Digging for Bones No Way to Find Jesus

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To the scoffers that think Jesus is not coming:

2 Peter 3

Knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

Jesus is definitely coming soon.

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Marco Polo,

You do make a good argument and your methods are similiar to mine. I respect your argument based on the premise that we need to rely on ourselves to get through life. It's a battle I still fight to this day. The problem is, when viewing life through my worldview, I believe that we do have a higher purpose in life, and, that life isn't just about us. That is why, as a Christian (and yes, I am NOW admitting to being one), when I view life through the Biblical Worldview I know that not only am I called to a higher calling than mere existence, but, that I live according to a different set of rules as opposed to the "worldly" set of rules that more often than not is in stark contrast to what we as Christians believe and aspire to. I do not see my faith in Jesus Christ as a crutch; I see it as a choice. Yes, God helps us through the hard times, but, God also has sets high standards of holiness and righteousness that we need to live by. The good thing, however, is that we're not thrown into the deep end and expected to swim. We're provided with a way and means by which we can achieve a life of holiness and righteousness i.e.: the power of God inherent in every believer through the Holy Spirit whom indwells all believers.

The problem with this, however, is that it requires a life of submission to the Holy Spirit and this takes actual effort. No, we're not saved by works (we change our works because we're saved) but the Bible does tell us not to conform to the ways of this world but to renew our minds on a daily basis. This once again requires action, just as submission requires action. Therefore, while it can at times be viewed as a crutch, Christianity should not be viewed as mere religion but more a case of relationship and more specifically, a lifestyle.

It is good that you read alot and try to find evidence and in the process debunk that which you feel is not supported by evidence. The problem is, if you read the work of atheists and those in the business of trying to debunk Christianity you'll inevitably find that which masquerades as evidence. On closer examination of this so-called evidence, however, especially when compared to the truth presented by those who defend the Christian faith, you'll find the true evidence that has concrete proof. The problem with most atheists, agnostics and others (I'm not too sure what you view yourself as) is that when they are presented with solid, foundational and verifiable evidence, they reject it outright or, worse still, change the topic and move onto the next "pop culture" approach or attempt at debunking Christ, the Bible etc. There is an avid refusal of these individuals to accept facts and evidence as facts and evidence when it confirms Biblical truths. This is what we call a knowledge filter that filters out that which they don't want to hear and allows in only that which fits their paradigms.

I'm not sure if I've adequately addressed your post. I hope I have. I promised myself I'd not do this again. As I said before, I'm using another name on this forum since I got into some heated debates the last time. I'm still carefully considering my "involvement" on this forum. Look, this forum certainly doesn't need me; I'm merely one of many. In my heated debates, however, the forum certainly took notice and it was a case of 5-6 against little old me. And, I'm a teddy-bear at heart, really I am. All nonsense aside though, I'll see where our conversation goes...

I always liked the bumper stickers that referred to "My kid is an honor student at **********"
and the latter which said "My kid beat up your honor student"

Those were always my favorites. When it come to a forum such as this Phantom, I find that those kind of simple tirades bring out more of an arguing nature in most people. People need to let the fire out so to speak. Argue with passion, and eventually it will lead somewhere.
As for what I have been reading, I have been reading and watching and looking up everything I can get my hands on. Maybe it's an obsession, but I like to think of it as debunking what the majority sees as true. Maybe it makes me an outcast, but I like to do it anyways. I figure after I am done with Christianity(probably never), I'd start with Islam, but of course they seem to be already hanging themselves without my help.
I like to find the holes. Nothing is absolute in this world, including God. If there is an absolute, its death and taxes, but you already know that.
I am not against religion, I am all for it. It helps people and gives them purpose. Yet it is also a crutch. Some people just can't get through life without it. Why depend on something you can't see? Or feel? Why not depend on yourself? What is so wrong with yourself that you can't rely on your own abilities to get through life? That's just the way I see it.
Can't wait to see your response to this Phantom. Later bro.

Marco Polo,

I must admit to smiling when I read your post. Reading both our posts in totality we look like the little kids who claim "my dad can beat up your dad" although admittedly I started first.

Funny though, you use my exact same arguments I always made when I was an active poster on these threads i.e.: go read it up for yourself. So, on that I agree with you 100% I just don't know WHAT you're reading brother! And I don't know whether you're totally sober when reading it... Of course Jesus knew and knows about Buddhism, since He is the Living God. He didn't have to study Buddhism, since He is all knowing.

Put up or shut up...I am tempted...really tempted...

Aw come on Phantom, argue with me, it's no fun otherwise. Think you can do better? Put up or shutup. I have read the bible, and I study its history continually to this day. Which part don't you agree with? Some of it or all of it? Maybe you shouldn't lecture me until you can grasp the situation which you claim I know nothing about.

Did you not look it up? Were you lazy? or did you just feel like I was attacking Christianity? Wuld you be ofended if I went on to say that Jesus most likey studied Buddism beore he began to preach? if it des, too bad, look it up,as I already said. Don't gripe at me just because you don't know any beter.

Marco Polo,

You are dumber than you look dude! Oh my gosh, please proof a post with proof before you post it as proof! You probably get your info from the pearl of all "objective" websites www-dot-thebibleisahoax-dot-com.

Idiot!

Note, I'm not admitting to being a Christian and I'm not admitting to being a non-Christian...

I'm merely admitting to being irritated by all the idiots who claim to know something about something, especially something they denigrate and refuse to read or that they read 40 years ago...and that applies to you all...

Why do I still DO this to myself??!!

I am so tempted to reveal my true identity again and to get into heated debates with the likes of yourself and others.

Let me leave before I do...the others may be watching...

Cal is right... the remains of Jesus will never be found... but not for the reason that he thinks. Jesus is not 'risen'. In fact, he never even existed. He was (and still is) a myth, just like the objects of the other "Salvation Cults' of the day... Osiris, Attis, and Adonis were mentioned here, earlier.

Early Christians, such as Paul, had no inkling of the idea that Jesus ever existed as an actual human person who lived in the recent past. In all of the genuine (not forged) writings of Paul, there are only two references to events that can even be interpreted as having taken place on the human plane of existence, absent the mental contamination that comes from having read the Gospels, and interpreting them in that light. Paul omits essentially ALL (two exceptions) of the details of the supposed 'life' of Jesus that are 'revealed' in the Gospels. Pretty odd, huh?

It is most likely that as early Christian missionaries came into contact with pagans, "spreading the word", that they gradually became aware that the people they were addressing were interpreting their message as a story about an actual person... not someone who figuratively and metaphorically existed (and had existed) only in imaginary spiritual realms. So, they figured... why fight it? These boneheads are swallowing this fable hook-line-and-sinker, in a way that we never anticipated. We need to build off this unexpected success by developing some real, heavy-duty marketing materials.

Thus... the Gospels.

Mark was the 'first-draft', written near the end of the 1st century. Fair outline, but sketchy on details.

Matthew and Luke, probably written shortly after the beginning of the 2nd century, were competing 'second-drafts', written using Mark as a template, expanding on the Mark outline and creating scenarios in which to incorporate 'sayings of Jesus', which were actually a Judaized version of snippets of 'wisdom' from the Greek 'cynic' school of philosophy, written down in the supposed 'Q-document' (look up 'Synoptic Gospels'). They were both tried out 'in the field', to see which one was received better. Unfortunately, both drafts escaped 'into the wild'. (You can't un-ring a bell.)

John... who the heck knows where John came from. Probably some mid-2nd century intellectual who just thought that he could do a much better job spinning a yarn, than the authors of the amateurish tripe that was presently in circulation.

The existence of FOUR Gospels (rather than just one) is consequence of the fact that there was no mechanism in place for recalling and suppressing earlier versions of their marketing materials. So, over the centuries, Christian apologists have made a career out of trying to explain-away the glaring discrepancies.

Anyway, Cal... you are absolutely right. Nobody is ever going to find Jesus' body... just like nobody is going to find the bodies of Osiris, Attis or Adonis. The reason is very simple... they just never existed.

None of them.

JSS:

I tell lots of people of different religions to "chill". Why should get off that easily?
I never meant for my post to be pretty. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess.

As for your facts.......let's talk about what's fact. Fact: The Bible was not written by the men who claim to have written it.
Fact: the Bible was put together by a council of men after Constatine decided to bring rome together under one religion.
Fact: Most of the Bible is hearsay, and the rest is a bunch of borrowed and retold tales from other cultures.
Fact: Revelations is a symbolic story depicting the fall of Rome.
Fact: Your Bible has been grossly misinterpreted over the last 2,000 years.
Fact: Jesus wasn't born on Christmas
Fact: It takes more than 3 hours to die from a crucifixion.
Fact: Jesus didn't carry the whole cross. Given his state, he could only have carried the T beam instead. That and the fact that is what the other crucified did.
Fact: The four main gospels constantly contradict each other.
Fact: You can't have a world population the size of ours from a man and woman who only bore sons.

I hope these facts can help you out. And just in case you and anyone else is asking me to prove it, this is what I say: You are online reading this and wanting to respond to this, so go look it up yourself.

I can be civil, and I can be very annoying. Whichever I choose to be is my decision and therefore irrelevant in this thread. If you'd like me to be civil, I can. But nobody likes playing the good guy. Playing the villain is sooooo much more fun.

And in the spirit of friendship.......I hope none of this offended you all. And Happy Easter to all, and to all a good night.

Hey JSS,

I think you need to get resurrected the same Christ did by Mary (see above).

Hi, JSS - are you saying that it's condescending for Marco Polo to dare to tell a Christian to chill?

Would it be OK for him to tell a non-Christian to chill?

What's so bad about suggesting that you chill? I've seen lots of Christians here tell non-believers flat out that they were going to hell for not accepting their "loving" God.

What do you mean "your timing is poor and reveals your own discouragement at the lack of a quick or quality response to those facts?" Who are you to judge the quality of his response? It seems a bit condescending to me.

Marco Polo,

It amazes me the vehement, angry and harsh rhetoric that shows up on these lists. Then you tell a Christian who has extensive facts on the table to "chill".

Your timing is poor and reveals your own discouragement at the lack of a quick or quality response to those facts.

Condescension neither persuades others nor beautifies the speaker.

"The angel said it, Cal quoted it and i'm saying it again..."He is not here, He has risen, just as He said."

Kunte, are you suggesting that because an angel said it and Cal quotes the angel and then you repeat it on the internet, that people should believe it?

Can you name some other things that angels said that you believe and think people should believe?

As far as you know, when was the last time an angel made an important announcement or an utterance of any kind?

Do you regularly consult angels to help you with daily living here on Earth, or just on matters of religion?

I would like to hear your answers to these questions, and I also want to acknowledge upfront, that I'm pulling your chain a little, because I suspect you really haven't thought about these things very much.

I'm hoping that once you (and others) do, you'll be less likely to be so sure about things you haven't thought through.

Norrie and Wiccan,

If you think Virginia is bad with the SuperWalmart Churches...Google "butter jesus." Get a taste of some good ole Christianity from the big OH. I don't make any signs when I pass Big Butter Jesus, it just makes me hungry for some toast.

Norrie, I agree with the weather crankiness. I slid on ICE on my drive to work this morning. ICE! After an 82* teaser two days ago.

JSS:
You really think a book endorsing Christ and Christianity is really gonna throw in a line or two that says the guy never existed? Or that he and his band of "merry" men were just a bunch of conmen? Yea right........when has that ever happened?

I know I have posted this on other threads, but sometimes people need to be reminded to take a chill pill. Myself included.

If a bomb goes off it leaves evidence in a thousand different ways. If Christ's resurrection was really false, then this idea that a Catholic purge of historical documents has covered that up requires massive amounts of faith to believe.

Consider these historical documents. I will list the data for each in this order:
Work; When Written; Earliest copies; time span between writing and current copies; no. of copies

Herodotus; written 488-428 BC; earliest copy 900 AD; 1300 years between; 8 copies

Thucydides; written 460-400 BC; earliest copy 900 AD; 1300 years between; 8 copies

Tacitus; written 100 AD; earliest copy 1100 AD; 1000 years between; 20 copies

Caesar's Gallic War; written 58-50 BC; earliest copy 900 AD; 950 years between; 9-10 copies

Livy's Roman History; written 59 BC-17 AD; earliest copy 900 AD; time between 900 years; 20 copies

New Testament; written 40-100 AD; earliest copy 130 AD (full manuscript 350 AD); time between 30-300 years; 26,300 copies

...all I am saying is that the evidence for the authenticity of the documents related to the New Testament is overwhelming compared to other documents that NO ONE disputes.

There are over 5000 Greek manuscripts; over ten thousand Latin manuscripts and 9300 other manuscripts, as well as over thirty-six thousand citings in the writings of the early church fathers. As one of the greatest textual critics every, F.J.A. Hort, said, "In the variety and fullness of the evidence on which it rests, the test of the New Testament stands absolutely and unapproachably alone among ancient prose writings."

F.F. Bruce summarizes the evidence by quoting Sir Frederic Kenyon, a leading scholar in this area: "The interval then between the dates of original composition and the earliest extant evidence becomes so small as to be in fact negligible, and the last foudnation for any doubt that the Scriptures have come down to us substantially as they were written has now been removed. Both the autheniticity and the general integrity of the books of the New Testament may be regarded as finally established."

No Other Religion is founded on fulfilled prophecies given hundreds of years before the life of the religious leader. Christ fulfilled over 300 prophecies (spoken by different voices over 500 years) including 29 major prophecies fulfilled in a single day. If Christ was such a clever con-man then how did he fulfill the prophecy about his birth place. Was he able to con his mother into moving to Bethlehem while he was still in the womb? What about prophecies about Herod's attempt to kill all children 2 years and under thereby requiring a move to Egypt to escape. Did Jesus as a barely speaking 2 year old convince his parents to choose Egypt?

It is absurd to think that Jesus was just a con-man. It is equally absurd to think that we have over 26,000 copies of the New Testament dated to within 300 years of being written and NOT ONE that says Jesus never existed or that he was a liar or that his followers were con-men.

I sense some tension in here but hey... it's just a topic.
You may not believe that Jesus is alive but that's the truth.
To some of us...even 'if' the gospel of Jesus Christ is not true (which is not so)...We still love leaving for HIM.
Its been over 2000 years...have you been able to find any of His bones?
It amazes me how many people, groups, sects...even individual who are trying to disprove the truth of His gospel. hmmm To some, it's just too simple to be true.
To others, its not just possible.
Is it the fact that He proclaimed Himself to be God or the fact the He was raised up from the dead. Thank God for records- Some that saw Him then did and those that love Him where so doged about their beliefs that they love Him even they are marked for death. All they preached was his message; talk about His love, speak of His grace and mercy.
I guess some folks can't handle that.
... You can say whatever you wanna, dig up the whole of Isreal, write more books ...you even claim you are a god... It won't...and i mean won't change anything (at least for those that know their God)

The angel said it, Cal quoted it and i'm saying it again..."He is not here, He has risen, just as He said."

Do you know life is a choice?
Do you you don't have to believe?
Do you know why He's not come?
He won't not until every corners of the earth's heard the good news... His good news.

Shalom

Anonymous

The second passage in Josephus that you cited is widely believed -- pretty much universally by secular scholars -- to be a later interpolation, at least in the form in which it appears in your comment.

The passage about James the brother of Jesus on the other hand, is much harder to criticize and the arguments against its authenticity seem much weaker to me.

Josephus is contemporary with some of the events in early Christianity, but was born in 37 and so was not an eye witness to any events recounted in the Gospels. I conclude from this that there were followers of Jesus in the time of Josephus. Nothing more, nothing less.

Personally, I believe there was a historical Jesus, but little if anything can be known about him at this time, which is most unfortunate.

It would be great if they did find Jesus’s bones. That would release all the Christians from the torment of reconciling the Bible against reality and common sense. I didn’t have that kind of knowledge when I overcame my brainwashing as a confirmed Lutheran. But thank God for my God given rational thought, I overcame.

Wiccan,

Of course it should have been "kind", not "king", in the post above.

Wiccan,

It would be very king of you to ask the Lady if she would be willing to do that. I'd really appreciate it and would try to send it on multifold to all the beings that I can.

Dear me, Wiccan, you live in Virginia. What can I say, except that I'm sorry and you have my condolences.

The weather must be the least of your worries down there. What sign do you make when you pass a megachurch?

If there's anything I can do from up here, 500+ miles away, please let me know.

Best to you.

Norrie-

If you can't laugh at yourself, you're not allowed to laugh at anyone else. And other people are so amusing! :-)

If you will permit, I'll ask the Lady to send some love your way. One day of cold weather here in VA made me cranky.

OoooPpsssss ANDREA, Norrie, et al: :=)/ Ya Mon!

SECULAR MAN against HUMAN-WRONGS against any CIVIL RIGHTS.

G-d is a SINGULAR World in a Secular MIND.

Hark! You LOVERS of of Old ISLAM et al

Hello SATANIC VERSE LOVERS --OF J,I,H,A,D,I,S,M IN Iran and elsewhere, on Space-Ship Earth & Beyond.

(((((((( U N C L E ----- S A M ------IS ------WATCHING------YOU ))))))

Come to Poppa & Momma G.W. Bush. He will Push Push in your Bushy Pushy. Ya Ya Satan Actors and killers in and from Iran , Company, et al.... BEHOLD!

Maybe our President Mr. Bush was right when he said these two thing that I find WISE.
1)"YOU Are Either With Us Or Against US." Similar.

2)On Pakistan reluctance to help US post 911, "We can BOMB YOU Back To the Stone-Age.." Similar.

WE COULD NUKE Iran-Afghanistan & Pakman country ALL AT THE Same-Time and call it a day!

And Brother George Walker will enjoy his Jim Beam, just like in Heaven. But Only with Laura, Our virgin First Lady. Ya Ya. :=)'

Then TRUE & Genuine PEACE and healing of Nations on EARTH will truly become the Bloom of our future. Because the real SATAN will lose. And we will win. Just a matter of clock time.
PEACE-LOVE-ROCKnROLL. Ya Ya.

Andrea,

I don't think my posts in this thread are very different from what I usually say. If they are, it's because its snowing hard out right now, and they say there won't be any warm weather here for another ten days. And, despite my pretensions, I'm only human. Spring's an English literary conceit which doesn't exist in northern New England

But thanks for suggesting that I'm level-headed and patient. All too often, I know, my overbearing side takes over. The anonymity of the internet brings that out. It's like virtual road rage.

Wiccan,

What a great dream! To the extent that my post may have contributed to it, I'm glad. My sons have great dreams, too, just as lively and imaginative as yours. For a few years now, mine have been singularly uninteresting - I'm usually back in my now-retired-from office, doing what I used to do. What a bore!

BTW, the orange & sleeps 3 gag was told to me by a Vermont State Highway Department worker. Still a lot of (self) humor up here - don't know about the rest of the U.S. these days, unless it's gallows humor.

Best to both of you, Andrea and Wiccan.

The Resurrection

Mary Magdalene plays a prominent role in the resurrection, having first found Christ arisen (though not exactly, since the tomb was actually empty). According to some readings of the gospels, she was a prostitute who had her demons cast out by Jesus and became his closest companion. Some scholars suggest she was his lover, as in Luke 8:2, mentioned as one of the women who "ministered to Him [Jesus] of their substance".
There are even writings attributed to a gospel of Mary.

The latest gospel found, The Gospel of Mo, recounts a different resurrection story. It follows here.

The Mary, who bound most closely to Jesus, attended him on the cross as she had in life, soothing and uplifting him, taking him away from his agony. Following his death and entombment, she went to him to anoint him with spices, to purify his body of the stench of putrification; at least that is what she told the other disciples. When she arrived, she found the tomb essentially empty of him, though the body was there in the burying cloth, lifeless and stinking. However, his precious essence was no longer prominent, but was flaccid and limp, while the rest of the body was rigid in rigor. She looked on in utter despair. Her dream of one last union with The Son appeared beyond her grasp. But grasp it she did, and then wailing in grief, she began stroking it insistently in her sorrow, mourning for his return. Her wails subsided. For a long time she sat there sobbing, slowly fondling him, rubbing sweet smelling ointment into his essence, trying desperately to bring him back to life. Finally she bent to kiss it in tender affection and fond remembrance, gently placing it in her mouth as she had often done after his strenuous exertion, while his breathing slowed. Those were her happiest moments and they were forever gone, for he breathed no more. Her inconsolable grief returned, and with it a sense of urgency in which she frantically stroked and sucked, willing him back, back to his former glory, restoring him to rigorous vigor. Suddenly, he was newly risen. Overcome with joy, she happily hopped on, then slowly lowered herself onto him with a shudder of pleasure, again in union with her lord, now fully resurrected.

Jacob makes me miss the Lone Mule.

Norrie!

You and your "orange and sleeps three"! I logged off after I chided you for that post and didn't get to read your answer until later. Thankfully, my sleep wasn't any worse than usual. HOWEVER...when the alarm went off I hit the snooze button and immediately fell into a dream. This huge orange came rolling up (ala "James and the Giant Peach"), and the navel swung out. This Buddhist monk, complete with saffron robes and coke-bottle eyeglasses, got out, glared at me, and barked, "Well?! You gettin in or what?!" That image kept me laughng all day. Brightest Blessings, my Buddhist bud.

That'll show me to not preview before I post.

Jacob,

What I meant to say was ENOUGH!

Norrie,

Where did your famous level-headedness and patience go? Or maybe I just read your posts with more oomph in my head that you intended! I do agree with you -
"It's not up to me or anyone else to prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

It's up to the believers to prove that he did."

Jacob,

((>))

Here is a bit of historical, non-biblical text on the subject. It is not PROOF (there were no cameras back then), but it is non-biblical:

Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, a member of a priestly family and who became a Pharisee at the age of 19, became the court historian for Emperor Vespasian. In the Antiquities, he wrote about many persons and events of first century Palestine. He makes two references to Jesus. The first reference is believed associated with the Apostle James. "...he brother of Jesus, who was called Christ." He also wrote, "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and (he) was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive, accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders."

Hey Ba'al:

You see that movie with Clive Owen and Keira Knightley? King Arthur.....might help. It was a good movie too. Way better than any of the previous ones. Look it up.

Before anybody can convince me that Jesus rose from the dead, I would like someone to convince me that he was more of a historical figure than King Arthur.

And please don't tell me about what the New Testament said about what the Disciples had said about Jesus's having risen.

That's multiple hearsay, not admissible in any small claims court case in the country over who owns a dog or a cat.

It's not up to me or anyone else to prove that Jesus did not rise from the dead.

It's up to the believers to prove that he did.

Such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinarily conclusive evidence that the resurrection happened.

There isn't any such evidence.

In the stories of Osiris, Attis, and Adonis, the conception that these gods died and were resurrected in order to lead their faithful to eternal life is not represented in Hellenistic mystery religions. People use these as examples of resurrections that the story of Jesus was based on, but they are not stories of resurrections, and certainly not stories of leading their faithful to eternal life.

Christians have been using the same lame arguments as Cal Thomas for centuries. The real test is: why hasn't Jesus returned? Answer: dead people don't come back.

Christianity is the victory of hope over experience and common sense. In other words, it is folly, like faith in the blue fairy. Frankly I prefer the blue fairy to that gay Jesus of church art.

From a "human standpoint", there are people today who will die or commit suicide for all sorts of mystical ideas that I am sure Cal would reject out of hand.

Further, how does Cal know that none of the early Christians cracked under the threat? He assumes it. Ideas spread regardless of their truth, and these sorts of resurrection stories were told about all sorts of people in the Hellenistic world.

Persecutions and martyrdoms are reported from a period of time sufficiently late that the people involved would not have seen Jesus in the flesh (assuming he ever existed).