Forgetting How to Forgive

PSolus

You wrote, "Ah, don't sell yourself short, you've posted some very imaginative fantasies here."

Time will tell.

You also wrote, "I'm sure that you desperately want me to meet your imaginary god, but I'm simply not as deluded as you appear to be, so you shouldn’t count on that happening—you’ll only be disappointed."

Not really, just stating a fact.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You wrote, "Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will the deity forgive one who committed a crime against humans. This does not mean that the Lord is vengeful, but simply that he has placed the matter in human hands."

What you wrote here is part of what "Christianity" is about. Some seem to think that Christianity is about receiving some kind of "get out of hell" card for themself, whereas it is God taking upon Himself ALL of the sins, wrongdoing, shortcomings, inhumanity toward others, whatever one wishes to call it.

In doing this God, in His Way, has made it that any wrong done by anyone, is ultimately done to God.

It says, "Vengence is Mine, says The Lord", it does not say revenge. This means that ultimately, we are answerable to God. We can take "responsibility" for what we do or not, that is our choice but whether or not we do, does not change the fact that we are responsible for what we do.

As I have said before, "Christianity" is just part of God's Plan, which God has had since before creation and God's Plan continues to unfold, even as we chat.

As I have also said before, "free will" would not be free will unless it were truly free and since God knew that not all would "repent", take "responsiblity", however one wishes to phrase it, God came up with a Plan.

God's Plan is not only for ALL of humanity but also for ALL of creation, the new heavens and the new earth, and God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Hope you are doing fine and I wish you well and I thank you for chatting.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Baum,

Re: Your post

I'm not quite sure of your point. Certainly, I do not claim to be an expert theologian, as you should know by now. However, what I posted about Judaism's view of forgiveness and justice is as basic to the religion as the Ten Commandments. It does not admit of disagreement.

As for what God can and cannot do, Judaism places no limits on the deity's ability. However, the deity, with the Torah, interpreted both in the later Tanakh and externally, made clear what the limits of forgiveness were with respect to Him.

In the case of wrongdoing committed by one human by another for crimes committed against him/her, forgiveness rests solely with the victim. Forgiveness in the face of the miscreant's genuine repentance, effort to change, give redress, is generally seen as the right path.

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES will the deity forgive one who committed a crime against humans. This does not mean that the Lord is vengeful, but simply that he has placed the matter in human hands.

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES may one human being forgive another for crimes committed against others. I, for example, cannot forgive the rapist of my neighbor for the crime he committed against her, the mass murderers in Darfur, etc. I would hope you could see the wisdom, the compassion in this.

In light of the foregoing, the case of murder may not be forgiven. The living may not lay claim to the murdered man or woman's soul.

The deity gave the principles, the way, the "Torah" to humanity that it may develop the rule of law. The purpose of the courts is to determine guilt or innocence, order restitution where it is due, etc. Forgiveness is not a judicial function.

Thomas Paul Moses Baum

"By the way, God is way beyond my "imagination"..."

Ah, don't sell yourself short, you've posted some very imaginative fantasies here.

"...and don't worry,..."

Thank you, I shan’t.

"...one day you will meet God also."

I'm sure that you desperately want me to meet your imaginary god, but I'm simply not as deluded as you appear to be, so you shouldn’t count on that happening—you’ll only be disappointed.

Don't worry, be happy.

Peregrine Bartleby Rumplestiltskin Solus

PSolus

You wrote, "Each person can be the sole authority on his or her own version of what he or she imagines to be true."

If you read what she wrote, she wrote it as speaking for "Judaism", did she not?

You then wrote, "Each person can place himself or herself above the god that he or she imagines to exist."

Anybody can do anything that they want, I was just pointing something out to her.

You then wrote, "This is a perfect example: you have placed yourself above the god that you imagine exists."

How is this?

By the way, God is way beyond my "imagination" and don't worry, one day you will meet God also.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas Paul Moses Baum

"First off, I do not know if you can be the sole authority on what "Judaism holds" considering that others, that are Jewish, may disagree."

Each person can be the sole authority on his or her own version of what he or she imagines to be true.

"Second, for anyone to say that they can tell God what God can and cannot "forgive" is placing themself above God."

Each person can place himself or herself above the god that he or she imagines to exist.

"Third, since we are all made in the "Image and Likeness of God", ultimately all sin, wrongdoing whatever one wishes to call it, is against God."

This is a perfect example: you have placed yourself above the god that you imagine exists.

Don't worry, be happy.

Peregrine Bartleby Rumplestiltskin Solus

Farnaz1Mansouri1

You wrote, "Judaism holds that forgiveness for wrongdoings against humans is a personal matter, not a public matter, and is to be left at the discretion of the victim. Only a victim may forgive a crime committed against him/her, not a family member, not even the deity. (God will judge and forgive crimes committed against Him.) In the case of murder, the problem is evident."

First off, I do not know if you can be the sole authority on what "Judaism holds" considering that others, that are Jewish, may disagree.

Second, for anyone to say that they can tell God what God can and cannot "forgive" is placing themself above God.

Third, since we are all made in the "Image and Likeness of God", ultimately all sin, wrongdoing whatever one wishes to call it, is against God.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Judaism holds that forgiveness for wrongdoings against humans is a personal matter, not a public matter, and is to be left at the discretion of the victim. Only a victim may forgive a crime committed against him/her, not a family member, not even the deity. (God will judge and forgive crimes committed against Him.) In the case of murder, the problem is evident.

When the case is not murder, the victim is urged to forgive a genuine penitant--for all the obvious reasons.

Forgiveness, however, does not rule out justice, which is a civic affair.
Once a case has been placed before the courts, the courts are to decide on guilt or innocence and mete out justice.
The sentencing is to be left to a court of law. Neither the victims nor their families have any say in the matter. Until quite recently, that was the case here.

In the matter before us, there is no debate. The convicted felon was not repentant, and mercy played no part in his release. As the Times UK reported, Abdel Baset al-Megrahi was released under pressure from British Petroleum. I've posted the link on Susan Jacoby's thread.

As for you, Mr. Ghandi, I suggest you consider the matter of your own repentance, long overdue, before you pontificate for others. The hundreds of millions of Dalit in your country would benefit from your deep regret, subsequent efforts on their behalf, some small compensation for the priveliges you enjoyed throughout their misery.

The readers of this blog would benefit from learning whether you have yet repented your racist rant against Jews, when you will be ready to tell us what you have "learned," as Quinn promised you would two years ago.

The harm you did to the father of Danny Perl, among others, is harm you should surely regret, harm for which you should seek seek forgiveness.

The first step is repentance....

Ryan Haber

You wrote, "In fact, mercy (though not forgiveness) is founded upon justice. To dispense mercy to a person who has no concept that he stands in need of it does not serve his best interests - it only reinforces his self-righteousness and refusal to reform."

To not dispense "mercy" may just reinforce the "self-righteousness" of the person withholding the mercy, remember what Jesus said, "Blessed are the merciful, for mercy shall be theirs", if you notice Jesus did not put ulterior motives upon showing mercy but put it very simple and straight-forward, "Blessed are the merciful...", did He not?

What the "person" that mercy is shown to, does with that "mercy", is that person's decision?

I thank God that God is not as "stingy" with His Mercy as we seem to be with our's, putting preconditions on mercy is not mercy but is extortion.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

withouthavingseen

I disagree with you.

Mercy is not founded upon justice and neither is it appropriated as you claim:

"Mercy is not a demand of justice, and can only be dispensed when the ultimate goal of justice - conversion - has been accomplished."

You are right in one thing: mercy is not a demand of justice.

But if justice must first be satisfied, then mercy is not needed because the reason for it is gone. Mercy steps in and rescues the guilty when Justice demands to be satisfied.

In fact, by its very nature, mercy HAS to be, in spite of, and before fulfilling, the demands justice. I repeat, mercy says more about the giver than about the one who receives it. Read Ezekiel 36:16-32.

Forgiveness, mercy, and justice are three distinct categories - they interact with each other and are NOT mutually exclusive.

In fact, mercy (though not forgiveness) is founded upon justice. To dispense mercy to a person who has no concept that he stands in need of it does not serve his best interests - it only reinforces his self-righteousness and refusal to reform. The point of mercy is that a person, justly condemned, and REPENTANT, recognizes the evil he has done, and so is granted clemency, kindness.

Mercy is not a demand of justice, and can only be dispensed when the ultimate goal of justice - conversion - has been accomplished.

Forgiveness is another animal altogether. That has more to do with the interior attitude of the one who has been harmed. We should muster up forgiveness as quickly as possible, because that is what enables us to deal with our malefactors with magnanimity, as our Lord did from the cross ("Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do," Lk 23:34). It allows them to treat them as we would be treated, to view them as best we can through God's eyes. In this way, we can maintain our sanity and much more accurately assess the situation, setting aside vengeance in favor of justice, and when the time calls for it, extending mercy.

It is good for us to forgive even very wicked people as quickly as we are honestly able, without sugar-coating genuine resentment and anger that still needs airing and praying. But mercy should not come until the rightly-condemned man is able to receive it with a right heart.

Otherwise we embolden his evil by what he will certainly interpret as our weakness.

Ryan Haber
Kensington, MD

Thank you for a sensible and magnanimous article. While forgiveness was not involved in al-Megrahi's release, compassion and mercy were. And until we learn to apply those, our terrible cycle of violence and hatred in this world will continue.

Arun Gandhi

Nice article.

Those that call themself, Christian, should reflect on what was said by the One from which the designation, Christian, comes from in the first place.

All should reflect on the fact that unless someone "forgives" then escalation of unforgiveness, bitterness, hatred and revenge will follow as sure as night follows day.

I am thankful that with God there is Mercy because it should be pretty obvious that with humanity it seems to be in rather short supply.

Reminds one of tics sometimes, doesn't it?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I agree with Arun Gandhi on this. How can we lead as a great nation if we do not forgive, if we do not show mercy?

Libya is a backward Moslem country as demonstrated by this man's koranic slaughter of infidels and his countrymen's saluting him for it. Time to build some added walls to isolate these lunatics!!!