Isms Pollute the Mainstream

Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

Good site! I'll stay reading! Keep improving!

Innocence + *ism=trouble
Fear of nonexistence + *ism=trouble
Passivity + *ism=trouble
Unquestioning Faith + *ism=trouble
Pain + *ism=trouble
Fear (Hate, Bliss,...(EMOTION)) + *ism=trouble
Hunger (NEED) + *ism=trouble
Stupidity (AND intelligence) + *ism=trouble
Dominance + *ism=trouble
Psychosis + *ism=trouble
.....
Human mentation creates generalities in order to function by hiding details.
The unfortunate byproduct of this process is codification of overly simplistic philosophies, religions, ideologies, myths, and theories that purport to explain some or all aspects of the universe for spoon feeding to our puny brains. We probably wouldn't function without this process.

Inhumanity stems from the coupling of formalized lies ("isms") along with the various states of being partially outlined above.

Ever wonder if other intelligent beings have these issues?

Lincoln:

What promise do we have that the Pope won't suddenly declare a holy war? What promise do we have that Islam won't declare open season on all non-Muslims? I mean, these are distinct possibilities considering the history of both religions. Historically, we have evidence that these religions feel compelled to convert through force, something Mormons have never done. (Please see Article of Faith 12.)

"Promising 10 virgins to righteous Mormon men."

You take liberties with your interpretation of D&C 132:62. This scripture does NOT promise ten virgins to Mormon men. I'm sorry, please read it again. The problem I see here is that of the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. Historically speaking -- since your opinions and statements are drawn so easily from the relatively young history of the LDS church -- Judaism and by default, Christianity, BOTH have a history of polygamy. Why is it so easy for Christians and Jews to dismiss the many wives of David and Solomon? I read the Old Testament and find much depravity and immorality. What about Ruth and Boaz? It's easier for mainstream Christians to dismiss the immorality of their beloved prophets and, pretty much the entire Old Testament, because of time and space. Yes, this appears to me to be a case of hypocrisy. What other word is there for it? What other glaring difference is there other than the distinction of time and space?

Since you find ammunition with the Edmunds-Tucker Act, I'll remind you that while the rest of the nation was busy denying women their full rights of citizenship and personhood by not allowing them to vote, Utah had allowed women this right in 1870, which the federal government took away in 1887.

"It is logical to conclude that many Mormons feel it is their duty to convert everyone to Mormonism. This concept is inherently offensive to many people who simply want to be considered genuine friends, without being viewed as a potential 'convert baptism' in the future."

I think it's safe to say that MOST Mormons don't feel it's their duty to convert people. Most Mormons are average people with concerns of their own, with families to care for, with aging parents they must take care of, with dogs and cats, with friends who are not Mormon, with regular jobs, with televisions in their homes and bills to pay. If your contact is limited to one Mormon who has been ebullient and kind to you, it's probably safe to say you believe somehow this Mormon wants to convert you.

Living in the south I have been asked repeatedly what church I go to. Is it safe to assume that these people secretly hope I might be a potential convert to whatever church they go to? I think so. Then I'm left to wonder, are they being kind simply because they want me to join their church? Or is it simply kindness?

"Will the leadership ever encourage teaching true Mormon church history instead of a whitewashed version through its correlated lesson materials?"

And by "true Mormon church history," what exactly do you mean? Do other Christian denominations spend hours of lesson time discussing the fine details of how Methodism developed? Or Lutheranism? Do Catholic churches talk and talk about the Crusades and the schism and all the embarrassing details that make me think, "Hmm, doesn't sound so inspired, does it? It sounds like a bunch of squabbling children."

"Many Mormon's missionary zeal would diminish to proper levels if they fully understood the truly tenuous nature of Mormonism’s truth claims, from a historic perspective."

I think you'd be very surprised about how many Mormon missionaries know the history of the Mormon church. And what does that mean, anyway, "from a historic perspective?" And what's a "proper level." Is there a proper level to zeal, like a proper listening level? Is that 85 decibels, this proper level? The Mormon church has nothing to cover up. The lesson manuals don't need to cover all the "true Mormon church history" because it's everywhere, all the time. Mormons are constantly bombarded with it. Mormons believe regardless of whether or not the media is kind, whether or not other religions care to call Mormons, Christians. Mormons know they are Christian whether or not the rest of the world's religions care to call them Christian.

"Before Mormonism is treated with the full faith and respect that other religions receive, it must demonstrate that it is deserving of such respect."

My question is, what religions are treated with faith and respect? I can't think of one. Except maybe Islam, and that is not faith, that's fear. The only Christian love I have seen in the south is pious attitudes, holier than thou treatment, I-deserve-free-things-because-I'm-Christian-and-I'm-on-God's-errand, a lot of news coverage for any service project, a lot of praying on mountaintops where everyone can see how holy Christians are. A lot of crosses, but a lot of strip clubs and porn shops, more than should exist in a largely Baptist and Christian area, and a lot of depravity. Does that deserve my respect? I don't think so.

As for Professor Stevens-Arroyo's essay, I think Alex responded best.

Arroyo's characterization of Joseph Smith is so one-dimensional that it's clear he's quite ignorant of Mormon history. For someone with his credentials, Arroyo certainly hasn't done his homework.

Andrew Skinner says this in his posting: The core doctrines of the LDS faith have always been grounded in the divinity of Jesus Christ, our conviction that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah--the only way or means by which any of us can be ransomed from sin, death, hell, the devil, sorrow, and tribulation; and in the literal, bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ--by which all human beings, good or bad, will be resurrected. Anthony you want to know why if MormonISM is questionable, how can it produce so many Mormons who are such good people? Mr. Skinner has provided the answer to that question. It is because as Skinner says the core belief is in the divinity of Jesus and they are ultimately followers of Jesus. You can be off on your doctrine but if you repent, are focused on Christ and honestly confess his divinity, then the fruits will be there. We are fallible human beings and nobody can profess to be totally accurate on doctrine but this does not mean that it is not important to strive to mature and gain a better picture of the truth. I agree that perhaps MormonISM misses the mark more than most but they are still focused on Christ and they believe in him. Believing in Christ and acknowledging his divinity is the first step and this will always produce fruit even if you don't hit the bullseye on doctrine. Thank you Mr. Skinner for making such a focused statement about the LDS core beliefs as I had always wondered like Anthony how there was so much good fruit but now I understand.

John Smith claims to have seen both Jesus and God in 18oo's i9n the woods.

Re-writing the bible to create the outcome's Mr. Smith desired is just that, an apparant miracle and vision of the future created in the mind of John Smith, played out by many others today.

Mormons are still competing for that title of prophet; and that is Mormonism in my eyes!

I do not have anything against the Mormon people. My mother joined the church when I was 12 but stopped going when they called every year demanding 10 percent of my step-dads income be tithed to them. I am a believer in christianity but do not attend the Mormon church because the bible does state to not go by any other book and they have the book of Mormon and Pearl of Great Price. I am not judging them but it was not right for me personally.

"The visions of Joseph Smith who founded Mormonism, cannot be seriously compared for substance or authenticity with the Resurrection of Jesus, the experiences of mystics like St. Teresa of Ávila . . ."

Interestingly, there's exactly the same amount of evidence for Jesus' resurrection and Smith's vision - they're in a book. That currently more people believe one, ahem, divine book than the other apparently makes one story fact and the other fiction.

Anthony,
I am insulted by your narrow minded comments.

Hello Norrie Hoyt:)

Prickly? What am I? A porcupine? I never made love very, very carefully with my husband.

Has it ever occured to you that I am also trying out various tones and modes of writing styles in English here in On Faith threads? Just to get the rut out of writing and reading dry reports. I leave whatever I've learned in the universities out of the door when I write my On Faith posts. Admittedly, my impatience do show with regard to some posts.

We are supposed to be prickly and defensive, (Indonesians and Malaysians). Actually, we accused each other of that. Some western writers wrote it up as being "sensitive" and Indonesian or Malaysian "sensitivities" on certain issues. Indonesians and Malaysians seems to have a lot of sensitivities in their personal and public life. It is cultural actually. One can never say what one really thinks so one would not offend. Elliptical and allusive speech is common.

My husband and I have been joshing about our respective countries and peoples for years now. My fellow Indonesians do burn up the Malaysian flags and tried to trash the Malaysian Embassy in Jakarta when there are bilateral disputes. But Malaysians thought that was silly and shrugged it off.

Indonesia is large and populous, some 225 million people, with armed conflicts from Acheh to Celebes to West Irian. And the Bali bombings. Jemaah Islamiyah's handiworks. Muslims killing Muslims. Muslims killing non-Muslims and vice-versa.

We are wary and weary of Muslim fanatics, bigots and terrorists. They kill us too. A friend was killed in a departmental store bombing in Jakarta several years ago. In both Indonesia and Malaysia, you will find Muslims of every stripes as termed by the west, all competing for the mythical "soul of Islam". More accurate to say for the minds and hearts of Muslims.

I live in a region of oppressive government (Burma), military imposed government (Thailand), staidly suppressive of opposition government(Singapore), messy government (Philippines), communist government (Vietnam), and government trying to recover their countries from war and genocide (Cambodia and Laos).

And I don't have bring up here the Middle East, the Indian subcontinent and Northeast Asia. Travelling here and there makes me too, too aware of the poverty of many, the dire state of women (be they Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists). Social, economic and political inequity and oppression based on race, gender or religion is everywhere in Asia, Central Asia, Latin America, Africa and the Middle East. And conflicts, conflicts and more conflicts.

I was in London and New York in the first two weeks of April recently. Pardon me if I never thought of going to Vermont to get some maple syrup from Calvin Coolidge types. The bookshops, theatres, museums and restuarants of both cities kept me quite occupied when I'm free.

Thank you for your gracious invitation to visit the Great State of Vermont. I will visit it again the next time I go to the States. To take photos, buy t-shirts, baseball caps and drop a lot of dollars on knick knacks, bric bracs to boost the tourism sector of Vermont of course.

Best regards and have a nice weekend. I'm going to the beach with my family.

once moses thought he knew better than any other as he was the prophet ,, gad sent a good man who was not a prophet but he knews better than moses .this was in the very ancient time and it will be for ever .. there must be good mens ,believe on god and do good // as it is the base of the religion or any religion .. god still presented and good men will be presented also and prophets are facts also

Isms Pollute the Mainstream?

You mean, like baptism? Last I heard, it was a good thing to be baptized and come unto Christ.

Jihadist,

I hope you didn't misunderstand what I wrote about Malaysia. I said I was ignorant of the country except for its judicial punishments, was sure that it had many virtues, and that I was delighted that you like it so much and are happy there.

I think that the U.S. is a great country, even though many states and the federal government have the death penalty. That's because I know so much more about the U.S. than merely its death penalty, while all I know about Malaysia are its hangings and floggings. If I knew more I could put things in perspective.

I did note that, from Malaysia's viewpoint, it was bad PR that an educated American only knew of its (to me, babarous) punishments, and that it might want to think about how to change that negative fact.

You need to understand my perspective: as a child I'd imagine how it would be to be executed and was horrified. As chairman of the Judiciary Committee of Vermont's House of Representatives, when a bill was introduced to reinstitute the death penalty, I was obsessed for weeks about what I'd say when the bill was debated.

I spilled my guts in that floor debate and was successful in blocking the reestablishment of executions here. A reporter recorded that speech and still plays it many years later to those who have never heard it. I guess he thinks it was something special.

But let's turn to happier topics.

When are you going to visit us here in Vermont?

Among our many virtues is the fact that Vermont is, along with Bermuda, a world leader in attracting captive insurance companies. A business opportunity, perhaps?

I think you'd find Vermont to be exotic (from your point of view), historically interesting, and pleasant.

As always,

Best wishes to you (and Malaysia).

And, please, don't be prickly!

Apostate to the Rescue Again

Though an Ex-Mormon, I think the Professor is quite a bit over the top here in his criticisms of Mormonism.

To criticise Mormon beliefs as Strange,
and to refer to the resurrection as a counter example of a miracle that is well established and, I presume, Not Strange,

is,
what else can I say,
Strange.

All religions have supernatural beliefs that are strange to non-believers (I was going to say Sane People, but I don't want to be a smarty-pants).

Besides, my pretty sand Brother (not William) is still a practicing Mormon.

Hello Norrie Hoyt

True on capital and corporal punishment in Malaysia re drug traffickers. Like in Singapore and Thailand.

Would you consider rapists be given 100 lashes of caning instead of 6 and damn the physical and psychological scars on them for that if we are to ignore the psychological scars on rape victims?

As for drug traffickers, sadly, they know the punishment for their offence, but do it anyway for money and ignore the effect of their activities on themselves and others. Drugs is a major problem in the region and HIV/AIDs is rising due to drugs abuse.

Malaysia is going to be 50 years old as a nation this year. So many faults and flaws like all developing countries. And Malaysians are very proud and prickly people. They can criticize themselves, but God help others who criticized them.

They have much to be proud of, compared to other Asian, African and Middle East states in economic and social development. I am relieved to be living in a country not wrecked by violence and armed conflicts. My beloved Indonesia is scarred by that.

I was suprised that for a country with 25 million, Malaysia is the US tenth largest trading partner, and ranked 19th in the world as a trading nation. Makes Indonesia, my own country envious, as Malaysia has no sustained armed conflicts like Indonesia and its other neighbours.

I suppose, in falling in love and marrying my husband, I fell in love with his country too. For those willing to look beyond headlines, Malaysia is a very surprising, stable, prospering and open country.

Being in Malaysia, working in the new, exciting and developing Islamic financial services sector, and in my free time with the women's NGO's, opened me up mentally and spiritually that never happened when I was in Indonesia.

Malaysian Muslims also seem more competitive and forward looking than Indonesian Muslims, and they never burn up the streets and embassies in protest and hardly resort to violence on differences.

And best of all, being a former British colony, English is widely spoken in Malaysia and so, so many books in English readily and easily available.

But I like to tell my husband that Indonesia is the biggest democratic country in the Muslim world with the most pontential. His retort - size isn't everything, and Brazil is said to have potential since the sixties. Hmmmmhhh...like I said, Malaysians are pround and prickly people.

All the best

The Mormon church should be regarded with as much respect as any other church in the United States. In theory this is a true statement, yet on occasion, Mormon church leaders have encouraged the membership to disobey federal laws, such as the Supreme Court decision in Reynolds and the Edmunds/Tucker Act. Other religious leaders have not instructed their membership to directly disobey federal statutes and Supreme Court decisions. That is why many U.S. citizens would be concerned that Mormon Church President Hinckley could instruct the church membership to disobey federal laws again. Brigham Young and John Taylor were notorious for advocating disobedience to the "laws of men." This historic friction between the United States and a Mormon hierarchy with theocratic tendencies, has been an issue from the beginnings of Mormonism. I do not have any evidence that other religions have waged war against the United States in word and in deed, as the Mormon church has done in the past. Theoretically, President Hinckley could receive a new revelation to disobey the rule of law, and encourage the practice of polygamy again. This is a possibility under the current theological beliefs in Mormonism, especially with Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 remaining in full force. The Doctrine and Covenants are binding scripture in Mormonism, and Section 132 authorizes the practice of plural marriage, promising 10 virgins to righteous Mormon men. Given the doctrine of modern revelation, a distinct possibility exists that Mormon directives could take precedent over Federal law, as occurred in the past. What assurance does the U.S. public have that the Mormon church will not disobey laws in the future? A primary concern regarding Mormonism, is whether Mormons will choose to obey the Prophet or the laws of the United States should a conflict occur. This is a troubling issue, which has not been fully resolved.

Are Mormons afforded the same rights and privileges under the Constitution as other religions? Legally, of course they are. But on an individual basis, it is unclear whether Mormons respect other people‘s right of religious freedom. This is an interpersonal issue that is influenced by the institutional directives of the Mormon church. It rests on the ability of the church membership to make genuine friendships with people of other faiths, without the ulterior motive of converting them to Mormonism. Is it possible for a Mormon to make friends with a member of another religion, without the ulterior motive of someday converting that person to Mormonism? Yes, of course. But after watching the antics of Mormon missionaries on the PBS special, it is logical to conclude that many Mormons feel it is their duty to convert everyone to Mormonism. This concept is inherently offensive to many people who simply want to be considered genuine friends, without being viewed as a potential "convert baptism" in the future. Many creeds believe that they have the exclusive truth, not just Mormons. Many others are atheist or agnostic. Many other religions have developed a true tolerance for all humanity and do not feel the overbearing necessity of converting them to their own faith. Will Mormons ever be able to be genuine friends with non-Mormons without having the ulterior motive of conversion? This is a fair question, given the obvious harrassment of average citizens that was demonstrated by Mormon missionaries during the missionary segment of the PBS Frontline documentary. Maybe the reason Mormonism has not truly entered the mainstream yet, is that many people conclude, fairly or unfairly, that mormons are only interested in outside contact to the extent that they are fulfilling their duty as missionaries. This would be extremely shallow, superficial, and limiting, and would define Mormons as nothing more than scripted automatons. Mormons need to learn to have genuine friendships with people from outside their religion, on a wider scale. It is insulting to members of other faiths and non-believers, that Mormons believe they possess the exclusive truths of nature, when there is ample evidence in the history of the Mormon church, that it has just as many flaws (if not more) as any of the other faiths. Will the leadership ever encourage teaching true Mormon church history instead of a whitewashed version through its correlated lesson materials? Many Mormon's missionary zeal would diminish to proper levels if they fully understood the truly tenuous nature of Mormonism’s truth claims, from a historic perspective.

Before Mormonism is treated with the full faith and respect that other religions receive, it must demonstrate that it is deserving of such respect. The first step toward that respect would be a shift in emphasis away from converting every human being on the planet to Mormonism, toward loving every human being on the planet with the true Christian love, the love that Mormonism already professes to have. This shift will need to be generated from the upper levels of the Mormon church leadership structure. Until that happens on a broad scale, many will continue to view Mormonism collectively as a second-class religion.

Some of my best friends are "-isms". Deism. Pantheism. Pandeism. Panentheism. If I recall correctly, Panentheism is about the same age as Mormonism, and Pandeism is only a few years younger, and yet today these are the "cutting edge" of religious theory. Go figure!

Some of my best friends are "-isms". Deism. Pantheism. Pandeism. Panentheism. If I recall correctly, Panentheism is about the same age as Mormonism, and Pandeism is only a few years younger, and yet today these are the "cutting edge" of religious theory. Go figure!

Jihadist,

I just caught up with your post of yesterday. It's great to hear from you and I'm glad you like Malaysia so much.

I really know next to nothing about Malaysia. I'm sure it has many virtues but everything I know about it is negative: Malaysia hangs young drug transporters who should be allowed to live. Malaysia also savagely canes offenders, inflicting grievous physical and psychological wounds that last a lifetime along with the permanent physical scarring.

If an educated American can only summon up those two associations to the word "Malaysia", perhaps the country should consider changing its ways.

But this has nothing to to with your and my conversations here.

I'd never consider visiting Malaysia for fear that a nervous drug mule would slip some illicit drug into my bag at the airport and I'd end up on Malaysia's gallows.

You, however, are free to visit us in Vermont any time. We'll give you a grand welcome! And you'll only have to fear ICE (immigration and customs enforcement) and the Bush administration (on account of your religion), not your being framed into the death penalty.

I'm still trying to figure out how much time to spend at On Faith, but I always look forward to your posts and our discussions.

Best as always.

it looks like this is breaking down into a my religion is better than your religion. these things are subject to internal beliefs.
the only thing that we can control is the way the religion operates in the world.

To Mary Cunningham. Let's look at a letter written by Paul found in 1 Corinthians 15:29. It reads "Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Mormons don't baptize "dead people". They perform baptisms (by proxy) as a saving ordinance for those who have died without proper baptism. Just as Paul preached and found in the bible. Now that doesn't seem so "ridiculous" does it?

"or the inspirations of Muhammad, Buddha, Luther, Wesley – just to name a few. Rather, Smith is a prophet with feet of clay"
exactly what give you the power to determine who is honest and an actual messenger for god.
why does moho have inspirations? the man was living off an older woman - we have a word for that. he married at least one 6 year old and had sex with her by 9.
when he had a problem he went to bed and in the morning had an answer, one which always lined his pockets or increased his power, and it always came from god in his sleep. yea right.
and god inspired him to say this?:
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators [hindus] shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority.

The analysis by panelist Martin Marty (Professor emeritus, University of Chicago) is much better. Objective, insightful, not sensationalized...what we hope for from our academics.

Oh great... The anti-capitalist, anti-imperialist interpretation of the history of the Mormon church. Ha ha ha ha! And with a Catholic, anti-Protestant twist. Very funny! What's next, the Freudian interpretation? This is indicative of a problem with so much of modern academic criticism. Someone wrote of Harold Bloom (in Wikipedia, sorry), "His position, stated simply, is that politics have no place in literary criticism: a feminist or Marxist reading of Hamlet, for example, would tell us something about feminism and Marxism but nothing about Hamlet itself, it being so universal." The same applies here. Sounds like the professor is forcing his subject into his worldview, instead of examining the subject as it is (the third paragraph of his comment being the best example). It's like trying to observe a 60 Hz signal through a 10 Hz low-pass filter - you'll end up with massive aliasing and what you observe will look nothing like the original signal. The professor mentions Buddha. He would do well to let Zen inform his analysis, and without preconceptions, while letting go of the judging mind, really observe. If he wants to be critical of the Western tradition, don't go only half way. Keep going and leave behind the ridiculously biased methods of modern Western academic literary, historical, and political criticism.

rebecca - take a break. if you read the article its not mormans this fool hates, its the white man. anything white is bad.
so take it easy rebecca - every religion has the right to say what it believes and as long as that does not include forced conversions and/or killing those of other religions, its fine by me and most other religions.

Dear Anthony,
I am surprised to read your credentials. Your statements on Joseph Smith were unfounded lies. Seems to me learned men of your sort would know how to do research correctly. If you were researching Fords would you read what Chevrolet had to say? It is so interesting that so many so-called Christians attack us and our prophets. Is that what Christ taught? I think the unknowing and jealousy of people drives the hate and bitterness. I am so surprised that people aren't turned off by their pastor, preacher, neighbor slamming another faith. That sounds like they feel threatened and do not want their church members listening or reading others' doctrine to find out for themselves.

In response to Prof. Stevens naive and uneducated comment, "Nothing much came from Mormonism except Salt Lake City and very large families."

Let's walk thru Mormonism accomplishments for a few moments, shall we?

* Took a Mississippi River swamp and turned it into a city known as Nauvoo, Illinois. At its height in 1845-46, Nauvoo was listed among the 20 largest cities in the nation, and the largest city in Illinois, even topping Chicago, before they were forced to leave the state by mobs, fueled by an Extermination Order signed by Illinois Governor Lilburn Boggs.

* Runs MTCs (Missionary Training Centers) worldwide that are sourced by many corporations due to their highly regarded language training processes.

* Runs the top beef ranch in the world, Deseret Cattle & Citrus Ranch (Orlando, Fla.), which covers 312,000 acres, and has a value topping $858 million.

* Runs the largest production company of nuts in America, AgReserves, Inc.

* Runs the country's 14th largest radio chain, Bonneville International Corp.

* Runs Beneficial Life Insurance, Co. with assets of $1.6 billion.

* Runs BYU, BYU-Hawaii, BYU-Idaho, and BYU-Jerusalem. BYU (Provo, Ut) alone offers courses in 11 colleges consisting of 188 bachelor's degree academic programs, 66 master's degrees, and 25 doctorates and juris doctorates programs.In 2005-06 academic school year, BYU awarded 8,261 undergraduate and graduate degrees.

* Maintains close to 60,000 full-time missionaries (paid at each missionary's own expense) all over the world that provide community service and teach family strengthening principles.

* Is dubbed by Time Magazine as America's most prosperous religion. If the Mormon Chruch were a corporation, their yearly revenue would place it midway through the Fortune 500, a little below Union Carbide and the Paine Webber Group, but bigger than Nike and the Gap, with a minimum of $30 billion in assets and annual gross income of $6 billion.

This list just barely touches the surface - So before you go spouting off at the cuff, I advise that you do your homework next time.

AaronW.

" The visions of Joseph Smith who founded Mormonism, cannot be seriously compared for substance or authenticity with the Resurrection of Jesus, the experiences of mystics like St. Teresa of Ávila, or the inspirations of Muhammad, Buddha, Luther, Wesley – just to name a few."

Why can't they be of substance? It seems as though the others were given a try, why couldn't you give Joseph Smith a try? Are you afraid its true?

“Hence, what is yet to come for Mormonism may be more interesting than what has
already taken place.”

Well stated and yet not addressed by your respondents. With the growing concern for
global warming, there is a rift developing between some segments in America. As mankind learns more about diseases, our bodies and adjusts to the lessened importance of distance due to ever new advances in communication, it will be interesting to watch how churches must
find a way adapt and yet not undermine their claims to revelation and their “sacred”
traditions. As the claimed miracles grow ever distant and no new ones can be verified,
what will replace the mystery as a means of keeping their message vague yet applicable?
Clever marketing has been working, but it has tended to replace theology and enshrine
community as the mission of the churches. That is not a criticism as it has diminished wars over arcane and anachronistic dogmas as is evident with LDS in particular and Christianity in general.

While "it is the nature and disposition of almost all men . . . to exercise unrighteous dominion," Joseph Smith chose instead to lead "by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned."1 "I love your soul," he said to a friend in 1833, "and the souls of the children of men, and pray and do all I can for the salvation of all."2 Years later, Joseph reaffirmed, "My heart is large enough for all men."3

"The nearer we get to our heavenly Father," Joseph told the Relief Society sisters, "the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs."4

Joseph Smith's love for the people grew out of his service to them. "It is a time-honored adage," he taught, "that love begets love. Let us pour forth love—show forth our kindness unto all mankind, and the Lord will reward us with everlasting increase."

That friendship which intelligent beings would accept as sincere must arise from love, and that love grows out of virtue, which is as much a part of religion as light is a part of Jehovah.
History of the Church, 6:73.

Wise men ought to have understanding enough to conquer men with kindness. "A soft answer turneth away wrath," says the wise man; and it will be greatly to the credit of the Latter-day Saints to show the love of God, by now kindly treating those who may have, in an unconscious moment, done wrong; for truly said Jesus, Pray for thine enemies.
History of the Church, 6:219; paragraph divisions altered.

If we would secure and cultivate the love of others, we must love others, even our enemies as well as friends. . . . [People] ask, "Why is it this babbler gains so many followers, and retains them?" I answer, It is because I possess the principle of love. All I can offer the world is a good heart and a good hand.
History of the Church, 5:498; paragraph divisions altered.

Andrew Workman, Early Member of the Church

I first saw the Prophet Joseph in May, 1842. . . . A few days after this I was at Joseph's house. Several men were sitting on the fence. Joseph came out and spoke to us all. A man came and said that a poor brother who lived out some distance from town had had his house burned down the night before. Nearly all of the men said they felt sorry for the man. Joseph his hand in his pocket, took out five dollars and said: "I feel sorry for this brother to the amount of five dollars. How much do you all feel sorry?"
Juvenile Instructor, Oct. 15, 1892, 641.

What impression did Joseph Smith make on people who were not members of the Church?

Responses varied, of course, but many were favorably impressed. Peter H. Burnett, Joseph's lawyer in Missouri and later governor of California, wrote of him: "He was much more than an ordinary man. He possessed the most indomitable perseverance. . . . His manner was so earnest, and apparently so candid, that you could not but be interested. There was a kind, familiar look about him, that pleased you. He was very courteous in discussion, . . . [and] had due deference to your feelings. . . . I saw him out among the crowd [who had been his enemies], conversing freely with every one, and seeming to be perfectly at ease. In the short space of five days he had managed so to mollify his enemies that he could go unprotected among them without the slightest danger" (An Old California Pioneer [1946], 40).

While "it is the nature and disposition of almost all men . . . to exercise unrighteous dominion," Joseph Smith chose instead to lead "by persuasion, by long-suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned."1 "I love your soul," he said to a friend in 1833, "and the souls of the children of men, and pray and do all I can for the salvation of all."2 Years later, Joseph reaffirmed, "My heart is large enough for all men."3

"The nearer we get to our heavenly Father," Joseph told the Relief Society sisters, "the more we are disposed to look with compassion on perishing souls; we feel that we want to take them upon our shoulders, and cast their sins behind our backs."4

Joseph Smith's love for the people grew out of his service to them. "It is a time-honored adage," he taught, "that love begets love. Let us pour forth love—show forth our kindness unto all mankind, and the Lord will reward us with everlasting increase."

That friendship which intelligent beings would accept as sincere must arise from love, and that love grows out of virtue, which is as much a part of religion as light is a part of Jehovah.
History of the Church, 6:73.

Wise men ought to have understanding enough to conquer men with kindness. "A soft answer turneth away wrath," says the wise man; and it will be greatly to the credit of the Latter-day Saints to show the love of God, by now kindly treating those who may have, in an unconscious moment, done wrong; for truly said Jesus, Pray for thine enemies.
History of the Church, 6:219; paragraph divisions altered.

If we would secure and cultivate the love of others, we must love others, even our enemies as well as friends. . . . [People] ask, "Why is it this babbler gains so many followers, and retains them?" I answer, It is because I possess the principle of love. All I can offer the world is a good heart and a good hand.
History of the Church, 5:498; paragraph divisions altered.

Andrew Workman, Early Member of the Church

I first saw the Prophet Joseph in May, 1842. . . . A few days after this I was at Joseph's house. Several men were sitting on the fence. Joseph came out and spoke to us all. A man came and said that a poor brother who lived out some distance from town had had his house burned down the night before. Nearly all of the men said they felt sorry for the man. Joseph his hand in his pocket, took out five dollars and said: "I feel sorry for this brother to the amount of five dollars. How much do you all feel sorry?"
Juvenile Instructor, Oct. 15, 1892, 641.

What impression did Joseph Smith make on people who were not members of the Church?

Responses varied, of course, but many were favorably impressed. Peter H. Burnett, Joseph's lawyer in Missouri and later governor of California, wrote of him: "He was much more than an ordinary man. He possessed the most indomitable perseverance. . . . His manner was so earnest, and apparently so candid, that you could not but be interested. There was a kind, familiar look about him, that pleased you. He was very courteous in discussion, . . . [and] had due deference to your feelings. . . . I saw him out among the crowd [who had been his enemies], conversing freely with every one, and seeming to be perfectly at ease. In the short space of five days he had managed so to mollify his enemies that he could go unprotected among them without the slightest danger" (An Old California Pioneer [1946], 40).

Mary Cunningham

You noted : "Secondly,just because there are good people who are Mormons, it doesn't follow that Mormonism is a good religion. There are good people who are Wiccans, radical Islamists, and Shining Path guerillas. Even Stalin loved his mother! (Or was it his daughter?)"

It was Stalin's daughter. He loved his wife too.

Pope John Paul II, Mother Teresa and you do make Catholics seem better for me, to me. Looks like all three of you, among other Catholics, do follows the tenets of your faith that is good. I am reserving my views on Pope Benedict as he do have interesting views on Jews, Buddhists and Muslims when he was Cardinal Ratzinger.

About "strangeness and in parts, ridiculous" on other faiths, some parts of Catholic rites do also seem puzzling to other believers. It is normal for many believers of any faith not see anything strange and ridiculous in their dogmas and practices.

Norrie Hoyt

I've been missing you! Now I know why. I read On Faith after my dawn prayers before getting to work. Sometimes during lunchtime when I have nothing else better to do. Time zone differences. I was never really interested in other faiths and beliefs until I moved to Kuala Lumpur from Jakarta, Indonesia, after marrying my Malaysian husband. Malaysia is a much more multi-cultural, multi-ethnic, multi-religious country than Indonesia with all the attendant tensions and frictions on issues related to race and religion as reflected in these On Faith threads. I must say I love multifaceted and complex Malaysia a lot.

Mary Cunningham,

Mary, it's nice to see you back here. I'm cutting back the time I spend here but I imagine we may still have discussions. I've also mellowed. I'm no longer continuously in vociferous attack mode.

I'm posting here to point out that Joseph Smith and I have two things in common:

(1) We both lived for a time on Upper Turnpike Road in Norwich, Vermont (not at the same time, however).

(2) You have similar opinions about Joseph's and my thinking: "pretty strange, in parts ridiculous--."

Best wishes.

Ditto with John D. This blog contends that Mormons separated themselves out of an elitist, utopian sense of Christianity. In reality, Mormons attempted to settle peacefully in repeated locations, but their penchant for industry and hard work built such finery that it threatened surrounding residents and led to the Mormons' eventual and violent expulsion.

This blog is the fodder of the under- and ill-informed. Like so many who misunderstand the Mormons, it would appear you chose to become offended by surrounding rumors before getting to the true heart of your topic.

"In a sense, Mormonism stood out from American Protestantism because it exceeded the “American” part of American Protestantism. For a time, Mormons rejected even the United States because it was not as triumphalistically "American" as they were."

They were actually driven out by the United States because they were thought to be not American enough.

"Compared to Christianity or other world religions, Mormonism has an uncertain birthright. I do not subscribe to the superficiality that places all religious origins outside history and in the category of myth. The visions of Joseph Smith who founded Mormonism, cannot be seriously compared for substance or authenticity with the Resurrection of Jesus, the experiences of mystics like St. Teresa of Ávila, or the inspirations of Muhammad, Buddha, Luther, Wesley – just to name a few. Rather, Smith is a prophet with feet of clay. His money-grubbing, womanizing, and conveniently scheduled visions to justify his desires lie at the foundations of Mormonism. His self-destructive behavior would make him more likely be compared to David Koresh or Jim Jones than to Isaiah the prophet or Paul the apostle."

Many scholars of religious history would disagree with you. In reality, one of the reasons Mormon origins make the religious world so uncomfortable is because it mirrors Christian origins so well- Prophets, revelation, miracles, visions, persecution etc.

The origins of other world religions are different than Mormonism in their distance. Others are so separate in time and space. The historical records for Christian origins are much more scant than those we have for Mormon origins; thus Mormon origins are more open to intellectual scrutiny.

Joseph Smith himself was obsessed with keeping historical records of events in his life and church. He even wanted trivial details such as weather recorded.

The Joseph Smith Papers project is currently under way among believing Mormon scholars which will collect every primary source available on Joseph Smith's life comprising 27 volumes. Not really the errand of a believer who thinks their Prophet "has feet of sand", or can't survive under scrutiny.

LDS church historian said in a recent interview:

"We're in the process now through the Joseph Smith Papers Project [JSPP] of putting that out for all the world to see, and what they're going to see there is a wonderful life, a dedicated, purposeful life, of a man who really was, I think, led by God and had divine calling. And there are the documents, in a sense, to prove it."

'The visions of Joseph Smith who founded Mormonism, cannot be seriously compared for substance or authenticity with the Resurrection of Jesus'

You mean cannot without you having to admit your beliefs are just as absent of evidence as Mormonism is.

Prof Stevens-Arroyo,

Good essay placing Mormonism in its historical (American imperial!) context but you didn't go far enough and you make a logical error.

Not all religious claims have the same value.

Mormonism's founder, Joseph Smith, was a fraud pure and simple. Atheists will say Mormonism is a fringe Christian religion akin to a cult, with not much to distinguish it from, say, Lutheranism. Yet the latter was spread enthusiastically throughout Northern Europe, was instrumental in disseminating the Bible in the vernacular, promoting literacy, founding divinity schools, &tc, &tc. The former is associated with a fraud and polygamy.

"By your fruits..." doesn't work too well either. Lutheranism and its challenge to the Catholic Church precipitated terrible wars and ethnic cleansing throughout Europe--none worse than in my native Ireland where we are only just recovering from its effects. Nothing much came from Mormonism except Salt Lake City and very large families. Still Protestantism was tremendously productive, and I'm saying that as a Catholic. Not all religious claims have the same value.

Secondly,just because there are good people who are Mormons, it doesn't follow that Mormonism is a good religion. There are good people who are Wiccans, radical Islamists, and Shining Path guerillas. Even Stalin loved his mother! (Or was it his daughter?)

So I think we agree that Mormonism is a pretty strange, in parts ridiculous--baptizing the dead, anyone?--religion and you can't really put it in the mainstream of Christianity, orthodox, Catholic or Reformed.

Umm--

Did you miss the fact that more members of the 12 million strong church live OUTSIDE the United States and Canada than live within it???

How could you possibly call this an all American church that is ignorant of globalism?

To compare Joseph Smith to David Koresh or Jim Jones seems to be drawing a long bow Anthony! As a non-mormon who has done some research about the Mormons and Joseph Smith, your comments reflect the inaccuracies and non-sense , even lies, that have been perpetuated since the 1830's,long since repudiated by scholarly research. Yes, by their fruits you will know them , and as other churches and faith die, your final comment about the LDS's future may come back to bite you!