True Religion Works From Inside Out

Maybe 'the work' never stopped. ;)

Blessed be. :)

Images of Rocky Horror Picture show:

"Don't dream it, be it" going through my head. :)

I like that better. It takes the 'issue of scale' and makes it workable. really something to sink one's teeth into.

hopefully the work has already begun.

Blessed be. :)

'Making a difference.' Maybe that's a matter of standards that can get us into trouble. Or at least bad feeling.

Lady knows about *my* time in 'making a difference.'

Actually did, I have to say, but not in the sense of 'The World' 'That needs to be fixed.'

That kind of sense is about distracting us with ideas of jobs that are too big to do.

*Making* a difference can be a standard that keeps us from *being* a difference.

And a beautiful thing about the dream we dwell in is, maybe you can 'destroy,' but you can't 'un-create.'

So, *be* a difference. It'll be in the world. Nothing's forgotten. Who are we to say what 'takes,' or when, or how, or not?

Never mind issues of *scale.* :)

That's what I can say at this hour. :) It's been a long day. Blessed be. :)

Really beautiful post, Paganplace. :)

"...and known plenty that didn't seem to live in a 'victim mode' despite, in the case of a family that took me in when I was a runaway, their having escaped from Communist Russia and started over in life.)"

Actually, my great grandparents did just that also, emigrating over here from Poland and Russia. Jews are nothing if not resourceful. It's part of the whole 'having to stay alive' thing.

"In reconciling with my own family, (boy, did *that* take time) I think it's been very helpful to consider how the culture adapted *to* the Christian religion and related historical events, to find out a) Where the internal conflict is, and b) Where the common ground still remains."

This is a great idea. I'm just not sure how it could be applied in a situation where the family in question, at least one member is a very happy bigot (I just found out about that part) who has a tendency to tell relatives how to live their lives as 'they' want them to. I was told for many years that I should marry a friend of mine, the 'nice little Jewish boy'. Make more Jews. The pressure was diffused in a very funny way when he came out of the closet and started dating a sweet black guy. He and I laugh about it to this day. :) I'm still in the broom closet because of it, though. As I learn to walk between this world and the Otherworlds, I still hope to maintain the connection to my family by walking between theirs and the pagan worlds I've started to come home to.

"A little pride at being magical and maybe-never-quite-really-'converted' people, even as there's always that 'fear it's the Devil' thing which has led to so much misery over time."

That's why I'm so glad I was raised Jewish. We didn't have that problem. That's why the more I learn about Christianity I feel like I dodged a theological bullet of sorts. We still have all the guilt though. It's in the DNA.

"I've found that one thing that was really healing wasn't *convincing* anyone of anything, but rather *showing* that those of us who've gone 'Pagan Once Again' aren't as scared or scary as the idea of not-keeping-Catholic were made."

I'd love to really think that Jews would understand that, but there's a very real possibility that we could be seen as an even bigger threat to Jewish existance because it comes from those people like myself who can't do it anymore just because they say so. From the inside out, so to speak. I've often said that if someone ever fires up the ovens again, my being Jewish by birth won't make a difference. the Jews will probably be the ones to throw those like me in headfirst once they realize I'm a practicing pagan.

"In one sense, Jewishness and Judaism and Israeli-(esque-ness?) are more tightly intertwined in Jews-as-usually-portrayed, but on the other hand, something which it seems very many can cope with."

The only problem is that in light of the Holocaust, so many Jewish people, especially those who survived or are related to those who survived, cope by becoming far more secular than ever, because the god of the bible did nothing to save 6 million of his own 'chosen' people. I can't disavow that, but I took a step back and realized it's a HUMAN problem, not just limited to the Jews. They were targeted more than most, yes. But it could have been anybody. Pagans, gypsies, gays, etc were also killed.

A lot of Anti Semitism these days is reaction to the actions of the Israeli government. If Israel is going to continue to exist as a haven for Jewish people, the Jewish people must demand that their government take responsiblity for their actions. But if they do, they get labeled as self hating Jews. But that's the same as saying that we as Americans who stand up against the actions of our current disaster that calls itself an administration are unpatriotic. We all see how much has gotten done as a result of such thinking.

"Well, this is one of those places where I think modern Pagans can help heal some of the old wounds and ongoing strife in the traditions we come from.

Cause our Pagan ancestors aren't the only ones whose shoulders we stand on. We're the children of Christianity and Judaism, and, I hear rumors, Islam, too.

In some way, our mere existence says, "This stuff can be over."

You've just hit the nail on the head. That really is my deepest hope. To really be a part of the solution- what a possibility! In light of current events though, I really do despair sometimes of EVER making a real difference.

Well, Priver, I wasn't raised Jewish, myself, (and known plenty that didn't seem to live in a 'victim mode' despite, in the case of a family that took me in when I was a runaway, their having escaped from Communist Russia and started over in life.)

I've certainly had to ask the question, as a Pagan, 'What does it mean to be Irish,' (plenty of cause for 'victim mode' there, really, both in regards to the Church and 'Protestants,') I've had it a little easier that way, cause even as being Irish was really entwined with the Catholic religion, there's always been a certain romanticization of our Pagan and tribal roots alongside the sort of constant internal struggle about it that Christianity brought.

A little pride at being magical and maybe-never-quite-really-'converted' people, even as there's always that 'fear it's the Devil' thing which has led to so much misery over time.

In reconciling with my own family, (boy, did *that* take time) I think it's been very helpful to consider how the culture adapted *to* the Christian religion and related historical events, to find out a) Where the internal conflict is, and b) Where the common ground still remains.

I've found that a lot of the bad dynamics that seem to be endemic have deep roots in that internal conflict, as well as perhaps a sense that a particular religion is the only real defense against outside agressors, so it mustn't be questioned... Or even that that's the real story.

I've found that one thing that was really healing wasn't *convincing* anyone of anything, but rather *showing* that those of us who've gone 'Pagan Once Again' aren't as scared or scary as the idea of not-keeping-Catholic were made.

It seems the family's been afraid for generations: of life, death, and other people, that the only way to justify both what's been done *by* us and done *to* us seemed to be to embrace the abusive dynamics and the authority of the Church. By not being afraid, perhaps with irony, we seem to have allowed those who are still Catholic to actually be *happier* about it somehow.

Certainly, I think, we're less ashamed of *being* Irish, (The Christian narrative on this often tends to seem to be that we're essentially lousy people with only Christianity to justify what existence we're allowed.) ...some of us actually *being* free, in a way, and *proud* of our heritage, as a family and as a people, has allowed the others to see being Catholic *as* a religion and not just a big ball of shame and inadequacy too threatening to either question or enjoy.

In one sense, Jewishness and Judaism and Israeli-(esque-ness?) are more tightly intertwined in Jews-as-usually-portrayed, but on the other hand, something which it seems very many can cope with.

I think as people who *allow* ourselves to separate the politics-from-the-religion-from-the-ethnicity,

Well, this is one of those places where I think modern Pagans can help heal some of the old wounds and ongoing strife in the traditions we come from.

Cause our Pagan ancestors aren't the only ones whose shoulders we stand on. We're the children of Christianity and Judaism, and, I hear rumors, Islam, too.

In some way, our mere existence says, "This stuff can be over."

Including 'victim modes,' ...something we'd best watch out for while people are still scared of that idea.

I posted this on another thread but nobody responded. Let me try again here. Looks like there might be some Jewish voices here.

This was posted to Dr. Brooks Thistlethwaite's response to this week's question.

"She brings up an interesting question, which I don't have an answer for but I've thought a lot about, in recent days. I'd like to pose this to those here.

If Anti Semitism completely disappeared tomorrow, and the Jews were no longer stuck in perpetual victim mode, having to constantly defend themselves, what then would it mean to be Jewish in modern times?

I was raised Jewish, before anyone accuses me of anti-Semitism. I don't hate myself or my family. It was partly (but only partly) because I couldn't answer this question satisfactorily for myself that I started looking around, and ultimately found my faith elsewhere. I just wanted to ask some of the other Jewish born people here to get an idea of what the community might say.

Even Goddesses associated with reason, I might add. :) *lil salute.* :)

I always chuckle at the folks that want to enshrine the 10 Commandments everywhere. Do they realize that "Keep the Sabbath Day Holy" means that there would be no NASCAR, football, or other sporting events on Sundays if the 10 Commandments were "the law of the land". After all, those drivers, pit crew, concessions sellers, broadcasters, etc. are all *working* when they should be in Church! Plus, Wal-Mart would have to shut down on Sundays, like Chik-Fil-A does.

Besides, aren't you Christians forgetting that Jesus was asked that very same question about which Commandment was the greatest? He replied that we should love God and love each other, those were the only "commandments".

And Cal... any modern-day Goddess worshipper will tell you that we serve our Goddess out of love, not fear.

GFN: Good points. I wonder how many other Jews were raised to be in awe of god, but never to be afraid of god. To accept the wisdom of the laws, but I've never met a practicing Jew who felt he/she was appeasing god when they practiced the faith in it's orthodoxy.

You wrote:
"Are all these things (laws/rules)now considered to be quant rituals and tradition ?"

For many jews, yes. Many social/dietary laws are routinely ignored. The 10 commandments, not so much.....

Also, Could you explain " the ultimate sacrafice of the lamb " part of your reply ?

Enjoy the day !

GBK:

I'm not Mr. Thomas, but I would like to try to respond as someone who agrees 100% with how he responded. I am not Jewish, so maybe I need an explanation of Judaism (as perhaps Cal needs). My understanding is that the whole 10 commandments about as well as the law spoken through Moses were a set of rules and rituals that Jews are to follow to appease God (who in your Torah seems to be an angry God indeed (Genesis through Deuteronomy do not focus on God's gentle side?)). Do Jews no longer believe in or follow the Law? Are all these things now considered to be quaint rituals and tradition?

With regard to your last question, it's all how you define the word "religion." I do not believe that there is a God ordained logical formula for spiritual happiness (church/synagogue + good works + don't kill anyone = heaven). I believe Cal is saying that the development of these formulas or rituals or whatever constitutes religion is totally man-made. He believes as do I that the ability to fellowship with God is purely a gift of God through the ultimate sacrifice of the Lamb that humans are not capable of earning (sin nature and all that). Our job is simply to accept this gift.

Dear Mr. Thomas

I'm sorry, but you lost me with your " short answer " opening. I'm jewish and really don't recognize an angry god, or a god that we must appease. I've never heard a Rabbi, nor religious scholar present judaism in such a manner. What religions were you referring to as MOST.

Also, you feel that religions are " man made ". May I inquire : Are you an athiest ?

Sincerely

Cal Thomas looks like he drinks blood. He may have believed this tripe at one time, but not anymore. Cal-Is the Bible the literal word of God or not? Simple question.

If you're a true believer (which I seriously doubt) then the Bible is not open to interpretation and you must follow it's teachings completely. Good luck with that.

"Most religions are attempts to placate an angry Deity ..."

Really? Gee, Cal, and just how the frick would you know that? I mean, there are so many angry deities floating about, right? And of course, you know they are angry because people are trying to placate them, trite? We are in Iraq because Cal's God is mad at the Muslims for not believing in Cal's God. Yeah, Yeah, that's the ticket. And the Muslims want to eradicate Amerika because their God is mad at Amerika because of liberals and gays and bollywood and bikinis and myrna loy ... it's all starting to make sense ... i'm a believer, I couldn't leave her if I tried ... i never saw her face

Stick to bashing liberals, Cal. Yer stab at metaphysics is merely an attempt to placate an angry god.

Cal actually started out his column on a good note. He notes that religion is man made. We create these deities out of fear and try to placate them he says. That is mostly true, but it is not so much as fear as it is control. Man prays to gods to control the god's powers. To make crops grow by pleasing the god. To make it rain, make women fertile, make a war come out on our side. Gods have been used to make things happen, selfish things, for eons.

Cal then says: "But in Jesus Christ, we have something unique. We have God's effort to reach Man. It is unique, because God was and is the offended party. He is the One against all have sinned. And yet, as Paul writes, "While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." (Romans 5:8)"

He conveniently leaves out the promise of everlasting life if one believes in God. He leave out hell and eternal pain and damnation if one fails to believe in God. And many christians point to good things, earthly things, happening to people if they just believe in Christ. They say your life will be more fulfilled and better. So again, we have a religion promising very selfish things, the most selfish being eternal life in glory and peace and happiness with the added pain and punishment for not believing. So what are we to do? We are to believe out of selfishness and fear just like every other religion. We are to please God to make our lives better, to control our happiness before and after death and to use prayer to meet our selfish needs. No Cal, christianity IS just another religion. Your attempt to make it unique is typical of anyone who believes they just happen to have been raised in the one true religion.

In days of old two armies would pray to their respective gods to win the upcoming battle. When one side won, the other side would have to admit that their god was weaker and gave it up, accepting the new stronger god. Cal should not wonder why his religion is, by coincidence, the one and only true religion. What Cal should be wondering is what his ancestors believed and why they stopped believing and accepted christianity. I would imagine he has no idea when or to who this happened in his lineage. The reality is that most christians were converted through war and christianity was maintained by laws and intimidation. Hardly what Christ would have wanted.

Gone, like yesterday is gone,
like history is gone,
just trying to prove me wrong
and pretend like your immortal.

EMPTY_HEADED: The Bible is the word of 'A' God, Pharaoh written by illiterates who couldn't read God's writing. They got the idea and are Pharaoh imitators, "do what they say or go to hell."

Zealots have overloaded their 'supernatural being's' wagon a bit. It's a no-brainer. The THING in the ball of fire Moses made the deal with had to use trickery and resort to murder to get the Israelites out of Egypt. The modern zealot's supernatural being God is almighty, could just 'will' the Israelites to wherever.

NOTE: spelling god with an upper case G is impropper if the being in question is supernatural. Only men are Gods. All non mem are gods. Hirohito was God, replace by new God, MacArthur. Got that direct from the source, Fuji who said, "old God broke, got new God, MacArthur."

That is way too simple for the sophisticated thinkers who've totally overlooked it. The humor is so great listening to a minister talking about God that it's dangerous, laugh yourself to death.

Religion, faith is all in Devil. People go to church to get saved. Is that saved from God or Devil?

Paganplace:

>>"..akin to a childs hissy-fit."

>>Child of what? Again you rely on fallacious assumptions.

With all due respect..your response floors me

Child of what???????????

Look closely...I will try to make it elementary..

AKIN-TO-A-HUMAN-CHILDS-HISSY-FIT (I guess I should have clarified it with HUMAN)

Human child..Human child. What did you expect..
Darwins 'child'? (aka APE)

Sorry, but I find that utterly unbelievable.

Off to the next blog...((((((whew))))))

Sincere question:

Is there any here that believes the Bible is the unerring word of God?

Sincere question:

Is there any here that believes the Bible is the unerring word of God?

Hello "Warm Heart" "Cyber Eyes" "One More" et al

Yes, enjoy the "New Song" here while IT lasts. Praise the Lord Eclat! Chow.

"Most religions are attempts to placate an angry Deity."

I can only think of three off the top of my head - Judism, Christianity, and Islam. They are all based on the same fable: A man named Abraham was willing to kill his son because his god told him to. In later books, the god became not just "an angry god," but the only god.

Gaby: "I hope, you and all the other Wiccans can remain true to yourselves despite being assailed for your believes."

Oh, don't worry, Gaby, it's a specialty, if not a sport, at this point. ;) Thanks, though. :)

" TDAY:

Paganplace..

Regardless of your cynicism...the burden of proof is still remains upon you and me..on all mankind to prove them (the 10 commandments) wrong."

Not in any school of logic *I* know.

I got nothing to prove. You, on the other hand, seem to be making a lot of fallacious assertions based on an authority I don't accept.

"To blame a creator you dont believe in, or those who do believe in one, or politicians is totally irrelavant.."

Projection.

"..akin to a childs hissy-fit."

Child of what? Again you rely on fallacious assumptions.

The lunatics I meant concerning the nature of heaven ranged from the biblical authors to all theologians over the last 2000 years.

Is this guy (BGONE)representative of atheism this day and age??

...way far

Does anyone know what BGONE smokes???

Far out, man.

Of course the big money goes to those who lead the multitudes to hell. Moses is the original 'seller of soul' for the treasure of earth. He and not Abraham is the founder of the three great faiths.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul will fill you in on the details. Hell is on fire and so was the being in the 'burning bush' that Moses made the deal with.

Well I'll BEGONE!

Paganplace..

Regardless of your cynicism...the burden of proof is still remains upon you and me..on all mankind to prove them (the 10 commandments) wrong.

To blame a creator you dont believe in, or those who do believe in one, or politicians is totally irrelavant..

..akin to a childs hissy-fit.

Marilyn: the 'lord's prayer' is a thumbnail sketch of Egyptian history.

Our father who are in heaven - THE SUN
Hallowed - SUN has a halo
be thy name - THE NAME IS NOT GOD
Thy kingdom come - SUN WORSHIPPING PHARAOHs
Thy will be done - OR ELSE
On earth as it is in heaven (the sky) - WHEN THE SUN COMES OUT ALL THE STARS SKIDADLE
Give us this day our daily bread - PHARAOH CONFISCATED ALL THE FOOD. FOLKS STOOD IN LINE FOR A CUP OF THE FOOD THEY HAD PRODUCED. UNIQUE TO ANCIENT EGYPT.

THE REST IS NONSENSE.

http://www.hoax-buster.org has the origin of the three great faiths. It's all about hell, the place where Pharaoh discarded his enemies. Is it real or imaginary?

Pharaoh convinced people that those they killed in his name would NOT be waiting for them in the next world. The Sioux Indians hacked up the bodies of the 7th calvary so they would be incapicated in the next world. Jesus agreed with the Sioux theory, "If your eye cause you to sin then gouge it out. Better to enter life missing an eye..."

Did Hitler have all those Jews waiting for him in the next world? Hell solves a real serious problem for killers, facing their victims, advantage victims.

"Cal sez:

"True Religion Works From Inside Out."

So, it's a laxative?"

Hahahahahhahahha, Mr. Mark, that is funny.

Paganplace,

there are those who will never have an open ear for anything other than their own preconceived notions. I truly believe you can brainwash some people so they are completely removed from rational thinking. How else would you explain Jonestown or the David Karesh cult? Or any of the fundamentalists Christian or otherwise.

I hope, you and all the other Wiccans can remain true to yourselves despite being assailed for your believes.

To Cal's original post here, yes, I also believe it comes from the inside. The ultimate truth, the spirit, that is within us can only be sought and known through our own individual effort. The inner drive/desire to seek requires something to be present within the person's soul - maybe it's not in all of us, or maybe it is but it's buried deeper and lies undiscovered in some of us, I don't know. But I DO know that a non-believer will never convince someone who has that undeniable ultimate presence within him/her to conclude on a rational or intellectual basis that the spirit within him does not exist, whether the persuasion is based on science or history or archaeology or whatever else can be brought forth. The reverse may also be true, that someone who either does not have that presence within them or is merely not yet aware of it can be convinced that it does exist. It is not rational, it is not of man's making, it is not for human beings to prove or disprove - it simply is. The tension (accompanied by some fairly intelligent-sounding arguments in some cases) makes for a heck of an entertaining read though!

For the record, too, most of the politicians arguing so stridently for the importance of posting the Ten Commandments in public places couldn't even cite four, and that's without taking points off for claiming things that *aren't* there were the 'Word of God.'

Still want a theocracy?

I agree with Hitchens; however, his thoughts are no more unique than any other post-modern criticism of religion in general. If the book is that controversial, it is only because we in America have held onto the modern perception of religion for far too long.

Religion was and remains to be conceived by humanity and seeks at its best to promote understanding, love, and peace and at its worst absolute control. When religion is a living tradition, it can give and breathe new life into those that embrace its traditions; when religion ceases to move it becomes stale and life-taking.

What is unfortunate, is that the clergy and laity have for their own unique reasons, settled on one particular tradition of religion. Rather than seek out new ways of listening to God speak to us and speaking back to God, we have compromised and bought into a dead relationship with a living God.

If there is anything to be learned from the post-modern critique of religion, is that like all other judgments, we must be humble in our worldview. Judaism, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Paganism, etc. do not hold the one or all truths. However, each one has the capacity to enlighten humanity to interpreting our relation with the divine. Whether it is the recitation of the Lord's Prayer or the embodiment of bodhicitta, there is much to be learned. If we come to engage in a more pluralistic view where every tradition is seen as valid, we will turn away from these modern and fundamentalist interpretations of scriptures, traditions, and dogmas and begin to see the expanded horizon of what religion can be.

For the record, btw, Mr. Faith-Based-Dry-Drunk-With-The-Football *was* asked that question.

He hemmed and hawwed and didn't answer.

Yah. Go.... Ten Commandments.

Cal Thomas wrote: "True religion works from the inside-out when Jesus transforms us, not the outside-in through laws, rules and regulations."

So if Jesus doesn't "transform us" then whatever religion we may follow isn't actually "true" religion?

" Empty_Headed:

Let’s sit down with the Pope and ask, “Do you believe in the immaculate conception?”

I think I'd rather ask, "Who taught you that what conceived *you* was "dirty?" "

“Do you believe in that God created man, specifically named Adam and Eve?”

Dirt! Not monkeys! That's demeaning!

“Do you believe that Jesus died and then rose from the grave?” “Do you believe in the rapture will at some point happen?"

What you don't want to ask is the President who happens to walk around with the codes to the nuclear arsenal if he thinks we're living in the divinely-ordained End Times.

Might keep you up nights.

Good thing we're a little used to it.

As for 'burdens of proof,' ...my friend, *extraordinary assertions require extraordinary proof.* *Talk,* however old, is not extraordinary proof. Merely another extraordinary assertion.

No, I do not think it would do the world any good to universally accept that whatever "I" someone claimed wrote in stone a bunch of proscriptions against graven images that people have since been trying to engrave in the mind, (never mind my local courthouse,) ever since, to little good effect... was my Lord and Master, whoever decided to claim to represent that being through whatever hangups and economic injustices they felt like sanctifying at the time.

I do not like it, Sam-I-Am. I do not like it one bit. Not on a plane, a train, or on an SUV with a bumpersticker gloating, 'I think my truck will kill you when I mysteriously dissapear.'

Funny how that could happen. Just not as advertised.

I do not like it one bit.

Green eggs and ham, maybe, I Yam What I Yam, maybe. Words?

Nope.

Talk is cheap.

OK, when we start talking about God as being a non-specific grand force in the universe we get WAY off track. I think we need to address specific God(s) and or religious dogma.

Let’s sit down with the Pope and ask, “Do you believe in the immaculate conception?” “Do you believe in that God created man, specifically named Adam and Eve?” “Do you believe that Jesus died and then rose from the grave?” “Do you believe in the rapture will at some point happen?”

Do I have faith in the universe? Yes. Do I think we have a purpose? Yes. Do I believe that existence is a crazy bag of nuts that may have some underlining meaning that I don’t get? Yes. Could you call all that God? Yes.

The whole Jesus riding a donkey and all the rigmarole is what I firmly disbelieve. Armageddon? Hogwash. The earth only being a few (is it ten?) thousand years old? Destructive hogwash!

The problem isn’t the belief in God or faith in any particular religion. The problem is when beliefs cloud the pursuit of knowledge and shape public policy. I don’t want a guy who firmly believes that one day soon he and a few select others are going to vanish joining God in Heaven making my long term heath plans…

I’m just saying.

"And you tell me, my friend, which one of the 10 commandments..any of them...if kept by all mankind to the best of their ability, wouldnt make this a better world? The burden of proof is on each of us individually. Talk is cheap."

Umm, the first one, for starters?

Especially if talk is cheap.

“The Lords Prayer!”
Within its contents lies the Solution to the entire Worlds’ Problems. It is such “Good News” and it is soooo seldom that we hear “Good News.”

In all its simplicity “The Lord’s Prayer” or “Our Father Prayer,” answers “three” of the most catastrophic problems facing humans today. Jesus provided the Solution to all the World’s problems (in just three sentences.) Problems such as; Will there ever be “World Peace?” Will the earth be destroyed by “Weapons of Mass Destruction” or possibly an “Asteroid from Outer Space?” Or will there ever be a time when “Sickness, Sorrow and Death” is done away with?

We pray in modern English, “Let your Kingdom come.” God’s Kingdom is a Spiritual Government, I am sure that you are familiar with the terms “Prince of Peace and King of kings,” referring to Jesus Christ It is Jesus’ Spiritual Government that is going to bring permanent Peace to the Earth.

Then we continue; “Let your Kingdom come and let your will be done on earth.” In order for God’s will to be done on earth the earth has to remain and there will have to be people on earth to do God’s will. So we don’t have to worry about the earth being destroyed! But you may be wondering now will we always have to live with the tragedy of “Sickness, Sorrow and Death?” Jesus said NO!

“God’s will will be done on earth as it is in heaven” heaven is perfect! So in essence we are asking God to please rule this earth in Perfection as He once did in the Garden of Eden.

Wouldn’t you agree that this is “Good News?” That is why Jesus stated at Matthew 24:14, “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

Thank you so much for your time and attention. I do hope that this is “Good News” for you also.

Sincerely,
Marilyn

“The Lords Prayer!”
Within its contents lies the Solution to the entire Worlds’ Problems. It is such “Good News” and it is soooo seldom that we hear “Good News.”

In all its simplicity “The Lord’s Prayer” or “Our Father Prayer,” answers “three” of the most catastrophic problems facing humans today. Jesus provided the Solution to all the World’s problems (in just three sentences.) Problems such as; Will there ever be “World Peace?” Will the earth be destroyed by “Weapons of Mass Destruction” or possibly an “Asteroid from Outer Space?” Or will there ever be a time when “Sickness, Sorrow and Death” is done away with?

We pray in modern English, “Let your Kingdom come.” God’s Kingdom is a Spiritual Government, I am sure that you are familiar with the terms “Prince of Peace and King of kings,” referring to Jesus Christ It is Jesus’ Spiritual Government that is going to bring permanent Peace to the Earth.

Then we continue; “Let your Kingdom come and let your will be done on earth.” In order for God’s will to be done on earth the earth has to remain and there will have to be people on earth to do God’s will. So we don’t have to worry about the earth being destroyed! But you may be wondering now will we always have to live with the tragedy of “Sickness, Sorrow and Death?” Jesus said NO!

“God’s will will be done on earth as it is in heaven” heaven is perfect! So in essence we are asking God to please rule this earth in Perfection as He once did in the Garden of Eden.

Wouldn’t you agree that this is “Good News?” That is why Jesus stated at Matthew 24:14, “And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come.”

Thank you so much for your time and attention. I do hope that this is “Good News” for you also.

Sincerely,
Marilyn

Paganplace,

I suggest if you have a problem with what I quoted...why dont you find the ancestry of who wrote it and take it up with them. Like I said..not my words. My humble feeling: it fits.

And you tell me, my friend, which one of the 10 commandments..any of them...if kept by all mankind to the best of their ability, wouldnt make this a better world? The burden of proof is on each of us individually. Talk is cheap.

Hope:

Consider the lilies of the field:

Some may say they're Commies and a queer thing to be thinking about anyway, but they do grow, anyway, now, don't they?

That's what I call hope. :)

" Peacetroll:

So many with no faith.

No hope."

Is that really what you think?

How sad.

Did someone put a definition of 'faith' between you and 'hope?'

Would you like some hope?

PeaceTroll:

If you have nothing meaningful to add to the conversation, then please leave.

Candide wrote:

"No one knows about heaven -- if there is such a place and/or what it would be like. The lunatics who wrote about it knew nothing about it."

Candide was apparently around and personally knew the people who wrote about heaven, and can tell us without a doubt that they were lunatics. Tell us, what were they like?

1 Thessalonians 4:13
But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

So many with no faith.

No hope.

Cal sez:

"True Religion Works From Inside Out."

So, it's a laxative?

No one knows about heaven -- if there is such a place and/or what it would be like. The lunatics who wrote about it knew nothing about it.

Cal Thomas:

So, religion is man-made, but the One True Relgion is God-made. Apparently consistency is not one of the man-made/God-made virtues.

"Where do bad folks go when they die?
They don't go to heaven where the angels fly
They go to the lake of fire and fry
Won't see them again 'till the fourth of July"

You telling me the Meat Puppets were wrong about heaven and hell?

GANDALF,

We learn by repetition akin to the repeat reading of the mythical OT.

And in that, I mean, ...if you think the world is completely-deceived by some form of religious corruption, do you assume you're the one *not* deceived,* when you choose who and what to follow, then scream about how deceived everyone is, or...

Do you accept that sometimes you just don't know, not even with a book, and try honesty? :)

Tday:

"No wonder Rev 12:9 states the adversary has decieved the WHOLE world (not my words, folks)"

They are, now.

Ready to work with that?

It would be nice if Candide, et. al. would educate themselves about conceptions of 'afterlife'...Harps, living on clouds, pearly gates are all human conceptions with no basis. Scripture speaks of 3 resurrections, which will include all of mankind who have never had the chance to know God...along with this earth being restored in the kingdom of God.

And btw, BGONE...the ever-burning hell of which you speak is, in the greek, gahenna...a consuming fire (ie lake of fire)...no dancing around with pitchforks being stuck in you for eternity. Another of mans concoctions.

No wonder Rev 12:9 states the adversary has decieved the WHOLE world (not my words, folks)

To Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
Why do you keep posting the same idiotic meaningless response on every panelist's post? I remember reading this response from you a month ago...still copy-pasting the same thing, are we? Very intellectual....honestly!

All faith is in Devil and not God at all. "Unless your accept Jesus Christ as your savior..." says it all. Jesus saves those who believe from Devil. They must believe in Devil else there is nothing to be saved from.

The notion of terrorizing people with threats of hell is very old and the foundation of the three great faiths. Nonsense like "systems of beliefs" or "God" are just smoke screens, the smoke and mirrors of the confidence scam called religion.

The first fellow of record to operate the religion scam was Pharaoh, son of god, Himself a living God. The spelling of G/god with the upper case says a person and not a supernatural being. Unless the ancient Egyptians accepted Pharaoh as their savior... The three great faiths are all imitators of the origional terrorists, Pharaoh.

Jesus Christ of the Gospels comes directly from a would be Pharaoh, Amenophis IV who flunked the "son of God" test, twice. She was not a son and not the son of Pharaoh either one.

http://www.hoax-buster.org page 2 has the story of the life and times of the person on whom the terrorists, Jesus Christ is based. Hell is the greatest terror possible, an eternity of burning, according to the Gospels.

Does the book mention any of this or just another atheists rant?

Candide wrote:

"Have you ever thought how dull heaven would be if it existed? Harps, hosannahs, stupid pietists and pieties?"

I sure am glad heaven isn't going to be like that!

Yes, we often think that with age we get more religious. But many in their older age come to understand better that this life is all there is -- 'twould of course be better to learn this earlier.

The elderly atheist is one who is calm and self-assured in the fact of death. He doesn't need angels with harps. Have you ever thought how dull heaven would be if it existed? Harps, hosannahs, stupid pietists and pieties?

Is religion "man-made"?

Based on analyses of the founders of said contemporary religions, the answer would be a resounding YES, INDEED !!!!!!

As previously noted:

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. And the book where we "find" his "biography" is so tainted with myths, none of it is reliable history.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic but even these sayings and ways have roots in prior religions. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian/Gentile/Jewish sects.

See also Professor Bruce Chilton's commentary in his book, Rabbi Jesus, An Intimate Biography, pp 99-101- An excerpt:

"What Luke misses is that Jesus stood in the synagogue as an illiterate mamzer in his claim to be the Lord's anointed".

Paul, the Great Embellisher, promulgated the "word" but they were the words borrowed from Cynics and other ancient religions/races. His attempt at "prophecy/fortune telling" i.e. the imminent second coming, failed historically but was quite successful in conversions and financial support. Contemporary evangelists continue to be financially rewarded with the "second coming" scenario. Easy money to say the least!!!!

As per Professor Crossan in his book, Who is Jesus?, the accounts of Jesus' last days are "prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered". A better view would be "fortune telling turned into money, rather than the reality of it all."

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - (from an on-line Hindu site)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.

http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM

Bottom line: Contemporary religion is the evolution of "humankind's" views of good conduct first formulated by the Egyptians, Babylonians, Greeks, Hittites, Canaanites, Cynics, Persians, various Chinese dynasties and Common Sense.

Note: The On Faith webmaster limits web site references to two per commentary. Added references provided as so desired.

Little theological correction:

"Most religions are attempts to placate an angry Deity, or a set of rules and regulations designed to appease him (or her in the case of goddess worshippers)."

Actually, most modern Goddess religion is explicitly *not* about the idea of 'appeasing a Goddess,' (again, perhaps some assumptions about what religion necessarily *is* are being projected, here.)

The very idea that 'appeasement' is supposed to be our relationship with the Divine is something most modern Pagans reject, in one way or another.

There's few, if any, things we treat in anything like the way book-religions treat Scripture, but one of our most-revered visions of the Goddess says explicitly, "Nor do I demand anything of sacrifice, for behold, I am the Mother of all things, and my love is poured out upon Earth."

We tend to look on this as a very positive evolution. :) Maybe we're more about *not polluting the Earth* than 'not being polluted *by* it,' but it seems a similar sentiment to the idea that things are best expressed from within. :)

Who dies for us is what we eat, and that's the cycle of *life,* not a jealous and displeased Goddess appeasing Herself or anything like that. It's humans that tend to think sacrifices are necessary, from *someone,* if not ourselves, if we aren't careful.

I believe in a God. I grew up a Christian. However the older I get the less I believe in religion. They have all been perverted over the years and I find myself not having much use for one in my middle-age.

As a Christian who is familiar with Hitchens and his book I must sadly admit that he makes many valid points.

Considering that he used to work for that stooge Jerry Falwell, I find Cal's response about organized religion to be somewhat surprising. I can't believe that I kinda, sorta agree with Cal.