Pope Says No to Inter-Religious Dialogue

CCNL

You wrote, "Thomas, "trinity-hallucinator" and mythcial Moses of the NT, Baum,", quite a title given I am just a messenger and, by the way, you left out my middle name.

Also, you mention five gospels, the different bibles that I have referred to only have four. Are those four part of your five and if they are, what is the fifth?

You also wrote, "As per the famous Catholic and contemporay theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, "Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."", if Father Schillibiickz had a clue what predestination means then he would not have written any such thing.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

ThishowIseeit

You wrote concerning the Pope, "He is not sure of himself, also."

The Pope just might be more sure of himself and his beliefs than some people think.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

JUSTTILLTHEN

You wrote concerning the Pope, " For him there is only one door to heaven and it goes through the Vatican..."

I can't speak for the Pope but I would think that he would say it is thru Jesus, not the Vatican.

I look past heaven to the Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, which will arrive on the seventh day.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

When Jesus made his most meaningful statements, he was speaking as a Jew to Jews. The previous pope put forth a Pious Opinion that Judaism was a salvatory religion, and that the covenant between God and the Jews was still in force, and that Jews were not to be targets for conversion.

This pope seems bent on reversing that direction. If popes are supposed to be "vicars of Christ", that is, stand-ins for Jesus to the current world, they ought to get their act together. It's hard to imagine Jesus vacillating and switching positions as rapidly as popes do.

Many of the 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have already "Crossanized" Judaism i.e. almost 10% of the Jewish global population have come to realize that the OT is mostly myth, myths that have had in many cases tragic consequences since the OT forms the bases of both the NT and koran.

To wit:

"New York Times
ARTS & IDEAS/CULTURAL DESK | March 9, 2002
New Torah For Modern Minds
By MICHAEL MASSING (NYT) http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.

Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document."

Apparently, Yahweh-Elohim talked directly to Abraham. Perhaps a delegation from among your fellow rabbis, and from among the bishops, the mullahs and ayatollahs, and other sundry divines who claim Abraham as godfather, could all just gather together somewhere, quieten down, and refuse to disband until God has addressed you all, corporately. Think of it not as a test of the Lord, but as seeking his face. All your Abrahamic sects have their traditions of when they believe this happened for real, long ago - to Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammed - but why don't you all just suspend those once-upon-a-times for a season and, together, seek your God earnestly for an audience NOW....not talking about him, or even talking to him, but simply inviting him to come, and waiting on him. Even if it takes a century. And in the meantime, suspend all debate until the subject of the debate speaks. If all of you Abrahamic cousins could arrange and sustain something like that, not more debate about irreconcilable fissures, then maybe I and other unbelievers would take you seriously when you all claim to speak for the One Maker. Surely he would not fail to respond, this "merciful" deity, who hears the fervent prayer of his people.

"If you want to waste time, energy and space about the Pope's language 'harming' something, press on, Rabbi. Muslims are killing people by the boatload. Harm? Secularists such as yourself are diverting resources into theraputic inquiries as to how we can purge ourselves of guilt before the Muslims slaughter us."- chatard

I would hardly call a rabbi a "secularist" and christians are hardly the ones to point fingers, considering their history.

Perhaps, Joshua will be paying a visit to some of your friends soon? Just wondering....

CCNL, Bagel,

Too late to take back Joshua. You've posted on his God aided adventures endlessly. If you go back on your testimony now, you'd appear psychotic (in contrast to how you generally seem).

More from Mumbai doctors on the work of your Joshua and God inspired murderers of Jews.

"The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: 'Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,' he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. 'During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis,' an IB source said."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

Funny thing is, most of them weren't Israeli. God and Joshua must have misled you folks.

The Jewish atrocities "committed" in Jericho etc., were as per many OT exegetes mythical since the walls never came tumbling down from the blasts of Joshua's band. Unfortunately and tragically, the story is still believed and the example followed by many Jews, Christians and Moslems.

And that is why an "official Crossanization" of the OT, NT and koran is so very important.

More from Mumbai doctors on the work of your Joshua and God inspired murderers of Jews.

"The other doctor, who had also conducted the post-mortem of the victims, said: 'Of all the bodies, the Israeli victims bore the maximum torture marks. It was clear that they were killed on the 26th itself. It was obvious that they were tied up and tortured before they were killed. It was so bad that I do not want to go over the details even in my head again,' he said.

Corroborating the doctors' claims about torture was the information that the Intelligence Bureau had about the terror plan. 'During his interrogation, Ajmal Kamal said they were specifically asked to target the foreigners, especially the Israelis,' an IB source said."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

Funny thing is, most of them weren't Israeli. God and Joshua must have misled you folks.

CCNL:

Here's some of the work of your buddies, yuh know, the ones whom God and Joshua set to work on Jews:

"As if any more disturbing details about the Mumbai massacre could emerge, it's now being reported that many of the victims were also tortured -- and no one more so than the Israelis killed in the Chabad house. DEBKAfile reports that Rivka Holtzberg, wife of the center's rabbi, Gavriel, was also six months pregnant, and that the toddler rescued from the house by his Indian nanny bore bruises indicating that the captors had beaten him."

http://worldnews.about.com/b/2008/12/02/signs-of-torture-on-mumbai-victims-especially-israelis.htm

chatard:

Sorry. I forgot to address this little snippet of yours:

"Secularists such as yourself are diverting resources into theraputic inquiries as to how we can purge ourselves of guilt before the Muslims slaughter us."

Our esteemed evangelical President has diverted far more resources into a clusterf88k of a war that has depleted far more than the treasury. FAR more than what therapy would have cost. And hey, therapy might have worked. Wars have been stopped just by dialogue, and addressing real issues that each side carry.
A penny's worth of prevention...

Your evangelical president wanted nothing to do with prevention in the lead up to the war that did not have to do with military force. No therapy for that nutjob.

Perhaps he is a classy guy too, in your world.
Hey, they both got along like players.

chatard:

"Muslims are killing people by the boatload."

"Secularists such as yourself are diverting resources into theraputic inquiries as to how we can purge ourselves of guilt before the Muslims slaughter us."

You don't think that christians are not killing muslims by the "boatload"? Our evangelical president sent a (mainly) evangelical christian army into the middle east and to the edge of the Holy Lands to kill muslims.
I guess that is acceptable to you, all the justifications and crap rationalizations for it aside.
Some are looking forward to the "slaughter", presuming that is is the herald of the Second Coming. Perhaps you are one of that cult of destruction.

Believers on all sides of the Religious Abyss are lining up, all certain that they know the True God and the True Way. Ready for bloodletting.
Such people are diseased, having in fact turned their faces and hearts away from Love and Divinity for base Braveheart stories.
If they could all go off and kill each other off I would be sad and horrified for them and humanity, but happy that they just kept the killing to themselves. Do not bring us spiritually moderate and lovingly focused people into that Inferno.
Please.

"The Pope, however, HAS CLASS."

If he is unwilling to be an honest participant in interfaith dialogue and forwarding peace in the world, then I would respect him to say that directly. If he in fact believes that there is no room for honest dialogue without negating his faith, he should say that, and he would be respected for that. It lacks spiritual courage and leadership, but...
He has fronted that he is open to interfaith dialogue, though, and if that is not true, as this suggests, then he is a hypocrite.
Your classy guy ought to clarify himself.

I am afraid that it does suggest a step backwards. I read an article on this issue, attributed to a letter that the Pope wrote to an italian author in support of his book on Catholicism. Perhaps that is the truth of it, and the dialogues that he has had interfaith, and those that the Popes spokesperson attributes to him, are window dressing. This would make sense. The Catholic Church has always believed that it was the One True Church of Jesus Christ. It must maintain that sense of lineage for it's own PR.

This goes back to one of the fundamental religious traps. Spiritual elitism in the assumption of owning the One True Way to Heaven. It is a disease, and causes untold amount of pain and suffering in the world.
Abraham must have been a bad man.

What the Pope may be saying is that in the end there is no honest dialogue because there is the belief that there is nothing to dialogue about. For him there is only one door to heaven and it goes through the Vatican...

Yet for evangelicals it never has gone through Rome except when Christ was there.

And for muslims it circles Mecca...

I agree with Mr. Hirschfield that dialogue is always possible, and indeed is all the more necessary when there is opposition and diversity.
Yet it does require honest participation.

Perhaps that is something that this Pope knows he cannot do.
The more the shame.

If you want to waste time, energy and space about the Pope's language 'harming' something, press on, Rabbi. Muslims are killing people by the boatload. Harm? Secularists such as yourself are diverting resources into theraputic inquiries as to how we can purge ourselves of guilt before the Muslims slaughter us. You can speak for yourself and say "I don't really believe what I believe" or "I don't know what to believe". If it works for you, go for it. The Pope, however, HAS CLASS.

CCNL:

"These examples were used by others as examples of what to do with conquered foes."

Ohhh! Now I understand. You concede that Joshua fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down. You retract all your previous statements that this never happened.

It is because of Joshua the the atrocities listed in the US, British government reports, in the EU reports of Christian and Muslim crimes against Jewish children, men, women occur. It is God who makes the Christians do it. That is, God and Joshua.

So since we know Joshua existed, and all of the Tanakh is true, you can go back to your vodka.

When you get sober, you can convert to Judaism and get victimized by your former fellow christians.

ccnl- you and Thomas are diametrically opposed in everything. You don't understand his comment about the crucifixion or its meaning for him. You've set yourself up to be the master naysayer of everything- this contributes nothing to the conversation, which is the function of the comments section of blogs. You're just one of several posters who complain about On Faith, who call everyone else idiots (0f course as compared to them) and yet persist in posting. It makes one wonder why you (or they) bother.

History unfortunately serves a bad example and unfortunately repeats itself. The Jewish atrocities listed in the OT for example from the Book of Joshua-(from Wikipedia) God commands to completely exterminate "anything that breathes" in the cities in the land to be inherited.[4] During the conquest God commands his people to kill inhabitants of numerous cities (often including women and children). No explicit justification is given in the book for these atrocities."

These examples were used by others as examples of what to do with conquered foes. The writers of the koran picked up on this and put their own spin on these atrocities as Muslim methods of dealing with infidels. This continues to haunt us as seen by recent events.

The solution: A complete "Crossanization" of the OT, NT and koran.

Thomas, "trinity-hallucinator" and mythcial Moses of the NT, Baum,

The historical Jesus, as per many NT and historical Jesus exegetes, did not say "Come follow me".

e.g.

"The commentary in The Five Gospels includes the following:

The metaphor of fishing for people may go back to Jesus. The saying in its present form, however, is not the sort of aphorism to have been repeated during the oral period. "Become my followers and I'll have you fishing for people" is suitable only for the story in which it is now embedded, since only a few of his followers were originally fishermen. Further, as scholars have long noted, the story of the call of the first disciples is expressed in vocabulary typical of Mark, which suggests that Mark created both the story and the saying. (p. 41)"

And Thomas your suffering for "crucifying" the simple preacher man needs some dramatic updating with respect to common sense and reality:

As per the famous Catholic and contemporay theologian, Father Edward Schillebeeckx, from his book Church: The Human Story of God,
Crossroad, 1993, p.91 (softcover)

"Christians (et al) must give up a perverse, unhealthy and inhuman doctrine of predestination without in so doing making God the great scapegoat of history."

"Nothing is determined in advance: in
nature there is chance and determinism; in the world of human activity there is possibility of free choices. Therefore the historical future is not known even to God, otherwise we and our history would be merely a puppet show in which God holds the strings. For God, too, history is an adventure, an open history for and of men and women."

So Thomas, take off your hair shirt, you did not crucify anyone. The simple preacher man caused a disturbance in the Temple. He was arrested by the Roman soldiers and summarily hung on a cross. End of story!! Deal with it

Why the heck should anyone care what the old goat says?

These "interfaith dialogues" are barely less idiotic than this blog. Send the old dude to Barney's and tell the Vatican to get over itself.

CCNL

You wrote, "A good dose of "Crossanization" of all religions will fix a lot of this. Are you ready to "Crossanize" orthodox Judaism??"

Is "Crossanization" a worshipping of one's own intellect?

When Jesus said, "The mysteries of the Kingdom will be revealed to the little ones", He was not only talking about the people of His day but also of today.

The "learned" of Jesus's day seemed to be just as "blind" as the "learned" of today.

When LOVE spoke, we could not handle it, so we killed Him.

Now we water down what LOVE said and blame others for killing Him rather than letting what LOVE said seep into our hearts and at least attempting to live it.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Previous Popes have been open to dialogue. This Pope had made plans to calm retirement before being chosen. He is not in the mood for much work.
He is not sure of himself, also. Dialogues are possible if the agenda is limited to few items, like renouncing violence ( something Islam will never renounce).

CCNL

You wrote, "Demographics play a major role as do the myths of the NT that blames the Jews for the crucifixion of the over-hyped simple preacher man named Jesus.".

As far as anyone calling themself a Christian and blaming the Jews for the crucifixion of Jesus, God-Incarnate, they don't know what they are talking about.

I am a Christian, a Catholic and I cherish my Catholic Faith and I am responsible for Jesus's crucifion, that and answering in the affirmative to Jesus's invitation to, "Come follow Me" is what being a Christian is.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

CCNL- Judaism is not a religious sect. get over jericho (can we say stuck on the past?) As for the rest of your post- it's unreadable drivel.

Observer,

Terror activities against and by Jews and other religious sects are not new. (e.g. the atrocities of Jericho vividly described in the OT).

Demographics play a major role as do the myths of the NT that blames the Jews for the crucifixion of the over-hyped simple preacher man named Jesus. A good dose of "Crossanization" of all religions will fix a lot of this. Are you ready to "Crossanize" orthodox Judaism??

There can be no meaningful dialogue without accepting the validity of someone else's beliefs or even non-beliefs. The present Pope has a reputation for being hardline. Any interfaith dialogue he professes to want almost feel like condescension to us "less correct" religions. His sole interest is in promoting Catholicism, as a religion and as a power. If real interfaith dialogue is going to happen, it won't be because of this pope.

And it won't come from those who will not stop evangelizing long enough to listen to others of different faiths. After all, how meaningful a dialogue is it when we talk, and yet you cannot accept the validity of my religion because only yours can be right. Until that core religious perception changes for everyone, there is no real dialogue.

Why can't the Pope simply say what he means so that people won't have to speculate on the meaning of what he was trying to say?

BRAD HIRSCHFIELD

You wrote that the Pope said, ""inter-religious dialogue is not possible in the strict sense of the word...that a true dialogue is not possible without putting one's faith in parenthesis.""

I don't know what the Pope said but picking two parts of what seems to be one sentence and saying that this is "WHAT HE SAYS AND WHAT HE MEANS" does not seem to be something that I could comment on as far as what the Pope said, but I could say that your interpretation is just that, your interpretation, and it does not shed any light on what the Pope said and what he may have meant or even what I may think that he meant.

Could you or someone else direct me or anyone else that is interested in just what the Pope said, so that I or anyone else could have an informed assesment of just what the Pope did say and then may have an opinion on it?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

B16, bishops, priests, rabbis, imams/clerics, evangelicals and "prophets" all need a good dose of "Crossanization". Then and only then can dialogue/convergence begin.

Of course the pope finds other 'belief systems' defective; just as muslims find other belief systems defective...and mormons find other belief systems defective. Once indoctrinated into a particular religion one inevitably finds other religions untrue - or defective.

As an atheist I find all supernatural 'belief systems' not just defective...but absurd.

It's no wonder the religious always disagree with each other about whose god is the real god.
Believers conclude that there is no god except the god they have been indoctrinated to believe in.
How ridiculous.

It makes more sense to conclude that no gods exist; and without childhood religious indoctrination - we'd all be atheists.

And then there's this:

For Rivka, Gavriel, Moshe et al targeted because they were Jews, not because they were part of the oppressive Hindu regime that treats Muslims as second-class citizens and always has.

Lest we forget you, Gavriel, Rivka, Moshe.

England:
Report of the All-party Inquiry into Anti-semitism
http://www.thepcaa.org/Report.pdf
_________________________

US Report on Anti-semitism
http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/102301.pdf

_______________________
EU Report on Antisemitism 2001-2007: Updated 2008

http://fra.europa.eu/fra/index.php?fuseaction=content.dsp_cat_content&catid=449677441f3f3

EU report: widely held that some incendiary information was suppressed.