Isaiah Already Answered This Question

You are a pretty critical bunch:
- Cal Thomas flayed for stuff he should have said.
- Criticism of people who use "America" as short hand for the United States of America.
- Something about how Mose's burning bush was really the devil.
- Off-topic stuff about evolution.

There was only one guy who talked in detail about the U.S. Constitution.

I would have thought that you citizens of the United States of America would have more to say about your Constitution in response to Mr. Thomas.

Well, at least you have that one guy to explain it for you.

NF:

Your statement about Israel truning from God is an expression of great ignorance of the history of Judah.

The first ever master race on earth were the Egyptians. The firs people to receive a visit from a / any master race were Jews. That happened about 5,000 years ago.

The Egyptians took all they had, occupied their country and turned them into slaves. That lasted, with a few kiccups until the Persian invasion about 2,600 years ago. Thus the Egyptians enslaved them for about 2,400 years.

Then came the Greeks of Alexander the great. That's about 2,300 years ago. Not to worry.

The Romans conquered the Greeks and took over just in time for Jesus. They settled the Jewish problem by declaring being a Jew an offence punishable by death. The Romans had many ways to make that, death happen.

The surviving Jews scattered to the 4 winds with a substantial number ending up in Europe where they are now the last goup of people to receive the attention of a master race, Arians led by a part Jew named Adolph Hitler.

Now with all that can you please tell me that God had anything to do with their troubles? And of course, just how much help has God given his chosen people? In other words, who turned away from whom?

Maybe you can understand what has happened but only if you know a little history. Try interpretation 1501 of the Bible. It will clear the whole mess up for you. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul

After you've given that some thought maybe you can answer the question. Looks to me like the Jews have been trying to get away from the Devil for about 5,000 years now. God is everywhere but the Devil goes everywhere and has a great following.

I wonder what the world would be like if every fulminating zealot--whether Christian, Jew, Muslim, or Dogmatic Atheist--assimilated the life experience and humility of Chaim of Zans [translated by Martin Buber]:

"In my youth, when I was fired with the love of God, I thought I would convert the whole world to God. But soon, I discovered that it would be quite enough to convert the people who lived in my town, and I tried for a long time--but did not succeed. Then I realized that my program was still much too ambitious, and I concentrated on the persons in my household. But I could not convert them either. Finally, it dawned on me: I must work upon myself, so that I may give true service to God. But I did not accomplish even this." [in: The Way of the Jewish Mystics, ed. by Perle Besserman].

Pam: You are right...anytime 2 or more people live in proximity someone needs to be in charge and be a leader. Norms, limits and boundaries are soon defined, then handed down by word of mouth and story telling. Eventually someone creates cave painting, then written communications on Papyrus, then printing presses, then computers. All religions have the same set of basic concepts as the 10 Generalities credited to Moses. Its just natural progression as each generation built upon the work of the prior. Animals have heirarchies of leadership and patterns of behavior, so do humans. Moses and religion are not the source, the "commandments" are naturally occuring responses to living in group settings. With the rule of law, police, courts and jails we have far surpassed the need for these quaint sets of behavioral rules. But centuries of practice have made people assume these deities must be real, so great temples, cathedrals, mosques and etc are raised to the whatever is the prevailing local deity, armies march to protect turf and vanquish differing belief systems, genocides and holocaust follow....the next one will be a doozy.

Truth (misnomer) writes:
"Why aren't we a Christian nation? Moses was given the 10 Commandments from God to govern nations. That is the foundation of all of our laws."

I am so tired of hearing this BS. Where are our laws saying that we must honor our fathers and mothers? How about laws prohibiting the making of images? Laws saying we musn't misuse the name of God? Laws against coveting our neighbor's wife, or his house? (OK for me to covet my neighbor's *husband*, I guess.) Laws saying we have to remember the Sabbath and keep it holy? Laws against having any other god than God?

Yes, we do have laws against killing and stealing and bearing false witness, but *any* society, however secular, would come up with these (among many others) just to have a functioning society, rather than one that operated in chaos. Stone tablets have nothing to do with it.

Tonius wrote:
"God is not neutral on freedom. America is the most free country and because of it has been blessed with the most of everything."

No, he's not - he specifically mentions in the ten commandments that you should let your "male and female slaves" rest on the Sabbath.

The USA currently has "the most of everything" because it's a large, temperate-zone country whose many resources were essentially unexploited until Northern Europeans settled here some 300 years ago. Give us another hundred years or so of population growth and resource rape and we'll be just like everywhere else.

CARLOS tells us:
It is interesting that two of those who have responded to this "extremist" journalist have posted only extremely negative comments. Their only opinion on the question or Cal's response is to call names.

Ann O. replies: I agree, Carlos. Why are there so-many atheists here in the first place? The chief interest of many of them seems to be other people's beliefs, not the reasons for their own non-belief. The agnostics don't behave like that.

Hmmm.

Ann O.

This whole conversation has been rather ridiculous. Yes, there were a few mistakes. But it boils down to this. There are three parties at work in this topic: the political, the “church,” and the boiled down truth of what all those, as you referred to them, “bible-thumpers,” claim to believe in.
To begin with, those with political agendas know that they can get a leg up by joining up with Christianity and with those good American church-goers. This political agenda is not part of the bible. It should be kept out of the “church”. Unfortunately, the “church” that exists in America is just as happy to be considered a critical part of politics. They are the ones who claim America is a Christian nation.
But the third party I referred to is seldom mentioned in these debates. People have been accosted by the “church.” That is all they think that Christianity is. Yes, many of the “Christians” out there are blind. I was not raised Christian and I was appalled as a child by people who would say, “There’s no explanation, it just IS.” Never answering the question why because they never asked it themselves. You are right, the “church” teaches people to be blind. But I have to tell you that they are not telling people the truth. Since I became born again, I have always asked why and I have never not gotten an answer. Not from the “church” because they seldom know what they are talking about, but from God.
So, what I wanted to say was, yes, many of you are right about what you have noticed with the "church" and the government. But please don't confuse that with the reality of what is there.

Paganus-

You obviously have not read through Paul's letters to see what Paul is saying . He is talking about the New Convenant that Jesus spoke of during the last supper, and that faith- trust in God is what God is looking for, with works to back it up.

You short post shows you don't want to confront this truth, or just don't want to create any controversy in your own head about it.

You don't know the scriptures if you don't know about the faith/works concept and the New convenant.

It was not surprising for me to note that out of the many postings I read regarding Cal Thomas's writing, I saw so few that stuck to the subject, and fewer still lacked logic. Churchill surely was right

Thank you Mr. Cal Thomas!
Now that we discover USA and UK are not Christian countries, you have done a great service to Peace. The only thing left now is to spread the message loud and clear to Islamic nations hoping that the news discovery would have them refrain from targeting all other Christians in their countries because of Bush and Blair’s war. These extreme right wing politicians have been abusing religion for their ideological war.

Curtiss Calleo,

You wrote:

"Thank god someone has the sense to say it out loud"

I thought you were an atheist. Apparently even those who claim not to believe, occasionally call upon 'god'.

Therein abides TRUTH.

I do think one aspect of religion in America (Christian or otherwise) that should be considered is the fact that religion is considered by many to be the only institution that will preserve virtue over the generations (and that virtue is indispensable to our republic). So probably more important than "which faith or denomination is most characteristic of our nation", is rather, if we agree virtue is necessary, "what are the state and trends of our collective virtue"--is it measurable? And how influential are our churches, temples, and synagogues in teaching virute? What are the consequences of the loss of virtue? And, more fundamentally,what are the salient, necessary virtues? Also, if we don't believe religion is necessaray, what will preserve virtue?

Any time you see someone (on here or anywhere) throwing out figures, run. Run just as fast as your little legs can take you because the person throwing out the figures is almost invariably making things up. Here is an example from a previous post in this thread by BRAMBLETON:

"For example, including sales tax, property tax and income tax, a poor person pays almost 50% of their INCOME in taxes, while a really rich person often pays less than 1%."

Can't beleive I even bothered to read what Cal Tomas (whatever) wrote. What a waste of three minutes. who is he, anyway?

It baffles my mind that, in a country like this where we have religious freedom, we still fight over the existence of God and criticize others for believing. I have found through my intellectual pursuits on the matter that those who often don't believe cannot grapple the vastness of the claim. For God's sake, science seems to point to a higher being. The latest in physics and science concerning the "Big Bang" Theory point to the theory that something had to start it (unless you believe in negative pressure which has never been proven or experimentally verified). The skeptics don't believe because intellect says otherwise. Intellect also said that the world was flat. And that we were the center of the universe. And that women had penises (look it up; medieval philosophy. It's true).

In any event, I daren't think that this country is a Christian nation. Honestly, this article is stupid anyway. It really doesn't say anything. What we are is a national founded on Christian principles. Death penalty aside (might as well throw in abortion and assisted suicide) we do value those things things traditionally valued as Christian ideals.

Impressive. I think that, for all the hue and cry over radical right-wing Christians and their agenda, we as a nation are in pretty good shape compared to others.

At the height of the British empire, they actually saw themselves as the New Jerusalem--a place hole enough for Jesus Christ himself to walk. A nationalistic hymn of that time included the following lyric:

"I will not cease from Mental Fight,
Nor shall my Sword sleep in my hand,
Till we have built Jerusalem
In England’s green and pleasant Land. "

History has proved that Christianity is an ideal means to the reformation of one's personal character, but it is a disasterous tool for improvement on a vast scale such as nation-building and imperialism.

Todd, your suggestion that Christians who embrace the concept of Christ as Savior "pursue their personal salvation at the expense of other concerns" simply doesn't square with reality.

Consider the recent findings of charity expert Arthur C. Brooks. His study on charity giving found that the average religious conservative is very charitable. Among the "blue" states, where most Christians of your persuasion live, only one state (Maryland) breaks into the 25 most generous states. The Christians you label as selfish and inconsiderate of the poor are putting their faith into action and are the ones who are all over the globe ministering to the poor and disadvantaged.

More often than not, when a "christian" (the lower case is appropriate, because you do not accept the divinity of Christ) of your persuasion talks about a "greedy" or "selfish" Christian, you are referring to a Christian who simply does not accept the notion that government is in the best position to help the poor and disadvantaged.

What Cal says is true because so many belive that they are special. Even the guy that uses Sam's toilet paper, and made a twisted comment.

Mike, Pam, Ron, Richard Ryckoff: Bravo! Well said.

I stopped believing years ago, every religion claim that it has the ONLY correct truth....as told in their collection of myth and superstition called a holy book. Gimme the rule of law and good science.

I love my country (USA) but recognize our history is full of greedy disgrace, from slavery 200+ plus years ago to ripping off Irish, Jews, Poles, Italians, Germans, Swedes and other nationalities that came here in the latter 1800's and early 1900's....to how our wonderful business community that shamelessly takes merciless advantage of illegal aliens today. We had it drummed into us about how good we are, yaddaX3, but there's so much dirt below this nice facade...our democratic disneyland is a sewer of greed. Is it any wonder so many nations consider us, and especially our Congress, a dirty joke? I don't blame the French and Germans for not joining us in Iraq...they're too smart to get sucked into the nonsense of the cross-eyed cretin we have for a president...who can't even articulate a sentence if standing up.

Religion is a myth, concocted 25,000 years ago to explain the unexplainable to fearful cave people, before good science taught us the world is round, the sun DOES not revolve around us. There is no god of wind, rain, fire, water, etc....it's all a cave-man era protocol designed to control people in an age when boundaries, norms and limits had to be set in small village settings and there was no lawman or 911 to call....only myth and an invisible curse of eternal damnation if you did not comply, all administered by a village elder from his glory cave. Times have changed. Time to convert our churches to schools (for ethics, duh) which we dearly need, convert them to daycare centers, political clubs, league of women voters debate halls, sport halls, community centers, etc.

The worst thing that I see in today's America is the Alliance Defense Fund, a group of lawyers in Arizona, bankrolled by Dobson, Robertson and Falwell - and with the STATED purpose of aligning national policy (LAW) with "christian" doctrine. This is every bit as dangerous to our nation as the Taliban was to Afghanistan...establishment of policy as defined by a set of murderous, hateful old cranks who simply want to control everyone.

I never liked the ACLU, but with the American Taliban of Dobson, Robertson and Falwell roaming the land, I've sent the ACLU a check THIS year -and hope you do to. The biggest danger to America is from within, the American Taliban will ruin us if we fail to stop their evil scheme to control us with their definition of what is "right". I have no doubt that Dobson would burn gays at the stake if he could do it...such is his lust for power...and too many idiots in Congress are glad to take his money and do their evil bidding....

Science. Law. Equality. Brotherhood.

Horray! Finally! The definitive statement for separating church and state: We are not a Christian nation because Christianity is beyond nations. I, as an atheist, am fine with that. Thank god someone has the sense to say it out loud: religion belongs OUT of the government, out of the laws, back where it belongs, in people's consciences and consiousness. I can respect religion as long as it respects my beliefs.

CC

Aside from what the scriptures say, in the time of global economy and worldwide communication between people of all nations through internet, segregating ourselves by religion, race or nationality is not a practical idea. After all, if there is a creator (God) for this universe, we all are his children. We should work toward the unity of the mankind.

mr. thomas brought up salient points and a wise admonition.

Cal Thomas is honest, whatever criticisms may otherwise be made against him, and I think he's on target about this. If all on both ends of the political spectrum would follow the example of his honesty, we'd all benefit.

This is not a Christian nation. If Americans were practicing Christianity there would not be one starving child in the world. We have the capability to feed the world. If this were a Christian nation, people living bloated lifestyles in obscenely large homes would open their doors to the homeless. If this were a Christian nation, we would be working toward peace in the world and doing all that we could to see that all beings everywhere were cared for and safe. This is not a Christian nation. It's just a country full of people who think they are Christians. Christ would be appalled.

Right conclusion but for the wrong reasons. America is great (or at least has the potential to be when its constitution is respected and is not arrogant) because we had some extremely intelligent people in charge when it was most important -- at the time its mission and laws were written down on paper and then debated and ratified. These documents were based on the founders' intimate knowledge of history, and especially the previous constitutions in Britain and the colonies. We should all be eternally grateful.
One should always remember Jefferson and Franklin were first and foremost men of science, and Adams a man of law. The Bible and Christianity were necessary decorations in the late 18th century, and their influence in our founding documents is negligible. We should all be eternally grateful.

Why aren't we a Christian nation? Moses was given the 10 Commandments from God to govern nations. That is the foundation of all of our laws.

Did God send new instructions to Cal Thomas?

The United States is a all religions country. Every one who come to live here had de oportunity to advance as they choose. To labeled it a Christian Nation is to ignore and dismiss all de others religions whose God is not Christ. Now in this United States like many other Countres there is the petulant believe that God is with us and not with ours contrary. If we are to be just with Crhist we have to remember the live He lived by loving everybody no matter if the followe Him or not.

The United States is a all religions country. Every one who come to live here had de oportunity to advance as they choose. To labeled it a Christian Nation is to ignore and dismiss all de others religions whose God is not Christ. Now in this United States like many other Countres there is the petulant believe that God is with us and not with ours contrary. If we are to be just with Crhist we have to remember the live He lived by loving everybody no matter if the followe Him or not.

Hi Cal! Granted that some of our nation's founders were Christian but they are all dead now! Over the centuries "religious" humans have spilled more blood than I care to remember. Cal, there is no old man with a white beard in a white dress sitting on a cloud. Is it to be peace or Onward Christian Soldiers? Happy holiday (holy day). rhdavignon

America is AMERICA, is liberty, is tolerance, is democracy, is respect, is everything.

God is not neutral on freedom. America is the most free country and because of it has been blessed with the most of everything.

Hmmm. Seems like most of the folks posting here are kinda like my wonderful wife. Just love to argue about something, anything. Then, after the argument degrades into a heated altercation, she goes off all pissed off and pouts.
Hmmm. Americans. Pouters. I'd like to see the pontificator T: after he gets done spouting his 4 dollar words trying to impress the hell out everyone that he is indeed the knowledgable one among the ranters. I imagine him looking very much like the picture of good old Cal, kinda uppity. Kinda snooty like.
Wanna argue a bit, T?

Bang on Josh. Thanks!

Why the hell do we need to argue over this? Why does everybody care so much whether we're a christian nation or not. If every 'devout' christian would keep their mouth shut and leave the judgement to god we'd be in a lot better condition. It seems funny to me that there is always alot of debate over who's right and wrong when it comes to Salvation based religions, who regularly use missions and such to try to 'convert' subjects (whiched worked great in the crusades, inquisition, and israeli policy, but never any argument when it comes to enlightenment based religions such as buddhism.

If living a decent life, being good to my neighbors, honest with my friends and compassionate with my family doesn't save my soul, I don't want it to be saved. I'm more concerned with stopping global warming and obtaining world peace, because despite what many of my dead relatives have told themselves, the rapture's not coming anytime soon. We've got issues to face in this world RIGHT NOW that will effect our children and grandchildren long after we're gone. I'm not going to use the rapture as an excuse to keep my head in the sand.

This debate seems to me, as an outsider, rather pointless because "Christian" Americans do not come across as having many real "Christian" values, and the execution of the religion more akin to godf***ing, i.e. dirtying something that should be sacred.
The impression is that Americans look upon themselves as more than others because they, like the pharisees, display a very visible devotion that is not followed up with altruistic deeds.
GWB is a prime sample of an American G-F!
This is of course a very superficial view of American society, but when we see the cheats and the liars and the spin-doctors that run the US, it is the reality we use to form our opinion.

"...there is no man without his faults, none without his burden. None is sufficient in himself; none is wise in himself; therefore we must support one another, comfort, help, teach, and advise one another."
-- Thomas à Kempis

An excellent and lovely quote, Mr. Pies. Thank you for sharing it.

Pam: well said re. evolution.

Paganus: well said re. scientific process.

JSLU: "god made them male and female and nothing in between." You may want to do some research prior to just spouting off what you think to be truth as though it were true in reality. Something isn't true just because you think or believe it is. Humans are made by their parents when egg and sperm fuse. Twenty-three chromosomes typically come from each parent. Usually from the male comes one autosome, either X or Y. Sometimes, however, meiosis allows a sperm to contain both an X and a Y autosome. The result is what you claim doesn't exist: a true hermaphrodite: a person who is both male and female; all the hardware is there. Little different than a pine tree or an earthworm. BTW: sexes are not limited to male and female. Paramecium have eight sexes. Any one sex may conjugate with any of the other seven.

People of religion come up with their version of truth through hallucination. They fight and kill each other to decide who is right. The survivor is the one who is right. This is how the "HOLY" bible came to have the exact set of books in its cannon. If you don't believe me, take a course in church history; go look at the PRIMARY SOURCES and see for yourself.

Scientists don't make up contorted ideas of reality then kill each other to see who's right. They carefully craft hypotheses and go through a rigorous process of observing and testing. They try just as hard to disprove something as to prove it. They don't blow off inconsistancies the way religious people do (Look at Genesis Ch. 1 and Ch. 2. One says god made man then later the animals to keep him company. The other says that animals were made first, then man. These "inerrantist" fools just blow it off). Scientists also continually modify their models as new information comes to light. Religious zealots are so cock sure that they have everything all figured out that their egos never allow them to adapt.

There are all sorts of bizarre beliefs in the realm of Ontology (that which is true). Ontology begs the epistomological question, "How do you know that what you say is true really is true?" There are all sorts of epistomologies that people espouse: "God told me so; I had a 'personal experience' with him." "The authority of truth is vested in the pope." "The authority of truth is vested in a religious text." Well the problem is that there are others who say, "But I had an experience with a different god than your god and my god told me your god is false," or "My holy leader told me that your holy leader is false," or "My holy book says that your holy book is false." What a bunch of childish nonsense all of this is. With systems of "logic" we get a little better at seeking truth. There are several types and systems of logic (syllogistic, dialectic, etc.) and reasoning (induction, deduction, etc). The hypothetico-deductive model of scientific investigation is the only epistomology that attempts to first use rational reason to construct a hypothesis of what one thinks to be true and then rigorously tests it to find whether it actually is true. Any ontology based upon any other epistomology is simply an act of "faith" i.e. believing something to be true simply because it is what the one wishes to believe as true; there is no testing, no methodical observation, no verification-just "believing" because it is what one wishes and chooses to do.

While Cal Thomas is right on this particular point, I find it symptomatic of the Washington Post's total lack of judgment that it would give a columnist with as little regard for the truth as Mr. Thomas a favored place in a discussion about faith.

Cal -
It would have been nice if you'd had the balls to came out and say this, oh say anytime in the last six years. It's amusing to see all the right-wing columnists tinkering with the message after the last election.

Doug,

So Doug, are we the new Israel? That what you seem to be implying. Which prophet declared that?

Has Cal Thomas ever read the Bible? God clearly had a special relationship with the ancient kingdom of Israel according to scripture. It was special in that He selected their leaders, helped them to win wars, assigned to them territory, gave them laws, etc.

Colorado,

What is false about what Mike says? And why does pointing out the faults of our nation equate, for you, to hatred of our nation? Do YOU like every thing about America? Do you like our abortion laws? Do you like Jefferson's wall between church and state?

I'll bet you anything that if you are a thinking person then you can come up with some things about America that you would like to change.

So why suffer others who point out our faults?

(yes, I was born in the US and lived here all my life, including my years in the US military)?

Cal Thomas (and virtually ALL Christians) are unable to even acknowledge the facts re. the Founders' philosophical views.
Almost all of the founders were either deists, agnostics or atheists. And many were explicitly anti-Christian (don't believe this -- check out some quotes from Jefferson, Franklin, Paine and others vis a vis Christianity). They thought Christianity was quackery, absurd and very deleterious.
The terrible dominance of our culture by the Judeo/Christian creed prevents most people from even having access to an accurate history of the founding of their own country.
Thomas, as others here have observed, is not a good source, despite an occasional tenuous connection with reality.

Mike writes:

"This year we murdered more innocent people around the world than any other nation, we regularly murder our own citizens if they go astray and break the law, we deny our poor citizens access to health care, food and shelter, we are destroying the earth with our gluttony at a far greater rate than any other nation, we value money over good deeds, we make the poor pay a greater percentage of their income in total taxes than the rich, etc..."

But NOTHING Mike said is true. What is it with people like Mike whose heart is so full of hatred for their own country (I assume, maybe incorrectly, that Mike is a U.S. citizen) that they must lie in an effort to demean it? What a bunch of morons here who either write lies or write that Cal Thomas is a nut job and the bible is toilet paper. Wow. Happy Holidays folks!

Those of you who are attacking Cal Thomas or turning it into a chance for a petty argument are behaving absurdly.

Here, we have a Christian Conservatism advocating that america be humble and suggesting that the Christianist movement is wrong.

Brambleton:

"The ONLY way to Heaven is through a relationship with Christ. "Nobody comes to the Father but through Me".

What does this have to do with the question of church and state? Personally, I don't want to go to heaven, don't give a rat's tongue about going to heaven. I don't need anything more from God, The Creator. What God has given me already is enough.

I will live a moral life and treat God's gift of Creation with the greatest respect. One need only look at Falwell, Bakker and other Christian thugs and outlaws to see that Christianity is a poor moral guide.

No theocracy for me.

Dear Jesus, please protect us from your followers. Amen.

PAM,

Keep up the fight, though, frustrating as it may be!

;)

Paganus wrote:
"You realize, of course, that the answer to the problem of fossils, vestigious organs, limbs, etc., for many on the religious right, is "The Devil is tempting us.

They don't want to think - they want to believe in a way that obviates the need for systematic rational thought."

Right, sorry, lost my head for a moment there. Why would I ever think that rationality would make an impression?
:)

Yes, the Christian Right is neither.

As someone not raised in the Christian faith, I always wonder what is meant by the term, "Christian" (as in "We are a Christian nation" or "I am a Christian."). One of the best answers I have found is in the writing of the 15th c. Augustinian monk, Thomas a Kempis. In his "Counsels on the Spiritual Life," Thomas writes, "...there is no man without his faults, none without his burden. None is sufficient in himself; none is wise in himself; therefore we must support one another, comfort, help, teach,and advise one another."

As the holidays draw near, perhaps we can take Thomas's message to heart, no matter how the term "Christian" has been used or misused throughout history.

The writer is the author of, "Ethics of the Sages", an interfaith examination of a book of the Talmud.

Ron,

While I applaud your appeal to civility (from which I have shamefully deviated at points in this discourse) I must say that while I find your optimism charming, it does not serve you or your fellow citizens well. If the Christian rightists had a choice, you would be up against the wall with me. Their leadership is not concerned with civility, only dominance, and if they are not forcefully opposed in every possible way, they will bring a SECOND darkness upon the West. The struggle against religious fundamentalism begins at home....

One more point. If you are a Christian and you are trying to rationalize your faith then you are not a good Christian. Faith is as ends unto itself. You should believe in God because faith. Those who want to attack science because it does a better job of explaining the world are mistaken in what the role of religion is, or is supposed to be. Science and Religion are not talking about the same things. It is like having a conversation about two subjects in two different languages. The rusults of such a conversation are probably going to be in disagreement.

For those who are trying to defend religion by calling people gay or using other such simplistic language, you should be aware that even though we do not know who you are, your God does.

BTW if Christianity is about loving your neighbor and forgiveness those who espose hatred, ie REPENT and JLSU should do a bit more praying and little less fingerpointing. Also, JLSU please retake English 101 as your grammer is horrible.

This entire conversation is moot. Those who believe in a fundamentalist version of Christianity will belive anything and no amount of debate will convince them that they are wrong. So to have an arguement in which one side is not willing to think about alternative answers is a practice in futility

WHATS HIS POINT?

To Anon (cowardly right wing nut) - James Dobson evil? That's a piece of cake. He supports the single most evil, ruthless, wicked, and murderous Administration in U.S. history. Anyone supporting our idiot "president" George Bush or our President in Charge of Vice, "slick Dick" Cheney, is by derfinition a swine.

Weigh In,

On the contrary, you are the one taking things out of context. In chapter 3, the criterion for salvation that is opposed to faith is adherence ot the law, NOT good deeds per se, which he has clearly separated from adherence to the law in Ch 2. And you still have the other passages to deal with....

Cheers,

"Thou shalt not have no other Gods before me." Okay, this is just stupid. This guy just shows his lack of biblical knowledge by getting hold of one scripture and running with it. Old Testament 101: God considered Israel a Jewish nation, although not all Israelites were Jews. The unbelievers were sanctified through the believing Jews. Nations were spared by a handful of faithful believers. If Cal spent a little more time reading and less time philosphizing, he'd know this.

Oops - the word is "spectacularly" - forgive the spelling error.

Wasn't the purpose of this "On Faith" series to elicit "fruitful, intriguing, and above all constructive conversation about the things that matter most..."? If so, judging from some of the posts I've read, it's failing spectalarly in achieving that lofty level of discourse. Isn't there a moderator somewhere in this mean-spirited mess?

Pam,

You realize, of course, that the answer to the problem of fossils, vestigious organs, limbs, etc., for many on the religious right, is "The Devil is tempting us."

They don't want to think - they want to believe in a way that obviates the need for systematic rational thought.

Paganus-

you obviously like to quote one Scripture out of context.

Paul goes on to say in Chapter 3 of Romans:

"21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[i] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished— 26he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus."

The point is, that if you have faith, works will be reflected - you actions will change. Faith without works is dead. Faith is required, and you obviously have either chosen to ignore this, or are taking one scripture out of context to support your assertions.

Excellent post, Ron. Thanks for steering the conversation away from the sophomoric name-calling.

To my limited understanding, America in 2006 might be better understood not as a secular nation divided into red states and blue, but as a secular nation divided by two Christianities. While acknowledging and celebrating the presence of millions of Americans practicing religions other than Christianity, or practicing no religion at all, the simple fact remains that most Americans define themselves as Christian. How terribly unfortunate it is for non-Christian Americans, and for the world, that the conflict between the two American Christianities will direct the events of the 21st century.

Americans who consider themselves Christian may be broadly and undoubtedly overly generalized as thinking about Jesus in one of two distinct ways. For many, Jesus was a divine spirit who died for their personal sins. To accept him as your savior is to be saved, and the pursuit of one’s personal salvation is paramount to all other concerns. One’s personal and exclusive relationship with Jesus matters far more than his admonitions to care for the poor, the weak, and the oppressed.

For a smaller number of Americans, Jesus is believed as a peasant revolutionary who lived by example, and died for grace and compassion. To model your behavior after his is to bring heaven closer to earth. To turn away from your fellow human beings is to turn away from his teachings, and from God. This is the Jesus I believe in.

The Jesus I believe in was born of the most humble beginnings and raised in poverty. Throughout his life, Jesus was concerned with the poor, the powerless, and the oppressed. He was the friend of sinners, of the undesirables, and of the outcasts. Ridiculed, scorned, betrayed, condemned and crucified, his life was defined by suffering.

The Jesus I believe in honored the victims, the sufferers, and the soul. In America today, we honor the victorious, the successful, and the body. Jesus glorified the dignity of all, whether he agreed with them or not. In America today, we largely shame the dignity of those we disagree with.

Jesus resisted all temptation toward spectacle. No dazzling, pyrotechnic displays of omnipotence from him! In fact, Jesus refused the temptation of coercive power, knowing respect and faith are garnered through patience and compassion, rather than compelled through fear. Using power and the promise of security to force obedience was the way of Herod, the Rome-installed “King of the Jews”.

Jesus instead preached the way of God, the way of nonviolence. He was quite explicit in his pacifism: “Love your enemy”, and “resist not evil”, he said. Jesus refused the temptation to destroy evil by force, preferring to destroy it by faith, and love.

To this Jesus, a nation that rains down destruction upon another people, and then waxes triumphant, cannot possibly be becoming in God’s eyes. A leader who claims war as his providential mission is a leader whose Christianity, as well as that of his followers, needs to be born yet-again. Blessed are the conquerors! Blessed are the strong! No, Jesus said, “Blessed are the meek”, and “Blessed are the peacemakers”.

The Jesus I believe in saw people not as citizens of nations, but of Mankind. Nations he considered inventions of men; no one truly favored over another by God. I wonder if Jesus would consider it vainglorious to say “God Bless America”, as if America were divinely entitled – singled out for and deserving of special blessings, especially during wartime. Somehow I cannot imagine God up their in the cosmic bleachers as war plays out down here on earth. Look! There’s God! He’s cheering for us! He’s waving our flag!

The Jesus I believe in is impartial, even to a fault. If he shows favor, it is only towards the weakest and most humble members of humanity. This country once welcomed such people, as evidenced by Emma Lazarus’ eloquent invitation to the tired, the poor, the huddled masses, and the homeless inscribed at the base of our Statue of Liberty. Now these are the people our nation has forsaken.

To Jonathan Switzer:
This discussion wasn't at all about evolution, but if you want to go there...
Clearly you know less than nothing about the subject, and I'm willing to bet big bucks that you've never read a book by Darwin. He didn't invent the idea of evolution - that was known and accepted long before he wrote Origin of the Species. It's written in the fossil record and is irrefutable. What wasn't known, was how it came about. As with everything else, ignorance was filled in with God. Darwin merely explained the mechanism by which it took place - natural selection - elegantly simple. One can only wonder why it took so long to see it. Since Darwin, the discovery of the genetic code (DNA) has only served to reinforce this knowledge.

As for experiments, evolution into another species happens in a time frame that precludes an experiment by any individual, but the small changes that accumulate into speciation are readily apparent in a human lifetime - ask those who work with fruit flies, to name just one.

Dogs are genetically wolves - yet look at differences between a wolf and a Great Dane and a Chihuahua. There are more differences between them than there are between many species - say Margays and house cats. This has happened by humans selecting from litters for the characteristics that they want, and human selection greatly accelerates the process. Nature doesn't work that fast, but the process is the same - any animal that happens to have a characteristic that gives it a reproductive advantage - *however slight* - leaves more offspring, and those offspring are more likely to have the same competitive edge. So it proceeds. Given sufficient time, enough differences accumulate to effect speciation. It's been going on for 3-4 *billion* years. Do you have any comprehension of how long that is?

Why do whales have bones in their flippers that are exactly analogous to the bones in the forelegs of a dog - or a horse - or a bat's wings - or a human arm? God couldn't come up with any other bone plan? Or might it be that at some point all these mammals had a common ancestor that had that plan (and that fed it's young with milk, and that flexed its spine top to bottom rather than side to side like a fish does)?

THINK!

To those who think this commentary by Cal Thomas is out of character, I recommend the book, "Blinded by Right," which he co-wrote with Ed Dobson (no relation to James Dobson of Focus on the Family) in 2000. In it, these two men, both insiders from the Moral Majority, call on Christians to reject politics as a vehicle for positive social change and focus on setting a positive example, living lives consistent with their faith, and showing love and care to others without reservation. Both men admit they came to this revelation over time, and I applaud them for being open to change. The fact is that the opinion Cal expresses above is one he has held for many years now.

Incidentally, it's a little known fact that Cal Thomas and Ted Kennedy are good friends. They disagree on just about everything politically, but they connect based on their common humanity. He's not the demon so many on this post want to make him out to be.

If we are ever to become a nation again and stop this constant verbal battery of one another, it starts with giving people the grace to grow and change, and to love them even if they don't.

Young Blood,

Yeah...Chinese secular fascists allied with islamic fundamentalists...sounds about as plausible as Iraqi secualar fascists allied with islamic fundamentalists...oh, sorry, you bought that last one didn't you?

Moron.

Highschool is out apparantly

ULKCK Sean?

Anonymous, do you believe that those who consider themselves secular know nothing about religion? Never believed, never asked the questions you do? Wish they could believe and be relieved of taking sole responsibility for everything they have done? Surely there are too many people who scoff at the religious, just as there are too many Christians who are dismissive of other religions, about which they know nothing and don't want to know. They just want to talk the talk.

Who are those who have solitary viewpoints? Those who are so enamored of their own theology or ideology that they become blind to their own conceits. Noone is exempt form this hubris. Most everone can appreciate the views of others so long as they pluck the stumps from their eyes, be they Christian, Muslum or Jew. Or secular. It's part of walking the walk, as Jesus said. Look it up, its in the Sermon.

I think this is the first clear and compelling, not to mention accurate, statement I have ever heard from Cal Thomas. Faux News is gonna be P1SS3D!! They're lackies aren't supposed to go around making sense and telling the truth!!

sena, Paganus and anonymous are you all gay?

I agree with Cal Thomas fully. He is a man of wisdom.

RE Anonymous,

LOLOLOL!

Shoot, there goes the neighborhood I guess....

young blood:
Colleagues,

When the Islam starts to conquer the middle east and Russia, China jump on the same wagon to annihilate the US and Israel, you will surely pray to GOD……

you put the lime in the cocnut and shake it all up....

Colleagues,

When the Islam starts to conquer the middle east and Russia, China jump on the same wagon to annihilate the US and Israel, you will surely pray to GOD……

*secretly wants to know what all the $$$$$$ are hiding*

Young blood:
Sean,

your probably gay and lonely s$$$$$$ of B$$$$
that's why you call people names....

well i'll be darned. there goes one now.

if we are a christian nation then I want out. nothing drives me more nuts than hypocritical bible thumpers who refuse to open their eyes to reality. Reality being we're all just food for maggots in the end. Deal with it....Problem is humans have the ability to think, therefore we cannot come to grips with our own mortality, hence the reason for this security blanket we call religion (pick one, any one....)

Young blood:
Sean,

your probably gay and lonely s$$$$$$ of B$$$$
that's why you call people names....

you can only hope. wanna meet?

Sean,

your probably gay and lonely s$$$$$$ of B$$$$
that's why you call people names....

JSLU,

1) I have never claimed to be wiser than God. That is your rhetoric, not mine,

2)Science does not deal with the kind of "proof" you apparently have need of. Science deals with observation, evidence and promulgates theories based upon those observations and evidence. As new evidence is always coming into being, theories will change, fall into disfavor, be discarded, etc. Every scientist worth his salt will tell you that science is a constant work in progress, and therefore does not have all the answers humans seek. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT IT IS WORTHLESS. Science seeks to answer questions about the nature of the universe based on the best empirical evidence we currently have. As such, science CANNOT authoritatively prove the non-existence of something (as there is no evidence of something that does not exist), i.e. science cannot prove that an omnicient, omnipotent, omnipresent being doesn't exist. All an honest scientist can say is that science doesn't deal with questions like that.

Why do you believe in science because they have created some great things we can enjoy in our daily lives but yet only have theory of the creation of human kind… evolution-silly rabbit tricks are for kids!

because we have brains and like to use them?

Sorry, i meant to say that we should make our lives and those around us better.

I will have to weigh in on the side that often thinks Cal is just another partisan spinning pundit, but I found his comment today both truthful and meaningful. Mr. Thomas, would that all Christians could understand your point, it would be a better world for all.

"dominance dance" ! I like that!

Why do you believe in science because they have created some great things we can enjoy in our daily lives but yet only have theory of the creation of human kind… evolution-silly rabbit tricks are for kids!

I would like to see somebody asking this question in newspaper as a time when there will no churches or temples in Europe (already close to) or US, just mosques. Think of it!

to: paganus, sean and anyone else who thinks they are wiser than god!

Can you tell me which scientist can prove, not explain why we have a sun and a moon?
Can a scientist or your foolish expensive education prove the creation of human kind, not explain based on those stupid theories…

your hypothesis is flawed. I am but a humble janitor. your thesis is concocted in the same way neo-cons operate. They never really got past a 5th grade mentality for name calling, and immature one-liners.

JSLU, why can't you just accept you are here and make a difference in your life and in the lives of those around you without making it into a dominance dance?

Why do you believe in science because they have created some great things we can enjoy in our daily lives but yet only have theory of the creation of human kind… evolution-silly rabbit tricks are for kids!

Why do you believe in science because they have created some great things we can enjoy in our daily lives but yet only have theory of the creation of human kind… evolution-silly rabbit tricks are for kids!

Why do you believe in science because they have created some great things we can enjoy in our daily lives but yet only have theory of the creation of human kind… evolution-silly rabbit tricks are for kids!

Christi, very well put. Adrienne well siad indeed.

only individuals can be Christian, not countries.

a christian is defined by those who make it so. you become one when you are accepted by them. contrast that with someone who does good for his fellow man (and woman), and needs not be rewarded with acceptance into a man-made mythology.

Of course America is a Christian nation!

1878 marked the first national Easter Egg roll
1923 was the first national Christmas tree

though perhaps we're changing:
2001 was the first national Hanukah menorah

anyone up for the first Eid al Fitr?
anyone up for the first national Passover seder?
first national meditation?
first national homage to the ancestors (perhaps in a Taoist or animist tradition)?

to: paganus, sean and anyone else who thinks they are wiser than god!

Can you tell me which scientist can prove, not explain why we have a sun and a moon?
Can a scientist or your foolish expensive education prove the creation of human kind, not explain based on those stupid theories…

Actually, Christians can be great people, with no flaws, and still be hated in this world...
Jesus did say that if/since the world hated him, then it would certainly hate his followers (Christians), so I expect many of the vulgar, sarcastic comments on this page. There are certainly enough "Christians" who go against the true teachings of Jesus, but so much of the anger against us was predicted a long time ago.
With that said, Christians who actually believe and follow the teachings of Christ have to stand up and confront those who are corrupting the church and begin to fight fiercely for the ways of Christ, which grants true freedom. I would certainly rather be in a faith where I can call and actually claim God as my Father like Jesus did, now that's freedom.

Wow, of all the people that are expressing their opinions here.

Funny thing is, You all forget that there is a difference between a right, and free will.

A right is given to you by a governing body in a land i.e. US-Bill Of Rights, Constitution.

Another funny thing is that even you atheists know you have free will, and that is given to you by God. The one and Only True God.

Therefore your argument is in vain. oh and to stay on topic, only individuals can be Christian, not countries.

The Bible is not of one voice on this matter, Brambleton - for judgement according to deeds (vs. faith) see also Ps 62:12; Jer 17:10; Ro 2:6; 1 Pe 1:17.

"Judge not lest ye yourself be judged."

very nicely said, Adrienne.

I am encouraged when I read comments from so many that indicate they do understand the U.S. Constitution and its protections and prohibitions on religion in this country.

It is still disheartening, however, to realize how little people seem to know about the real history of the United States. Beginning with the fact that the Pope of the Catholic Church issued Papal Bulls in 1491 and 1492 instructing the invaders from Spain, Portgugal, England, France, and other Christian nations to seize the lands in North, South, and Central America from the "savages and heathens" BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT CHRISTIAN! Following that these countries issued patents on land they did not own to other invaders/settlers/explorers who then began their violent march across the continent in the name of Manifest Destiny and, in the process, appointed clerics to take over the education of children and youth. Despite all of this, or maybe partially because of it, the framers made it clear that religion was not to be governmentally imposed or restricted.

Someday I would like the Catholic Church and the other Christian churches who participated in this largest genocide in the history of the world acknowledge and make restitution for these sins. And, maybe most importantly, remember how this country rose from stealing land from North American Indians; building an economy on the backs of slaves, black and Indian; keeping women in bondage and with virtually no rights for almost 500 years, and killing more people in its brief history than any other nation known to man.

We have the makings of a good country here, but we need to be more honest about who we are and what we have done in our history. You cannot impose your way of living on people because you think you are better than others. This government has tried to do that -- unsuccessfully -- against the surviving Indians of these lands. But we are still here, we still believe in our culture and our way of life, which was far superior to what the invaders
brought, and we will continue our struggle to make the U.S. a better place, respectful of all things and beings and grateful to be living in a world which is a perfect creation, with everything we need to live well. We just have to take care of it.

Your are probably shallow that's why you think that way. I pray that before your time here on earth you amend things with Jesus our lord so that you will perish.

i didn't write that gibberish. it's too bad someone else used my name to try and make me say something i didn't.

Screwed - If you're around for the Rapture, you'll get your one world religion.

no need to apologize. it was a bit confusing though. :)

Your are probably shallow that's why you think that way. I pray that before your time here on earth you amend things with Jesus our lord so that you will perish.

I think Jesus would have a fit if he could see what has been done in his name. He taught a humanist creed which disdained organized religion. He was into community and helping others and NOT judging them. He also explained his lessons so that the un educated of the time could understand. At some point in history the truely greedy found it to be aperfect tool to control others in order to enrich themselves.

The ONLY way to Heaven is through a relationship with Christ. "Nobody comes to the Father but through Me".

Richard Dawkins was on Stephen Colbert the other night talking about the New Atheism. There's also a cover article on the New Atheism for Wired this November. With all the religious fascists in the US and around the world maybe it's right to try and establish a religion of reason. If we could end ignorance and superstition and establish a world base on the universal declaration of human rights; that is a worthwhile goal.

Sorry sean that last one was directed at REPENT.

Mike,

Please give an example of how James Dobson is an "evil and greedy" man. I'm thinking you can't because the liberal left doesn't include that information in their talking points.

Bah. Bah. Bah. Bah.

Sean,

Like most of your kind, you do not even know your own Scripture. Read the end of Revelation again. At the end of time, after Christ has defeated Satan and has reigned for 1000 years, everyone will be judged "according to their deeds" - "kata ta erga." Even in your own eschatology, faith in Jesus is not necessary for salvation.

I meant "only ONE viewpoint from which to speak".

If I die as a Christian and find that there really is no God, what will I have lost?

If I die as a non-believer and find that there really is a God, what will I have lost?

Our so-called "Christian" leaders in government and on TV are not following a path of honesty, truth, and goodness.

these are exactly the losers to which i refer.

How on earth can we be a Christian nation when the entire Fundimentalist movement is acting contrary to what Christ preached? Are Fundimentalist's a pseudo-christian cult? Are they simply deluded people misled by greedy and evil men like Pat Robertson and James Dobson? Or are they actively and knowingly Satanists? I don't know, but they certainly aren't Christians.

Thank you for stating unequivically that the US is no better than any other nation in the eyes of God... and that it is the actions of those living in and running a country that determine the path it takes towards honesty, truth, and goodness.

Our so-called "Christian" leaders in government and on TV are not following a path of honesty, truth, and goodness.

repent:
sean, we will see who is the loser at the end

no, you won't. your loser-ness will keep you from seeing the truth.

Sean, it is the same logic Christians use to justify war and the death penalty.

sean, we will see who is the loser at the end!

People without a religious perspective have only viewpoint from which to speak.

um....what?

amen !!!!!!!!!

Speaking of seeing things through a single lens, wouldn't it make sense that the "religious right" sees things in a much more well-rounded way than the secular society? Think about it. Christians go to universities and colleges with liberal professors, read newspapers and magazines with a liberal agenda, etc. etc. People without a religious perspective have only viewpoint from which to speak.

what a bunch of losers.

Publius,

What your Latin translation of the pledge has to do with this discussion is beyond me, but I'm game.... Your translation is, appropriately, filled with barbarisms.

Obligo is far too fancy - "do, dare" would do just fine. "do fidem" = I pledge.

There's no need for the 1st person possessive adjective after a verb in the first person - it is implied, unless you want to say I pledge MY trust."

Why do you use quitatum instead of the more classical civitatum?

Why do you have "natione," in the ablative? Isn't it really simply an appositive to rei publicae, in the dative? cf. non dividendae, which you later put in the dative, which is more likely.

The ablative absolute "deo ducente" is a tendentious translation of "under God." "Under god" does not imply that god is "leading us" in any political sense, but rather that we are literally under him and subject to his will. That seems to be what Eisenhower was saying in 1954 when he signed the bill adding "under God" to the pledge, i.e. " the dedication of our Nation and our people to the Almighty." Just because you dedicate yourself to something doesn't mean it necessarily leads you politically.

Choose either "et" or "-que" - you don't need both unless you're trying to say "with liberty and and justice."

There is no need for "pro" before omnibus. "for all" is what the Romans and Greeks would have called a dative of interest, employed Classically without the preposition.

Cheers,

This country will go down the drain because of the greedy mentality and selfishness of the average man. See the problem is you believe too much in science and what you can see.

This country thinks it can just depend on man education along, wrong…. That’s why God will show this nation it can not only depend on its power, wealth and military…

Fools, watch closely the current events happening… see if just education, wealth and power will save you and your family???????

Humans don't have the capacity to understand the universe, much less their own place in the world, hence the need to create contructs that allow them to sleep at night.

No, the United States is not a Christian nation. To state that it is implies that we are a theocracy. With that said the laws that govern the land, including the constitution and the bill of rights have their basis in English common law, which is derived from Judeo-Christian laws and customs (like the 10 commandments). The founding fathers did not want to take God out of the laws or government, they wanted to prevent the government from establishing an official religion, thus preventing the government from using the religion as a means of taxing or oppressing the people of the United States, unlike what was done in England.

Mistakes may have long histories, but they are still mistkes.

"Declaring America as special..."

OK, for starters America is anywhere in North or South America. It is not a nation or a country. That is why customs people have yu say "I am a citizen of the United States." But fail to remember the United States of Brazil. But this is just plain dumb.

We have done it for long enough that those in Canada will not call themselves "Americans." But they are. As are those from Mexico, Honduras and even Chile.

With all dues respect, the rest of this is not all that coherent.

Will fact win over habit? Not in my lifetime.

But that does not make it right. Not any more than someone spouting "I could care less." when they don't care at all.

I take it back only for those who really believe in Jesus our lord….

everyone here is all greedy idiots and probably lonely gay man.... that's what the devil does to you...... foolssssssssss

To believe evolution is scientific suicide. Has anyone ever observed an scientific experiment that genuinely proves the hypothesis that one species can evolve to another? NO!! NEVER!! So, just don't call it science.

However, the Bible is full of the first hand testimony of people who saw the Red Sea part, Jesus alive after his crucifixion etc. Eyewitnesses. A court of law would consider that enough to convict.

Mr. Thomas has got this one right, as far as he goes. Along similar, but more powerful lines, is the age old question of justification: what it means to be Christian in the first place, individually or as a nation. Is it enough to talk the talk, or is it necessary to walk the walk? If were the latter, the issue Mr. Thomas raises here might be irrelevant. The reason the issue is so ripe today is that the "religious right" refuses to swallow the Sermon on the Mount whole and insists on interpreting the Sermon through the lens of Revelations, instead of the other way around.

Cal Thomas's comment is to the point, and his use of the biblical book of Isaiah is consistent whether or not the reader accepts the authority of his source and whether or not the source is American.

For the U.S. to be a Christian nation, this claim must be consistent with Christian sources of authority. Otherwise, the claim itself is not "christian." Cal Thomas astutely asserts that the Bible, a source of authority shared by all Christians, does not allow the claim that the U.S. or any nation is a christian nation. Cal Thomas is saying that the claim is internally inconsistent.

Nicely done and much needed!

PS The biblical injunction "You shall have no other gods before me" does not assume the existence of other gods. The operative principle here is: "You shall have...." People can treat as gods all sorts of things that are not really gods. Extreme nationalism is a great example.

"Up to this point, he's been strictly far right wing conservative, and supportive of various religious agendas to assume power in this country."

Thomas is most certainly a Chiristian and a conservative, but his book "Blinded by the Might" vigorously argues against the notion that the main goal of Christian conservatives should be to acquire political power. They should be engaged in the political process, but their sights should be set higher than that--toward bringing God's love to a world that desperately needs it.

It's easy to stereotype religious conservatives based on a few reactionary "leaders"--but those days are ending. Note the recent appearance of Sen. Obama at Rick Warren's church. If we can get past the reactionary sentiments of those on both the right and left, an opportunity is arising to make real progress on issues like AIDS--and that progress can be made without either side having to abandon principles.

I am simply amazed that people still believe in the fairy tales that constitute religion. To believe in god is to disdain intellect.

I notice how you conviently don't address the other seven points I make.

But to be clear, I did specify that poor people pay a greater percentage of their earnings in taxes. Which is true. For example, including sales tax, property tax and income tax, a poor person pays almost 50% of their INCOME in taxes, while a really rich person often pays less than 1%.

And I'm a libertarian, not a liberal. Michael Moore is a fraud. I don't think the rich should pay more taxes, I was just making the point that we can't be a Christian nation if we sin more than any other nation on earth.

Idiot

You cannot have a special relationship with God because there is no God.

I enjoy hearing Cal Thomas' nonsense because it is an occasion for me to let Christians have it. They deserve everything they get that's bad.

Mike,

Could you be any more of a sheep? Or maybe you've been hypnotized by that fat dweeb Michael Moore. Either way, your random thoughts are completely without merit. For example, in 2002, the top 50% of wages earners in the U.S. paid 96.03% of the TOTAL taxes. And in 2006, a married couple making less than $15,000 paid NO taxes whatsoever.

I could go on but it's probably useless. It's sad actually. You remind me of a quote attributed to Winston Churchill - "The greatest argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter".

Meam fidem obligo:
Vexillo quitatum Americae foederatarum,
et rei publicae, pro qua stat, uni natione
deo ducente, non dividendae, cum liberate et iustitiaque, pro omnibus.

America may not be a Christain nation, but religon does seem to have an influence in it today. Otherwise we would all just do what we think is good for the nation as opposed to what our religon tells us thats good. When religon goes into effect, most people can't seperate their political life from their religous life.

One nation under God?

What does Pontius Pilate need heaven for when he has fame?
Every week for more than a dozen centuries his name has been spoken by the billions who have recited the Creed ("...crucified under Pontius Pilate, died and was buried ...")
You can't buy that kind of publicity.

I was wondering this morning if Pontius Pilate is in Hell. If Jesus gave him the opportunity to accept Him as his personal saviour, and he rejected it, then Pontius is surely in Hell. But, maybe Jesus didn't make the offer, because if Pontius had accepted, then Jesus' crucifixion wouldn't have taken place. So perhaps Pontius is in Heaven and very confused.

Cal is right, but that doesn;t stop him from being an idiot.

I have no idea who Cal Thomas is, but what he says above is spot on.

I ask the lord to give us wisdom and help the goverment lead this nation in the right direction.

You may say all you want or make it sound good but it's everyone's individaul soul at risk of been perish if you dont not repent from sining....

Did someone slip something into Cal's teacup?

How interesting that he's not pushing the idea that the US is a "Christian nation."

Up to this point, he's been strictly far right wing conservative, and supportive of various religious agendas to assume power in this country.

Will the ultra-religious ever get over themselves and realize that a politician can indeed be a moral person without having to toot his horn about loving Jesus or being "born again?"

People who talk like that may indeed believe what they're saying, but its all just "code words" intended to connect with others like them.

Why else do you think politicians employ speech writers and staff whose specific purpose is to keep them informed on spiritual linguistics?

When it comes to politics, at the end of the day, it is never about "loving Jesus," but about power, influence and control over what the rest of us see, hear, read, etc.

Is it just me or does he look more smarmy without the mustache?

I do agree with what he says, just not for the reasons he gives.

I want my goverment very separated from my religion. By a mile thick wall if possible.

One is based in faith and one is based in reality. I'm just not sure which is which.

Mark, the only thing that "permeates virtually every aspect of our culture" is a love of money, and a willingness to commit the most egregious sins again and again in order to obtain more of it.

You man say alll you want to sound good but at on judgement day the lord will judge us indvidually.....

I'm dont hatr gays, however god made amn and woman period nothing in between...

YES, AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION AS IT PERMEATES VIRTUALLY EVERY ASPECT OF OUR CULTURE. AS TO IF WE HAVE A SPECIAL RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD OR ARE WE BETTER OR MORE SPECIAL THAN OTHER NATIONS, I AM UNSURE OF HOW YOU MAKE THAT LEAP TO SAY THAT IS WHAT THE STATEMENT MEANS OR IMPLIES. I THINK IT LIKELY THAT THE ARTICLE IS SIMPLY MEANT TO RAISE CONTROVERSY IN OUR CULTURE OF "THE ONLY BAD PRESS IS NO PRESS".

Gay activists miss the point. The sexual oppression of homosexuals by religious conservatives is a form of spiritual oppression. Gay rights are a function of religious freedom under the Bill of Rights rather rather than civil rights per se. Thus, the banning of gay marriage and civil unions by 25 states violates the constitutional prohibition against the establishment of state religion.

Surely there are other reasons the United States cannot be considerd a "Christian Nation":
This year we murdered more innocent people around the world than any other nation, we regularly murder our own citizens if they go astray and break the law, we deny our poor citizens access to health care, food and shelter, we are destroying the earth with our gluttony at a far greater rate than any other nation, we value money over good deeds, we make the poor pay a greater percentage of their income in total taxes than the rich, etc...

god help me, i find myself agreeing with cal thomas.

can the rapture be far behind?

Well, all I can say after reading Cal's post is that even a blind pig finds acorns now and then. Unfortunately his history shows that next week he will be back to blaming everything on the Clenis.

NF, there's a slight distinction that needs to be made here. Israel in the Old Testament was bound together through an ethnic tie - all of their families descended from the people of the covenant with Abraham. Before the coming of the Holy Spirit, this special covenant tied all of Israel to the Lord.

In New Testament times, individual believers are tied to the Lord through their faith and the Holy Spirit. Thus, SOME Americans have this tie to the Lord, and we must tell others the Good News to spread this tie to all mankind so they may be saved. There is no special relationship with the United States - it is with individual Christian believers, and God can bless those individuals' nations when they turn to him. Look at South Korea - a nation truly blessed because many people turned to Christ. I doubt though many American Christian conservatives would want to cede American status and power in the world to South Korea!

Mr. Thomas may have found a rationale for why the United States is not a Christian nation by defintion, but it is hardly the reason why it is so.
The 'Christian-ness' of the United States has little to do with what Old Testament prophets said about "the nations."
The character of the United States is determined by two things -- those people who make up the United States and the facts of the nation's founding.
Thomas addressed the first -- not every American is a Christian, therefore it would be inaccurate, on that basis, to call it a Christian nation.
He is silent on the second.
At the founding of the nation in the late 18th century, the issue of religion was considered by the framers of the U.S. Constitution.
The decided that there would be no religious test for public office.
They allowed those public officials, for reasons of religious belief, to affirm oaths of office rather than swear to them.
They fixed the first Tuesday after the first Monday in November as Election Day so that it would not conflict with religious observances on Saturdays, Sundays and Nov. 1.
The ratifiers of the Bill of Rights went further -- They amended the Constitution to prohibit government from establishing a state religion. The Constitution was also amended to prohibit the government from interfering with the free exercise of religion.
What is the cumulative effect of these actions?
It is clear that the American nation, through a constitution established and ordained by the people, has tried to avoid entanglements with religion, either personal or institutional.
What Thomas wrote doesn't help anybody, because it quotes someone who wasn't even an American.
If America is a Christian nation, that question ought to be answered by Americans.
With that said, I would say James Madison already answered this question.

You didn't address Calvin's message either. You address the "extremists". How does that help?

"Thou shalt not have no other gods before me" or, in modern versions, "you shall have no other gods before me."

Does this not suggest:

i. there are other gods
ii. you can have other gods after me
iii. as someone above pointed out, this is a double negative. In that case, it might mean "thou may have all sorts of gods before me, but I am the final god." But then what would you expect someone purporting to be repeating what god said to say? Surely god is not going to say, "yo, it's fine to have any number of gods and I'm just one in the pantheon."

The author says that people who believe that there is some special relationship between America and god and who forget that people are christians, not nations, are in danger of breaking the commandment.

Well, it seems to me that believing that the Bible is god's word is to believe the guys who wrote parts of the Bible and claimed that it came from god. How can a human being accept such a declaration from another human being without proof and proceed to believe it? Isn't that the height of blasphemy if there indeed is a god? Would he/she/it, this hypothetical god who, according to some scribe, has chosen to speak through him, be ticked off?

OTOH, if it makes you happy to believe that, go for it.

Grade for Mr. Thomas' grammar: F

--Cal Thomas' grammar teacher

Although I typically disagree with Mr. Thomas, in this case I agree entirely. This is a concept that I wish more commentators on the religious right would remember. While America may have a Christian heritage, we are not, in fact, it is not possible to be, a "Christian" nation.

Yet was not Israel a favored nation until they turned from God, and then they were destroyed as he has proclaimed they would be. Isn't any nation who is obediant to God's law a nation under God and by Gods words, do not they get God's blessings?
Calvin Thomas is religious but not spiritual, the opposite of most people. He goes the way the wind blows him. In a few years he will feel very comfortable as a Dhimmi quoting from the Koran and moralizing against the rebellious Christians who believe God's words.

I agree with Aslan365, partially: I'm a typical diehart DC liberal, and I always disagree with Cal Thomas's comments on WTOP, but his comment above is exactly right, meaningful, even beautiful. Seriously. I'll never think the same way about his WTOP missives again. And the Isaiah quote IS TOO completely on-point.

That double negative isn't biblical irony, it's a Cal Thomas inaccuracy.
He got the Ten Commandments wrong. He's got an unnecessary "not" in there.

Here's the proper citation:

Exodus 20:3 (King James Version):

" 3Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"Nothing he says is ever worth the time it takes to listen to or read him"

Hey candide,

Why did you read it then....don't be a hypocrite and think before you speak...I'm sure you just feel like criticizing some one....I don't necessarily agree but I would not read it and then state he is never worth reading, that just shows your own ignorance....

Americans don't need religion to justify their nationalism. They think they are better than everyone else, and God has nothing to do with it.

Is faith in Isaiah the prophet the same thing as faith? If I am to agree with you then I must have faith in your source. How well have you authenticated your source?

Interpretation 1501, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul will help your authentication of that great instrument in which we must have faith else we shall be burned forever in the fires of hell.

Is there an absolute relationship between faith in God and faith in "the Bible is the word of God?" Does anyone have faith in God?

Mr. Thomas- you separated the priorities nicely.

Actually, this is among the best of the writings I've seen from Cal Thomas. I'm not sure the quote from Isaiah has much to do with his point, though.

It is interesting that two of those who have responded to this "extremist" journalist have posted only extremely negative comments. Their only opinion on the question or Cal's response is to call names. Isnt that exactly what one of the greatest problems is in this country now? We don't address the issue at hand, rather we exchange barbs and insults all the while the people who the issue affects suffer. It reminds me of campaign commercials. If you truly want to say something of substance,speak to the problem that the problems that the notion of a "Christian Nation" truly evokes.

"Thou shalt not have no other gods before me."

Loving the irony of ye olde double negative.

"Things are not what they appear to be: nor are they otherwise." - Buddha

"Life and love are life and love, a bunch of violets is a bunch of violets, and to drag in the idea of point is to ruin everything. Live and let live, love and let love, flower and fade, and follow the natural curve which flows on, pointless." - D. H. Lawrence

"And the end of all our exploring,
Will be to arrive where we started,
And know the place for the first time."
- T. S. Elliot

"Ten thousand flowers in spring
the moon in autumn,
a cool breeze in summer,
snow in winter.
If your mind isn’t clouded by unnecessary things,
this is the best season of your life."
- Wun-Men

Schuyler Duquesne: I couldn't have said it better.

Cal Thomas is a blowhard who is born again. Nothing he says is ever worth the time it takes to listen to or read him. He is an extremist, his name Cal(vin) is most appropriate.

Twist scripture or don't twist scripture - the syntactic content is still zero. I reject the premise that there is any value to be derived from any scripture - as I have access to Sam's Club, I can get all the toilet paper I want at a discount, and so have no need of scripture.