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http://cesta-varazdin.com/eng/tvrtka.html >Cesta Varazdin
http://www.seminarystreet.com/

antispasmodic flashing cyrtolite gastrosophy preincentive hoistaway chilostomatous theatricalize
http://www.theosophy-nw.org/theosnw/ctg/ctg-hp.htm >Collation of Theosophical Glossaries
http://www-math.cudenver.edu/~aknyazev/software/L/

antispasmodic flashing cyrtolite gastrosophy preincentive hoistaway chilostomatous theatricalize
http://www.saintpetercatholic.com/ >Saint Peter Catholic Church
http://www.saltcitycandle.com/

"THE-LION" Eeeeee Haaaaa!

"And I ask again, what religion and what sacred scripture would find that prayer offensive?"

Any prayer is offensive when imposed upon a person who does not want to hear it, such as a prayer recited at the start of a legislative session.

"A prayer recited, Sir, at the start of a legislative session, is offensive and not done well, but one is surprised to find it done at all in a civilized society."

Ah, well, Raymond: Jacob speaks his own language, takes a while to figure out. Not sure what he's on about just lately, but he's apparently retreated to his way being the only right way, whatever he proposes, there.

But if you can't be a heuristic photon, why get spiritual, really. :)

On this:

"My other point was that the "Founding Fathers" really muddied the issue when they inserted reference to the Creator."

Well, actually, it's our contemporary Religious Right figures who insert the Christian Dominionist mud... In their own times, the meaning of this language was quite clear... A Deist language of reason which didn't offend those given to religiosity.

People who say, "Ah ha! Creator means they were Jonathan Edwards followers before their time!..."

Well, sorry, that's just failure to understand the language and philosophy at the time. Unlike the Bible biblical literalists are used to trying to eke absolute pronouncements commanding whatever they want out of, this is actually well-documented.

The rest is obfuscation. The way the Founding Fathers say it, 'Creator' is a slightly awkward concept to my theology a worst... (I can say, 'That's how Lady made me,' but not in terms of 'I'm artifice.' ... The way 'Christian Nation' and 'Creation' advocates say it, (as in piling on Biblical literalism where it'd take schizoid reasoning to even *think* it might fit,) ...it's a glaring inconsistency.

It's not what they meant.

What they did mean to say is that we hold it to be *self-evident* that we are endowed by our Creator (as in, by the nature of Creation itself... inherently, unalienably) ...with certain unalienable rights...

These are rights which are not dependent upon the permission or intercession of any personal or conceptual God... We agree in our Constitutional social contract that we hold it to be ... *self-evident* that *certain rights* are unalienable...

Not by government, religion, or even someone's idea of God... Unalienably, inherently endowed with certain rights.

Which neither government, religion, or someone's idea *actively confers or can take away.*

Endowed. Unalienably. From 'Creation.'

Among these rights are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

This is the basis.

Not the Bible.

You can choose to honour these American ideals, but they do not come from, they are not granted by, they are not alienable by your Bible.

You're each and every one, just another American.

Welcome to it.

To Jacob JOZEVZ: I am not trying to be mean or anything, but I have no idea what you are trying to say. Could you maybe summarize?

Are you saying that proof of or knowledge of "eclat God" is derivable from observation of particles (protons) and quantum physics? Isn't this sort of physics interpretation a myth system as much as a holy story book is --- a means for recording and transmitting observed actions of G-D?

Also, if there is never sin, how do you explain corrupt politicians? Do they just *not exist* in your worldview?

-RT

Pagenplace said: "Even if you somehow believe Abrahamic tradition is 'consistent' on your unitary authority, you may just find...America is not. Our government is for all of us. Of the people, by the people, for the people, Or it's nothing. "

Yes, I agree completely. That was my main point.

My other point was that the "Founding Fathers" really muddied the issue when they inserted reference to the Creator. For Christians, we generally think it ok to worship the Creator God but we (mostly) do not believe that non-Believers should be *forced* to worship this God. God himself gives people the right *not* to worship Him so why would Christians interject a different standard? It is important to Christians that they are neither be forced to worship nor to be perceived to be worshiping non-God gods. Abolishing official congressional prayers would extend that right to all Americans.

Raymond:

"Admittedly, the United States is not the nation of Israel or founded upon the authority of the Hebrew Bible..."

That should be enough, really.

"but there is certainly ample religious precedent in the Judeo-Christian regard polytheistic worship as "adulterous" to the One True God of the Universe. Nothing against the polytheists, but they have misidentified where their bread is buttered."

Umm, in American democracy, there's neither bread nor butter in accepting the 'Judeo-Christian' religious belief that other religions are of lesser dignity or even authority.

Saying, 'Not worshiping my God is 'adulterous' to my God who is used to define whatever's convenient to call 'adultery' as an ultimate spiritual crime... is both circular theologically and irrelevant in terms of representative democracy.

So, what's your prescription here for a Godly Congress: Give us this day our daily bread, with butter for Christian conservatives and a side of pork for the Calvinists?

As for how my Gods actually treat me, don't you worry. Not shaking, here.

"The faiths of the Abrahamic tradition are consistent on the monotheistic nature of God."

Unless, of course they start Eurpoean wars over trinitarianism, Arianism, burn crosses on Catholic lawns, set off car bombs to kill other Abrahamics, say the UCC is being 'too controversial for TV' to say they welcome gay people as gay people, or scuffle about any other 'heresies,' of course...

Even if you somehow believe Abrahamic tradition is 'consistent' on your unitary authority, you may just find...

America is not.

Our government is for all of us.

Of the people, by the people, for the people,

Or it's nothing.

"And this is the crux of the issue: The State is not the Church, but the state explicitly recognizes “The Creator.” "

Ok, it's the 'cross' of the issue. ...The state may recognize a Creator, but does not *define* said Creator.

Would you like some Brahma, now? :)

"These Christian protesters aren’t trying to stir up division; they are calling the Church to be loyal to its Creator."

They're in the wrong damn building, then.

lepidopteryx:, the con men who started Judaism attempted to write the first commandment so it would eliminate all gods except their one true God. In the process they eliminated their one true God as well.

Tell me true, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is not so. There really was a supernatural being, (required first before deciding IT is God) in that burning bush. And, you faith that being to be God. Well, if you do you violate the first commandment. It's an image of God and images of gods are out ala the first commandment.

Yes there may well be a God. Could be many Gods. We have no way of knowing. Even if we are visited by a wingie people looking critter that says it's God's representative we have no way of verifying that's so. That it comes from God must be taken on faith. Faithing unexpected critters or voices coming from balls of fire to be God can be hazardous to one's eternal life for that could be the Devil as well as God.

Step 1, verify that it's really God or God's representative. Did you notice that the biggest money goes to those who have the largest faith flocks? Isn't that symptomatic of something? One simple question: does sale of soul to Devil bring the wealth of earth to seller? If no then forget it. If so then wouldn't it make sense that those causing others to unknowingly sell their souls will get the big money? All faith is that God looks like a ball of fire, a violation of the first commandment and guaranteed to send one to hell ala all faiths in ball of fire God.

lepidopteryx:, that's really nice. You should charge for that kind of philosophy and advise others, like Dr Phil for example. Call it faith, find some obscure Biblical statement to support you, (not really necessary that it actually supports your theory) get tax breaks and massive government money when there are disasters like Katrina.

Jacob Jozevz:, is [The ONE RELIGION [system] "BOOK OF O.U.R."] on the net? I'm too poor to buy a copy, spend all my time blogging instead of working, welfare is zip and all those religious charities are letting me starve, keep asking me for money. Is that book what you want "credit" for from me? I'm giving you credit but I don't know what for. Credit's all I got to give, usually ask where I can send the money.

That's not http://www.hoax-buster.org is it?

Rich:
"Nothing against the polytheists, but they have misidentified where their bread is buttered."

Nothing against the monotheists, but what's wrong with buttering both sides of the bread? Or for that matter, all six sides of the loaf?

"Many Christians are concerned about the definition of marriage precisely because they feel that the mysterious love relationship between a man and a woman embodies the mystical mutual love relationship between opposites – between the Creator God and his Church."

Which is why religious marriage and legal unions need to be two entirely separate things. Any adults who wish to do so should be able to equally benefit from the legfal perks associated with legal unions. The blessing of the church should be separate and in no way legally binding. We should not have clergy acting as agents of the state by performing religious rituals that result in a change of legal status.

"The State is not the Church, but the state explicitly recognizes “The Creator.”"

And nowhere does it specify that the Creator being referred to is the Judeo-Christian version.

"The polity of the United States depends on no divinely ordained priestly order, but implicitly assumes a God that holds its leaders accountable (swearing in leaders with their hands on religious books) and provides universally accessible principles of justice."

A god - not The God. That means whatever god (if any) the person in question believes in.
Use of holy books or other objects for swearing in purposes is for photo-ops only. The actual swearing in takes place in chambers beforehand, and uses no book or other object. In fact, the use of any objects for the official swearing in is actually forbidden. Adams was publically sworn in with his hand on a law book, not a Bible.

"Christian protesters have the freedom to protest false forms of worship, but the state has the obligation to jail them if they interfere with the orderly conduct of official business of the state. The question is: Is a prayer invocation (by Hindus or otherwise) OFFICIAL BUSINESS?"

Since Congress has opted to retain the custom of opening session with a prayer, the invocation becomes part of the business.

JJ:
Satan is a Christian thing.

From my admittedly limited understanding, Kali is not evil - she is both the life-giver and the life-taker - the opening and closing of the circle of life.

I talk to my dead grandmother often.

My grandmother taught me to cook (the woman could serve a casserole made from Michael Jordan's sweat socks and have you asking for seconds), and when I need an idea for something different, or am creating a new dish, I often ask for her advice. And when I do, ideas come. Are they from her? Maybe, maybe not. It could well be that vocalizing simply focuses my subconscious on the problem and brings out ideas that were already brewing there. I am one of those people who think out loud. (It drives my husband nuts because he says he never knows whether or not to respond when he hears me talking. He doesn't want to interrupt my thought process, but doesn't want me to think he's ignoring me. We finally agreed that I would preface questions or ideas directed to him with "Tell me what you think about..." or something similar).
But if adressing my questions about dinner to my dead grandmother helps me reach my goal of bringing something nutritious, tasty, and aesthically pleasing to the table, what's the harm?

"And to those religious leaders who sought to stir up hatred and division, I ask: Where in their gospel does it call for disrespecting the faith of another major religion?"

Admittedly, the United States is not the nation of Israel or founded upon the authority of the Hebrew Bible... but there is certainly ample religious precedent in the Judeo-Christian regard polytheistic worship as "adulterous" to the One True God of the Universe. Nothing against the polytheists, but they have misidentified where their bread is buttered.

The faiths of the Abrahamic tradition are consistent on the monotheistic nature of God. Keywords: "Shema, Monotheism" ... “Hear, O Israel, the Lord God is ONE” … “Exodus 20:2-5 you shall have no other gods before me.” “John 17:21: that they may all be one" And don't forget the Islamic tradition: "There is no god but Allah!"

Last week’s “Hosea Chapter 1” reading in the Revised Common Lectionary (a 3-year cycle of bible readings used by most mainline congregations) compares following other people’s religions to prostitution – worshipping false gods is compared to cheating on your spouse. Many Christians are concerned about the definition of marriage precisely because they feel that the mysterious love relationship between a man and a woman embodies the mystical mutual love relationship between opposites – between the Creator God and his Church. When the Church decides to do something besides “loving God back” then it deserves the of wrath the jilted Lover.

These Christian protesters aren’t trying to stir up division; they are calling the Church to be loyal to its Creator.

And this is the crux of the issue: The State is not the Church, but the state explicitly recognizes “The Creator.” The constitution prohibits establishment of religion, but invokes the Divine in deriving natural rights. The philosophical foundations of the State are mostly, but not solely, founded on secular principles like “the consent of the governed.” The polity of the United States depends on no divinely ordained priestly order, but implicitly assumes a God that holds its leaders accountable (swearing in leaders with their hands on religious books) and provides universally accessible principles of justice.

Christian protesters have the freedom to protest false forms of worship, but the state has the obligation to jail them if they interfere with the orderly conduct of official business of the state. The question is: Is a prayer invocation (by Hindus or otherwise) OFFICIAL BUSINESS?

"And to those religious leaders who sought to stir up hatred and division, I ask: Where in their gospel does it call for disrespecting the faith of another major religion?"

Admittedly, the United States is not the nation of Israel or founded upon the authority of the Hebrew Bible... but there is certainly ample religious precedent in the Judeo-Christian regard polytheistic worship as "adulterous" to the One True God of the Universe. Nothing against the polytheists, but they have misidentified where their bread is buttered.

The faiths of the Abrahamic tradition are consistent on the monotheistic nature of God. Keywords: "Shema, Monotheism" ... “Hear, O Israel, the Lord God is ONE” … “Exodus 20:2-5 you shall have no other gods before me.” “John 17:21: that they may all be one" And don't forget the Islamic tradition: "There is no god but Allah!"

Last week’s “Hosea Chapter 1” reading in the Revised Common Lectionary (a 3-year cycle of bible readings used by most mainline congregations) compares following other people’s religions to prostitution – worshipping false gods is compared to cheating on your spouse. Many Christians are concerned about the definition of marriage precisely because they feel that the mysterious love relationship between a man and a woman embodies the mystical mutual love relationship between opposites – between the Creator God and his Church. When the Church decides to do something besides “loving God back” then it deserves the of wrath the jilted Lover.

These Christian protesters aren’t trying to stir up division; they are calling the Church to be loyal to its Creator.

And this is the crux of the issue: The State is not the Church, but the state explicitly recognizes “The Creator.” The constitution prohibits establishment of religion, but invokes the Divine in deriving natural rights. The philosophical foundations of the State are mostly, but not solely, founded on secular principles like “the consent of the governed.” The polity of the United States depends on no divinely ordained priestly order, but implicitly assumes a God that holds its leaders accountable (swearing in leaders with their hands on religious books) and provides universally accessible principles of justice.

Christian protesters have the freedom to protest false forms of worship, but the state has the obligation to jail them if they interfere with the orderly conduct of official business of the state. The question is: Is a prayer invocation (by Hindus or otherwise) OFFICIAL BUSINESS?

First, Sen. Harry Reid and the United States Senate should be congratulated and supported for inviting big tobacco Chairman Rajan Zed, a recent immigrant to American from Nevada, to deliver the opening smoke at the opening of a Senate session. America is one nation with many tobacco companies and many brands. All of our great brands of nicotine and delivery systems share the highest qualities, workmanship, and flavors. And Chairman Zed’s oath swearing that nicotine is not addictive fit perfectly in that tradition.

bravo reverend gaddy

He who stands for nothing will fall for anything.