Americans (Still) Rejecting Religious Status Quo

JEDROTHWELL1

You wrote, "By the way, I believe others have said this. It is not original with you."

I never said it was, what I said is that I am a messenger of God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

JedRothwell.

Hi. I feel your pain.

Enjoyed your brave attempts to speak truth and reason
to religious delusion.Really interesting to read.

I could only suggest Mr Baum give the bible a rest
and read any one of the following books...

"The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins.

"God; The Failed Hypothesis" by Victor Stenger.

"Varieties of Scientific Experience" by Carl Sagan.

And wasn't it Carl Sagan who said that
extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence?

Mr Baum might ponder that one.
He might also ponder seeing a therapist.

Thomas Paul Moses Baum

"Not only is this only your opinion but it is wrong."

It may be wrong but it is not my opinion. Again, I suggest you try to grasp that concept that some assertions are based on opinions, and some on evidence. Assertions in both categories may be wrong: the evidence may be faulty, or incomplete, or I may have misinterpreted it. However, it is still not an "opinion."

"You seem to think that you know a lot about me and as far as I know we have never met, how is that?"

I know nothing specifically about you. I know about people in general. For example, I know that people cannot fly or jump to the moon, or read minds. I know that they often have illusions and false memories which they confuse with experience. Many people sincerely believe they have met with God. But this is impossible, for the reasons I gave earlier.

"Actually, one does not need 'instruments' but an open heart."

If you cannot detect a phenomenon or an object with instruments (at least in principle) then you cannot sense it, and it does not exist in the physical world. Therefore it has no effect on the world, and you or I can meet it, know it, or describe it.

"Man will never come up with an 'instrument' to find God . . ."

Exactly. I rest my case.

"but God has already put within man the means to 'find' Him."

Well, not in my case, he hasn’t. He did not put that ability in Mother Theresa either. That would mean he does not exist for me or Mother Theresa, and he does exist for you, which is an odd kind of existence at best.

"Don't worry, when you eventually meet God, you will find out that God is not the vindictive, vile, putrid being that some that know His Name think that He Is."

God is whatever you imagine him to be, just as the character in a book is whatever the author says he is. As you know some people do claim that God is vindictive. I prefer your version!

"The statement: God Is Love, is quite literal . . ."

Love is an emotion. It exists only in the mind of the person who loves. If that is literally true then God is only an emotion.

". . . I have said, Love is not an attribute of God but is His Very Being."

Then his very being is mere emotion, or thought, entirely contained in your brain. Love, hate, jealousy, wonder and other emotions have no corporal existence outside of the brain.

By the way, I believe others have said this. It is not original with you.

JEDROTHWELL1

You wrote, "As I explained, I believe it is possible for me to know that, by objective means. You do not agree, but you should not claim that these means do not exist. Just say you don't trust my methods: don't deny that I have methods."

I am flat out telling you that you are wrong in saying that you "know" I have not met God.

You also wrote, "Your claim about what will happen "some day" doesn't count. Anyone can predict anything."

Not only is this only your opinion but it is wrong.

Then you wrote, "Yes, it is, and as Franklin put it, experience is dear teacher but a fool will learn at no other. However, in this case, you have not experienced anything. An illusion, dream or false memory is not an experience. You have confused your imagination with reality."

Franklin is not God, you are not God and I am not God.

You say experience is a teacher and then you say I have not had an experience, actually it was more than one experience.

You seem to think that you know a lot about me and as far as I know we have never met, how is that?

Then you wrote, "There may be, but the physical world and all events that occur in it are governed by the laws of physics, and they preclude the existence of God -- or they render God powerless and unable to change any event, answer any prayer, or meet with you. If any of these things could happen we could detect the event by objective means (with instruments). People have tried hard to do this for centuries, but they have always failed."

God is not the "puny" being that you and ,sad to say, some of those that know His Name think that He Is.

Actually, one does not need "instruments" but an open heart. Man will never come up with an "instrument" to find God but God has already put within man the means to "find" Him.

Don't worry, when you eventually meet God, you will find out that God is not the vindictive, vile, putrid being that some that know His Name think that He Is.

The statement: God Is Love, is quite literal, as I have said, Love is not an attribute of God but is His Very Being.

God's Plan which is unfolding before our very eyes is for ALL to be with Him in His Kingdom.

As I have said: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I wrote:

"People assume that other groups and societies are either exactly like their own, or a mirror image with everything reversed."

To give an amusing example, take an elderly old-fashioned country Japanese woman I met decades ago. She was a Buddhist and a vegetarian, a leftover from a time when people in Japan were embarrassed (or horrified) at the thought of eating meat. People used to cover up the family shrine at dinner so their ancestors would not see what they were eating. Anyway, this woman was surprised to find that I eat vegetables. She said, "I thought you westerners ate only meat."

counterww wrote: "It is not always easy, and I am not perfect, but to my mind it is better than the atheistic mindset that has bitterness wrapped around it . "

To which gladerunner responded: Bitterness? Where are you getting your info about the mindset of atheists? I assure you it is mistaken at least among all the atheists that I know. Perhaps you are referring to the atheists that spend time on forums such as these. Some of them may appear bitter as they are typically involved in a debate."

Some may be, but not me. I am just taking a break from a tedious job I was supposed to finish last Friday. This is like spending time at the watercooler discussing sports or a movie. I suspect that people such as counterww "read in" anger. They imagine they are seeing bitterness or passion where none exists. People who are strongly attached to a world view sometimes assume that those who disagree with them feel as strongly about the negative view. An ardent Democrat might assume that Republicans love McCain as much as he loves Obama. People assume that other groups and societies are either exactly like their own, or a mirror image with everything reversed. A person who loves God might imagine that atheists hate God, but actually most of them are indifferent, and have no objection to religion. In my case, I quibble with the logic of it. But I see no harm in most forms of religion. People have all kinds of incorrect and irrational beliefs and for the most part they cause no harm.

Paganplace wrote:

"For example, some religions claim that prayer tends to improve the prognosis of disease. This claim can be tested, and it has been tested carefully, by people who are biased in favor of religion."

Yes, people making rationalistic claims will tend to resort to competing authorities.”

As far as I know, there are no competing authorities. I do not know of any scientific studies showing that prayer or any other religious activities have any effect on health, or any other aspect of physical reality.

". . . 'Some religions claim they enhance justice, improve morality, or bring people wealth and happiness. These claims all pertain to the physical world,'

Pertain to, but are not, no."

No, these traits exist only in the real world. Justice is something that you actually accomplish, by punishing or rewarding people. A human judge does it (or tries to anyway) and according to some religions God does it as well, for example by sending storms to destroy cities in which homosexuals live. Wealth is measured in dollars. (I did not mean “spiritual wealth” I meant the kind of wealth AIG is frantically stealing from the taxpayers.) Either God punishes people and/or makes them wealthy, or He doesn’t. These religions claim that God has a physical effect on the real world; i.e. he sends money into people's bank accounts or smites them. There is no evidence that He does.

Happiness is somewhat unclear as I said, but some progress in measuring it has been made and it will likely boil down to an electrochemical condition of the brain.

"Science is not the enemy of religion."

I find it incompatible with religion. Perhaps this is a limitation of my imagination.

"Ghosts.
Great example. People run around trying to 'scientifically prove or disprove the existence of ghosts,' ...most often *as* whatever they imagined they are supposed to be, whether it's a wannabeliever or a wannadebunker that's doing it."

So far scientific means have failed to find evidence for ghosts. You can't prove a negative, but as far as anyone can tell they don't exist. People have imagined ghosts in all kinds of ways, as you say. People have looked carefully for ghosts according to many different definitions, and found nothing.

"Some things you can see, which don't repeat. Certainly not under controllable conditions. That's why they scare the yellow water out of both Christians and would be scientists."

If it don't repeat, conditions are not controlled, by definition. Believe me, that does not scare scientists. It annoys them. It is something they deal with every day. Experimentalist encounter irreproducible phenomena as often as computer programmers crash their computers while debugging code. It does not frighten them. It just makes them sigh or curse and take a coffee break.

God(s)ess(es) are nothing more than beliefs. They exist completely inside the believers head. Are they real? Yes, because beliefs are always real to the believer(s). Always.

To promote gods to anything more than the believers' belief, requires independently verifiable evidence. Lacking any empirical evidence, this is where all gods, every single one throughout the entire span of human history, cease to exist (at least so far).

Until then, gods are just beliefs and nothing more.

counterww: "It is not always easy, and I am not perfect, but to my mind it is better than the atheistic mindset that has bitterness wrapped around it . "

Bitterness? Where are you getting your info about the mindset of atheists? I assure you it is mistaken at least among all the atheists that I know. Perhaps you are referring to the atheists that spend time on forums such as these. Some of them may appear bitter as they are typically involved in a debate.
In this case it's not necessarily bitternes, it might just be passionate disagreement with a topic/post/poster.
I myself and those I know to be atheists are pretty happy people. Not burdened with fear of eternal reward/punishment, happy to make each day worth something since there's no big eternal payoff. When something bad does happen they don't go nuts begging the cosmos 'Why me, why me?"

Having been brought up a christian then only turning away when I was approaching my 30's I think I can say with some authority that I am much, much happier about life, the universe and everything now that I don't worry about every single private thought being judged mortally offensive by some jealous, vengeful, child-like god burning my soul in a pit of fire for all eternity.

Basically? Both sides. Trying to sell...

A false sense of certainty. Not to mention 'war' and *uncertainty.'

The 'sides' are illusion.

Sure, it's foolish to deny what science can know.

It's also foolish to think that's all we are.

Sometimes, 'disbelief in magic' is bad science.

Doesn't mean random credulity *is* science.

Goes both ways.

You'd almost think we were some kind of creatures who can walk, reason, and dream, all at the same time, or something.

Whoa.

(continued)

" For example, some religions claim that prayer tends to improve the prognosis of disease. This claim can be tested, and it has been tested carefully, by people who are biased in favor of religion."

Yes, people making rationalistic claims will tend to resort to competing authorities.

Let's put it this way.

If you lived with these debates and saw all of life didn't work that way, would you be in a hurry to go try and convince people, or would you maybe have something else to try and do?

It's confusing these things that distresses people.

" It is not true. Some religions claim they enhance justice, improve morality, or bring people wealth and happiness. These claims all pertain to the physical world,"

Pertain to, but are not, no.

Substituting another 'authority' to 'believe' in won't fix that, though. Same old story.

I find book-religion indirect and confused about all these issues, and book non-religion ...limited outside its own purview.

Many wonders were once considered, and were, in fact, magic, at one point in time, until we learned a few things.

Like reading these words now.

Science is not the enemy of religion. Unless you both choose this.

Lookit 'Intelligent design.' Authoritarian religion trying to pass itself off as science.

Don't try to take logical fallacies like proving negatives, and pass it off as 'religion.'

I'm pretty tired of standing between. Cause you made up your own 'lines.' :)

Hi, Jed. Hoping to not split the conversation too much, but I'll start here:

""(me) “Science is a method and a *tool,* a way for we subjective creatures to know things about the physical world that can be known in that way, no more, no less.”""

"Exactly right. And insofar as religion makes any claim about the physical world -- any claim at all -- it can be tested by scientific means."

Sure. I, for one, am counting on you for it. Though there's a difference between 'testing' and running around attempting to 'debunk' ...that which you cannot.

Religion should not, and should have no need, to contradict science. Science occasionally tries to disprove stuff, and ends up looking silly.

Ghosts.

Great example. People run around trying to 'scientifically prove or disprove the existence of ghosts,' ...most often *as* whatever they imagined they are supposed to be, whether it's a wannabeliever or a wannadebunker that's doing it.

Both miss the *point.*

Some things you can see, which don't repeat. Certainly not under controllable conditions. That's why they scare the yellow water out of both Christians and would be scientists.

Frankly, you both .... your pants the same color. (Not that I've measured.)

People's worlds crack, whether they decide they're mentally-ill or religious or have met the Arcturian Advance Contact Team.

Just a ghost, man. We live with some uncertainty, with... stuff we experience rarely, on its own terms. Talk to it.

People see one extraordinary thing and leap to all kinds of fears and conclusions before they even *meet* it. Either forsake reason or start trying to use it as a pokey stick against some perceived chaos... Or both, in the case of 'Book religions.'

That's generally when I get called in like the A-team. :)

Thomas Paul Moses Baum wrote:

You replied, 'I am sure you are sincerely believe that, but I happen to know you are wrong.'

There is no way that you can 'know' that I am wrong and one day you will know that I am not wrong."

As I explained, I believe it is possible for me to know that, by objective means. You do not agree, but you should not claim that these means do not exist. Just say you don't trust my methods: don't deny that I have methods.

Your claim about what will happen "some day" doesn't count. Anyone can predict anything. I can as easily predict that someday you will realize that you are mistaken, and you will stop believing in God.

"You also wrote, 'Experience and the human imagination cannot be trusted.'

I happen to believe that we learn from our experiences, as a matter of fact, I would say that experience is quite a teacher."

Yes, it is, and as Franklin put it, experience is dear teacher but a fool will learn at no other. However, in this case, you have not experienced anything. An illusion, dream or false memory is not an experience. You have confused your imagination with reality.

"There is more than just the physical."

There may be, but the physical world and all events that occur in it are governed by the laws of physics, and they preclude the existence of God -- or they render God powerless and unable to change any event, answer any prayer, or meet with you. If any of these things could happen we could detect the event by objective means (with instruments). People have tried hard to do this for centuries, but they have always failed.

"Then you wrote, 'Such tests reveal that all of assertions about miracles, prayer and the tangible existence of God are mistaken. They are wishful thinking and illusion.'

This is merely your opinion."

No, it is an objectively confirmed fact. You should try to learn the difference between opinions and fact. Facts are based upon observations and experiments that any person skilled in the art can repeat. Your beliefs are based upon opinions, impressions, false memories and illusions. No one other than you could detect any sign of the experience you claim to have undergone. If this were an actual experience, than someone could accompany you and meet God at the same time you do, or take a photograph of Him, or measure His presence by some other means. Anything real that you can detect with your eyes, ears or other senses can also be detected with instruments, because eyes and ears are, themselves, instruments.

If you "met" God but he did not physically appear before you in such a way that a person standing next to you would also see him and a camera could record him, then you imagined the event. It did not really happen. Your own mind was "talking" to you, and playing tricks on you, and you mistook it for an outside party. This sort of thing often happens.

Paganplace wrote:

“Science is a method and a *tool,* a way for we subjective creatures to know things about the physical world that can be known in that way, no more, no less.”

Exactly right. And insofar as religion makes any claim about the physical world -- any claim at all -- it can be tested by scientific means. For example, some religions claim that prayer tends to improve the prognosis of disease. This claim can be tested, and it has been tested carefully, by people who are biased in favor of religion. It is not true. Some religions claim they enhance justice, improve morality, or bring people wealth and happiness. These claims all pertain to the physical world, and they can also be tested, albeit not as easily as the cure for disease claim. People have looked very carefully for evidence that religion makes individuals or societies more moral, or that it makes people wealthy, but they have found none. Things like happiness are harder to measure with present-day science (and might always remain difficult), so the evidence is unclear, but doubtful.

Claims about what religion might accomplish in the afterlife cannot be tested by science because at present there is not evidence that the afterlife exists, and no way to detect what happens to people in it. I doubt the afterlife exists but at present that issue is unanswerable by scientific means.

Claims that religion causes miracles such as bringing rotting corpses back to life or causing virgin female humans to have male babies are utterly impossible. This is easy to prove by scientific means.

Conventional religion may be true in some limited sense, but in nearly every sense that it is claimed to be true, and that relate to ordinary life and experience, it is demonstrably false.

"People often believe they have experienced things they have not. That includes perfect sane people. Illusions, false impressions and false memories are as common as sneezes.
Experience and the human imagination cannot be trusted. The only way to determine what is physically true is to apply objective tests with instruments -- tests that can be repeated by anyone."

Well, one obvious and generally-observable, if oft-ignored fact about *humans,* both by authoritarian religion and the 'God-like' presumption of an 'objective and over-riding point of view' implicit in much strident atheism, is that the human *experience* is one of being very subjective creatures.

Both certain atheism and certain authoritarian religion both have a tendency to overstep, in terms of trying to reduce human experience to either a divinely-ordained 'real' order or a scientifically-measurable *limitation.*

Science is a method and a *tool,* a way for we subjective creatures to know things about the physical world that can be known in that way, no more, no less.

In my life and experience and practice, I've met many people who have 'met God,' 'met Gods,' 'met Emptiness,' 'met hard reality that there's nothing more by the standpoint of some omniscient observer that does not exist.'

I've certainly met more than would normally be counted my share of Deities, myself.

There's a real tendency for people to have these experiences, particularly when induced in certain contexts, to 'see' what we bring to them, ...and to presume the power of these experiences makes whatever interpretation of them may move us... 'Objectively Real.'

It's where these waters get muddied that issues of faith and experience can become about religion and belief and science and pseudo science.

I still see atheists, though they give lip service to including all Gods under their disbelief, actually speak otherwise: with presumptions that all notions of 'Gods' are the same, and perhaps that fewer is better or some such.

All in fear of 'the unknown' Of being 'wrong.' 'Science does not remove the terror of the Gods' and all.

I don't have 'terror of the Gods,' Nor of 'science.'

There are a couple of kinds of detectives.. Those who love a mystery, and those that hate one.

One thing I've learned is, there's no need for me to fear the unknown, fear believing the wrong picture of Gods or souls or whatnot.

Eventually, one may learn to welcome the idea of surprises. I, for one, have enough of what I call faith that there's no terror there.

No need to dumb down any science, nor hide from beliefs. What we as a society believe about belief, that's the way out of these *endless* circular debates between monotheists and atheists and different brands of religion.

IVRI5768

As I have said: God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

JEDROTHWELL1

You wrote, "such as people who apparently think that God is a vending machine that will bring them wealth in return for prayer, and that poor people deserve to be poor."

As I have said many times before, there are some that know God's Name and that seems to be the extent of what they know about God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

JEDROTHWELL1

I wrote, ""I have met God, I happen to know that God is Real.""

You replied, "I am sure you are sincerely believe that, but I happen to know you are wrong."

There is no way that you can "know" that I am wrong and one day you will know that I am not wrong.

You also wrote, "Experience and the human imagination cannot be trusted."

I happen to believe that we learn from our experiences, as a matter of fact, I would say that experience is quite a teacher.

Then you wrote, "The only way to determine what is physically true is to apply objective tests with instruments -- tests that can be repeated by anyone."

There is more than just the physical.

Then you wrote, "Such tests reveal that all of assertions about miracles, prayer and the tangible existence of God are mistaken. They are wishful thinking and illusion."

This is merely your opinion.

You also wrote, "Spiritual beliefs and things like love or aesthetics are another matter, and cannot be tested with instruments."

As you wrote and as I said above there is more than just the physical and considering that God is a Being of Pure Love, you have stated above that the Reality of God can not be tested with instruments.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

God(s)ess(es) exist whenever and wherever people believe they do. That's how they operate. Belief is all that is required as proof of their existence.

CCNL

You wrote, "Billions of humans have walked the face of Earth but only one has ever seen god. Strange, very strange is this Thomas "the Moses of the NT" Baum!!!!"

I did not say that I saw God, I said that I met God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Rabbi,

You ought to spend some time reading the postings on this blog. They present one of the best arguments I have yet to see on behalf of the Faithless. It is a negative argument, I admit. The Faithless and the Faithful come out nearly even when it comes to morality, with the Faithless very slightly ahead.

Bottom line: Whatever gets you through the night. Just don't bomb, verbally abuse, or otherwise molest the rest of us in the name of your Imaginary Friends.

To Paulc2;

You write;
" Atheists as a group are vocal far beyond their numbers. This is especially true in "On Faith". We believers are left to wonder why atheists care about Faith so much."

Atheists think faith is foolish,Paul. We see no reason to believe that gods are real.
Apollo wasn't real. Neither was Zeus. Aphrodite and all the thousands of other gods that people have believed in and fought wars over were all made up. We know and accept that now. I'm sure you are an atheist regarding these old gods. So am I.
But I include your god too in my atheism.

But to answer your question..."why atheists care so much about faith" is because it scares the beejeesus out of us.
Especially since 9/11.
It is possible that religion will kill us all one day.
While Faith may have some good people doing good things to please their god, it has others committing outrageous acts of violence to please their other god. And as there would seem to be no gods anyway - who needs this kind of sanctioned lunacy?

Regards CN

In his Dictionary published in 1911, the American writer Ambrose Bierce hit the nail on the head when it comes to faith:

"FAITH: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel."

Faith is therefore easily dispensed with. Nobody needs "Faith", and why would anyone want it?

I wrote:

"If you were to take an anonymous Internet poll of churchgoers and ask how many actually believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and God answers prayers, I expect you would find that a lot of them do not."

My point is that polls about religion always skew in favor or religion, but in recent years this bias has been reduced. The reason is simple: most people approve of religion. There is no penalty for saying you believe when you do not, whereas some people are punished when they admit they are atheists.

No sincerely religious person would have reason to pretend he is an atheist, whereas some atheists pretend they believe in order to "fit in."

People who sincerely believe in God are never ashamed to admit that. On the contrary, many of them delight in telling people, and even brag about it, whereas some atheists feel conflicted and ashamed.

On another subject, I commend Hirschfield for his honestly felt angst about the failings of religion, and his fear that believers may "degrade our own brand." But I think he should lighten up and not worry. Rational people do not hold one religion at fault for the failures of another. And as I said, most of the fluctuation in the polling data are caused by fads and fashion and the fact that atheists are not persecuted as much as they used to be. I doubt there has been any significant change in the numbers of believers.

I do have one suggestion for Hirschfield, regarding this concern:

"How do we assure that a celebration of personal freedom is not simply cover for a culture of narcissism and selfishness?"

I don't see much connection between the celebration of personal freedom and selfishness. I wouldn't worry about this. Hirschfield should worry instead about people who celebrate religion and use it as a cover for a culture of narcissism and selfishness, such as people who apparently think that God is a vending machine that will bring them wealth in return for prayer, and that poor people deserve to be poor.

Thomas Paul Moses Baum wrote:

"Whether people believe that God is Real or believe that God is not real has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not God is Real."

That is correct. And those people include you: even though you believe in God with all your heart, that has absolutely nothing to do with whether God is real.

Apparently you have forgotten to apply your own wise and carefully considered standard to yourself! I find that rather odd.

"I have met God, I happen to know that God is Real."

I am sure you are sincerely believe that, but I happen to know you are wrong.

People often believe they have experienced things they have not. That includes perfect sane people. Illusions, false impressions and false memories are as common as sneezes. Some are profound (such your belief that you met God) and others are trivial (such as this morning when I could have sworn I left my glasses in the bathroom when in fact they were in my pocket).

Experience and the human imagination cannot be trusted. The only way to determine what is physically true is to apply objective tests with instruments -- tests that can be repeated by anyone. Such tests reveal that all of assertions about miracles, prayer and the tangible existence of God are mistaken. They are wishful thinking and illusion.

Spiritual beliefs and things like love or aesthetics are another matter, and cannot be tested with instruments.

Billions of humans have walked the face of Earth but only one has ever seen god. Strange, very strange is this Thomas "the Moses of the NT" Baum!!!!

MM Mokey2! Yes, I've been here before, but because of taking care of the household chores, working the vegetable garden, raising kids, and fighting fires, my visits here are infrequent (and will be even more so once planting season starts!). I agree, what better way to celebrate the season of birth and renewal than with a birthday?

Sabbats coinciding with family dates seem to be a thing with us...my dad was a Midsummer baby, my husband and I were married on Beltane, and my grandfather crossed over on Litha almost nine years ago. And of course, our younger daughter's birthday being on Ostara! No excuse for forgetting any of those dates in our house.

It's not just the candy the kids look forward to...my older daughter's favorite parts are the egg hunt in the yard and seeing what kind of flower seed packets were left in her Ostara basket for her to plant in her own flower patch in the backyard. The feast is also fun too....

May Ostara be the start of a bountiful growing season for us all. May our fields be fruitful, our thoughts and ideas many and varied, and our lives full of blessings of all sorts!

JEDROTHWELL1

Whether people believe that God is Real or believe that God is not real has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not God is Real.

I have met God, I happen to know that God is Real.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

On my last post, I posted it to COUNTERWW by mistake, I meant to post it to COLINNICHOLAS, sorry about that.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

COUNTERWW

You wrote, "As far as we know there are no gods. No Apollo no Zeus, no Rama, no Allah and no christian SkyGod."

You should have written, "As far as I know...", because you cannot speak for others and definitely not for me considering that I have met God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

You wrote:

"Finally, are those of us who still claim attachment to a religious community or institution going to ask ourselves the tough questions raised by this survey about the credibility which religion has lost in recent decades?"

Religion has not lost credibility. It just happens to be unpopular at the moment. There are several reasons:

The right-wing religious factions overplayed their hand and triggered a backlash.

Throughout American history, many people have treated religion as a fad or fashion accessory, and they consider Sunday services a social event. There are periodic "great revivals" followed by decades or generations in which people pay less attention to religion. I recall reading a recent interview with a 20-something woman who said she was "all into Jesus" as a teenager but she is sick of religion now.

A lot of people singing hymns in church and praising the Lord don't really mean it, and never did. They may be more inclined to say what they really feel to an anonymous pollster than to family members. Religion tends to attract hypocrites, or to make people into hypocrites. If you were to take an anonymous Internet poll of churchgoers and ask how many actually believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and God answers prayers, I expect you would find that a lot of them do not. You would also find that a lot of them cheat on their spouses and don't think twice about it. Plenty of atheists cheat too, but they don't spend an hour a week hearing that you are not supposed to, so they are not such hypocrites. I have noticed that some outwardly religious people let down their guard when they find out you don't care what they believe. In casual conversations with strangers I have sometimes said: "I don't go to church -- I don't believe in that stuff." Men, in particular, sometimes respond, "Who does? But the wife makes me go and it's good for the kids."

The polling numbers may also reflect that fact that many atheists have "come out" in recent years. You might say this is a good time to be an atheist. Atheist are less despised than they used to be, so they are not as afraid to declare themselves. They are mad at the Bush administration for its faith-based initiatives, fed up with right-wingers and people who fly airplanes into buildings. Scientist, who tend to be atheists, are sick and tired of creationist nonsense. There have been best-selling books that confirm their beliefs (or lack thereof). Even the president put in a good word for them during the inauguration.

Religion will probably not decline in the U.S. as much as it did in Europe because of WWII. Depressions and wars usually reduce belief in religion, and we may be seeing some of that in the U.S.

Colin-

You've hit one the wonders of the definition of "truth". If all you can ascertain as "truth" is the factual proved empirical truth that science can put forth, I pity you.

There is truth that can't be proven. That MOST humans know to be true in their hearts and souls but YOU can't fathom, due to your cold heart.

Warm it up , dude! Pilate asked "what is truth" to Jesus' explanation of how he is a King, but not of this world.

Uncomfortable truth? You gotta be kidding...

I just follow two rules as much as possible- Love God with all my heart soul and mind, and love my neighbor as myself.

It is not always easy, and I am not perfect, but to my mind it is better than the atheistic mindset that has bitterness wrapped around it .

The more uncomfortable truth to me is see how much God loves his creation and how people like you and others can't or won't take the scales off their eyes to see that

MM Dragon! Have you been here before?

That's got to be cool.. having a birthday as just another excuse for lots of candy. :)

Happy Ostara (and birthday) to you and yours!

MM Mokey2! BTW, Ostara's also my younger daughter's birthday, so that gives me and my family even more reasons to enjoy it! It's one of my favorite Sabbats too....

The number of Athiests may well be increasing, even doubling, but 1.6M out of ~300M americans is a very small percentage. Athiests as a group are vocal far beyond their numbers. This is especially true in "On Faith". We believers are left to wonder why the athiests care about Faith so much...

CCNL makes me laugh.

If you buy chocolate bunnies or at Walmart, you are de facto honoring the Germanic fertility goddess Eostre. Surely someone as 'liberated' as you claim to be would be aware of this, no?

Counterww :

you say;

"Tell me , oh wise one, How are you going to stop us evil religionists from telling the truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ to our kids? I'd love to know your irrational answer."

I don't believe truth really interests you. You seem to prefer a comforting fantasy to an uncomfortable truth. If truth mattered to you - you'd dig a little deeper and check evidence to ascertain that what you think jibes (in some way) with reality.
But you've settled on an infantile explanation for all things...Godditit!

Religion long ago hijacked the word "truth" to encourage believers to believe nonsense is sense, and fantasy - fact.
But nonsense is still nonsense, and fantasy is still fantasy.
As far as we know there are no gods. No Apollo no Zeus, no Rama, no Allah and no christian SkyGod.

Primitive man in his fear and confusion invented gods because he knew no better.

Palin neocons, FOX NEWS, Limberger and their drooling, lobotomized lemmings the Dobsonites have ruined the "Christian" brand.

Mention that you are an American Christian and the first thing that comes to mind to many is an intolerant homophobe who cares more about money and unborn life than born life.

I watch my back and my wallet when someone tells me, unsolicited, how "Christian" they are.

As expected, I have read several opinions from the self appointed representatives of the faithful claiming that the study doesn't mean what it says - that the face of faith is "changing" and people are not giving up on it. I suppose that sounds comforting to a believer, but the study says, among other things, this: "The number of outright Atheists has nearly doubled since 2001, from 900 thousand to 1.6 million." How in dogs name can you claim that this is just a "change" in spirituality? To be blunt, Atheists in general are not interested being spiritual in the least. I have been an active Atheist for 18 years and I have never seen this many people show up at conventions, speeches and speak out as such. In fact, recently I attended a speech by best selling author and Atheist Richard Dawkins for which 4000 people showed up! I'm telling you, the study is what it is - not what you want it to be. But then, isn't that what faith is really about?

That is sure a relief!! We thought sure WalMart was going to start selling Wiccan spells and voodoo dolls next week in place of Easter bunnies and chocolate Easter eggs!!!

Dig, Chagas? Those threatening/promising the 'end of the world' have been doing so life upon life, change upon change, always fomenting war and fear and defending their interests.

Once they thought themselves necessary stability among a bunch of swrord-toting maniacs, but.... actually have just messed everyone up sexually and fomented war.

Ensuring a Dark age as much as they thought to preserve something.

(Sorry!)

You wanna think you can handle a gun or a law, though, wake up.

Nothing in the *world* says we need to obey the nonsense.

Or that it should cost us our souls to do so.

"Religion must die so that mankind can live. Bill Maher is right. Religions that hunger for jihad and Armageddeon will destroy the human race."

Or.... Those who want to make billions relating to bringing about the 'end of the world' could be seen for the Austin Powers villains they've always been.

Life goes on...
Little ditty, about Jack and Dian....

:)

""edbyronadams

""Paganplace wrote: I thought *your* faith was about the ultimate God becoming human.":

"I'm not a Christian. Guess again. My faith is about every human achieving their highest potential and changing their karma."

Cool. Did someone along the line give you the impression this process is *tidy?*

:)

We may be living in a time of religous ferment, but it is not one where personal freedom and individual dignity are celebrated more than ever. On all sides we are bombarded by the evangelical Christians, the fanatical Catholics, and the jihadist Moslem, all of whom want to take away personal freedom by outlawing a person's reproductive right to choose, by threatening excommunication for asserting their right to choose, by attempt after attempt to plaster their faith all over the public infrastructure, by loud and obnoxious public prayer, by their constant demands on government for treatment above and beyond that afforded them by the Constitution, by their sheer incapacity to deal with the modern world. All of them would like to take us back to some idealized religious nirvana that never existed.

Religion! Pah! Religion makes me sick. There isn't an organized religion out there that isn't a danger to our democracy and our freedom. They are all insults to human dignity.

Religion must die so that mankind can live. Bill Maher is right. Religions that hunger for jihad and Armageddeon will destroy the human race.

Paganplace wrote:

"I thought *your* faith was about the ultimate God becoming human."

I'm not a Christian. Guess again. My faith is about every human achieving their highest potential and changing their karma.

MMA Paganplace, Dragon!

Ostara's always been one of my favorite holidays. Not much can beat the chocolate. MMMMM... can't wait!

Oh, Goddess, DD, it can't fail to be, at this point, can it?

Do not miss this Spring. It's not to be missed. :)

MM Paganplace! I'm aware of the trollery, but I couldn't resist! And if I don't post anything on here between now and next week, Happy Ostara to you!

Though, again.

"And the list goes on and on for small groups of pagans who represent 0.1-0.9% of the American population."

You do realize that however 'small' you think it suits you to claim my people are... well,

You do realize we're still talking about *upwards of a million Americans,* here?

That's a *lot* of families.

Dude.

Btw, Dragon, this *is* a troll we're talking to, I just bounce off him rhetorically a lot. :)

And, MM! :)

CCNL, a lot of us Wiccans and Pagans grew up with Christianity, and we never fit in with it. Having seen how so many of its followers take that our-religion-is-right-and-everybody-else's-is-wrong mentality, the last thing we'd ever do is even THINK about proselytizing/evangelizing to anybody! At the very least, it's extremely rude, and at worst, it's the religious equivalent to practicing medicine on someone without their consent! We're not trying to take over at all-we just want the freedom to practice our religion and be open about it, the same as everybody else, without any backlash from anyone! Freedom of religion means ANY religion, remember?

"Well then which of the following pagan groups should we watch as they take over the belief system of America??"

I know it's kind of a foreign concept to you, 'Concerned Christian Now Liberated,' but it's actually quite possible to have a full religious (or even rationalistic) life that isn't the least bit concerned with 'taking over' *anything.*

You really that *vain* that you think I want to 'take over' whatever *your* headspace is? Gods. Reality check.

"Finally, we have confirmation that modern Paganism is continuing to grow. The (Pew) study found that 0.4 percent of Americans adhere to a “New Age” religion, broken down into “Pagan”, “Wiccan”, and “Other”.

These figures don’t include those who described themselves as “eclectic”, “spiritual but not religious”, “other liberal faith groups”, or members of CUUPs who identified themselves primarily as Unitarian Universalists. Working then with the idea then that (at least) 0.4 percent of Americans are modern Pagans (according to the study), that means there are at least 1.2 million Pagans of one variety or another in America.

Well then which of the following pagan groups should we watch as they take over the belief system of America??:

Women of Wisdom Foundation
-
British Columbia Witchcamp Community - the long-running B.C. Witchcamp and its sister gatherings, Queercamp and Sappho Camp, facilitated by Ruth Barrett.

Children of the Circle -

Aquarian Tabernacle Church.
.
Connect DC -

Coven of the Burning Waters -

Coven of the Whispering Oak -
.
Crossroads -

Ecclesia Ordinis Caelestis Templum Olympicus

Evergreen Tradition -

Global Goddess -

Guardians of the Ancient Nile Coven -
-

Healing Today -

Jack-O-Witch -

Live Oak Local Council -

Loxley Abbey Church- Raleigh, NC
-
Nemeton, Boston University Student Alliance
-.
Carolina Piedmont Church of Wicca -

- Pantheon Temple of Connecticut -

Sanctuary of the Crescent Moon

The Sisterhood of Avalon -

Spiral Grove -

Teen Witches of Albuquerque -

Temple of Mystical Faiths -

Temple of the Sacred Flame

-Triple Spiral Nest of the Church of All Worlds - .
Universal Life Church of Paganism, Pittsburgh -

Tylwyth Teg -

And the list goes on and on for small groups of pagans who represent 0.1-0.9% of the American population.

One day all will know that God Is.

One day all will be thankful that God Is a Being of Pure Love.

One day all will be thankful that God came up with His Plan.

God's Plan will come to Fruition, the Plan that He has had since before Creation and which is unfolding before our very eyes.

satan, besides being a liar and a thief, is a loser, a sore loser.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

" edbyronadams

"Why would you take up a faith and then decide either the original prophet or his subsequent interpreters were dunderheads? Wouldn't that be the end of faith?"

I thought *your* faith was about the ultimate God becoming human... Miss the dunderhead bit, and you just haven't taken the tour. :)

Why would you accept a faith and then come to think that the prophet or his subsequent interpreters were dunderheads? Wouldn't that be the end of faith?

Cafeteria catholicism(in the generic sense) is either full of pride or sloth.

Why would you take up a faith and then decide either the original prophet or his subsequent interpreters were dunderheads? Wouldn't that be the end of faith?

Cafeteria catholocism (in the generic sense) is a sign of excessive pride or sloth.

"DEEP DOWN you know there is a creator,but you deny that truth. "

Maybe, deep down, you know that any such being wouldn't be as blind and petty as some institutions demand, while in effect advocating for bad economic, military, social, and environmental policies.

Of course, in my religion, we have certain ceremonies relating to bringing the Moon to *us,* and that's without even having a hard time about Kepler. :)

colinnicholas-

Tell me , oh wise one, How are you going to stop us evil religionists from telling the truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ to our kids? I'd love to know your irrational answer....

You said that science got us to the moon. Well, God put the universe in motion, my friend, and science explains how this materiality works in it many complex ways. What people do with their choices on this earth(and loving others and God are the two most important commandments) can be blamed on their own self-delusion, lust, hatred, and lack of compassion for fellow human kind. Just because they use religion as their method does not mean that God does not exist.

Yes, Deep down I know the truth. Jesus is real. He died for you and me. And he lives , he lives indeed.

DEEP DOWN you know there is a creator,but you deny that truth.

A few days ago the Post made a big deal out of the new Trinity College survey. I wonder what effect the baby boom "echo" is having here? It should come as no surprise that many young people begin to question their parents' values. With at least 76% indentifying themselves as "Christians" it's hard to really conclude that faith in the US is somehow eroding significantly.

I think, actually, there's a sign of progress where a lot of people are rejecting the notion that 'Faith' is actually as billed by certain institutions: namely, as the same thing as 'Believing really hard in an authority.'

Equating a search for meaning in one’s life (Personal Spiritual actions) with Faith (a blind or "Gut" acceptance of someone else's dogma) are hardly the same and certainly reflect at best a rejection of the messianic traditions of the Abrahamic cults. One can assume as we move away from the recurring craziness of the millennium passing; these cults will subsume into the background of community social gatherings. The Christian Coalition founders will die and their followers will drift into new confidence schemes. Israel will lose some crucial battle and once again we will have a new diasporas of the survivors with an accompanying despair and decrease in the Jewish cult. Even the Muslim cultures will retreat as the basis for their wealth diminishes, their societies deal with modern realties, and cultural diversity fragments their religious comity.
The Armageddon aspects of Global Environmental stresses and the emerging population may provide a revival in religion as people desperately seek relief from increasingly difficult ability to survive!

I mean, seriously, CCNL, maybe you think 'repetition is a good teaching tool,' but if you pull something out your behind and repeat it to yourself, regardless of the fact you're clearly *wrong* in your thesis, (ie, the assertion Paganism's been diminishing cause of what you say, when in fact the survey you quote says otherwise.)

Well, I see nothing 'liberated' about your thought process at *all.*

"Hmmm, with the pagan population being only 0.1% of the total USA populace, we should really care???"

Actually, that's not the numbers to begin with. Under 'New Religious movements' reporting, .9 in 2004, and you left out the 1.4 as of 2008, (deceptive, much?) There's more of us than Muslims, same number as Jews, and you care about *them* an awful lot.

Are you really saying that a 'couple million people' are really such no-accounts to you? Fine. Stop harping on your juvenile misinterpretations and trollings.

Am I the only one who found it slightly humorous that the argument of "Don't trust statistics!" was defended with...a survey?

How can you have a religious organization without hierarchy? Once you have a hierarchy who gets to interpret the texts upon which your religion is based? There is a great inherent struggle between democratization of spirituality and keeping strains of doctrine true to the foundation of the organization. There is no fundamental problem with DIY sacred text interpretation except hubris, the idea that any person is superior to the long line of thinkers that have interpreted the texts before you come to them.

It also leads to a lazy spirituality in which interpretations that do not fit with desires are easily ignored.

Religions in the United States,
(self-identification, ARIS)

1990 2001 2004

Christianity 151,225,000 159,030,000 224,437,959 76.5% +5% (change)
Secular 13,116,000 27,539,000 38,865,604
13.2% +110%
Judaism 3,137,000 2,831,000 3,995,371
1.3% -10%
Islam 527,000 1,104,000 1,558,068
0.5% +109%
Buddhism 401,000 1,082,000 1,527,019
0.5% +170%
Agnostic 1,186,000 991,000 1,398,592
0.5% -16%
Atheist 902,000 1,272,986
0.4%
Hinduism 227,000 766,000 1,081,051
0.4% +237%
Unitarian 502,000 629,000 887,703
0.3% +25%
Wiccan/Pagan/Druid 307,000 433,267
0.1%

Hmmm, with the pagan population being only 0.1% of the total USA populace, we should really care???

As has been said lately;

Science flies people to the moon. Religion flies people into buildings.

9/11 made atheists of millions of us.

Actually, in the paying attention department:

" sux123
"I would assume that those that said they have "no religion" means that they do not have faith or believe in God, bu the survey is a bit vague."

Actually, that's a bad assumption, and the survey *isn't* so vague on this point. Under the category 'No Religion' are those who call themselves atheists and agnostics. It refers to not affiliating themselves with a partcular religion. (As for what they say: of course, there are a lot of non-believers and other-believers who have to use mainstream religions for cover, especially as religious demands have become more of a factor in government and business life: many are disaffected with religious type beliefs, many are simply disaffected with religions.)

" I believe the numbers of non-believers is far higher than reported because of teh stigma in this country of not professing a belief in a God or Gods. "

I assure you there's little to no social privilege with these types if it's multiple Gods you believe in. Frankly, most book-religions don't know whether to mock and ridicule us or panic and witch-hunt. Most seem to settle for trying to do both at the same time and look *really* silly.

Not that certain squeaky wheels in the atheist movement don't tend to annoy *us* as well, when you decide to lump *our* religions in with certain others, for things we don't actually do or believe.

To us, most of *these* kinds of 'atheists' are just 'disbelieving monotheists' to us, just as a lot of 'Satanist' types are just Christians who picked the other 'side'... both still defined by that belief system, even in rejecting it.

No, it's far from *all* the atheists and not-believer type people I know or have met or are out there, but those who come on the Internet mocking what they can't be bothered to understand or learn about, because they believe they alone have the Ultimate Truth... Well, those don't behave a whole lot differently from Fundies in places like this.

Mr Hirschfield;

Many are leaving religion because it makes no sense any more. It made sense to our forebears because they didn't know any better.
Nowadays superstition is chuckled at by most bright adults; people are less superstitious than in days of old.
That is the trend - from superstition to common-sense. Common sense tells us there are no gods; no Apollo, no Zeus, no Wotan. No Rama. No evil demons. No celestial superman looking over us.

Stop indoctrinating our children NOW! There is no Santa, and no gods.

Deep down you know it's the TRUTH. Embrace the truth. It really does set us free - free from ancient absurd dogma.

"CCNL

"Paganplace, It is great that you are learning. Reiteration is such a great teaching tool."

It's teaching everyone to ignore you.

" And based on the latest statistics, the message about the mumbo-jumbo of religions to include paganism is reaching the pews and forests."

I've got a better learning tool: it's called:

Paying attention.

If you try that, you'll see that Pagan religions are still increasing in reported numbers, ...but then you'd have to go and be on-topic. ...Or, if you're so 'liberated,' actually reexamine the same *opinions* you hold as radical Christian religionists.

I would assume that those that said they have "no religion" means that they do not have faith or believe in God, bu the survey is a bit vague. I believe the numbers of non-believers is far higher than reported because of teh stigma in this country of not professing a belief in a God or Gods. This is changig though, so I would expect the numbers to go steadily up - not only because current non-believers will counted, but also because science has been providing answers to riddles and religion has been trying to surpress them and people are wiseing up to that fact.

My Son wanted to be a cup scout - I had to hide my atheism so he can join. Persecution and intolerance keeps non-believers from saying so.

Of course spirituality still holds a role in America. Tons of people didn't vote for Barack Obama because they thought he was from some other religion that they found unfamilar and therefore scary. In fact, only the believers of Judeo-Christian dogma have any kind of shot at a political carreer in this country. You have a better shot if you're gay... and we know how much America loves its gay-bashin'.

Whew. Ok, point is, all should seek spirituality in a way that is individually satisfying, nobody should be pressured into mass spirituality for no other reason than conformity to the societal norms, and for God's sake, please don't judge other people for beliefs, as this makes you a horrible person. An atheist who accepts the beliefs of devout Christians is godlier than a Christian on the lookout for converts.

I think your first question is critically important. I don't think individual liberty or individualism and the common good need to be antithetical, but somehow since the age of Reagan they have become so. And somehow the rise of fundamentalist religion has actually diminished the pursuit of the common good in our society, by vilifying the other. In Idaho, where I live, the legislature just voted against allowing the local utility to provide relief to homeowners who cannot afford their heating bills. The majority, no doubt comprised of mormons and fundamentalists, stated that they did not want to risk the fact that funds could go to people who were unworthy because they had made bad financial choices. I have been pondering that rationale for days now. That, and the recent shootings by young disaffected men in the US and Germany, really makes me think we are in a horrible place where the sense of common humanity has been lost.

God denied yesterday that he is a member of the Republican Party and disavowed the multitude of "spokesmen" who have claimed that they are delivering messages directly from him.

As to his "autobiography" known as the Holy Bible, God compared the collection of stories to the discredited Howard Hughes biography. However, he did confirm that he has sent representatives to Earth on numerous occasions in hopes of guiding humans away from their self-destructive patterns.

Although many of the accounts of the activities of Jesus of Nazareth are fictitious, God said Jesus did indeed carry a message of a deeper reality free of illusion. "For that, they tortured and executed him," God said. "It was not terribly surprising, but it was disappointing."

Other messengers have included Gautama (Buddha) and Zoroaster, both of whom tried to teach humans the value of love and empathy. "Humans seem to require a lot of supernatural events and powers in order to believe in some higher reality," God said, "while dismissing the incredible reality right before their eyes as commonplace. Life, it seems, is wasted on the living."

So what Mr. Hirschfield is saying is that those who had chosen non belief during this study are merely being dishonest with themselves, because it's absurd to believe that someone would not hold any belief whatsoever in a god(s)? Using that logic, I guess I would have to assume, as a non believer, that all those who claim to be christian are also mistaken, since to me there is obviously no god. They're really non believers, but each and every one of them must have been confused and made their mark in error.

Right-Page-on-Right-Place,
and the exlibris.

God is, most likely, working as intended. Her marketing and PR departments, though, have been corrupted and need a major overhaul.

bellah. is bellah the group of beautiful people? elders? people with bells, with respect to suffix "-iah"?

so CCNL, are my messages high-sing or low-sing? so can you high-sing your religion? oh my God, teacher? thank You!

we need each and every person connected. Butterfly Effect and the Wind? that is another phrase, but i really talk about energy, light and love amongst people.

so genetics, that is the language as you watch the movies. so we need full threads, connected, covalent or either way.

one day, it stopped, at teenage years, it stopped, as far as i see. then i learned again to nourish and cheer up,i learned to keep up with daily life again, as it is in Polar Express Pine Tree Gift Bell of the Young MAn.

your flowers, teacher, you nourish your flowers, you check whether they are alive and colourful. then what about the words?

are the words "god, christ, ellah, prophet" alive and colourful in your garden, teacher? God from Wend? Christ from Cheer? Ellah from Forthy People? Prophet from Healer "rophe"? Chryst from Switzerland?

i didnt write any letter to any person in paper and envelope, since the last to Bibiana.

Tau Cross is the piece of the jigsaw puzzles i love the most, and a dress shaped as TAu Cross
on a woman cheers me up.

so are you losing your religion? you have already stopped feeding your worths and language, so to say your soul has stopped. when i was a kid, i was practising on words and worts, as i do today, to keep up with daily life and my personal presence.

Paganplace,

It is great that you are learning. Reiteration is such a great teaching tool. And based on the latest statistics, the message about the mumbo-jumbo of religions to include paganism is reaching the pews and forests.

Hey Pagan
I realize that a lot of religious folks are sincer people who serve humanity far better than I ever will. Sometimes I get over the top - recently read "The Agony and the Ectasy" and followed it up with reading about the behavior of oragnized religions during and after that period. Abuse of power by organized religion is one of my pet peeves, and I forget that there are a lot of sincere folks in religion that aren't in it for the money, power and sex(I'm looking at you Catholic Church!)

Oh, well, Marc, know this, being sincere clergy is pretty much a never-off-the-clock job.

What are they working *at,* is the question.

Think you're whistling past the graveyard sir. Leaving organized religion in droves is the same thing as leaving religion, if not as good as rejecting superstition totally. People are running from the controlling aspect of religion, which is mostly what organized religion is about - mind control - claiming to have power over the almighty without evidence. One imagines that to 'religious leaders' that must be troubling - might actually have to get a job instead of bilking people.

No, that is not what anyone is saying. :)

All eyes here have seen what you cut and paste enough times, CCNL. Trust me.

What we are really saying : (for those eyes that have not seen)

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was either the embellishment of the lives of three different men or a
mythical character as was mythical Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and many of their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

Current crisis:

Realization that the Jews are not god's chosen people.

www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus was an illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter/simple preacher man who suffered from hallucinations and who has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus). Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

Current crises:

Pedophiliac priests, atonement theology and original sin!!!!

3. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley, Roger Williams et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingie thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

Current crises:

Adulterous preachers, "propheteering/ profiteering" evangelicals and atonement theology.

I think the statistics, well, mean what they mean. Certainly they give the lie to certain other ways religion's been presented, during the Bush administration, at least, and has been used to substantiate claims for a conservative element to power over the rest. (Frankly, just before then, there was a lot of comment about the growth of the 'Spiritual Not Religious' category, ...then, mysteriously, the media shifted to stressing the interpretation 'Almost everyone here believes in 'God.'' )

"First, how do people, whatever faith they follow (including no faith at all) maintain their sense of obligation to the welfare of others when personal freedom defines their identity? Without that kind of commitment, forget religion, the whole world is in trouble. How do we assure that a celebration of personal freedom is not simply cover for a culture of narcissism and selfishness?"

This is actually not so hard as some religious organizations make it out to be. If you're responsible to yourself, be that in pleasing Gods or 'enlightened self-interest' or whatever, then you'd better be responsible to someone worth being responsible to. Much of the decline in certain religious denominations does seem to correlate with these institutions having in fact, aligned themselves with control for control's sake, exclusion of others, and mean-spirited blaming of minorities 'while Rome burns.'

Good morning, Rabbi.

(continued from next post)

"Second, how do those of us who still feel deeply rooted in a particular tradition take advantage of this moment not to make converts, or to beef up our numbers, but to serve all people (most of whom will never sit in our pews or pay our dues) who might benefit from some of the wisdom contained within the traditions we follow? How do we use this moment in American life to become increasingly sensitive to the difference between religion as we happen to understand it and faith/belief/spiritual connection which, if they are really real, must be bigger than our particular doctrine or tradition?"

Well, representing some traditions still experiencing a lot of *growth,* it could be that a certain amount follows from *not* seeking 'converts.' That very agenda has a way of polluting things: something we've learned well by negative example.

Even putting onesself in the *position* relative to other humans, that you have something 'better' that others must be 'converted' to ...is pretty much a framework for the dehumanization of others. Also, for self-delusions one could spend a lot of one's life-efforts to defend, when that effort might be better spent elsewhere.

It's most evident when such traditions try to negotiate getting over a *prejudice.* The scariest part about it for most of these would seem to be that it shakes their world, and maybe even their own belief, to even contemplate they might have been wrong about someone. Some will polarize and get more authoritarian and extremist, some will find that whatever they believe, such institutions have lost touch with it.

When the PRINTING PRESS came, people where awoke.Today with the COMPUTER, we know more and quickly. In the USA, most beleieve in GOD and always will but they will see through CONTROL of the membership of any given religion that does CONTROL. It is time for religions in the USA be honest with it's members and own up to any guilt.GOD's people must be given truth of GOD.