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Frankly, I don't understand why the religious leader of this country are so confused about the issues of sex, or should I say peoples preference regarding sex. I ask the question, "Do people really want to know how God feels about it or is it how man feels about it?" Those who feel that being gay, lesbian, etc is ok with God, are really looking to men for approval and not the creator of the marriage institute. One can never accept parts of the Bible they agree with and discard those they don't agree with. people cannot serve God according to their own principals. our worship MUST be according to the word of God. Therefore, this is what the Bible says about the activities mentioned above. Whether you accept it or not will be up to you. But, the payment for it is God's.

Romans 1:24-27 says "24 Therefore God, in keeping with the desires of their hearts, gave them up to uncleanness, that their bodies might be dishonored among them, 25 even those who exchanged the truth of God for the lie and venerated and rendered sacred service to the creation rather than the One who created, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 That is why God gave them up to disgraceful sexual appetites, for both their females changed the natural use of themselves into one contrary to nature; 27 and likewise even the males left the natural use of the female and became violently inflamed in their lust toward one another, males with males, working what is obscene and receiving in themselves the full recompense, which was due for their error."

This is what the Bible says. obviously people are not being taught God's word properly and that is why this world is sinking deeper and deeper into a morass of moral decay. Are you sincere, because anything else is not God's way.

**Mommy isn't Daddy. Daddy is Daddy. Mommy is still Mommy,**

Like I said, I think it's wierd.... a wierd way to talk and a wierd ontology and something I am not cool with.

**Gender and sex aren't the same thing. **

I have heard that distinction made before, ad I stand by my choice of the word gender.

As for your other comments, I appreciate the response, and I suspect that we are not going to be of the same mind on this issue... and that's ok with me.

Peace,
RT

RT -
**I have no doubt that your friend's child is 'cool with' Mommy being daddy.**

Mommy isn't Daddy. Daddy is Daddy. Mommy is still Mommy, only happier now that he can live as a man.

**I think it is wierd for a woman to believe she is really a 'he' on the inside. Gender and Sexuality issues are very complex but I simply can't accept that it's desireable or developmentally normal.**

Then it's a damned good thing you weren't born TG.

**I still am not going to affirm to that person that they somehow have a choice of gender outside of what biology has given them.**

That's the TG/TS issue in a nutshell. Gender and sex aren't the same thing. Sex is what parts and chromosomes you're born with. Gender is part of how you mentally, emotionally, and spiritually identify yourself. Most of the time, sex and gender match up pretty well. Sometimes they don't, and since it's much easier and less painful to change a person's body to match his/her soul than the other way round, sex-change procedures are often the best solution for making a person's sex and gender dovetail.

Lep... I have no doubt that your friend's child is 'cool with' Mommy being daddy. That doesn't mean I have to be. I think it is wierd for a woman to believe she is really a 'he' on the inside. Gender and Sexuality issues are very complex but I simply can't accept that it's desireable or developmentally normal. My opinion of their Gender identity issues doesn't make them any less of a human being (deserving of respect, etc) in my mind, but I still am not going to affirm to that person that they somehow have a choice of gender outside of what biology has given them.

PP... (1) same with shin splints... in order to show you're healed, you simply have to report that there is no further issue.

(2) I often find tribal/anthropological arguments lacking; a scientist finds one obscure tribe in the brazilian Jungle that lauds transgenderism or homoerotic penguins and all of a sudden academia wants to write off the concept of male-female gender. It should be obvious to any thinking person of sufficient age ... that there are clear physical, emotional, and spiritual differences between men and women. I agree that society should not condemn self-identified trannies to sex work, but that does not mean that society has to abandon our well established concept of gender differences in order to assuage their feelings of being different.

(3) re: twitchy... I am not out to dog on anyone, but at some point you have to weigh between the decision to tell people the truth versus being inoffensive. We can pretend to be nice and say transgenderism is perfectly healthy and normal behaviour, but I really believe that it is not. I think any cartoons of people beating transgender people as you describe are hateful and horrid. There is obviously a huge difference between naming a perceived disorder and condemning a disordered person to violent beatings. I am disappointed when GLBT activists equate/conflate thing these two very separate responses.

Science will have the penultimate word on this issue, followed by sincere discernment and interpretation of how the science translates into appropriate social norms and public policies

Peace,
RT

On transgendered individuals: if they're 'mentally-disordered,' it'd seem to be the only mental illness which one has to prove they have, and then, in order to receive treatment, live for a year or two as if one didn't have it, to show oneself 'competent' enough to have oneself labeled 'mentally disordered.'

Most tribal societies have names and places for transgendered individuals that don't involve sex-work and the kind of scorn Christian ones do.

Actually, more often than not, sacred roles, set aside from certain mundania.

In fact, even the Ayatollah is ahead of the curve (Or, catching up with the ancients) on recognizing transsexuals for a) what they've been saying all along all throughout history and through many cultures, and b) what science increasingly shows about developmental brain-sex and characteristics thereof.

Basically, being a transsexual is considered a mental disorder because Western society has forgotten any other paradigm to include this natural variation in humanity.

Mind you, a lot of TSes I've known are pretty twitchy, but who wouldn't be, after a life of being treated like that.

I saw a little cartoon about it I found telling... A few panels of some male-to-female in childhood being beaten cause, 'You're not a man, you're not a man, you girl!' ....until transition, at which point everyone points and says, 'You're a man!'

Now, I don't really believe the Gods are this kind of vindictive, but speaking of 'special Hells,' I can't help but smile a bit thinking how some homophobes might reaincarnate...

But. Actually, ...things you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy?

That qualifies.

RT- **In many cases, the whole, " I think on the inside I am a woman when in fact all my genetics are male... that's where the disorder diagnosis comes in.**

The TS people I know felt from the time that they were old enough to know the difference between boys and girls that they had the wrong body. Their chromosomes said one thing, but their spirits said something else entirely. And they were never able to be truly happy until they had taken steps to make their bodies conform to their spirits.

One of my F-to-M friends even married and had a child. Even being pregnant and nursing did not make him feel female. His kids remember whne he was a woman and still call him "Mommy" and have no dificulty with using male pronouns with "Mommy" as an antecedent. They have no problem with the fact that, as one of them puts it, "Mommy used to be a girl and now he's a boy." And he will tell you in a heartbeat that he is a much better mother as a man than he was as a woman, because there is no longer a constant war going on inside him between his body and his soul.

It seems perfectly logical to me, that with all the reincarnating constantly going on, that occasionally, a male spirit would incarnate in a female body or vice versa.

To my way of thinking, that's not disordered, it's perfctly logical.

I guess I should provide some narrative beside those links... Well I have heard there are several different reasons to get gender reassignment. One is because your genitals were accidently mangled as a baby so they just raise the boy as a girl. That's well and good until adolescence when they have to have surgery to go one way or the other for good.

There are also rare occasions when some people have been found to have a multiple sets of genetics in their bodies. I saw a good explanation of it on the uccforums but they deleted most of the old posts in June.

Google says: Klinefelter Syndrome and 47 XXY

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klinefelter's_syndrome

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosaic_%28genetics%29

It's really REALLY rare that somone would have this sort of genetic defect.

In many cases, the whole, " I think on the inside I am a woman when in fact all my genetics are male... that's where the disorder diagnosis comes in.

-RT

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity_disorder

http://www.mental-health-today.com/gender/dsm.htm

There you go!

-Rt

RT:
**Actually, some forms of transgenderism are still classified in DSM as mental disorders.**

OK - you've piqued my curiosity. What would thoes be?

I know several transsexual people (they've actually gone through medical/surgical reassignment), and they've never seemed unbalanced to me.

Lep: Just so you know, the UUs worked with the United Church of Christ on OWL.

Also, the curriculum is stand alone in a secular format suitable for schools but also has two separate "Sexuality and our Faith" companion volumes available that speak to religious aspects germane to the UU and UCC respectively.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Our_Whole_Lives

Actually, some forms of transgenderism are still classified in DSM as mental disorders.

-RT

Sex SHOULD be discussed at church, especially if there's this whole concept of sexual sin.

The UU's have an excellent program called OWL's (Our Whole Lives) which is a sex ed program with curricula tailored to tweens, teens, and adults. Unlike many church programs, the tween/teen versions are not of the sex-makes-baby-Jesus-cry abstinence only stripe. It does deal with the preferability of abstinence for young people, not because they aren't married, and not because of the whole si/guilt bt, but because they lack the maturity to handle the emotional entanglements that ooccur once sex is brought into a relationship, and they definitely lack the maturity to handle any unwanted physocal consequences such as a pregnacy or an STD. However, it also takes into account that these are hormone-saturated kids, and that some of them WILL hae sex, and deals realistically with that fact by providing information about various forms of barrier protection and contraception, and the pros and cons of each. It also deals with the various forms of sexual/attractional orientation in a non-condemnatory way. So BGLT kids learn that they're NOT freaks, they're just as normal as their straight classmates.

Paganplace, is there a website that documents this pogrom hypothesis?

Pogrom is one of those inflammatory words like 'ethnic cleansing' and 'holocaust' that people toss around rhetorically and hyperbolically.

I have to admit that I really don't see the degree of ideological cleansing that you do. For me it comes down to limited government and funding priorities. Stem cell research and other controversial science is not illegal in this country; it's just not funded by the government. What's the problem there? It's not like gay people are being sent to concentration camps?

Oh, and if you want to see ideological science, just look at recent statements by the APA... ( http://www.apa.org/releases/ ) They are supposed to be scientists but they are making statements on Native American Mascots, Insurance discrimination, same sex civil marriage, and the death penalty. So much for objectivity.

Peace,
RT

Russell,

Actually most teens are there because their parents tell them to go.

But neither of us are armed with actual statistics, and they say that 73 percent of statistics are made up anyways.

-RT

John:
Sex should be discussed in church. Heck, more than half the teens in church are there mainly to get a boyfriend or girlfriend.

The only reason I went to church when I was younger was for the free pizza and the girls.

Sex should be addressed because if it's not talked about, then it will lead to repression and ultimatley people striking out in ways that are demeaning to not only themselves, but others as well. Just look at the Catholic Priest sex scandals going on. Hits the nail right on the head there.

Sex is the last thing that should be discussed in the church. The church many times have gotten off the true message of Christ. Christ alone can give life. Hunger and poverty are issues close to the Saviour's heart. Faith and politics do not mix. Divisive issues which are personal should not be brought even to church. Any sin a person does is between himself and God. That person himself should start his repenting process.

Sex is the last thing that should be discussed in the church. The church many times have gotten off the true message of Christ. Christ alone can give life. Hunger and poverty are issues close to the Saviour's heart. Faith and politics do not mix. Divisive issues which are personal should not be brought even to church. Any sin a person does is between himself and God. That person himself should start his repenting process.

I mean, you know our glorious conquest of the Moon?

Our great inspired-by-Kennedy-and good engineering achievement?

Could we do it again?

No. Wanna know why?

Bushco *threw away the plans.*

Not copied and saved to disk.

Threw away. Amid protest.

We couldn't go to the Moon right now.

We'd have to start from scratch. We no longer have Saturn V tech.

Pogrom? I dunno what to call it. You tell me.

"During the whole red-state-blue-state discussion, I was dismayed to hear how gay people felt that they were going to move out of the country as if there were some sort of Christian pogrom going on in this country. It’s really sad"

As if?

Are you serious?

My sweetie and I are *still* hoping to get out the country so she can do science for real.

Cause certain science that is inconvenient to certain corporate agendas, isn't 'acceptable' anymore. In fact, a lot of Christians here are calling climate change 'idolatrous Gaia-worship.' And if the facts aren't convenient, well, shut off the satellites that show different. Put a GOP 'Intelligent design' shil in charge of NASA. Cut alll non-weaponizeable programs, even if this means the promised Mars mission can't happen with all the funded projects cause there's *no air for the boost mass.*

Typical Religious Right in charge: don't like the science that says you're out of your frickin' mind like the rest of the world says.... Shut off the science.

"Like there's a pogrom." Are you crazy?

Gods. It's in your face. You just wanna lick it up cause someone sanctifies your heterosexuality and says you're oh-so smart for being irrational.

Same as it ever was.

Should read "Unmarried straight men."

So does "husband of one wife" also mean that unmarried men are ineligible?

RT, thanks for your insight. I frequent other boards (usually tech forums, being the geek I am) and so I am used to this type of trollish behavior from both sides. I think this issue has the potential to be a healthy discussion if people don't start namecalling and attacking character (such as some have resorted to in Chuck Colson's response).

I don't believe the distinction between bishop and ordained pastor matters in the translation of "episkopos," perhaps because I'm not very familiar with the role of a bishop in other churches. I believe, however, that if these people are leading and instructing people this passage applies to them.

I really don't see how "one wife" can be interpreted in another way without distorting the text. Homosexuality wasn't something foreign to the Greeks at that time so it isn't something that we can attribute to being a cultural barrier between those folks and us. I think what it comes down to is eisegesis - folks will read what they want to believe instead of reading what is there.

Regarding your last issue, I do think homosexuality is a sin. I don't "hate gays" though (I'm not part of those fanatic groups that will picket at someone's funeral - I think that's very cruel and does nothing to bring glory to God).

Furthermore, I think the Bible is the best source of information that should be used in issues of discerning morality, and so it's good that folks use it. That they use it to piss people off is another matter. I think folks should be a lot more gracious to each other. Christians believe that we are all sinners, after all. We need to extend the same grace to others that Jesus Christ modeled to us. Also, for people that do not hold to our worldview and will never, there's no use in pissing them off - that's just a waste of time. =)

Don... great question but I don't think you'll find what you're looking for... I'll give it a shot even though I am not liberal in the sense you're asking about:

The first question is whether an overseer means "bishop" or a "pastor" in the Septuagint. I think the greek is episkopos.... so the question is whether episkopos applies to ordained pastors or just to bishops.

The second question is whether a gay person in a committed relationship *to one person* fulfills the "husband of *only* one wife" requirement as long as they are otherwise above reproach and "temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money" ... that's where the divisivenessfest comes in. To you (and most people) wife means wife, but to some people they see it as a requirement to only have one sexual partner. Yeah, I know, but that's the argument.

There are people here who think pointing out "gay sex is a sin" is hateful since they think such speech acts lead to a climate of violence against gays. Just so you know, that's what some people hear when Christians come on these forums and repeat the same eleven Bible verses that clearly proscribe gay sex and man-woman marriage. That think you hate gay people. A lot of non-Christians simply write you off if you can't logically defend your beliefs without reference to a Bible they don't believe in. Most of the Christians on these forums believe exactly as you do or they are "trolls" who just say rude things to get a rise out of people.

Just so you know.

Peace,
RT

For the liberal folks out there, please explain how 1 Timothy (New Testament) can be interpreted. Or are you really doing eisegesis and interpreting the Bible based on your modern liberal views outside of what scripture says?

Here's a snippet speaking about qualifications of pastors:

"Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money..."

If we continue to try to morph the requirements for pastors and as a result hold them to a lesser standard, as a church we are not holding to what the Word of God says, are we? Also, a pastor living in unrepetant sin is destructive to the church. Jesus Christ died to redeem us and make us right before God. Why should we continue to intentionally live on in sin, much less model and flaunt it for others?

I don't intend to get into a flamefest but this conversation and the lack of backbone that much of the church is showing nowadays really is concerning.

Richmond:

I'm sorry? Did you say something?

I think it's just you.

I think it's just you.

Russell D.:
**Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Peacetroll seriously needs to get laid?**

Yes he does, but don't hold your breath waiting for it unless you look damned good in purple.

Is it just me, or does anyone else think that Peacetroll seriously needs to get laid?

RT:

The first time I saw one of those Ray Comfort/Kirk Cameron videos, I thought it was a satire gag along the lines of "The Daily Show" or "The COlbert Report."

As satire, it would be hilarious. As religion, it's just silly.

PP... I will fully grant you everything you say about how Christians are perceived in the media as ignorant blowhards. Whenever someone like Fred Phelps cultists or Falwellian zealots issue press release edicts on behalf of Christianity, the public perception is that of a unified dominionist Christian front, but what you don't see is my experience and the experience of those like me who collectively cringe at the meanspiritedness and non-Jesus-ness of their statements. Honestly, I think Christians and homosexuals are in the same boat in this respect… we suffer from a media problem. Your nasty pediphile/bug-chasing/clubbing sterotypes are our pedophile priest/dominionist/Bible-thumping stereotypes.

During the whole red-state-blue-state discussion, I was dismayed to hear how gay people felt that they were going to move out of the country as if there were some sort of Christian pogrom going on in this country. It’s really sad.

Back to this forum and its participants... I learned a while ago that there are lots and lots of people who live real life and who don't have time to spend on internet forums... so who you are left with here is people with an internet connection and an axe to grind. If you really want to know what Christians think, don't rely on what you see here... you have to go where they hang out.

The Ray Comfort (Way of the Master) Christians who devote themselves to approaching strangers with damning scripture aren't representative of the Christians who leave well enough alone and spend most of their time living their own lives and helping people. I can assure you that Comfortites and the televangelist people are *not* representative of mainstream Christianity… even mainstream evangelicalism.

Peace,
RT

Romans 1:26-28 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

ECLA is a apostate bunch of crypto-zionist trying to dilute the truth which is Christ Jesus.

They may give 20million to feed some of hte poor (and do they not SHINE WHITE LIGHT AND WANT IT SHOWN??), but as we are told, they have recieved their recompense, they bang the drum when they give, while refusing the words of the Lord Jesus.

THey make me ill. And any real Christian will feel the same.

Grace to the brotherhood & sisterhood of Christ Jesus.

With all due respect to Dr. Edgar, it is this sort of dissembling on the critical issue at hand and invocation instead of laudable issues such as helping the poor and the environment which has sent the masses streaming away from the mainline denominations which the NCC represents. When the morals of the church become indistinguishable from those of, say, those implicitly championed by the media, interest wanes.
No one wants or needs prudery or waspish holier-than-thou rantings. But between that and the non-response of the NCC, isn't there room for a loving and principled statement that the Scriptures do not condone same-sex relationships among church leadership?

Fair enough, Richmond.

But, yes, I am one of those people to whom it *seems* the churches are obsessed with condemning and controlling sex, since that is in fact how both the media, and plenty of Christians here present themselves, particularly when their religion intrudes into politics.

The perception exists. It's in the edicts and the political lobbies and all the times I hear stories relating to how Christians want to see me treated. I know plenty of counterexamples... have worked with some on the nuts-and-bolts of the whole feeding the poor thing,

It's right here on this board... I mean, look at the post count already today, compared to a whole week of 'what from scripture or religion most defines your faith...'

Yes, it's a debatey forum, speaking of sampling bias, ...but probably a majority of what was put up wasn't about other subjects than 'Why everyone should be of my religion and why others are damned.'

No, controlling sex isn't what *all* Christians are *all* about, but to me, it's *immensely disproportionate.* Obsessive, I'd say, even in perspective. And certainly, that's what *I* hear about. A lot of actual attacks come from that quarter, things that have real impacts on real people's lives, justified by someone's interpretation of some translation of some passage out of some book or other.

How it *seems* is how it seems, ...the political and religious climate coming from a lot of the Bible-pounding crowd, and, yes, the media, ...creates a climate of fear and suspicion for my people, and for the queer community.

And you can't just blame the people who point that out for this state of affairs.

To Rob Adams and the rest of the world: Thank you, it is good to encourage one another and like I have said before, we are all in this together. At this point I believe that the thing that I am most thankful for is that God has a Plan and it is much better than a lot of people that actually believe in God want it to be which is really sad but so be it. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

"But why did the media miss the story that the ELCA raised its commitment next year to give $20 million to stem hunger in the world?"

A pittance compared to the 660 million paid by the diocese of Los Angeles for priests sexually abusing children.

The ten commandments are written on our hearts. Atheists know better than to lie, cheat, steal, kill and most importantly of all, worship Devil. Devil, you know, the being in the ball of fire that Moses made the deal with.

What happened to the 5,000 million Bush gave you as payback for his election. Is 20 million all that's actually going to charity? I see. Charity begins at home.

Actually, Many white evangelicals study the Bible the way a magician studies secret tomes. If they know more, andjust follow what Cal Thomas calls the "instructions" they will be successful, powerful, God will love the more....

Of course, there are two problems with this. The first is that it violates Jesus's statement that there were only really two commandments --love God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.

The second is that it impugns a motivation to God that Jesus specifically called repugnant. In the world view of the "instruction" set, God loves those who can read and study the bible --such as educated white guys --more than a little girl asleep in a slum walkup in the inner city.

Ok, from the context of the sentence it is not clear whether it *seemed* to you or *seemed* to the public. Given our recent conversations on objectiveness, I guess I interpreted that you were including yourself among those that it 'seemed' to.

And judging from your being raised Catholic and from the comments you say you commonly hear from Christians about your sexuality, I guess it still seems to me that you think a lot of Christians "spend all their time condemning gays."

As for the "bigot" comment, the only reason I invoke that word at all is because it seems to me that you have this word lots of times on this message board in reference to its "Bi Gott" etymology and intimated that Gott-fearing people are all bigots.

I don't know what the right way to discuss this issue is, but I think Edgar hits it on the head when he says congregations should discern "openly and prayerfully processed this difficult issue"

Clearly there are Christians of differing perspectives that worship together in the mainline church. The witness of Christianity is and ought to be that people of differing mindsets can come together and disagree without being enemies.

I have in the past participated on the UCC forums (uccforums.org) and have found it edifying (if sometimes frustrating) to relate to people who sometimes are on the polar opposite side of an issue than me. Yeah, some people are jerks, but not everyone.

Peace,
RT

Get it, Richmond, the 'statement' you used to say I was saying something 'bigoted' was clipped from a sentence including, "*when it seems*."

On this, though:

"The fact that you think Christians sit around talking about gay people all the time reveals your "observation bias.""

Actually, it pretty much reveals what I do hear Christians talk at me about, as a queer person, that is, when they're not trying to accuse me of nasty things for being a Pagan or a secularist, or believing in my civil rights, ...yes, they do talk about how much more 'charitable' they must be than I because they're Christians.

Besides, I was *raised* Catholic. The preoccupation with controlling things sexual *is* pretty darn obsessive. I do spend far more time being recriminated for promiscuity and 'sin' than I do doing anything having to *do* with *sex.*

Funny. It seems *someone's* putting a lot of personnel-hours into saying it.

Call it a sampling bias. But, hey. You guys could go ahead and decrease that portion of the sample, that'd be just fine. :)

Richmond:

""Paganplace says: "it seems they spend all their time condemning gays, or trying to figure to what degree they should be treated like a lower caste."

"This is a pretty bigoted statement based on ignorance about what most Christians spend their time on."

Actually, that's a *clause* you clipped from a statement *agreeing* with the pastor's assessment to ignore the word 'seems' and say the statement was bigoted.

Discerning God's will for a particular time and place is not child's play and we should commend the ELCA for doing the tough, theologically correct thing, even if it is not the Right-wing thing.

Conservative religious reductionism is a prescription for an inadequate, cartoon faith, one that cannot rise to the challenges of the real world.

The human tragedy is the Christian-right's ignorant flock of feckless millions. A more messed up congregation of theological cripples has not existed since the time of the ancient heresies. Vast numbers of otherwise intelligent people exist in a theological hell of lies, banalities and half-truths. And they innocently parrot their leaders in calling their theological hell "true Christianity". Tragic!

Note to conservative "pastors": Christ proclaimed a special condemnation for those who would lead innocents to ruin...

Truly, I really feel horrible for the Right's victims, those whose "faith" is a mangled mess of dead-end theological gibberish. If these innocents have any hope, it is in that Jesus commanded his followers to set the prisoners free. If Christ has truly called any of these mangled minds to be His, they will need to find a way through the thicket of banalities that the Christian right has heaped on their conscience, and find a way back to Christian firmament. The ELCA is an excellent firmament of sober theological reflection, among many others who have remained faithful to the Good News throughout this relatively brief dark age of right-wing religious duplicity.

The Christian Right has played out their shallow perspective, and they have nothing but schism to show for it; "by their fruits they shall be judged".

Even on the issue of abortion, the Right created a false polemic. NOBODY IS PRO-ABORTION, never were, are not now, nor ever will be. The Right simply poisoned the well of nation discourse, and for political reasons delayed a national consensus on an important question.

The vast majority of true Christians have remained sensitive to the reality of many thousands of young women that died tragically, desperately, during strict anti-abortion periods of our recent history, and who found that previous policy horribly inadequate. All the while some Christians, Jews and Muslims believe that life, according to the scriptures, begins with the first breath. Others felt that society would be on more firm theological footing if it took special care of the "widows" and "orphans" with guaranteed child-care, a reasonable, living wage for young working families, an adequate health care system for expectant mothers, young children and young working parents. In other words, many true Christians felt we needed to show as much concern for the born as for the yet-unborn. The Right simply polarized a vital debate, transforming a real social and religious concern into a simpleton political slogan that the Republican party then exploited as a sad, inadequate substitute for genuine morality.

The Christian right has shamefully served as a foolish handmaiden to the Republican Party, and infected the nation's airwaves with religious and "moral" idiocy. I suppose some of the Right's "pastors" had a great time rubbing elbows with Dick Chaney and Karl Rove, but now they have nothing to show for their political selfishness, yet as a last gasp they persist in pushing their banalities on an increasingly sophisticated society that listens less and less to conservatives' ideas and hysteria. Rightfully so! If our modern society takes extreme conservatives too seriously, our values and mores will not long endure.

Dr. Edgar is absolutely correct, and should be commended for his prophetic vision of a united, but diverse Church. Christians reflect an array of differences in interpretation, history, ecclesiology, theology, tradition, even what they consider "Bible".

The central point is that there are much, much more important issues to real Christians, than what political sell-out conservatives would like the world to think. The media ought to be aware that progressive Christians are ready to move past the conservative agenda to more substantive, and socially constructive issues.

The Christian Right might well try to declare that they are the religious deciders, but I suspect that they have played their last hand, and helped establish in the popular mind that conservativism is intrinsically inadequate as a functioning theology, and an abject failure as a political ideology. Sadly for conservatives, the world is infinitely more complex than they are able to comprehend. Too bad for them, and shame on us if we take the Right's agenda too seriously.

The Right needs to go back to their financially well-endowed propaganda mills (like the IRD) and demand a new improved conservative ideology because the old one is gasping its last.

Conservatives would love to dumb down the diversity of ancient, serious, careful religious scholarship and reflection to accommodate a couple of their favorite, politically serviceable issues, like gay marriage, abortion and political correctness. The Right simply does not have the depth to think for Christians. Increasingly the wider society will recognize the paucity of their contributions to our recent past, and the damage they have caused the true Church and the world.

So, we shouldn't bow to a simpleton conservative reductionism; it may prove to be the great religious evil of our age. As Dr. Edgar points out, there are real and serious religious issues to deal with, like care of creation, human hunger, homelessness, health and healing, peace, and overcoming poverty. Let's not let the Right change the subject nor steer us into more ditches.

Paganplace says: "it seems they spend all their time condemning gays, or trying to figure to what degree they should be treated like a lower caste."

This is a pretty bigoted statement based on ignorance about what most Christians spend their time on.

In actuality, as Edgar points out, most Christian organizations focus their energies on a combination of service outreach (feed the hungry, clothe the naked, serve our neighbors) as well as spiritual formation (Sunday School, sermons, worship planning, reading and discussing the character of God/Jesus as revealed in the Bible).

The fact that you think Christians sit around talking about gay people all the time reveals your "observation bias."

Because they only heard wolves howling during full moons, old time farmers used to believe there was something special about the moon that attracted howling. As it turns out, wolves howl every night of the month, but the farmers were only paying attention during harvest moon periods when they outside their houses getting farming done by the light of the full moon.

The fact that you only hear Christians howling about gays has a lot to do with how often the media reports Christians howling about injustice and poverty.

Peace,
RT

Thomas it is refreshing to see real wisdom on this site coming from someone following Christianity.

Many on this site quote verse after verse and seem to think God is in the Bible speaking directly to their opinion. You seemingly have transcended religion and grasped the spirituality that resides within the Bible.

For those that don’t know what I am talking about the message is about inclusion, not exclusion as Thomas always so eloquently points out.

Thomas while I am sure you and I different on the finer points of spirituality it is always a pleasure to read your posts that inspire love and inclusiveness.

Peace.

'to incorporate all God's children, whoever they may be' This is an interesting piece of a sentence considering that so many people that call themselves christian and bible believing really seem to hate Page One of The Bible. "Let Us make man in Our Image and Likeness" something so simple and clear that so many refuse to believe it, man as in mankind, I would say that is pretty clear and to the point wouldn't you? It does not say some men, it does not say men you agree with, it does not say repentent men, it does not say men that know My Name, it says, "LET US MAKE MAN IN OUR IMAGE AND LIKENESS", and for the people that get bent out of shape about words, man means mankind, male and female. Just like when I refer to God as He, well God-Incarnate was a guy but God is not a male or a female or an it but HE IS PURE LOVE. Jesus taught Love not dogma, not doctrine but LOVE. The bible is a book that hopefully will lead you to God but if you remember Jesus said look within, you search and search the scriptures for God but you will not find Him there, look within He is closer that you realize. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I think it's an interesting point, really, ... it certainly doesn't do the image of public Christianity much good when it seems they spend all their time condemning gays, or trying to figure to what degree they should be treated like a lower caste.

A teeny-weeny step in the right direction. The Church should be promoting gay marriage.