Salvation the True Liberation

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Concerning Cal's article on Fort Dix:

1. Apparently, fighting them there so we don't fight them here isn't working out.

2. Leave it to 3 brainiacs to plot to attack an ARMY BASE!

of course, that might have actually worked if,

3. All of the troops assigned to Fort Dix are currently in Iraq.

Hmmm. Anyone have anything to say about the above article?

5/14/2007 10:35:00 AM

U.S. dodges bullets at Fort Dix

Cal Thomas

The United States dodged another bullet - several in fact - when authorities foiled an alleged terrorist attack on the Fort Dix Army base in New Jersey by six men described by authorities as "radical Islamists." Three of the men are illegal immigrants.

White House press secretary Tony Snow said there is "no direct evidence" that the suspects have ties to international terrorism. Perhaps not in the traditional way that "ties" has been defined, but there are other ties that bind people to international terrorism without commissions or charters from a terrorist organization. That is what makes this freelance form of terrorism especially difficult to thwart.

Had it not been for the carelessness of one of the suspects who asked a local video store to copy a training video depicting men with weapons shouting "God is great" and proclaiming jihad, the alleged plot might have succeeded. The owner of the store tipped off authorities, which then began a 15-month investigation resulting in the arrests of the men.

Some advocacy groups want the right to sue people who report suspicious activity, as in the case of passengers aboard a U.S. Airways flight who reported several imams they believed were behaving suspiciously. Now the imams, with the help of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, a Muslim lobby group, have filed suit in hopes of obtaining the names of the passengers so they can be sued.

The usual groups issue the predictable statements condemning the alleged terrorist plot at Fort Dix, repeating that Islam is a "peaceful religion."

Recall that the late Yasser Arafat, chairman of the Palestine Liberation Organization, repeatedly condemned terrorist attacks he either helped instigate or inspired.

It is more prudent to pay attention to what terrorists say and do rather than to what the sophisticated, media-savvy conveyers of disinformation tell us.

Authorities said one of the suspects is believed to have been a sniper in Kosovo and he and the other men had been training at a firing range in Pennsylvania.

Eljvir Duka, 23, is quoted in the complaint as saying, "When it comes to defending your religion, when someone is trying to attack your religion, your way of life, then you go jihad." This is the triumph of the brainwashers throughout the Islamic world. They teach the youngest of children that jihad and dying for Allah is their sole guarantee of heaven. That's a tough doctrine to overcome, especially when Western diplomats are seen as infidel "cross-worshippers" and "Jewish pigs" deserving of death.

Christopher J. Christie, the U.S. attorney for New Jersey, told a news conference, "This is a new brand of terrorism where a small cell of people can bring enormous devastation."

Is anyone in doubt as to the terrorist game plan? It is to intimidate, subjugate and eradicate U.S. citizens and bring the United States to its knees. This is not a secret. It is preached throughout the world in mosques and in Arab and Muslim media. As more aliens enter this country - legally and illegally - those who are Muslims are building mosques faster than coffee shop chains.

The Saudis, who teach the most virulent and violent strain of Islam, underwrite most of them. That is not to say all Muslims are terrorists, or that all mosques are centers for terrorist training, but surely some are and how do we identify them before we experience another Sept. 11 . times 10?

According to the Hartford Institute for Religion Research, the number of mosques in America grew 60 percent between 1995 and 2000, second only to the Christian mega-churches and well ahead of the Mormons and Assemblies of God. One finds no reciprocity in Muslim countries, where churches, and especially synagogues, are either tightly controlled or banned outright. In the Washington, D.C., area, alone, there are an estimated 45 mosques. It only takes one to serve as a theological instruction center for young jihadists who believe that killing Americans is his or her highest "calling."

It is long past time to stop worrying about political correctness and "sensitivities" and do what is necessary to improve our security before someone with official ties to al-Qaida, or simply religious freelancers, shoot up a shopping mall or a school.

Congress can start by putting real teeth into the immigration bill that will be up for debate soon. And then we have to get serious about dealing with the threat living in our midst.

Thanks for the post Cal. Yes Garak, it is conceivable that had Hitler repented on his deathbed he could have been forgiven and been admitted to Heaven.

Now, Bill Clinton?

So if Hitler had found Jesus on his deathbed, confessed his sins and repented, he'd be in heaven now? Gimmee a break!

and i will learn to spell for my next post :)

Ghostbuster.

Thanks, now I will have that silly song in my had all night.

But I've got your back!

Rob, good enough.

Don't you like the catchy theme song too?

I will stand with you ghostbuster... but only because I liked the movie

Gerry,

I agree that it is difficult to always be civil. I'm human, there are times I lose it and say things I shouldn't. And what is civil to you may not be civil to me, you know?

When you think about it, we're talking about things in here that people have died over yesterday, will die over today and unless some people stand up and something to stop all the hatred will die tomorrow.

I do what little I can to keep the marketplace of ideas open. That is the #1 reason I visit forum boards like this. I am far more concerned with the bullies trying to keep people out of the marketplace, than the free speech that is going on inside.

Know what I mean?

Someone,

I don't insult anybody personally when I strongly (and civilly!) reject an idea in an anonymous thread!

Gerry:

People can disagree, people can even argue, without being disrespectful to a person's character, and while still maintaining their civility toward others. There simply is no reason to go at this like a war, when what it should be is a coming together of minds, ideas, conversations and information.

Ghostbuster,

I do respect your attempt to be as civil as possible in a discussion which, let's face it, involves life and death and hell and eternal torture, and the self-definition in the minds (what else have we got?) of so many people.. I must admit that I have some difficulty to talk about the nightmares implied in all religions with a tone I would use in a nice talk over a cup of tea.

For myself, I have long ago given up ANY belief of a religious "revelation", be it Moses, Christ, Mohammed, Luther or Smith, and I can't tell you all how free, unburdened, accountable, loving, admiring, awe-inspired, moral, "connected" I feel after this step in my life. I think I am close to Gaby's "IT", whatever "it" may be, which borders on (or represents) the unexplainable of our lives without any historically conditioned, exchangeable human projection of human desires and questions on any given guru, and, worse, his followers.

I do believe in life, not in afterlife. Life is what I (we!) have, afterlife is the very human but unproven idea and desire to perpetuate my little self, which I think is much less important than the sum, the process of life. I don't have any difficulty imagining my life as a drop of "IT" which was isolated to become a conscious entity for a life span, through my conception and birth and will be re-integrated again after my death. I don't need any supernatural. Nature is already super, and the immodest request of some supernatural would have to be followed by a super-super....n -supernatural, which, of course, is nonsense.

So, from a distance, I must shake my head when I observe people getting at eachothers' throat on an illusionary ground that motivates both sides. Therefore, sometimes, ghostbuster, I think we have to argue strongly and cannot always have a civility contest over the most fundamental questions of humanity.

He said "big But".......

Gaby,

John Lennon's "Imagine" comes to mind. We probably all wish it were so. Then again, there is always George Orwell's utopian nightmare lurking in that big But. Still, I wish it were so. So it goes.

That true, Tonio, I forgot!

"You guys would be skeptical of someone who could guarantee a peaceful world, end of poverty and disease, yet you espouse the teachings of the Bible?"

I never said I espouse those teachings. I believe in evaluating the moral teachings of any religion's scripture on their own merits, apart from claims about the supernatural.

Hmmmmm, interesting responses.

You guys would be skeptical of someone who could guarantee a peaceful world, end of poverty and disease, yet you espouse the teachings of the Bible? I find that curious.

But, honestly, after seeing the images of war ravaged counties, of starving children, of people in excrutiating pain, I sometimes feel so hopeless. Like, it shouldn't be like this, there has to be a better way.

So I sit by my pond and dream what a world would be like without all this ugliness. What I see in my mind makes me happy for a while. And I fervently wish I could make it come true.

You say nothing is free. I believe that some things are free, like unconditional love, or the smile on the face of someone you've been kind to, or that wonderful feeling you get on a beautiful spring day when you just want to reach out and hug the world.

Actually, I would be leery also, if someone claimed he/she could accomplish all that and expects nothing in return. We natually have suspicious minds.

So just strike this one as the ramblings of an old woman who can not abide pain and suffering by anyone, but can't do anything about it.

"I would be one of the skeptical ones. I'd want to know what the catch was. You know, 'ok, world peace, no hunger, poverty or disease, BUT..........'. I would tend to think there would be a really big BUT there somewhere. Nothing is free, you know. I am a major skeptic at heart."

I feel the same way. When I read Gaby's scenario, I pictured the outcome as being some nightmarish dystopia, like the Twilight Zone episode "To Serve Man" or the 1980s TV series "V".

Oh, see, I knew it was coming.......

Someone likes big butts and I cannot lie......

Gaby:

Hmmm, I don't know. I would be one of the skeptical ones. I'd want to know what the catch was. You know, "ok, world peace, no hunger, poverty or disease, BUT..........". I would tend to think there would be a really big BUT there somewhere. Nothing is free, you know. I am a major skeptic at heart.

Did I just say really big but?

Gaby:

I would nominate myself for that position, but I am far too busy. Gotta wash my hair, and tie my shoes. Then, maybe a nap. No High Authority can afford to miss nap time. Makes me grumpy. Don't want me grumpy.

Ghostbuster:

You are absolutely right. I have thought about leaving this forum many times, changed my name many times thinking that might make a difference, finally simply becoming an anonymous "Someone" with no definition other than my religion. Do you know what I found? The nicer I became, the more I was called "stupid" and "ignorant" about what was truth. As if not arguing and attacking was a sign that I was uneducated. They would be surprised...

I have made a point on numerous occasions to remind posters here that this forum's purpose is for "intelligent, informed, eclectic, respectful conversation", to "engage in a conversation about faith and its implications in a way that sheds light rather than generates heat". I have never received a response from a poster in this forum when I have reiterated these guidelines.

We are supposed to be here to have conversations, not arguments. We are supposed to be respectful while we are here; there is so much disrespect shown in this forum it's a wonder it still exists. We in this forum are supposed to be able "to carry on a fruitful, intriguing, and above all constructive conversation", and instead, sometimes this place looks like a battlefield.

I am "Someone" who stands with you, Ghostbuster. I will always peacefully stand for people's rights to believe and discuss without fear of attack or disrespect. How else can we guarantee a true exchange of diverse ideas and beliefs?

Ghostbuster,

I'm with you. Albeit every now and then someone ( not "Someone") gets under my skin and I just get that terrible itch.

But at least I try to civil, which is more than I can say for many here.

Someone,

I thought that ECLATi would get your attention. Honestly though, Jacob is OK. It just takes a little time to understand him. I have pretty much figured him out.

All he wants is world peace, which he believes can be possbile with OUR (One Universal Religions) NEW SONG that will be subscribed to by all countries via the United Nations. He pretty much believes that established organized religions are the cause of much human misery and wars.

Other than that he believes pretty much what I believe. That there is a higher power (IT) which permeates the whole universe and we are part of IT. When we die our energy rejoins with the rest of the cosmic power and we become one with IT.

Anyhow, back to my questions then. Do you think that people would give up their religious beliefs if world peace and eradication of hunger, poverty, and disease could be estblished via a human being?

Someone wrote:
---A revolutionary is a supporter of bringing about radical social or political change. Jesus most certainly fits into this category. Not only did he support radical change, he preached it, he practiced it, and he started the Christian movement, which was most definitely a radical social change.---

Jesus brought no political change. His social change was squashed by Rome as were some of his apostles. The idea lived though and was considered a small cult until Constantine 300 years later. You may think its a powerful religion that took the world by storm, but what took the world by storm was Rome lead by a Christian who used law and war to elevate the fledgling church to a state religion. That is revolution. Statues of Roman gods were destroyed under Constantine. People were killed for not converting to christianity. Lands that held onto the old gods were invaded and forced to convert at the tip of a sword. That is how your religion of love was spread throughout Europe and the Middle East and not by its naturally good nature. You can call Christ the seed of the revolution, like Karl Marks was the seed of the bolshevik revolution. But Marks was not the revolutionary, it was Lenin and Mao.

WICCAN: Dog religion? What those people said about your beliefs is unfortunate and ignorant. I’ve seen worse though, as I’m sure you have too. Mostly from “Christians” I bet, right?

All: My point was more about people who are actually "paid" as part of their job to visit boards like this one, but what you guys are talking about is more interesting.

Christians are the majority religion in this country, so I agree they would probably take the bulk of the comments. But, are Christians unfairly singled out for “criticism”? I think the answer is YES and NO. They are singled out by an incredible majority of the visitors on these boards but the word "unfairly" is subjective whereas much of the criticism is justifiable. Some people cry “foul” simply because they have thin skin.

I'd say the Muslims get slammed on here. The Mormons get it usually from ex-mormons, orthodox christians and others who think Mormons and Christians are the same, and just slam them as a 2-for-1 special.

Anyways, all of these quotes listed below are also listed above and were made in reference to Christianity, Christians, Jesus, Cal Thomas or all of the above. I just pulled a couple of the highlights from the first 15 in this one single thread. If there is a * that means I found the comment positive off-topic, funny (Mr. Mark) or neutral towards Christianity...

1) No, it does not appear that it confers any consistent doctrine

2) You have become the Pharisees

3) *

4) Can't these people ever wake up from their dreams

5) Jesus was a big commie (don't know if this one was meant to be negative)

6) *

7) You know that you and smug, comfortable old men like you are a part of the problem

8) How do you sleep at night?

9) Cal Thomas is a whitened sepulcher

10) We need Jesus to come down here and eradicate false prophets like Cal

11) *Who let this one in?

12) *

13) Cal Thomas is a tool of the powerful and derives his wealth from them

14) But "converion" means brainlessly swallowing all the dogma the Church has fabricated over the years. When Christians blather on about "the Bible says...." what they really mean is "my preacher says......"

15) *

This is just a sampling from one thread. There are hundreds of threads just like this one. You know what... I think I was becoming desensitized. Some of this (not all) is chilling speech! Label them – call them names – demean their beliefs – and you render anything they say as irrelevant and “win”. It is no wonder so many decent people visit a board like this comment once or twice then leave, quickly never to return.

Today I re-cast my lot with anyone who stands up against attack speech like this, no matter what you believe or disbelieve in. I’ve spent considerable time on other boards defending pagans from “Christians”. On this board, I will stand with those who are grossly maligned, in this case mainly my Christian brothers & sisters, while treating those who constantly accuse and demean with the respect that they do NOT show us, as described in Romans 12.

Hopefully, some people will join me and we can help make these boards a better place where all can share their opinions without getting jumped.

If this be err, then upon me proved.

Someone-

"I guess that would probably be true no matter what religion I had become..."

Honey, that's true. I've seen people in this forum tear each other up over WHAT type of Christian they were. You just can't please everyone, so please yourself!

Gaby:

Oh No! Not ECLATi! I think I would go insane if I had to listen to sermons that sounded like Jozevz's posts! Sometimes I think he needs to ask his doctor for new meds. ;)

Was that mean? I just feel so sorry for the poor guy. I think he's been thru hell and back.

Wiccan:

Well, it doesn't comfort me to know that, it just makes me sad. A dog religion? What does that even mean? We know that so many of these people speak out of ignorance, and yet sometimes it still hurts. I am not a life-long Christian, but I never saw such harshness aimed at Christianity until I became one. I guess that would probably be true no matter what religion I had become...

Thanks, Gaby. The one thing I like best about Wicca is that it makes no claims about being the "Only True Path" to the Divine. As long as you "harm none", no skin off my nose what religion you do or don't practice. :-)

Wiccan,

I don't know much about your religions, but from the little I have gleaned, it seems quite alright.

Russell:

I didn't say Buddhism taught prayer to God. I said it believed in the existance of gods. Big difference. Do you believe there are gods in the universe? Most devout Buddhists do. I'm talking about gods in the sense of devas, supernatural cosmic beings; Buddhists believe in both gods and devas.

Russel D.

Hahahha! Good one!

Someone,

No, better than a cosmic Snoopy! Jozevz ECLATi.

Somebody-

If it comforts you, posters on this forum have called Wicca a "made-up" religion, a "dog" religion, and Satanism. I agree with Gaby; Christianity is the dominant religion in the U.S., and therefore is targeted more often.

Gaby:

What would be the religious belief? I mean, it wouldn't be, like, praying to a cosmic Snoopy or something, would it?

Someone:

What Buddhism have you been studying? The type that I have been around prays to no God. It enforces chanting and bringing out inner power. I have been around this type of Buddhism for 20 some odd years. I was raised with it. God was never mentioned.

It taught inner strength and prosperity. No Diety involved whatsoever.

Russell:

First, let me say that I am not saying that anything is wrong with other religions. I am using them as comparisons to Christianity to see why non-religious posters feel that it is ok, indeed necessary, to bash Christianity, and not other organised religions.

Wicca is an organised religion that prays to a god and a goddess, and practices magic spells. They have sets of rules to follow, times of day, month and year you must pray and celebrate. Many believe that their god and goddess can manifest themselves into human forms.

Buddhism is an organised dharmic religion that says you must follow it's written law or "path" to obtain "salvation" from your suffering. Buddhists believe in the existance of gods and the possibility of attainment of eternal life.

These are the same types of things that come under attack in Christianity.

Gaby:

The man you are looking for is Gene Rodenberry, creator of Star Trek. Live long and prosper.

Sorry, that should have said:

As a non-believer I would NOT have a problem.

Someone,

I wonder???

What would happen if someone came along who could guarantee world peace, abolish hunger and poverty, wipe out disease and suffering as long as the worlds population could agree on ONE religious belief???

Now, I am not talking about some prophet or anything like that. Just an ordinary human being with the power to accomplish those things.

As a non-believer I would have a problem. How about you?

PS: I don't really bash either. And I fervently wish that one day we will get to that utopia I just described.

Someone,

Gaby has a good point. I don't see myself as bashing Christians, and I apologize if my posts seem that way.

My goal is to refute two notions found in many religions: first, the idea that any religion has exclusive claim to the truth; and second, the idea of supernatural explanations for natural events. Both of those amount to defining humanity in negative ways.

That goal has little to do with Christianity as opposed to other religions. It's simply easier to address Christian doctrine because I don't know as much about the other religions. I have strong feelings about the doctrines of original sin and eternal damnation, and i would have those same feelings if similar doctrines were found in other religions.

Is it possible for someone to believe in a God that does not interact with the natural world in any way? Is it possible for someone to believe in God and also believe that the universe has a natural origin and not a supernatural origin?

Gaby:

Thanks for your response. I agree with you, many Muslims have taken quite a beating here as well (I wonder how much of that is because of current world conditions). As for equal-opportunity bashing, at least that makes more sense to me for someone who says they are against organised religion. Personally, I'm not a basher; it just isn't my style. I used to be; but over time I have learned that there are better ways (at least for me) than negativity to deal with anything and everything. And then I don't feel on the inside the way Cal looks up there on the outside when I'm done making my point. ;)

Jihadist,

Thank you for reminding me that people need each other. I had forgotten.

Someone:

What is wrong with being a Wiccan? Or being a Buddhist? As far as I can see, those two religions are closer to a true and helpful religon than any others. I am not slandering the other religions, but it seems to me that those two in particular seem to be more in tune with what the world is actually about.

Someone,

I have to agree with you to some extent. But I think that many Christian bashers do so because they are more familiar with Christianity than with any of the other religions.

However, I have to say that Jihadist and several other Muslim posters have taken their beating over time. Some more, some less.

I, for one, bash them all alike. ;)

I give everyone the right to believe as they do, but I also like to argue my point. I never try to make it personal and if I do I am contrite.

IT is what IT is and we are part of IT.

Ghostbuster:

Good Morning. To answer your post about character assassinations.... I'm sure someone will jump all over this, but I just can't help myself....

I seem to find in this forum a number of non-religious posters who seem very quick to jump on Christian posters, refuting references to God and the Bible, and yet these same posters seem almost reluctant to launch similar attacks against people of other faiths (except the Mormons, who took a pounding over the last week).

I find this reluctance by non-religious posters to demean, and even a tendancy to defend, especially when it comes to religions such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Wicca, and various Paganism. This is in spite of the fact that these are all organised religions that worship multiple gods and idols, some practice or believe in magic and miracles, life after death or multiple lives, written books of "truths", etc. Now, why is that?

Ok, I'm ready; shoot at will...

Fate:

A revolutionary is a supporter of bringing about radical social or political change. Jesus most certainly fits into this category. Not only did he support radical change, he preached it, he practiced it, and he started the Christian movement, which was most definitely a radical social change.

Ghostbuster - regarding your concerns about people who come here with an “agenda.”

Advertising a product is certainly out of bounds - I haven't seen it here, except for the occasional people who are pushing their own websites.

Of course character assassination is wrong, no matter what the context. It's can also be hard to judge: what someone might consider character assassination, another might consider valid criticism.

Promoting or tearing down a position sounds like natural discussion to me. I enjoy hearing and discussing different points of view.

As much as Cal makes my stomach turn on a regular basis I have to agree with him here on one point, Christ was no revolutionary. He lead 12 apostles who, like many prophets of his time, went around and preached, living off the goodness of those who liked his message. That is not a revolutionary. Castro, Lenin, Jefferson, Washington, Mao ... those were revolutionaries. They brought in a new idea, spread it, organized it and in some cases imposed it, transforming their societies. Christ only brought in the new idea. Revolutionary ideas do not make a revolution.

The real revolutionary in Christianity was Constantine who adopted the small christian religion and, being Caesar, spread christianity throughout the Roman empire and beyond through war and rule of law. By doing this the church grew very wealthy and after Constantine it continued to spread the religion through new governments, church law that had earthly penalties, and missionary work it supported. If Constantine had not become a christian, it might have died out like so many other religions.

And now to hijack this played out thread...

A wise person once told me on my first day at a job "don't believe anything that you hear and only half of what you see".

I've heard some news recently about people who actually "go to work" on blogs such as this one. They come with an agenda which is to usually to either promote or tear down a position, advertise a product, or to act in character assassination.

Has anybody else heard of these types of shenanigans? Do tell...

gaby - people don't need organized religion, they just need to be organized.

For those interested in the social revolution and the money trail that followed, see below for references and commentary:

K.C. Hanson and D. E. Oakman, Palestine in the Time of Jesus, Fortress Press, 1998.

JD Crossan's books, In Search of Paul and also The Historic Jesus

Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews -- A History by James Carroll (Paperback - April 1, 2001)

You have to read in between the lines when searching out the influence of money in early Christianity since there were no economists in those days.

The wealth of the contemporary religions and associated aristocrats like the Queen of England is easily found via a Google search.

And money comes in various forms. For peasants like Jesus it came, in many cases, in the form of free room and board. One also assumes that Peter's travels especially to Rome were financed somehow. Ditto for Paul's many travels. Paul also collected significant funds from the Gentiles for Jewish famine relief. Did this also buy the Gentile entry into the movement? Probably. Paul also had a number of rich followers/disciples and his "prophecy" of the imminent second coming must have been a real money maker. (Still is!!!)

Jesus' ability to instantaneously change water into wine and replicate bread and fish sure kept expenses down. One must wonder if he had a winery and bakery as a side business? :))

As per Crossan, the movement started as egalitarian . As we know, it did not proceed down that path for very long.

And we also have this conclusion:

"Reimarus (1774-1778) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

As per R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

Gaby

"Whole kit and caboodle"? That's a new one. I like it better than "moronic" for believing in the existence of God:)

Good question you've asked:

"I still don't know why people need organized religion. Christian or otherwise."

People will always organize themselves for what they believe in - be it secular or religious. Organized groups not only have objectiives or missions, but set rules and regulations for members, membership fees and fund-raising activities. Even my golf/country club, not to mention the myriad NGOs I am member of or funded. And my golf/country club even expel members for non-compliance or shirking of rules and regulations. And non-payment of fees. That is always what happens when we organized ourselves into groups. We need office bearers and such and budgets to continue activities.

If one believe in a God, one certainly relate to God at a personal level in times of joy and sorrow, and for strenght in times of tribulations. One see all manifestation of God in all creation on earth, nature and the universe itself. One seek to discover the logic and wonders of earth and the universe through science to understand and wonder at life and creation.

Organized religion grew out of communities of believers for mutual support and community building. It was affirming, it was comforting for believers to be in a group of shared beliefs, mutual assistance and reliance . However, beliefs became institutionalized and hierachical over the centuries, and organized religion became one that seek believers to support and fund its institutions rather that the religious institutions supporting the community.

And, yes, while I think we should not be too picky about believers organizing themselves for group prayers and action for community well-being which is wonderful, we should take on religious entities that seek too much funds from believers for institutional support for its overheads and sometimes dubious activities.

Whatever your beliefs are, however you see creation, God, heaven and hell, that is your right Gaby. You are a wonderful and warm person. Don't let anyone get to you on what you believe in, which is truly human and humane.

Best regards as ever.

Well, Concerned, that is your view and Crossan's view, but it appears from all the God fearing people posting here that many believe the whole kit and caboodle.

Gaby,

What Bible? The OT has basically been thrown on the myth pile and only 30% of the NT is from the historical Jesus, the other 70% added to embellish the story line.

http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Crossan2.rtf

Concerned,

Don't be so preoccupied with the Koran. The Bible isn't exactly the book of unequivocal love.

Someone,

Sounds like a pack instinct. I've never been a pack person. Maybe that's why I don't grasp it.

Unfortunately Jihadist speaks for only a few Islamics. The other 95% are followers of the Book of Death aka The Koran.

Gaby wrote:

"I still don't know why people need organized religion. Christian or otherwise."

I used to think EXACTLY the same thing. Really. But I've come to find that it doesn't have to be organised religion, per se, but rather a church community that it is good to be a part of.

While it is absolutely true that you can (and should) worship God anywhere and anytime you please, there are many great things about being a part of a community of like-minded people. Just as musicians like to be a part of groups of other musicians, artists part of artistic groups, and so on. You can be part of a great exchange of ideas, find mentors or become one yourself, worship with like-minded people. And I'm not saying it should be the only community to be a group of either. We are all multi-faceted, and can (and should) be members of many different communities to fulfill all of our needs.

I still don't know why people need organized religion. Christian or otherwise.

Jihadist,

Thank you for your explanation.

Hi, Ghostbuster,

Yes, I did spend time outside. It was wonderful sitting by my pond looking at the Koi swimming around and listening to the waterfall. Playing fetch with my dogs and having a beer afterwards.

Very peaceful indeed. I find God in the outdoors and in nature. Maybe I am really Wiccan and just don't know it. ;)

Good summary, Rafael. My beef with the first response is the claim of "everyone." I see no valid reason for any religion to make that kind of universal truth claim. No one is responsible for others' religious beliefs, so it would be better for the response to be, "I believe I will be judged fairly in heaven and I have no belief regarding anyone else." If one believes in God, there is no valid reason to believe that one knows God's will for other people.

Rafael:

First, I didn't say that "everyone has heard of Jesus or practices your version of monotheism". Second, I don't know the answer to God's way of determining what is just. There are all kinds of people who think that they know what is "just", but there is always someone somewhere who doesn't agree with them.

These responses to the question are pathetic attempts to dodge the injustice of Christian views of salvation. Let me summarize:

* "I believe in a just god, therefore I believe everyone will be judged fairly in heaven." Sounds nice, but doesn't square with the Christian view that only those who have accepted Jesus in this life will be saved in the next. How will those who have never heard of Jesus be "judged fairly"?

* "I am so humble that I don't pretend to understand what god will do." Sorry, Christians do pretend to understand that only by accepting Jesus in this life are you spared by god in the next one. You can't have it both ways, telling people they must repent now or else but then assuming that "god works in mysterious ways" will take care of any contradictions.

* "I'll betcha more people have heard of Jesus than you think." Sounds hopeful, but the idea that everyone has heard of Jesus or practices your version of monotheism is patently false. And you're just avoiding the question: what about all who have not heard of Jesus before they die, has your just god consigned them to rot in hell for the misfortune of where they were born?

Hello Ghostbuster! Your post made me smile. I kind of like the name; I am now "Someone" for people to pick on. Perhaps a bit martyr-like, I know, but I can take it, since I am truly Anonamus at heart! :)

I just want people to think outside the box, just a little. Some people in these threads get very nit-picky, and argue extensively over very small, ultimately unimportant points. Sometimes we need to step back and look at the bigger picture. I think we are fools if we think that God has not revealed Himself or His wonders in places that we don't know about.

Gaby: Did you spend some time outside the other day after our conversation? I did. I doubt I would have made the time if I didn't chat with you, so thanks.

What was it you wanted to know? I noticed you were asking several things.

Someone: I see you are sticking with the name. It is not too late to change it to something catchy like "Anonaymis". Also, based on what you just posted, I would prepare myself for some "insults" if I were you ;

Karen,

I certainly did not mean to accost you personally. My statement had nothing to do with you, but rather Christianity as a whole.

I do have not a problem with God himself because I do believe in a supernatural being and intelligent design to a certain degree.

I do have a problem with the prophets who tell us what to believe and how to believe. I do not believe Jesus to be the son of God any more than I believe Joseph Smith was talking to the angel Moron(i)and that he translated the Book of Abraham from an Egyptian funeral papyrus or that Mohammed had a special connection to God and thus Islam was born.

I do not need stories written down in some book, a preacher to explain those stories to me, or the fellowship of others who think like I do and confirm that I indeed believe in the right thing, to know that I am part of a greater design and therefore can not possibly completely die.

Rafael wrote:

"Yet another time that the central question has been raised and left unanswered by Christians. I'll go one step further: the problem isn't that there are more non-believers, the problem is that the vast majority of humans have *never even heard* of Jesus. By the Christian rules, all of these people are condemned to eternal suffering simply as a consequence of where/when they were born. What kind of just and loving god would set up a world that operates by such rules? How have people become so arrogant in their delusion of believing in such rules out of a selfish fear for their own salvation?"

Here's something to chew on. I believe that there are many more people who know about God and Jesus than we all think know about them. They might not use the same names anymore, but they know, and are "believers". When Christianity began to spread throughout the world during its first few centuries, there were many opportunities for the word to be taken, even by chance, to far away lands. I submit to you that it is very likely that there are many peoples, in many lands, who have over the centuries accepted a faith in one God and a Saviour who was born and died for all of our sins. I think if you travel to colonies of people, you will find belief systems like this in place.

The word spreads because it must. For others, God will reveal himself in ways that urge people to seek Him out.

Karen - Do you think that people who are frequently cruel or selfish during their life here on earth will get into heaven, as long as they truly believe that Christ is their Saviour?

To Gaby and Rafael: please do not put words into my mouth. All I said is that belief in Jesus takes away fear of the afterlife and that since as christians we believe in salvation through grace and not through works, we do not help people to earn our way to Heaven.
I believe in a just and fair God and as such I trust that in the afterlife, all we be judged fairly. I am humble enough not to expect to understand all of God's way or demand that He explain all things to me or else, that's it, i won't believe.

Cal is not always right but Cal is 100% correct in everything he says above. Cal does not talk about this but you can not get to God on your own efforts, like the Five Pillars. Everyone has sinned and before a just God we are all unclean no matter how many times a day we pray or how many good works we do or how many chants we come up with. No one is worthy except through the mercy of God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. We can do nothing without Him.

Gaby: "Plus I find it presumptious of Christians to claim that only those believing in Christ will go to heaven (whatever that is supposed to mean). There are more people not believing in Christ than there are believers. Is your religion really condeming all these people to eternal death? Doesn't sound very compassionate to me!"

Yet another time that the central question has been raised and left unanswered by Christians. I'll go one step further: the problem isn't that there are more non-believers, the problem is that the vast majority of humans have *never even heard* of Jesus. By the Christian rules, all of these people are condemned to eternal suffering simply as a consequence of where/when they were born. What kind of just and loving god would set up a world that operates by such rules? How have people become so arrogant in their delusion of believing in such rules out of a selfish fear for their own salvation?

Hello Gaby,

I am not a native speaker of English. You would have noticed I constantly mangled my grammar and spellings as I do think in my mother tongue while setting it out in English. And I never go over and edit my posts here. And also please bear with me for the point forms here as I'm on a tight lunch break.

My view of heaven? A belief, a state of mind and the human condition.

Growing up, I was not exactly indoctrinated by my neighbourhood imams and Islamic studies teachers in school with fire and brimstone hell, heaven of gardens, streams and asexual beings keeping me company. Rather, to do the right thing for myself and for the collective well-being of the community by applying the tenets of Islam, specifically the Five Pillars.

It also used to be - everyone goes to heaven. For those who behave badly in life, they will experience appropriate states of hellish punishments, and then on to heaven. The end.

Nowadays, most Muslims don't really think about heaven and hell in the afterlife but here on earth. We all want a better life, a peaceful state of existence over and above the din of hellish conflicts.

We all say "I'm in hell", "I'm going through hell right now", "I'm in heaven" because we all have been through varying states of heaven and hell in our lives.

I am not that smart to fully understand the heavens and the earth, the process of creation that God only hinted at in the Holy Texts, and were described to the basic level of human comprehension.

The many descriptive passages of the Holy Texts also give us some ideas of what our individual and collective fate would be if we don't act responsibly.

The Holy Texts also give basic parameters for decent human behavior and limits against human excesses for men to live by amicably. Only a fool would not finetune that as humans progress as they should in every way.

It is easier to take the Holy Texts literally and unthinkingly, but that would be blind faith and an insult to God who gave man free will as a challenge to think, chose and do the right thing.

There is only one lifespan, one chance for man, who has free will, to make choices than can or never be undone.

If one did wrong, was caught for doing wrong, it can be be a hell of fire and brimstone avalanching on the soul if one has a conscience. It is indeed a state of grace, bliss and peace of heaven for one who did the right thing and in redeeming oneself of wrongdoing.

In the afterlife, after we are dead, we will still not be spared of what we have wrought here on earth and leave behind. We will still be answerable for the consequences of our actions by the living who will curse us to high heaven and damn us to be consigned to hell. Or prayed that we be in heaven for the good we have done.

The Day of Judgement, the Day of Reckoning is a warning, a reminder of what will happen to the human race in failing to strive for and ensure individual dignity, social justice, justice and peace for all.

We chose heaven or hell by our own actions. God, who gave us free will, already warned us on this, but still we continue to wreak havoc and hell on earth. If God send us all to hell for that, we deserve it. And we are already sending ourselves to hell here.

Best regards.

The drunken Moses Story's is as sobering as the Drunken Noah story's!?

Cal Thomas' picture may well belong in the dictionary under smug - smug being a close relative of pride - the most serious of the seven deadly sins. Cal is the kind of Christian that makes it harder to be a Christian. He uses Christ to justify his wars and his bigotry. In this little essay, he uses Christ to say that his wars and bigotry do not matter.
Jesus is a liberal, Cal. Recant and repent.

For me, the most powerful parable Jesus used was the one using the sheep and the goats, although that imagery is a very outdated. What isn't outdated is what he said, "When I was hungry, you fed me...", etc. But what I think is REALLY important is what THEY said, "Lord, when did we see YOU hungry?" To me, despite the use of Lord in reference to Jesus, the message is: you won't see ME, you may not even be a follower, but you're coming into my Father's house because you took care of the "least of these" out of simple respect for your fellow human being.
Next to this parable and its implications, everything else regarding salvation is a footnote, if there is any such thing as salvation.

We are all Liberation Theologists now, in one way or the other.

No we aren't. I detest your Gods. Or your God, Jehova or Allah. However, I acknowledge the power employed by these figments of the imagination on the common people.

What would really interest me is how Christians, Jews and Muslims view heaven.

Jihadist, you are a very well spoken person, obviously intelligent, tell me what is heaven in your view.

What does it look like?

I have never understood the concept of heaven, even as a little child being indoctrinated by the preacher.

Cal Thomas wrote :

"A person who engages in political revolution, but dies unredeemed, spends eternity apart from God.

A person who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ is more liberated than any government, movement, program, or cause can deliver."

Mr. Thomas, in gist, God help those who help themselves for peace and freedom. Yes, I join any cause, any movement to liberate us from poverty and ignorance. To liberate us from oppression. And God will redeem us for bringing peace and prosperity to all on earth.

We are all Liberation Theologists now, in one way or the other.

In our dark corner of the universe information and new knowledge seems to have stopped long ago and been settled in a fourth century committee meeting. I would say that the Bible is life. It is growing changing and getting larger every moment of human experience. The wilted religions of Europe are fading as they ought into an analog of the temples of the Maya or Cambodia. Referencing the Bible for understanding prophets and using the corrupted texts and translations as the only source is akin to swallowing spiritual junk food. It may make you fat but it will not make you wise. Let's take two or three thousand more years to learn to collect human experience into something substantial--let's live a century without war, ethnic hatred, and acceptance of tribal ignorance disguised as respect. Once we have that experience then we can take some lessons and fashion a Bible that truly guides human life. Jefferson knew salvation; Cal is just a narrow-minded bigot who likes the RC version of things.

Christianity is Platonism for the people.

Nietschze

Now would all you believers, you silly people, you shallow non-thinkers reflect on Witgenstein's great riddle: Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darueber muss man schweigen.

Try to reflect, instead of asking silly questions:

Also, how does one get into Heaven without living by Christian principles?

Hilarious.

To Whom It May Concern: Dear World God is real and a lot of people know His Name but not many people seem to know very much about Him at all. First off God is a Trinity like a lot of people seem to believe, Second the second Person of the Trinity did empty Himself and become a human being like a lot of people say. Third the Holy Spirit was sent to us to guide us into all Truth like some people seem to believe. God is Pure Love not the hate-filled, egotistical, revengeful piece of garbage that a lot of people that call themselves Christians think that He is. Jesus is the Saviour of the entire human race not the second rate prophet of the prince of this world. The True Living Triune Triumphant God is a searcher of people's hearts and minds and I would recommend that if you say that you are a Christian then be one. Truth is Truth whether you believe it or not and God does look at what you do but He is not the big authoritative cop in the sky like so many people want to scare you into believing. God has a Plan and it is unfolding before our very eyes and He has had this Plan before He created anything whether on the spiritual or material plane. I write He even though God is not male or female but you have to use some kind of pronoun to speak about Him, God incarnate though became a man but as you might have heard He asked permission from a Lady to become a human being. Judaism is not a religion but a covenential relationship between God and a people and Christianity is not a religion either but a covenential relationship between God and a person. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Christianity will slowly fade from society as will contemporary Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. "Pretty and ugly wingie thingies" simply do/did not exist. Associating the Singularity with these mythical assistants and opponents mocks the concept of God the Almighty.

The Good Words were articulated via reason and common sense by the ancients. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were attributed to embellished men in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time for a refund!!!!

Cal,

You suggest (pardon me for having to infer, but your thinking is scant here) that somehow one can accept God apart from the teachings of Christ--a common problem among the Republican Right.

During his lifetime, Christ was a revolutionary leader in that he threatened the power of the Romans and their appointed Jewish High Priests in the Holy Land. Witness their mockery of Christ as the "King of the Jews", printed above his head on the cross. This was a mantle they claimed as their own, and including it was a warning to Jews that threatening Roman power in the Holy Land would be punished the same.

Also, how does one get into Heaven without living by Christian principles?

Please respond.

Dr. Martin Luther King said that "religion deals with both heaven and earth... Any religion that professes to be concerned with the souls of men and is not concerned with the slums that doom them, the economic conditions that strangle them, and the social conditions that cripple them, is dry-as-dust religion."

I agree. Saying that people should accept poverty and injustice now and wait for their heavenly reward is a copout. And this line of reasoning is usually provided by the wealthy and the powerful. They speak not primarily as Christians, but as Capitalists.

It is the unstable mixture of Capitalism and Christianity that has always created a vein of hypocrasy in American culture. I'd almost rather us just be honestly and openly exploitive than require ourselves to also swallow this distasteful layer of religiosity.

Every 7 out of 10 lines in the Gospels, Jesus tells me to do things like:

give everything I have to the poor
feed the poor
cloth the downtrodden
heal the sick
love my enemy
visit those in prison

He also instructs me in the following:

blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth
the first will be last and the last first
it is harder for a wealthy man to gain heaven than a camel to fit through the eye of a needle (turret window)
not to critisize my brother while ignoring "the log in my own eye"

He tells me to pray for people once.

To claim that Jesus was not a social revolutionary is to ignore the vast majority of the Gospels. The habit of hand picking a few out of context quotes from non-related sections of the Gospels and then sowing them together as some sort of quilt is not theology.

When I hear people make claims such as Cal, I wonder if we have read the same Bible.

Modern Christians concept of heaven and salvation is unbelievable childish. Salvation means enlightenment, and enlightenment comes from extreme effort. Jesus was a yogi, and probably studied in the East (the wise men from where?). Heaven is simply the absorption into the greatness permeating all. Hell is the concept that you are apart from it (I am currently in hell). The idea that adults convince themselves saying magic words will send them to heaven after they die is sad and absurd, but real discipline can be hard.

Ted Haggard's Boyfriend

Even though I'm not gay, can you get me some Meth? Is that how you fund your liberation theology? That's what the Taliban are doing in Afghanistan with poppies and heroin. If you can't get me any meth, how about some heroin?

Gaby wrote:

"If that is true then I know a whole lot of Christians who'll never make it to their heaven."

That may very well be true; you will get no argument from me on that.

"God didn't command us to do anything. Some long dead people who fabricated the Bible said something to that effect. Not God!"

That is your opinion; unfortunately we don't have absolute proof one way or the other.

Karen,

God didn't command us to do anything. Some long dead people who fabricated the Bible said something to that effect. Not God!

Plus I find it presumptious of Christians to claim that only those believing in Christ will go to heaven (whatever that is supposed to mean). There are more people not believing in Christ than there are believers. Is your religion really condeming all these people to eternal death? Doesn't sound very compassionate to me!

Someone:

"God knows your heart, and the reasons behind the things that you do. "

If that is true then I know a whole lot of Christians who'll never make it to their heaven.

Someone: very true.

Gaby: christians are not terrified about not going to heaven since Jesus told us that if we believe in him we will be there with Him. We do not believe that we can in any way earn our way to Heaven or that we can get there on our own merit. Otherwise, as Paul says in Galatians, Christ died in vain. Faith in Christ takes away all the fear about eternity.
Earning your way is the rule in this world but does not apply to God's kingdom. Whatever we do to help other we do it because it is the right thing to do,out of love for our fellow humans whether they agree with us or not and because God commanded us to do it.

Gaby:

Christians do not believe that works will buy their way into heaven. God knows your heart, and the reasons behind the things that you do. Buying your position with good deeds is the way of the world, not the way of the Lord.

Someone --Well said.

If Jesus Christ has resurrected from the dead, as we Catholics believe, then the the revolution has just begun. He influences everyone whether they credit him for it or not.

Someone:

"For the true believer, those good deeds are usually done because inside you feel that it simply must be done. It is this inner urging that speaks to our spiritual connection to God."

Or is it that believers do good (when they do) they do it because they're terrified of being deprived of going to heaven.

I am a so called non-believer (by religious standards) and when I do something good for other less fortunate it is because it's the HUMANE (not the right thing, feel good, or look good thing)thing to do.

Compassion is not an attribute only for religious people, it's an attribute for the human race. (That is not to say that all humans possess it as clearly marked by history.)

Ted Haggard's Boyfriend (Really?):

Personally, I don't believe it's the Christian's job to convert people. Christians are called to spread the word about Jesus to those who haven't heard, not to try to convince people that their non-Christian ways are wrong.

Certainly anyone can do good deeds, but I think maybe (my opinion) the reason behind it might be a little different depending on your religion or lack of (having a background in both I feel I can speak to both sides). There are many reasons for the non-religious to do good deeds, from it being the "right" thing to do, to it making them feel good, to it making them look good, to it helping someone out - I'm sure there are others. For the true believer, those good deeds are usually done because inside you feel that it simply must be done. It is this inner urging that speaks to our spiritual connection to God.

And yes, there are non-religious people who experience a similar urging to do something to help in situations, or to make a difference somehow. God reaches out to people all the time, and I would suggest that these people have a spiritual connection that they are maybe not quite aware of. :)

Ted Haggart's Boyfriend:
I agree with you, one does not have to be a christian, or religious, to feel a duty to help others. I was merely pointing out that many christians are not just resting on their salvation as some had posted, but are also concerned with social justice and helping the poor. An example of a great non religious organization that I admire a lot is physicians without borders.
You should also know that many christian organizations are busy helping the needy without engaging in evangelism. They do it because they believe that it is God's will to extend a helping hand to all.
A Christian friend of mine who is an OB-GYN spent 3 weeks in Afghanistan in Northern Alliance territory, before the fall of the Taliban, taking care of poor women living in squalid conditions. Because of the language barrier, she most certainly could not evangelize. She spent 3 weeks working 12 hour days serving people she would never see again because she felt that this is how Jesus would have you use her talents.

What a meaningless piece of puffery. Mr. Thomas, you are a commentator, albeit a self-appointed one. So what is your comment? That "A person who engages in political revolution, but dies unredeemed, spends eternity apart from God"? You can no more prove this than walk on water yourself (although you just might be able to do so in your own mind). And I suppose you'll be the one to define what it means to be "redeemed", right?

Are the Sermon on the Mount and The Corporal Works of Mercy too revolutionary for your liking? If so, maybe Jesus isn't the religious figure for you. Perhaps you'd like to read up on Ming the Merciless. Skeletor? You might be happier extolling the virtues of those who are cut from the same cloth as yourself.

Ted Haggard's Boyfriend;

Great name! Excellent! Outstanding!

Jesus was a big commie?
well he probably is. from each according to his abilities, to each according to his need.
sort of sounds like jesus - but if he was distributing the goods, he would not hold back 70% as a handling charge like every communist government does.

Karen, I am aware that their are christians out there that feed the hungry, aid the poor, etc. I admire that greatly. But do we really need to be "conversed" to see that we need to help other people? Do we need to wait be be "transformed" before we do good deeds? Why can't we just help others because it's our moral duty as human beings not because that's what our evangelicals tell us to do?

There are plenty of non-denominational charity groups out there helping others. The difference between them and church groups is that they don't try to convert the people they're helping and treat them like they're inferior.

Luke,

Big fan of Sarah Silverman?

"No, Jesus came to transform the inside, not reform the outside."

Jesus came to spread life.

He certainly came to reform the whole universe. Remember,...thy will be done ON EARTH, as it is in heaven?!

Only time will tell.

I am astounded that the smugness of Mr. Thomas' piece and the smug leer on his face match so perfectly. I do not recall smug being amongst Jesus' characteristics as recorded in the gospels.

Ofcourse Jesus was a revolutionary! Jesus was magic!

The "God Hates America" crowd is equally convinced of its own righteousness as Mr. Thomas is of his. And equally goofy.

Andrea:

Because Cal says, "That's because converted people are not as they used to be, by God's grace," my interpretation is that he means a life that has been changed on the inside.

Someone,

RE: "Conversion"

In which sense is Cal using the word? Words have a tendancy to shift in meaning from their original conotation.

David Ellis:

You are wrong. "Conversion" comes from Latin, meaning "a turning around." People these days have put a negative connotation to the word, but what it actually means is that you have changed the way you live your life, not that you blindly follow something, or that you have simply "heard" a message. It means that your life has actually changed, and that you are a different person on the inside than you used to be. The majority of people just don't use the term "conversion" anymore; more often people use the word "repentance" instead, which means a turning from sin.

NT scholars "take" on the historical Jesus from http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

(note that four of these NT exegetes are members of the On Faith panel)

:Jesus the Myth: Heavenly Christ

Earl Doherty
Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy

Jesus the Myth: Man of the Indefinite Past

Alvar Ellegård
G. A. Wells

Jesus the Hellenistic Hero

Gregory Riley

Jesus the Revolutionary

Robert Eisenman

Jesus the Wisdom Sage

John Dominic Crossan
Robert Funk
Burton Mack
Stephen J. Patterson

Jesus the Man of the Spirit

Marcus Borg
Stevan Davies
Geza Vermes

Jesus the Prophet of Social Change

Richard Horsley
Hyam Maccoby
Gerd Theissen

Jesus the Apocalyptic Prophet

Bart Ehrman
Paula Fredriksen
Gerd Lüdemann
John P. Meier
E. P. Sanders

Jesus the Savior

Luke Timothy Johnson
Robert H. Stein
N. T. Wright

I never agree with Cal and usually vehemently disagree with him which is why I can’t believe I am going to back him… well sort of… well one of the quotes anyway.

I am not sure how Cal meant the words but here is how I choose to interpret them.

“But when the inside is transformed through conversion, that can have a profound effect on the surrounding culture as it has through the three spiritual revivals that have touched America.”

I don’t like the word conversion. That implies I must be part of the club. However Cal’s comment is somewhat correct. My interpretation is if we were to live as spiritual beings versus beings of condition, that would change everything here on earth. Beings of condition means we let our surroundings influence or dictate or our actions. A spiritual being is true to their spirit and thus influences their surroundings. We have proven you can not legislate true change or morality. Great change has always come from within.

Jesus was attacking the root cause, not the symptom.

Any true spiritual leader, Buddha, Gandhi etc, looks to transform the inside. How we live on earth should merely a demonstration of our beliefs. Otherwise if all that matters is the afterlife then we should just sit down and wait for God to provide food. If not his plan was we were to die and he will save me because I believe. That’s boring.

Why did I come here in the first place?

You seem to equate "hearing and receiving" with "conversion". Yes, Christ was a revolutionary from the inside. But to hear, understand and act upon his message is far different from being "converted." There are wonderful people of all faiths who have taken Christ's message to heart. And Christ's teachings were identical to those of Buddha and probably others. But "converion" means brainlessly swallowing all the dogma the Church has fabricated over the years. When Christians blather on about "the Bible says...." what they really mean is "my preacher says......"

Yes, Jesus came to transform the inside, but his message was clear. We must do God's will by attending to the least of us. The wealthy and powerful would rather focus on Salvation and The Eternal Promise because it keeps the masses at bay. Cal Thomas is a tool of the powerful and derives his wealth from them.

Karen:

Excellent points. Thank you for the post.

Anonymous and others, have you actually read the post before slamming Thomas wholeheartdly? I am not a fan of his politics, but take a look at his statement: "when the inside is transformed through conversion, that can have a profound effect on the surrounding culture".
The Bible tells us that we are saved by God's grace onto good works. So no, we do not become believers and then sit on our hands waiting for Jesus to return. How else do you explain christian passion for the abolition of slavery, for feeding the poor and helping the needy? What drove Mother Theresa to the slums of Calcutta? What drives the people who work for World Vision and are often the first ones to appear on the scene of a disaster anywhere in the world? What about all the soup kitchens, employment services, english classes etc run by churches?
We are saved by God's grace through faith but faith without fruits, without works is dead, James tells us.
The Christian right has done a terrible job in presenting christianity to America and to the world because they have become too close to earthly power and have been corrupted by it. Jesus warned us about this when he said that His Kingdom is not of this world and when He said render to Caesar what is to Caesar and what is to God render to God. But let us not throw the baby out with the bath water. There are christians all over the world risking their lives in dangerous places to help the people that Jesus has directed us to help.

He is saying as long as we go to church and pray for our own salvation, we don't need to worry about social justice, aiding the poor and the helpless, giving voice to those who have none, and unequal distribution of wealth.

More than ever, we need Jesus to come down here and eradicate false prophets like Cal.

Cal Thomas is a whitened sepulchre.

How do you sleep at night?

Wow Cal,

Could you get any more vague and pointless?

Yes, Jesus was a social revolutionary and no our society by and large, does not reflect what he stood for.

American Christianity, especially the right-wing version that Cal subscribes to is just another huge corporation more concerned with money and power above all else.

Cal, you had very little to say because deep down you know that you and smug, comfortable old men like you are a part of the problem.

Could you imagine what Cal and his bros. would say if some young, long-haired, bearded dude wearing a robe and sandals waltzed into his church on Sunday morning and started talking about "peace, love and helping the sick and poor above the wealthy, etc., etc..."

Cal, would you embrace such a charater or roll your eyes at "the dirty hippy" and get back to villifying black-err gay people for America's woes?

I think you know the answer.

Big money, unchecked-power and complacency has stalled Christ's revolution.

At least Cal is learning to say nothing of value in fewer and fewer words.

Make this atheist wonder if there is a god after all...

Jesus was a big commie.

Thomas says "A person who has been redeemed by Jesus Christ is more liberated than any government, movement, program, or cause can deliver."

...even if he is enslaved or starves. What a perversion of justice in the name of religion! But religion always has been the ring through the nose of the silly bull, by which to make him obedient for those whose only aim is power. It was like this from the very beginning. Cal Thomas is no exception. God punished Saul for "disobedience", for not slaying EVERY being in the ordered genocide. Can't these people ever wake up from their dreams?

Did you know: that the word gospel means "Good News". that when Jesus was born the Angels announced to the world that this was Good News for all people and Peace to whom God's favor rests which happens to be two distinct messages think about it. that Jesus asked us to forgive everybody for everything an infinite number of times, do you think that God asked us to be more forgiving than God Himself think about it. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Unlike today's Christian Right, Jesus fought against the powerful people and stood up for the despised. He chased the money changers from the temple, American Christians invite MacDonald's franchises to set up shop in their churches and urge their congregations to vote for the corporatist party and oppose rights for gays and women.

You have become the Pharisees.

So exactly how does the "saved" person approach questions of justice or law any differently from an unsaved one? How about capital punishment? Does the Christian believe in unbound mercy, humility, or charity? How about warefare? No, it does not appear that it confers any consistent doctrine. Social consensus requires agreeing on things that go beyond specific faiths or revelations. WWJD gets you only so far. After all, He was not very good at PR with the Pharisees or Romans.