The Power of Faith and the Problem with Magic

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sayin Deniz Baykal, devlet mali deniz, yemeyen Isevi degil, anlar misiniz bu sozden? yoksa pasta mi istersiniz?

BArack Obama is in Jerusalem, this is the second "bulldozer" case a few hours before He arrived to visit. where are the "bulls", spain? denmark? hittitians?

jerusalem is the temple of agartha, jerusalem is one of the two directions for prayer, previous one, the direction is later Abraham's Cube.

i hear "how do you do?", thanks, i am pleased to meet you, how do you do?

how do i do? this is vital it should be long term, parties should come together to touch and embrace. we cook, we wash the cloths in our hands. we sleep together, i love her scent, when she is happy her fat is a perfume. we dont have regular meal times. we walk as much as we may. we listen to radio. we love new tastes. we talk cinemas and news.

we dont have sex, we touch each other and we mix our arms and legs. we support each other, peace and tranquility. we change our minds and psychology.

no preservative, once or twice a month, no abortion in case of pregnancy, touching is soothing. during daylight time, night is for rest. this is the magic.

and they had established a state in the land of Armenians.

European Union

President of France Arcbishop Nikolas Sarkozy built the Mediterranean Union, and Sirbia shall in the European Union.

i had explained for Armenia and Russia to be in the European UNion with Turkey.

Department of Armenian Culture and Literature is in Nevsehir, the city of Orthodox Church.

why did Benazir Bhutto (english) and Tansu Ciller (american) visited Kosovo? jewish central asian muslims? torah muslims? karaman muslims?

karaman muslims in Yugoslavia, the jewish ones with seal of solomon, exiled by ottomans from Mersin Tarsus of CAtholic Church of PAul, of Armenian City that had been murdered en mass? KAramans had made wars against Armenians.

Vagina : Evagina
Anigave : Ani gave

vaggini? to shot a medicine?
for birth of bird?

gina : fed up with, arabic
Eva : Havvah? HAnnah?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anu

Sirbian Radovan Karadzic is a psychiatrist and a white bearded alternative healing poet.

ridvan : being content and satisfied, gladness, "gina"

Ridvan : the archangel in the door of heaven,

Ridvan KAradzic has been arrested for Sirbia to be in European Union.

is "Karadzic" "from FAmily in KAradeniz, Black Sea"?

Ocean, Mediterranean Sea, Twelve Islands, MArmara and Black Sea.

Her Majesty Elizabeth, i am able to comprehend the dialect of London Boris, sometimes, maybe after AKP, the doctor Her Majesty had invited to London shall be in the government, Muhsin YAzicioglu, "yazicioglu" has reminded "Idris" Andreas to me, if i have not mistaken, also Hermes and Egypt.

in case of Barack Obama, i see the man in the Green Mile, Tom Hanks and Stephen King (Istanbuldan Sivasa trenyolu), He has already swallowed much, and in case of His Presidency, there must be water in the sponge, Israel put on "water" as the structure, and sexuality shall be in the current, after Summerian CAse and AIDS.

in the Quran, the verses about sex, any kind of relations between parents during menstruation or some other means other than Ani'gave (Anu's-cave), are from traditions based on Torah, but different in Egypt and MAlaysia, of Hermes and Andreas.

we shall go on with Kevser and Thymus Gland, "will You mind if i bow Barack Obama Way?" yes sure, however You do. my ancestors grew Oak on this land. Portugal, Holland, Endonesia, Greece and Iran. what is the chain between these stations? Messenger RNA knows.

Human : one man
Humeyn : two men, arabic lexicon (my joke)

evet sayin Ahmet Necdet Sezer, Alarko ve Mustafa Yurtkuran icin ne diyorsunuz? hokka alti mi divit mi? yoksa kedinin hakki icin mi?

last night i walked in a park in the city, the windows of Celikpalas Hot BAth Hotel were alight, in the circus families from Jordan and those who know King Fahd were entertaining, it was a long time after i had last been invited to have cheer and entertainment in.

today, the cake with milk, sweet, egg, oil, flavour was from the Neighbours of Sekercihoca "master who made sweets" in the morning. sukurler olsun, dun gece rahat uyuyabildim, geceye yuruyebildim.

bahar ve yaz vakti ogrenciler ortalikta yayilmasin diye kampusteki cimenlik alana bocek salan bir yonetimin dusurulmesi ne kadar ibret verici.

Ataturk ile Humeyni hakkinda bahis acilmis. Sorasim geldi, iki dil mi biliyormus, iki dil iki insan. Hu Meyini icen de dillenmez mi bulbuller, hak asigini goren de sakimaz mi gonuller? 30 Agustos senligini Gazi Orduevine aldiginiz icin tesekkur ederiz.

at the university, in computer science and engineering department, i was in theology, maths, music, philosophy and linguistics, and my friends were in History, Leninism, Communism, cinema. they were living in houses where groups of students stay together, me too. They were not permitted to be in relation with their girl friends, me either.

The bene’fit of being in Anadolu, Her Majesty, is that Major Frank Wise Authors have addressed to Anadolu. In case of language attained, it is a wealth and privilige to be where they addressed, like a child with letters in the house from elders and parents.

around 8:00 AM, i did see a girl, having breakfast, looked at me as Second Lady in the Presidency Palace of France did, allelujah, the First Lady is MAry. There must a grandparent in a house, this is the cheer and peace of a family.

Lets stand up.

In the first world war, who did Churchill address to as ape? Israelians? Hebrew? In the second world war, who have been burnt to have sow-up from fat of? Hebrew? Israelians? No. Jewish from Central Asia? Yes. Those from Central Asia are known with communism also. Stalin's featherless hens from Altay Mountains of Black Roosters, in stead of Persian turkey.

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"when shall the revenge of Israel end? when shall the revenge of MAsonry end? when shall the revenge of muslims end? of Soviets? of Germany? of Christians? when shall the pain of MArie Anthoniette end?"

"in the advanced zoos, every animal has its own room, and care. they are not kept in one place. or this is a jail, or a zoo of primitive conditions. all should be back to their own lands. or all should have their own rooms. is this land a prison?"

"Israel, do You need slaves? do You need workers? from which one shall You protect, Israel, while they have Agartha Moses Jesus Andreas Muhammed Summerian Assyrian Armenian Hurrian Persian Siberian Masonry Egyptian all?"

"why dont You check the genetics and send to their own lands that shall create problems not? Stalin should have sent to genetically appropriate places and roots, not to exile."

"why do You keep all in one place!? why dont You treat this land as You treated Yugoslavia later!? You keep all in one citizenship, passport and identity card".

"they build houses after houses. they build highways after highways, railways after railways, this land is not on the rocks for all to be here".

when shall You teach from the beginning, from Egypt, from Scandinavia, from Israel?

"why do You keep them illiterate? why do You let the illiterates be governors? why dont You give them their roots and sources? why dont You send them back to their own houses? when shall You give them their own language and dictionary? they are busy with unwise trade, why do You keep them in illiterate unfaithful trade?"

MAtthew 7:22-28

www.kuran.gen.tr/?x=s_main&y=s_middle&kid=15&sid=7

Quran 7:22 Elevated Place,
Agartha, CAterpillar Caccoon

till they learn they are on EArth?

"bu kadar aptal olunmaz ki! bu kadar ahmak olunmaz ki, bu kadar kor olunmaz ki"

Luke 7:22

"why do You let them have a government? why do You let them have a country? why do You let them have a land? why do You let them have an army? why dont You educate them in an obligatory course?"

"they seed trees, they shall say this land is ours", "they shed blood, they say this land is ours", "they shed house waste, they shall say this land is ours". "they shed water of their mouth, they shall say this land is ours", "they shed tears and sweat, and they shall say this land is ours"

why do You let them live in such a mind? why dont You teach them with another sentence to wake up with? shall they be in purgatory till they learn they make the body? should we be doctors and teachers, for God's sake!

lets me stand up,

Williams Bush,

You make trains comfortable, Ferryboats comfortable, spaceships comfortable, houses comfortable, why dont You make the Earth Ship House Train comfortable?

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In the main, this is a well-reasoned argument. I do take exception to "fanatical secularists who mock all faith." Secularists, among whom I number, by definition, believe that religion has no place in government or public education. That view isn't fanatical, and it contains no mockery. In fact, I don't think the word "fanatical" applies to most atheists, among whom I number, since our basic wish to be left alone by religionists.

When atheists start trying to convert believers, fanaticism may be present, if, and only if, the atheist is motivated by some confused personal desire to set things right. If the behavior is really defensive, then, of course, fanaticism is not at issue.

I'm with Morning Angel on this one - great to see a liberal perspective on this issue.

Traditionally, magic has been defined in Judaism and Christianity as attempting to coerce divine or quasi-divine powers to act in accordance with your will. That's not how it's defined in Buddhism or Paganism, but we are in a minority and having to work quite hard to gain acceptance of our perspective on this. So I don't think there's any need to yell at Rabbi Hirschfield for using the term in that way - he did make it clear that he was aware that there were other definitions.

I'm glad that he made it clear that "one person's paranormal is another person's religion". I think that is an excellent point.

Aside from angels and magicks, I'm just grateful to see anyone who professes adherence to a religious doctrine willing to tolerate diverse faiths and/or lack or them. Thank you.

Magic (Paranormal) and Religion are reviewed at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magic_(paranormal) .

Robert,

You're right - The Rabbi is most likely not using the same definition of Magick as I do. Unfortunately, his definition is the only one many non-Pagans know.

lepidopteryx:
Actually, that is NOT what magick is.

I don't think Rabbi Hirschfield is asserting the same kind of definition for Magic as you are, Lepidopteryx. Assuming you are following a similar definition of Paganism as I - which is a broad assumption considering the umbrella term that Paganism is in contemporary society - Rabbi Hirschfield's definition of Magic is that of the variety determined to fulfill selfish outcomes. More money, coerced love, binding, hexes, etc.

But is magic really all that different from a prayer? Burn your candle, light incense, smoke a pipe, call the quarters - call the saints?

I'd love to see the discussion on diferentiation. That's the tricky part - we try to assign specific and scientific language to vauge and fuzzy terminology of faith.

It's eternally amusing to me. :}

Hmmm, the poll did not address belief in "pretty/ugly, wingie, talking thingies. Tis strange since one would assume they would be considered in the realm of the paranormal (definition- Beyond the range of normal experience or scientific explanation).

Some background on these "beyond the range of normal experience" thingies:

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Jehovah Witnesses have their Jesus /Michael the archangel, the first angelic being created by God;

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerbell" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty/ugly wingie thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinkerbells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Well, on 'negatively-branding exorcisms,' let me make it abundantly clear that a lot of Fundies are doing some bad things to people and especially *kids* and calling it exorcism.

The state of Texas just made it impossible to sue a church for trauma done to children in the course of these 'exorcisms,' so tell me *that's* all in my head.

Gods know I've picked up enough wreckage of such practices.

If we think that having “the right faith” or performing “the right ritual” will guarantee a specific desired outcome, then we have made ourselves into the God in whom we claim to believe – turning Her/Him into our servant to be manipulated at will. That is no longer faith, but magic, no matter what it’s called, or upon what tradition, including my own, it is based.

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Actually, that is NOT what magick is.