Torture is Wrong, Until It Saves a Life

The situation the Rabbi describes sets him up for a false choice. It assumes you could extract information from torture, and that this information is life-saving. That is a flimsy house of hypothetical cards. There may be such situations, but that does not justify an evil act.

The fallacy lies in assuming something is there AND it is useful, when in reality you do not know if it is there or not.

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "you need to read your bible"

Is the bible more important to you than God?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ThomasBaum

you need to read your bible

mark
always seek the thruth.

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "You are right that God’s plan is for everyone, however if you know the word of God and you reject it, you are in deep do-do."

Did you ever ponder that, maybe just maybe, God knows what He is doing and that HIS PLAN will come to Fruition?

Then you wrote, "Obviously it is not for those who reject his word."

Do you know that His Word is Love, Jesus, God-Incarnate, Love-Incarnate, is His Earthly Name.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ThomasBaum

You said: “If God's Plan is not for absolutely everyone that it is not much of a plan…”

You are right that God’s plan is for everyone, however if you know the word of God and you reject it, you are in deep do-do.

Hebrews 10:
26 “For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, “
27 “But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.”

To read the whole chapter: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/heb/10

Obviously it is not for those who reject his word.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "As we are all children of God, Jesus wanted to visit all his brothers and sisters to bring those who would believe under “..one shepherd” (john 10:16)."

Actually, God's Plan, which Christianity is just a part of, is for the salvation of ALL OF HUMANITY and the renewal of ALL CREATION, the new heavens and the new earth.

Christians are called to be Christ not to be Jesus but to walk with Jesus as in: "Come follow Me". Christians are called to die for those that one way or another "throw the gift away".

If God's Plan is not for absolutely everyone that it is not much of a plan and it would also mean that God would be a loser and God is not a loser, as I have said a tie would be a loss.

As I have said, God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Lots of people point out John 3:16, check out John 12:32.

Remember, we do not have to know all of the details and we do not have to know how it all works together but maybe we should, at the least, give God a little credit for coming up with a Plan that is truly all-emcompassing and merciful, to what some might call the extreme or even past the extreme, since there seem to be quite a few that as long as they get to the "good place" then it is good enough, good enough is not good enough actually it is beyond horrible.

Total Victory.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomasbaum

OK, I will expand…

The order to kill one man was to retrieve scriptural plates that were being unjustly withheld from the Lamanite tribe of Israel. This tribe was being directed by God through Jesus to leave Israel around 600BC as it was about to be destroyed by the Persians. Without those codices, they would have been without the words of God to guide them. Some of those words were the copied revelations of Isaiah.
This man was a sinner that was also trying to kill the Lamanites.

When Jesus said “…not of this fold…” (john 10:16), he was referring to all the tribes of the world, including the Lamanites who were in Mesoamerica at the time.
His arrival is recorded in the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ, in Third Nephi chapter 10.

You can read about it at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/3_ne/10

As we are all children of God, Jesus wanted to visit all his brothers and sisters to bring those who would believe under “..one shepherd” (john 10:16).

After all, our Heavenly Father (God) is not the kind of father that child services were invented for.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "If I were to address your statements implications, you are saying that you DO know God?

That would be arrogant to say the least."

I have said many times that I have met God and that God the Father came into my heart and didn't say a word, didn't have to and that God the Father is a Being of Love and since God is a Trinity and is One then God is Love.

You can call me arrogant if you wish but if I said anything different then I would be lying and denying, would I not?

When Joseph spoke to his brothers about his dreams in the OT, was he being arrogant or was he just wondering what these dreams meant, if they indeed did mean something?

You also wrote, "What I know of God, I have learned from scriptures and for the things he has done for me, and the things he has done are many."

What I know of God is from meeting God the Father and meeting God the Holy Spirit and the Holy Spirit revealing to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

Also after I was told in a dream, that I knew was from God, that only I could say it, I dove into bible studies of all kinds and found that the Holy Spirit speaks to me thru other people in a lot of cases and sometimes it is unbeknownst to those that the Holy Spirit speaks thru.

God gives different people different "jobs", I didn't ask for the "job" that God gave to me but I have said, "YES", and it is up to God to see me thru.

You may be reading more into my meeting God than the fact that I met God and know that God is a Being of Pure Love. Knowing that God is a Being of Love rather than Love being an attribute of God has helped me to understand some of that which I now understand.

There is plenty that I do not understand and there is plenty of things in the bible that I do not understand, but what I need to understand to do the "job" that God has given to me, I have to trust that somehow God will grant me that understanding.

As it says, "God works in mysterious Ways", after meeting God, some of the things that had happened in my life, I came to look at, shall we say, differently.

How God works in your life is your's and God's business, not mine, how God works in my life is mine and God's business.

Remember when Jesus said, "Take My Yoke upon you", that means to work as a Team, does it not?

I wish you well and it is really nice that God used you as a vessel or conduit of healing in that child's life, we are called to be sheep to the Good Shepard but as individual sheep not as a bunch of clones or automatons or puppets on a string.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "“John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”"

In the "not of this fold", could the "fold be the Jews and the "not of this fold" be the Gentiles and since the Jews considered everyone that was not a Jew to be a Gentile than that emcompasses ALL OF HUMANITY, does it not?

You also wrote, "The book of Mormon parallels the bible and the 2 complement each other".

I really can't say anything about the book of Mormon because I do not know anything about it but didn't you say that in the book of Mormon that the Holy Spirit instructed some to kill? Or did I misread what you wrote?

Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into All Truth and to guide and comfort us, did He not?

Jesus also asked us to Love our enemies and to pray for our enemies and to forgive our enemies, did He not?

Jesus also said that all power and authority has been given unto Him, did He not?

"Vengence is Mine, says the Lord", notice it does not say revenge and what it means is that God is the ultimate Judge, we are not, we will all be judged. Remember, Divine Justice and Divine Mercy are two sides of the same coin.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomasbaum

You said:”You may know "scripture" but you sure do not know God…”.

If I were to address your statements implications, you are saying that you DO know God?

That would be arrogant to say the least.

What I know of God, I have learned from scriptures and for the things he has done for me, and the things he has done are many.

Just to innumerate one, I called upon God to heal a severely autistic 4 year old child by anointing and blessing the child (and his parents for that matter), and God responded by granting my request.

FYI: The child and his parents are Catholic.

The child is now normal and attending school with other normal children. This is far beyond the expectations of his doctors and his parents. The joy I got from this is beyond measure.

I may not know God, but he definitely knows me, and you as well.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

ThomasBaum

Ok. Let’s talk the truth when we talk about scriptures.

From Revelation 22:

“18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.“

It does not say there will “..be no more revelations..”. it speaks of no more additions to the book of revelations as written by St John the Devine.

The book of Mormon was written chronicling the travels and exploits of one of the lost tribes of Israel from around 600BC to 400AD.

what do you think Jesus meant when he said:

“John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”

The book of Mormon parallels the bible and the 2 complement each other

Mark
Always seek the truth.

PART 1

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "In the book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit ordered the killing of a wicked man."

If this is true about what the "book of Mormon" says, then it goes without saying that the "book of Mormon" is definitely not from God besides the fact that the bible says that there will be no more revelations but nevertheless not all that has been revealed has come to be, the Holy Spirit does not "order the killing", but is sent to guide and comfort us among other things.

Didn't Jesus tell us that He was sending us out as "sheep among the wolves", or words to that effect?

Jesus extended the invitation to "Come follow Me", He did not kill others, He died for others, can you see the difference?

You also wrote, "1 Nephi 4:13 “Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.”".

If you remember, someone, said about Jesus, "It is better for One to die then for all to die", even tho this someone may not have known it, God was speaking thru this person.

You also wrote, "All we are doing is making captured terrorists uncomfortable to try to stop them. We are definitely taking the “High Road” and refusing to “dwindle and perish in unbelief.”"

God gave us the gift of reason and the gift of free will, the ability of choosing between right and wrong, how can you possibly say using torture is taking the High Road"?

Using "uncomfortable" in place of reality, does not change reality, does it?

You also wrote, "Apparently, I do know my scriptures."

You may know "scripture" but you sure do not know God, granted, you may know God's Name but what you are saying does not even come close to what Jesus taught and what He lived and died for.

PART 2

You also wrote, "Then they finish by severing the neck bone. I’ve seen the videos and they made me cover my eyes and weep and pray for the slain.", why just for the slain, didn't Jesus asked us to pray for our enemies?

This is only one of the things that Jesus taught but do you remember what the Apostles said about quite a few of the things that Jesus taught, "These are hard sayings"?

Then you wrote, "In response all we do is water boarding which causes no harm and then only to protect the people of our country from attacks, real torture and beheadings."

For one thing "water boarding" is probably not the only thing that we do and another thing, you have no idea what this does to the water boarder or the water boardee because we are all unique individuals.

You then wrote, "We are a righteous and moral nation. That is for sure."

Are you sure God agrees with this statement of yours?

Remember the "righteous and moral" Pharisee in the temple and the "God have mercy on me" sinner, according to Jesus, God-Incarnate, one went away justified in his own eyes and the other went away justified in God's Eyes.

Jesus also said, "My Kingdom is not of this world, if It were then My disciplines would be...", remember?

"Two swords are sufficient" and guess what, neither one is made by human hands.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"Torture is Wrong, Until It Saves a Life".

Irony, duh. Ironic, get it?

Earth to gentiles: We Jews are an ironic people. (Would have had to be.)

Jeez

Just an observation: I think some bloggers on this thread need to read the last two lines of the rabbi's essay much, much more closely.

You are taking him to mean the opposite of what he says.

"The healthy man does not torture others -- generally it is the tortured who turn into torturers."

Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961) Swiss psychologist and psychiatrist

I apologize for having misspelled your name.

The Israeli Supreme Court has held torture to be illegal in Israel. Perhaps Rabbi Hirshfield should study its opinions and, I hope, change his mind.

"But, The greatest example of slaying to save the good is God, the father, sending his own beloved son knowing full well he would be tortured and killed. In that killing he would make it possible for all of us to be saved."

Poor example. Jesus went to the cross willingly, and those that performed the actual torture were clearly guilty of a crime, or else he would not have needed to say, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do." Jesus' sacrificial death is a true mystery in that we don't know exactly why it does what it does, or how. But in any case it wasn't an action taken against an unwilling sacrifice. You are conflating martyrdom with torture.

Quoting from adjunct literature that is ignored by a large majority of Christian communities isn't very useful - unless perhaps you were talking to a Mormon.

"Torture is Wrong, Until It Saves a Life". Interesting title, Rabbi.

Perhaps something to consider as an alternative would be:
"Torture is Wrong, Even If It Saves a Life"

It would at least be honest. Not that I disagree with your rationale for the use of torture...but let's not lie to ourselves.

Torture is wrong...period. Articulating justifications for torture does not make it any less wrong. It is dangerous to confuse what is necessary with what is right.

Craig

The accomplishment of ANY desired end - no matter how laudable - is NEVER justified when the means employed to accomplish that end are questionable at best. I am a christian and I am sickened to learn, according to a recent Pew Research Poll, that there are many American christians who apparently deem the use of torture appropriate in some instances. It is the torturer who loses his/her own soul and it is an indictment of any society that supports its use as an instrument of public policy. This president has got it exactly right: the use of torture has a corrosive effect on the soul of a nation. Democracy is frequently a messy and inconvenient enterprise. But Lincoln was exactly right, for all time and forever, when he said: " Let us strive to learn that it is right that makes for might." God help us all, if we succumb to the temptation to take some convenient "short cuts" in the search for the "evil doers" and attempts to bring them before the bar of justice. For in the doing, we will have become just like them! The moral high ground is the only viable position for us to take as a nation, seeing as how we have been crowing about our own exceptionalism for a very long time.

ThomasBaum

You said:” You seem to know nothing about ‘scriptures’,”

In the book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ, the Holy Spirit ordered the killing of a wicked man.

1 Nephi 4:11 “And the Spirit said unto me again: Behold the Lord hath delivered him into thy hands. Yea, and I also knew that he had sought to take away mine own life; yea, and he would not hearken unto the commandments of the Lord…”
1 Nephi 4:13 “Behold the Lord slayeth the wicked to bring forth his righteous purposes. It is better that one man should perish than that a nation should dwindle and perish in unbelief.”

All we are doing is making captured terrorists uncomfortable to try to stop them. We are definitely taking the “High Road” and refusing to “dwindle and perish in unbelief.”

But, The greatest example of slaying to save the good is God, the father, sending his own beloved son knowing full well he would be tortured and killed. In that killing he would make it possible for all of us to be saved.

Luke 9: 22 “Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.”

Apparently, I do know my scriptures.

Consider this: the terrorists will capture the innocent and torture them. When they are no longer amused with them they slit their throats deeply (to the bone) and wait for the person to stop trying to scream. Then they finish by severing the neck bone. I’ve seen the videos and they made me cover my eyes and weep and pray for the slain.

In response all we do is water boarding which causes no harm and then only to protect the people of our country from attacks, real torture and beheadings.

We are a righteous and moral nation. That is for sure.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

I don't think people really think this through want if your pastor vists another country and is captured and tortured. It would be wrong, of couse.

What concerned me the most is not what we did it seem that we JUST crossed the line and the "cover-up" made it look like a much bigger problem than it actually was.

But my real concern it that the American public seems to believing that torture is ok.

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "Also, if you read your scriptures, you will find that God justifies even killing bad people if it means some of his good people will be saved."

You seem to know nothing about "scriptures", nothing about God maybe except for His Name and nothing about what "will be saved" means concerning God's Plan.

Have you ever heard the saying, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"?

Mankind has shown thru the ages at being very proficient at rationalizing doing things to others, supposedly, for the "common good", "the end justifies the means", "better for one to die rather than the whole people", ..., does any ring a bell?

You also wrote, "So, I am all for making a terrorist “uncomfortable”".

Does this "uncomfortable" bring comfort to you? I believe it would tend to make Jesus, God-Incarnate, rather ill, especially when anyone would try to use God as a "justification" for their actions.

Torture is torture, no matter how someone tries to gussy up, or down, the language.

Using torture justs makes someone a little less humane step by downward spiraling step, this could apply to a country or any other entity also.

As I have said, "I thank God that God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation and that God's Plan is unfolding before our very eyes and that God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

If I found someone plotting to blow up the World Trade Center and the only way I could get information out of a guilty person that might save thousands of lives, I would have no problem with torture.

The fact that we're even discussing the utility of torture indicates a profound loss of moral clarity.

While we're at it, why don't we revisit the benefits of slavery and giving women the vote?

ThomasBaum
Yes!
God does have a plan.
Also, if you read your scriptures, you will find that God justifies even killing bad people if it means some of his good people will be saved.
So, I am all for making a terrorist “uncomfortable” if it will make him give up what he knows. God would understand.
But, you are right, causing physical harm (torture) would give us a bad name. Making a terrorist uncomfortable (water boarding) will definitely not. In fact it will cause other nations to respect us for our restraint in protecting our country.

Gjkbear
The preventing of an attack on the LA Library Tower has not been disproved.
If BO will release the rest of the files, the world will see the truth.
Until then it is not disproven.

Mark
Always seed the truth.

The CIA didn't actually save the library tower in LA with waterboarding. That little ditty has been proven to be false.

This torture thing sounds OK until you think about it being your son or someone in your family being tortured. What if this person is innocent - really does not know anything. Do you justify it then? Or do you just say "can't make an omelet without breaking open some eggs."

Perhaps everyone should go back and just listen to the song "One Tin Soldier" - Peace on Earth was all it said.

Baloney.

PAGANPLACE

I wrote, "Saying that torture is wrong under all circumstances and actually living by that in this world is equivalent to saying you are a Christian and actually being a Christian."

You replied, "Analagous, perhaps, Thomas, but I assure you, not 'equivalent.' I think you'll find plenty of non-Christians here denouncing torture in ...actually less-qualified terms than many Christians."

Maybe you should reread what I wrote, insofar as there are many theoretical "Christians" just as there are many theoretical "people against torture" except for...

As far as "you'll find plenty of non-Christians here denouncing torture", I have said before, God looks at the person, not the label.

As I have also said before, there are many people that consider themself "non-christian" that are more "Christian" in the true sense than some that call themself "Christian".

There is more to being a "Christian" than knowing God-Incarnate's name.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

VOLKMARE

You wrote, "You anti-torture freaks would defend your family to the death, but not your country? That’s insane! And terrorists know it and love that attitude."

If we use torture, then we have no right whatsoever in complaining that "the other guy" is using torure.

Stooping to the "gutter of life" for methods that are acceptable to use just puts more and more of the world into the "gutter".

Has anyone ever heard the term "escalating"?

Thank God that God has a Plan and that God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Welcome to torture, Volkmare!!! LOL

Gabby1.
I love Montana.
But I didnt like shoveling 3' of snow off my deck this evening.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

By the way, I have read about the Patriot Guard Riders right here in Montana, where they blocked demonstrators from interfering with the burial of Senator Max Baucus's nephew who was killed in combat.

My hat is off to you for that!

Mark,

I respect your views and I hope you respect mine.

Waterboarding may not physically hurt anyone, but the resulting mental terror does.

I know what mental terror is, and I wish it on no one.

So again, that interrogation technique is nothing but terrorism in disguise.

Gaby1

Thank you for making my point. I knew I could get someone to use the words “self-defense”.

When you know a terrorist has information that if he gave it up would save lives, making him uncomfortable until he gives it up IS “self-defense” on a national level.

You anti-torture freaks would defend your family to the death, but not your country? That’s insane! And terrorists know it and love that attitude.

Water-boarding does not “physically” hurt anyone.

I know this as a fact because I’ve been through it and so have my sons. Yes, my sons and I are veterans and patriot guard riders.

Tear gas is worse than water boarding. I know that from personal experience with both. I don’t hear anyone whining about tear gas.

Unlike tear gas, water boarding “Hurts” no one. Therefore, I am all for water boarding if it has the potential of saving lives and protecting my country. And it has done just that –saved lives- .

What if it was your loved one that was killed because we only followed an outdated army field manual?

Mark,
Always seek the truth.

Analagous, perhaps, Thomas, but I assure you, not 'equivalent.' I think you'll find plenty of non-Christians here denouncing torture in ...actually less-qualified terms than many Christians.

Saying that torture is wrong under all circumstances and actually living by that in this world is equivalent to saying you are a Christian and actually being a Christian.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Torture is nothing else than another form of terrorism.

KJohnson:

I liked your posts, you are right!

Volkmare:

I would also kill someone if they where trying to kill another person, members of my family, or myself. However, that is called (self) defense and has nothing to do with torture. Maybe you should watch less TV.

The Cognitive Dissonance of Americans who claim that Water Boarding isn't torture is shocking and awesome, but not surprising.

Google the name Dilawar. A 21 year old Taxi Driver, tortured and crucified by the U.S.A.!

How any good Christian and American can defend Torture and crucifixtion, beyond me.

"Well so is the CIA for saving the library tower in Los Angeles due to water-boarding. The only difference is, they didn’t “loose it”. They operated under strict controls and under the supervision of a doctor."

Volkmare,

Oh, yeah, this makes me feel waaay better about it.

We don't torture in the grip of passionate anger; we torture only when absolutely necessary, and then only with cool calculation and a doctor alongside to make sure the routine torture doesn't turn into really bad torture. All very antiseptic, controlled, and rational.

Like the Nazis.

God save us from the ultra-Christian sickos.

Torture is a crime and an atrocity. It shouldn't be allowed as a *policy* based on the idea 'What if it's justifiable?'

That's the worst kind of absolutism, and it can lead to the worst kinds of torture.

The world gets rough, sometimes, but policies of torture do not yield good intel. In extremis, it's possible to scare the truth out of someone... and as easy to scare a lie out of them.

If someone really thinks it's necessary to 'save lives,' then if they take it upon themselves to make that call, they should immediately thereafter submit themselves for trial and arrest.

Torture is a weapon of terror and oppression. Our only real weapon *against* these things is honor. Or else there's nothing to protect.

You see it every day in the left wing movie media.

The righteous cop “looses it” and beats the –bleep— out of someone in order to extract some information that he may or may not have so he can save a person in peril.
At the end of the movie he is a hero.

Well so is the CIA for saving the library tower in Los Angeles due to water-boarding. The only difference is, they didn’t “loose it”. They operated under strict controls and under the supervision of a doctor.

The president should have the right to order water-boarding in these situations.

I would do the same.
I would also kill someone if I thought they were about to kill another person or myself.

Mark
Always seek the truth.

"Imagine for a moment that you knew the life of someone you loved; your child for example, would be saved by information extracted by torture. Are you really certain that you might not suddenly find some justification which allowed it just this once'?"

This is the same old argument that is always trotted out when this issue is debated. And it's utterly absurd.

The "imagine for a moment" scenario always includes the word "knew" -- as in, "you KNEW the life of someone you loved...would be saved by information extracted by torture."

But such certainty is impossible; future outcomes are unknowable. There would never, EVER be a situation in which you KNEW that someone you loved would be saved by torturing someone else.

So the whole premise of this argument is childish and ill-informed.

Certainly a person does not know how he or she will act under hypothetical circumstances, so I'll allow Rabbi Hirschfield that tiny percentage of doubt. But a person absolutely can make it an article of his/her beliefs that torture is always wrong and should never be condoned.

Anything less than that opens doors that conceal very hungry tigers.

The problem with the people that are labeled "Pro-Torture" is that they not believe what is being done, waterboarding, is torture as if we don't call it torture then it isn't it's ridiculous.

Being against torture is an easy moral position made uneasy depending on your losses to an enemy.