Faith in God, Not Man

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"Speaking of simplistic, are you saying that God should become an active participant during war? Should He reach down from Heaven and end the bloodshed before it begins? If that's true, then where does it stop? Should God inflict you with disease when you lie or cheat? Should He castrate you when you look lustfully at another woman? Or maybe God can grant free will when you decide?"

This is exactly my point: Christians claim that there is a loving deity running the universe, yet when faced with the far more concrete, and actually verifiable, existence of evil, and war, and sundry forms of suffering, they revert to the "but God gives us free will..." God is perfect, but is somehow able to allow "free will" that causes pain, and suffering? And somehow created the capability for evil that exists in the first place? So, congratulations; your rhetorical question illustrates precisely why I, at least, have chosen to live by other than the mindgames and inane assumptions of an ancient book of riddles.

That aside, I have to say, quite the sadistic view of this God you seem to have -- mutilating people for exercising their sexuality? Inflicting them with illness for cheating on an exam? Then again, given the depiction of God in the Bible, neither seems particularly out of character...

Benjamin Haag

"Speaking of simplistic, are you saying that God should become an active participant during war? Should He reach down from Heaven and end the bloodshed before it begins? If that's true, then where does it stop? Should God inflict you with disease when you lie or cheat? Should He castrate you when you look lustfully at another woman? Or maybe God can grant free will when you decide?"

This is exactly my point: Christians claim that there is a loving deity running the universe, yet when faced with the far more concrete, and actually verifiable, existence of evil, and war, and sundry forms of suffering, they revert to the "but God gives us free will..." God is perfect, but is somehow able to allow "free will" that causes pain, and suffering? And somehow created the capability for evil that exists in the first place? So, congratulations; your rhetorical question illustrates precisely why I, at least, have chosen to live by other than the mindgames and inane assumptions of an ancient book of riddles.

That aside, I have to say, quite the sadistic view of this God you seem to have -- mutilating people for exercising their sexuality? Inflicting them with illness for cheating on an exam? Then again, given the depiction of God in the Bible, neither seems particularly out of character...

Benjamin Haag

What was it that our President said about waging war?...something like "God told me to do it"? Is he Lutheran?

Yvonne Taylor

Terra:

Our corn just came in. And our community is gathering to eat together, discuss this years weather and this strange bee crisis (big topic as one of my neighbors has lost two thirds of his hives).

We are a Christian community and as a matter of choice we eat what is grown locally and in season. It is comforting and gives life purpose to live close to the land and aware of the seasons and cycles of the moon.

This generation is lost in abundance with no meaning. No wonder there is an epidemic of children overweight and on antidepressants.

Thanks for the poem. Here's another:

The world is charged with the grandeur of God.
It will flame out, like shining from shook foil;
It gathers to a greatness, like the ooze of oil
Crushed. Why do men then now not reck his rod?
Generations have trod, have trod, have trod;
And all is seared with trade; Bleared, smeared with toil;
And wears man's smudge and shares man's smell: the soil
Is bare now, nor can foot feel, being shod.

And for all this, nature is never spent;
There lives the dearest freshness deep down things;
And though the last lights off the black West went
Oh, morning, at the brown brink eastward, springs--
Because the Holy Ghost over the bent
World broods with warm breast and with ah! bright wings.

Green wannabe,
Sorry, yes my ID is Earth, I am Wiccan so do have an affinity with Nature.

I agree, everyone that breathes this air and takes up space on this planet owes this ball of life a chance. Giving Her a chance we give the future a chance.

Dance of the Mother
By angel

Her lovely gown of blue with white has changed to a hue of boiling black
Her beats upon the talking drum
Have warned her children to clear the floor
For the Elemental Dance about to come.
She sets the mood with rolling waves of brilliant light
The dance begins with darting, twisting streaks of fire
Leaping to and fro in a grander display of destructive force.
Resources to fill an artillery commander’s heart with desire.
Water’s dance begins with large splattering drops falling with individual grace
With quickening pace the droplets ebb and flow.
As they collect on the ground, they twist and swirl
Into quick little eddies that introduce twigs and leaves to the show.
Air enters stage right with a flair
Boughs and branches leap and bend
Raindrops form a horizontal curtain
Driven by the force of the wind.
As fire, water and air exit stage left
The flowers leap into view
Birds, bees, butterflies and the balance of Mother’s wild ones
Dart and scamper about as Earth’s dance begins on que.
angel ©july 1997
Petals & Thorns poetry by angel © 1993 - 1999

Faith, war and realism revisited:

Gators vs Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?

And, for the record, 'millions of people believing like Cal' *is* a scary thought, once you've been subjected firsthand to what these types are willing to gloss over in a 'righteous name.'

But if any of this means you *can't* be 'my brother,'

We've all lost.

Ok, here:

" WHAT?:

>>I'd say, as long as you *think* humanity is 'fallen' and in need of controlling, that people will continually fight over who controls what.

As long as you *think* (think?????..........think????)
...the other will happen??

oh brother...sorry, folks but you might as well debate your teenager...would be the same as someone who presents bunk like this."

Ok, for one, you may call me 'sister,' if you would like to see me as a human at all...

Would you like to see some humans in this world?

Ecce.

But, yes, if you can only *see* the result of *what you think* in terms of 'war,' then, 'war' you will get.

Every single fricking time.

Would you like to be *my* brother, sir?

*tapping forehead.*

Look at me.

You may see what you like, *brother.*

But if you would be my brother, look at me.

That's all that is.

"Now there's a scary thought."

Gee Hermit. you're engaging in unreasoning fear..

Davsie says: "There are millions of Christians that believe the same as Cal..."

Now there's a scary thought...>;-}

Terra:

I figured since your screename means EARTH you would have an affection for nature.

We live on a farm that has been in my family for seven generations and has been completely organic since the 70s. I am proud of my family and their stewardship of the earth. Many of the oaks on our land have been standing through all our generations. My grandmother was a botanist and as a child she would teach me the latin names and properties of plants, have me make plantings and explain the balance they would bring as they filled an area in.

I do feel its time every American -of any or no faith -take responsibility for his own energy consumption and learn to conserve.

Green Wannabe,

I use a broom to sweep with...don't you? ; )

I am a Witch...you have any idea what that means? It means we have been green while others were buying gas guzzlers. It means that we have been hugging and protecting nature while others were logging the rain forest and allowing the top soil to be washed away, as well as helping a great number of herbal cures of disease to become extinct. It means we were fighting to protect species while others were killing dolphins along with the tuna...it means that we honor all life and want to preserve it.

What I was talking about with Cal Thomas being simplistic is that the policies of this nation in the middle east is what causes the probelms that led to osama and the killing on 9-11. Having American bases on what Muslims feel is sacred ground...is not making friends and influencing people...then grabbing oil from the people that owned the resources useing greed of the powerful...backing saddam with weapons and shaking his hand after he killed the Kurds with weapons we gave him...then killing him for just that act...Hypocrites. Add us backing Osama in training him and his men so that they could fight the Russians in Afghanistan for us. We are our own worse enemies...and totally stupid. And saying it is just oil is as simplistic...

I grow my own veggies...herbs and everyone here on our little country road never goes to town without seeing if anyone needs something. Saving gas and expence for everyone.

We use energy saving light bulbs...we save where we can...
It is part of my religion to care for Mother Earth...and as an American i do not want my nation being the enemy of life.

Danny B in Detroit:

New neighbors in the fall.

"Detroit expects half of Iraqi refugees"

"Immigration aid workers here expect that as many as half of the nearly 7,000 Iraqi refugees who will be brought into the United States by the end of September will settle in the area."

I hope there are no sunni/shia altercations for you. During the Bosnian War my community took in refugees -who brought their arguments with them..

You know, Terra,

Oil consumption is a problem. You may zip around on a broom : ) -but the rest of us have to deal with our energy needs.

I drive an older Toyota converted to propane. Its no answer. I'm just making a statement about where my energy dollar goes.

But every time every American stops to fill up, they should feel the weight of their action and be seeking some workable alternative.

Davisie,

But everyone has the right to post their opinions...

Cal Thomas and those who think like him are simplistic. They think all things are either black or white....when most things are in shades of gray. It is easy to think in black or white, it takes so much less thought. You can just run down the list what is right and what is wrong and viola! So easy and who cares that it leads to authortarian society...who needs freedom it is so 1776.

Susan Jacoby says there is religion because people are so afraid of death...I'm not..I see it as another journey and another way of being. I love this life, it is a journey of mystery....but there are other mysteries to discover.

Cal Thomas says there are wars because of greed...yet he was all for the war in Iraq...oil anyone?

Simplistic views do not solve human problems or understand human fraility.

terra

Doug-

"Every piece of commentary you post on this site is completely meaningless to everyone but you."

do you speak for all humanity? There are millions of Christians that believe the same as Cal

If all you can do is call people names and assume that everyone believes as you do, it is obvious that you have not gotten out much beyond your keyboard,or even bothered to consider the positive impact Christ has had in people's lives.
Blockhead indeed.

>>I'd say, as long as you *think* humanity is 'fallen' and in need of controlling, that people will continually fight over who controls what.

As long as you *think* (think?????..........think????)
...the other will happen??

oh brother...sorry, folks but you might as well debate your teenager...would be the same as someone who presents bunk like this.

Religion= glorified superstition...my god is better then your god and I'll break your skull so you'll believe it...same old same old for centuries...god didn't create us; we created god & why? Because we needed to in order to substitute "It was god's will" for a clear look at our own stupidities & fu*k ups...

Religion= glorified superstition...my god is better then your god and I'll break your skull so you'll believe it...same old same old for centuries...god didn't create us; we created god & why? Because we needed to in order to substitute "It was god's will" for a clear look at our own stupidities & fu*k ups...

In his column of April 15, 2003, Cal Thomas wrote:

When the Berlin Wall fell and Eastern Europe escaped from the shackles of communism, I wrote that we must not forget the enablers, apologists and other "fellow travelers" who helped sustain communism's grip on a sizable portion of humanity for much of the 20th century. I suggested that a "cultural war crimes tribunal" be convened, at which people from academia, the media, government and the clergy who were wrong in their assessment of communism would be forced to confront their mistakes. While not wishing to deprive anyone of his or her right to be wrong, it wouldn't hurt for these people to be held accountable.

That advice was not taken - but today we are presented with another opportunity in the form of scores of false media prophets who predicted disaster should the U.S. military confront and seek to oust the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. The purpose of a cultural war crimes tribunal would be to remind the public of journalism's many mistakes, as well as the errors of certain politicians and retired generals, and allow it to properly judge their words the next time they feel the urge to prophesy...

All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an opportunity to recant and repent.

-------------
Cal have you repented yet? and do you think that those warriors comeing home sans legs or arms, with damaged brains and damaged lives gives a flying fig if you and the rest of you chickenhawks are right with god?

Wisdom is never having to fight because you can look ahead and not only that, but put yourself in that other man's place. Cal, maybe a little empethetic thought would do you better then all the bible quotes in the world.

terra

Doug,

You did it! An 8-line paragraph that offers nothing but derogatory adjectives and repetitive thinking. I'm in awe that you were able to put enough words together to fill 8 lines without offering a single, original, constructive thought or idea. Bravo!

Hermit,

I appreciate your pacifism, but honestly, I don't think that would've helped us very much during the Revolutionary War or WWII.

Ben Haag,

Speaking of simplistic, are you saying that God should become an active participant during war? Should He reach down from Heaven and end the bloodshed before it begins? If that's true, then where does it stop? Should God inflict you with disease when you lie or cheat? Should He castrate you when you look lustfully at another woman? Or maybe God can grant free will when you decide?

With all due respect to Mr. Thomas, his is a stunningly simplistic perspective.

Ignoring the premise that humankind is "fallen" (a key and I think, perhaps cynically, useful tenet of the form of Christianity that I assume Mr. Thomas espouses), I would have a hard time worshipping, rather than loathing, a deity that stands aloof from the utter horror of the wars of the past, oh, couple of centuries or so, until he magnanimously decides to return to earth to make it all better. Or is Mr. Thomas contending that the Holocaust, Pol Pot's regime, the slaughter on and since 9/11, are part of some massive character-building exercise for humankind?

Gators vs Muslims??? Gators definitely will kill. Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual can we trust any of them?

AMEN Brother!!!

I get so sick of hearing national "religious" leaders like Fellwell (RIH*), Robertson, et al. praise this stupid Iraq war. Christianity is ABOUT PEACE, NOT WAR.

What's worse is that Bush has developed some kind of a Messiah complex, and he thinks he truly is doing the work of God. Reality shows that he's doing the work of that other deity -- the one down south who Falwell is currently hanging with.

I look forward to the day when a REAL Christian once again presides over the country. The guy in the Oval Office now is nothing more than a lying, evil fraud of a human being.

* = Rot in H*LL. Burn, Baby Burn Herr Falwell!!

Cal, it is hard to fathom how you can store all of those circular arguments inside that blockhead of yours. Every piece of commentary you post on this site is completely meaningless to everyone but you. If it should ever occur to you to write something of value to anyone who is not a syndicated columnist named Cal Thomas, maybe try writing about how you arrived at your beliefs. You know, provide some actual insight. You state everything as a given and present yourself as some kind of brown-nosing cherub for having accepted the truth, thus implying that the rest of humanity is ignorantly crawling around in the muck and slime. You ain't doing Jesus Christ any favors acting this way, pal. Get over yourself.

I love the quote Cal uses:

"What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don't they come from your desires that battle within you? You want something but don't get it. You kill and covet, but you cannot have what you want. You quarrel and fight..." (James 4:1-2)

So much insight into humanity in the Bible.

I too will always be pro-peace. It comes from my atheism,and from watching religious people take down the WTC on 9/11 (among other things).
Surely the day will come when Faith is seen
not just as simple minded wishful thinking,
but as the most insidious and dangerous force
out there.
It really is quite terrifying.

There goes Calvin Pharisee again!

Peace happens one person at a time. It happens every time someone takes Christ as their savior and makes peace with God. Cal is right, this is the only peace that matters.

Gaby: Good to see you too, hope you're well. Yes, I'll always be pro-peace. To be honest that probably comes as much from my religious upbringing in the pacifist Mennonite church as from any humanist leanings; that might help explain why I'm able to maintain a positive view of people of faith even if I no longer share that faith. It isn't all the way Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens paint it.

Conquest is a God given right for the stronger to overpower the weaker and take all they have including their lives. Name a patch of land anywhere on earth that did not get into the hands of it's present occupants by means other than, "By right of conquest."

The Bible is first a hoax so quoting from it and pure conjecture are equally valid. The passages referenced by Mr Thomas certifoes that the Devil and not God was behind it's creation. "The big bucks go to those who lead the multitudes to hell." Yep, larceny is behind wars and can be summed "by right of conquest."

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is the more reasonable interpretation of the Bible. Exodus is actually the story of how Devil helps those who lead the multitudes to His kingdom, hell. God said, "let there be light" and there was light. The "God of your (Moses) father..." had to use trickery and murder to get His chosen people out of Egypt, made them walk to Cannan and they only got as far as Judah. Sad sack of a God if you ask me. The Devil made Moses do that.

Interesting trivia: WW1 German soldiers had "God is with us" stamped into their belt buckles.

Your point, Anonymous?

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, here.

Are you trying to blame Muslims for a population decline?

Detroit and surrounding area being the kind of city it is, (having gotten *big* through industry,) the population will have gone down cause American corporations shortsightedly shipped the jobs overseas... the city's had a bad rep as lack of prosperity brought a lot of social problems, too, but this isn't too surprising. It's been going on a really long time, to my understanding.

I do live in Detroit, and was born here. As to that specific statistic, I don't know. I do seem to recall that as of the 2000 census the city itself fell just under one million, and it affected government allocations. Wayne county though is much larger than just the city. I believe the "metro area" population is three million.

In my travels, when I have told people I meet that I am from Detroit they usually comment on the crime because that just seems to be the reputation. I can tell you though, that I've been to other cities that scared me more, and that there is a lot more to this city than that.

Also, I was only pointing out that there are a lot of Muslims here to indicate that I have some frame of reference for what I was talking about above. That the "all Muslims are terrorists" ranting that goes on here is just a sweeping generalization. I've been around enough Muslims to know that it's just not true.

Just like I know, from having lived in Florida, that skark attacks are less common than someone might think if all they knew about them was what is on the news. Gator attacks too.

That's what happens when we stay in our little cocoons and PRESUME to know what happens outside them.

Everyone in Florida is being attacked by sharks and gators!

You'll be killed if you go to Detriot!

All Muslims are terrorists!

See how easy (but so wrong) that can be?

Danny B:

"There are an awful lot of Muslims here in Detroit"

Do you live in Detroit? Is this true?

"Wayne County, Michigan, lost more than 89,000 residents from 2000 to 2006 – a loss of 4 percent of the county's 2 million residents."

The 9/11 Muslims were easy also easy to find. Unfortunately we left them fly on our airplanes!!!

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated, why are you so afraid? America used to be the land of the brave, a place where people said things like "Give me Liberty or give me death." Now it seems to be populated by people like you who run around whimpering "be afraid, be afraid."

My advice to you is to get to know a few of those 1.2 billion Muslims who aren't terrorists. They're not that hard to find....

Gaby,

I couldn't agree more when you post:

So, Concerned, please do us all a favor, live in reality, not preconceived perceptions. I don't know if you ever lived outside the US, but to me you sound like southern redneck who never left his state, much less wandered the globe.

So obvious!

As to what you said about your mother's landlord and neighbors, I agree with that too. There are an awful lot of Muslims here in Detroit (the largest concentration of Middle Eastern people outside the Middle East), and I have never seen them as anything other than neighbors who belong to a different religion than me. And I have never been given a reason to think otherwise.

I can actually speak to that from personal experience.

As far as the Frank Collins-es and Concerneds go...God Bless America where we are even free to be ignorant, and proud of it! No matter how distasteful it is.

1.2 billion Muslims in the world. Why? Because they were born Muslims and don't know any better. Lose their faith because of war? Of course not, war is part of their "koranic" faith. "Death to unbelievers" being their battle cry!!!!!!

Hermit,

Good to see you again! Hope you'll always be a "peacenicker"!!! IT (god-like wingy thingy) only knows what a "Goreite" is, unless of course that's a phrase made up by our local curmudgeon (Concerned......)

Concerned,

I have no idea why you keep harping on the Islamists. It totally eludes me. Muslims are everywhere and they are not all the scum of the earth you think they are. My mother rents an apartment from a Muslim Turk, he treats her well and with respect. There are many Turks who bought housing all around her and she has no problems.

Get on with it already. I have told you before, and am telling you again, fundamentalists in any religion are despicable especially when they try to mesh religion with politics. You always focus on the Middle East, maybe you should shift your focus to the western world.

Jerry Falwell, although he is dead now (thankfully?), was no different than the Mullahs of Islam extremism. He preached nothing but hatred and tried to influence American politics, with some success I might say.

So, Concerned, please do us all a favor, live in reality, not preconceived perceptions. I don't know if you ever lived outside the US, but to me you sound like southern redneck who never left his state, much less wandered the globe.

We peacenickers? !!! hahahahahaha
You mean a peacenik, like Jesus was?

What wars would Jesus cheer for?

Peace is a CHOICE, not an end.
We choose war, we are the evil.
Who chooses peace? It Ain't our side guys !!

Q: What does Cal get his after the pearly gates? When he enters his heaven, where he can get his , wait, how many virgins? Oh wait that's the other guys right? What do you get in your heaven Cal? harps and the sunburn from gazing at jesus?)

Are there onus points in heaven for conquest?
No thats just for how many souls you can "ahem, save", right?

Nature bless the USA for keeping people like yall irrelevant.

A Hermit aka "Goreite",

The reality of it all: If your "peacenickers" were in charge, we would all be yelling God/Mohammed the Hallucinator are Great in a "freedomless" world.

My Faith in Reality remains strong. God bless the USA for keeping it that way.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

I posted a long response to your delusional list in the comments of Susan Jacoby's post. Suffice it to say your faith here is misplaced, and most of the the "realities" you cite are, in fact, illusions.

I hope to live to see the day when uttering the self-loathing phrase, "fallen nature," prompts spontaneous torrents of laughing ridicule.

This is the 21st century, Cal. Your Bronze Aged-fear of the dark is risible. Please stop.

The specifics !!

How goes the War on Terror?

1. Saddam, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD was one of his major mistakes.

2. Iran (a member of the Axis of Evil) has been contained. (besides fighting the civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq. And yes oil continues to flow from the region.)

3. Libya has become civil.

4. North Korea ( another member of the Axis of Evil) is still uncivil but is contained.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace. (Thanks to the Patriot Act that stopped the foreign funding of the IRA).

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls (analogous to the two Czech republics). Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace.

8. And the stock markets and economies around the globe continue to show good growth and opportunity for the common stock holders thanks to the free flow of energy supplies.

So George and his guys and gals have not been perfect but there are some major accomplishments.

Bill Clinton and his crew definitely had their accomplishments but were not "pretty wingie talking thingies" either.

Conclusion: My Faith in Realism and the USA continues strong.

I think setting religious beliefs *between* ourselves and peace makes us *lack* the faith in *humanity* we need to lay aside the differences and act responsibly.

Particularly when those differences ...and the horrors and injustices that feed upon each other, are *propped up* by conflicting beliefs about who needs to *take over* in order for peace to be magically-granted from outside. (later.)

I'd say, as long as you *think* humanity is 'fallen' and in need of controlling, that people will continually fight over who controls what.