World Without End, Amen

You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13

You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13

You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13

You will seek Me and you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart...Jer.29:13

The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.

The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.

The atomic bomb will not destroy the earth.The
global warming will not destroy the earth. God
created the earth and he will destroy every
thing thats ungodlly on earth, but not the
earth itself. For in the mellineum He will
rule from the throne of David in Jerusalem.
The earth He created will remain forever.This
will happen when the unbeliever has had every chance to recieve Christ as savior and redeemer.

I also grew up in the Catholic Church and must say I attended Mass because that was expected of me...at the age of 16 a priest hit me on the head with a Catholic missal so hard I bit my tongue which bled profusely...all because I asked a question during religious instruction that he didn't approve of...I came to despise Catholicism and all religions, for that matter...I still have no use for religion...but once upon a time I knelt down and lashed out at the God I no longer believed in...I ranted and raved and pretty much told Him he would have to explain much if He expected me to believe in Him...my heart was seeking and honest before Him...He honors sincerity in seeking Him and He revealed Himself to me...it's not about religion...it's about relationship...and I honestly believe if Jesus was walking the earth today he would slam the tv preachers and religions just as he did 2,000 yrs ago....I have met the One who bore my sins and He is more real to me than my own reflection...
Come now,and let us reason together, says the Lord. Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red like crimson,they shall be like wool.

Fate,

God does not exist, only your insecurities do.

Believer wrote:
---You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?---

I have the utmost repect for Jesus and what he taught. I accept much of what he taught. I just wish most christians would do the same.

---He is everything to me. My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is.---

Too much of anything is, as they say, not a good thing. I believe I know who he truly was. A great man who spoke truth to many powers. But ascribing god-like powers to Jesus deminishes the work he did. Consider that he was one of us, a regular Joe. Then his accomplishments really rise above anything that came before or since. But giving him god-like powers and a Godly directed mission that he cannot ignore, I think, gives the impression that what he did was not his own work but directed by God. That Jesus was just along for the ride. I don't believe that. I think, based on the evidence, that Jesus was a great man who thought for himself, putting truth and honesty before religion and the religious heiarchy. Something the church that was created in his name does not condone.

Not believing in a God I find Jesus an amazing guy who today, I think, would go into every church and rip out its gold and jewels and hand them out to the poor. He'd call the Pope a Ceasar-wannabe. He'd look at how we live in segregated communities and how we treat one another and ask us why we do so. He'd wonder how christians could start a war on a country that did nothing to us nor threatened us. I never hear christians ask if Jesus would have invaded Iraq. If Jesus would lower taxes on the rich but maintain them on the middle and lower classes. If Jesus would approve of political cronies with no ability leading governmental institutions. If Jesus would approve of an interracial marriage. I do think Jesus would approve of the American constitution, of its guaranteed freedoms and liberties. I think Jesus would wonder why a christian president would toss the constitution aside and spy on Americans and ask why christians are so afraid of death that they would deny another person's freedom to avoid it. If you think you truly know Jesus, you would know that much of what christianity is today would not be approved by him. But, as you imply, Jesus himself was one awesome dude.

To expand on Jeannie's point and one of Fate's points, when I think of something greater than myself, I think of nature and the universe. I prefer that instead of the idea of a higher intelligence that must be pleased or placated.

Jeannie wrote:
---A challenge to those who don't believe in a higher intelligence than themselves....if you were incorrect would you want to know that?---

Sure! As an atheist I seek the truth. Consider the alternate question you should ask yourself: If God is a delusion would you want to know that?

---The Challenge? Kneel down and ask the creator to reveal Himself to you if indeed He is real...if you seek in sincerity you will find...if you have the courage.---

I've done this. I spent 15 years in Catholic schools, 30 years kneeling in Catholic church. I watched physical abuse (corporal punishments) handed out by high minded nuns and priests. I saw little in the form of forgiveness and a lot of judgementalism. I saw families hounded and intimidated because their "offerings" to the church were too small. And you can guess what happened to me at 12 years old when I openly questioned the existance of God in what I thought was an honest question.

Jeannie, when you look at the world, really look at it, its people, its cultures, its religions, you will see that religion is a commonality in man's nature. We even see it long before Christ or even the Hebrew God came on the scene. My challenge to you is to ask yourself what you would do if you were given convincing evidence God did not exist. Could you handle the news or would you dismiss it out of hand prefering to continue the illusion? I'm not trying to convert you, just get you to understand that much of what you believe has been drilled into you and natural for you to accept. Don't you think its a strange coincidence that Catholics have kids that grow up to be catholics and bussists have kids that grow up to be buddists? Consider that you did not have a choice as to what you believe and you are happily now living in the delusion you were taught to believe. Just consider it, that's my challenge.

As for Cal's answer, he leaves out the concept of WHO will be allowed to live in that new earth. Funny thing, its people of the same religion who wrote the scritpture. How convenient, how self deluding.

Jeannie - are you implying that people who don't "kneel down and ask the creator to reveal himself" are wimps?

If so, how do you know? For instance, is that in the Bible somewhere?

You sound pretty grandiose and sure of yourself, but honestly, I never heard that all anyone needed to do to see the creator was to kneel down and sincerely ask him to reveal himself, and that only a lack of courage would prevent it. To me, this sounds very intimidating and not at all what I associate with a loving God. It seems more like a scare tactic.

By the way, I don't mind being incorrect about just about anything. I'm always willing to change my thinking based on new input.

A challenge to those who don't believe in a higher intelligence than themselves....if you were incorrect would you want to know that?

The Challenge? Kneel down and ask the creator to reveal Himself to you if indeed He is real...if you seek in sincerity you will find...if you have the courage.

Brambleton:

Yea, we know. Well, some of us know I guess. It's not like people have to log-in with a user name and password. I accidentally posted with someone elses name once in a conversation. Of course, my intention wasn't to be a troll.

You are a baptist right? A buddy invited me to a mens retreat last night at a local baptist church. It was the first time I've been in a church like that for a service in about 15 years.

Regards

The last post included my name but was not mine. Some posters idea of a joke.

Brambleton,

Did you do it in the brambles?

A rather prick-ly situation, I imagine.

Guys,
What Mr. Cal probably needs is a weekend on Castro Street in S.F. to loosen him up and get rid of his
stupid opinions on gays. He'd probably immediately head for the Jaguar Bookstore to prime his pump.

I wrote:

"And you expect us to take anything you take seriously?"

Should have been: "And you expect us to take anything you say seriously?"

Sometimes it's hard to type when you're seeing red...

Brambleton wrote:
"I take back everything I've said. I apologize.

"Last night I had a revelation. I had gay sex, tons of it. And it was great. Amazing. I found god during my gay sex. But it wasn't the god of the bible. It was a gay god. And I had sex with him too."

And you expect us to take anything you take seriously?

Your bigotry is showing and it ain't pretty.

"My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is."

Believer, while I respect your good intentions, your personal religious beliefs are not about anyone but yourself. The same goes for anyone's religious beliefs, including my own.

Believer wrote:

"You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?"

1. I don't hate Xians and neither does anyone else. Stop playing the victim.

2. Sensible people can hate what Xians have done and also hate what non-Xians have done. They can love what Xians have done and love what non-Xians have done. The fact is that an actual existing god doesn't enter into it.

3. The "one who said the words above" never existed. Once you realize that, a lot falls into place. There's no need to deny or not love someone who never existed.

4, "He is everything to me." Really? Would you lay down your life for him? How about the lives of your immediate family? Early Xians did just that, and well after Jesus supposedly left this Earth. Be honest.

Take your questions and insert the name "Zeus" where you say Jesus or he and you'll find that you are almost an atheist yourself.

I suspect that it's bad form to point out spelling errors, but I loved the freudian ship in "Believer"'s post - crucifiction. It should of course be crucifixion. I think he is probably well served by his imaginary friend, but why does he care whether anyone else believes in him?

I take back everything I've said. I apologize.

Last night I had a revelation. I had gay sex, tons of it. And it was great. Amazing. I found god during my gay sex. But it wasn't the god of the bible. It was a gay god. And I had sex with him too.

"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me;

and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

John 14:24-26
(Jesus praying for His Disciples before his crucifiction)

You can hate Christians. You can hate what Christians have done. But I can't see how you can hate the one who said the words above. How can you deny Him? How can you not love Him?

He is everything to me. My soul aches that you don't know who he truly is.

Every time I stop by and read some of the posts I am amazed at the way the two sides of the issue talk past each other. Cal pretty much sucks vacuum as far as I am concerned, and I have trouble believing anyone takes him seriously. I think the problem is faith itself. I would be able to understand everything if I would just have "faith". I would be able to see green men as well if I only I had sufficient faith in green men. The fact that someone believes something through faith is meaningless to those without the rose-tinted glasses. I suspect the reason so many non-believers continue to post here is that we have trouble "believing" that those of "faith" don't recognize that there is no emperor inside the clothes. We are all in the position of looking at the empty suit and exclaiming "Where's the Emperor." By the way, trotting out Pascal's Wager for the nth time is just lame along with Aquinas' proofs of the existence of god.

Cal Thomas is a darling of the Religious Right. I don't deny his right to chirp away in writing columns and speaking out on this blog, but I don't accept much of what he says. He has proved himself to be a homophobe and gay-basher, so who can trust anything that comes out of his mouth.

Cal, get a life.

OK, all you fundies have now had your say. It is now time for reality. Let's face it, the following are reality:

1) There was no "Fall" in human history: that story like most of Genesis and the rest of the Hebrew Scripture is myth and or fiction.
2) The stories about Jesus in the NT are largely fiction, written forty years or more after his death...if indeed he really lived.
3) The Church as we know it...divided and splintered into thousands of pieces...is based on a settlement that was made possible by Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea, at which mostly Eastern bishops participated. At least it got the Christians off his back and he could rest quietly as a non-christian (he was baptized on his death bed).
4) Science trumps most if not all religion.
5) Religion is an addictive agent just like nicotine, alcohol and a host of other goodie drugs. Once you get released from this addiction you can smell the roses and enjoy reality.

Going to Church, like I did for years, was mainly, I now see, for the music, the ceremony, and coffee hour. I was an Episcopalian...and what better place for these than that!

Getting back to Cal Thomas' original column titled, "World Without End, Amen."

Windbag without end...ye gads!

Brambleton,

Mr Mark and Tonio answered your questions quite well. Two points, though.

We are not legally a Christian nation, but the majority of Americans are Christian. The voting statistics you cite against same-sex marriage demonstrate that quite well. Even states outside the bible belt are majority christian.

Finally, your bias and lack of understanding of science is well demonstrated by your fourth point. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. Evolutionary theory is used every single day by doctors and scientists the world over. Without an understanding of evolution, we couldn't develop effective flu vaccines every year. You can keep throwing out the silly "I'm not an ape" statements (no one said you were, although you are closely related to apes), but your underlying point here is uneducated and wrong.

Brambleton, good reply. I'll answer your points:

1. You're absolutely right that the Christian belief about homosexuality does not inherently equate to discrimination. And yes, many non-Christians also view homosexuality as immoral. The individual has the right to his or her own beliefs about homosexuality. However, such beliefs should dictate only the individual's behavior, not society's behavior or government's laws. Gay marriage poses no intrinsic harm to society or to straight people, so government has no compelling interest in banning it.

3. Again, many non-Christians also oppose embryonic stem-cell research. There are valid moral arguments for opposing it that have nothing to do with any religion's doctrine. The problem, as I see it, is that some (not all) Christians justify their opposition by insisting they know what God wants on the issue. That group justifies its stance on gay marriage with the same claim. Such claims by themselves are not sufficient basis for law.

4. As I mentioned elsewhere, most Christians do not oppose Darwin's hypothesis of natural selection. True, the hypothesis contradicts a literal reading of Genesis, but then most Christians and Christian denominations do not subscribe to Biblical literalism. My question is, why is there not agreement among Christians on how to read the Bible?

5. From my reading, there have been many studies showing the ineffectiveness of abstinence-only sex education. I tend to believe that contraception and abstinence are two ways of taking responsibility, although I also believe that most teenagers are generally not emotionally ready for intimacy. In any case, the individual is welcome to believe that premarital sex is immoral, but promoting that belief should not be the goal of sex education.

6. You're right that most Christians do not read Genesis and 2 Timothy as justifications for patriarchy. Unfortunately, the ones who do often are prominent ones, such as the Promise Keepers and James Dobson in his book "Love for a Lifetime."

RJones,

1) Homosexual discrimination - I'm assuming you are referring to the gay marriage issue. Here are the %'s of voters in each state that voted FOR a ban on same sex marriage in 2006/2007: (AZ) 49%, (CO) 56%, (ID) 63%, (SC) 78%, (SD) 52%, (TN) 81%, (VA) 57%, (WI) 59%. I'm no geography major, but I'm pretty sure AZ, CO, ID, SD, and WI are clearly not part of the "Bible belt". It's obvious from these statistics that homosexual discrimination is NOT a Christian or religious issue. Unless, of course, you are willing to concede that the U.S. is a Christian state. Furthermore, the Bible refers to homosexuality as a sin, and many Christians believe the same way. HOWEVER, that belief does not equate to discrimination.

2) I have no idea what discrimination you refer to against non-believers and those of other faiths. Could you give me an example?

3) Stem cell research. Obviously, I can't speak for everybody, but Christians aren't against stem cell research (which uses adult cells/tissues). I know that's what CNN, Hillary, and all the other left wing rhetoric monkey's have told you, but it's not true. Christians, by and large, are against EMBRYONIC stem cell research. There's a BIG difference.

4) Real science - If you'd like to believe you're a monkey, that's fine. But please show me ANY source where humans have been DEFINITIVELY linked to apes. Don't bother, because you won't find it.

5) I believe what promotes promiscuity are videos to 6th graders about putting condoms on cucumbers. Sexually active children are a problem for both religious and non-religious families. The difference, of course, is that secular society has washed its hand of the problem by claiming that we're hard wired for sex and too weak to control our own impulses.

6) Women should stay at home? I'm sorry, but that's just absurd. I would guesstimate that the number of Christians who follow that logic out of some sort of Biblical adherence are extremely small in numbers.

cecil wrote:
"Mr Mark

"I agree with most of the things you said in your first post, but I'm not as certain as you seem to be that humankind is better now than in earlier times. Yes, there are many examples of compassion, mercy, etc. from both individuals and nations. On the other hand, the amount of human created misery (even in "advanced countries) is stageringly huge."

I think the point I was trying to make (which was obviously lost on Jimmy in his response to my post) was that acts of depravity that happen today are seen for what they are, ie: acts of depravity that lie well outside the norm of human behavior. Compare that to Biblical times when acts of depravity were the norm and accepted as a legitimate way of running a government or, worse, following god's laws.

Men will continue to do evil, but we no longer accept evils that were considered quite normal in the ancient world. My response was to a poster who averred that man had become more depraved since Biblical times. Yes, there is misery in the world, but misery is relative to its times, is it not? Americans living in American squalor are living the life of Riley compared to what passes for wealth in most of the world and what was considered a comfortable life in the ancient world.

What has changed dramatically since ancient times is our perception of human dignity and human rights. We no longer believe some humans are better than others, or that an elite is entitled to a life that most people are not allowed to aspire to. We don't propose that one human life is worth more than another human life, at least in principle if not in practice.

If it was true that mankind had become more depraved since Biblical times, then we should be going in the opposite direction of that which I've outlined above. We should be seeing a version of the Biblical social order on steroids.

I refuse to buy into the hopeless gambit of the religionists that mankind's very nature is evil, and that we can do nothing to improve our condition unless we give over our intelligence, our will, our determination and our better nature to some imaginary god who is going to fix the evil that he created. It's a cop out and, worse, it's defeatist.

I believe the evidence is overwhelming that we have advanced and that our nature has changed for the better...and we've done it without the help of the imaginary gods of the world's socio-political religions that seek to co-opt our birthright of goodness and compassion for their own depraved ends.

DW - Atheists don't have a set "view of life." The only thing atheists are sure to have in common is lack of belief in God.

And the word "smug" was meant to be descriptive. I see signs of it in your posts and it's written all over Cal Thomas' face.

Brambleton,

How about discrimination against homosexuals, non-believers or those of other faiths? Completely unsupportable but for religious reasons. How about opposition to stem cell research? The dangerous push towards conflict in the Middle East war as a sign of the return of Jesus? How about ignoring real science (evolution, global warming) because of the perception that they disprove religious beliefs? The movement among some to withhold the HPV (cancer) vaccine because of the ridiculous fear that it will promote promiscuity? The continued belief that women should stay at home. I don't need to cite scripture because believers can justify anything with the bible.

Not all Christians hold these ideas to be sure. But these are examples of how radical believers want to push us back to the dark ages.

E Favorite

Did not say there is no relevance also on our potential in this life, now did I. Your oblique allusion is obvious. Words such as smug are only meant to ridicule. Therefore, I see your views as more curt and cutting than a person who professes a belief in the God you deny, who realizes they may have a problem now and then with things they go thru in life or things they say, yet have a humility about them to admit to their God and mankind around them that they are human, they make mistakes and they strive to do better. If I were an outside observer, I would choose their way of life over an atheists view anyday.

DW - the only thing there "isn't" in atheism is a God. Individual atheists can have hope or not and certainly many atheists and other non-christians, can, as you say "...see the reality that there is no other creature like mankind, how wonderfully we were made, and the potential we possess."

Many focus on expressing human potential, here on earth, instead of feeling smug about knowing the right words to say to get into heaven.

This was stated earlier in this thread:

>>In other words, Allmighty God is so insecure that unless you believe in him and all of the doctrines, he is going to punish you.

Not true. All will have a chance to know God. Punishment, if you will, will be man's decision solely. There is no human in hell or heaven right now. The bible, though, speaks of 3 resurrections, a renewal of the earth (as Cal Thomas stated) and no more death.

>> As the creator of the cosmos, he set it up that way.

He made man a free moral agent for a purpose.

>>How can anyone really believe this nonsense?

Quite frankly, very easily. There is no hope in atheism. Consider that Christians just put more thought and value into human excellence and potential, and see the reality that there is no other creature like mankind, how wonderfully we were made, and the potential we possess. Any person, Christian or atheist, that doesnt think this...put the blame on their thought process, dont put it on true Christian ethics.

Look at that smug, self-satisfied face of Cal Thomas. He is the ultimate Pharisee.

Those who believe in an end of the world as the Bible indicates are people who cannot accept reality and search for fantasy.

It should worry all of us that fantasists and nutcases are so prevalent among our fellow citizens.

I admit that I am strongly motivated to point out the inconsistencies and irrationalities of fundamentalist religions of all sorts because I believe that they are bad for the world.

Fundamentalists be they Christian, Jewish, or Muslim advocate disastrous social and political policies on the basis of "Truths" based on "Holy" texts of doubtful provenance, texts which in the Jewish and Christian case I know quite well. If people like Brambleton find it offensive and think I am mocking them, that is too bad. However respect has to be earned on the basis of something other than antiquity or truth claims based on something undefinable they call "faith".

Mr Mark

I agree with most of the things you said in your first post, but I'm not as certain as you seem to be that humankind is better now than in earlier times. Yes, there are many examples of compassion, mercy, etc. from both individuals and nations. On the other hand, the amount of human created misery (even in "advanced countries) is stageringly huge.
I am not particularly concerned about what Cal or Kenny believe because at this time they don't have much power to persecute me or discriminate against me (but they may be getting there and some fundamental Christians (not Kenny or Cal) certainly would if they could).
What really bothers me is the vastly overworked assertion, "I know". The truth, I think, is that most of us don't KNOW nearly as much as we think we know and claim to know.
Now, concerning the end of the world, I BELIEVE Cal Thomas is dead wrong. I agree with other posters who believe it will end with a man made disaster or from natural causes (meteor, sun expansion, moon shift...) But I have been careful to avoid the "I know" assertion.

Brambleton: Thanks for the response.

As a ghost who casually follows these boards, it seems like some of the "drivel" you described might be be getting under your skin? If you are a Christian, as you claim to be (I don't have reason to doubt you) I would encourage you not to fall into the the never ending back and forth. Based on their own belief system and the command to "love their enemies", Christians are to be held to a higher standard in conversation, even in an anonymous debate setting such as this. Would you agree?

I've learned that despite the colorful names we hide behind, there are real people on the other side of these postings. Some of them have good reason to trash Christians and their belief system with raw emotion. The pain is real, the offense to them is genuine, I guarantee it!

Anyways, I don't specifically argue for or against any belief system, not on these boards anyways. Maybe someday if I stick around. Doesn't make me any better than anyone else. I am more interested in reading thoughtful (or comical) opinions from all sides and doing my part on occasion to keep the marketplace of ideas open to all points of view. I'd say that despite the attempts of some on the right or left, this is a forum open for all types of opinion. Sure a troll may thrash a thoughtful commentary with nonsence. That doesn't mean the nonsence has to be answered or even read. We have to give people, even those with nothing to add but hatred freedom of speech, but we don't have to listen.

Regards

"Oh, McChurch, you've done it again!"

Ghost,

I don't get the opportunity to engage in religious debate with secularists very often. I figured that an "On Faith" forum would be as good a place as any. There have been some good discussions here and there, and I've picked up some different points of view that I probably had not thought about before.

Sadly, however, you'll find mostly drivel in a lot of these threads. There are a number of posters whose only contribution to any question posed by the panel is to demean, mock, and ridicule a particular religion. And then they turn around and complain about Christians being mean. Shocking. Perhaps they're intellectually challenged and should stick with watching "Are you smarter than a 5th grader".

RJones,

Could you please list the "archaic superstitions" that would return us to the dark ages? If you are referring to Christianity, reference to specific passages in the Bible will suffice. Thanks!

"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary; to one without faith,no explanation is possible." - Aquinas

Tonio said: "an individual is entitled to refuse to be defined by what others say about him or her".

That is an excellent quote! Probably the best one I've read on these boards.

Brambleton: You asked BAAL about his motivations, I was wondering, why do you post frequently on these boards?

Regards to you both.

Believer: "For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing to be wise, they became fools."

Paul should be careful who he calls fools.

But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire. -- Mark 5:22 (KJV)

Twit

Jimmy,

The real world. What about you?

Or aren't you aware that slavery is illegal everywhere in the world? That billions of women are free to have jobs, to vote, to make something of their lives? That child labor is also illegal in most of the world? That freedom of information and travel means that I can have friends anywhere in the world?

There are certainly places where very bad things are happening every day. But this is nothing compared to 2000 years ago. Despite those whose adherence to archaic superstitions would return us to the dark ages, humanity has grown. There's still a long way to go, but to close your eyes to the reality of how far we come is to dishonor those who've sacrificed to get us here.

Or are you just bent out of shape because of the occasional breast on television?

Jimmy,

The real world. What about you?

Or aren't you aware that slavery is illegal everywhere in the world? That billions of women are free to have jobs, to vote, to make something of their lives? That child labor is also illegal in most of the world? That freedom of information and travel means that I can have friends anywhere in the world?

There are certainly places where very bad things are happening every day. But this is nothing compared to 2000 years ago. Despite those whose adherence to archaic superstitions would return us to the dark ages, humanity has grown. There's still a long way to go, but to close your eyes to the reality of how far we come is to dishonor those who've sacrificed to get us here.

Or are you just bent out of shape because of the occasional breast on television?

Jimmy
You need to read and understand the atrocities of the religious wars in europe. One reason people of europe aren't very religious is because they have suffered at the hands of the god fearing leaders. All the wars today have a religious theme to them. Most everything bad has happened because of religion one way or the other. I think it's because religious people don't respect this life. Since they will live at the right hand of god for ever and ever and have all the love and joy and peace and be happy ever after. Maybe if you had more respect for this life we wouldn't have so many wars.

Believer wrote:

"Perfect love was shown to us when God sent His own Son to die for us so that by merely accepting this love, we may have eternal life in God's presence."

I've never understood this. God torments his Son so that people can enter God's paradise.

Why not just let them in?

Oh no! Someone didn't just bring up The Sucker's Bet...er...I mean Pascal's Wager Again, did they?

Some of the standard objections are summarized here:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/pascal-wager/#5

RJONES, What world are you living in?

Pacal's wager is a crock. What if Islam is correct? Aren't you really ticking off your god by being a Christian? What you lose by making this wager is your time, your money, your efforts, and you live your entire life believing a lie. I prefer the truth of reality.

Brambleton, Adam and Eve didn't exist, so the whole "fall" thing doesn't make any sense however you look at it.

Jimmy, what a pessimistic, cynical view. In general, people are undoubtedly more humane, more considerate towards others, than people were 2000 years ago. That you don't see that says lots about you and your philosophy.

Scott-

So your Christian God is OK with someone reducing "His" offer of salvation to a crapshoot? Is it all a hedge to save your a$$?

Brambleton

You are probably correct that there are more productive ways I could be spending time.

Fundamentalist religions will live on no matter how irrational, and their adherents will continue to attack anyone else who is not of their sect.

Pascal's wager. The Christian is "betting" that there is an afterlife, a new earth, and that it is gained through Jesus. If indeed he is correct, then he gains everything. If he is wrong, as many writing to this blog believe, then the Christian loses nothing.

The non-believer is "betting" that there is no afterlife and no new earth. If he is right, he neither gains nor loses anything; but if he is wrong, he loses big time.

I like the first bet better.

Mr. Mark Wrote
"Do daughters normally get pregnant by their fathers (like Lot's daughters) in our depraved times?" YES. "Do we condone slavery and the owning of people as property, to be used, abused, sexually assaulted and killed on a whim as they did in Biblical times?" YES "Do we sanction slavery?" YES. "Do today's leaders have multiple wives and concubines as did the great moral leaders of the Bible?" YES. "Do we crucify thousands of political dissidents as did the Romans?" YES. "Do we utterly slaughter people on a genocidal level and consider it all in a day's work for the Lord?" YES."The god of Israel demanded that Israel kill all of the men and children of their enemies and force the women into slavery. What equivalent is there to such god-sanctioned crimes in our "more-depraved times?" Oh let me see, how about beheading innocents for Allah, or blowing up little children for Allah. When you say "WE" you are including the entire world, not just America, so the answer is YES. NEXT QUESTION?

A few of things:

1) It's silly to say Cal and I blame man, and then turn around and blame religion and politics for mankinds ills. As if religion and politics were not made up of people - you're putting the cart before the horse...we have the religion and the politics that we deserve - BOTH sides.

(It's kind of like Hillary going on with her "anti"-government speech. I look at her and think, "but you ARE the government".)

2) The "fall" of man is this - God made man, above all else, free. God made man in His image, as He intended. He gave man a natural law to live by, and man chose to live outside that law - to decide for himself what is right and what is wrong. To be his own god. This is the fall of man, and the meaning of "pride goeth before the fall". MAN chose. God, out of love, simply offers. It is up to us to choose to accept or reject.

3) With due respect to my non-Catholic Christian brothers and sisters, I must stick with 2000 years of sound theology (yeah - I know there were some blunders along the way, but all in all...). Anyway, there were many times where Jesus tied salvation to works ("Go and sell all you have" "Do as my Father commands you" "Love your enemies" etc). And there were believers who he said would not be saved ("Then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in your company. You taught in our streets.' But he will answer, 'I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Away from me you evil doers'."

My personal relationship with Christ led me to Catholicism...and my personal relationship with Christ teaches me that I am not to judge who goes to Heaven or Hell...that is God's business. And if God finds an atheist worthy of Heaven (and I believe with all my heart that ALL things are possible with God) well then who am I to question His judgement.

Late in her life, a reporter asked Mother Theresa what she thought was wrong with the Catholic Church today. She replied, "You and I".

And I say, if you want to really know what's wrong with the world, go look in a mirror. (I know, I know...it hurts me too.)

Why hasn't god made us better? Why is god not helping end starvation, diseases like cancer, alzheimer's and thousand more. Why aren't religious leaders happy or religious people for that matter. Why all the doom and gloom. Is it part of his plan, if so it's a crummy plan. This world will end by either a comet hitting it real hard or the sun will swell up and burn it to a crisp. It is a story that has taken on a life of it's own and embellished by leaders past and present. How else do you control the masses if you can't threaten them with eternal damnation. Some of us buy it some of don't. Why are you christians so hostile towards non-believers, and condemn then to hell to fry like bacon fat. Then get glee out of the idea.

I've never met a born-again that wasn't at the end of his rope in life before he gave it all to Jesus. If I were Jesus I wouldn't want you guys following me. I'd move in the middle of the night and not leave a forwarding address and change my name. You hang everything you do on him and claim you're a sinner. That's it I'm free can't you feel the love. It's time people start holding themselves responsible for their action and quit blaming on Jesus.

Jimmy wrote:

"Mankind has not become more compassionate, loving , moral, etc. etc. Fact is we are more depraved now than ever."

Oh, really? Why not set aside the bromides and think about it for a bit. Are we more depraved than the people of Israel were in the Bible? Do daughters normally get pregnant by their fathers (like Lot's daughters) in our depraved times? Do we condone slavery and the owning of people as property, to be used, abused, sexually assaulted and killed on a whim as they did in Biblical times? Do we sanction slavery? - because Jesus did. Do today's leaders have multiple wives and concubines as did the great moral leaders of the Bible? Do we crucify thousands of political dissidents as did the Romans? Do we utterly slaughter people on a genocidal level and consider it all in a day's work for the Lord?

Where were the great movements of compassion in Biblical times when the known world banded together to address universal disasters, as the present world did in the wake of the tsunami of 2004, and as humanity does on a daily basis when catastrophes hit around the world? Who were the Biblical leaders who set aside their political agendas to help their enemies in times of great need and tragedy?

When did thew god of Israel ever bestow a blessing upon the enemies of Israel?

Wars still rage, but it is now a war crime to commit rape and murder a defeated civilian population. The Romans did it regularly. The god of Israel demanded that Israel kill all of the men and children of their enemies and force the women into slavery. What equivalent is there to such god-sanctioned crimes in our "more-depraved times?"

"If you put your faith in mankind to fix all that is wrong with the world you will be sadly disappointed."

Faith doesn't enter into it. Faith, my friend, is the most overrated commodity in the world. And by the looks of it, YOU are the one who is sadly disappointed, not me.

"JESUS IS LORD."

Empty words to those who don't believe the superstitions, words that carry no more import than the off-handed, "have a nice day."

You are welcome to the shackles of your religious delusions, the same shackles I broke many years ago. The world is a wonderful place and mankind helps to make it so. Too bad you can't see that.

Mr. Mark wrote,
"The truth is that mankind today is better than the mankind that inhabited the Bronze Age, and we're certainly better, smarter and more compassionate than the infantile and jealous gods of our earlier imaginings." Wrong! Mankind has not become more compassionate, loving , moral, etc. etc. Fact is we are more depraved now than ever. If you put your faith in mankind to fix all that is wrong with the world you will be sadly disappointed. JESUS IS LORD.
peace & love

"Personally, when I speak to friends, and even family, my beliefs about Hell are not intended as hate speech."

And I appreciate you saying that. My point is really this - an individual is entitled to refuse to be defined by what others say about him or her.

Your anger at our belief reveals the evil that is in your heart? It's the same sort of anger that Jesus faced when he walked this earth. He IS real.

God has revealed Himself through creation so that no one, repeat no one, is without excuse. You each personally know there is a God because otherwise you would have no concept of right or wrong, love or hatred. To deny God, you have to lie to yourself about what you instinctively know is the truth.

The dark beauty of our existence is that God did give us free will with the choice to accept the truth and walk in the light, or to ignore the truth and stumble in the darkness. Perfect love was shown to us when God sent His own Son to die for us so that by merely accepting this love, we may have eternal life in God's presence.

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing to be wise, they became fools."

Romans 1:20-22

Kenny wrote:

"First of all, God did not "screw up". Man did. It was man who fell...not God. Stop blaming Him for what we've done."

Religion is the theft of our innate goodness.

Man no more "fell" than god exists. Christianistas like Kenny & Cal (sounds like a Xian Country Group, doesn't it?) are more than ready to blame mankind for the ills that have been visited upon the Earth by the politics of religion and religion's unholy trinity of fear, ignorance and guilt. Read their rantings and ask yourself if you'd buy a used car from them.

God didn't screw up because he doesn't exist. Mankind didn't fall, it evolved.

It's amazing that people living in the 21st century can still cling to the intellectually challenged superstitions of a bunch of Bronze Aged nomads who would have a hard time debating a present-day 5th grader. It's as if the knowledge set accumulated in the past 2000 years didn't exist.

The truth is that mankind today is better than the mankind that inhabited the Bronze Age, and we're certainly better, smarter and more compassionate than the infantile and jealous gods of our earlier imaginings.

Mankind fell? Give me a break.

Candide Isn't that nice that you are finally living up to bambleton's approval. From the little I've read from you, you sound like a devout christian and it has taken you a while to please another devout christian. Congratulation are in order here.
And
Adam wasn't perfect because he and Eve committed the first sin. Now this sin had to be committed or this whole die for our sins routine would never work. As explained in another post Adam and Eve went from perfect to imperfect. This was explained to some of us in another post. So is adam and Eve pewrfect or not. It gets confusing for the story tellers and the listeners.

Tonio,

I hear you brother. Perhaps Christians need to better convey their message and non-Christians need to listen more earnestly. Personally, when I speak to friends, and even family, my beliefs about Hell are not intended as hate speech. On the contrary, it saddens me deeply that I might not ever see them again in Heaven. I'm guessing that, as with any religion, the actions/words of a few have contaminated those of the many.

Elissa,

Perhaps you may be right and we're all worm food. In that case, none of us is worse for wear. But if you're wrong . . . .

Hehehe - I haven't read all of the postings people have put up, but I've noticed a seemly large increase in post by persons within On Faith that don’t ascribe to the teachings of the Bible, Torah, Qu’ran, etc. (I wouldn’t want to say they are un-believers because they obviously believe in something! (ie- not to believe in the religious institutions))
Anyways, I think that often these posts seem to only want to persuade those that do believe in religions to see their argument for why they shouldn’t believe. But how does that really help with the discussion for the question posted? I would assume that if you don’t believe that the world will end due to a higher power, then you would say that the sun will expand to become a red giant – destroy earth – and that will be that! (or please let me know otherwise)
I think it’s great to discuss what other people believe and to question the reasons as such (it should make individual beliefs stronger, if you are truly interested in the truths and fundamentals of your beliefs), but I feel like we get sidetracked in the arguments here sometimes. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great discussion and a terrific way to get people riled up, but sometimes the arguments get so ‘nit-picky’ and away from the question for discussion, its ridiculous.
Move away from the nit-picky details and please tell us how you think the world will end! Do you think that how it is described by Cal Thomas will be true (ie – a new world order perhaps)? Do you think this ‘new world’ is even possible? Do you see the question as an idea of destruction or re-invention?

Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.

- Mark Twainm, Notebook, 1879

Four generations of my evangelical midwestern
relatives, teachers and businessmen and farmers, have watched for the 'end'...and often saw the clear signs of it. But it's bunk. Just bunk.
Who smart enough to put those markings on tropical fish would be stupid enough to follow the stuff outlined in the Bible? Really, it's too silly.

I love to hear people use the word "know" when talking theology. All that you know is that a book was written. Please verify your truths before you attack the scientific truth. Who says that I screwed up? I didn't do anything. Your idea of sin does not apply to me...only you who believe.

"And explain to me how the threat of eternal damnation can mean ANYTHING to somebody who doesn't believe? If you don't believe in Christianity, you should care less if you're going to Hell because you don't believe it exists in the first place."

Brambleton, I see the answer as simple. The believers are using their beliefs to define unbelievers in a hateful way. The doctrine of eternal damnation is a synonym for the believers' hateful definition of unbelievers, even if the believers don't see themselves as hating unbelievers. What is important is not what hell means to the unbelievers, but what hell means to the believers. The believers could just as well used secular reference point that means the same thing, such as proclaiming that unbelievers deserve to have their children killed.

Candide,

Continuous thanks for your insightful commentary. I have to admit that your posts are getting better. I see you've stepped up and found the opportunity to slip in a four-syllable word at the end of your sentence. Bravo!

RJones,

Wasn't Adam both perfect and provided the nature of free will? And what's the difference between a Christian saying "God's ways are mysterious" and a secularist stating "I don't know"? There's no difference. It's just vernacular. Neither you nor I have the answer to every single question on Earth. I apologize on behalf of the Christians out there who couldn't provide detailed explanations for every question you've ever asked.

For the ones who don't believe Jesus (God) exists, try these websites. www.catholic.com and www.cuf.org or go to any search engine and type in Catholic Apologetics. Also, go to any search engine and type in coming home network. That that site comes up click on conversion stories. Also, for those who don't believe that there is going to be an end days, go to www.smwa.org God Bless Everyone

Brambleton, who said anything about a "perfect person" being someone without feeling or emotion and lacking freewill? I sure didn't.

I can't choose to defy gravity. Does that limit my freewill? Of course not. Just as it wouldn't mean I lack freewill if I couldn't choose to hurt other people.

By definition, an omnipotent (all powerful) being could create mankind with the full range of emotions and freewill without giving them the ability to hurt others.

If your god couldn't create "perfect" people who also have freewill, then he's not very omnipotent is he?

(This is the part where believers typically say "God's ways are mysterious" and bail out of the discussion.)

Cal Thomas is a vulgar, bible-thumping fraud. No one should take him seriously.

Ba'al,
You seem to be searching. Don't be so hard on yourself. Jesus did say, above all laws is Love, and all other Laws(meaning God's law) basically come from that one law. If you think about that it actually does makes sense.
So what is the faith of Jesus Christ? LOVE.
Plain and simple. That's is all there is to it.
In the last letter you seemed to be mixed up on law and faith. Don't forget Jesus was a jew speaking to Jews. At that time there were so many Laws the Jewish people had to follow in order to be saved. Jesus' message was, again, LOVE. People critsized Jesus because he sat down to eat without following the Jewish Law of washing his hands. He responded back, it is not what goes into your mouth that defiles a man but what comes out! If you can see, Jesus always speaks of the heart. If the heart is defiled(with hate or other sins against love), the soul is defiled, and that filth is what will come out. But if the heart is pure (filled Love, God's Love, Love for humanity) then that purity is what will come out.
Just my two cents worth. God Bless You.

I don't see this onfaith blog lasting much longer. Christians are reading how many people really feel about religions and are able to express their distain for it. Soon enough some christian group(s) will pull there money out of some form of support and this page will disappear.

Kenny,

As a Baptist, this is where you and I will disagree. I believe that the Bible is very specific regarding eternal life. You MUST have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. Period. All of the good works in the world don't get you anything. Of course, good works are implicit to a believing Christian.

BAAL,

For the life of me I don't understand why you still post. I've been reading these threads for weeks/months and all you offer is degrading, demeaning, "Christianity is absurd" commentary. Who are you trying to convince? You or the reader?

And explain to me how the threat of eternal damnation can mean ANYTHING to somebody who doesn't believe? If you don't believe in Christianity, you should care less if you're going to Hell because you don't believe it exists in the first place.

RJones,

Yes. God should have made us to be perfect, without feeling or emotion, and lacking free will. God doesn't force you to sin. That is your choice using the free will that has been provided to you. The only people to blame are ourselves. Referring to the human race as "victims" is completely absurd.

Bruce, an omnipotent, omniscient god who "loves us" could give us that choice without any kind of a "fall". Blaming man for the ineptitude of a god who can't seem to do anything right (wasn't the Flood supposed to free mankind of all the bad people?) is a "blame the victim" mentality and one of the biggest curses of Christianity.

OH JESUS PLEEZE WHAT A HOKUS POKUS ALL THIS RELIGOUS BS IS!! GET OUT OF IT GET A LIFE, GOD/JESUS SHE JUST DOESNT EXIST ITS A SCAM RUN BY MONEYGRABBING HOMOPHOBIC PREACHERS/BISHOPS/MINISTERS/CAL ITS A JOKE! CAL DONT YOU REMEMBER I TOLD YOU THERE WAS A OPENING FOR YOU AT THE CIRCUS IF YOU GET A NEW HAIRPIECE!!

On the other hand, now I am truly confused because now I read that I am to be judged by my works:

For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. Matthew 16.27

But then I read

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. -- Galatians 2:16

and

A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -- Romans 3:28

I have a headache.

And if you have DONE certain things, it is all over.
If you are a male who has had sex, or a female, you are toast:

...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. -- Revelation 14:3-4

On the other hand, believing arcane doctrine is not enough. You are also REQUIRED to eat Jesus' body and drink his blood.

Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. -- John 6:53-54

According to several passages in the New Testament, in order to be "saved" you have to "believe" certain things. If you do not believe these things, you are toast. Here are a few examples:

A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ. -- Galatians 2:16

A man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. -- Romans 3:28

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved. -- Acts 16:31

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life -- John 3:36

Whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. -- John 3:16

Now according to this view of the universe, Mr. Carcatera's first murderer, who is truly sorry for his acts, is still going to hell unless he "believes" that Jesus was the son of god. So is the Dalai Llama, for that matter.

In other words, Allmighty God is so insecure that unless you believe in him and all of the doctrines, he is going to punish you. As the creator of the cosmos, he set it up that way.

How can anyone really believe this nonsense?

Cable TV had a special on revelations and one biblical scholar stated the writer was writing about an impending attack on the empire that would completely change the way thing were. All this talk about divine influence just can't be proved or disproved so some leaders have always been able to sway the ignorant into believing impending doom. It make for better drama. How in the world can so called intelligent people believe this without the least bit of questioning. Today more people are educated and don't believe in all. Notice how the bible is full of revenge and punishment. Why didn't god create a perfect world from the beginning. Please don't tell me we are infallible I'll scream until my eyes bleed. We are basic animals and we act as basic animals. Survival of those that can adapt. Not necessarily the strongest, but he smartest.

Rjones,
God loves us and desires our love. You have, and must have, a choice. You cannot truly love if forced.

Kenny tells us "First of all, God did not "screw up". Man did."

That's a cop-out. If I hand a loaded gun to a child I'm responsible for whatever that child might do with it.

Not that' I'm blaming God, really. I'd have to believe He (She? It?) exists before I could do that. But the fact of the world's imperfections argues powerfully against the existence of an omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent deity. If God desires a perfect world, why not create one? Why not build in a fail safe so man couldn't screw it up? If a perfect, incorruptible world is possible at some point why not start with it?

Is this beyond God's power? Then he is not omnipotent. Did He not know things would turn out the way they have? Then He is not omniscient. And if it was within his power to create perfect, incorruptible world and he knew the world he was creating would be corrupted by man but he went ahead and built it anyway then He is certainly not benevolent.

None of this disproves the existence of some other kind of deity; an evil, or indifferent god or a limited demiurge, a no longer in existence "first mover" or something, but the traditional omni-x-3 God of Christianity seems pretty unlikely.

As for taking responsibility for our own actions that is absolutely a must, especially if there is no God to clean up after us. Global warming, thermonuclear weapons, ethnic and religious hatred are human problems; this is our mess and we have to fix it. For our children's sake.

Regards

A Hermit

P.S. I have totally rejected God, Kenny. Does that make me evil?

Mr. Thomas,

I don not believe in no religion. But if this next world you believe in does not have politicians, taxes, and elections then count me in!

If God created man exactly as he intended and knew that Man was going to "fall", then why isn't the failure God's fault? Couldn't an omnipotent being have created a man with free will who wouldn't fall?

If you believe that a god created mankind with the intention that man be perfect and live in a perfect paradise, then god is to blame when his own creation fails. If a company sells you a product which utterly fails at its purpose, it's the company's fault, isn't it?

I would actually like to address some of the comments rather than what Cal said (which I agree with).

First of all, God did not "screw up". Man did. It was man who fell...not God. Stop blaming Him for what we've done.

As to "non-believers": all people are equal in the eyes of God...a "non-believer" who has a good heart, treats his fellow man with respect, and is generally a person of good will, will be welcomed into the Kingdom. This is what Catholics refer to as "baptism by desire". Only evil people, who have totally rejected God, go to hell.

Also, one must rid oneself of the notion God "sends" people to hell ("God wills not the death of any sinner."). We CHOOSE (you see...abortion isn't the only thing we get to "choose") to go to hell by our own actions. For example: two murderers are executed. One is sorry for his crime and accepts his punishment. The other is rebelious, isn't sorry, and doesn't care about what they did or who they hurt. Would it be "right" for both men to enter Heaven? Of course not.

Unfortunately, it's easier to blame God than it is to accept responsibility for our own actions. It's easier to refer to someone going to hell as a "punishment" rather than seeing it for what it is...justice.

I wish people would read the Catechism of the Church before they go spouting off about that which they do not know.

Norrie makes an excellent point. Fundamentalist Christianity interprets much of Revelation as unbelievers getting their just desserts. What a hateful notion. At least when science describes the eventual end of the Sun billions of years from now, it doesn't claim that the event is some kind of punishment.

A demiuge even...

Of course, Cal's hope is based on something written at the time of the Roman Empire that was actually referring to something else.

It is a poor god indeed that has to be believed in to be benevolent. Such a god would be far too human to be a god.

So, what happened to "the perfect world God intended and, in fact, originally created"? Did God screw up? Did he fail to foresee the wars and diseases, greed and inhumanity? How could an omnipotent, omniscient God create such a mess?

Christian theology is so inconsistent when you look at it closely...

Cal,

What do you believe happens to the nonbelievers?

Are they part of this beautiful new world?

Or are they way down in the boiling hot steerage of the ship divine?