Not All Holocaust Denial Is Equal

For more than a decade, Jewish, Orthodox Christian, and Roma have been involved in a lawsuit against Vatican Bank, which thieved from Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma slaughtered by fifteen hundred Franciscan priests. You will find a significant amount of information at the link below.

The Vatican will not settle. Many people, including Orthodox Christians, Jews, Roma, are putting pressure on the Vatican to settle and account for its horrible crimes in this matter. The suit has been monitored all over the world. These Franciscan priests' crimes include cutting up with scissors living Jews, Orthodox Christians, and Roma.

http://www.vaticanbankclaims.com/news.html

Please contact the Vatican and ask them to act justly. More information on the Ustasha Franciscan crimes against humanity, including the names of every one of the fifteen hundred Franciscan murderers is available on the web.

I'm uncertain what the definition of "holocaust denier" encompasses. Certainly, anyone who denies that Nazi Germany had a systematic plan to exterminate Jews, Gypsies and other "undesirables" is firmly established. That leaves room for debate on the total numbers, but not the fact that the number is very large.

My only gripe with the way it is popularly presented is that it is laid out as a singular aberrant example of human behavior instead of the norm. Many tribes have been exterminated before and physical anthropology and observation of the great apes demonstrate that genocide is strictly in the norm of human behavior, a prospect that is more frightening than if it was anomalous.

Human beings are a tribal species and feeling of tribal loyalty are more instinctive than thoughts of principle. Xenophobia comes naturally and, when acted upon by a majority on a minority population, horrific to a modern sensibility. It is also reasonable to question how widespread that modern sensibility is among the different tribes of humans now inhabiting the planet.

It's too bad these On Faith blogs keep getting cluttered with so many vulgar and dirty comments.
Why can't you people go clutter other dirtier weblogs and allow people with real knowledge and better intentions to discuss with these acknowledged academics, however controversial?

The sad thing is that it takes a lot of discipline to carry on discussions with opposing or differing views without getting emotionally riled up.

Try channeling your emotional energy into a more powerful intellectual argument, instead of being destructive.

Michael Santomauro

And this is what you are throwing your life away on?

That is a real shame.

Pardon me if my criticisms have infringed on your freedom of speech.

In some respects, the Germans and Japanese made the world a global concentration camp during WW2.

"Mostly though, I would engage them because the only thing which is certain if we do not engage each other is that nothing will change."

Bingo.

If we really want to change the way these people think, then we need to take action. And I'm not talking about protesting in front of their houses calling them a bunch of crazies, I'm talking about sitting down and having an actual discussion with those who appear to be intelligent enough to do so.

When people start to forget Holocaust, beware a greater one is coming.

Farnaz, Farnaz, Farnaz,

If you have more accurate body counts of the atrocities committed by humankind against humankind, please present said data and proper references to support your case.

Talking about a "ban" is a straw man since it's legally impossible to ban it, at least in the US. The issue here is simply whether the Vatican approves of holocaust denial or not.

FOR ALL: IMPORTANT

RE: REPORTERNOTEBOOK'S POST:February 4, 2009 6:09 PM

Mr. Michael Sanomauro, the author of this post, is also an editor of the book.

Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides,
Thomas Dalton, Ph.D (Author), Michael Santomauro (Editor), David Barnett (Illustrator)
______________________________
To get a sense of who and what he is, note that this book is being favorably reviewed on White Supremacist and Nazi web sites:

One is the notorious Stormfront whose logo is "White Pride World Wide."

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/?s=c303efbdeb74d4a99a9619df0ce16779
__________________________

Another is CODOH: Holocaust Revisionism Forum

http://forum.codoh.com/faq.php

Dear Brad,

"VATICAN CITY Feb. 4, 2009 (Reuters) - The Vatican on Wednesday ordered a traditionalist bishop who denies the Holocaust to publicly recant his views if he wants to serve as a prelate in the Roman Catholic Church. The Vatican said Pope Benedict was not aware of Bishop Richard Williamson's denial of the Holocaust when the pontiff lifted excommunications on him and three other traditionalist bishops last month.

It also said the traditionalist movement the bishop belongs to must accept all teachings of the 1962-1965 Second Vatican Council, which urged respect for Judaism and other religions, as well as all the teachings of popes since 1958.

"Williamson, in order to be admitted to the episcopal functions of the Church, must in an absolutely unequivocal and public way distance himself from his positions regarding the Shoah," a statement said, using the Hebrew word for Holocaust.

His views on the Holocaust were "absolutely unacceptable and firmly rejected by the Holy Father," it said."

It appears that Pope Benedict was concerned for Williamson's soul, and does not accept his positions on the Holocaust. The Catholics have it that an excommunicated person is damned, so to them any excuse to lift such a terrible sanction is to be desired. He is clearly being told by the Vatican that he must disavow his Holocaust denials if he is to resume his place in the church.

It seems to me that there is a tendency to make the most sensational and hostile interpretations Benedict's of writings, speeches, and actions. I have read some of them, and they are generally carefully reasoned and nuanced when taken as whole. I personally am not a Catholic and disagree with them on many points, but the frenzied reactions to these kind of things are very often overblown.

--
Debating the Holocaust: A New Look At Both Sides by Thomas Dalton, PhD

Publisher's Note: This is a non-Revisionist title for Theses & Dissertations Press. It will be the first book on the Holocaust, in publishing history, that will not take a Traditionalist or a Revisionist point of view. When you purchase this book, one-third of the proceeds will go to Germar Rudolf and his family.

http://www.amazon.com/Debating-Holocaust-Look-Both-Sides/dp/1591480051/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1233219533&sr=1-1

Founded in 2000 the publishing company Theses & Dissertations Press is at the center of a worldwide network of scholars and activists who are working -- often at great personal sacrifice -- to separate historical fact from propaganda fiction. The founder of Theses & Dissertations Press is Germar Rudolf. Who is currently serving prison time for his published works and will be released on July 4, 2009.

As the new director of Germar Rudolf's American publishing division, I wish to express my outrage that the Holocaust, unlike any other historical event, is not subject to critical revisionist investigation. Furthermore I deplore the fact that many so-called democratic states have laws that criminalize public doubting of the Holocaust. It is my position that the veracity of Holocaust assertions should be determined in the marketplace of scholarly discourse and not in our legislatures bodies and courthouses.

Peace.

Michael Santomauro
Editorial Director
Call: 917-974-6367
ReporterNotebook@Gmail.com

Rabbi,

If you have a moment, could you take note of CCNL's post? This he has taken from the easiest (least accurate) to access genocide site on the web. He's posted it endlessly since the Williamson affair began.

He isn't, in fact, a Shoah denier. He's a defender of his suis generis brand of Catholicism, which requries several strange things, among them an "OT," that Jews take the Tanakh literally, that there was no rabbinic age, etc.

Threatened and guilt-ridden, he posts these lists transforming his already addled brains into rock. In which category of holocaust denier shall be place him?

Wow. This set of posts is sure bringing out the weirdos out there.

All of the horrific atrocities committed by humankind against humankind need to be constantly reviewed.

A good starting point is the body counts from these atrocities as found at http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm

-some excerpts that should be "burned in" your memories:

Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries
1 55 million Second World War 20C
2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C
3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C
4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C
5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C
6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C
7 20 million Annihilation of the American Indians 15C-19C
8 20 million Iosif Stalin 20C
9 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C
10 18 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C
11 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C
12 17 million British India (mostly famine) 19C
13 15 million First World War 20C
14 9 million Russian Civil War 20C
15 8 million Fall of Rome 3C-5C
16 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C
17 7 million Thirty Years War 17C
18 5 million Russia's Time of Troubles 16C-17C
19 4 million Napoleonic Wars 19C
20 3 million Chinese Civil War 20C
21 3 million French Wars of Religion

Reference, Rummel:

European War Dead (1939-45): 28,736,000
Sino-Japanese War Dead (1937-45): 7,140,000

TOTAL: 35,876,000

War-related Democides

Hitler: 20,946,000
Stalin: 13,053,000
Japanese: 5,964,000
Chinese Nationalist: 5,907,000
Allied Bombing: 796,000
Croatian: 655,000
Tito: 600,000
Romanian domestic democide: 484,000
Chinese Communist: 250,000
Hungarian democide in Yugoslavia: 78,000

[TOTAL: 48,733,000]

[FINAL TOTAL (1937-45): 84,609,000]

Brad,

Good points. It is easy to get self righteous and thus to miss a chance to reach some people who may actually be trying to think things out. On the other hand there are a lot of Holocaust deniers who are flat out crazy and engaging them feeds their pathology. Knowing which is which could require the Wisdom of Solomon.

More later...