Changing The Debate From What Is Right, To What Works

Midshipman X,

You write, "Our solution is simple: eliminate the large-scale, mandatory prayer and in its place allow those who would like to to pray to do so on their own or in small groups at their individual tables."

Of course. I congratulate you and your colleagues for taking this action and deeply regret it was necessary.

Rabbi Hirshfield:
Thanks for the article. I would agree with you in principle about the idea of reciprocal respect of the community's needs in this setting, and perhaps just staying quiet to let the event happen with no fuss.

However, as others have posted, the military is a unique setting--heavily influenced by tradition, superior officers, and a very hard-lined pecking order where individual beliefs aren't particularly respected or encouraged; many have said that the military is not a democracy, and they are correct. Non-compliance is duly noted, and repaid in kind.

As such, it is easy to understand how such well-intentioned faith-needs can become controlling, abusive, and manipulative. If anyone doubts this, read "With God On Our Side" by Michael Weinstein. He really started the ball rolling on this issue as he experienced, tolerated, lived with religious-turned-physical abuse during his experience at the academy, and then the straw broke the camel's back as he witnessed his own son going throught he same mess.

I'm afraid I'd disagree with your assessment that this would simply be about spiritual needs. This goes way beyond that, and incorporates a history of intimidation and abuse that runs much deeper than a simple prayer at mealtime. I think the ACLU is spot-on in bringing this issue forefront.

And contrary to Gary D's comments on another thread, religious manipulation (in any form) is not what these cadets "signed up for" when they devote their careers to serving the country.

"... The fact that he had a million problems with Wicca was simply trumped by his duty to honor the spiritual needs of the man before him. If that isn't a model for religious openness without the surrender of religious integrity, I don't know what is."

That's a good policy no doubt but it would be much better to have an entire government that actually respects all religious opinions as equals! If this were the case, Wiccan soldiers would have Wiccan clergy offiate their burials. That would be an institutional model for religious inclusivity.

Christian Clergy of the many divisions of Christianity may have an effect on how you accept God, in the religion your were born into, or accepted when older. How your Lifestyle develops, will strengthen your Faith, or change it, or lose it.

I had two pastors, in the Missouri Synod Lutheran Religion. One from Birth until I was 32, when I moved to to suburbs. I had another pastor until I was 50, when I gave up Church for this new understanding, of GOD, God, and Human Life. I did not give up GOD, God or Jesus.

Eternal Physical Life After Birth, is a High Tech Science Lifestyle of the Gods of religion and myth. GOD is the Maker, of the Temple of All Visible and Invisible, Physical and Element Life, as we Know it today.

I accept that Human Pure-bred Asexual Bodies, made in a High Tech Womb, can have Eternal Physical Life After Birth, like the Gods of Religion and myth. I do not accept Religious 'Life' After Death anymore.

The Invisible Elements of our Physical Bodies, made in the female womb, do Return/Decay to the Invisible Elements, in our Solar System and in our Universe. High Tech Science Eternal Physical Life, is possible After Birth, for Humans Born, or 'regenerated' like Jesus with High Tech Science.

Jesus and the 'Father' of Life on Earth, are Physical Higher Human 'Beings', called Religious Spirit 'Being' Gods. Original Humans on Earth, with Eternal Physical High Tech Pure-bred Human Life, lost this Knowledge, when they started Heterosexual Mis-bred Body Birth, and lost their High Tech 'regeneration' Science.

What is Life After Death, but the return of our Living Elements, to GODs Invisible Elements Storehouse, that are Eternal, but change into Life Forms. Without GODs Invisible Elements, to Transmigrate, there is No Life as we Know it, After Birth.

Hel of a time for some preacher to be worried about the 'Glory of his God' after Dubya got someone's arse blown off inna name of one book over another, anyway.

By the way, speaking of 'What Works,' I got a pretty nice book here which works great for interfaith occasions that maybe your chaplain friend could use, columnist: "Celtic Devotional" by Caitlin Matthews.

It's obviously done by a Pagan, but kind of in keeping with some Celtic ideas of not necessarily naming your Gods, anyway, and there's a number of prayers in the back that I think a Christian clergyman could say without breaking any oaths or anything... certainly great ways to phrase things in meaningful sincerity without making one's own religious framework be the first and foremost issue. I've used them, or worked off snippets from them, in reverse that way: you use a divine epithet like 'Gatherer of Souls' or 'Bright Lady,' you don't have to stumble awkwardly or swear to anything you don't want to.

Christians will see a character from their religion in that and Pagans will see our own.

I couldn't tell you how many Christians have figured on me being sent by 'Angels,' ... OK. That's actually pretty high praise, I think. Doesn't do much for Pagan PR, that, but most of us aren't in the habit of advertising for our Gods, anyway.

There are deeper obligations. Like showing that help and humanity *exist,* and someone who gives a crap can scuffle over the credits. On their own time.

"But I will never forget speaking with an Evangelical minister about his challenge in providing a meaningful burial to a Wiccan soldier. The fact that he had a million problems with Wicca was simply trumped by his duty to honor the spiritual needs of the man before him. If that isn't a model for religious openness without the surrender of religious integrity, I don't know what is. Let's try and address the prayer question in that spirit -- no pun intended."

I'll tell you one thing, sir. My issues with Christianity are no secret, but I bet I got more experience being Wiccan clergy helping Christians than that chaplain could imagine the other way around.

But that's what chaplains, and I'd like to think, clergy of any kind, are *supposed* to do. not take advantage of the occasion of someone dying or being in pain to try and convert someone or pretend they did.

Maybe the Religious Right thinks 'vocations' are that conditional. I would question anyone who tried to take such ideas into the field, at least after dealing with real humans.

Thanks to Midshipman X, both for his courage in bringing a genuine conern to his superiors (never easy in the military) and also for proving my point. The issue here, is not and never was, public prayer per se'. It was and remains the unresponsiveness of the Naval Academy adminsitration. Their failure to engage in precisely the kind of conversation which I suggested, has landed in court, which is never the best place to work out one's differences.

I deeply appreciate the need for an environment free of religious coercion. Last time I checked, it is one of the values for which this nation stands and which these soon-to-be officers have pledged to defend.

We often miscontrue each others attempts to create settings that respect all people, either as being spiritually coercive or hostile to religion when that is not the intent of either side. My comments were directed at breaking that cycle and creating an environment in which better solutions could be found. Let's hope that they will be.

I am one of the nine midshipmen that brought the noon meal prayer issue to the ACLU's attention. We did so only after our numerous attempts to discuss the prayer issue with the Naval Academy administration failed. Our solution is simple: eliminate the large-scale, mandatory prayer and in its place allow those who would like to to pray to do so on their own or in small groups at their individual tables. We are not opposed to prayer; in fact, I encourage those who are religious to do so. We would simply like to be free from having the religious views of others imposed on us, much as you would like to be free from having my views imposed on you.

Midshipman X

The problem is not (usually) with the chaplains. Rather it is that when you have a mandatory group prayer, the arelgious or different religious believers are forced to label themselves for all to see. And religious prejudice is probably the deepest and most widespread of any prejudice in this country. I'm fine with a moment of silence. But spiritual needs should not be met by mass prayers at mealtime. Let believers and non-believers seek solace in settings that do not force those who choose not to participate to label themselves in ways that seriously risk bringing them under attack from others.

The reason the ACLU has a role here, that "why can't we all just get along" is not an adequate perspective, is that we're not talking about a random group of folks in a neighborhood or on a train or in a multi-cultural workshop...

In a government-sponsored context, let alone a military one, there are issues of power: the power of the institution, the power of the majority... and responding to the abuses of power with homiletics and abstractions is not only not valuable, it's dangerous.

The ACLU is representing one side of this debate, the side I happen to be on. I wish that they did not need to; this would be a much more reasonable situation if we could all just 'sit down' and figure out a solution to this. Unfortunately the other 'side'- religious zealots who think their God is best for everyone, not just them- makes something like the ACLU necessary to counter them.

"Banning" prayer will be counterproductive, unfortunately- the best way would be to simply allow those who want to pray, pray, and leave others alone; but as the recent case in Iraq demonstrates (Susan mentions it), that simply doesn't work. Many are unwilling to accept soldiers who do not pray to a God and believe in a magical man in the sky. There's no good solution here.

Always nice to see there are people in established religions who take religious pluralism seriously and sensibly, in a way that's helpful to all. Thank you.

Those of you who have been watching the HBO series "Generation Kill" may agree that, from the perspective of this fictional presentation, PTSD is the only rational response to what these youngsters have to experience. "[I]nviting all those affected to consider the needs of those around them" is, I am pretty sure, not going to "work." A burden those of us alive today have to bear is that these kinds of divisions are recurring, even when we imagined they may have disappeared. Certain perspectives instead imagine that their only option is to kill those who think differently. For this perspective the HBO movie "The Kingdom." Forget that these are fiction. Remember that these artists are trying to portray the world they find around them.