Two Sides of the Same Coin

BOB EDGAR WROTE: Jesus spent more time including people at the table than he did teaching about what was the right thing to believe in order to be “saved.”

WHAT???!!! NOT TRUE!!! HE CAME PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF GOD!!! THAT MEANS IT IS GOD'S INSTRUCTIONS AND ORDAINED WAY FOR MAN TO BE SAVED, AND WHAT YOU BELIEVE, WHETHER YOU BELIEVE HIS WORDS, HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH IF YOU WILL BE/ ARE SAVED OR NOT. IF THIS IS NOT SO what the hell does it matter who Jesus Christ claimed to be or what He came to do or who He came to save from what if He is not to be heeded carefully and believe on.

Hello! I'm not trying to be rude but you are a liar and blind leading the blind.

What you're saying sir is that being nice is more important than theological truth or error, more important than knowing who God is and where we stand and why and what He commands us to do. REPENT in short, we have all fallen and corrupted our way and hated God who is soooo great and good and Holy, Holy, Holy!

Satan is using you to only blur the distinctions between taught truths of God and false teachings of man that says man is ultimately capable of good and that God accepts good works over His Son's shed blood.

Note!!!! THE BIBLE DECLARES THAT, "ALL OUR RIGHTEOUSNESSES ARE AS FILTHY RAGS!" HOW ON EARTH WOULD GOD EVER ACCEPT ANY OF THESE?!!! LET ME ASSURE YOU HE WON'T! RECEIVE CHRIST AND LIVE OR REJECT HIS PAYMENT FOR YOU AND DIE ETERNALLY IN HELLS FIRES! YOU CHOOSE, I CAN'T CHOOSE FOR YOU.

The Gospel of God says,

"The wages of sin is death (God has declared the rules!), but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." Romans 6:23

"For God so loved the(fallen, evil, rebellious)world, that He gave His only begotten Son (that's selfless amazing love), that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life." John 3:16

Jesus said, "I AM the way, the truth, and the life. No man cometh unto the Father, but by ME." John 14:6

"there is none righteous, no not one..." Romans 3:10

"for there is no difference for all have sinned and fall short of the glory (holy & absolute perfect standard) of God" Romans 3:23

Tell me how can anyone imagine that they could ever save themselves in light of such words? It is absolute folly. We are not called to perfect and thus save ourselves but rather to confess our imperfection/ sin/ filth/ fallen state and repent before God in fear and receive Christ by faith in God's promise to save all who believe on Him, His words, instructions for to be saved, who He is and what He's done in/of truth, and hence receive Him as Savior and Lord.

Repentance and Faith are inseparable according to the scriptures. Turn back to God/ Repent/ Quit lying and trying to cover over your sin and receive God's provision for you in Christ alone. Christ + Nothing = Salvation!

We will either believe God or man and only one has the ability, authority, and provision to let us/ bring us into heaven and to declare us righteous in and by His name and sacrifice alone.

Good people don't go to heaven, there are none! The only good person ever to live on this earth is Christ the Son of God Himself and He died the bad men and women's death for their forgiveness if they will receive Him.

Again I say, good people don't go to heaven! There are none! Romans 3:10 says so! ONLY repentant sinners, FORGIVEN and REDEEMED lost and fallen people, will go to heaven! Sinners sought out by God Himself and saved by God's amazing gracious choice to lavish His mercy and love on us, and to give this grace to us through faith in Christ as SAVIOR and LORD. Christ's unblemished, holy, pure blood had to be poured out unto death completely for our justification before holy God. He atoned for our sin against our holy and righteous God, but we must believe in truth with all our hearts these things are so.

To Jacob Jozevz, you probably will never read this, but... I must say that I believe you are in grave error as are all of mankind from birth with God (and man) and you speak no man's language nor God's and have expressed your total depravity and conjured up lies to feed to other people around you.

All of your words are from none other than Satan!

Why should you give yourself over to do the will of the one (Satan) who not only did not create you but who even hates you (desires for envy of God to destroy/ mutilate/ tear you asunder by turning you against God - because he knows, he has heard and understood that God is holy, just, and righteous and will/must destroy all rebellion = evil against himself). Why would you love Satan who not only hates you but also hates our good God in who's image we were created in for good, to know, love and worship Him as His sons and daughters in all of His glory and wonder of His amazing person. Who is like HIM, GOD, OUR CREATOR, REDEEMER, AND WHO IS BEYOND BEING KIND TO WE EVIL MEN AND WOMEN IN THAT HE HAS PROVEN TO BE EXCEEDINGLY MERCIFUL IN NOT CASTING ALL OF US INTO HELL ETERNALLY THIS SECOND. HE WOULD AND IS JUST TO DO SO. I PRAY HE WILL NOT... indeed He will not for His plans He has decreed but many will be cast out into outer darkness and fire and weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth for eternity. That is a sorry thought, picture unimaginable to mortal man.

You, nor I, nor any one else will ever escape except you/I/all else repent of this evil and bow before and unto the Lord God alone and receive Christ Jesus His Son as your/my/all else's LORD and SAVIOR alone.

NOTE: I see that you have elevated your self and your other "Eclat-i-On(s)" above the Only God, without whom there is nothing, and you are nothing short of an anti-Christ at present. Note all of you who read, if you reject Christ as your Savior and Lord(God), you too are nothing short of an anti-Christ because that is what it means, to deny the only true Christ Jesus and who He absolutely is by the authority of God and the holy scriptures aka the Holy Bible.

You oppose God and forget that Satan whom you follow, (for all mankind are born in a sinful state and are turned away from God to follow Satan and therefore all must repent and receive Christ by faith), again you forget that Satan whom you follow, and thus worship (you are a slave to the one you obey and obedience is a component of all worship), he (Satan) was once in a good and holy place given to him by God for him to give praise and honor to God (both his and ours, yes God is Satan's God too, he must and does answer to God) above all other angels and became proud and sought to be like or take the place/position of the Most High and in his folly the once "most beautiful angel" of God's creation Lucifer/ Satan was cast out of heaven along with all of his rebel follower angels by the God of heaven and earth Himself and became the "most ugly of angels" ever to fall from God. Sure he "disguises" himself as an angel of light, but he is in truth total darkness and ugly beyond ugly, someday he will be seen for what he really is, a mere created vessel of God's making and nothing more, all power striped away forever.

"GOD IS" over all and His power exceeds and covers all who, like Satan, think so loftily of themselves and who foolishly determine and seek to array themselves in battle against Him for their own glory and power. It is nothing less than to self destruct. That is what we have all done from birth; as in Adam we have all sinned against God willfully/ willingly and died spiritually and decaying towards physical death and then eternal death in hell. No one twisted our perverted arm.

Only God is worthy to receive glory and honor and power and only He will ever get it. You have nothing but what He has allowed you for a short time and you will pay dearly for such selfish ambitions as you have and pursue.

No one will ever succeed against the Almighty God and His holy Son Jesus Christ, the ONLY Messiah for mankind. Even I can gather that.

All who persist in their rebellion against God (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) will only succeed in finding themselves fallen down and knees truly bowed at God's Son's feet in reverence and fear and will be judged and cast out of the presence of God forever by "His" sovereign authority and power and will and "no one" will be able to exalt themselves against God any longer for all the rest of eternity, such ones "will" burn and suffer His eternal wrath in hell's fire.

One last note, I gather from the preachers of the Bible/ God's word that if we will only humble ourselves and mourn and repent before God for our sins and believe on the Lord Jesus Christ for the cleansing and forgiveness of our sins and receive Him not only as our Savior but also as Lord of our life, that then we may and shall be spared and saved from judgment that leads to hell. God our creator made us for His good pleasure and glory and in absolute holiness, purity, and love... how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? This really is an amazing thing... that He/God/Christ the Son of God willingly died for us (His mortal enemies and vile evildoers) for our sins and our salvation to pay in full for our crimes against Himself and shall we reject Him for foolish and harmful desires that lead only to eternal destruction. I can't understand it, I don't think I ever will... It is too perverse and inconceivable to reconcile and reason how or why... complete depravity is the only answer and I don't even get that.

He/Jesus Christ the "only" Son of God suffered our deserved penalty on the cross and was in a "God appointed/ ordained" moment in time on our cross He was forsaken of God, His very own Father, because of our filth which was laid upon Him, which He willingly bore on His shoulders, and He actually bore all of our sins away (according to the scriptures)when He completed all of the work which was divinely given to Him to do of His Father's will and when He said "It is finished!" and then divinely gave up His ghost/life/breath of life and died willingly for you and me, He was saying "It is finished!" All of God's will was completed and finished in Jesus Christ who did the work of creation in the first place... The "finished" work of salvation was/is complete by what Christ did in/by His obedience to His Father on our behalf at the cross.

WE ALL must confess and forsake our sins before God and return to Him for mercy and life by faith in His Son Jesus Christ; we must receive Him by faith as Savior and Lord and only then we will live.

Help O God, work in our hearts by Your grace else we continue in our evil ways. Open our eyes and turn us back and free us from Satan's lies and give us new hearts that we may repent and in faith believe on Christ for forgiveness and eternal life and put Your Holy Spirit within I pray. Hear O God in Your mercy. Amen.

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Let's get back to basic. Good works are the fruit of love in our heart. If you have love in your heart, you have Christ because Christ is love. The bottomline here is Love as in love your neighbor as yourself. If there is love in every heart, there is peace and all these ramblings here is over. This is the sum of all Christ's teachings. Atheist and theist alike if they let love reign in their heart, harmony and peace reigns. What a wonderful world it could be.

If you're a Christian, here's life:

God exists (by chance),

You live.

You will die.

You will waste oxygen, food and precious resources while you live.

The sun will super nova and it all will be as if it wasn't...

...except you'll get to chill out with God eternally, doing nothing too much.

So I guess it has meaning because it never ends? Or because someone is watching?

Is it not service enough to serve your fellow creatures? Is service only worthwhile or sexy when we believe we're serving something more powerful than us?

Canyon Shearer:)

Hello, hello, hello............

These On Faith threads are not the same without you.

May God be with you.
May God be with us.
May God help those who have opposite views.

Best regards

no mention of sin by this guy, just marginalized people. JESUS didn't give his life for us because we are marginalized by our fellow man but because we are separated from his father because of sin.

I am always amused when Protestants find out about good works and then slide into Pelagianism.

Catholics know all this, but also know about something called doing the duties of one's state of life.

So "feeding the hungry" doesn't mean we all have to work in soup kitchens; it can mean cooking for your family day after day, and offering this daily chore to God as a prayer.

"sheltering the homeless" might not mean demonstrating about more welfare money, but might mean letting your neice live with you when she finds herself homeless and pregnant at fifteen.

Indeed, you need a balance between faith and works, and prayer and work.

But insisting on the importance of "good deeds" ignores that many people doing good deeds become arrogant bastards and know it alls, and many who remain loved years later are those who do small deeds quietly with love.

"Everyone here has a God or god."

I bought mine at K-mart -- it's a little less polished than the department store gods, but it cost much less.

"Some worship the one true and living God"

Well, mine has never lied and it is at the moment alive. Some people claim it is really a fish -- but I think they are primarily heathens. I've named my god 'Herbert' if that helps. It just seemed right.

I can't wait for your website to open, Jacob!

Let your PHOTONS shine brightly!

Mr. Franklin,

Jacob is perfectly fine, he just happens to speak in a different language occasionally.

Much like the Bible in a way!

Jacob J

Have you had a stroke or something?

You ok?

Mr. Shearer:

"There are those who are clean in their own eyes but are not washed of their filth."
-Proverbs 30:12

I know what it's supposed to mean in the biblican sense. However, to me it makes no sense at all.

"You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."
-Luke 16:15

I never justify myself before men or women. I do however speak to ECLAT through my heart, and IT has told me that I don't have to worry about abominations. I will become part of IT once I die.

"You've seared your conscience and declared your own goodness. You enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin, your sin for a season will result in everlasting destruction."

I try to do no harm to anything, animate or inanimate. Therefore, I have no fleeting pleasures of sin.

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
-John 3:19

Since IT is the light and I love the light and hate the darkness, I can't possibly have done evil deeds.

What I don't understand is that so many people are deluded by old papyri written by man, not God.

Mr. Shearer, you have my deepest sympathy!

If your an athiest, I'll give you the meaning of life...

You live (by chance),

You will die.

You will waste oxygen, food and precious resources while you live.

The sun will super nova and it all will be as if it wasn't.

So, in the mean time feel free to believe your life means something.

yo-yo:
Religious thinking is by definition thinking inside the box.The bigger picture is outside the box.
In pondering the cosmos and the meaning of life
the God hypothesis prevents any further inquiry into what life is really all about.
Our ancestors,the people who invented religions and gods in the first place,were ignorant,illiterate and superstitious beyond our wildest imaginations.
Unable to make any kind of sense of their situation
they figured that there must be SOMEONE responsible for all this. If any of us had been around in those frightening times we would have agreed with them;and we would have used the god idea to explain everything,from the trees moving in the wind to the patterns of the clouds drifting by.
We've come a long way since then.We no longer have to pray to everything that moves.We know better.
We are now able to think outside the box called religion,and get a clearer picture of reality.
There should be no need of the supernatural in this new century.Surely we've moved beyond that.

Nice post Canyon Shearer.

Here are a few more to live by:

Micah 6:8
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2The same was in the beginning with God.

3All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

John 8:58
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Revelation 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Very nice post, Gary.

I agree that I am completely incapable of saving anyone. A drowning man has no business being a lifeguard, but here are three Bible verses I live by:

"Faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
-Romans 10:17

"And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand."
-Matthew 10:7

"Preach the word; be ready in season and out of season."
-2 Timothy 4:2

I pray, therefore, that God should give those that read this blog repentance unto the knowledge of the truth; that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

I am so glad that God is much nicer than most people that claim to believe in Him think. Being a christian does not mean to be the most arrogant, judgemental, unforgiving, condemning person on earth like some people seem to think. Jesus said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they are doing", how true then, how true now. God wins, the seventh day will get here whether you like it or not. It is simple not easy. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Everyone here has a God or god. Some worship the one true and living God the rest worship either money pleasure or power or some combination of the three. Those who worship at the altar of pleasure find themselves her victim and slave all too frequently. this they demonstrate by the invective they hhurl at those who were called to a different God.

A small warning canyon no man has the power either by eloquence or law to save another from hell and damnation or for that matter from their own selfishness which is sin. All we as Christians can do is warn them of the abyss beneath their feet and pray that God in the fullness of time changes their hearts that they might be saved.

Mavaddat, how hard it must be to oppose yourself so thoroughly.

Please see:
http://trustobey.blogspot.com/2007/06/biblomorphism-article-2-morality.html

Dear Gaby,

Please see these verses:

"There are those who are clean in their own eyes but are not washed of their filth."
-Proverbs 30:12

"You are those who justify yourselves before men, but God knows your hearts. For what is exalted among men is an abomination in the sight of God."
-Luke 16:15

You've seared your conscience and declared your own goodness. You enjoy the fleeting pleasures of sin, your sin for a season will result in everlasting destruction.

"And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil."
-John 3:19

Please take a moment to consider the Biblical view of man. Even if you don't believe it, you would profit to at least understand it.

Canyon,

It's pitiful to see your great anguish and fear of death expressed in your post.

Morality is not determined by God, it is determined by human culture and by what aids survival.

God was a useful tool for scaring immoral people into being moral, but we are mature now. We don't need to be saved from the characters in bed time stories. Though, perhaps you do, which is why you should keep believing in God.

We understand you have no reason to be good without God, and since we don't want you murdering people, we would all prefer you persist in your delusions. Thank you.

I believe that faith requires more than just belief, but I don't think that it requires good works. I think Bob Edgar actually contradicted his own premise when he said "When one has chosen to follow Jesus... One cannot help but be motivated to build up God's kingdom here on earth." In other words being saved causes one to want to do good works. It cannot be the other way round, so they are not two sides of same coin at all. Many people do good works and feel good about themselves, but they aren't saved for doing it. Being saved is priceless, it cannot be bought.

Luther wanted it out of Bible because money hungry Pope played on Catholics guilt. Saying you must pay to show your faith.

The program, Mr. Shearer, is that you don't need to be saved.

You say: "In order to receive these gifts freely given, Jesus demands that you repent; that is, turn from your sin, apologize, and present your sorrow to God. Then place your full faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and He will save you. He will create a new heart in you, and you will know that you have been forgiven."

I don't need to turn from any sin that I am aware of. Neither do I need to apologize for anything I am aware of. And I don't have any sorrow that I am aware of.

Therefore, I don't need to put my full faith in Jesus (why on earth would I trust a man) because I don't need to be saved.

Plus, I like my heart just the way it is. I don't need a new one.

Gaby, congratulations on so successfully showing your hatred and misunderstanding.

Whether the precepts involved are real or not, the question was whether doing works or being saved is more important; apparently in the Christian tradition.

It had very little to do with what your post addressed. Please get with the program.

OH GOD ALMIGHTY, Canyon Shearer is back!

What else can befall humankind now!

Canyon, the bible is as clear as mud-pie!

Jesus DEMANDS? Who on earth is he to demand anything from anyone. He was a Jewish preacher who was killed in the fashion of his time. That is it!

For the most part, I felt that this was a good post, but a few things you said threw up some flags...

I am extremely tempted in my own philosophy and action to lean towards "Kingdom Theology", which I know is wrong, but it is constantly my incidental goal. This theology says that we should be constantly working towards manifesting Christ's Kingdom on this Earth; a synonym for this philosophy is "Theocracy", a combination of theology and democracy.

We will never achieve these ends, because the world loves its sin much more than it loves Christ, and our enemy working through all this is the death wrought by sin.

When we try to feed the masses and heal the sick, it is as if we are working in an Emergency room, and someone comes in with multiple gunshot wounds to the torso and a mild headache, and we treat them for their migraine first. The major issue is the gunshot wounds, the major issue in life is sin, and death, and Hell. Once we have addressed soteriology, then by all means, lets discuss works.

I could address the other little things that kinda made me go...hmmm...in Mr. Edgar's post, but I think answering the question is more important.

I do applaud you for at least reading your Bible. I can't say I agree with your interpretation of the text, but I'd like to go to the Bible to answer the question of works of faith.

See Luke 10:38-42, in which Martha is working hard to prepare a meal, and Mary is listening to the teaching of Jesus. Jesus answers the question for us, "Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her." On the second visit to Martha's house, we see a different disposition from Martha, in John 11:17-27, she has abandoned trying to work for favor, but rather having complete faith. Then, after Lazarus is raised, both Mary and Martha have roles to perform in John 12.

What is to be learned? Faith without works is dead; but works without faith is equally dead.

Throughout all this, I've been using faith in substitution for saved. Faith is 1/2 of salvation. Just like if you were freefalling through the air from 16,000. All of the works in the world won't help you now; flapping your arms, visualizing yourself not falling, all of your past good deeds; none of these will save you from gravity. Only a parachute will save you, and faith in the parachute will make you put it on and use it. The parachute will do all the work, but it must be worn and put-on properly. See Ephesians 6

But what do we need to be saved from? In the parachute analogy, you are not being saved from the airplane which we jumped from, but rather because you've transgressed gravity you'll face the wrath of the ground. Similarly, you won't go to Hell because you don't believe in God or Jesus Christ, but because you've transgressed the Law of God, which says, among other things, "Thou shalt not lie, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not use the name of the Lord in vain, thou shalt not commit adultery." These rules are outward as well as inward, Jesus said, "He who looks at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery already with her in his heart."

The transgression against these laws is called sin, and the wages of sin is death. The Bible is clear that all liars shall have their part in the lake of fire, that no thief, no adulterer will have part in the kingdom of God, and that God will not hold anyone blameless that takes His name in vain.

The entire world is plunging headlong in transgression against the Law of God; destruction is assured, and pain will follow. But it is possible to be saved, just as that parachute will save you from gravity, Christ will save you from Hell.

He can do that because blood is due for your transgressions, and Christ, of whom no blood was due, took your place on the Cross at Calvary. He went through hell so that you won't have to. Your fine is paid in Jesus Christ, and you can be forgiven. Not only so, but because Jesus rose on the third day, He defeated death, and once you are born into the family of God, you will inherit eternal life.

In order to receive these gifts freely given, Jesus demands that you repent; that is, turn from your sin, apologize, and present your sorrow to God. Then place your full faith and trust in Jesus Christ, and He will save you. He will create a new heart in you, and you will know that you have been forgiven.

Once your salvation is assured, then works will follow; not to earn Heaven, but to show your appreciation and gratitude to the God who saved you.

Please, address your life-threatening sin, before you diagnose and treat your migraine.

Ghandi provoked violence nearly everywhere he went and was eventually shot by another HIndu.

Who'sebetter among those choices is a rather pointless question given that it appears that all of them are possibly arging about it even as we speak and likely in a very warm place indeed.

So who was 'better' -- the 'saved' Nazi Catholic invading Russia or the Soviet atheist defending Leningrad?

Who was 'better' -- the 'saved' Mussolini or the polythesit Ghandi who espoused non-violence?

Which do you judge more important -- being 'saved' consistent with your particular faith or the lifetime of good works performed by those with views incompatible with your faith?

Not must Mr Edgar but will respond they can't help themselves any more than they can help breathing.