Jesus Would Be Offended by Church Discrimination Against Women

Hi Cal,

can't wait 'til you get that radio gig we're all giggles hearing about. . . You against the fat rushy limburger, oh my, what an event! . . . is it true, or merely rooomer!!!

I'm so happy for you and you best friend ralph, (Oh! better not go there!!!)

See you soon.

Excellent cherry-picking Cal! Now, what about all the contrary verses?

MMK you boob. Read the first line of my post then scroll up and find the letter from Victoria, the person that the note was addressed to. Find someone to explain to you what is going on. Jeebus! And you think you can understand the bible? LOL

Ambassador in Christ:
Sorry I'm so late getting back to you. Now what was that? The Bible proves Jesus is not the son of the supernatural being Moses made the deal with and gained the wealth of earth, became the biggest shot in the history of the world by leading the Israelites to hell? Is that a matter of faith or fact? Which part(s)?

Devil, hell, means chaos A HOUSE DIVIDED AGAINST ITSLEF by definition is chaotic and cannot win, (now take the USA with all that help from Devil's agents). Hell is not orderly, a single dictator like heaven. It's chaotic like the fire that burns therein.

You don't suppose Jesus presented the Pharisees with a dodge like you're making right now, "look at all this logic" sort of thing? Would Devil lie? Did Jesus cast out a demon or was that an act like evangelical ministers get caught doing now and then? Would son of Devil lie too, do phony miracles?

Tell me Ambassador, what is the miracle so great that Devil can't do it? Is it a stain on the subway wall, an image on a grilled cheese sandwich? Don't you think the supernatural being that did the one on the grilled cheese got a little hot doing it? Of course the pope calls for and gets miracles to verify that dead people are with the supernatural being that lives in fire, the fire of hell. Yeah, but who does them, God?

Last chance, (maybe, you hope) http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul for you to realize which supernatural being religion worships, honors, adores, glorifies and makes sacrifices to appease. You still have time to save yourself but I can't promise anything what with your reluctance to accept God and insistance on being Devil's bud.

I tire quickly of the old agage that states that those who believe in the God of the Bible are somehow more close minded thant those believe in something else.

It would be much more intelectually honest if all of us would admit to our own presuppositions and cultural conditioning. Honest dialogue with another begins with honest self evaluation.

It is a whole lot easier to point to all the evidence that supports our arguments rather than honestly evaluate the evidience against our view point.

If the God of the Bible exists:

He has created us to be rational, relational, volitional, and emotional creatures.

Many great thinkers believed this and lived this.

Sure they often questioned the status quo.
Sure they faced the negative effects institutionalized religion.

Sure they fought against ignorance and institutionalized evil(even in their religious establishments

But, they did so BECAUSE they believed that being an image bearer meant that they were in explore and impact their world as rational/volitional/emotional/relational beings

If we are made in the image of that God (who is neither male or female..just "God" with atributes of both sexes...then it should affect the way we live. If core beliefs do not steer a life in a certain direction they are not core beliefs

Human beings have great capacity for good but also great capacity for self deception, self-promotion, and self delusion.

That is not limited to those with only a Judeo Christian mindset...it the price of being human. It is also something we all must be aware and be willing to face

I would suggest that anyone who takes the teachings of the Bible seriously (properly understood of course) are more open minded than than those who do not and choose to live with an unexamined faith/life...

In the 1st-3rd centuries...there were whole colonies of lepers...that no one wanted or cared for...but some Christians believed they had a sacred duty to love/care for them

Rhode Island began by a Christian statesmen as a colony where people could have religious freedom (in the face of perscution from the church of England)

Mother Theresa during a speech to the president of the US in talking about the evils of abortion told everyone in the room...not child is unwanted..send them to me!

There are places in the world where women are little more than property and Christians have been fighting against that

Martin Luther King was quite human but his views on civil rights came from his understanding of Jesus and the Bible

Some of those in the forefront of battling the sex/slave trade are evangelical Christians

I will not defend those who do evil in the name of God (Christian) or not.

But, to those who see things things from a different perspective...why just bring up the bad?...why won't you bring up the good?

Because must of us are comfortable in our belief system/core value bubble...and we will not rock the boat. We defend our point of view at all cost not matter the evidence.

It makes no difference what your belief system is...that is narrow/close mindedness

Change is scary, hard, and time/energy consuming

But my understanding of Jesus...demands that His followers leave thier comfort zone...wrestle with the complexities of life, death,pain, suffering, and belief to make a difference in this world.

If if the Bible is not true and God does not exist...The "supposed" teachings of Jesus have made millions of people better human beings

This is the crux of Cal's point. Knowing Jesus and applying the teachings ascribed to him affects how we treat one another...whether we black or white, rich or poor, men or women

The God of the Bible (if He exist) is big enough for any questions. So scrutinize away. Ask. Wrestle. Struggle.

Christianity has not always represented Jesus well. In fact at times we have done piss poor job.

But because Jesus has made a difference in many lives His teachings may be laughed at, argued with, and ignored but they cannot be denied because some have applied them and they have produce good

The question is Why?

RMS

Concerned-- Thanks for the link. I'll try to add this one to my reading list.

BGone-- I have observed your comments for a while now on numerous threads claiming that the God of the Bible is the Devil. I have read where you have claimed that Jesus is the Devil. In your most recent post on this thread, you stated: "The Bible is the constitution of Devil. Saying it's God's word is an insult to God."

This is a very old argument going all the way back to the days in which Jesus walked this earth. Matthew 12:24-32: "But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, "It is only by Beelzebul, the prince of demons, that this man casts out demons." Knowing their thoughts, he said to them, "Every kingdom divided against itself is laid waste, and no city or house divided against itself will stand. And if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons cast them out? Therefore they will be your judges. But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can someone enter a strong man's house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? Then indeed he may plunder his house. Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters. Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come."

The same basic argument that the Pharisees had you now take on as your own.

Truly, "what has been is what will be, and what has been done is what will be done, and there is nothing new under the sun." (Ecclesiastes 1:9).

Let us esteem each other higher than ourselves, let us be of one mind, let us be of one accord, let the Love and Mind of Christ abound in all of us. (Phil 4) 8 And now, dear brothers and sisters, let me say one more thing as I close this letter. Fix your thoughts on what is true and honorable and right. Think about things that are pure and lovely and admirable. Think about things that are excellent and worthy of praise. 9 Keep putting into practice all you learned from me and heard from me and saw me doing, and the God of peace will be with you.

God be with you all, I Love You and God Loves You

Ambassador for Christ,

You will have to buy JD Crossan and JL Reed's book, In Search of Paul, and then compare their conclusions to those of others you have found via Google. http://amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/105-0664204-5200437?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=In+Search+of+Paul&Go.x=4&Go.y=6 ($5.95 used). It is inexpensive and it got some great reviews. The book of course is about the complete life of St. Paul as best the authors can glean from the scriptural texts, archeology and history of the first century CE/AD.

JD Crossan's The Historical Jesus is another book to add to your reading list if you do not already have a copy.

"God created us in His image. He created us male and female. "

If one posits that God created us, then this is a logical statement.

What is not logical is that God is a "HE" -- after all, if we are created in the IMAGE of God, there is a 50-50 shot that God could be a SHE.

Actually, there is at least one interpretation of God is that there are many manifestations of God -- and among those are the male and the female.

Therefore, strictly speaking it is not necessarily 50-50.

It MAY be a more sensible view for those who believe in the concept of GOD to entertain the possibility that GOD is indeed a complexity -- a combination of HE and SHE -- neither one, nor the other.

I realize this conflicts with the idea of GOD as the "FATHER" but if GOD made us in GOD's image, it is highly unlikely that GOD would have made us reproduce in an unimage-like way. After all, image is image ... it makes no sense to say that GOD created us in GOD's image and then to deny the completeness of that image.

I think I need to start a new religion!!

christian middle age hygiene- islamic hygiene has been consistent for 1400 years- muslim men and women
perform nistinja every time they use the bathroom- completely cleansing themselves with running water- every time- also ghusl- after all sexual contact and menstruation- shower and hair washing- also wudu 5 times a day- cleansing the mouth- nose- face- ears- backof neck- head- face- hands and arms and feet- 3 times each 5 times a day.

What is this guy smoking?? Wake up Cal, you're dreaming.

I read a book once titled "Eunuchs For The Kingdom of Heaven". It was written by a disgruntled Catholic woman to chronicle her church's history of vilifying & subjugating women, & restricting & controlling sexuality. It's an eye-opener.

When I first read it, I was appalled. On the surface it sounded horribly clueless, like the men who wrote about women had no understanding or sympathy or respect for them. Some quotes - like Medieval priests forbidding post-menstrual women access to the church - made no sense. At first. Then I thought of Medieval hygiene, & how little bathing of the body was done regularly then, & I realized those men were vilifying the women for their smell, for their lack of cleanliness, when they should have been teaching them to bathe before they entered the church.

A lot of restrictions on women have to do with men's - and women's - lack of education. Ignorance causes intolerance. It didn't have anything to do with religion.

well done rms.
you hit the nail on the head have an open mind. I said something similar I think people believe want they want to believe and without that open mind you can never understand.

to bd for me your 52 lines of hatred are to much for anyone with a good moral sense to handle. YOUR WIFE AND CHILDREN ARE YOUR ENIMIES? WHAT KIND OF GOD IS THIS ALLAH. YOUR PEOPLE WILL SURELY PERISH WITH ANTISOCIAL STRUCTURE SUCH AS THAT. It is a loose moral fiber that does not support enhancement to your lives. Keep degrading your culture in this manner and it is inevitable that you will dehumanize yor culture.Never mind the theological side of this socially your culture and beliefs seem somewhat oppressed to say the least. Maybe as advanced as western civilizations midevil times. I have to go and pray for you now jesus loves you.

PEACE NOT WAR LIFE NOT DEATH LOVE NOT HATE bd IT IS HAPPINESS AND NOT DESPAIR. I AM dumbfounded by what you said.

PLEASE EVERYONE HERE PLEASE PRAY FOR THIS SOUL

mitch

My dear old friend, why did we ever disagree before? You must have changed!
Amen Brother. Amen. May Light and Truth continue to illuminate your path in this life and in the here after. Truly.

Bill Sanders:
Now what was I supposed to get from that web site I can't get at the 700 club, have it spoken so I don't strain my eyes reading it?

Your siurce is rotten, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul tells us your God that is "on again off again" as suits the Bible toter's latest claim about women's rights is really Devil. Devil is tricky, helped Moses trick the Israelites into following him and became the biggest shot there ever was with Devil's help. Now Devil has another trick so women can be put in their proper place, equal? The constitution already does that. All else is redundant and faulty.

The Bible is the constitution of Devil. Saying it's God's word is an insult to God. Good luck.

Everyone needs to read http://www.wadeburleson.com for an illustration of what Cal Thomas is saying needs changing.

Mr. Thomas writes "Those who follow Jesus would do well to honor and obey His instructions and example."

But I note again that in the early 1980s Mr. Thomas did not believe that women deserved a guarantee of equal protection under the law. I suggest that he is not sincere.

Nice try RMS. Look anywhere women have equal rights and you'll not find the Bible is behind it. It's the constitution of the United States of America. There wasn't enough Bibles in Japanese hands Aug 15, 1945 to light a fire. Equal rights for Japanese women came from where?

Was it vicars or an old soldier recently become God, Douglas MacArthur? Did he do what every conqueror in history before him did, claim Japan as His kingdom of God, himself? No, he treated the Japanese people freshly educated, (at the school of hard knocks) about kingdoms of God to a democracy with a constitution.

Freedom comes complete without vicars even though God does accompany freedom. It's not God that creates kingdoms of God, it's Devil that makes vicars do that. Only Devil has vicars, never God for God is a big girl that can take care of self. Not need help from boysan. That's what Fuji said and he knew what he was talking about. Real God is Lady Liberty.

Come on folks...

"Thinking" Christians acknowledge that the Bible needs to be "interpreted" properly to communicate truthfully what a passage means. Anyone can get the bible to say anything if they do not take in consideration the cultural, linquistics, and grammatical issues that prevail in any ancient text.

To say I believe the Bible to be true does not mean I ignore issues like symbolism, context, and author intent...

It means that I believe the Bible properly understood has great potential for good. I believe that following the teachings od Jesus have great transforming power.

Do I have culural biases...sure
Do I have presuppositions...absolutely
Do I struggle with hypocrisy...at times

But then again so does every other human being..whatever their belief system is.

Some of you condemn all "Christians" based on your interactions with a few

Yet, every time someone brings up the Crusades..or fundamentalism...or catholic priests molesting children....or anything else for that matter

I can point to a thousands of examples of good (hospitals, institutions of higher learning, soup kitchens, homes for runaways, orphanages, the underground railroad, civil rights) that began because someone had a conviction that what the bible says is true (properly understood)

One final thought about the equality of woman...look at anywhere in the world where Judeo-Christian thought is influencing or has influenced the culture and you will find a culture where woman are either on there way to equality or already there.

Look where it is supressed...you will find women suppressed as well.

If you find one person...who beleives in the teaching of Jesus and the Bible...who is genuine and passionate about her faith..who makes a difference in her community...then we have to assume some validity in the teachings of the Bible (properly understood).

There may not be as many as I would like...but there are many...

The venom in some of your writing let's me know that Christianity has been misrepresented to some of you in various...I truly and sorry about that...

but once again if there is one person who truly embodies the teachings of the Bible (and Jesus) like Mother Theresa...or Billy Graham...then it is logical to assume some validity to the Christianity.

Perhaps it is time to stop looking at all of the misrepresentations and look for the authentic ones...better yet read the scriptures with an open mind and ask God (if he exists) to show you the truth...no matter what it may cost you...or where it may lead...you might be suprised at the results

Chris:
Are you looking for an argument? Did I say there was just a few? 30 million is a bunch. Psychiatric medicine is due to be overwhelmed. The Bible is a proved hoax. That makes it official. It's a confidence man's tool.

Speaking of the south. How will those "good old boys" take being scammed all these years? Time will tell.

To david and bgone, I dont dispute the fact that con artists twist the truth. Christianity is abused in that way my point simply states that even good people read the words wrong. It is a matter of learning from the life god has given you. Through experience only will you know the true meaning of the scriptures. I know we are children of god and I also know my boundry with respecting the cross my opinion does not count only the truth that comes from my life experience. I will not say to myself or claim that any creature of god is inferior to another all creatures of god are equal in the eyes of god and although women have their role in gods plan they are in no way inferior to man. In fact god has given them the gift of giving birth a responsibility to family. Its give and receive not give and take. I would pitty anyone that would look upon one of gods creatures and think they or it was less significant than themselves. We are in no position to judge. God loves all creatures man and woman they same.
Peace Mitchell

It's hard to know what Jesus would think. He was egalitarian, yet at the time there was a common view that woman was inferior to man - God made Adam in his image, and Eve was made in Adam's image.

What a simpleton. This fellow is a baffoon.

BGone,

Well then there are millions who are in need of that psychiatric help, especially here in the South.

Chris:
Those who take the Bible literally word for word are in serious need of psychiatic help. Maybe the Democrats will make that an entitlement. Important people will be allowed to jump line. Bush first.

It's alright to eat shell fish as long as it's kosher. Same rule applies to ham.

Dear Concerned,

I have read the summary of the book, but I apologize that I do not have a copy of the book readily available. From the summary that I read, I see no basis for this assertion or for a later assertion that "a later follower of Paul inserted in I Corinthians that it is shameful for women to speak in church, but correct to ask their husbands for explanations at home (14:33-36)." From the summary I see many claims based upon the opinion of the authors, but I do not see any sources cited in an attempt to validate any of their claims.

Allow me to quote John MacArthur in regards to the claim that someone else wrote 1 Timothy: "The idea that a "pious forger" wrote the Pastoral Epistles faces several further difficulties: (1) The early church did not approve of such practices and surely would have exposed this as a ruse, if there had actually been one (cf. 2 Thess. 2:1, 2; 3:17). (2) Why forge three letters that include similar material and no deviant doctrine? (3) If a counterfeit, why not invent an itinerary for Paul that would have harmonized with Acts? (4) Would a later, devoted follower of Paul have put the words of 1:13, 15 into his master's mouth? (1 Tim 1:13 - "though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief." 1 Tim 1:15 - "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.") (5) Why would he include warnings against deceivers (2 Tim 3:13; Titus 1:10), if he himself were one? The evidence seems clear that Paul wrote 1 Timothy and Titus shortly after his release from his first Roman imprisonment (A.D. 62-64) and 2 Timothy from prison during his second Roman imprisonment (A.D. 66-67), shortly before his death."

Concerned:
Was Mary the mother of Jesus? Jesus came directly from father God was of being with father God. Mothers are handy, convient, even if they didn't birth the baby there's those dirty diapers and snotty noses to say nothing of the 2AM feedings. Men like father God don't need that.

The mother of Moses ADOPTED him. The hoax buster makes a compelling case they, Moses and Jesus are based upon the same individual that truns out to be a woman. Same person, same mother, adopted not birthed. Could that be so? Fits the verbiage.

If we take the Bible literally word-for-word, then yes women are thought of as subserviant to men. As has been pointed out in a number of posts, there is ample evidence to support this. Even though I am a Christian, I do not support this idea. But yeah, it's right there in the Bible. Sorry gals, it's true.

BTW, for those of you going out for seafood tonight I would recomend avoiding all shellfish for eating it is an "abomination"

Check out Leviticus for more fun facts (and of course God's Love!)

Anonymous,

With respect to Mary being the Mother of God, see the previous discussion at http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/2006/12/who_was_jesus/ about Jesus being the Son of God Most panelists did not accept this apparent embellishment of the NT i.e. therefore they also would not accept Mary as being the Mother of God.

Ambassador for Christ,

See JD Crossan and JL Reed's "In Search of Paul", pp 118-119 and pp 112-114. See http://www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15844_3.html for a summary of the book.

Are these the "rules of order in the church" of which Mr. Thomas speaks? Doesn't sound very egalitarian to me...

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law.

35 And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

Dear Concerned,

The quote you cited states: "But in I Timothy, a letter attributed to Paul by later Christians though not actually written by him", I would like to ask for reasons why your source makes this claim.

To be canonized as a Saint is the highest honor in the church.

Throughout history scores of women have been canonized as Saints!

Soon after her death in 1997, Mother Teresa's followers began pressing the Vatican to waive the rule that prevents the process of canonization from beginning until five years following the candidate's death. This rule has traditionally been used to allow for a more objective look at a person's life and achievements.

In 1999, the pope did waive the five-year rule, allowing the canonization process to begin.

Women have always been regarded as special, loved and highly praised in the church… I can't speak for all Christianity but I will speak for my church because I know better.

I wouldn't expect any less of a comment from an antheist!

III. "MALE AND FEMALE HE CREATED THEM"

Equality and difference willed by God

369 Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. "Being man" or "being woman" is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity "in the image of God". In their "being-man" and "being-woman", they reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness.

370 In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.241

When Christians take it one step farther and say Jesus Would Be Offended by Church Discrimination Against Others - not just Women, I will listen to drivel like this. The fact is the so called "Christian" Church is discrimatory against so many others not just women. As for Muslims, one only needs to read the hate and discrimination in the Koran against women as well as others to understand the true evil nature of Islam.

Mary was the most "blessed" woman for she was the "mother of God" no doubt. When your cat mothers a dog, (dislexik atheist say there is no dog) then the animal kingdom will be up to the high standards of the kingdom of God concerning equality of gender.

Mary mothered God but was not herself God. That's what's known as a NO BRAINER and a yardstick usable to measure faith, to say nothing of how those of great faith measure women's equality to that of men.

Victoria, 3:195 might say it all to you but:

O ye wives of the Prophet! Whosoever of you committeth manifest lewdness, the punishment for her will be doubled, and that is easy for Allah.--33:30
1. It's OK to have sex with your wives on the night of the fast. 2:187
2. Menstruation is a sickness. Don't have sex with menstruating women. 2:222
3. Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like. 2:223
4. Women have rights that are similar to men, but men are "a degree above them." 2:228
5. A woman is worth one-half a man. 2:282
6. Marry of the women two, or three, or four. 4:3
7. Males are to inherit twice that of females. 4:11
8. Lewd women are to be confined to their houses until death. 4:15
9. You may not forcibly inherit women, unless they flagrantly lewd. 4:19
10. Instructions for exchanging wives 4:20
11. "All married women (are forbidden unto you) save those (captives) whom your right hands possess."
You can't have sex with married women, unless they are slaves obtained in war (with whom you may rape or do whatever you like). 4:24
12. Men are in charge of women, because Allah made men to be better than women. Refuse to have sex with women from whom you fear rebellion, and scourge them. 4:34
13. Don't pray if you are drunk, dirty, or have touched a woman lately. 4:43
14. Women are feeble and are unable to devise a plan. 4:98
15. They invoke in his (Allah's) stead only females. 4:117
16. A man cannot treat his wives fairly. 4:129
17. "Unto the male is the equivalent share of two females." 4:176
18. When it's time to pray and you have just used the toilet or touched a woman, be sure to wash up. If you can't find any water, just rub some dirt on yourself. 5:6
19. Lot offers his daughters to a mob of angel rapers. 11:78
20. Lot offers his daughters to a mob of angel rapers. 15:71
21. When the doom of Allah comes, pregnant women will suffer miscarriages, nursing mothers with forget their babies. 22:1-2
22. You don't have to be modest around your wives or your slave girls "that your right hand possess." 23:6
23. If you accuse an honorable women of adultery, be sure to bring four witness. Otherwise you will receive 80 lashes. 24:4
24. A husband can accuse his wife of adultery with only one witness. 24:6
25. Believing women must lower their gaze and be modest, cover themselves with veils, and not reveal themselves except to their husbands, relatives, children, and slaves. 24:31
26. If Muhammad's wives are good, Allah will give them "an immense reward." 33:28-29
27. The wives of Muhammad will be punished double for lewdness. (And that is easy for Allah.) 33:30
28. The wives of Muhammad are not like other women. They must not leave their houses. 33:32-33
29. When Allah or Muhammad decide that a man and a woman should marry, they must marry. 33:36
30. Allah gave Zeyd to Muhammad in marriage. This was so that all Muslims would know that it's OK to marry your adopted son's ex-wife. 33:37
31. Allah says it is lawful for Muhammad to marry any women he wants. 33:50-51
32. If men must speak to Muhammad's wives they must speak from behind a curtain. And no one must ever marry one of his wives. 33:53
33. But it's OK for Muhammad's wives to talk with certain people. 33:55
34. Women must cover themselves when in public. 33:59
35. Those who "did wrong" will go to hell, and their wives will go to hell with them (no matter how they behaved). 37:22-23
36. But the single-minded slaves of Allah will enjoy a Garden filled with lovely-eyed virgins. 37:40-48
37. Female companions await those who enter the Gardens of Eden on the Day of Reckoning. 38:52
38. Allah will reward faithful Muslims after they die with "fair ones with wide, lovely eyes." 44:54
39. Allah will reward those in the Garden with beautiful wives with wide, lovely eyes. 52:20
40. Those who disbelieve in the afterlife give female names to angels. 53:27
41. Allahwill give those in the Garden women of modest gaze whom neither man nor jinn have touched before them. 55:56
42. Allah will reward believing men with "fair ones" (beautiful women) in heaven. 55:71-72
43. Those in the Garden will be attended by immortal youths with wide, lovely eyes. 56:17-23
44. Allah made virgins to be lovers and friends to those on his right hand. 56:36-37
45. Your wives and children are your enemies. They are to you only a temptation. 64:14-15
46. Instructions for divorcing your wives. 65:1-6
47. Allah's rules for divorcing wives that have not yet reached puberty. 65:4
48. Muhammad's wives need to be careful. If they criticize their husband, Allah will replace them with better ones. 66:5
49. The wives of Noah and Lot (who were both righteous) betrayed their husbands and are now in the Fire. 66:10
50. Doom is about to fall on all disbelievers. Only worshippers (Muslims) and those who preserve their chastity (except with their wives and slave girls) will be spared from "the fires of hell" that are "eagar to roast." 70:1-30
51. You don't have to be chaste around your wives or your slave girls. 70:29-30
52. Abu Lahab will die and be plunged in flaming Fire. His wife will have on her neck a halter of palm fiber. 111:1-5

Bible sexist no way - You all have forgotten Mary!

Mother of God" (Theotokos).

The Father blessed Mary more than any other created person "in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places" and chose her "in Christ before the foundation of the world, to be holy and blameless before him in love".137

509 Mary is truly "Mother of God" since she is the mother of the eternal Son of God made man, who is God himself.

489 Throughout the Old Covenant the mission of many holy women prepared for that of Mary. At the very beginning there was Eve; despite her disobedience, she receives the promise of a posterity that will be victorious over the evil one, as well as the promise that she will be the mother of all the living. 128 By virtue of this promise, Sarah conceives a son in spite of her old age. 129 Against all human expectation God chooses those who were considered powerless and weak to show forth his faithfulness to his promises: Hannah, the mother of Samuel; Deborah; Ruth; Judith and Esther; and many other women. 130 Mary "stands out among the poor and humble of the Lord, who confidently hope for and receive salvation from him. After a long period of waiting the times are fulfilled in her, the exalted Daughter of Sion, and the new plan of salvation is established."131

493 The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God "the All-Holy" (Panagia), and celebrate her as "free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature".138 By the grace of God Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.

As St. Irenaeus says, "Being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race."141 Hence not a few of the early Fathers gladly assert. . .: "The knot of Eve's disobedience was untied by Mary's obedience: what the virgin Eve bound through her disbelief, Mary loosened by her faith."142 Comparing her with Eve, they call Mary "the Mother of the living" and frequently claim: "Death through Eve, life through Mary."143

508 From among the descendants of Eve, God chose the Virgin Mary to be the mother of his Son. "Full of grace", Mary is "the most excellent fruit of redemption" (SC 103): from the first instant of her conception, she was totally preserved from the stain of original sin and she remained pure from all personal sin throughout her life.

Mary is the mother of the church! How can anyone say the bible is sexist when God gave Mary the ultimate role and title of our faith!

Go back to Sunday school.

Victoria,

Apparently the Taliban read the Koran differently than you do. Maybe you should pay them a visit.

Et al,

JD Crossan points out where all the problems began for women in Christianity in his recent book (along with JL Reed), In Search of Paul:http://www.beliefnet.com/story/158/story_15844_3.html

"The authentic and historical Paul, author of the seven New Testament letters he actually wrote (Romans, 1-2 Corinthians, Galations, Philippians, I Thessalonians, Philemon), held that within Christian communities it made no difference whether one entered as a Christian Jew or a Christian pagan, as a Christian man or a Christian woman, as a Christian freeborn or a Christian slave. All were absolutely equal with each other.

But in I Timothy, a letter attributed to Paul by later Christians though not actually written by him, women are told to be silent in church and pregnant at home (2:8-15). And a later follower of Paul inserted in I Corinthians that it is shameful for women to speak in church, but correct to ask their husbands for explanations at home (14:33-36)."

Conclusion: As with the NT, scribes have added to the Epistles of Paul a number of embellishments to fit their dislikes or to increase the acceptance of Jesus to the Gentiles and Jews. And female members have been taken a "back seat" for the last 2000 years!!! Time for change!!! B16 tear down these Walls!!!

The mistreatment of women in the Muslim religion just adds added credence to its significant stupidity as a way of life. One needs to go no farther than the actions of the "crazy Talibaners".

.

Equality and difference willed by God

369 Man and woman have been created, which is to say, willed by God: on the one hand, in perfect equality as human persons; on the other, in their respective beings as man and woman. "Being man" or "being woman" is a reality which is good and willed by God: man and woman possess an inalienable dignity which comes to them immediately from God their Creator.240 Man and woman are both with one and the same dignity "in the image of God". In their "being-man" and "being-woman", they reflect the Creator's wisdom and goodness.

370 In no way is God in man's image. He is neither man nor woman. God is pure spirit in which there is no place for the difference between the sexes. But the respective "perfections" of man and woman reflect something of the infinite perfection of God: those of a mother and those of a father and husband.241

373 In God's plan man and woman have the vocation of "subduing" the earth248 as stewards of God. This sovereignty is not to be an arbitrary and destructive domination. God calls man and woman, made in the image of the Creator "who loves everything that exists",249 to share in his providence toward other creatures; hence their responsibility for the world God has entrusted to them.

This is from the Qur'an:

"I shall not lose sight of the labor of any of you who labors in My way, be it man or woman; each of you is equal to the other (3:195)"

i think that about says it.
peace

Cal Thomas said,

"God created us in His image. He created us male and female. Nothing God creates is inferior, though both male and female are equally sinners and have need of the same Savior."

He created us in his image, huh? Surely even you, Cal Thomas of His Most Holy Order of the Poorly Reasoned Word, can see the inherent bias in that statement.

The Christian bible contradicts itself left and right on the subject of women's status, as it does on most every topic. Christians like Cal eagerly quote verses supporting whatever their personal viewpoint is while ignoring contradictory passages, such as Paul's admonitions that women should be silent in church.

Cal seems to believe that women should be equal but not too equal. So he quotes some verses supporting equality after carefully mentioning that "He also created an order and a set of responsibilities for both sexes.".

Clearly, Christianity has been no friend to women over the centuries. Look what Joan of Arc got for going to the trouble of saving France for the English. To whatever degree that modern Christians support equal rights for women, it is because those Christians have incorporated secular, humanistic morality while selectively ignoring contradictory Christian doctrine.

Christianity, particularly fundamentalist Christianity, remains one of the great impediments to gender equality in our society, but I believe that secular values will continue to penetrate Christian thought and weaken this impediment in the coming decades.

MMK, all. Face the facts. Hoaxes are created by con men so they can extract wealth from the unwary. The Bible has stood the test of time because it allows the con man to make whatever case fits the suckers emotional needs at the time.

If women are to be equal then there are passages that can be used. If women are to be "put in the proper place" there are passages that can be used. Good hoaxes allow the greatest number of suckers with the widest variety of emotional, "spiritual" needs to be satisfied they are doing God's will.

Got faith?
1. The Bible is God's word.
2. Learned men with Bibles, doctors of divinity know what God wants.
3. Any faith left over can be applied to God.

Pretend you are God. How do you see faith in you? Does Devil worship fit what you see? Nah, just an old fashioned confidence scam.

To MMK-

There is a "new age" idea going about that you have brought up in your comment that bears reflection. First, the "truth" is what is, what reality is, regardless of what you believe. If a car accident occurs, and it is witnessed by various people, they will agree "something" happened. However, what we "perceive" is our idea of how, or why it happened-hence courts and lawyers throughout time, sometimes even contrary to our actual physical senses. Perception is wrought with simple prejudice of view, whether physical or psychological. Nevertheless, there is still the fact that something is occurring, not based on our sensory or psychic
perception(s).

Small wonder Cal. Jesus was a woman.

Have you found "Gospel Truth" yet? http://www.hoax-buster.org down around the middle of the first page. "The lord is my shepherd, I shall not want." Now which lord is that anyhow?

I, like many others, were given select pieces of the Bible to read, at a young age. I was told what they meant.

As I began to read and comprehend on my own a very different Bible began to emerge. I encourage all those who claim to read the Bible to really read it (the entire book) as if you are seeing it for the first time, without anyone else's interpretations.

One cannot possibly believe the Bible treats men and women "equal" after reading one especially traumatic passage, (out of hundreds, by the way)
IT is Numbers 5, verses 12 thru 31 concerning "god's" response to "jealous" husbands. Not only is the passage very telling, the fact that there is no "remedy" given for women who are "jealous" indicates systemic law against women

There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.” (Galatians 3:28)

I think people look at the facts and decipher the meaning based on what they would like to believe. It is quite evident that reality is perception just as perception is reality. Let us look into our own being for the truth and not make judgment with relation to the bible. It is very simple we are not qualified to fully understand the word of god and our interpretations may very well be the means of our demise. Mere mortal men cannot explain the meaning of the scriptures. The meaning of the scriptures comes from life experience combined with the word of god. The best example I can give would be the commandment that commands we respect and honor our parents. This equates to much more than a commandment from god. What this means is that our parents our elders are our mentors that educate us based on their own life experience we learn from mistakes and we hope to better ourselves based upon what we have learned. We attempt to pass this information to our offspring just as God is mentor to mankind. I don’t have a position regarding this matter since I am not qualified to make a determination. I can say this follow the golden rule and treat others as you would be treated. This is true peace.

Mr. Thomas writes some nice things, but neglects to mention that throughout history women fare much worse in the fundamentalist religious societies that Mr. Thomas would prefer to live in. The trend is as clear today as it ever was.

Mr. Thomas worked hard against the Equal Rights Amendment when he was Vice President for Falwell's Moral Majority back in the 1980s. (This is the same guy who a few weeks ago wrote that requiring Muslims among us sign loyalty oaths is a good idea).

Mr. Thomas:

I appreciate your general idea here, but the piece is short on substance. There are in fact very few thinking people today who would explicitly say that women are second-class citizens or are inferior. However, many who do discriminate use the same language that you do: that men and women have "different gifts" and as such, women should not be pastors or elders in their churches or have careers outside the home because their "gifts" are different from men's "gifts."

In your view, in what ways do Christian men and/or Christian churches wrongly use the Bible to discriminate against women? Are you referring to when men use the Bible to justify domestic violence against their wives? If so, then most Christians of any theological stripe would agree with you. Are you referring to conservative churches' prohibition against women becoming pastors or elders? If so, then many mainline and liberal Christians would agree, but many conservative/evangelical Christians would disagree.

If your main point in all this is to challenge the age-old practice of barring women from the ministry or priesthood, then it would be nice if you as an evangelical would come out and say it explicitly. If your purpose is just to offer up platitudes that most people agree with anyway, then what is the point?

Matt:
I agree with Cal Thomas. The general message of the entire Bible is equality for all. You might be picking verses and taking them out of context. When you read the entire Bible, and know what it really says from start to finish, it is hard to believe the meanings you ascribe to those few verses.

I could try to explain all of those verses you quoted if you would like me to.

Well finally I can agree with Cal about something. It gives me hope.

Matt said “Christian sexists don't "disregard" the Bible, as Cal misleadingly claims. The sexism comes directly from the Bible.”

-If you take the view of those who believe the Bible is inerrant in all its details, you have a valid point. The Bible "could" be used to buttress either side of this debate.

-If you take my own view, that the Bible holds transcendent truths that are valid even after ferreting out the cultural bias that is reflected by its authors, I think Cal’s position fairly represents where Jesus would come down on this issue.

-It seems to me that, discrimination against women in all cultures is really a matter of power. Such discrimination is found in not only religious traditions, but law, culture, politics and economics as well. Misogynistic tendencies are first and foremost about power and control, no matter what their form of expression.

And what exactly would "God’s rules of order in the church" be, Mr. Thomas?

Just curious...

Cal ignores the verses in the Bible that clearly treat women like second-class citizens.

The Bible blamed Eve for the downfall of "man" (Gen 3:16). It is "disgraceful" for women to speak or inquire in church (1 Cor 14:33-35 ). Women should submit to their husbands (Col 3:18). Etc. Etc.

Did Cal miss those misogynistic verses? Or is he just embarrassed by them?

Christian sexists don't "disregard" the Bible, as Cal misleadingly claims. The sexism comes directly from the Bible.

For details, see http://ffrf.org/nontracts/women.php.