Brandishing Religion is Not a Political Strategy

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http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/europe/02/04/austria.02/index.html >Austrian chancellor We are no pariah state
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Hi

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http://members.tripod.com/golmard/ >Golmard, Jerome
http://www.cookbooks.org/

BGone and others-

I know one post isn't going to change anything... but I'd like to apologize for anything that Christians have done to you in the past that make you hate us so much. We are supposed to live for God and rely only on the peace that he gives us and his promise of heaven, but so often Christians want the benefits now: political power, being able to take pride in their "holiness", using religion as a weapon.

I'd like to come to you and say that I'm sorry for how religion is being used. I think real Christianity is inherently grassroots; it's something that happens in local churches like the one's the apostle Paul set up. It isn't about powerful top-down organizations with political connections. If Jesus wanted it that way, he would have overthrown Caesar and made a "Christian nation" himself.

BGone, I just hope that you won't judge Christians only by the one's you hear about who shout the loudest and use fear to unite Christians in a common hatred of gays and pregnant teens and liberals, or by one's who have hurt you in the past with their hatred. That's why I applaud what Interfaith Alliance is doing. I hope that one day you'll find some good Christians and see what it's all about.

Is there a tie between the Christian Reconstructionist movement and staff at Fox? If so it, would be no surprise to find out it was Fox that reported a negative report on Barack Obama.
I have often wondered how Fox is able to report what they say as news, when I've noticed there appears to be more commentary than actual news in the reports I've watched on their station. Isn't it time we held broadcast news personnel and companies as responsible for their utterances as the law requires from printed news reports? Sorry, I strayed away from the subject matter.

Dryice,

Thanks for the very important lesson.

Ummm, in Islamic belief, there is One God,that precedes everything. Describing God as Alpha and Omega sounds like a biologists describing apes.

By the way, if I understand American e-mail or postings etiquette correctly, using all capital letters is akin to shouting. I hear you, but that does not mean I completely understood what is being asked or said. I can't be certain if it is cultural or due to my level of English.

Surely you do know that not everyone here is American and English is not their mother tongue. People like me read On Faith to see what Americans really think and believe.

It was very educational and comforting to read many postings by people of different religious affiliations and even by non-believers, share the same concerns as me.

I personally think that religion is easiest to use as a means to divide people and stir up hate. There is nothing good religion can inspire that secular society cannot also inspire, whereas the incredible fear and loathing religion causes is rare, absent religion. Essentially, religion is socially obsolete.
Just as religious arguments held back things like vaccinations, epidurals, emancipation, and women's suffrage on religious grounds, it is holding things back today. The difference is, global warming and the war in Iraq (which have been highly facilitated by religiosity)are HUGE problems that will cause very longlasting, potentially permanent effects in our world.
Lastly, religion seems to me like a blank check on marality. I know that is more often said about atheism, but it doesn't seem that way to me. Religious texts are so vague and contradictory that any act can be justified. ANY act, especially if it facilitates advancing the "true" religion or "true faith." There need not be any argument for social utility, just fear and mob mentality. It makes me so sad. Still, I'm tentatively optimistic, given the slow movement of people away from religion in the broader world.

Jihadist:
It is quite simple. It what man thinks what God said and meant that leads to divisions for eons now - the interpretation of what they think God wants.

THE MOST IMPORTANT LESSON WHICH CAN NOT BE CORRUPTED IS THAT GOD IS FIRST. THAT SHOULD PREVENT ANY AND ALL WIDE-SPREAD CORRUPTION OF THE WORD. EVENTUALLY IT ALWAYS DOES, IT JUST DOESN'T SEEM AS THOUGH IT HAPPENS FAST ENOUGH, OR MORE LIKELY THE LEADER OF GREAT PROMISE GETS CORRUPTED ALONG THE WAY... GOD IS THE ALPHA AND THE OMEGA. THERE CAN BE NO ROOM FOR LIES WHEN THIS IS TRUE. WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS, BELIEVES, OPINIONS???

Dear Rev. Gaddy, God Bless your work at bridging the inter-denominational faith gaps that pervert the Word into a tool or device. I agree with you. The marriage of religion and politics in our country perverts both beyond redemption. They must get an annulment or a no-fault divorce as soon as possible. Two totally different creations of mankind. Their offspring can only be demonic.

It is quite simple. It what man thinks what God said and meant that leads to divisions for eons now - the interpretation of what they think God wants.

Certainly the more compelling and charismatic persuaders of their versions of religion and visions of God got their way with some people throughout history and create havoc and divisions.

Is there any room in the Interfaith Alliance for those with faith the Bible is the word of Devil? Since the Bible is official then why isn't all faith in it acceptable? Are we doing government controlled dogma findings, the government says the Bible is God's word and there is no alternative faith allowable? Faith the Bible is the word of a supernatural being isn't enough, it must be YOUR supernatural being?

Thank a lot for nothing. Take your Alliance and...

I am saddened that we have come to see only religious zealots as definers of Jesus Christ. The politicians do not speak for Christ, nor do religious zealots, nor might I add do those of you who are so filled with rage against any people of faith. Judge me as an individual, not based on my religion. Christ's life speaks for itself (forget the movies and go to the source and read what he had to say). I support religious freedom in this country for all people not just one group or another. Mention your faith if you must, but don't use it as a sword to chop people up. Interfaith Alliance is doing a good work. Keep it up.

Oh BA'AL but what if they are so? Can you prove they are not so? Where there's smoke there's fire.

Where there's fire there's God. "Man on fire" is God? Men on fire frequently use the word God.

Religion these days is used to carry out political smear campaigns.

Just look at recent (and now completely discredited) Fox News reports on Barrack Obama. Even if the reports were true (and they turn out to be deliberate lies) so what? The perpetrators know that they are tapping into a deep vein of prejudice to attack someone they fear.

Religion is a very very negative force in American politics.

In England we do things differently but we do them as though it's the rest of the world that's strange.

A recent BBC survey on religious belief showed that most English people are best characterized as being of "vague faith".

The traditional English attitude toward religion is like that toward children; religion should be seen but not heard. We drag it out in public only for christenings, weddings, and funerals to resist influences from non-Christian cultures when we suspect they are becoming to strong.

We believe that the importance of religiosity persists most strongly among vulnerable populations, especially those living in poorer nations, facing personal survival-threatening risks.

I have found that one cannot fight another ones kind of blind 'faith' with someone else's blind 'faith. If reputable scientists cannot be made to agree that there are important intellectual and moral differences between knowing something and pretending to know it, we are doomed.

Jeannette - that's a very good idea. An atheist once said that he did not cheat because HE would know. A Christian can cheat, go see the representative of Jesus, drop a $20 bill in his palm and get forgiven. The atheist has no where to go and seems to me to understand that only the offended CAN forgive. Beware of third party forgivers I always say.

The key to a harmounious society begins in kindergaten with the values taught to the children. Mr Bush and the neo cons don't look all that righteous to me, have the kind of values children need to be taught. Evidently I'm not the only one that thinks Christian values amount to how much value can be extorted from the family with threats of hell beginning with the children. The children are our treasure, the future. They're being abused by all three great faiths.

Andy Rooney once said something to the effect that there was nothing wrong with the public schools, their teachers or managment. "What we need is better students" is what he said. Hard to disagree. Where are all these bad students coming from? What can be expected from Jesus Boot Camp that did not come from Hitler Youth Camp?

I agree that morality can be taught without the influence of religion, it can be taught as a mechanism of good citizenship - no stealing, no murder, respect for the rights of others, no lying-bearing false witness (although we shouldn't ignore that most of our common law was based on the religious concept of the value of each person). It can begin in kindergarten, where we can emphasize that each child is the designer of their society and it will only be as good as they allow it to be. (while we are at it, can we do away with the no tattletale rule?)

BEGONE - I had more cake than anybody. Know your right.

To win a war, any war the enemie's God must be defeated for it is from his God he get's his stength to fight. The war on terror is a war on all Gods for all Gods are Gods of terror. "We must fear God" is the most common statement by an evangelical, fear mongers. Hell is the greates terror any man could invent. The hell preachers are the enemy's agents. Either we surrender to God's will or we fight. The choice is ours.

The hell preacher is not qualified to lead the fight for freedom for he preaches the glories of the KINGDOM of God. God is the enemy.

We are being fed the "cow pile" cake, pure BS trimmed and sweet sugar frosted. It's far better to find out what it is before taking a bite.

The great danger of "When politicians cloak themselves" in anything it will be attacked by the opposition. Now take Mr Kerry "reporting for duty" and add "swift boat veterans for truth" to get what? How about a political assination?

God may not be ATTACKED therefore politicians may cloak themselves in God. Wrong!!!!

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul The God that attacks a candidate for president of the United States of American is Devil.

That's only the beginning. The United States of America was attacked by "A" God. The United States of America has "a few good men" who's job it is to shoot anyone that attacks. God may not be shot. Wrong!!!! Check out that web site above and answer a simple question. If angels, (supernatural beings) can't be shot then why do they have shields?

You write: "When politicians cloak themselves in inappropriate religious language and portray anyone who questions their policies as opposing good — good that ought to triumph over evil — everything is absolutized, debate stops, and democracy is crippled. Any difference of opinion is no longer received as an idea worthy of honest consideration; it is rejected as if it were an expression of evil."

That is as good a description as I have ever read of the mentality of George W. Bush. It is especially scary when it is combined with the totalitarian instincts of Dick Cheney.

God Mubutu says if you kill, you shall go to hell. This includes all supporters of capital punishment who have sinned against God Mubutu in their thoughts and in their hearts. God Mubutu says if you hurt, exclude or bad-mouth others because of their religion, race or sexual orientation you will go to hell. Hell is full of Christian extremists who are very disappointed because Christ is not there among them. Hell for me would be spending eternity with these zealots so I will not break God Mubutu's commandments. I feel very heartbroken for those of you who sin against God Mubutu in the name of his friend Jesus Christ and I hope you will stop cherry picking scripture to satisfy your own ignorant and often politically motivated views. I can only pray to Jesus that you will one day see the errors of your ways. I also pray to Jesus to protect me from his followers especially the politicians. We can not elect anyone who does not have loyalty to the doctrine of God Mutubu.

Many now expect the return of their awaited Teacher, whether they call him the Christ, Messiah, the fifth Buddha, Krishna, or the Imam Mahdi. Millions now know that the Teacher who fulfills all these expectations is already living among us.

Maitreya, the World Teacher, has not come alone, but with a group of wise Teachers who have long guided humanity from behind the scenes.

They are returning to the everyday world to help us solve our most critical global problems. Maitreya is not a religious leader, but an educator in the broadest sense.

He is here to inspire us to create a new era based on sharing and justice, so that all may have the basic necessities of life: food, shelter, health care, and education.

His open mission in the world is about to begin. As Maitreya himself has said: 'Soon, now very soon, you will see my face and hear my words.'

http://share-international.org/

Is it a troll trolling a troll? Or a troll working with a troll? I pick Door Number 2. Beware.

"Whenever religion is tied to one partisan view, the role of religion as a nonpartisan healing force is damaged." -- Gaddy

I would amend the above to substitute one word - "personal".

"Whenever religion is tied to one partisan view, the role of religion as a "personal" healing force is damaged."

Religion is, above all, personal. And it should remain so.

Interesting article Tom. Kinda leaves me without much to say, mouth hanging open. Maybe a third party isn't such a bad idea. Where do we find a real independent? He's got an issue that Bubba is long time waiting to hear, the holy book is full of holes, and there are others of interest as well I see.

I am not a "dyed in the wool" Democrat. I vote the person and trust the press to show the candidates. I don't trust TV commercials or campaign rhetoric. I'd say I'm about 70, 30 DR. There are several R's I think are qualified and Colin Powell would definitely get my vote because I think he's honest to a fault. Honest, a very lonesome word in both politics and religion.

Historically, only liberal Democrats are qualified to conduct a war. They get my war vote every time. May I use Dubya as an example why? Nice part about liberal D's, they don't go looking for wars. Wars - events where lives are lost and property damaged that no one wins. Hooray for our side for we lost less than the bad guys.

Bgone.
Here is an article by Dick Eastman you may find interesting, or anybody else for that matter.
Peace. Tom
http://www.rense.com/general75/demp.htm

TOM - hoaxes must be taken on faith. They are like unto God, no proof possible they're so and none required by those with faith. This blog began with Godnicks demanding atheists prove there is no God. The atheists counter is prove there is a God. That's the usual shouting match, loudest shout wins I guess.

Then I came along only to announce their sacred scriptures are a hoax. And you have the nerve to ask them to prove God wrote the hoax.

Is the validity of the Bible relevant to a conversation about religion and it's nose everywhere from the womb to the bedroom? It's hanging around getting credit for a failed administration. Are we discussing how that administration came to be or working on the plan to create another failure? God has bad judgment picking presidents if you ask me and about 2 out of every 3 Americans.

OK I guess I use a curse word in my last post, as it did not get posted. I just wanted to comment to Jonathan on his remark about abortion. Why is it that the only time you worry about a child is when its in the womb. After that they become canon fodder.
600'000 + humans died in Iraq how many of them were children? According to your beliefs that would be 100% as far as your scriptures go God didn’t write them any entity that could create the universe would be a lot smarter than that. So stop using them unless you can prove they are true. Just Prove it and I will go away.
As far as gay people are concerned all I can say is after haveing been married to my lovely wife for 30 years now I can't see how on this earth if two men or women join together in marrage that is going to affect me. Get out of the womb and the bedroom if its not yours.

JONATHAN - Is the nation dying or already dead? Are those the crying anguish of the dying? No government has ever survived under the influence of religion for any significant period of time.

Those who slop from the religion garbage bucket have a responsibility to stay out of public affairs and keep their theories of sins to themselves. They are free to use them on their suckers who pay them so they can hate their neighbors in the name of God.

Your sacred scriptures are phony like Dubya's WMDs in Iraq. We don't need to be like Iraq knotted up in a civil war trying to save the constitution. That's where religion has always lead those who embrace it and make it's laws the law of the land. Stop sinning yourself and get your nose out of other people's business.

Jonathan,
I am not without god , I am of god. So you can't call me an atheisis but they as everybody and everything are of god. But my last comment on this page should make you aware of why so many people are getting tired of the nonsense of religion.
We are tired of tiptoeing around your fragile fearbased non sensiblities. Most of us are afraid of upsetting you so we just agree but those days are over for me. If you want to talk religion to me get ready for the truth and yes you will probably feel you are under attack but that a natural reaction for those of your brainwashing.

The Land Of the free we are not and largely due to how easy it is to manipulate the faith based through their fears. Which has always been the effect of religion. God is the omni presence that permeates everything and that is all any of us really know.
But while we are being side tracked and manipulated through our fears the racist fascist who control our monetary system are having a field day. For example I would rather smoke hemp than drink whiskey but I am not free enough in this country to do the more rational thing because somebody told you religious mental midgets that its the devils weed and I assure you that somebody had a big interest in pharmaceuticals
We can teach morality without religious brain washing. Religion is the very reason you were led into Iraq but God didn’t tell that baboon we call a president to go there. He went there on behalf of the controlling elite. They want the oil and the Zionist wants you to comment genocide for them.
Wake up, Wake Up! Stops being so dumb get out of your religious brainwash longs enough to see the truth.
And to all you preachers, priest, evangelist and so on stop spreading your fear based brainwash its damaging to do that to a young healthy mind, they wind up like you ignorant wrap up in fear can only trust others of the same brainwash. And remember THOU SHALL NOT KILL UNLESS THE CARLYLE CORPORATION CAN MAKE INTEREST ON IT!

So many of the atheists on these lists use the most extreme language like, "ludicrous" and are always telling us to get lost, take a hike, get a life etc. Feels very angry and hateful when they tell Christians they are ludicrous and should get lost. They claim the high ground with such vulgar meanness. Their rational views are shared with such irrational emotion attached. Their cries for compassion end with "get lost". Their passion for freedom is filled with "make public religious expression against the law." Cynicism simply never trumps faith unless the nation is dying.

Reverand - you speak words of wisdom that all should hear I can only hope enough will listen. You have some really good people on your side. They're dead now. That's Franklin, Jefferson, Madison and Adams. They said the "wisdom of the people" is superior to the "wisdom of the clergy" when things like putting the bacon on the table is the problem. You don't suppose they realized that all issues are actually economic?

I agree with Ken, I feel in my soul the same anger and frustration. My heart aches.

Brandishing the sword of faith in pursuit of public office should be a forbidden practice.

The so-called "faithful" suffer a profound fear, peculiar to the small-minded. They fear that, without the over-arching protection of an agency (God) upon which to hang responsibility for their own creation and upon whose glory to hitch their destiny-wagon, they will have to fall back on their own inadequate devices to determine right from wrong. Surely, being mere humans (although claiming the apex of creation), we cannot possibly have any way to determine right from wrong without the omniscient guidance of a God - “Great Sky-Father” - who himself exhibits the manners and ethics of a spoiled child.

Give me a break.

Scriptures tell us that Jesus told us to "render under Cesaer that which is Cesaer's" (gold, respect for rules) as the only thing of value that we had was our soul, which belongs to God. Jesus did not spout anti-government rhetoric, in fact the only reference to His anger was in regard to those who made profits off the faith of others. I place religion based politicians in that same boat as Jesus placed the money changers, after all they are both trying to get ahead off the backs of the faithful.

Religious rhetoric in political situations also leads me to believe the speaker is touting his religious beliefs as superior to others (especially his/her opponent). Such actions seem to me to be religious elitism, which is anti-American as it disregards the Declaration of Independence and equality for all citizens.
Some seem to feel they can hurry along the second coming, by "cleaning up the world." When did God die and leave them in charge??

To say that Jesus didn"t talk about abortion is not true. He talked about murder and taking an innocent life. Least you think Christ is impartial inthat arena, you will be in for a rude awakening in the hereafter, and contrary to those that do not believe in Christ, they will also be in for a rude awakening, for there is no other way into God's kingdom, so saith He, Himself. As far as homosexuality, there is little doubt as to what the scriptures say on that manner of lifestyle, and it is not a happy ending.
Regarding religion in politics, as a believer in Christ, my belief encompasses every aspect of my life, and I am profoundly concerned with the beliefs and moral practices of anyone who might be in a position of governance, as was Jesus, both implicitly and by inference.

"Whenever religion is tied to one partisan view, the role of religion as a nonpartisan healing force is damaged."

The notion that religion is "a nonparitsan healing force" is ludicrous. It is a divisive, often murderous so, obstacle to human progress both here and abroad and has been so throughout history.

The fact that you "urge" candidates to do this or that, or be this or that speaks to the irrational pressure you bring to the political environment. D

You have a right to do that. And the rest of us have a right to tell you and the candidates of your choice to take a hike.

Freedom for one means freedom for all. Jesus taught it and I believe it.
Still in His Service at 80 but not politcally active. Mary

In his book, Conservatives Without Conscience, John Dean quotes Barry Goldwater as saying: "....But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and they won't compromise. I know I've tried to deal with them." It seems to me that Senator Goldwater had it right. There is much in the past decade that supports his assertion. Although Jesus never offered any words to condemn homosexuality or abortion he had plenty to say about hypocrisy. In my view the last election was a referendum on arrogance and hypocrisy in government. It was also proof that James Madison had it right when he hitched our wagon to the future on the exponential growth of the people to put a check on leaders who lose their moorings and think and act as though they are above the Constituion.

In his book, Conservatives Without Conscience, John Dean quotes Barry Goldwater as saying: "....But these Christians believe they are acting in the name of God, so they can't and they won't compromise. I know I've tried to deal with them." It seems to me that Senator Goldwater had it right. There is much in the past decade that supports his assertion. Although Jesus never offered any words to condemn homosexuality or abortion he had plenty to say about hypocrisy. In my view the last election was a referendum on arrogance and hypocrisy in government. It was also proof that James Madison had it right when he hitched our wagon to the future on the exponential growth of the people to put a check on leaders who lose their moorings and think and act as though they are above the Constituion.

America,the land of the free. That line implies freedom to believe as we choose regarding where we came from before this life and where we will go afterward and what we do about either.
If we are to remain true to that declaration of freedom, we must each one act accordingly, or else we are but liars and hypocrits, claiming to be something we are not.
As human beings, 'acceptance' can never be tied to 'agreement', or there would be no peace in the world, even between couples. Only acceptance grants true freedom, which has only one meaning and cannot be equivocated.
Anything, such as religion that separates people, to divide them toward contrary purpose is but a manipulation of that very banner of freedom beneath which we Americans live and honor. It has no place in the government or governing of this free country and the use of it should be regarded with shame by all Americans.

I couldn't agree more. It's unfortunate that the "dirty politics" regarding religion is starting already, 20 months before the election!!

Whether Christian of the Catholic Faith, Mormon or Methodist, Jew or Muslim, the last I looked we all worshiped the same God, in our own special way.

Last Friday evening, with our confirmands from the First United Methodist Church in Wausau, WI, we attended a Shabbot at the local Mt Sinai Congregation. We discussed all three montheistic religions, their simularities and differences, but how we work together. My 8th graders came away with a new understanding of what real faith is all about.

We live in a very devisive time, and many ultra-conservatives are fueling the divide. A nation divided can not stand. It apples today as much as it did when spoken a hundred years ago.