National Thanksgiving and Prayer, but not "To God"

Oh, hey, Merry met, Dragondancer. :)

You'll find there's a number of Pagan regulars, here, given the theme of the forum.

Anyway, it's very true, some of this. Much of it has to do with the *tone:* those who want to use *our* government to say, basically, only conservative Christians pray or are thankful or otherwise 'like Americans should be.'

The way things have gone, of late, the 'Culture War' on everyone but conservative Christians is meant to purge everyone else from their own government and society.

Of course, whenever someone's about to try some kind of ethnic, cultural, or religious 'cleansing,' they have to present the idea the privileged group is 'defending' something against 'outsiders,' in order to justify what they do to themselves, even if it gets silly.

A few years ago, the Fundies were trying to blame non-Christians *for* their commercialized winter holidays, ...with a change of talking points, now we're 'stealing Santa Claus, that Christian symbol' if we say a happy holidays without bowing to Jesus.

Yah.

"Why do so many people presume that for prayer and thanksgiving to be meaningful, God must be invoked? And why for so many others, must the mere mention of prayer and thanksgiving cause an almost allergic reaction of unpleasantness?"

Quite simply, because many have been taught that unless their God is demanded exclusively, something is being taken away from them, and for the rest of us, these invocations of a particular God as if a certain thing was meant by that *exclude others from full citizenship.*

This is a problem because some have gone well out of their way to *make* it one.

It doesn't *have* to be this way, but you can't blame people who oppose these divisions for not liking them.

Well said! The trouble with a national prayer is that America was founded on religious freedom, and for some, that includes freedom FROM religion. That does not mean that Christians are not allowed to pray to their God, but rather that they should remember that not everyone does and should not be forced to. There are Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Shintos, Bahais, Jains, Native Americans, Pagans, Wiccans, agnostics, atheists, and other religions in this country, and it is simply impossible to craft a prayer that includes every path. Let people decide for themselves whether or not to invoke a deity or deities; do not shove your beliefs into their faces by invoking your deity in public. That is what houses of worship and homes are for, not public podiums and such.

As a Wiccan, I know too well what it's like to have someone else's religion all but rammed down your throat. I don't go running around telling people they have to believe in the Goddess and the God because proselytizing/evangelizing is extremely rude, yet others have no compunction about harassing me in the name of their God. Thanksgiving should be a holiday for EVERYONE, not those who subscribe to a specific religion. We already have a National Day of Prayer that the Christian faiths have all but taken over for themselves; let Thanksgiving be a day when people are free to decide for themselves whom to give thanks to.

Let me amend Mr. Hirschfield's comment, "Why do so many people presume that for prayer and thanksgiving to be meaningful, God must be invoked?"

Why do so many people assume that for anything to be meaningful, we need a national day of prayer? Howabout, for example, a national day of making contributions to food pantries? Or homeless shelters? Or to the Red Cross? Or a national day of signing petitions calling for the total abolition of the remaining remnants of the discredited, defunct, and worthless Republican Party?

I can't speak for persons of the Jewish faith, but I can tell you beyond the shadow of a living doubt that Jesus specifically ruled out any Christian participation in a national day of prayer. Here's what he said:

Matthew 6:6 - But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.

And lest he be misunderstood, he returned to the theme again and again:

Matthew 6:16 - "And when you fast, do not look dismal, like the hypocrites, for they disfigure their faces that their fasting may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Matthew 6:5 - "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward

Matthew 6:2 - "Thus, when you give alms, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by men. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.

Thanksgiving is a memorial celebration of the harvest meal shared by the first permanent European settlers and their native neighbors in which they acknowledged God's blessing and provision. IT IS WHAT IT IS. To morph Thanksgiving into something else is to extract all of the significance from it. Holidays in general are either 'patriotic' or 'religious' anywhere you go in the world. America is a country founded on Christian principles and it has been an outstanding success. Anyone who emigrates here CHOOSES that situation. I've lived in a Muslim country for 15 years and never expected anyone in that country to change how they celebrated their holidays just because I lived there and was different. As long as we are free to celebrate in our own ways we should be content. Live and let live. Worship and let worship. Don't remove the soul of our 'holy days'. As far as I'm concerned the way that Thanksgiving is handled in the public schools is just turkey and history... no thanking God. So I'm not even sure what your problem is. Our leaders should be free to express their own faith in relation to a holiday. And we already DO HAVE a National Day of Prayer every year in May...

Interesting. I wonder if we know how to be grateful, thankful, in a deeply reflective, even spiritual way, with or without God.

BRAD HIRSCHFIELD

You Wrote, " Why do so many people presume that for prayer and thanksgiving to be meaningful, God must be invoked?".

Do you think that it could be because they believe in God and for others because they have met God?

You also wrote, " And why for so many others, must the mere mention of prayer and thanksgiving cause an almost allergic reaction of unpleasantness?"

Could it be for all of the talk about "rights", that some seem to forget that we "all" have freedom of religion which to me means "freedom of conscience" in that I and everyone else can believe what they want but no one has the right to force their beliefs on another?

Then you wrote, " That could be accomplished by coming together over the value of thanksgiving and prayer WITHOUT God."

This to me is absolutely absurd and "UNCONSTITUTIONAL".

People can give thanks however they wish but to "tell" people how to give thanks is just plain wrong and as far as I am concerned, it is taking "political correctness" to the extreme of squashing both "freedom of speech" and "freedom of religion".

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.