(Really) Repent and Be Forgiven

Cindy,
yes I am linaged. I am Witch and Wiccan...but then in my trad they are the same...the younger set thinks them different.

E Favorite,
We do not have a hell, nor a devil... We have self responcibility and karma. It is a religion that makes you think, you decide. There are no laws laid out as "thou shalt nots". It is principles that you have to set and live by...like honor. How you live with honor is up to you..you do have free will. Life is full of choices and you have to choose how you want to live according to the ethics and principles you adopt. Enlightenment is the goal...not to be rewarded after you die..but how you live in the now.

terra

PS...I really need to spell check before I click send.
Sketch not scetch..sheesh!

terra

I worship the Lady and Lord...To me worshipping just the Goddess is just as unbalanced as only worshipping a male god.

Magick is a tool, but our foundation is the Gods.We are structured, we do have a hierarchy. But we are ecclectic in that we are democratic, not like the Hard Guards. We are based on Blue Star with some growth changes. We are there for the people...not the other way around.
Here is our website-
www.wisteria-tradition.com
click the Lady...lol.

Yes there are many trads as far as Wicca goes. But they are different mainly in the cosmetics, except for the Dianics...then they do have a affiliated trad that is God and Goddess centered.

I think the mainline description of supernatural is very mistaken. They think of the fairy tales instead of the real that is part of the natural energies. But they are not at fault... they only know what they have been told what supernatural means; something out of the natural, something made up.

Alot of what Witches believe is now called quantum physics...I am so excited about the String Theory! It explains so much of what we have always believed. Is it supernatural now? no its science. lol. Like hundreds of years ago Leonardo scetched a helocopter, a submarine, and many other things that are everyday now...they were fantasy then...

Blessings,
terra

Terra Gazelle:

I understand you are a Wiccan. There is so much that people don't know about Wiccans because there are many different types. I was curious as to what type of Wiccan you are. Do you practice Dianic Wicca, which worships only the Goddess? Do you believe that the gods are able to manifest in personal form? Are you more of a lineaged Wiccan who performs magic, or more eclectic and less structured?

There are so many different types of Wiccans, that just saying Wiccan leaves many questions unanswered. It's like someone saying "I don't believe in the supernatural, so I would like to be a Pagan." That person has absolutely no idea what they just said!

Well Cal, you did not answer the question. The question asked about the relationship between repentance and forgiveness. You talked only about being repentent. That may be good for one's soul but I have to wonder what has happened to forgiveness. I think it has disappeared more than repentence. Maybe its our culture that likes to pile on those who have been shown to be hipocritical or made seriously poor choices. Late night TV is full of this piling on. And I include you Cal in those who show a lack of forgiveness to others. For that I forgive you.

Terra - I like that - "take you back to the source" -- not to some fairy tale land or to the depths of hell.

E. Favorite,
I think that people think that religion is only one thing. The word religion means to take you back to the source...it does not say what that source is,or how you get there.
To me that source is what is behind creation...what caused the big bang, what caused the womb that was the early oceans, what caused the first life appear in that oceanic womb. Why does being in nature bring such peace and happiness? Is that the Source? To me it is.

I think that all life carries the DNA of it's creator, just as we carry the DNA of our birth parents. Each tree and sqirrel, each grain of sand and river holds energy, and the birth of that energy comes from the Source. We are One, as we all come from the same place, born from the same source...

God does not have to be the old testiment god of jealousy and killing...it does not have to be one of stern judgeing and fear. Find what way takes you to joy and living in a way that you are loving life in all parts of it.

As a little kid I talked to the water sprites in the creek that ran by our house. Was that a kid's imagination? I don't know, as a grown up I had to wonder if it was a dream. They might have been the energies of that creek. All I know is that my chats with them gave me great pleasure and left me with a feeling of being given a gift.

So my faith is also a gift, one I have been blessed to find. I wish everyone to find that which makes them walk in joy each day. The less people are sad and spreading misery, the better.

Blessings,
terra

Russell,
My reply is in Starhawk's Page. I think you might be interested in some experiments that have been done. It was with what is called Kirlian photography...is the aura that people sense or see part of your energy, or your ethric body?

terra

Russell D - Yes - I notice energy - have a pretty good nose for it, I think, though some of it is hard to miss -e.g. people with incredible sex appeal, charisma -- or both!

Also related are intuition, gut reaction and first impressions. While I think some people are better at it than others, I think we all have it and some people just know how to pay attention to it.

I notice it a lot going into different offices, too. Easy to tell which ones are terrible places to work.

Let me give this some more thought.

Terra and E-Favorite:

This may be more for you, and I'd like your opinion on it, as well as any others who would like to offer it, but I thought this might be interesting.

I don't really claim a religion, and I am not a big spiritual person, yet I have always had a belief in the Energy of things. I can feel it in things, and especially, I can feel it in people. Ever notice how some people seem to have a presence about them or an inner fire? I believe it boils down to that person's personal energy. Some have more, and some have less. I have been told that I have this strong energy, and I notice it in other people, such as my third child(and she's only a baby), my wife, and other people I come in contact with. This energy is what other people respond to. It has always fascinated me and I was just wondering what you guys thought about it. I'd love to hear all thoughts on it. and I will post this On Starhawk's post also. Thanks guys!

Terra gazelle -

Thanks for that.

If I were going to have a religion, I think I'd be a Pagan. Nature provides more than the supernatural ever could.

E Favorite,

You say ditch the supernatural. Super Natural. Ultra Natural...In all Nature.

I speak for myself only, my thoughts, and not all Pagans.

ok I may rapt poetic.
When I go out under the dark sky that is lit with a full moon, I hear the night sounds...the owls and the wind through the trees...I take a deep breath and I know God. Ok not the Christian God...not the god of the bible. But what I call God, Goddess, The All. It is the life force behind all life, it is in the wind, the leaves, the grass and the breath I take.

I stand under that moon and I know that from the beginning of time there had been women that have stood under that same moon, taken that deep breath and felt that connection to All.

Our senses took in all the smells, sounds, the trees that are touched by silver by the moonlight, the feel of the night on every inch of skin. That all is god. Supernatural? Yes...it is super and it is natural, and I am connected as a web to all of it.

I have a room dedicated to my religious pratice. It is set aside for the sacred...I do not wear shoes in that room, it is used for worship and meditation...incense is burned...nag champa, candles lit and music used. It is a room where when you walk in you are instantly calmed. It is like a place outside of my house, no noise of dogs and cats, a husband, TV and just the noices of living. It is quieter, like noise is sofened, thoughts are soothed. People have gone in there and said, they could lay down and sleep. It is a place where the mundain is seperate.

In that room am again worshipping that entity God/goddess, that balance that is all things...it is no old man in the sky with a big book of judgement, it is no pointing finger saying what is sin and what is allowed. It is something that says that what furthers life is good and what brings harm to it and causes life to disrespect itself is bad.

That is my god. And I see it in all things in the universe.

Blessed be...

Terra, - Absolutely! “The subconscious needs more then words, it does not understand words. It understands symbols and things of the emotion..color, scent, sound.. that is what uplifts the soul."

I think that's what's made Catholicism so successful over the centuries. I’m all for keeping the timeless color, scent and sound and ditching the outdated supernatural beliefs.

Ritual talks to the soul. Today so many churches look like garages, like god was needing a lube job. There is no beauty, no incense floating up to give essence to the prayers, no soaring music to enliven the heart...no taste of paradise with the colored light from the stained glass windows to paint the floor between the pews.

There is not that silence filled with expectation of god. Instead there is blue jeans and thoughts of getting home for the football game.

Where is the sacred? What seperates the mundain from the sacred? Do you go before your god not with your best, but with your "good enough"?

The subconscious needs more then words, it does not understand words. It understands symbols and things of the emotion..color, scent, sound.. that is what uplifts the soul.

terra

Deb - I've seen people in the Catholic church I grew up in wearing shorts and flip-flops. Don't know how Jesus felt, but I found it quite unattractive - like showing up that way for a wedding or a night at the theatre. Getting dressed up is a way of saying church is special.

I think that the ritual of the Catholic church derived from Roman rituals. People love rituals and use them in all sorts of situations (like half-time shows at football games). I suppose even evangelical churches have some typical routines - just not involving satin robes and funny hats and incense.

I'll tell you what, if you ever get back to basics, the way they did it in biblical times, you're going to have to get rid of the rock band and the sound system - and probably the shouting.

Communion Wine Hats?

Deb: Your church sounds like mine. We avoid the camo shorts in the winter though (because its too cold outside) :)

I can't imagine going to a church where you feel out of place by not dressing up a certain way. Or should I say "going back to a church...". I remember battling my parents as a kid to wear jeans to church back in the day. Jesus doesn't care about anybodys suit and tie.

"I believe the Baptists believe that being baptized washes away your sins and is the act that "saves" you"

I think a few may believe that. Most don't.

Deb,

What about Communion? Can we wear Communion Wine hats?

They don't allow food or beverages in the worship area... otherwise everyone would be chowing in there during the service!

Ok, well, as long as you're not actually drinking the beer during the service, and you use a little mouthwash, you should be good to go. lol.

I will be after I finish the beer

LOL

Uhhhhh, only if you're involved in a skit during the service. :)

Can I bring a beer dispensing hat?

Russell,

I see at least one person in camo shorts and flip flops every week at my church!

Seems that way, doesn't it.

Russell,

I understand that a lot of these traditions are centuries old, and people are so used to growing up doing and seeing things done a certain way. But I think these days, more and more, people are starting to take a closer look at why some of these things are done, and what purpose they serve. Are they being done for God's sake, or for ours? Is this the way Christ taught us to worship, or did it serve some other purpose? Did it take our minds off of what was important - worshipping God, and instead make us become preoccupied with "the law" of religion?

Deb:

Yea, I never understood all the formality that comes with going to church. If I want, I should be able to go in a pair of camouflage shorts and flip flops dangit! The lord ain't gonna care what you look like, only what you are there for. Why all the emphasis on in being so proper?

E Favorite:

There is a lot about Catholicism that I don't agree with. I couldn't say scrap it all, but it seems to me that there is a lot about it that doesn't seem biblical, or rather seems to be a twisting of biblical teaching. That is taken as a matter of opinion, and therein lies a major split between Catholics and Protestants. Although some things are followed by other denominations as well. I believe the Baptists believe that being baptized washes away your sins and is the act that "saves" you.

I guess the thing that bothers me the most is all of the "pomp and cirmumstance". That was never meant to be a part of Christianity; never. All of the ritual and blessing with "holy" water and incense and kneeling and standing and incantations and wearing of specific garments. To what end? Is all of that glorifying God? Is that giving praise to the Lord? Or should you just wear your regular clothes and maybe sing some songs that everyone understands and talk about how the things you do every day are a reflection of the type of person you are, and pray to God for some guidance and understanding?

Whoa, did I just say all of that?

Maybe the problem with Christian education is that we spend too much time and energy arguing about whose "brand" is the correct one, implying that every other denomination or church community must be incorrect. Most of the so-called nondenominational churches are the worst, led by charismatic pastors who answer to no one. The multiplicity of churches arose because of abuse of authority, and the idea that sheep in a different field might be well-tended makes the would-be monopolists of monotheism nervous.

And for your penance, say three Our Fathers and sin no more!!!

To Cal Thomas: You quoted King David, "Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight." (Psalm 51:4).

If David really said that, he was dead wrong. The evil he did was against Bathsheba and her husband. He should have been asking her for forgiveness (too late for the husband). Perhaps you are one of the Christians who reserves the word "sin" for an action that offends God, in which case David did not "sin" against Bathsheba and her husband, but he most certainly did them evil. He should have sought forgiveness from the people he wronged. And we should do likewise.

Deb - are you sure you not talking about Catholics? "celibacy of priests, the papacy, forced conversion and murder of non-believers, refusals of mixed-religion marriages, baptism as a cleansing of sins, drinking alcohol as sin, worship of saints..."

Everything but drinking of alcohol applies to Catholics. This I know, because the priest who was looking in on my obstreperous mother suggested I calm myself with a nice glass of pino grigio.

I prefer caberet.

Back on topic - sounds like getting back to christian roots means getting rid of catholism, right?

Mr Mark,

Not beer with communion, silly. Though...what an idea! I was also raised Lutheran..beer aplenty at after church events (receptions, baptisms, the like) but that may have more to do with the German aspect of it...

Deb,

Funny you brought up Soylent Green. My fiancee brought that movie home from the library two days ago.

And, see, you're joining in with this side conversation. You should apologize to me for telling me to apologize! Look, mistakes were made. I am sorry you were offended. I take full responsibility.

Bummer.... Bobby "Boris" Pickett died.

"He did the Mash.... He did the Monster Mash."

69 years old - of leukemia.

Andrea wrote:

"You want beer with your religion? Try Lutheranism."

Hey, I was brought up Lutheran, and there was NO WAY that beer was served at communion. We had wine, just like everyone else!

Of course, we also had seconds... :)

Andrea,

You want obscure? Here ya go:

"Soylent Green is People!"

Mr. Mark,

Sangria and nachos - that's funny! and delicious. Now I want to go out for Mexican food tonight!

Russell,

You want beer with your religion? Try Lutheranism.

Beetlejuice Beetlejuice Beetlejuice

I know it's not a scary movie, but it still creeps me out

Deb,

Well, then I won't apologize because I won't mean it. We're nerds. We like quoting obscure crap ;)

Ok then, party at my place. Deb brings the wine, Andrea brings the beer, and Mr. Mark brings the nachos.

And I'll have Luke bring the strippers-er, other guests.

We can all drink and laugh at the 700 Club.

Russell:

Seriously, they drank wine all throughout the bible. Even Jesus drank wine. It doesn't say in the bible anywhere "don't drink alcohol"; but it does say "don't get drunk." ;)

Russell D. wrote:
"Religion with no BEER? WTF? Yea, count me out............

"Sometimes the best way to listen to someone preach is when you are plastered."

Yep. Even Jesus got the boys' going with sangria & nachos...

Andrea, Russell:

Ok you two, I think you'd better both apologize, and really mean it, so we can all forgive you and get back on topic! :)

No empty apologies, we want full repentance! lol!

Religion with no BEER? WTF? Yea, count me out............

Sometimes the best way to listen to someone preach is when you are plastered.

One, Two, he's coming for you

Three, Four, better lock your door

Russell,

Have you checked the children?

Here's Cal Thomas on April 15, 2003:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/tom-tomorrow/what-they-said_b_46907.html

"When the Berlin Wall fell and Eastern Europe escaped from the shackles of communism, I wrote that we must not forget the enablers, apologists and other "fellow travelers" who helped sustain communism's grip on a sizable portion of humanity for much of the 20th century. I suggested that a "cultural war crimes tribunal" be convened, at which people from academia, the media, government and the clergy who were wrong in their assessment of communism would be forced to confront their mistakes. While not wishing to deprive anyone of his or her right to be wrong, it wouldn't hurt for these people to be held accountable.

That advice was not taken - but today we are presented with another opportunity in the form of scores of false media prophets who predicted disaster should the U.S. military confront and seek to oust the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. The purpose of a cultural war crimes tribunal would be to remind the public of journalism's many mistakes, as well as the errors of certain politicians and retired generals, and allow it to properly judge their words the next time they feel the urge to prophesy...

All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an opportunity to recant and repent."

-----

Hmmmm...putting people on trial for holding the "wrong" opinions? Not very forgiving, or very American of you it seems to me...

Well, Mr. Thomas, since it turns out you, like the rest of the warmongers, were wrong about everything don't you think it's time you listened to your own advice here and took the opportunity to recant and repent? Unlike you I do not advocate show trials or Maoist style self-criticism sessions but there are plenty of us out here in the real world who are ready to remind you and the rest of the "false media prophets" who predicted flowers and candy in Iraq of the errors of your past prophecies and demand that you be held accountable, at least in the court of public opinion.

Regards

A Hermit

There have been many things over the centuries that have caused Christianity to wander from its roots because of their non-biblical rules. There are a few biggies that come to mind: celibacy of priests, the papacy, forced conversion and murder of non-believers, refusals of mixed-religion marriages, baptism as a cleansing of sins, drinking alcohol as sin, worship of saints...

So I'm not speaking specifically of just one denomination; but hopefully all will be able to get back to their roots.

The Call is coming from INSIDE THE HOUSE!!!!!!

Epicurean Paradox? I'm more interested in the EpiKorean Paradox, that is, how do people with such delicious food stay so slender.

Deb, you say, "I consider this to be the unfortunate truth caused by the morphing over the ages of Christianity into something that it was never meant to be."

Are you talking about roman Catholics?

Also, like Mr Mark, I'm hearing a lot of "they're not real Christians" when avowed Christians do something bad that embarrasses other Christians.

This thinking applies to atheists too. Pol Pot, Hitler and Stalin weren't real athiests, you know. They couldn't even live up to the one simple atheist tenet - non-belief in God. No - they believed that they were God. It's so obvious.

There's a "wacko Christian" who stands on the sidewalk by a shopping area in my town EVERY day who holds up various signs that say things like "God is angry with you - why do you let your women dress like wh*res?" Now THAT is a wacko. I just want to give him some money to buy new clothes and a shower, but he won't take it. Makes me sad every time I see him...

Mr Mark,

That sounds like an intro to a creep-out movie...spooky!

Dear Deb-

As Andrea points out, those wacko Xians are right here on this blog, even within this very thread.

Deb,

Yes, there are some pretty wacky Christians on this board! The ones I see when the conversation turns to morals insist that without religion, there are no morals.

People thought and said all kinds of rude things about me when I was just a little Lutheran girl from a farm in Ohio...people are just mean.

Mr. Mark wrote:

"I must say that I have a larger problem with your line of reasoning, and that is the belief I often hear voiced by Xians that were it not for the moral center their religion provides, they would probably be out murdering, raping and pillaging."

Man, you must talk to some pretty wacky Christians! I would be really offended if someone had said that to me before I became a Christian (of course, I know there were a whole lot of people who thought all kinds of terrible things about me when I was just a nice little Jewish girl from the Bronx.) :)

BigDwrote:
"Mr Mark -

"I am talking about a specific education in Christian teaching. Not the domain of public schools."

Thanks for the clarification.

As a father with 2 kids in public school (elementary & middle), I can't think of anything that Xian teaching could add to the citizenship awareness my kids have received in their public school systems (they've attended schools in the east and west).

Most schools have a "RESPECT" program, wherein children are given an easy-to-remember list of principles to follow at school. My 4th-grade daughter joined the mediator program as part of her school's leadership initiative. This program involved her attending 2 days of mediator training at the local CalState campus. Twice a month, she spends her lunch hour as part of a 2-person team that helps kids mediate any problems/conflicts that may have arisen that day. If the conflict is out of hand, they refer it to the faculty, but many of these conflicts are simple playground incidents that the kids can and do resolve among themselves.

From what I have observed, my daughter and her friends have effectively extended the ideas behind the RESPECT program to their own relationships. More often than not, any conflicts these kids have among themselves get resolved within the day and don't seem to fester into the kids being on the outs with each other for any length of time.

Importantly, this program is entirely secular in its approach, and it seems to work quite well. It proves that even children can resolve differences without the motivation of some invisible, all-powerful baby sitter looking over their shoulders.

I must say that I have a larger problem with your line of reasoning, and that is the belief I often hear voiced by Xians that were it not for the moral center their religion provides, they would probably be out murdering, raping and pillaging. That is a false premise if I ever heard one, and it can be disproven in an instant by asking a very simple question: if you had no god to give you a moral center, would you visit such murder, rape and pillage upon your own children? I believe that most people would answer, "no." It then logically follows that if you can have moral clarity based on your relationship to your family absent the input from a god, you can just as well have moral clarity when dealing with the rest of the world without input from a god.

Human beings do not need god or religion to have moral clarity in their lives.

Thanks for the dialogue.

Food for thought when reading a column by Cal Thomas:

"When the Berlin Wall fell and Eastern Europe escaped from the shackles of communism, I wrote that we must not forget the enablers, apologists and other "fellow travelers" who helped sustain communism's grip on a sizable portion of humanity for much of the 20th century. I suggested that a "cultural war crimes tribunal" be convened, at which people from academia, the media, government and the clergy who were wrong in their assessment of communism would be forced to confront their mistakes. While not wishing to deprive anyone of his or her right to be wrong, it wouldn't hurt for these people to be held accountable.

"That advice was not taken - but today we are presented with another opportunity in the form of scores of false media prophets who predicted disaster should the U.S. military confront and seek to oust the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein. The purpose of a cultural war crimes tribunal would be to remind the public of journalism's many mistakes, as well as the errors of certain politicians and retired generals, and allow it to properly judge their words the next time they feel the urge to prophesy...

"All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an opportunity to recant and repent."

- Cal Thomas, April 15, 2003

Duet 18:22 "When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

Duet 18:20 "But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die."

Mr Mark -

I am talking about a specific education in Christian teaching. Not the domain of public schools. I am saying that the education whether through private school, sunday school, etc. is currently ineffeicient to raise people to truly act like Christians in a modern culture. I think this can be seen since most adults have a very limited understanding of the faith they proclaim to hold. Therefore a large part of the blame of Christians not acting like Christians falls on us Christians for not having proper means to educate people. Again doesn't apply to everyone some are doing a great job.

(As noted previously)

Atonement is part of apology and repentance.

The definition:

a·tone·ment (ə-tōn'mənt)
n.
Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.

Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
Atonement Christianity. The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

Professor Crossan's take on the Christian theology of atonement:

From his book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

"In the 1970s there was a man in prison in Atlanta (Theriault or Therioux) who claimed he was getting messages from ECLAT and was the ECLATARIAN NAZARITE. He started the Church of New Song."

"Eclat" is a misspelling. Actually, the guy had proof that St. Peter was an ECLAIR, and that Krispy Kreme and Dunkin' Donuts were usurpers who suppressed the Church's true heritage...Sorry, I've been watching too much "South Park."

BigD wrote:
"Mr Mark -

"I would submit that a big reason more Christians don't act like Christians is because of poor eductaion."

Are you talking about a generalized education or a specific Xian/Biblical explanation?

This goes way back, BUT:

In the 1970s there was a man in prison in Atlanta (Theriault or Therioux) who claimed he was getting messages from ECLAT and was the ECLATARIAN NAZARITE. He started the Church of New Song. I think there was a long legal case.

Hey, Jacob, did I get close to your inspiration?Does anyone else remember this?

Yep - not really a paradox i don't believe - but the first recognized attemt at solving the problem of evil.

Epicurean Paradox...

Mr Mark -

I would submit that a big reason more Christians don't act like Christians is because of poor eductaion. How can we expect them to act Christian if we don't teach them what that means? Not to discredit the schools and groups that are doing a good job but right now they are more the exception then the norm. I realize you don't believe in all that but you submitted the question and I think this is one part of the answer.

Attn: Jacob JOZEVZ

No I don't agree with anything you said. I can't have conversation with you because; 1. You didn't answer my question. 2. You speak in cryptic rants.

PS. I'm not greater than Jesus Christ and neither are you. He is the Son of God, God in the flesh.

Kaman -

Hate to burst your bubble - but hopefully Andrea isn't still on here so you can still save face.

The Epicurean Paradox - its been around for quite sometime and says pretty much what you said. And I would say it is a slightly snappier name :)

Better women have tried....

...I'll count the seconds...

Well, all this flirting has diverted the thread and gotten me all worked up. I think I will go home now and "tame" the wife. It's been fun Andrea, I hope to see you around again. These religious forums are so much fun.

And remember:

The Kaman Aphorism
The Kaman Aphorism
The Kaman Aphorism
The Kaman Aphorism

Kaman,

Did I not say "man" earlier?

I knew you made it up. But, yes, you are the first I've seen to give it such a snappy name.

Perhaps I'm not the first one to think of it, but I did think it up on my own. But that doesn't matter. I am the first to give it a snappy name. Now I will become famous and people will quote it for all time. I will rule the world!!!! muh ha ha ha

Hmmm, you didn't deny you were marrying a woman. That is so effing hot.

Jacob,

But I want to watch Star Wars...

Kaman,

I didn't insist.

Kaman,

I thought maybe you had just made it up, and you're not the first person to try to make that point here.

Marrying a woman? Come on now, we both know that's illegal. Or are you from a country that isn't stuck in the Dark Ages?

OK, if you insist...

*******************************
***The Kaman Aphorism***
*******************************

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then:

1. God is evil. (He created evil to inflict torture on his creations.)

------------------OR-----------------

2. God is apathetic to evil. (He created Lucifer, who then created evil. God knew this would happen but created Lucifer anyway and then let him go.)

------------------OR-----------------

3. The Christian definition of God is wrong.

You are marrying the man who hasn't tried? Are you saying that all men try to tame you, which means you are marrying a woman? Or the first man you meet who doesn't try to tame you, you will marry? Or you are engaged to a man who didn't try to tame you?

Yes, you should have heard of the Kaman Aphorism. Look at my first post on this thread...LOL The Kaman Aphorism is written there. Should I post it again to enlighten those who may have just come in and skipped to the bottom?

Kaman,

Maybe not better than you, but I am marrying the man who hasn't tried.

I have not heard of The Kaman Aphorism. Should I have?

Andrea,

You don't know that they are better men than I. Also, I have found that women who are fiesty/assertive in everyday life, are just the opposite when they are...well,

Probably should get back on topic. Have you heard of The Kaman Aphorism?

Mr. Mark:

The church that I go to is non-denominational, and I guess if you had to put some kind of label on it it would be "lightly evangelical". The point is that the emphasis is on the teachings of Jesus, not the teachings of "the church"; and the history of its people, not simply what the OT says about that history. Preaching from the OT speaks more from Psalms and Proverbs than anywhere else, because there is so much there that speaks to the heart.

It's a neat, comfortable place to be. The pastor wears jeans most of the time, they play loud music, and there are over 2000 members (luckily they're not all there at once!). And no, there are no people jumping and shouting "hallelujah!", or being "healed" or anything like that! We're just a big group of people from all walks of life who have found that we enjoy our lives better living them for God, and trying to show that love to others.

Kaman,

Information about my beliefs. I don't mind sharing my hair color. As far as taming is concerned, better men have tried.

Andrea,

I thought you weren't going to share any more information about yourself. Perhaps you're too feisty for your own good and need to be tamed.

Russell,

You and your hot redhead wife. I have a touch of red in my hair (I get that from my grandfather) that really shows up in the summer. Maybe that's where I get my fiest from.

Kaman,

I think fiesty women are pretty effing spectacular in all sitations.

Andrea,

You're right. I got you confused with someone else when you mentioned my rant. I sincerely apologize for painting you as a Christian...yikes.

Fiesty women are fine in some situations, but not in others. LOL

I like my women fiesty.........that's why I married a redhead.

Kaman,

You really don't know where I'm coming from, do you? Other than that I'm hot, you know nothing about me. I'm not a Christian. I used to be until very recently. But that's all the information you're getting about me.

Or, when you said "I wish you didn't have such strong beliefs," did you mean that you don't like your women fiesty?

Andrea,

Your name sounds like your hot, btw. I wish you didn't have such strong beliefs.

The reason for posting "The Kaman Aphorism" was to show error in people's way. To reach down and deliver them from the mirey clay. I've been where you are now. I know you can come up to my level and see the light. (sound familiar?)

Andrea:

Leggo my Eggo

Concerned,

I wish you would have added Russell's "crap.crap.crap" comment in that from the other thread.

Kaman,

"I don't think God defined in the Christian tradition is in a position to offer forgiveness. It's like Charles Manson "forgiving" you for murdering someone. It doesn't mean much."

Wish you would have just come out said that as your point before that rant (which, I'm guessing, you posted for the specific purpose of trying to offend someone..but if that's your style...)

Russell,

Eek gads, man...touchy touchy...

Can God repent to himself?

"Knowledge is the Enemy of Faith"

Repentance is the actual change of one's thinking about God, the Word of God, the people of God, one's own standing about God, Christ, etc. It will also involve one's change of behavior in the opposite direction one was living (biblical terms are walking and conversation). It is a change of attitude (way of thinking) and behavior. Once repentance is made, then forgiveness and reconciliation will follow. There must be acknowledgement and confession of sin followed by the turning away of sin. It will not be as Judas Iscariot's repentance which was confession of sorrow that he got caught at betraying Christ and then went and hanged himself, but will truly involve the turning around of one's thinking and behavior. It requires faith.

Now, faith is not blind. It presupposes pre-existing knowledge. Knowledge and faith go together. One cannot have faith without knowledge and vice-versa. In fact, knowledge will take us only so far in any action that we take, but faith based on the previous knowledge given to us will take use the next step. Just remember, that faith and knowledge are intuitive, intellectual and experiential.

Andrea:

Technicalities, geez woman!

A request for more "arping".

The definition and results so far:

There is not enough apologizing, repenting and "penancing" ("arping") e.g. The Catholic Church should start "arping" for claiming it is the one true religion. Ditto for Islam. Ditto for Mormons.

The Catholic Church should start "arping" for the Inquisition and the treatment of Jews. Islam should start "arping" for the militant and anti-female passages in their Koran.

Add your own suggestions for "arping" and let us know what they are.

"Luke:
Whites should start "arping" for treatment of blacks and native americans. Protestants and Catholics should "arp" for everything they've done to each other in Ireland. America should "arp" for Hiroshima and Nagasaki". England should "arp" for Dresden. Actually, while we are at it, we should quit our jobs, and "arp" until everyone has covered all of their own history, and then our kids won't have to."

"Andrea:

Another can of worms is this : who should be doing the "arping" ?

Should all people from the offending country "arp," or just those in power when it happened? "

If I have offended anyone, my apologies.

I don't think God defined in the Christian tradition is in a position to offer forgiveness. It's like Charles Manson "forgiving" you for murdering someone. It doesn't mean much.

Deb wrote:

"I am encouraged that lately there is a very determined effort among certain denominations to get back to the basic principles of Christ's teachings, and away from the "religion" commanded by people who put themselves into positions of power and authority."

I would be happy if modern Xians would embrace the teachings of the Gnostics who saw Jesus as a purely spiritual being. Hell, I'd be happy if Xians knew even a smidgen of the history of their own church! Give the typical Xian a history lesson of what church belief was before Constantine and they'll accuse you of lying or being an agent of the devil.

The fact is that modern Xianity bears no resemblance to the early church. That would be a good thing had the church continued to actively embrace science (as it did pre-dark ages), but many modern efforts to get the church back to its "roots" are little more than exercises in willful ignorance and the demonization of science and, by extension, the intellect.

What churches are you talking about with your statement? I'd be interested to know.

I once asked a Jewish friend what she/they believed happened to someone after he/she died. She said she believed -- I'm not sure she was speaking for her entire faith -- that everyone went to heaven. Based on that, I said, wouldn't you be angry if you got to heaven and saw Adolph Hitler there. She said, no -- it is certainly not my position to judge, that's god's job. To be honest, I don't recall her saying anything about the need for Hitler to "repent" or anything of that nature, although I have always believed that once you've done the act, whatever it is, repenting is just a way of pretending you wouldn't have done whatever you were repenting for if you had thought it through some more. So don't repent, JUST DO THE RIGHT THING.

Russell,

You keep your cereal in the fridge?

Andrea:

Just stay away from my Cocoa Krispies. That might start a fight.

Kaman,

What's your rant got to do, got to do with it?

Russell,

As long as I can raid your fridge and put my feet on the coffee table.

Andrea:

Nope, that's not bad at all. You are welcome as a guest in my home anytime. NERDS UNITE!

I'll be presumptive and arrogant. It seems to thrive here. I will call this "The Kaman Aphorism".

*******************************
***The Kaman Aphorism***
*******************************

If God is omnipotent and omniscient, then:

1. God is evil. (He created evil to inflict torture on his creations.)

------------------OR-----------------

2. God is apathetic to evil. (He created Lucifer, who then created evil. God knew this would happen but created Lucifer anyway and then let him go.)

------------------OR-----------------

3. The Christian definition of God is wrong.

Russell,

A Cerd? You don't have to add the "cool," being a true nerd is cool enough.

Do you know if they sell MST3000 on dvd? Is it bad that I've seen some of the movies they made fun of, like, actually watched them outside of the show?

Andrea:

I knew I liked you. Mystery Science theater rules! I am not so much a Nerd as I am a Cerd(Cool nerd).

Beware if third party forgivers. Seek forgivness from those you offend and do it quickly. Better yet, never offend on purpose.

The three great faiths are based upon third party forgivness, God no less as the assumed forgiver. Can God forgive you when you injure, kill your neighbor, or enemy even?

Why do people do suicide attacks? What are they thinking? Is it not that Allah doesn't just forgive but demands their actions? We can say for sure that they do not expect to arrive in another world at the same time as those they kill.

The three great faiths have become ingrained into western culture, accepted as though they were a proper way of life yet all three advocate hell. Where does hell come from? But of course, hell is for the offended, those murdered in the name of God. God forgives and Allah demands the killing. Without hell there is no place to get rid of the victims. It's an old story but not that old, about 5,000 years.

Find the inventor of hell and find the headwaters of the three great faiths and understand why third party forgivness and God demanding the killing. http://www.hoax-buster.org has that story from the written historical record.

Russ,

Nope, only thing I ever watched on Sci Fi was Mystery Science Theater 3000 repeats. I never claimed to not be a nerd.

Mr. Mark wrote:

"...consider the very real possibility that "acting like a Xian" may encompass as many negatives as it does positives."

I consider this to be the unfortunate truth caused by the morphing over the ages of Christianity into something that it was never meant to be. I am encouraged that lately there is a very determined effort among certain denominations to get back to the basic principles of Christ's teachings, and away from the "religion" commanded by people who put themselves into positions of power and authority.

I am sorry to read it, but once again Cal Thomas has twisted logic, the Bible to serve his own interests.
In the post above, Thomas conflates repentance with forgiveness. Christ taught us how to pray: "... forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."
Repentance is not necessarily required to receive forgiveness. Forgiveness is required from those who would try to follow Christ.
Those who demand something -- true "repentance" in Thomas' case -- in exchange for forgiveness, don't understand what Christ was commanding us to do.
Thomas would tell us that the heart of a Christian is locked to forgiveness and that true repentance is the key that opens it. This is Puritan nonsense.
Any child who understands the Golden Rule can see that.

Andrea:

You know you watch em............;)

Pacifist,

I think you may have jumped the wrong way on your "jump to conclusions mat." I don't think that's what Mark was saying at all.

Mark
Note that I DID NOT say "Islam", I was only wondering whether MUSLIMS would apologize. I don't believe anything is wrong with Islam basically (PLEASE don't start a fight about this again), it is the radicals who have twisted things for their own selfish ends...who should apologize.

I will let it rest here...

Nerd Alert

Hey Jacob:

you catchin the Stargate episodes on Sci-Fi? Pretty cool..........

Pacifist:

in reference to islam wiseing up and making true repentance and restitution:
yes they should be forgiven.
if they breach that trust, Jesus will deal with them, as will the world.

However, don't hold your breath waiting for an apology.

;o)

Ben,

"Though, forgiveness goes hand in hand with true repentence. And if one repents from the heart, it really does not matter if one is forgiven or not. Forgiveness is a mere formality if one repents truly!"

Is this in reference to forgiveness from God, or from a person? I was speaking about forgiveness from the wronged person.

Point well taken...not every muslim need apologize! I was referreing to radicls (in ref to post by Pacifist).

Well said abt repentence and apology. Though, forgiveness goes hand in hand with true repentence. And if one repents from the heart, it really does not matter if one is forgiven or not. Forgiveness is a mere formality if one repents truly!

Deb wrote:
"Mr. Mark,

"The problem is that just because a person says he is religious does not mean he is a person who truly follows God or prays for His direction. There are many, many people in this world who say they are Christians, whose actions prove them to be otherwise. And a person doesn't give up reason to follow Christ - that was a cheap shot."

Deb -

Thanks for the comment.

My "reason" cheap shot was delivered in context of W, not as an indictment of all Xians.

As far as, "there are many, many people in this world who say they are Christians, whose actions prove them to be otherwise" - I'm sorry, but that refrain is growing awfully old and tired. I'd like to hear an explanation of this seeming dichotomy that stops short of the total exoneration of Xianity itself as a causitive factor in people "not acting like Xians." Indeed, if one wants to look at the whole of Xian history, one can easily posit that people like bush are acting EXACTLY like Xians.

In the words of the Steve Buscemi character in the movie "Armaggedon," it may be time for Xians to "embrace the horror" of their fellow Xians "not acting like Xians," and to consider the very real possibility that "acting like a Xian" may encompass as many negatives as it does positives.

Pacifist and Ben,

Who should do the apologizing? Every Muslim? Seriously? That's like me apologizing for the Holocaust because I'm of German ancestry. The people in power need to do the apologizing, but good luck with that. You can start with asking Amadinejad to apologize for allowing over 300 women to be arrested for being "improperly veiled."

Ben,

"But forgiveness is a virtue...not to common these days."

Forgiveness is available, but few people sincerely ask for it anymore.

Mr. Mark,

The problem is that just because a person says he is religious does not mean he is a person who truly follows God or prays for His direction. There are many, many people in this world who say they are Christians, whose actions prove them to be otherwise. And a person doesn't give up reason to follow Christ - that was a cheap shot.

Good point Pacifist!
Any muslim brave enough to step forwrd, acept all the screw-ups "you guys" have done in the name of religon, apolojize sincerly and promise not to let it happen again (as mentioned by the poster above)? But you have to be open-minded to acept mistakes and then say it wont happen again.

But forgiveness is a virtue...not to common these days.

To repent means to become holy and to cleanse the consciouness and to make reconcilliation with God for wrong doings.

God made man not perfect but good! To repent means to understand our human frailties, weaknesses and be made perfect for the one who created us.

For this is what God wants; for us to be pure and blameless in his sight.

Deb writes:

"Jesus might show "W" some good options, if W's open and willing to listen."

If there was ever a clear case of someone needing serious, longterm psychiatric treatment to help them, it is W. He's tried the religious route, and it's exacerbated his problems.

A lot less Jesus and a lot more reason would do W - and the entire country - a world of good.

Andrea,

He absolutely should take responsibility. No matter who his "advisers" are, the final decisions are his. That's why the president always goes gray!

MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION people:
So if all muslims apologize for ALL THE ATROCITIES on humanity and on women for the last 1400 years and show TRUE repentence, should they be forgiven?

Deb,

If Bush isn't sitting shot to Jesus, maybe he can and should take more responsibility for his poor choices and actions? Like you said, he's a big boy.

Andrea,

Jesus might show "W" some good options, if W's open and willing to listen. But W's a big boy with a free will to make his own choices. And people don't always make the right choices. Jesus doesn't "steer" people. He can make the right path available, but if we don't choose it that is our own fault.

True repentance and apology requires admission of guilt and wrong-doing...something Bush would never do since Jesus took the wheel in his life. Would Jesus ever steer him down the wrong path?

Jacob,

I'm not trying to get personal or anything, but what are you trying to say? Your cryptic rant, was useless except for the last paragraph. Are you suggesting that there is no need for repentance, but we only need to get along with "the ECLATi in You." What does getting along with whatever is in me have to do with the wrongs I commit against my neighbor? Should I not ask their forgiveness for my offenses or should I just say "pardon me, I'm going to go try to get along with my Eclati in me"? Our offenses affect others, they affect our neighbor, and they are against God. Sin and repentance is not just an internal problem, but it affects our relationships. Relationships with others and our relationship with God. Getting along with whatever is in me will not fix that.

Maybe Cal sould speak with his buds in the White House. We have a president who refuses to apologize for his lies and blunders both great and...greater. We have officials like Mr Gonzalez who "take full responsibility" for major screw-ups...as long as there are no negative consequences involved in taking such responsibility.

Too often, repentence in our political system is directly linked to the rehabilitation of one's reputation and the re-emergence of the "sinner" as a force in the political/personal wealth arena. Whereas any normal person has no problem admitting when they're wrong and are happy with repentence that gets them back to square one, our politicians seem to consider repentence only when dragged kicking and screaming to account, and to only offer their repentence when the deal has been cut to insure their financial futures.

I'd give real money to see a politician who apologizes quickly and honestly for his sins, accepts his punishment and slinks off into ignominity and obscurity (perhaps Duke Cunningham came closest to this approach). To be sure, we Americans are a forgiving people, but the last I looked, there's nothing in our Constitutiion that guarantees a life of luxury to politicians after they've severely abused the public trust.

Repentence and forgiveness? Yes. Automatic entry to the speaking circuit? Not so much.

"True sorrow involves repentance, not a statement crafted by press agents, or political consultants, who are paid to minimize damage to their clients."

Most credible PR consultants urge their clients to admit wrongdoing and apologize. The advisers who "are paid to minimize damage" are the lawyers, who generally advise against an apology because they worry that it will open the client to lawsuits.

Love the Oswald Chambers quote!