Act Now to Heal Religious Hatred, End "Religious" Terrorism

Astoria
Ukba

THE NEO-ATHEISTS and their “innocent” quest for religious knowledge

The neo-atheist which is a new “religion” is a form of “militant atheism” which is against all the religions. There questions to you on this forum are not as innocent and they seem to be. They come here with a mission to create doubts about all religions may it be Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

Before you answer their questions about your religion is it not befitting to have the introduction of the person i.e. what he himself believes in. Internet do not mean you hide a dagger to attack other religions while you hide yourself.

Atheism is a rejection of all religion, or at least of all theistic religion, and since Islam is usually considered a theistic religion, atheism is in principle opposed to it. However, as a phenomenon with its roots in Europe, atheism has concentrated its opposition to religion on Christianity. The new atheism, by contrast, emphasizes Islam as a particularly virulent form of religion that must be opposed. Often, the new atheists claim that because of the events of 9/11, they feel compelled to take a strong stand against religion in general and Islam in particular. Because of this, atheists who focus primarily on Islam, such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, may also be considered to be a part of, or at least allied with, the neo-atheists.

Atheists do not have anything new to offer. The neo atheists tend to show no interest in professional philosophy, religion, or theology and target the mass market. The arguments against the existence of God are generally versions of scientism, the view that all of life's problems may be solved by appeal to the natural sciences, and the moral argument against religion, that religion brings out the worst in people. They hide under humanism and pretend to be kinder species. There aim is just to confuse your about what you believe.

Peace and regards.

Part2 (continue last sermon of Prophet Muhammad)

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, say your five daily prayers , fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth tax. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.

Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, my examples and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people".

READERS: Don’t believe twisted cut/pastes about Islam. Read the Holy Book Quran your self.

Part1

Dear Readers

Negative comments are so many on this forum but what is the message of Hajj no one mentioned that very important aspect.
Here is Prophet Muhammad’s Farewell Sermon:

After praising, and thanking God he said:

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners.
Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds.

God has forbidden you to take interest, therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. God has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived...

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

READERS: Don’t believe twisted cut/pastes about Islam. Read the Holy Book Quran your self.

Rabbi,

What follows is part of a post from blogger, Farnaz, cut and pasted from another thread. Perhaps, you will either reply to some of the more pressing points she makes or take them up in your next posting.

"The US is largely responsible for the hell on earth that is Pakistan at present, as I have frequently posted. How the racially motivated attacks on Gavriel and his wife Rivka, six months pregnant, both murdered in front of their son, who was rescued covered in his mother's blood fits in with all this escapes me.

Those in Naiman House were specifically targeted. The terrorists were told to go after them and torture them. Six were tortured to death. Had it not been for the remarkable nanny, Moshe, the two year old, would be dead as well.

The nanny, Sandra, repeatedly says she is no hero. She said, "If I were a hero, I would have saved my rabbi." However, the families of the victim and the nation of Israel do view her as a hero, as do I. This was one racist incident that the Israeli government could not keep from its people.

The whole thing was horrible. All those deaths--Muslim, Hindu, et al. But this racist targeting of Jews all over the world can only result in one of two things--neither of them very good. There is no justification for terror, not in India, not anywhere. Racist terror is particularly disgusting.

I find it extremely peculiar that not a single panelist mentions Naiman House."

December 7, 2008 7:38 PM | Report Offensive Comment

jeff-in-dc- the two articles you posted links to are the same opinion piece written by a rightwing journalist.

A more accurate rendering is from wiki:"The "Freedom Seder" was the first widely published Passover Haggadah that intertwined the archetypal liberation of the Israelites from slavery in Ancient Egypt with more modern liberation struggles such as the Civil Rights Movement and the women's movement.[1]"

And if you would like to get a better understanding of Rabbi Waskow, instead of insulting or condemning him, you should read this interview:http://www.jewcy.com/post/hearing_call_rabbi_arthur_waskow

The rabbi has a long and illustrious history of interfaith work for peace, far more I am sure than most of the antagonistic people posting here with insults and misinformation about him here.

To whom it may concern

I have read comments in this forum with intrest and would like to add my voice too.

Rabbi has talked for re-conciliation, but it badly short circuited the temper of few of our "distinguished" comment writers.
On one hand they cry for freedom and equality, on
the other they suggest to expell Rabbi Arthur from this forum - What a hypocracy?.

You dont want to talk to the reps of muslims in US and alleged they are promoting terror, go to court and prove your allegations, but demonizing a religion with vast following just because you dont like it, and your talk of freedom and equality? what a hypocracy?

You remember and can recall acts of terrorism but what about state terrorism? what about abu graib and gatanomo bay?
What about indiscriminate bombings in afganistan and iraq - are those killed are not human beings?
sure not.
Fighting wars and hatching conspiracies against other states, funded by bumber poppy crops in afghanistan - How you can oversight this? - please open your eyes and heart as well.

I commend great voices like Rabbi Arthur on this forum.

Rabbi,
Here is my reply to Soja, which I posted on the main thread. For her posting, scroll up.

Soja:

That was a beautiful post. Thank you. I hope Farnaz, who's taken a hiatus from this thread checks in to read it.

For me, the horror of the three hundred dead, the countless traumatized, the countless deformed is haunting. That the murderers singled out foreigners in particular shows their attempt to cripple India not only with respect to tourism, but in numerous other ways.

That they were instructed to single out the Naiman House is bone-chilling, to single it out and torture its Jewish inhabitants to death. This
they did to the extent that the doctors who saw the bodies have tried to forget.

I've been reading about the young rabbi and his wife. Gavriel had been asked if he feared terrorism, replying that he knew it was a real possibility but didn't fear it. I imagine he could not have dreamt that savages would slaughter his Rivka who was six months pregnant, that they would kill both of them in front of their two-year old son's eyes.

I would imagine that Gavriel could not have imagined that his son would be badly beaten and brought out covered in his mother's blood and crying for her.

I've been reading posts by people who either knew them or met them. They were there for Jewish residents, travelers, sojourners, and to reach out to Bene Israel and other indigenous Indian Jews, but their work went further. They had good relations with all. They worked with the poor and lived very simply.

The Mumbai tragedy is beyond one's capacity to describe. Racism is a special horror worldwide. There have been three reports in the last few years on global anti-Semitism, one commissioned by the US on anti-Jewish racism here, one in England commissioned by Tony Blair, and one commissioned by the EU, widely believed to have concealed some of its findings.

Interestingly, in England, France, Germany and other European countries, these racist attacks have just begun to be treated as such. A terrific scandal shocked London when a young woman was so brutally beaten that she had to be hospitalized.

These racist thugs and butchers, these animals are not only self-declared Muslims, but self-declared Christians. The savagery at the Naiman House has been experienced by Jews before, and not at Muslim hands.

As a self-liberated former christian, I can truthfully say that anti-semitism is inscribed in Christianity. It came to Islam in its current form via the Christians. Let us not forget this, and let us see what they intend to do about it within themselves.

December 4, 2008 8:21 PM | Report Offensive Comments

Shark1
excellent comments.

Frrepost- "Excellent idea sir, but do you really know what is being taught in mosques in this country? I highly doubt that messages of peace and coexistence are high on the agenda."

You doubt because you do not know.
Go to a mosque, listen to the message, and when you have even one experience to draw upon, THEN you can begin to form an informed opinion.

Your speculations (and figures by Pew) are incorrect.

First, it is a far stretch giving Arthur Waskow a podium on which to advance his far left agenda. Arthur comes from a fringe group who use a cover of religion to espouse their bizarre ideas. Don't take my word for it. Do the research and see who this guy is and what he stands for. Now that you have some background, let's deconstruct his failed arguments:

1) "Work to strengthen those in every religious community -- beginning with those in American mosques and Muslim organizations -- who oppose religious violence." Excellent idea sir, but do you really know what is being taught in mosques in this country? I highly doubt that messages of peace and coexistence are high on the agenda. The majority of mosques are sponsored by the Saudi Wahabists and subscribe to a radical anti-western philosophy. According to the Pew research group (hardly a right wing organization) some 40% of Muslims support violence in support of spreading their faith. Most so-called "mainstream" Muslim organizations have been loaded with terrorists and terrorist sympathizers including the Holy Land foundation, CAIR (an unindicted co-conspirator), and the Muslim Student Association. What we need to do is clear out these rats' nests of hate and intolerance.

2) "Treat terrorism as a crime to be policed and punished, not through "war' that breeds more terrorists by destroying civilian life." Another excellent idea that was implemented by the Clinton administration. This policy led to the Cole bombing, the bombings of our Embassies in Africa, and the WTC bombings. What Arthur fails to understand is that the terrorists are waging a war against Western ideals using Islam as a means of justification of their heinous actions. We have no beef with the religion of Islam, the problem is the other way around.

3)"Heal the political canker-sores (such as conflict over Kashmir and over Israel-Palestine) that have festered into motivations and excuses for terrorism." Arthur, you left a few others out - Darfur, Phillipines, Europe (especially Andalucia, and eastern Europe), ... What you don't understand is that Islamofascists use any excuse to hate us. Give 'em all of Israel and Kasmir and the violence won't stop. The naivete is so unbelievably astounding and demonstrates a level of ignorance that is so obscene there is no way that you could be a man of learning. The Islamofascists believe in the establishment of worldwide domination, the so-called Ummah whereby Islam rules over all mankind. Israel and Kasmir are mere distractions designed to play on Western guilt.

So there you have it - all of your "arguments" neatly demolished without any war or violence. I am extremely disappointed (though not surprised) that the Post would chose Arthur as it's voice of faith. Perhaps your readership would be better served by featuring an learned academic and historian like Bernard Lewis or Islamic-American Physician and activist, M. Zhudi Jasser?

In fact, this is also the problem with Cairo Declaration of "Human Rights" [sic] in Islam which also denies the inalienable right of human equality, but seeks to qualify human rights based on Sharia. This is why the Islamic supremacist nation of Saudi Arabia refused to sign the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). Islamic supremacists REJECT equality.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights#Islamic_criticism

In fact, this is also the problem with Cairo Declaration of "Human Rights" [sic] in Islam which also denies the inalienable right of human equality, but seeks to quality human rights based on Sharia. This is why the Islamic supremacist nation of Saudi Arabia refused to sign the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR). Islamic supremacists REJECT equality.

Spark1 states that "Muslims believe that all human beings were created equal in the sight of God." Your comment does NOT refute the documented statements of endless Islamic supremacists who are deny human equality. In fact, you also qualify human equality based on your ideological beliefs. What part of the idea that "all men (and women) are created equal" don't you understand?

Muslims believe that all human beings were created equal in the sight of God. None are born with the slur of shame on their faces, nor has anyone come into the world with a mantle of honors hung around his or her neck.

The one who is high and honored is the one who is God fearing and serves the people with good words and deeds. Distinctions of birth and glory of race are no criteria of greatness and honor. No consideration is given to one's pedigree or parentage.

The Islamic concept of well-being promotes brotherhood, insists on socio-economic justice and seeks to fulfill both the material and spiritual needs of all human beings. The reason for avoiding discriminations is that all humans are considered God's vicegerents on earth, hence fellow beings or brothers to each other. A brother can hardly be happy, if his fellow brothers are not leading a life of happiness and tranquility.

"O Mankind! We have created you from a male and female, and made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Verily, the most honorable of you in the sight of God is he who has most rightous among of you. Verily, God is All-Knowing, All-Aware."

With this verse, Islam declares equality among people, that is because Islam respect a human for being a human not for any other reason; Islam dose not distinguish between two races, or two groups of people, or between two colors, and the prophet Muhammad (PBUH) addressed the people signifying that concept during the last pilgrimage, saying: "O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous."

Give the people, where ever they are, in the world their right to equality and freedom and to their economic resources and there will be no bloodshed.

While WP is report on Waskow's calls for Obama to engage with Islamic supremacist ISNA, CAIR, MPAC groups, it is ignoring Islamic supremacist Imam Abdul Alim Musa at Towson University calling Martin Luther King, Jr. a coward for not being violent. Musa also has links to Black Panther supremacists as well. These are the type of supremacists that Waskow seeks USA to embrace.
http://media.www.thetowerlight.com/media/storage/paper957/news/2008/11/24/Opinion/Lecture.Demonstrated.Hate-3559238.shtml

Rabbi: The last thing we want Obama to do as a President is to emerge as a clone of Dubya and narrow further our country's strict separation of church and state. Frankly as a devout Christian and supporter of Obama, I am saddened that Obama has promised more support for faith-based programs which are being used by evangelical groups both domestically and overseas to wrap social services within their religious tenets and use those opportunities to proselytize. Also, please remember to include in your calls for inter-faith dialogs representatives of eastern faiths such as Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism, Bahai, Sikhism, Taoism etc. I have found that my exposure to those faiths has only deepened my Christian faith in helping me to love all my neighbors as myself and not see them as non-believers! The greatest mistake the preachers of Abrahmic faiths are making is to ignore the existence of over a billion or two people on this planet who do not follow the Abrahamic faiths and who are living examples of pluralistic embrace of other faiths and living without the millstone of having to convert others. Shalom!

Heal? Every terrorist for the past 35 years has been Muslim.A religion of peace....give me a break.A religion of hate and violence is more the truth and history proves it.

SPARK1 - Confronting supremacist organizations is not hate-mongering. In fact, it is confronting supremacist ideologies that ARE based on hate, just as Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. did.

You completely ignore that Mr. Waskow has a history of supporting the Black Panther supremacist organization, which the SPLC has listed as a "hate group." Is the SPLC a "hate-monger" also for confronting the Black Panther supremacist group?

Defending equality by defying supremacist organizations is an American responsibility. The inalienable human right that "all men are created equal" is defined in America's declaration of independence... and is inherent in the declaration of our identity as well.

SPARK1 - In America, our nation declared that equality was an inalienable human right. The words "all men are created equal" is hammered in marble in a monument in Washington DC. Untold American lives have been lost in refusing to compromise on the human rights of equality and liberty. America must never be "moderate" on equality, so why should we be "moderate" against supremacist groups? It is because we were not "moderate" against white supremacist groups that Barack Obama is president-elect today.

"Good intentions"?

The road to hell is paved with them.

Jeff of DC has the facts. Pay attention to what he's posting.

Those comments which push agenda of hatred against Islam, Quran and Muslims by few "professional" commentators on this forum cannot listen and endure the voices of such persons as Rabbi Arthur.
If you want act with prejudice and historic animosity then- the things will never be positive
You cannot generate love out of hate and war.

I am surprised if you people cannot agree to innocent suggestions of a person like Rabbi then how you can sit and talk to the muslims - not with the hardones but the one who are moderate and are living in US.

The hate you have for Islam Quran and Muslims is deep rooted but alas! do put the blame on them only.
Hate mongers are not less than terrorists.

It is very easy to critisize persons like rabbi but to put forward any positive suggestions difficult.

I must praise rabbi for his good intentions.

Jeff and Co

If you cannot listen to voices of moderation such as Rabbi Arthur Waskow and opposes good jestures towards moderate Islamic organizations then keeping on using the language of force.
Action has reaction which is equal but in opposite direction.

Who invited whom and when is nonsense when one wants to bury the hatchet.

Below, I have cut and pasted from another thread, a post which recommends a book that might be of interest to you:
_______________________________

Posted on December 6, 2008 12:55
Farnaz2 :

"The Legacy of Islamic Antisemitism: From Sacred Texts to Solemn History"

by Ibn Warraq and Andrew Bostom

Extensive, almost exhaustive, analysis of anti-Jewish racism in the Hadith and Sira of the Qur'an, and their centuries old applications, up to the present. Available for purchase everywhere, available at university and other libraries.

Several Quranic sentiments on Christians and Jews have already been posted on this blog, of course.
However, "The Legacy" is a thorough scholarly work that contextualizes Quranic antisemitism.
Moreover, unlike events depicted in the Tanakh, the Quranic depictions of violence against Jews have been verified as accurate by historians and archaeologists, whose findings are discussed in the book and are easily accessed on the web.

If you are to make statements that are at all credible, frankly, it behooves you to do so from an informed perspective.

Rabbi,

It has been asserted that you're information is highly inaccurate and that you are incorrect.

Both have been fully attested to by blogger AZIK whose racism includes a reference to Israeli Jews as "the jews," along with a host of despicable lies.

Additional evidence is provided by Jeff-In-DC who documents the nature of the organizations you praise.

It could do you significant good to follow up on the links of Jeff-In-DC.

marcedward1 - any questions now? America's identity is based on the inalienable human right that "all men are created equal," not supremacism of any kind.

Or do you not understand the political ideology of Islamic supremacism?
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/blog/imm-articles/090.html
http://unitedagainstislamicsupremacism.wordpress.com/2008/11/15/defy-islamic-supremacism/
http://unitedagainstislamicsupremacism.wordpress.com/2008/11/23/chris-carter-interviews-jeffrey-imm/

MPAC Spokeswoman Edina Lekovic support for OBL - see p. 2 of PDF
http://counterterrorismblog.org/2007/05/ms_lekovica_dozen_printing_mis.php
http://www.investigativeproject.org/redirect/1999-07_Al-Talib.pdf
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/blog/imm-articles/110.html#MPAC

Regarding CAIR:
http://www.investigativeproject.org/article/223
http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/archives/2008/10/fbi-cair-is-a-front-group-and.html
http://www.investigativeproject.org/profile/172

-- Hizb ut-Tahrir at 2007 ISNA convention
http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=26926_Homeland_Security_at_ISNA_Right_Next_to_Hizb_Ut-Tahrir&only
-- Hizb ut-Tahrir calls for global Islamic supremacist caliphate to rule Earth
http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2007/08/12/37764.html
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2007/05/02/do0203.xml

-- ISNA's Ingrid Mattson Attacking Christians
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2007/03/14/islamic_leader_urges_jews_be_wary_of_fundamentalists/
-- ISNA's Ingrid Mattson calling for negotiations with Islamic Supremacist Muslim Brotherhood
http://www.usmuslimengagement.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=15&Itemid=44#Mattson
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/blog/imm-articles/engagement_with_mb.html#engage_mb

ISNA history of Islamic supremacists speaking at its conventions:
-- 2008 Convention:
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/blog/imm-articles/094.html#ISNA_2008
-- 2007 Convention:
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/blog/imm-articles/042.html#ISNA_2007

marcedward1 - asks "'Jeff in DC' You make a lot of accusations. Why not back them up?".

Certainly. I thought all informed citizens were aware of this but I will be glad to provide proof.

ISNA and CAIR - unindicted co-conspirators in Holy Land Foundation terror finance trial - see pp. 8 (Section VII, item 3) and 5, item 11:
http://www.unitedstatesaction.com/documents/Attachment+A+(List+of+Unindicted+Co-conspirators).pdf

marcedward1 - asks "'Jeff in DC' You make a lot of accusations. Why not back them up?".

Regarding Arthur Waskow's support for the Black supremacist Black Panthers:
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/2184
http://www.frontpagemag.com/ARticles/Read.aspx?GUID=6FBC9D62-E14D-4026-83FE-92B1C7B4F708

Regarding the Black Panthers defined as a Hate Group by the Southern Poverty Leadership Council:
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/map/type.jsp?DT=3

Rabbi,

We all need to focus on the causes underlying terrorism-the latter is a symptom of a larger problem:occupation,oppression,apartheid,racism, starvation, collective punishment...etc.

It is going after accumulated grievances and solving them once and for all that will eradicate the evil of terrorism-otherwise we are fooling ourselves. Forty of the Mumbai murderd victims were Indian Muslims!!!

Rabbi,
U are lacking in objectivity when it comes to Palestine:I fully agree with U that Kashmiris should freely exercise their right to self-determination-all KAshmiris,Muslims and non-Muslims, whic India has rejected out of hand and maintained its military occupation of Kashmir for 60 years as "israel" has done.

The same Wilsonian Principle of self-determination should also apply to Palestine where the jews have been occupying Palestine for the past sixty years,had ethnically cleanesed 70% of the indigenous PAlestinian Arabs in 1947/8 thru systematic violence and terrorirism by jewish terrorist gangs: Haganah,Irgun(headed by Menahem Begin who lead the massacere of Dier YAssin_similair to Srebrenicha),Palmach and Stern.
Rahm Emenual's father was a terrorist member in Irgun and fled to Chicago as the Brits were after him in hot persuit.

Rabbi,
U must know the impossibility of setting up a viable PAlestinian state:the jews invaded and occupied 78% of Arab historic PAlestine in 1947/8 and the rest in 1967;since then the jews have devoured 60 % of the west bank/Gaza, so less than 10% of historic Palestine is left: mutilated land dotted by jewish settlements,"military" roads , cantoons and an apartheid wall-with no resources esepcially water for a would be Palestinian state; so where and how can a viable PAlestinian state be set up? and where will the Palestinian refugees live when they return to their stolen homes-who now number over six million and dewll in refugee camps two or three hours bus drive from Palestine??

The return of the Palestinian refugees is the core of the PAlestine question-no peace will ever prevail without their return.

Solution:one state secular democrcay for all on the American model-provided that jews who were admitted to Palestine illeaglly under British mandate at or after ww1, return to where they come from so as to allow the ethnically cleanesed Palestinians to return to their stolen homes whereever they may be in Plaestine as per UN 194 which the jews refuse as they refused self-determination for the PAlestinians-the same as India is doing to Kashmirs.

A racist apartheid puerly jewish state is clearly not viable-it only brought war, death and destruction to the entire Arab East.

No people in history ever accepted the invasion and occupation of their ancestoral homeland: the Palestinians are no exception.

Terrorism is evil esepcially state terrorism on which the "israel" was built and survived so far.

'Jeff in DC'
You make a lot of accusations.
Why not back them up?

Catcher
You are repeating tired old black propaganda. Your reading comprehension seems rather limited. I never said Palestinians had lived on those lands for thousands of years, I said centuries. If there had been no Palestinians in Palestine, why would the Zionists have had to kick them out?

game set and match ya tired old propagandist!

Jeff-In-DC and Catcher50,

Both of you are factually correct on all counts. However, Waskow is a bonafide rabbi, albeit "politically," of the Lerner type, which is to say that he is a naive dreamer. He wishes all to be well and full of possibility and somehow recreates reality so that it is. This historic and delusional "Jewish optimism" is distinct from a more realistic hopefulness that recognizes evil and realpolitik.

He is not a man to be commenting on public affairs, as he does not have the pragmatic capacity to grasp their implications.

Yo Observer
If you followed the news you'd know that Osama had a bit of a laugh, because it was only the pilots who knew the planes were on a one way trip. The hijackers who were doing crowd control had no idea.

You write
'The Palestinians were not driven anywhere by Israelis as you know, so I won't even bother with that.'

I am only bothered by your ignorance. Clearly you know nothing about the founding of Israel. Maybe you need to read more than one side of history. There are multiple accounts of the Palestinians slain and others fleeing for their lives.

As for Al Qaeda, isn't it ironic that their goal was to get the US out of Saudi Arabia, and Republican Bush gave in to their demands.

Jeff in DC is absolutely correct in his comments about "good" Islamic groups mentioned by Mr. Waskow (his credentials as a Rabbi are, in fact, more than a little dubious).

Waskow's solutions, which seem logical are, on second thought not only impractical, they are quite laughable and well beyond any reasonable ability of the President of the U.S.

As to MarcEdwards1's comments about the "Palestinians" living on those lands for thousands of years, he might well do a better job of research. Virtually none of those who claim to be Palestinians can trace their history in that area any further back than the end of the 19th century. Most were, essentially, the dregs of the Arab world who managed to find their way to that part of the Ottoman Empire, when the Jewish population began to increase and a devastated land began to be redeveloped.

Of course the same comments apply to unindicted co-conspirator CAIR, and MPAC's spokeswoman has a history of supporting Osama Bin Laden. Why should our president praise Islamic supremacists?

Mr. Waskow - no doubt you are aware of the history of the Islamic Society of North America (ISNA) that you praise. ISNA: (1) is an unindicted co-conspirator in the successful Holy Land Foundation terror finance trial, (2) has a history of speakers at ISNA conferences promoting Islamic supremacism and supporting terrorist organizations, (3) has a leader with a history of attacking Christians. ISNA has a long history of its members association with Islamic supremacism. ISNA conferences have included booths by the Hizb-ut Tahrir which calls for an Islamic supremacist caliphate for world domination. But you know all of this, Mr. Maskow. What many readers don't know about you is that you have a history of embracing supremacist organizations, such as your support for the Black supremacist organization, the Black Panthers. That is an organization that SPLC has listed as a "hate group" on its web site. But the WP wants America to believe that you should be providing guidance for our next president. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, it is because Americans confronted and rejected white supremacism, that Barack Obama is president today. We don't need you to take America backwards, Mr. Waskow. America needs to continue to be a nation based on the inalienable human right that "all men are created equal," not coddling and supporting supremacist groups and ideologies.

Your comments are no more welcome to a 21st century America than George Wallace's pro-supremacist commentaries. Take your support for supremacist groups elsewhere. Americans believe in equality and liberty, and we have a proven history that supremacism is only defeated by confronting the ideology.

see here lies the pitfall,,,,we all know the problems that have driven the world crazy, like it is today,,,but where is the will to act.
we know the palestine is a core of the event, but will isrealites have the courage to rise above themselves and say "OK for the peace of our people and the peace of the world , we will live side by side with palestinaians." and i think there is enough space for both of them.
will indians say the same" let us ask kashmiris if they like to live with us or not" this will elliminate both sources of upheavals in the contemprary history.
solve these two prolblems and bin ladin can travel all over the world and he will not find a single recruit. leave these two in place and killing terrorist here and there will be like shedding the leaves of a tree, always new ones budding.....

Respected Rabbi

Your suggestions are praise worthy.

Sir,You points are valid but the matter will not be solved just by visiting mosques in america by its president and by a multi-religion conference.
Definately the palestanian and kashmir problem should be solved as you said but Sir, depressed people need freedom to their acts and economy.

Sad to say but devil minded cartels are conspiring to tame and enslave the human beings.
Look at the "book confession of a economic hitman"
This attitude the us policy makers need to change.
Unfortunately US policy makers do learn but after its failures.

There can be no terror if the people are left to freely practice their creed and to be owners of their resources.

Rabbi,

I thought you might be interested in this moving post from Shoja, a Kerala Christian, on the slaughter of R. Gavriel, his Rivka who was six months pregnant, in front of their beaten two year old son brought to safety covered in his mother's blookd.

s_j_thaikattil :
I wish to offer my heartfelt condolences to all the family and friends of the Indian and non-Indian victims of Mumbai 26/11. May they all find the consolation, strength and support they need to come to terms with their loss and continue with their lives. May all those who are wounded and/or have been traumatized by the incident recover completely.

My special love and condolences to two year old Moshe Holtzberg, orphaned overnight in the terrorist attack but saved miraculously by the protective hand of God that came in the form of his Indian nanny, whose heart piercing cries for his mother are haunting. Jews have lived quiet lives in India for over twenty two CENTURIES (including in my native state of Kerala), without being discriminated against or persecuted by Indians of any religion, caste or creed. The small community of Jews in Mumbai lived among Indian Muslims and had a specially good relationship with them. The fact that a Jewish house in India, which offered accommodation and Kosher food to passing Jews visiting India, was specifically targeted, has left Indians of all religious persuasions shocked beyond belief.

There are many tales of sorrow and courage associated with the Mumbai 26/11 terrorist attack.

May God use this incident of mindless violence bring people of all nations of good will together to protect the innocent and to advance God's righteousness, His mercy and His peace in all places where hate filled ideologies make people blind to their higher purpose and universal calling. I extend my special gratefulness and thanks to the US, UK and Israeli, and my own now home country Australia, governments who have been prompt in their offer of active help and support to India and Indians in their time of confusion and grief. My grateful thanks also to all governments and peoples of various nations who have offered their moral support to India and Indians.

It is a stark reminder that we live in an interdependent world and we all need each other.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

December 4, 2008 7:24 PM

Really fighting about the past hasn't helped create any situation that has helped either side.

If we claim we stand up for free elections and freedom in democracies, we have to support the Palestinians when their new election comes up in January.

Marcedward

Wrong straight down the line. I'm afraid Al Quaeda terrorists like the rest of us know that if you fly your plane into a tower you will not be going home any time soon.

Hence by your logic, you must admire them. The Palestinians were not driven anywhere by Israelis as you know, so I won't even bother with that. As for Al Quaeda, they don't have the army, weapons, resources of the US, however. They come from lands made desperate by the US, which supported bloodthirsty dictatorships, even participated in the killing of semi-decent elected officials in some cases.

So, by your reasoning they're far more justified. The US promised Bin Laden whom it trained that it would live Saudi Arabia which the greedy US did not do. Hence the beginning. Then you have the US bi*ch Mubarak, loathed by the organizations in communication with Al Quaeda, the US destruction of Afghanistan which is seen all over the world by everyone but the US, destruction of Iraq, now in communication with Iran and Syria.

So, no one is more courageous, has fought with less than Al Quaed, by your logic. One has to hand it to the terrorists in Mumbai as well since Muslims in India are second class citizens.

Hope this helps. I tried to break it down into small bits of information.

Yo Observer
By your logic if you admire the US servicemen you also have to admire the Hitler's SS, because they both fought bravely in the service of their country.

Most of the hijackers in the 911 attacks didn't know it was a one way trip (hence little courage involved). I don't think the cause of the 911 terrorists (which I don't think is a legit cause) was well served by the attacks, however
1) The 9/11 attacks, which cost Osama about 1/2 million $ has so far cost the USA hundreds of billions in our response
2) Our Republican President, being an idiot, invaded the wrong country (Iraq) and did a terrible job managing the occupation of Afghanistan, so seemingly Osama certainly got the better of Bush.
3) Bombing and invading has not been a sensible of effective to what was a criminal problem. Illegal detention and torture of innocents has not served our country well (nor does it serve Israel well when they torture)

Of course the difference between the Palestinian people and the Al Qaeda terrorists is that the Palestinians were driven from their homes and towns at gunpoint. They have a legitimate cause. They have no army, no tanks, no planes, so their last resource is their bodies. Maybe if whatever coutry you lived in was invaded you'd cooperate with the invaders, or maybe you'd resist. I can admire people for resisting an occupation without admiring terrorists who attacked the USA on 911.
Hope that helps :-)

Marcedward writes:

but one can admire their courage and determination. From everything I read, the Palestinians will be fighting just as hard in 500 years. I have no idea how the situation will resolve itself, but I think the Israelis need to look beyong a military solution.

Then surely he must admire the courage and determination of the suicide pilots who crashed into the Twin Towers, etc. But he must realize that the Americans need to find another way other than invading and bombing.

edbyronadams writes
'There is no right or wrong about the Arab Israeli conflict.'

It's a complicated history to be sure. I think running the Palestinians out of their homes and towns at gunpoint was wrong. Was it so wrong that the land ought to be given back? The US government taking away land from native Americans and forcing them on reservations was wrong to, but I don't want to give the land back. Of course I don't have a couple of million native Americans living 10 miles down the road eager to blow me up.

'There are merely two peoples trying to lay claim to the same territory. Since before history, that has been settled one way.'

Yeah, but we're in the modern era. The Isrealis don't have the stomach to come up with a 'final solution' to that problem. Moreover the Israelis rely on billions of free US dollars to maintain the status quo, which doesn't help the US in our relations with Arab states.

'However, the Palestinians keep coming back like the Black Knight. Perhaps they should settle for the half a loaf'

Not sure the Palestinians are a 'black' or 'white' night. Maybe they 'should' settle for half a loaf, but they clearly won't.

svengerald writes
'Palestine is a Roman invention and the real Palestinians( Philistines) are no more.'

That sounds like wishful thinking. The Palestinians have been living on those lands for how many centuries?

'I am going to speculate that the Palestinians are to the middle east what the Roma are to Europe, a sad situation but not Israels fault'

The European and American Zionists who settled there are certainly at fault. The Jews in Palestine had been living in relative peace with Palestinian Christians and Muslims for centuries, no?

'maybe their brothers and imams should extend their help instead of encouraging them to violence'

Maybe if your country was invaded you'd be a colaborator and work with the invaders. I don't appreciate how the Palestinians fight their war, but one can admire their courage and determination. From everything I read, the Palestinians will be fighting just as hard in 500 years. I have no idea how the situation will resolve itself, but I think the Israelis need to look beyong a military solution.

I , much as you Rabbi, have hope. Some of the muslim organizations you list are actually supporters of violence, regardless of their words. Palestine is a Roman invention and the real Palestinians( Philistines) are no more. I am going to speculate that the Palestinians are to the middle east what the Roma are to Europe, a sad situation but not Israels fault, maybe their brothers and imams should extend their help instead of encouraging them to violence.

marcedward1,

There is no right or wrong about the Arab Israeli conflict. There are merely two peoples trying to lay claim to the same territory. Since before history, that has been settled one way. However, the Palestinians keep coming back like the Black Knight. Perhaps they should settle for the half a loaf offered no matter how you want to characterize it.

As far as the Dutch cartoons, spontaneous demonstrations, riots even, arose across the Islamic world as a result of their publication. When militants commit atrocites in their name, hardly a whimper arises from the same source.

Yo edbyronadams
The problems with the Palestinians have nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with a legitimate complaint. Certainly there has been terrible leadership on the Palestinian side (thank goodness Arafat is out of the way). However the Isrealis ought to stop killing Palestinian leaders if any good ones are to emerge. Expecting the Palestinians to lie down 'because if they are going to be raped they might was well enjoy it' is hardly realistic.

Not sure what your point is about Dutch cartoons. Islam doesn't have a structure like the RCC does.

As far as resolving Palestine and Kashmir, I would like to point out that it takes two to dance and the extraordinary effort the West took to stop the killing of Muslims in the Balkans engendered about zero goodwill.

Every effort must be made in the name of peace but those efforts need to be reciprocated. When the Ummah acts to curb their own in as forceful way as they act to decry Dutch cartoons, perhaps there is hope for peace.

Good recommendations all. President Obama has proven to be intelligent, strong willed, lucky, and an excellent strategist. Here's hoping he can make it work where Bush, Clinton and Carter failed.

Rabbi- from your lips to G-d's ear.