A Questioning, Critical Perspective Makes Religion More Relevant

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Marilyn, The attitude of Jesus towards the state can be summed with, "render to Caesar the things that are Caesars and to God that which is God's." Everything else serves to disguise that.

We know what Caesar wanted, gold. God got the gold by the boat load from the western hemisphere, an event known as Conquistador. It wasn't a complete robbery. They infected native Americans with faith to go along with smallpox in exchange for their gold.

Gold is a rather stable substance. The gold taken by force from America has a "chain of title" that is presently where? Don't tell me I watched his most holiness transmute bread and wine into the body and blood of Jesus while it rested in gold chalices gotten through the suffering and murder of millions of people on international television Christmas eve? Does Jesus approve of that?

The gold could be retruned to Mexico and Peru, elsewhere even and part of that wrong righted. While we Americans are bringing justice to the world how about throwing that into the stew?

Jesus’ Attitude Toward the State
When Jesus Christ was on earth, he set higher standards for his followers, and he refused all involvement in political or military matters. After Jesus had miraculously fed several thousand people with a few loaves of bread and two small fish, Jewish men wanted to seize him and make him a political king. But Jesus avoided them by quickly withdrawing to the mountains. (John 6:5-15) Regarding this incident, The New International Commentary on the New Testament states: “There were fierce nationalistic longings among the Jews of that period, and doubtless many of those who saw the miracle felt that here was a divinely accredited leader, who was just the one to lead them against the Romans. So they set themselves to make him king.” It adds that Jesus “decisively rejected” this offer of political leadership. Christ gave no support to any Jewish insurrection against Roman domination.—Luke 21:20-24.

John 18:36 “Jesus answered:”My kingdom is no part of this world. If my kingdom were part of this world, my attendants would have fought.”

Sincerely,
Marilyn

Phil C, got faith?

Hi Jean -

Peter and James were members of a church in Jerusalem? No kidding? Who was the pastor?

Interesting web site Mr Mark.

I've notice that there are prophets of such poor quality they can't ever predict the past. You're saying they're so bad they can't fix all documents when they fix one up? Now the paragraph was added later, much later? When was the rest of it added? What did they have to begin with, faith?

The Christian church controlled all writing for a very long time and was in a psotion to destroy, originate, rewrite, add to and subtract from anything they saw fit. You're not suggesting they lie, cheat and steal are you? But they're so pious, have faith, believe God punishes liars, cheats and thieves. I think I see the logic.

They serve not God but rather Devil. http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul but don't expect much for it. The big bucks go to the liars, cheats and thieves who represent Devil and call him God, (I hope the ladies don't mind that the devil is a male).

Paul had the best opportunity to know the historical Jesus. He communicated with and visited the Jerusalem church were Peter and James the brother of Jesus were members. He collected money that was sent to the “poor church in Jerusalem”. Paul’s first churches were established for Jewish people of the Jewish faith who believed that Jesus was a Jewish mystic or prophet, and he never meant for them to be separated from the Jewish faith. What he did do was to include gentiles in his churches.

Rev. Gaddy – are you saying that the “brief statement” your professor made about contemporary references to Jesus convinced you that Jesus was a real person, thus worthy of your faith and devotion?

Do you recall exactly what he said? Did he provide references? Do you have them? If so, could you share them with us? Like several others in this discussion, I’ve been looking for hard evidence for Jesus and haven’t found it. I’m guessing that you took your professor at his word – young students often do.

As I’ve said elsewhere on the forum, scholars’ assertions that most reputable scholars think Jesus existed are no good unless they have the references to back it up.

I think Paul and John were equally important in turning Christianity away from being a Jewish sect. I don't think they were in the pay of the Romans.

I can't believe anyone's still troubled about the historicity of Jesus - I've seen his driver's license (Pennsylvania).

There is a split in the On Faith Christians. The educated (theologians, bishops) treat the Jesus story as a tribal myth to be interpreted allegorically. The fundamentalists (priests, laypeople) treat the Jesus story as literal truth.

I read that the Hebrew God is traditionally male because he was invented by nomadic herders whose flocks were lead by bulls or rams. She would've been female if she were invented by agriculturalists.

Fixed link from my post above: http://tinyurl.com/prdgl

"In a freshman-level university course on the life and ministry of Jesus, a professor cited references to Jesus that appeared in secular literature written by historians who were contemporaries of Jesus."

Sir, I wonder of you've ever bothered to independently verify the truth of what that professor told you. I doubt it.

Had you bothered, you would have discovered that there are absolutely NO contemporaneous sources that speak of Jesus. NONE. Uniformed apologists point to the writings of Josephus, who was a contemporary of those years. What they fail to point out is that the lone paragraph where Josephus retells the Gospel account of Jesus' supposed life has long been proven to be a 4th-century insertion, ie, a forgery (Source: http://tinyurl.com/prdgl).

To begin your column with a statement that is misleading at best and an example of willful ignorance at worse is hardly promising.

Candide and Hoyt,

We know this to be true - St Paul only proselytize among the Gentiles, but not the Jews.
And I leave the rest to you, o People of the following Books, be it the Torah, the Bible or the God Delusion, to discuss or speculate thus.

BA'AL
How close does it have to be to be contemproary? Is 2,000 years close enough?

Reverend Gaddy, you write “at the heart of religion resides not an affirmation of certain propositions, but realities and relationships that impinge on all of life.” I’m curious what you see as the realities that lie at the heart of religion. I see religion as more akin to the aforementioned collection of nursery rhymes – nonsensical stories and assertions that speak more to individuals’ hopes, wishes, and fears than to any kind of truth about the universe and our relationship to it and one another. I think that we would all be better off if we jettisoned the nursery rhymes and divisive insistence that we know the “one, true way” and focused our efforts on relating to our neighbors and improving peoples’ lives in the here and now.

"A professor cited references to Jesus that appeared in secular literature written by historians who were contemporaries of Jesus".

I would be really curious indeed to know what contemporary references to Jesus you are talking about. Most historians would argue that they don't exist.

(1) The words attributed to Josephus are pretty much universally thought to be a later interpolation.

(2) Tacitus referred to a Christus (essentially a title), and never referred to Jesus by his proper name. Actually, he referred specifically to followers of Christus, who obviously existed in his time.

Who else might you be talking about who is anywhere close to contemporary? If you can't do this, would you comment on how this reflects the critical perspective you just talked about?

NORRIE: there are some scholars who think Paul was an anti-Jewish Hellenist who stole the Jesus religion, but most think he was simply mistaken and misled by his mystical thinking about the Heavenly Man of Jewish mysticism taking up the body of Jesus. In any case, Paul never met Jesus and nothing he says about Jesus rings true.

Candide:
It's a lot worse than you're thinking. Those prophets are so bad they couldn't even prophecy the past. Prophecy was written at least 1000 years after the person on who's life Jesus was based actually lived.

No about the prophet, Pat Robertson. Is he speaking to God or Devil? To which one did Dubya speak to before invading Iraq? I rest my case.

Can anyone tell me if this statement is true:?

"St. Paul was a Roman double-agent who hijacted the Jesus Religion (the religion of Jesus's friends and relations)and turned it into 'Christianity', a cadre of Roman fellow-travellers whose aim was to further the interests of the Roman State."

Thanks.

40 writers did not write about Christ. You are thinking of those propbets highjacked by Christian theologians. As for Jesus, he was written about by only Josephus in any meaningful way and what Josephus wrote was censored and changed once Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire. The real Jesus has been hidden from view. But read Robert Eisenman on James the Brother of Jesus: when you have James, you have Jesus. When he have Paul, you have delusion and fraud.

Did Jesus Exist?

In his book "Jesus and Yahweh," Harold Bloom notes in his first paragraph that every supposed historical fact about Jesus is disputed, even his existence.

Bloom has read every word ever written about just about everything, has written many books about religion, and is widely agreed to be brilliant (though of course not infallible)

the point is

Canyon (and others): you say you are sure Jesus existed
Bloom says he is not sure.

Whom do you think I should believe,
you or my own eyes?

Canyon, can the web site be wrong and the Bible still be a hoax? Does the con man use a hoax? What does religion(s) give people in return for their money? Nothing more than any con man gives his victims, a lesson in being defrauded. That proves the Bible is a hoax. It's the instrument of the confidence man who claims to be God's attorney, a vicar.

You still need to answer, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul Is the Bible FINAL interpreted yet? Did Moses speak to God or Devil? Which one was it?

Can there be a God without a Devil? Of course there can but the con man needs Devil to reel his victims in with threats of hell.

There's a new page at the web site I just noticed, page 10. Atheists will own God before stupid people stop believing God is a supernatural being. That's how I read it anyhow.

Just curious. How did this:

"a professor cited references to Jesus that appeared in secular literature written by historians who were contemporaries of Jesus."

In any way change this:

"Much of my religious education in that context struck me as a type of fantasy more akin to nursery rhymes than to factual material endowed with a significance that impacted my religious beliefs. No questions were allowed, no doubts tolerated."

Also this insight:

"verified a hunch that I had held for a long time—religion is related to reality . . ."

Is a huge (useless) generalization. Everything is "related to reality."

Thank you.

>>"In a freshman-level university course on the life and ministry of Jesus, a professor cited references to Jesus that appeared in secular literature written by historians who were contemporaries of Jesus. It was an “aha” moment that caused me to begin looking at faith and reason, history and belief, in a new way."<<

That's funny, because one of my "aha" moments was when I read that there is only one reference in the contemporary secular record of Jesus (Josephus, I believe) and this reference, not being an original, but a distant scribal copy, is suspected to be a later forgery based on the form and context of the reference. That meant to me that there is a very good possibility that Jesus never existed, at least as an historical person.

So imagine if that is true - that Jesus never existed. What would that do to your faith?

Candide, when shall you finally come true to literature and say, "I’m through, I must give up optimism [in 'atheism'] after all... It is a mania for saying things are well when one is in hell.”

Please, step yourself out of El Dorado and realize that your religion is not the gold-plated paradise you think it is.

BGone, do you have more basis for your 'hoax' ascertation than a website which hasn't figured out its coding yet, let alone its theology?

For those who won't trust 40 writers who all wrote about Christ, 33 who predicted His coming and 7 who knew Him personally...there are a number of non-Biblical authors and historians to support the claim as well, just as Reverand Gaddy says.

To believe in Christ requires the smallest amount of faith of any religion, especially atheism.

Fundamentalism eats away at the brain, leaving the victim stupid and helpless, vulnerable to every scam and falsehood. Alas a large number of Americans fall into this category.

They need to be saved by massive intervention and RECONDITIONING.

Just one more question. You mentioned a "contemporary secular historian" writings about Jesus. Did he mention Jesus chasing the money changer out of the temple of God?

Of ccourse that's the sort of thing that gets a lot of attention and especially so under the circumstances. Who's temple was it?

Sorry, got another question. Why was Jesus charged by a HIGH PRIEST when Jews have RABBIS? My education is grossly lacking. How is that little descrepiency explained? Translation?

Is there a religious contract? To be legal all contractors must get something out as well as put something in to whatever it is the contract is about.

When one goes to church one is required to put money in, a tithe. What does one get in return?

In the confidence scam, a contract between a criminal and a victim, the victim puts something in, money being ideal from the confidence man's viewpoint. What does the victim get in return?

Is faith in God? Is faith in God's vicar? Is faith in a book? Does God have vicars, attorneys with the power to sign God's name? The Vatican says so.

You've probably heard, the Bible is a proved hoax. What does the confidence man used to gain the confidence of his victims? Is it so or is it a hoax?

If religion weren’t rooted in practicality, every society would not have developed it.

I’m worried that in the fast paced world we now live, that our religions have not kept up with explanations to deal with modern life. We are using Bronze Age myths to support a postindustrial society. All belief systems, especially the Abrahamic religions, intolerance must be changed to be tolerant. When you damn everyone who doesn’t believe in your worldview, you degrade those strangers. I think that even for the atheists, if you damn the believers to a life of ignorance, no dialogue for tolerance can be formed.

There can be no question: the psychological dangers through which earlier generations were guided by the symbols and spiritual exercises of their mythological and religious inheritance, we today (in so far as we are unbelievers, or, if believers, in so far as our inherited beliefs fail to represent the real problems of contemporary life) must face alone, or, at best, with only tentative, impromptu, and not often very effective guidance. This is our problem as modern, “enlightened” individuals, for whom all gods and devils have been rationalized out of existence.

Joseph Cambell

"None of us should attempt to use the government—or any other institution or instrument of force—to impose upon other people policies based on religious beliefs that conflict with their own beliefs."

Do you live in a cave? It's a bit late for this kind of milquetoast proclamation. It's already happened. Just look at the appaling state of the U.S. Military. A state of affairs in which the Air Force Academy is a particularly odious offender.