk the talk.

Betty has a point: getting rid of Theology would be on a par with getting rid of Astrology, except, in both cases, as Parlor entertainment.

A nonprofit web site defines Theology this way:
"Theology is a science, an attempt to present what we can know and understand about God in an organized and understandable manner."

What DO we KNOW about God?? Nothing. Absolutely nothing. According to any meaningful philosophical definition of the verb "know".

Theology is the attempt to put our complete lack of KNOWLEDGE about God into an organized and understandable system.

Does anyone else see the problem here?

Remember, I was the novelist who thought like a philosopher, and William was the philosopher who wrote like a novelist.

I think Henry meant

"Anti-THEOCRACY"

right bro?

Though losing theology would be good for the world also. As might losing Astrology. Same evidentiary basis.

Need I point out that

Cal Thomas is a Force Fighting Against

the good things the Pagans bring us:

Justice
Rationality
Respect for the Earth
Respect for differing cultures
Democracy
Anti-theology
Peace

The Integrity of Pagans

Let us all stand with Terra and Wiccan and Starhawk and deplore the ignorant and fearful prejudice of a few. I don't blame all Christians for this awful behavior, but all of us, Christian and Atheist, should stand up for the rights and integrity of Pagans.

I have learned so much about the wisdom and humanity of Pagans on this site from Terra and Wiccan and other Pagans.

They promote a wholistic connection with the earth and universe, an understanding of the fundamental energies of the universe, and a nurturing relation to their fellows. I thank you all for that: it has truly been a gift to me to communicate with you folks.

Love
Henry

Heaven is an Ancient Superstition
Heaven is Bad for Morality

without much serious contradiction, we all have established that
a. heaven is a myth that was spun at about about the time of the 7-day-creation story and the Serpant Who Talked. No serious grown-ups believe either story, and none should believe the Heaven superstition either. It is a Fairy Tale. Akin to the tooth fairy.

b. Heaven/Hell have been used by religious groups to control the behavior of their adherants.

The reward/punishment scheme is at the LOWEST level of moral reasoning, it promotes behavior based on extrinsic rewards and punishments rather than behavior based on truly moral intrinsic motivation.

Any dissent?

Or can we move on from this silly story and talk about serious moral issues in the world, like helping the poor, afflicting the powerful, and keeping wars to a minimum

Dont know for sure, but am guessing that the prejudice against pagans is completely out of misperception. Certainly that was my case. As a person raised roman catholic, we learned about pagans in sunday school as being primitive, devil worshipping non-christians. I had no idea until much later that the greek and roman civilizations were pagan and the library at Alexandria that was burned was pagan knowledge.

As far as I know, Pagans were just bad, ignorant people who predated christianity and didn't have the sense to accept Christ when he came along. This is what the nuns told us.

The first good pagans I heard about were in the DaVinci Code. They were fictional, of course. The first good "real" pagans I knew of were here on the forum. It's been a pleasure getting to know you.

Wiccan,

I have heard Christians demand that Muslims stand up and speak on the behavior of their co religionists, that are and have harmed others. Those same Christians will then promote or be silent on the kind of behavior that is harming, not only Lady Rita, but Democracy.

Wiccans and other Pagans get this kind of discrimination and because they are angry and fed up...get "you just hate Christians," from moron muggles like Frank.

There is a long list of hate being thrown at us, most of which is not even shared, so we do not know. But what we do know is horrendous...and I for one am saying enough is enough. It's time we stopped being so understanding and patient...The Rede has never been a guide for being a welcome mat for those who wish to wipe their feet on us..

We are in the sun, and I am not going back into the shadows. I know a 40 plus year old woman that will not practice her religion because her mother would not understand...her boyfriend will not allow her to pratice her faith because he does not agree with it. And there are thousands of Pagans liveing this Don't ask don't tell life. It is wrong. It's time to forget PST and take a stand. Now.

On July 4th Pagans are gathering at the Whitehouse in a rally for religious freedom...wanna make a bet there is nothing in the news about it? If there is it will be a 20 second sound bite; " Witches gather wanting freedom to do Witchcraft..." Booooo!

Sorry about the rant, I am really fed up with lies and inequality.

Goddess Bless us!
terra

Wiccan, you ask, "Is this really Christian behavior?"

I answer, unfortunately, is yes, this is Christian CONDONED behavior among a certain type of Christian. They think Jesus approves of this.

Viejita and other moderate/liberal Christians - I hope you're listening in. These are the kinds of people I'm afraid you're giving cover to. You have similar beliefs in the supernatural, but I doubt you have much else in common.

Terra-

This is outrageous! Not only did the Christian Civic League of Maine post a smear on Rita Moran, they edited or deleted comments that were supportive of her.

http://www.nonfluffy.com/archives/003609.html

Democrat County Chair Worships Witchcraft Goddess; Promotes Paganism

Rita Moran is well-known in Central Maine as the longstanding Kennebec County Democrat Chair and the the owner of Apple Valley Books at 121 Main Street in Winthrop. Less well-known is Moran's involvement in one of Maine's thriving underground pagan worship circles.

And it goes on from there. You can imagine that by now, people are a little nervous- they are posting the location of her store, her home, and multiple methods of contact. Anyone who visits Daily Kos regularly knows that they are inviting hatemongers to attack her. And it gets even more interesting in the comments section of the website.

"Right in the comment submission form, it states that an e-mail is required, but will not be published. If you read the comments, you will see that there are e-mails in the comments supporting Rita, that have been posted there by the CCL. There is also personal information, as much as they could find on Google- including addresses, phone numbers, and even dates of birth. The comments themselves have been heavily edited, as stated by some commenters on some of the Pagan blogs (I won't source this, to respect their privacy- but Googling "rita moran pagan" should cover it if you're curious)."

http://www.haloscan.com/comments/jasonpitzl/6593927590649909026/#231644

Is this really Christian behavior?

I dislike the word toleration...It puts people who are citizens, pay taxes and fight and die for this country in a position of merely being put up with.

A Wiccan who is a county Democratic Chairperson in Maine, has been attacked and given her walking papers, because of her religion. Is this toleration? Is that Democracy? Is that constitutional?

Toleration..a slighting word.

terra

Mark Eaton - There is no such thing as "Separtion of Church and State". No such wording exists in the Constitution nor Ammendments.

You are correct, but you fail to mention Jefferson's and Madison's views on the concept and its use by the Supreme Court on 25 occasions starting in 1878 (see below).

I would like to ask you a question, though. Would you really prefer to live in a country where there wasn't such a barrier, explicitly stated or otherwise?

The phrase separation of church and state is generally traced to a letter written by Thomas Jefferson in 1802 to the Danbury Baptists, in which he referred to the First Amendment of the United States Constitution as creating a "wall of separation" between church and state. The phrase was then quoted by the United States Supreme Court first in 1878, and then in a series of cases starting in 1947.

Another early user of the term was James Madison, the principal drafter of the United States Bill of Rights, who often wrote of "total separation of the church from the state." [5] "Strongly guarded . . . is the separation between religion and government in the Constitution of the United States," Madison wrote, and he declared, "practical distinction between Religion and Civil Government is essential to the purity of both, and as guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States."

Cal,

Were you and the Mouth of Sauron separated at birth?

Daniel, when you say, "It is only by analogy, that we extend toleration to people of other non-Christian beliefs" -- who's "we?"

Mark Eaton

According to the "Webster's New World Dictionary" toleration means "freedom to hold religious views that differ from the established ones."

And the reason why we needed a doctrine of toleration which culminated in the American separation of church and state is because the Christians of Europe were murdering each other.

So actually, toleratiion was not dreamed up to accept atheists or agnostics in your so-called PC explantaion; toleration was a necessary condition for normal civilization to continue in Europe; the only other option was total and complete Christian suicidal annhilation.

It is only by analogy, that we extend toleration to people of other non-Christian beliefs.

There is no such thing a separation of church and state? I could swear there was. Oh, well, I guess I must have imagined it.

Mark Eaton -- here's the wording:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

It's in the 1st amendment of the US Constitution/

For more, go to
http://www.adl.org/issue_religious_freedom/separation_cs_primer.asp

Daniel:

Wow, have you been led to believe false information. There is no such thing as "Separtion of Church and State". No such wording exists in the Constitution nor Ammendments. There is prohibition of the establishment of a State Religion. Such a doctrine is the invention of later Supreme Court justices.

As far as toleration, people were not as tolerant as we are today. Just look into people who practiced witchcraft or shamanism. They were considered heathen and killed, or forced to convert to the religion of the conquerors.

Toleration is a modern day phenomenon. It is a desire to eliminate any and all things that people may consider an insult. A desire to create a PC world.

No good can come from religious arguments.

Many people believe many strange things. It is not necessary to get them all together.

The United States Constitution was implemented just 141 years after the Peace of Wesphalia, which concluded the disastrous Thirty Years War, the last of the great relgious wars of Europe.

Religious tolerance was incorprated into the Constitution, as the the separation of church and state. In those days "tolerance" and "toleration" were seen as good things. Toleration of the beliefs of others was seen as the only way people of many backgrounds and beliefs could ever co-exist.

Now, that word, "tolerance" is seen as a bad thing. Forums such as this are an expression of modern intolerance run wild. It is a bad thing, not a good thing.

Daniel and Joel:

Maybe turning off the computer for a while and sitting in a cool, dark room might do you some good. Maybe go for a walk.

The rest of us can manage sharing our opinions in cyberspace just fine without you.

Thank you.

Daniel

I agree there are some people who are so locked in that having them move their position or even consider yours is remote. If nothing else you get an understanding of how these people think. I take solace in the chance for evolving my beliefs is much greater than theirs, which is my opinion of course.

If we are focused on getting everyone to one belief system then that is a very daunting and perhaps hopeless task.

However what seems to be more attainable is to get the majority to come to some common understanding that transcends individual religious or atheistic beliefs. For example we are all one, show compassion and tolerance to all even your enemies.

I believe a forum such as this is one tool to assist us in getting there. It is not an easy road but one I consider worth the journey.

Daniel,

Please do not subscribe to the fallacy that only silly, ignorant Believers post here. I do not believe you are a silly uneducated person because you do not believe as I do. Nor do I insult you simply because of your lack of belief. Doing so is the stuff that really causes religious wars.

Many people have commited attrocities in the name of Christ. It does not make them Christians. Not everyone who calls himself a Christian lives the life of Christ.

So many that post here have great intentions. We want to share the beliefs that we have. But to do so in an "in your face" way is completely wrong. You must see my life before you will trust my words. Consequently, I will not say "You must be saved" directly to your face unless you ask me for my beliefs. Cal Thomas has done the same here. He has stated his beliefs for all to view.

But, where are your beliefs? Have you stated them? Where are your answers to the big questions of life? How does a seed grow after being dead? How do our brains remember faces after years and years? Is there punishment for the ones who "get away" with their crime? Is there reward for the repentant heart? These are questions that should be answered by someone who has no faults and has no human frailty. Someone who can prove to the world that they have never hurt another nor done things in any way selfishly. Such a person does not exist, unless you share our faith.

You 2 cents.

You know how people expressed their 2 cents worth in the olden days, when they discussed relgion?

It's called the Thirty Years War. Look it up.

It was as mean as any modern war. One-third of the population of Germany was destoyed. The German nation did not recover until, Bismark in the 1870's, which lead pretty directly to Hitler.

And all in the name of Jesus Christ.

There is not much value or worth in people arguing over religion. There just ain't!

I must disagree on the suggestion to bringing this site to an end.

As much as it is sometimes disheartening to see the narrow mindedness and even hateful posts it is also an opportunity for those that stand for love, compassion and tolerance to demonstrate these traits.

That does not mean we are passive and accept hateful posts. We call them out for what they are but in an appropriate manner. After all that is real life. People are different and some are hateful, narrow minded and selfish. Discussing the concepts on this site in a bubble has limited application. We must learn to deal with all people.

I look at these people as an opportunity to change their minds, better my communication or unit those that disagree with hate. When you asked God/ the universe for patience does he give you patience or the opportunity to be patient?

The only way to move forward is through dialogue, even uncomfortable and sometimes unproductive dialogue.

I have three main reasons for participating on this site. First I want to better understating of religions, atheism and faith in general. Secondly this gives me an opportunity to voice my ideas and opinions. The last reason is it gives me a chance to learn how to better communicate my position with other people.

Understanding others and communicating your ideas so they get across are two essential elements to moving forward as a society.

I find great value in this site. My 2 cents.

Peace.

Remember the movie "Carrie" with Sissy Spacek? Remember Carrie's mother? I think she is the type of Christian who posts here.

Yes but!

There is always a yet but...

Alot of the people who call themselves Christians, who post here, are not well; I think I have said before that being a "maniac for Jesus" is not the same thing as being a Christian.

You cannot argue with sick and diseased minds.

I think most of the people who post here and call themselves Christisns probably do not even attend any kind of church regularly. Just watching televangelicals, posting rude comments on the internet, and pouring over and over the same few Bible verses is not a healthy thing, and is not the mark of any kind of relgion, much less Christiantiy.

Daniel and Joel Cohen - To me it sounds like your're embarrassed that your co-religionists are making such fools of themselves. I don't blame you.

Instead of asking the authorities to cut off the conversation, I suggest you appeal directly to the people in question to reconsider their beliefs and their attitudes.

I would also like to second Daniel's comment/suggestion:

"There is alot of ignorance and a mean spirit in most of these posts. I think the Washington Post should do away with this, and chaulk it up to a good try, but a dismal failure.

Maybe, those of us who feel this way, should start making frequent posts here, begging the Washington Post to take this whold thing away."

Please, if you agree with Daniel and me that the Post has erred, make your opinion known!

"Joel,

I am sorry that you have such a cowardly outlook on life. I happen to believe that your fellow man is more than capable of handling a chat board that deals with people expressing various theories and opinions regarding Heaven and Hell.

Perhaps you should seek therapy for your sad and unreasoned fear."

Dear CJ,

You are right that I am in fear of these discussions in a place like the Washington Post. There is certainly a place for chat boards about Heaven and Hell, may they flourish, but the WP is not such a place.

I do not believe my fear is unreasoned. I see reasons for it in the papers every day, in countries where debate about who has the true religion dominate public discourse, along with death squads, decapitations, and other such barbaric activities.

What we see in the daily press about religious arguments in distant countries is a mirror of our own Western civilization only a few centuries ago. The things that revulse us today in other places were commonplace in Europe and early America.

It is only recently that we have agreed NOT to argue with each other about theological truth and revelation in the public arena, and only recently that true believers from our own religious families have stopped persecuting each other. My own father, as a child in the old country, had to hide under the bed on Easter morning from fear of physical harm from proponents of the state religion.

Skip forward a generation, and change continents. When I was a kid going to school in Providence, Rhode Island,
the teachers would breakup recess-period discussions about religion. They, as good Americans, were absolutely right, and had learned the correct lessons from the recent past. In a secular society including many people of many faiths, these discussions do not belong in public places. The WP is, in my opinion, such a public place. There are other venues where they can happen, but not in court, not in school, not in a newspaper of record.

Yes, I am afraid -- I see us losing and forgetting the lessons of the Enlightenment. Fear as a spur to action can be a good thing.

To the editors of the Washington Post I repeat my urgent charge: Stop!

Joel,

I am sorry that you have such a cowardly outlook on life. I happen to believe that your fellow man is more than capable of handling a chat board that deals with people expressing various theories and opinions regarding Heaven and Hell.

Perhaps you should seek therapy for your sad and unreasoned fear.

"Because God is holy, He cannot abide the unholy and that is why hell exists…for the unholy who would pollute perfection."

Any change of perfection results in imperfection, Cal. Perfection's pretty unforgiving that way. So your god is by his own perfection utterly static. Even a single thought would be a change to his perfect status, no matter how slight. He can't want anything, he can't feel anything, he can't do anything, he can't think anything.

Your god is utterly static, therefore utterly irrelevant.

You set the parameters, Cal. Of course, he could be imperfect, but then it'd be silly for imperfect beings to worship a fellow imperfect being.

Roy has been lied to. He thinks we're all children of God.

Breaking God's moral commandments have made us children of the devil.

See 1 John 3:10

Daniel:

"Joel Cohen

You said:

"I am amazed to see such discussions under the auspices of the Washington Post. What a short sighted and historically ignorant initiative! It needs to stop. There are very good reasons to ban these arguments from schools, courthouses, and newspapers of record."

I am in total agreement. I am a Christian. Yet, it is my observation that almost none of the comments from relgious people or Christians relate, in even a small way, to my conception of Christianity."

Daniel, since you have raised the issue, yes, I too consider myself religious. And I, too, am repelled by the concept of "religion" that Mr Thomas, and some others, set forth in their posts.

But whatever. The main issue is not our opinions, but the deeply mistaken tack of this newspaper in hosting such a hopelessly divisive conversation

The point is that arguing about Heaven and Hell is INAPPROPRIATE, and it needs to cease as there is no resolution even remotely possible to such arguments. This is how religious wars get drummed up, and persecutions and suicide bombers....as citizens we need to converse about secular matters and leave this other discourse to other and mire private contexts. That is the lesson of the Enlightenment and of Western, secular civil society. This kind of debate is the stuff of discord and ultimately death.

Washington Post editors, stop.

Stop!

Daniel, Joel:

I am just curious as to why this forum is so upsetting to you that you would like to see it shut down?

Frankly I think it is a pretty good idea to allow various voices in and around the world of "Faith" post their opinions on a variety of subjects and then allow the general public to chime in.

What is the harm?

I am a mainstream Christian and I found this site a few months ago and it has been an eye opener. I have encountered a number of thought provoking opinions that differ from mine (sometimes greatly), but I hardly feel that my faith or beliefs are threatened by them. In fact I have been quite comforted to know that there are so many others out there who have similar questions and doubts as myself.

Sure some folks who comment here are mean and ill informed but many are not and have much to add to the public discourse. Nobody is putting a gun to your head (please tell us if there is) to come here, read the posts and comment.

If this type of forum is such a threat or danger to your ideas and faith....then the obvious question is:

What good is your faith?

The facts:

God sends sends some sinners to hell and He saves others.

God will save who He chooses. He is not obligated to save anyone at all. Anyone that is saved from hell is saved purely by His grace.

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." Romans 9:14

You say, "that's not fair!"?

His response:

"But who are you, O man, to talk back to God?" Romans 9:20

Joel Cohen

You said:

"I am amazed to see such discussions under the auspices of the Washington Post. What a short sighted and historically ignorant initiative! It needs to stop. There are very good reasons to ban these arguments from schools, courthouses, and newspapers of record."

I am in total agreement. I am a Christian. Yet, it is my observation that almost none of the comments from relgious people or Christians relate, in even a small way, to my conception of Christianity. There is alot of ignorance and a mean spirit in most of these posts. I think the Washington Post should do away with this, and chaulk it up to a good try, but a dismal failure.

Maybe, those of us who feel this way, should start making frequent posts here, begging the Washington Post to take this whold thing away.

If there was the tiniest of chances that I would be going to hell for all eternity, I wouldn't waste any of my time earning money and then spending it on SUVs and hair-plugs, etc. As Cal said, if you are wrong, it will be too late to undo those vain decisions.
Right, Cal? All of eternity.

Superstition is for idiots.

"Joel Cohen -- I think this question, however ridiculous, is a good thing. Lets people see just how wacky it is.

Heaven and Hell are things everyone knows about, but rarely talk about.

Here's our chance."

I agree, these are wacky ideas. But what kind of chance is it?

For centuries, such subjects were part of public discourse. People would debate them, and the losers would be burned at the stake. (see the history of medieval Spain for some prime examples).

One of the acquisitions of the Enlightenment was the banishment of these kinds of debates from the citizen realm. People were free to share their religious beliefs with like-minded souls, but on the public square and in newspapers the debate would be about secular, public matters.

Result: fewer people burned at the stake and thrown into dungeons for holding the "wrong" beliefs. This is progress.

What I see in this "On Religion" blog/column, all trapped out it CNN type twinky photos, is a slide back into the Middle Ages. These debates are a. sterile and b. dangerous.

I am amazed to see such discussions under the auspices of the Washington Post. What a short sighted and historically ignorant initiative! It needs to stop. There are very good reasons to ban these arguments from schools, courthouses, and newspapers of record.

Danny Boy - Cal Thomas is hardly being denied the opportunity to "speak in the public square." His essay and photo top this page. He has written numerous such essays to which he's received numerous responses.

His participation here is voluntary, as is yours and mine.

None of us are in church right now - we can express our opinions and agree or diagree as we like.

Roy: you cannot influence Christians with your compassion for burning babies. Christianity is essentially sado-masochistic. You must not forget that.

All of this sounds comforting, but it is like a pitchman for a bogus product. It isn’t true.

You should have stopped there, Cal. There is no heaven or hell or god or gods, it isn't true.

If heaven is full of hypocrites and rednecks like Cal Thomas, Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and yes even the much esteemed redneck Christian Billy Graham -- well then no one with brains would want to end up there.

Mr. Mark,
I wonder if "chariots of iron" includes planes, trains, automobiles, motorcycles, bicycles, and tanks. Things to make you say "Hmmmm...."

A compasionate God with unconditional love fries his babies in hell?

A compasionate God with unconditional love fries his babies in hell?

Great Job Mr. Thomas;

Most of these "Heaven/Hell" responses have been a dogs breakfast, but yours is right on.

How did this delusional dult make it into adulthood?

And a syndicated columnist?

I haven't heard so many non-sequiter's strung together in quite sometime.

When are people like this going to wake up and realize that the emperor isn't wearing any clothes? They have been perpetuating this nonsense for far too long....

Danny Boy,

Many of these posts actually ask some interesting questions and make some interesting and intelligent points about the meaning and conclusion of Cal's post.

Responding and giving one's own opinion....whatever that opinion might be (thats right even disagrement) is kinda, sorta, the whole point of this blog.

I know, I know: Interactive free expression, God's people from all walks of life annonymously sharing their views.....kind of "scary".

Right.

"He cannot abide the unholy and that is why hell exists…for the unholy who would pollute perfection."

Well, heck, Mr. Thomas, ANY deviation from perfection pollutes perfection. ANY change to perfection results in imperfection.

That's why God is utterly static. He don't feel nothin', he don't think nothin', he don't want nothin', he don't need nothin'. He's perfect. Even a THOUGHT would change what God is. AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE PERFECTION. ANY change to perfection results in imperfection. That's what PERFECT means. It is absolute. There ain't no qualifiers. It's like "unique." Nothing is VERY unique or QUITE unique. It's either unique or it isn't.

That's why God is utterly static, and therefore irrelevant.

"He cannot abide the unholy and that is why hell exists…for the unholy who would pollute perfection."

Well, heck, Mr. Thomas, ANY deviation from perfection pollutes perfection. ANY change to perfection results in imperfection.

That's why God is utterly static. He don't feel nothin', he don't think nothin', he don't want nothin', he don't need nothin'. He's perfect. Even a THOUGHT would change what God is. AND YOU CAN'T CHANGE PERFECTION. ANY change to perfection results in imperfection. That's what PERFECT means. It is absolute. There ain't no qualifiers. It's like "unique." Nothing is VERY unique or QUITE unique. It's either unique or it isn't.

That's why God is utterly static, and therefore irrelevant.

I am amazed at the venom and intolerance towards Cal Thomas... and by so many who claim to be loving and tolerant. Selective tolerance indeed.

I am also amazed by the logic of many, being so ABSOLUTELY sure that there are no religious ABSOLUTES. Or moral absolutes (except their own moral declarations, which are apparently absolute). The power of one's presupposition is evident indeed.

I am also surprised by the number who would deny Cal Thomas and those who hold his beliefs any opportunity to speak in the public square. Talk about intolerance! And arrogance. The comments degrading the intelligence of any one holding a similar or traditional religious belief system (over 100 million Americans) are scary.

Cal Thomas presents us with a choice, between heaven and hell. But there's a prior and more fundamental choice to be made. Do you believe 3000 year-old stories, provincial and often self-contradictory stories, concocted by illiterate nomads, which purport to explain the origin of the world and humanity? Or do you credit the vastly more profound, self-consistent, and awe-inspiring picture of the universe offered by modern science? Do you abide by a tribal morality that sanctions human sacrifice, genital mutilation, and a generally jaundiced view of human nature? Or do you subscribe to a more universal morality, based on a common shared humanity, and committed to the reduction of suffering?

And do you have good reasons for the decisions that you come to on questions like these?

The worst thing about pieces like the one Cal Thomas has written is that they rely on fear and the "authority of Scripture" in order to prevent people from really considering the fundamental question: is Christianity (or Islam, or Judaism, or ...) actually likely to be TRUE?

Ideas of god, heaven and hell are deeply embedded in the human psyche. Ninety percent of the human race is said to believe in god and an afterlife. If the goal of these discussions is to add to our knowledge of life and the universe, we must ask ourselves if there is a naturalistic explanation of how, and when, religion came to humankind. Please consider the following:

The earliest religions of historical record are those of ancient Greece and Egypt 4000 – 5000 years ago. Prior to that we know only the religious cave-art of France and the seemingly pious burial customs of Neanderthal Man, both about 40,000 years ago. That's as far back as the fossil record on religion will take us. But the cave art and the burial customs were highly sophisticated for their time, so mankind's search for religion's origins must go far back before then. How can we possibly go back to earlier times? Anthropology and evolutionary psychology coupled with our knowledge of how modern humans behave individually and in groups may make it possible.

(Many devout readers have rejected the science of evolution and believe the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. To those who are still with me, I urge you, if you want your religion to have any future relevance, to incorporate modern knowledge into your liturgies).

The evolutionary lineage of the great apes and that of humanoids separated from a common ancestor about 7 million years ago. The modern chimpanzee and humans, close relatives, exhibit group behavior, therefore, so must our common ancestor have done. Group formation demands leadership and the dominant male, with his superior strength, arose to fill this role. The next important date is about 1.5 millions years ago when the human brain began to expand, tripling in size by 100,000 years ago, when our sapient selves emerged. Language is said to have evolved 500,000 – 250,000 years ago.

Our pre-sapient ancestors, then, existed for about 5.5 millions of years with a relatively small brain and without language in groups ruled by dominant males; and then continued, with slowly expanding brain, but still without language, for hundreds of thousands of years more. It is probable that Homo's intellectual state during this period was lower than that of the modern chimpanzee. There was no abstract thought; that was to come later with language. They knew no hope because they knew only the present. But they knew fear and pain. And the dominant male supplied these, in order to rule, in large measure.

One may imagine how the awesome power of the dominant male grew, and how each generation learned from anxious mothers to avoid his terrible wrath by total submission. Even today it is common to hear believers define religious belief as the 'fear of god'. Orthodox Jews name themselves haredi, a Hebrew term meaning one who fears god.

Gradually the dominant male took on otherworldly aspects. Perhaps, to quash rebellion, he vowed to return after death to punish ambitious pretenders who might otherwise plot to kill him. To his subjects "belief" was certain knowledge; "disbelief" incomprehensible, neither word occurring in their vocabulary. For here he was, this powerful being, standing before them every day, palpable and real, visible, audible, touchable, fearful. God was not a supernatural hidden power, but actually walked among them everyday, in the flesh.

The lengthy rule of generations of the dominant male would explain the universality of religion in the present day. It would explain also the power of religion. It has somehow been affixed to the neural interconnections of our brains over such a long period that it has come to be an integral part of what it means to be human.

Government and religion evolved together as mechanisms of societal control. What is important is that religion arose from natural, everyday pressures, not from some pre-Paleolithic philosopher ruminating on the nature of life. Nor from an extra-dimensional essence that took an interest in our affairs.

Ideas of god, heaven and hell are deeply embedded in the human psyche. Ninety percent of the human race is said to believe in god and an afterlife. If the goal of these discussions is to add to our knowledge of life and the universe, we must ask ourselves if there is a naturalistic explanation of how, and when, religion came to humankind. Please consider the following:

The earliest religions of historical record are those of ancient Greece and Egypt 4000 – 5000 years ago. Prior to that we know only the religious cave-art of France and the seemingly pious burial customs of Neanderthal Man, both about 40,000 years ago. That's as far back as the fossil record on religion will take us. But the cave art and the burial customs were highly sophisticated for their time, so mankind's search for religion's origins must go far back before then. How can we possibly go back to earlier times? Anthropology and evolutionary psychology coupled with our knowledge of how modern humans behave individually and in groups may make it possible.

(Many devout readers have rejected the science of evolution and believe the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. To those who are still with me, I urge you, if you want your religion to have any future relevance, to incorporate modern knowledge into your liturgies).

The evolutionary lineage of the great apes and that of humanoids separated from a common ancestor about 7 million years ago. The modern chimpanzee and humans, close relatives, exhibit group behavior, therefore, so must our common ancestor have done. Group formation demands leadership and the dominant male, with his superior strength, arose to fill this role. The next important date is about 1.5 millions years ago when the human brain began to expand, tripling in size by 100,000 years ago, when our sapient selves emerged. Language is said to have evolved 500,000 – 250,000 years ago.

Our pre-sapient ancestors, then, existed for about 5.5 millions of years with a relatively small brain and without language in groups ruled by dominant males; and then continued, with slowly expanding brain, but still without language, for hundreds of thousands of years more. It is probable that Homo's intellectual state during this period was lower than that of the modern chimpanzee. There was no abstract thought; that was to come later with language. They knew no hope because they knew only the present. But they knew fear and pain. And the dominant male supplied these, in order to rule, in large measure.

One may imagine how the awesome power of the dominant male grew, and how each generation learned from anxious mothers to avoid his terrible wrath by total submission. Even today it is common to hear believers define religious belief as the 'fear of god'. Orthodox Jews name themselves haredi, a Hebrew term meaning one who fears god.

Gradually the dominant male took on otherworldly aspects. Perhaps, to quash rebellion, he vowed to return after death to punish ambitious pretenders who might otherwise plot to kill him. To his subjects "belief" was certain knowledge; "disbelief" incomprehensible, neither word occurring in their vocabulary. For here he was, this powerful being, standing before them every day, palpable and real, visible, audible, touchable, fearful. God was not a supernatural hidden power, but actually walked among them everyday, in the flesh.

The lengthy rule of generations of the dominant male would explain the universality of religion in the present day. It would explain also the power of religion. It has somehow been affixed to the neural interconnections of our brains over such a long period that it has come to be an integral part of what it means to be human.

Government and religion evolved together as mechanisms of societal control. What is important is that religion arose from natural, everyday pressures, not from some pre-Paleolithic philosopher ruminating on the nature of life. Nor from an extra-dimensional essence that took an interest in our affairs.

Ideas of god, heaven and hell are deeply embedded in the human psyche. Ninety percent of the human race is said to believe in god and an afterlife. If the goal of these discussions is to add to our knowledge of life and the universe, we must ask ourselves if there is a naturalistic explanation of how, and when, religion came to humankind. Please consider the following:

The earliest religions of historical record are those of ancient Greece and Egypt 4000 – 5000 years ago. Prior to that we know only the religious cave-art of France and the seemingly pious burial customs of Neanderthal Man, both about 40,000 years ago. That's as far back as the fossil record on religion will take us. But the cave art and the burial customs were highly sophisticated for their time, so mankind's search for religion's origins must go far back before then. How can we possibly go back to earlier times? Anthropology and evolutionary psychology coupled with our knowledge of how modern humans behave individually and in groups may make it possible.

(Many devout readers have rejected the science of evolution and believe the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. To those who are still with me, I urge you, if you want your religion to have any future relevance, to incorporate modern knowledge into your liturgies).

The evolutionary lineage of the great apes and that of humanoids separated from a common ancestor about 7 million years ago. The modern chimpanzee and humans, close relatives, exhibit group behavior, therefore, so must our common ancestor have done. Group formation demands leadership and the dominant male, with his superior strength, arose to fill this role. The next important date is about 1.5 millions years ago when the human brain began to expand, tripling in size by 100,000 years ago, when our sapient selves emerged. Language is said to have evolved 500,000 – 250,000 years ago.

Our pre-sapient ancestors, then, existed for about 5.5 millions of years with a relatively small brain and without language in groups ruled by dominant males; and then continued, with slowly expanding brain, but still without language, for hundreds of thousands of years more. It is probable that Homo's intellectual state during this period was lower than that of the modern chimpanzee. There was no abstract thought; that was to come later with language. They knew no hope because they knew only the present. But they knew fear and pain. And the dominant male supplied these, in order to rule, in large measure.

One may imagine how the awesome power of the dominant male grew, and how each generation learned from anxious mothers to avoid his terrible wrath by total submission. Even today it is common to hear believers define religious belief as the 'fear of god'. Orthodox Jews name themselves haredi, a Hebrew term meaning one who fears god.

Gradually the dominant male took on otherworldly aspects. Perhaps, to quash rebellion, he vowed to return after death to punish ambitious pretenders who might otherwise plot to kill him. To his subjects "belief" was certain knowledge; "disbelief" incomprehensible, neither word occurring in their vocabulary. For here he was, this powerful being, standing before them every day, palpable and real, visible, audible, touchable, fearful. God was not a supernatural hidden power, but actually walked among them everyday, in the flesh.

The lengthy rule of generations of the dominant male would explain the universality of religion in the present day. It would explain also the power of religion. It has somehow been affixed to the neural interconnections of our brains over such a long period that it has come to be an integral part of what it means to be human.

Government and religion evolved together as mechanisms of societal control. What is important is that religion arose from natural, everyday pressures, not from some pre-Paleolithic philosopher ruminating on the nature of life. Nor from an extra-dimensional essence that took an interest in our affairs.

Ideas of god, heaven and hell are deeply embedded in the human psyche. Ninety percent of the human race is said to believe in god and an afterlife. If the goal of these discussions is to add to our knowledge of life and the universe, we must ask ourselves if there is a naturalistic explanation of how, and when, religion came to humankind. Please consider the following:

The earliest religions of historical record are those of ancient Greece and Egypt 4000 – 5000 years ago. Prior to that we know only the religious cave-art of France and the seemingly pious burial customs of Neanderthal Man, both about 40,000 years ago. That's as far back as the fossil record on religion will take us. But the cave art and the burial customs were highly sophisticated for their time, so mankind's search for religion's origins must go far back before then. How can we possibly go back to earlier times? Anthropology and evolutionary psychology coupled with our knowledge of how modern humans behave individually and in groups may make it possible.

(Many devout readers have rejected the science of evolution and believe the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. To those who are still with me, I urge you, if you want your religion to have any future relevance, to incorporate modern knowledge into your liturgies).

The evolutionary lineage of the great apes and that of humanoids separated from a common ancestor about 7 million years ago. The modern chimpanzee and humans, close relatives, exhibit group behavior, therefore, so must our common ancestor have done. Group formation demands leadership and the dominant male, with his superior strength, arose to fill this role. The next important date is about 1.5 millions years ago when the human brain began to expand, tripling in size by 100,000 years ago, when our sapient selves emerged. Language is said to have evolved 500,000 – 250,000 years ago.

Our pre-sapient ancestors, then, existed for about 5.5 millions of years with a relatively small brain and without language in groups ruled by dominant males; and then continued, with slowly expanding brain, but still without language, for hundreds of thousands of years more. It is probable that Homo's intellectual state during this period was lower than that of the modern chimpanzee. There was no abstract thought; that was to come later with language. They knew no hope because they knew only the present. But they knew fear and pain. And the dominant male supplied these, in order to rule, in large measure.

One may imagine how the awesome power of the dominant male grew, and how each generation learned from anxious mothers to avoid his terrible wrath by total submission. Even today it is common to hear believers define religious belief as the 'fear of god'. Orthodox Jews name themselves haredi, a Hebrew term meaning one who fears god.

Gradually the dominant male took on otherworldly aspects. Perhaps, to quash rebellion, he vowed to return after death to punish ambitious pretenders who might otherwise plot to kill him. To his subjects "belief" was certain knowledge; "disbelief" incomprehensible, neither word occurring in their vocabulary. For here he was, this powerful being, standing before them every day, palpable and real, visible, audible, touchable, fearful. God was not a supernatural hidden power, but actually walked among them everyday, in the flesh.

The lengthy rule of generations of the dominant male would explain the universality of religion in the present day. It would explain also the power of religion. It has somehow been affixed to the neural interconnections of our brains over such a long period that it has come to be an integral part of what it means to be human.

Government and religion evolved together as mechanisms of societal control. What is important is that religion arose from natural, everyday pressures, not from some pre-Paleolithic philosopher ruminating on the nature of life. Nor from an extra-dimensional essence that took an interest in our affairs.

Ideas of god, heaven and hell are deeply embedded in the human psyche. Ninety percent of the human race is said to believe in god and an afterlife. If the goal of these discussions is to add to our knowledge of life and the universe, we must ask ourselves if there is a naturalistic explanation of how, and when, religion came to humankind. Please consider the following:

The earliest religions of historical record are those of ancient Greece and Egypt 4000 – 5000 years ago. Prior to that we know only the religious cave-art of France and the seemingly pious burial customs of Neanderthal Man, both about 40,000 years ago. That's as far back as the fossil record on religion will take us. But the cave art and the burial customs were highly sophisticated for their time, so mankind's search for religion's origins must go far back before then. How can we possibly go back to earlier times? Anthropology and evolutionary psychology coupled with our knowledge of how modern humans behave individually and in groups may make it possible.

(Many devout readers have rejected the science of evolution and believe the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. To those who are still with me, I urge you, if you want your religion to have any future relevance, to incorporate modern knowledge into your liturgies).

The evolutionary lineage of the great apes and that of humanoids separated from a common ancestor about 7 million years ago. The modern chimpanzee and humans, close relatives, exhibit group behavior, therefore, so must our common ancestor have done. Group formation demands leadership and the dominant male, with his superior strength, arose to fill this role. The next important date is about 1.5 millions years ago when the human brain began to expand, tripling in size by 100,000 years ago, when our sapient selves emerged. Language is said to have evolved 500,000 – 250,000 years ago.

Our pre-sapient ancestors, then, existed for about 5.5 millions of years with a relatively small brain and without language in groups ruled by dominant males; and then continued, with slowly expanding brain, but still without language, for hundreds of thousands of years more. It is probable that Homo's intellectual state during this period was lower than that of the modern chimpanzee. There was no abstract thought; that was to come later with language. They knew no hope because they knew only the present. But they knew fear and pain. And the dominant male supplied these, in order to rule, in large measure.

One may imagine how the awesome power of the dominant male grew, and how each generation learned from anxious mothers to avoid his terrible wrath by total submission. Even today it is common to hear believers define religious belief as the 'fear of god'. Orthodox Jews name themselves haredi, a Hebrew term meaning one who fears god.

Gradually the dominant male took on otherworldly aspects. Perhaps, to quash rebellion, he vowed to return after death to punish ambitious pretenders who might otherwise plot to kill him. To his subjects "belief" was certain knowledge; "disbelief" incomprehensible, neither word occurring in their vocabulary. For here he was, this powerful being, standing before them every day, palpable and real, visible, audible, touchable, fearful. God was not a supernatural hidden power, but actually walked among them everyday, in the flesh.

The lengthy rule of generations of the dominant male would explain the universality of religion in the present day. It would explain also the power of religion. It has somehow been affixed to the neural interconnections of our brains over such a long period that it has come to be an integral part of what it means to be human.

Government and religion evolved together as mechanisms of societal control. What is important is that religion arose from natural, everyday pressures, not from some pre-Paleolithic philosopher ruminating on the nature of life. Nor from an extra-dimensional essence that took an interest in our affairs.

Ideas of god, heaven and hell are deeply embedded in the human psyche. Ninety percent of the human race is said to believe in god and an afterlife. If the goal of these discussions is to add to our knowledge of life and the universe, we must ask ourselves if there is a naturalistic explanation of how, and when, religion came to humankind. Please consider the following:

The earliest religions of historical record are those of ancient Greece and Egypt 4000 – 5000 years ago. Prior to that we know only the religious cave-art of France and the seemingly pious burial customs of Neanderthal Man, both about 40,000 years ago. That's as far back as the fossil record on religion will take us. But the cave art and the burial customs were highly sophisticated for their time, so mankind's search for religion's origins must go far back before then. How can we possibly go back to earlier times? Anthropology and evolutionary psychology coupled with our knowledge of how modern humans behave individually and in groups may make it possible.

(Many devout readers have rejected the science of evolution and believe the universe was created only 6,000 years ago. To those who are still with me, I urge you, if you want your religion to have any future relevance, to incorporate modern knowledge into your liturgies).

The evolutionary lineage of the great apes and that of humanoids separated from a common ancestor about 7 million years ago. The modern chimpanzee and humans, close relatives, exhibit group behavior, therefore, so must our common ancestor have done. Group formation demands leadership and the dominant male, with his superior strength, arose to fill this role. The next important date is about 1.5 millions years ago when the human brain began to expand, tripling in size by 100,000 years ago, when our sapient selves emerged. Language is said to have evolved 500,000 – 250,000 years ago.

Our pre-sapient ancestors, then, existed for about 5.5 millions of years with a relatively small brain and without language in groups ruled by dominant males; and then continued, with slowly expanding brain, but still without language, for hundreds of thousands of years more. It is probable that Homo's intellectual state during this period was lower than that of the modern chimpanzee. There was no abstract thought; that was to come later with language. They knew no hope because they knew only the present. But they knew fear and pain. And the dominant male supplied these, in order to rule, in large measure.

One may imagine how the awesome power of the dominant male grew, and how each generation learned from anxious mothers to avoid his terrible wrath by total submission. Even today it is common to hear believers define religious belief as the 'fear of god'. Orthodox Jews name themselves haredi, a Hebrew term meaning one who fears god.

Gradually the dominant male took on otherworldly aspects. Perhaps, to quash rebellion, he vowed to return after death to punish ambitious pretenders who might otherwise plot to kill him. To his subjects "belief" was certain knowledge; "disbelief" incomprehensible, neither word occurring in their vocabulary. For here he was, this powerful being, standing before them every day, palpable and real, visible, audible, touchable, fearful. God was not a supernatural hidden power, but actually walked among them everyday, in the flesh.

The lengthy rule of generations of the dominant male would explain the universality of religion in the present day. It would explain also the power of religion. It has somehow been affixed to the neural interconnections of our brains over such a long period that it has come to be an integral part of what it means to be human.

Government and religion evolved together as mechanisms of societal control. What is important is that religion arose from natural, everyday pressures, not from some pre-Paleolithic philosopher ruminating on the nature of life. Nor from an extra-dimensional essence that took an interest in our affairs.

I once heard someone say "religion is arrogance masquerading as humility". Truer words were never spoken. It is laughable to hear people ranting that everyone who doesn't believe exactly as they have chosen to believe, will burn in a lake of fire for eternity! Religion is simply a way to control people. People are much easier to control when they are afraid; Hence, the "lake of fire". You know those Nigerian scams where they swear that if you give them ten thousand dollars, they will send you several million dollars later? Religion is the same thing! You agree to support the church so that the pope and the cardinals and the televangelists can live in luxury here on earth, and they promise that you will get your reward after you are dead! Pretty safe promise considering that no one can come back to say that they were lied to! I once read a book where the main character was talking to Satan and quoted a line of scripture to prove a point he was making. Satan just laughed out loud and said "Do you really believe that God would write a book so filled with hypocrisy and violence? God is love! I wrote the bible as a way to turn people against each other and away from God!" Interesting thought!

I "must pay (and pay and pay)"? I thought the toll was thirty pieces of silver...

I might help me believe Cal if he at least knew his scripture.

What is it with the Christian Fundies like Mr. Thomas who keep trying to equate Adam and Eve and "Going to Hell"?

Okay, Cal, repeat after me: Genesis is Old Testament. Jews believe in the Old Testament just like you do. Yet, the jews do not have a concept of Hell. There is no equation to be made there. The story pre-dates the concept of Hell being taught to anyone.

Leviticus is also Old Testament just like you do too. When the Jews scream as loud as you do about homosexuality, I might believe you on that count too.

Want to talk Jesus and the New Testament?

Jesus said the 10 Commandments boil down to 2 things: Love God and to love your neighbor as you love yourself. If I thought you did that, I might even then believe you on the other stuff.

Translation:

Cal Thomas, you and your like are committing sins in the name of doing God's work. If there is a Hell, I believe that you may just have a special place in it.

And for your benefit, I pray to God I'm wrong.

Michael Duffy:

Just curious, how do you know what Jesus said? Did he have a secretary following him around recording his sermons, conversations, etc.?

All of this was written between several decades and hundreds of years after his death. In texts that have been with out a doubt altered and mis-translated countless times. Translating the Bible to English alone brought about numerous slight changes and shadings to the text. This is not my opinion, it's verifible history.

Heck even today with video and audio proof of conversations and sermons/speeches there is still debate as to what exactly someone said and what they meant. Contradictions abound.....and I am not just talking about the Bush administration.

Seriously, how do we know what Jesus said?

Joel Cohen -- I think this question, however ridiculous, is a good thing. Lets people see just how wacky it is.

Heaven and Hell are things everyone knows about, but rarely talk about.

Here's our chance.

RICH writes:
Cal says that "(God)cannot abide the unholy."

My bad, but I thought the words "God" and "cannot" were incompatible. Oh well."

Hah! :)

Of course, god couldn't defeat those chariots of iron in the OT. As long as you die in a chariot of iron, god can't send you to hell!

Cal says that "(God)cannot abide the unholy."

My bad, but I thought the words "God" and "cannot" were incompatible. Oh well.

No heaven, no hell. Infinite punishment or reward for finite behavior just makes no sense to me.

When I die, my unembalmed body will be buried and will be consumed by worms, inscts, microflora, and other scavenging organisms, eventually becoming part of the soil, which will in turn provide nourishment for plants, which will provide nourishment for animals (including people), and some of those animals will provide nourishment for other animals (including people). In this way, I am asured of always being a part of the web of life.

As for the non-corporeal component of my existence, I can't say for sure what happens to it, but I see one of two possibilities. Either it will find its way into another body, or it will simply dissipate as energy. But I don't see either option as a punishment/reward dichotomy - just another state of being, a phase shift.

Since I don't believe in an eternal punishment/reward system, the only thing I know for sure is that I have right here, right now to do my utmost to be a decent person. I am only assured of one chance to get it right, so I try to live every day as if it were my last chance to do something to positively impact the world around me. I believe that every time a person does something to help another person, that positive vibration spreads like ripples on the surface of a pond. Of course, the same holds true every time a person does something to harm another person. My job is to make positive ripples every chance I get.

RICKO writes:
If most of the people here are right, I guess we'll all be OK. If Mr. Thomas is right a lot of people are in big trouble. One thing is for sure, we all are going to DIE and then we'll know for sure."

Your belief prejudice is showing. Your response assumes that there is an afterlife, and that after we die, even the non-believers will "know." Conveniently, that "know" corresponds to your belief.

Of course, the more-likely scenario is that from the moment we die (as in brain dead) we "know" nothing more. Our knowing is exclusive to our corporeal life on Earth. When we're dead, we're dead.

Yep, Ricko, it's true: at your death, you'll cease to know anything. You won't even have a chance to contemplate how much time and how many resources you wasted in your hope for an afterlife.

Maybe that's the beauty of it all.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one.

The wages of sin is death.

But God has demonstrated His own love for us in this: That while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

The gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

If you will confess with your mouth "Jesus is Lord!" and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

For whosoever calls upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.

meuphys:
sartre said it best. "hell is... other people!"

No Exit - great play.

Norrie,
Got an extra carrot on you?

To Maurie Beck,

You are free to live out your life. Don't listen to me or bother to respond to these posts. I'm not bothered by the fact you disagree with me.

The nature of who I believe Jesus Christ to be compells me to speak of what I know to be true. To not speak would be to deny what I believe is truth.

Here is the nutshell of what I believe written by the Paul the apostle:

"Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that He appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep; then He appeared to James, then to all the apostles; and last of all, as to one untimely born, He appeared to me also. For I am the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I labored even more than all of them, yet not I, but the grace of God with me. Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed. Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain. Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied."

I'm sure you would be glad that Paul agreed with you. Followers of Christ should be most pitied if He did not rise from the dead. Paul wrote this as a man who once persecuted and killed Christians. He realized that if Jesus did not rise from the dead it would invalidate all Christians believe about Him. He was convinced of Christ's resurrection based on the eyewitness testimony at the time. He encouraged people to go ask the witnesses themselves. He appealed to their intellect because he knew that if it was shown that Jesus did not rise from the dead, he would have wasted his life. It is interesting to me that if Paul was making all this up that he would encourage people to go talk to witnesses and that he would continue to propigate a lie when he admitted that he should be pitied if it was not true.

Jesus is the central figure of all humanity. The Old Testament was written to point to Christ and the New Testament gives witness to what He did. If He was who He said and He did what He did than Jesus should be followed 100% and if He was lying and this was made up than He is not worth following at all.

Following Jesus and the Word of God means accepting God for all of who He is and that is a being that does not tolerate anything less than His holiness. The Word of God clearly states that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and the wages of sin is death. Every single human being that has ever lived deserves death and seperation from God. But God demonstrated His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us. Acceptance of Christ's sacrifice is life but the rejection of it is death. I don't rejoice in that fact but it compells me to preach Christ crucified.

If you have hatred for these words, I believe it is hatred to Christ. By the way you missed the point of what Peter said in II Peter 3. It was a warning to seek the truth while there is time as God is patient and wants you and everyone to repent (aka: change your mind concerning your sinfulness and accept the truth of Jesus). I don't rejoice in the killing or suffering of anyone. In fact my life's occupation as a FF/Medic is lived to help people. I would gladly lay my life down for you even if you don't agree with my beliefs.

If most of the people here are right, I guess we'll all be OK. If Mr. Thomas is right a lot of people are in big trouble. One thing is for sure, we all are going to DIE and then we'll know for sure.

If most of the people here are right, I guess we'll all be OK. If Mr. Thomas is right a lot of people are in big trouble. One thing is for sure, we all are going to DIE and then we'll know for sure.

If most of the people here are right, I guess we'll all be OK. If Mr. Thomas is right a lot of people are in big trouble. One thing is for sure, we all are going to DIE and then we'll know for sure.

"When Mr. Thomas writes on matters of faith, it has the same ring as the tone one hears when striking pure crystal."

Yes his words have a ring. And they evoke powerful emotions.

They are also cruel, inhumane, twisted, and sick.

This is why we have a secular society -- to keep such things away from the realm of public discourse. Shame on the Washington Post for hosting such conversations, heading the outpouring of superstition with two photographs of stereotyped TV anchor persons and their impossible, bleached-white teeth.....

Yes, this man is entitled to his beliefs. But they do not belong in the area of responsible journalism and public opinion. Let believers in such things exchange their thoughts and fears among each other, in another arena than the Washington Post. Please! Maintain standards of reasoned discourse! Remove this shameful and counterproductive "feature" from the WP website.

Who can say? No one comes back from the dead to tell us do they?

I believe Heaven and Hell are relative states. They are not permanent. In Earth we experience both daily. We could look at them as periods of levity or density in our lives. In one day we might go through any number of these states.

The day starts out, we might feel we are in heaven and when it ends we might feel we are in hell.

So does this mean when we die, we end up in some permanent fixed realm, dependent upon what?

Perhaps it boils down to that last moment, or how we experience it, or who prays for us during the afterdeath state.

Heaven and Hell might be a destination, if so, neither are permanent. Buddhists and Hindus also believe there might be a rebirth as an animal, a human, or some other lifeform. This is part of our soul's round as it takes it's long road to perfection.

No one comes back from the dead to tell us.

Rather than play mind games or argue, that's not the point. What if there was something practical we could do now.

Whatever ultimate perfection is ... it is beyond Heaven and Hell and it is also beyond the petty notions of our intellect. Our destination and actions are dependent on our state of understanding and our wisdom.

When pro Wrestler, Chris Benoit, recently ended his life and that of his wife and child in such a tragic fashion, perhaps he fixed himself in hell, for a time at least. Perhaps through prayer there is some intervention or amelioration possible.

Rather than judge him, one realizes that now it's all to late for that. We see that suffering was created by this action. And that suffering will be the result.

Through wisdom and understanding we try to avoid such unskillful acts, and to redeem ourselves via acts of kindness. The actions of today create the seeds for the harvest of tomorrow. By understanding the nature of cause and effect, we have a direct effect on the nature of suffering and also joy in our planet, in our own lives and our families. Thus we create heaven or hell on a daily basis.

Mike Lewyn - Your scripture (the so-called New Testament) talks about Heaven and Hell. My scripture (the Torah, plus the rest of the Hebrew Bible, or what Christians call the Old Testament) is much more ambiguous. The Torah barely speaks of the afterlife at all.

This sounds like you are implying the Jews are more "enlightened" than those delusional Christians.

I suggest you reread the Hebrew Bible about the lineage of Abraham, which was apparently afflicted with a profound mental illness, characterized by some rather amusing (in a nightmare sort of way) visual and auditory hallucinations. Not only was the lineage schizo, but their god was too. Abraham almost barbecued his son because god told him to in order to test his love for god. Moses is plagued by a god who loves him and then tries to kill him, gives him visions of burning bushes, laws, a bad sense of direction, and finally discourses on what to do to non-believers (e.g. Deuteronomy).

The only self-respecting Jews I know are atheists. Perhaps you ought to try it. Then you can bash Christians all you want without being a hypocrite.

Bill Mosby - So maybe it would be prudent to believe in them (heaven and hell), just in case.

Ahh, Pascal's Wager rears his ugly head. The following is a response from Sam Harris.

The Empty Wager
by Sam Harris, On Faith
Reposted from:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/04/the_cost_of_betting_on_faith.html

"The coverage of my recent debate in the pages of Newsweek began and ended with Jon Meacham and Rick Warren each making respectful reference to Pascal's wager. As many reader's will remember, Pascal suggested that religious believers are simply taking the wiser of two bets: if a believer is wrong about God, there is not much harm to him or to anyone else, and if he is right, he wins eternal happiness; if an atheist is wrong, however, he is destined for hell. Put this way, atheism seems the very picture of reckless stupidity.

But there are many questionable assumptions built into this famous wager. One is the notion that people do not pay a terrible price for religious faith. It seems worth remembering in this context just what sort of costs, great and small, we are incurring on account of religion. With destructive technology now spreading throughout the world with 21st century efficiency, what is the social cost of millions of Muslims believing in the metaphysics of martyrdom? Who would like to put a price on the heartfelt religious differences that the Sunni and the Shia are now expressing in Iraq (with car bombs and power tools)? What is the net effect of so many Jewish settlers believing that the Creator of the universe promised them a patch of desert on the Mediterranean? What have been the psychological costs imposed by Christianity's anxiety about sex these last seventy generations? The current costs of religion are incalculable. And they are excruciating.

While Pascal deserves his reputation as a brilliant mathematician, his wager was never more than a cute (and false) analogy. Like many cute ideas in philosophy, it is easily remembered and often repeated, and this has lent it an undeserved air of profundity. If the wager were valid, it could be used to justify any belief system (no matter how ludicrous) as a "good bet." Muslims could use it to support the claim that Jesus was not divine (the Koran states that anyone who believes in the divinity of Jesus will wind up in hell); Buddhists could use it to support the doctrine of karma and rebirth; and the editors of TIME could use it to persuade the world that anyone who reads Newsweek is destined for a fiery damnation.

But the greatest problem with the wager—and it is a problem that infects religious thinking generally—is its suggestion that a rational person can knowingly will himself to believe a proposition for which he has no evidence. A person can profess any creed he likes, of course, but to really believe something, he must also believe that the belief under consideration is true. To believe that there is a God, for instance, is to believe that you are not just fooling yourself; it is to believe that you stand in some relation to God's existence such that, if He didn't exist, you wouldn't believe in him. How does Pascal's wager fit into this scheme? It doesn't.

Beliefs are not like clothing: comfort, utility, and attractiveness cannot be one's conscious criteria for acquiring them. It is true that people often believe things for bad reasons—self-deception, wishful thinking, and a wide variety of other cognitive biases really do cloud our thinking—but bad reasons only tend to work when they are unrecognized. Pascal's wager suggests that a rational person can knowingly believe a proposition purely out of concern for his future gratification. I suspect no one ever acquires his religious beliefs in this way (Pascal certainly didn't). But even if some people do, who could be so foolish as to think that such beliefs are likely to be true?"

Sam might add to the last sentence ... "or that they would cost nothing." Even you Bill, acknowledge such implicit costs when you say ".. as long as weapons and instruments of torture are kept out of it!"

There seems to be not the slightest physical evidence of a place called Hell. According to scientists, there is nothing they can say about it. It would appear to be something that is not a part of the physical universe and so its existence can never be proved or disproved. It is something supernatural, beyond nature, beyond detection, beyond reason and beyond perception. Hell's moderate defenders say that it's a human mental state of separation from the Godhead and from transcendent consciousness that is accessible in this life. The hardshell fundamentalists hold that Hell is an actual place where sinners go to roast and bake for all eternity. That's probably just another way of saying it is a made-up fairy tale, invented by Middle Eastern shepherds and storytellers long ago to scare fellow desert dwellers into better behavior and more orderly conformance to the rudimentary societal norms of the times, a means to coerce the gullible into obedience to the priesthood and the tribal chieftains of the day. That the Washington Post devotes an entire blog to what the literate minority of persons today consider utter mumbo jumbo is an unfortunate sign of the retrograde, superstitious era in which we perforce abide.

Kenneth - Why does the Washington Post give a voice to bible-literalist lunatics such as Cal Thomas?

Now Kenneth, free speech is free speech, and it's good thing too; otherwise Cal wouldn't be able to make such a fool out of himself!

Cal is entitled to his beliefs. Let us all check rationality at the door and follow the voices of our heart! Persecute none who would blow themselves up or others for the "truth". But Cal has that Sunday haze. He sees joy in the suspension of reality and like any martyr will not be satified unless we join him.
Logically, if we are in God's image, exercise free will. Individually you can believe whatever but socially the will of God is what we collectively decide and act upon. If you want heaven then make it so. If you want to act out your three year old tantrums and frustrations on not being the center of the universe then grab a holy bully stick and thrash reality for all its worth. What Cal doesn't know or admit is that if everyone accepted Jesus, 99% of us still would face the prospect of HELL because holy is an ever rising bar. At least this is what I say to my attentive dogs.

PATRICK writes:
"When you smug arrogant people are gasping your last and death is coming,you won't be crying out for a government program, or your boss or your friends. It will be just you and God and that terrible realization that you had your chance and you were wrong. Fortunately, God who loves you will STILL give you a chance to avoid the eternal separation from him. Your shameful words will come back to haunt you."

Absolute bunk, Patrick.

What's really disheartening about people of your belief system is the absolute GLEE you express in your looking forward to the comeuppance that you imagine will be visited upon those who don't believe as you do. Such egocentric, self-righteous delusions put you in the same category as Aquinas, who believed that one of the JOYS of heavenly life was to look down and watch the suffering and torment of those consigned to hell.

I'd call your beliefs medieval, but that would be giving them undue credit.

A Fool - But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

So Michael, I have a question about the end of the world that A Fool describes so eloquently ... NOT!

If news reports were suddenly broadcast describing a mushroom cloud rising over Jerusalem, how would you feel? Would you be horrified, wondering how human beings could be so stupid? Or would you be happy and take this as the sign you have been waiting for, that the final battle is at hand, Christ’s return with his flaming sword to defeat the forces of Evil has begun, and the two billion Christians on this planet would soon be ascending to heaven in Rapture?

Think carefully how you would respond to this question. Remember, there are over 700,000 people in Jerusalem. A bomb the size of Hiroshima would immediately kill ~100,000, and they would be the lucky ones. The survivors, exposed to ionizing radiation would not be so fortunate. They would suffer a truly agonizing death with ulcers inside and outside their body, the sloughing of their skin, anemia, and multiple organ failure over days or weeks, and higher cancer rates over the longer term in both themselves and their children.

Such an event might be the result of stupid, deluded people doing monstrous things, or it could signal that the End Times are at hand, much like Mohamed Atta and his fellow hijackers believed as they flew their plane into the North Tower of the World Trade Center, on their way to seventy-two virgins in a martyrs’ paradise.

What would be your initial response? Horrified, …………. or Happy? If it was just delusional fanatics, we all would quickly condemn them. However, let’s say it really was the beginning of End Times. Then how would you feel? Remember, the suffering in Jerusalem would still occur, the sloughing of the skin and the terrible agony. And remember too that all non Christians (four billion people) would go to hell, to suffer worse than those suffering radiation poisoning in Jerusalem, and the suffering would go on for eternity. They would even include people you know and care for, whom you might even love. They might be people who led exemplary lives and gave back far more to society than they took. But they would die and go to hell because they were not Christians, while some person on death row who committed unbelievably grisly crimes, but converted to Christianity and accepted Jesus into his heart, would, after some time in purgatory, go to heaven.

What kind of God would do such a thing? A god of mercy? Of love? If a person did such a thing (four billion innocent people), he would make Hitler look like a choir boy. But this is God, and according to the good book, this is part of his plan. My initial reaction would be, “With a god like that, who needs the devil?”

Frankly, I wish that all the Christian Fundamentalists (along with all other fundamentalists) would just go to heaven and leave the world to the rest of us sinners (and any other Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Jains, Buddhists, pagans, shamanists, etc. who love life and want to stick around). Let us live out our lives as part of the thin film of life covering a blue-green sphere, spinning on its axis, orbiting an average star in a solar system on one of the arms of an average galaxy, in an ever-expanding universe. Just let us live without ideology, enjoying strawberries and sex, living in wonder at the amazing diversity of life, wondering at our place in this universe that is bigger than we can ever imagine, occasionally asking ……………… Is Anyone Out There?

If the bible is God's word. And if God is onmipotent, then how is it that in the Book of Job, God is so easily swayed by the angels/host to totally destroy all that Job has? Shouldn't know in that case all the Job carries in his heart? Is it necessary to tear him down? Or is it a literary device used by the writer to pass on or teach a lesson?

I believe in a creator. I believe that Jesus Christ walked the earth. I believe that what he stood for was good. I believe that the basic tenets of Christianity -- charity, forgiveness, redemption, love etc are things that we should all try to live by. I believe there is great wisdom in the bible. Just like there is great wisdom is Shakepeare, or Tolstoy, or Sophocles. But all things have their context. Even the bible.

But I say, even if there is a God, even if Jesus is the son of God, even if there is a heaven and a hell, it doesn't matter in the here and now. Whether you believe or not doesn't matter to anyone other than you. Who cares about the next life? I care about this one. Focusing on heaven or hell is just way to keep us from dealing with what's right in front of us. God or Jesus isn't going to help us now. God or Jesus isn't going to end poverty, feed the poor, educate our children, stop global warming, or end violence and armed conflict. And getting everyone to believe in God or Jesus or Heaven and Hell isn't going to do it either. Faith is important, yes. Having Faith can help you. But God and Jesus are not responsible for the problems we face. They are not responible for wars and famines.

And if we are to believe the bible, God put us here as stewards of this earth and we are doing a pretty crappy job. But God, Jesus, Allah, none of them are going to bail us out. If there is an apocalypse, it will not be God's doing. It will be our own. It is high time that the people of this earth started to grow up assume some responsibility and get our heads out of the clouds and out of the sand.

sartre said it best. "hell is... other people!"

When you smug arrogant people are gasping your last and death is coming,you won't be crying out for a government program, or your boss or your friends. It will be just you and God and that terrible realization that you had your chance and you were wrong. Fortunately, God who loves you will STILL give you a chance to avoid the eternal separation from him. Your shameful words will come back to haunt you.

The Good Book warns us of false prophets who will come among us and sow errant teachings and designs that are evil. These false prophets will use serpentine guile, putting on a holy face that masks the means and ends of Satan. Certainly, people of true faith will recognize such a false prophet in the glibness and artifice of Mr. Cal, who artfully mongers the fear of an imaginary Hell to frighten gullible souls into his own twisted orbit, asking them to subscribe to his version of what he claims is true. Has it ever been slicksters like Mr. Cal who have urged the faithful to support George W. Bush's pointless and unneeded invasion of Iraq, the same Bush who told Bob Woodward, "I believe I am the messenger of God's will", the Bush who prayed and prayed for the advice of his Higher Father then opened Pandora's Box to the furies of a half million Iraqi deaths, tens of thousands of American casualties, millions of desperate refugees, the smoking, poisoned ruin of an entire nation, a domestic GOP project of totalitarian rule, all built on an edifice of lies, deception, hypocrisy, shock, awe and fear? Was this Jesus's aim when he said "Love thy neighbor as thyself"? "Turn the other cheek"? What about John 4:16: "God is love, and whosoever lives in love, lives in God and God in him." Is that what the Iraq "war" has been about for the likes of hardshell Republican preachers and consiglieri like Mr. Cal? Surely, we have to look at the Book of Matthew 25 and ponder Jesus's warning against the sinfulness of the hypocrites, who are like whited sepulchers pure on the outside but foul within. Are these not the pious-appearing but guilefully tools of Satan who lead us into unneeded, unjust, immoral wars and and rumors of wars, who thereby give us false counsel, not the path toward the Kingdom of Heaven? Verily, the ilk of Mr. Cal we should recognize for what they are. We must surely reject them from our midst as abominations most foul. If there is a Hell, it will be in that place that a righteous, holy God, as in the Old Testament, merciful yet also stern, demanding, willful and with a temper most foul, will barbecue, boil and fry the false prophets, hypocrites and those who bear false witnesses, the messengers of Satan, for all eternity.

Cal Thomas said "Like so many other matters involving faith, believing in Heaven and hell depends on whether one believes in what God has said about these places."

The truth, of course, is that neither Cal Thomas nor anyone else KNOWS what God has said. Rather, he knows (maybe) what the Bible says and ASSUMES that the Bible is the word of God. He may be right, but he doesn't know (and I certainly think the Bible is not).

I'm a pretty old guy, but I continue to be amazed and disappointed by the arrogance and closed thinking of Cal and other fundamentalists.

Daniel, I would add my thanks to that of Tonio for your excellent post.

Do you suppose Cal ever reads any of the responses to his posts.

Our panelist wrote: "Scripture repeatedly teaches the existence of a literal Heaven and a literal hell. Whether you believe depends on whether you think God is telling the truth and His Word is reliable."

Whether I believe in a literal heaven or hell has nothing to do with whether I think the god of the bible is a liar. It has everything to do with whether or not I believe the god of the bible actually exists. I don't. What this character does or doesn't say or do in the bible has nothing to do with it.

It appears to me that the main point of contention about Cal's response is that the idea of a cut-and-dried heaven/hell distinction is too repugnant to be allowed. The problem is that I've yet to hear from the rest of the field of a case in which someone would go to hell. Are we so allergic to judgment in contemporary society that the only folks deserving of damnation are the ones we can all agree on? Is hell populated solely (soully?) by Hitler, Stalin, Rasputin and the rest of the oft-mentioned baddies?

Let's take it from the top, starting with the belief in a dichotomus afterlife... seems if that's the case, you'll need something to determine where folks are headed. The court of public opinion, which (let's be honest) is hopelessly more capricious than even the most fickle God, doesn't look all that inviting. That said, the world's religions offer a much more definitive view on the subject, but obviously there's not much of a consensus view. So, you're stuck choosing one of them for your entrance requirements. Cal's done that, but he's been decried as some poor benighted cave-man who doesn't understand how to embrace relativism.

And that's just the problem: an unconditionally welcoming afterlife ceases to be interesting. If we accept that basically anyone can go to heaven, then this debate doesn't even need to exist, nor does religion for that matter, except in that it might set some kinda pushy guidelines, which might kinda sorta want to follow, you know, if it suits you...

I would draw people's attention to what Jesus promised. One of the things the Bible gives to us is promises. Take your time to reflect on what Jesus says in John 3:16-20. What is he promising for you and me? Take his word by faith.

16"For God so loved the world,[g] that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God. 19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God."

Now is Jesus God? He claims to be so. If you have a Bible, go to John 5:18.

What happens when we die? Jesus will judge the living and the dead. I shall refer to John 5:22. And the following, from John 5:25-28:

25"Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of Man. 28Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.

May His words bless you.

What it "cost god" to redeem us?

Surely you jest. This little fiction, like all the other fictions about god, costs nothing at all except that it costs untold millions of actual beings the time, energy, and misdirection required to believe in something that makes no sense whatever.

Indeed, the proposition that a god, if it really is a god, can suffer cost of any kind is an absurdity.

Inculcating--or allowing religious figures to inculcate--a fear of hell in their children is also the cruelest form of psychological control that parents can practice.

I say that as an adult who, as a young child, was threatened with a deep, hot, and eternal hell by my Roman Catholic mother and by the nuns teaching in the Catholic schools to which she insisted that I be sent. My mother's fear, in turn, was that my non-Catholic father was also destined for that hell, and I was told to pray for his conversion to Catholicism. (That never happened, of course; he was religiously indifferent, and never knew what hell I was being put through.)

I threw over religion--Catholicism and all the rest--when I reached adulthood, but that experience has left me with psychological scars that even as a man in my 60s I still bear.

I have returned to religious faith--not Catholicism, though--in recent years. Fear of hellish punishment and hope of heavenly bliss is not part of that, however. I would prefer to try to be at peace with God without either of these human inventions--heaven and hell--being part of the equations. In my faith, I simply try to trust God's assurance that, in ways I as a human being cannot fathom, all will be well.

Parents and other authority-figures who try to maintain their authority by promising heaven and threatening hell are committing child abuse. They are also pushing their children into atheism.

Take note, Mr. Cal Thomas.

Your scripture (the so-called New Testament) talks about Heaven and Hell. My scripture (the Torah, plus the rest of the Hebrew Bible, or what Christians call the Old Testament) is much more ambiguous. The Torah barely speaks of the afterlife at all; the Prophets seem to contemplate some sort of afterlife, but are pretty ambiguous on the details (with the possible exception of Daniel, which is, to put it charitably, open to interpretation).

Your scripture (the so-called New Testament) talks about Heaven and Hell. My scripture (the Torah, plus the rest of the Hebrew Bible, or what Christians call the Old Testament) is much more ambiguous. The Torah barely speaks of the afterlife at all; the Prophets seem to contemplate some sort of afterlife, but are pretty ambiguous on the details (with the possible exception of Daniel, which is, to put it charitably, open to interpretation).

Your scripture (the so-called New Testament) talks about Heaven and Hell. My scripture (the Torah, plus the rest of the Hebrew Bible, or what Christians call the Old Testament) is much more ambiguous. The Torah barely speaks of the afterlife at all; the Prophets seem to contemplate some sort of afterlife, but are pretty ambiguous on the details (with the possible exception of Daniel, which is, to put it charitably, open to interpretation).

It is an interesting question to ask how heaven can exist, if there are people suffering in hell. That very question (among others) is explored in CS Lewis's excellent book, The Great Divorce. The thesis of that book is that God offers salvation to everyone, to the very end, if we only agree to accept it for what it really is. However, if we refuse that offer and insist on something else, then in the end, God loves us enough to say to us "thy will be done." If we reject the offer of heaven, then God will allow us to have what we want instead. And hell is what we choose, because whatever we can imagine ourselves is ultimately unsatisfying illusion. No one is sent to hell -- people choose to go there instead of heaven -- but neither are people allowed to hold heaven hostage to their own ideas of what it should be.

How can heaven exist if hell exists.
How could you ever be happy knowing (if you believe in hell and heaven) that other people were suffering?

Ifs not required Cal. Heaven is for sure, at least more life after this life. And for hell? It's the biggest lie ever told, the lie that blinds.

Just a reminder. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul for the Bible tells me all about the great benefits of hell. Without hell Moses would still be in Midian where he was identified as an EGYPTIAN tending someone else's sheep, tattered and torn and just a step ahead of the law.

Crapolla!! There goes another lie down the drain. Moses was identified as an Egyptian and I thought he was a Hebrew.

I found the reading good, informative in a way, but with one major error.

Jesus is God, God is not Jesus. If you wish to refer to God, refer to God. another example: I am American, American is not me. Surely, you too are American. God is the "ALL." We are a part of God, we are Gods children (Sons and daughters). Jesus is his Son too. Jesus is not all of God because to do so would delimit the powers of God. Also, to say that God can be tempted by the Devil is absurd. Jesus walked among us, distint from you and me, and therefore cannot be God.

Now on to Jesus and his affair with Mary Magdelena. Ha.Ha. Ha.

Good grief, do you suppose he actually believes that nonsense? I suppose I will have to burn in their Hell, becaues I could not stand to be with someone like Cal for 1 minute, much less eternity; God maybe that would be Hell!! I repent already!

I am still undecided about all this. However, as much as I would like to say things like "I'm living in a democracy and the idea of a kingdom, even of God, is a little bit distasteful", or "most modern Christians believe in a more benign God these days so Hell must be obsolete", or what have you, the original Biblical teachings say otherwise. So maybe it would be prudent to believe in them, just in case. Now, is that faith, or is that something God would see through as some sort of dishonesty? And if we have "grown" so much as to be unable honestly to have a childlike faith in our redemption, what do we do about it if we really do decide we would like to be saved? Very confusing. I suppose I will sooner or later just go ahead and believe. Seems to happen to folks as they get older, for some reason. Besides, living by Christian rules and concepts has been good for societies, as long as weapons and instruments of torture are kept out of it!

Will someone please tell Cal just how absurd he looks with that dyed hair and eyebrows? Chrissakes, Cal, you're not 25! Enough with the ego trip. You're not fooling anyone with that ridiculous dye job.

I have a question for those who don't believe in what Cal Thomas wrote...Where does your feeling of guilt come from? Don't worry if you don't believe what the Bible says.

Here is what I believe and it was written 2000 years ago by what some on this site would call a fool.

"Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water and by water, through which the world at that time was destroyed, being flooded with water. But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance."

God is calling out to you. Each day you wake up is a day to repent and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ. Just remember 10 out of 10 people do die...if you are reading this you are not to late.

Hell for me would be spending eternity with sanctimonious the a**holes like Dobson, Haggard, Robertson et. al. who exploit, rob, manipulate and scare others with fairy tales of a red, pitch-fork devil for money, greed and their political agendas.

"Tickets are on sale now?" How fitting that Mr. Thomas adopts the rhetoric of a classic sideshow huckster...

Omnipotent, omniscient, yet too fastidious to abide the unholy, this God is the very model of conditional love. Surrounded by sycophanic lesser spirits, enforcing his rule with an eternal concentration camp for those who offend him, the only charm this Creator has is non-existence.

"Pitchman for a bogus product" just about covers Thomas. What if God can also not abide smarminess or very badly dyed hair.

Omnipotent, omniscient, yet too fastidious to abide the unholy, this God is the very model of conditional love. Surrounded by sycophanic lesser spirits, enforcing his rule with an eternal concentration camp for those who offend him, the only charm this Creator has is non-existence.

"Pitchman for a bogus product" just about covers Thomas. What if God can also not abide smarminess or very badly dyed hair.

Three nuns die and arrive at heaven's gate. To gain entry they each must answer correctly one question:

(First nun)
Question: Who was the first man?
Answer: That's easy, it was Adam!
So the gate swings open and she enters.

(Second nun)
Question: Who was the first woman?
Answer: That's easy too, it was Eve!
The gate swings open.

(Third nun)
Question: What were Eve's first words?
Answer: Wow, that's a hard one!
The gate swings open.

The idea of heaven exists in order to provide incentive and reinforcement for good and civil behavior; a reward for following the laws and teaching of religion or "God." The ideal of hell exists to scare people into being righteous. To scare people to comform and into "acceptable behavior" They are primitive tools from more prmitive times that were used to get people to "behave" or conform to certain social norms. The use of fear and intimidation, of course, being the most effective way to get others to do something or act. Not unlike holding a gun to someone's head.

There might be a hell. There might be a heaven. But it doesn't and shouldn't matter if there is. Because neither have anything to do with the here and now. Instead of teaching and talking about heaven and hell and what might be, we should be teaching and talking about the here and now. We should be teaching and talking about responsibility, to ourselves and to each other, and human dignity and respect for life and doing what we can to make this life as close to heaven as possible. We are not helpless little children. It is up to us, not God.

"Because God is holy, He cannot abide the unholy and that is why hell exists"

This is utterly illogical. If God cannot abide the unholy why allow it to exist anywhere? An all powerful god would just cause the unholy to cease to exist rather than pollute his creation.
Free will may exist among the living but it's made clear in your scriptures that this ceases to matter after death when you're assigned to hell or heaven with no change in your status ever. So why wouldnt god just abolish those evils souls into nothingness? For that matter why allow a lesser evil being to continue to exist or do you believe the devil is equal to god?
Face it, it's all poppycock.
A series of books and letters written hundreds to thousands of years ago is an interesting collection of the thought processes of our ancestors - not a map to how the cosmos runs.

God save us from ignorant people who actually believe they know what God says, and worse, believe they know who/what "God" is!

George W. Bush died and went to Heaven. At the Pearly Gates, he demanded entry and told Saint Peter he was the Ultimate Creator. God came out and thundered, "How dare you! Don't you know it was I who created humankind and all creation?" "Yes, God," said Bush. "And don't you know it was I who created the firmament and the stars and all the universe?" "Yes, God", said Bush. "But what came before all that?" God sputtered, "W-w-well, before that there was just Chaos." Said Bush, "And who do you think created the Chaos?"

First to address Cal's words: "Heaven where God, his saints (that’s those who know Jesus) and angels dwell in perfection, in holiness and for eternity"
That alone speaks of a very small contingent, as we ain't Angels and Saints are far and few between, according to Rome. His not capitalizing angels and saints denigrate both.
If these words are false why go further? In order to give him more credit than his words. So, pass the salt and enjoy your meal.

According to Thomas, there is a heaven and hell. That's just dandy. Now, can you answer a more important question--Will George W. Bush be going to hell?

Nearly all religious individuals suddenly become very uncertain about the fate of Bush when this question is posed to them. "Cannot be answered" or "We do not known His intentions" or "Judge not lest we be judged." Most of it is mush and nonsense.

It is bizzare that these individuals can devine a god along with heaven and hell. Clearly, they say, a Hitler or Stalin must be placed in hell. But how many deaths does G.W. have to be responsible for before he earns a one-way ticket going down?

Amen Cal! A thumbs up and a pat on the back.

I applaud your defence of the truth and of the faith. All of those attempting your castigation are simplying saying what was said in scripture long ago. That they will ask for smooth words and easy ways. That they will say that God is only love and his other attributes don't count. That the will create other religions and love those that teach them lies and would rather hold to such instead of what the Lord says of him self. The Holy Bible that they degrade warns them but they will have none of it saying all is relative. Don't give up and keep speaking the truth. If one is saved your work is not in vain. If none is saved then your work is not in vain as you are to reprove error. Carry on!

Terra, your story reminds of one my Grandfather used to like to tell about a man who arrives at the gates and is led on a guided tour by St. Peter. In different parts of heaven he finds people of different faiths, all practicing their way of worshiping the Creator and existing side by side in perfect harmony.

But at point his guide cautions him to stay behind the bushes and remain very quiet, lest he be noticed by the inhabitants of this part of heaven. He asks why, and is informed "Those are the Mennonites...they think they're the only one's here, and we don't want to disappoint them."

(Grandpa was a Mennonite preacher, and loved nothing more than a good joke, especially if it involved teaching a little humility to his congregation...)

"While his interpretation may appeal to many Christians, to others, it is extremely primitive, indicating the most backward of thinking, and a very bad and negative attitude towards man, and the world in which we dwell. His certain knowledge on the wishes, beliefs and desires of God towards man is especially off-putting, arrogant, and ignorant."

Daniel, thanks so much for saying that. It's too bad UPI or whoever syndicates Thomas' column doesn't provide a outlet for interpretation of Christianity such as yours.

As a Pagan the idea of some folks being saved and some lost is a forign concept. Lost from what, saved for what? Green stamps or plaid? To us God is the universe and more, you cannot turn your back on what is God, and God can never turn Her/His/Their back on you. You can lose your own way, but that has nothing to do with the Creator/s.

To many Wiccans our Heaven is not a place where only the good go...it is where all go. It is a place where we can see what we have learned in the past life, what we need to learn and best how to do that. It is a place of learning, of integration and of renewal.

Do I need to know what it is like to be poor, do I need more compassion? then I will be reborn in the position to learn what it is like to be that person...maybe a poor black woman. Maybe I need to understand that all love is worthy, so I will be born a gay man....maybe I need to know, for the good of my spirit, what being handicapped or mentally limited is like...I will be that person.

Each birth brings knowledge and enlightenment. The mistakes I make are out of ignorance not out of evil. Do people make evil decisions? yes...but are we born evil? Should a loveing creator send a loved creation to a place of eternal suffering? That is not the God I honor. Mine is one of love and infinite chances.

There is no place of torment, except in our own minds...no fires of hell, only a Goddess by that name. Holy, Holy Hel. As PaganPlace will say.

We each have the DNA of the Creator...the spark of Divine, so how can we be lost in reality? It is that we are told we are lost if we fail to follow someone's idea of God...God is life, the life force, if you are alive you are with god. It is what we choose to do with that life force that matters.

There is a Pagan joke:
A Pagan finds himself at the golden gates after death,there standing is a man in a long robe. The new arrival says to the robed man, "where am I and are you St. Peter?" The robed man says..."well you are at the gates to what some call heaven and yes, some do call me St. Peter. So come on in." The newly deceased says," but I am Pagan, I do not go to your heaven." The guardian at the gate says," don't worry, come on in."

So the arrival walks through the gate and sees green and rolling hills, children playing and cats and dogs running, chasing butterflies,deer walking past and grazing quietly, people walking hand in hand, or gathered in groups at the feet of who seemed to be the greatest teachers and philosophers born. The arrival looked amazed at the robed man and said...wow so we were right! Just then a scream was heard and off in the distence a puff of smoke and a crash... the arrival was shaken and asked, "what was that?" The guardian turned and before he could say anything a man ran up to him and shouting said..."But I am Christian and I fornicated before marriage..I am a sinner....I do not belong here, this is heaven...!" The Guardian pulled out a cell phone and said in it...ok we have another here...open Her up..." The Guardian of the Gate grabs hold of the Pagan and pulls him backward as the ground opens and screams can be heard. The Christian looks releived as he falls into the firey inferno...

The Pagan is astounded.."what was that?" "Well says the Guardian....they hate to not suffer. They live to die and suffer...so we only do what they have it in their minds they deserve. One day they will learn to live with joy, and find that respect and honoring all created is the ticket to this heaven." "Ok now the Drum Circle in over that next hill, and the Bard Circle is over to the right...and don't forget the Elder's meeting is at 7. Welcome to Summerland."

There are better ways to live then to live to die and suffer. Heaven is what you make it, and hell is how you live.

terra

Dear Cal: Prove it.

Cal provides confirmation to Christopher Hitchens' assertion that the NT is, in fact, more mind-numbing and inhuman than the OT. For all it's gore, racism and misogyny, the OT never proposed the idea of eternal hell and torture for the non-believers in the Jewish god. Yes, that loving god hated all non-Jews, and he demanded that his chosen people engage in genocidal rampages against you, but when you were dead, you were dead. Period.

It took the NT's loving Jesus, meek and mild, to propose the idea of an eternal hell of fire, torture and suffering for those who didn't hate their families enough to abandon them and follow the gentle sadist.

Message to non-believers: you're better off under the OT law than you are under Jesus' message of "love."

There is no democracy in heaven. All religions are based on the model of kingdoms where there are the powerful and the rabble. Cal - who lives in a free democratic country - looks forward to an eternity of servitude in just such a kingdom. The fact that he and other Xians yearn for an eternity as an indentured servant of a vile and jealous god makes one wonder why they don't seek heaven on Earth by relocating to North Korea, which - as Hitchens also points out - seems to be the closest country on the planet that matches the Biblical heaven in it's demand for eternal worship of a god incarnate.

BTW - does anyone else find it risible that Cal believes that mythical figures like Adam & Eve and Lucifer actually existed?

Dear Cal -

You seem to be very consistent in posting a column to each and every On Faith question, which is why - like CS - I was surprised that you didn't post a column addressing the last question asked about the Iraq War.

Why was that? You were such a gung-ho supporter of bush's murderous adventure. Here was a perfect opportunity to swim against the tide of your fellow On Faith columnists and to set them all straight, as you did back in April 2003 when you wrote:

"When the Berlin Wall fell and Eastern Europe escaped from the shackles of communism, I wrote that we must not forget the enablers, apologists and other "fellow travelers" who helped sustain communism's grip on a sizable portion of humanity for much of the 20th century. I suggested that a "cultural war crimes tribunal" be convened, at which people from academia, the media, government and the clergy who were wrong in their assessment of communism would be forced to confront their mistakes. While not wishing to deprive anyone of his or her right to be wrong, it wouldn't hurt for these people to be held accountable.
That advice was not taken - but today we are presented with another opportunity in the form of scores of false media prophets who predicted disaster should the U.S. military confront and seek to oust the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. The purpose of a cultural war crimes tribunal would be to remind the public of journalism's many mistakes, as well as the errors of certain politicians and retired generals, and allow it to properly judge their words the next time they feel the urge to prophesy...

All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an opportunity to recant and repent." - Cal Thomas, 4/15/03

I'm waiting, Cal.

Cal Thomas's interpretation of Christianity is only one among many. While his interpretation may appeal to many Christians, to others, it is extremly primitive, indicating the most backward of thinking, and a very bad and negative attitude towards man, and the world in which we dwell. His certain knowledge on the wishes, beliefs and desires of God towards man is especially off-putting, arrogant, and ignorant. This silly and even absurd characterizaiton of Christianity is wildly out of step with the traditional beliefs of millions of Christians. This characterization of Christianity is what gives Christianity and Christians a bad name.

Way to duck the Iraq War question last week, Cal!

P.S.

stop trying to sell your stupid bs religion by using a guilt trip of "tickets on sale now", "you can still choose your destination". Haha and next you will tell me i can recieve that gift to heaven if i pay you money so my sins will be fogiven...heaven is almost as real as neverland...and I mean almost

grow up peter pan

so you know the bible was written by primitive people a couple hundred years after jesus supposedly lived, right?

You are honestly going to tell me that you believe a bunch of people that took craps in the woods and used leaves to wipe themselves 1800 years ago, not to mention that they *knew* the span of the world extended from east asia to europe, these very people that todays standard 8th grade algebra would probably be a daunting challenge for, the words of these ancients storytellers are the grounds for your beliefs?

Religions are killing me. It's as if you told the rational part of your mind to take a hike.

Norrie, I'm gonna start eating more salads...>;-}

Cal's post illustrates one of the major problems with Christianity that finally drove me away from it. It's this horrible attitude towards humanity; that we are "unholy"; a form of "pollution". It's a sad, negative way of looking at the world.

Cal and his fellow believers will argue that the salvation message is one of hope and joy, but the underlying belief in the "unholy" nature of their fellow man is what inevitably colours their interactions with others. And while they have been "washed" and "cleansed" and "saved" the rest of us are still "unclean" or "lost"; still a form of pollution mucking up their version of perfection. They'll glibly give us the "we're all sinners" line, but it seems to me there is an unavoidable arrogance in the whole idea that some are deserving of eternal paradise just because they believe a particular story while everyone else is so vile and contemptible as to deserve eternal torment.

It's a denial of our common humanity, of the good that exists in all of us, whether we believe Cal's bedtime stories, or some other story.

Regards

A Hermit

When Mr. Thomas writes on matters of faith, it has the same ring as the tone one hears when striking pure crystal. Pity for those who are unable to wrap their heads around his words.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A couple made a deal that which ever died first, they would come back and inform the other of the after life. Her biggest fear was there was no heaven. After a long life the husband was the first to go and true to his word he made contact.
Mary ... Mary ....

Is that you Fred ?

Yes, I have come back like we agreed.

What is it like?

Well, I get up in the morning, I have sex, I have breakfast, I have sex, I bath in the sun, then I have sex-twice, I have lunch, then sex pretty all afternoon Supper-then sex till late at night, Sleep then start all over again.

Oh Fred you surely must be in heaven.

Hell no, I'm a rabbit in Texas.

SEE, IT PAYS TO BE A BUDDHIST!

Hello all On Faith readers! While you’re pondering Cal’s offer of a free, pre-paid one-way trip to Heaven, please also ponder this:

If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.