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Not quite sure what superior authorities has to do with this discussion (Rom 13) but what do I know?

I was thinking that study of 1 Corithians 13 would be a better subject (Love).

As understood and practiced by first century christians, taking part in worldly warfare would have never been accepted or practiced. This perversion of Christianity started with the so called church fathers after the first century, and really blossomed after the Council of Nicea.

Of course, as you know this apostasy was prophesied by the Apostle Paul (Acts 20:29-30).

Where do these religionists get off calling themselves Christians? As you know, 2 Timothy 4:3 seems to address this.

I agree with the earlier comment on nationalism. The religion of most people in the west today is not christianity, it's worship of the state. The only reason "religion" is involved is as a willing ally and supporter.

Sad...

Professor...recommend a careful study of Romans 13:1-7.

Mr. Mark:

The three criteria I offer as an alternative to a purely moral reasoning on going to war are not three criteria that must all be satisfied for war. Rather, they are three factors to be considered. If one factor comes up zero or negative, then the other two must be much stronger to justify war.

You disagree with the criteria since "it opens the door for aggressive war wherever and whenever we or anyone else pleases, because nations will always fabricate reasons that satisfy your criteria." I disagree. Aggressive war, and by that I assume you mean a war of conquest, could not satisfy criteria (3), a moral war. Also, wars of conquest are not in the country's long-term national interest.

In any event, your real criticism is that nations will fabricate the factors. If so, then there are no satisfactory criteria for war, since any of them could be fabricated. The problem is not with the criteria, but the fabrication, with Iraq as a nice test case.

Finally, the problem with the Murtha plan is that it is simply a more expensive way to withdraw. I'd rather save the money and concede that we have bungled in Iraq so badly that the probems are unfixable with guns or money.

Dear Professor Steven-Arroyo

Thank you for your well presented view. I appreciate the fact that you brought up the matter of reparation for Iraq. After WW I, Germany had to pay reparation. The US is the mightiest nation human history has ever known. Iraq is a country of 26 million people. It is only right that the US pay compensation and help rebuild Iraq. The US owes it to the Iraqis and to the world to regain its moral credibility. The rest of the world rightly sees the invasion of Iraq as a war of imperialism to gain control over Iraqi oil. The "noble" rationalisations were merely a smoke-screen.

After the midterm elections, in which the American people said "no" to Iraq war, I have great faith in the true American spirit of the American people and I am hopeful that this great tragedy will be used for the greater good of Iraq and the American people. I salute all the great Americans who opposed the war from the beginning and never gave up their effort at critiquing their own government and revealing unpleasant truths, and thus creating an opportunity for positive change.

It would be wise for the US to involve other countries interested in the peace and stability of the Middle East in finding a solution. It is possible that the Iraqis currently fighting US occupation may not attack a neutral UN peacekeeping force. The US could take the responsibility to pay for such an international force, to do the work in its stead, thus saving innocent Iraqi and US lives.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Hewitt Rose wrote:

"I think a better approach is to seriously evaluate three factors for war:

(1) What is the national interest at stake.
(2) Is the war winnable.
(3) Is the war moral?'

An interesting concept. What does one do if points 1 & 3 are satisfied but point 2 isn't? I would point out that when FDR declared war on Japan there were no assurances that your Point #2 above was satisfied.

The problem with your criteria is that it opens the door for aggressive war wherever and whenever we or anyone else pleases, because nations will always fabricate reasons that satisfy your criteria.

"You say that we should intervene to stop genocide around the world, but should not have declared war on Germany in WWII if Germany had not first declared war on us. Where is the moral consistency on that one?"

We were quite wrong to not intercede when the Nazis began their genocide in the 1930s. As far as declaring war, under the Bush Doctrine, Germany should have declared war on the USA much earlier as we were aiding and abetting their enemy (UK) through our shipment of armaments. It's amazing in retrospect to think how many American lives were lost through U-Boat attacks before Pearl Harbor, yet we didn't declare war. But we were isolationists back then.

As to your hypotheicals on Japan and Germany: those questions require best guesses and leaps of faith. Maybe the USA wanted to declare war on Germany but didn't because at the time the fleet lay in ruins and we were short on manpower and materials to wage a war on two fronts. Maybe Japan was all we could bite off at that time. It's a moot point as Germany declared war and we were up to our necks in it from that point forward.

As far as settling with Japan had they immediately sued for peace - I would have said "no" on the grounds that they attacked us...and to accept such a peace would have told the world that we would rollover after a single punch had been landed. Japan and Germany were at the height of their military power at that time, and the USA backing down from the fight could have so demoralized the world that we'd all be speaking German right now.

Finally, the question of reparations. We must as a nation accept that reparations are not for us to decide. That's for the world to decide, as the victorious world decided after WWI. We have lost this war, and we can hardly dictate terms at this point.

One problem we have with next steps in Iraq is the assumption that if our troops withdraw we're leaving Iraq high and dry. That is only true if the money is turned off at the same time. There should be a middle ground between totally turning off funding and throwing more and more money down a rathole.

Here's a compromise position that I haven't seen advocated: let's pull our troops back to the horizon line, a la the Murtha plan. Let's take the money that we are now spending to maintain a defensive position in Iraq and channel that money to the Iraqi government through a trustworthy third party (this, of course, assumes that it will cost less in money and material to base our troops in Kuwait than in Iraq). In other words, we'll be spending about the same every month, but more money will go to reconstruction and Iraqi self-determination and less into rotating our military through a war zone...and fewer Americans will lose their lives in the process.

Couple that with our NOT building bases in Iraq and not demanding control of their oil, and there might very well be a solution that the Iraqis could live with. The problem there is that it will never happen under bush because the whole reason we're in Iraq had nothing to do with a just war and a whole lot to do with the usual reasons nations start wars.

I'm sure there are plenty of holes in my idea. Take it as a starting point to considering a true new direction in Iraq.

I'm enjoying this dialogue with you and I appreciate your keeping it civil.

Mr. Mark:

Where we disagree is your desire to analyze war in general and the Iraq war in particular in purely moral terms. I believe that is a mistake, as your post shows. You can't do it consistently, and it leads you to some odd conclusions.

You addressed most of my hypotheticals, but look at where it leaves you. You say that we should intervene to stop genocide around the world, but should not have declared war on Germany in WWII if Germany had not first declared war on us. Where is the moral consistency on that one?

Also, is genocide simply an exception to the rule of defensive war only, or an exception that entirely consumes the rule? After all, we got into Viet Nam during the Kennedy Administration to fight a moral war against Communism. Viet Nam had no economic value for us.

You distinguish WWII on grounds we were fighting for our survival, but then won't touch the hypothetical of Japan offering peace after Pearl Harbor. The point of the hypothetical is to test the limits of the defensive war only criterion. Why fight, if the other side is willing to talk peace, unless there is something more to war than mere defense?

The hypothetical is not unrealistic. In fact, Japan hoped for some quick victories, which they mostly got, follwed by a negotiated peace. They were shocked by the uncompromising US response.

A pure moral analysis of war can lead you to war as much as it prevents war. See Viet Nam. So, I think a better approach is to seriously evaluate three factors for war:

(1) What is the national interest at stake.
(2) Is the war winnable.
(3) Is the war moral?

It takes an extreme case, such as genocide, to justify a war on moral grounds. Thus, for example, I note that every one saying that we "must do something" in Dafur will not say out loud what that must be. Commit 50,000 troops to shoot...shoot who exactly? Once you are specific, then criteria (1) and (2) veto the plan.

The original stated rational for war with Iraq satisfied all three criteria. However, the national interest was based on faulty intelligence, known to be suspect by Bush, but presented as if it was clear; that is, he lied. The war was winnable, but it has been bungled so badly that it isn't winnable now. And taking out a military tyrant that would gas his own people and try and seize his neighboor's oil wells did have moral merit, but where is that moral merit now? With candor, the war could not have been justified under these criteria.

Note, the preventative nature of the war is not on the list, but preventative war is hard to justifiy under these three criteria.

Finally, I am hardly "blamming the victims" when I suggest reparations are impossible. I am merely recognizing the reality of civil war in Iraq. We can't fix it.

Why are Christian religious conservatives easy to fool? ... an interesting question probably beside the main point initially raised, but if I may contribute:

American fundamentist doctrine seems to emphasize "in your face" points that separate rather than unify people of the Christian faith, to say nothing of people of other religious persuasions. This represents an unbalanced bias which any leader is able to exploit. That an American President did so is not surprising. Politics has been exploiting religion since the beginning of time.

The fault "fool" lines run through the doctrine. Religious researchers are finding fundamentalism in all religions tends toward violence. The reason, in my view, is that doctrine is crafted in such a way so as to appeal to fringe issues rather than the main thrust of the religion in question. I would submit that the main point of The Bible concerns God's redemption plan for man. But American Funadmentalism begins with the doctrine of "the virgin birth." So when you compare one with the other, it becomes obvious that fundamentalism is "off base" right from the start. Perhaps the unbalanced mind is the easiest to fool?

Mr. Aroyo:
"Without excusing religion from multiple cases of historical complicity, I would insist that it is a silly over-simplification to suppose that all the world’s wars have been caused by religion."

Exactly!

For example, I do not blame religion for the Iraq War.

I blame greed.

Now, it is true that the MOST religious segments in the US were the easiest to be fooled by this President -- as he name dropped God and read the Bible and portrayed the war as an armagaddon between good and evil(terrorists).

But there were wonderful religious individuals who opposed the Iraq War as an unjust war. Pope John Paul II was one of the. Jimmy Carter was another.

The problem was they were too passive and willing to remain silent.

But religion was NOT the first cause. I think that is often the case. Religion is just USED by evil people to make the case for their wars....

Why were the most religious (Evangelists and other conservative religious groups) the easiest to fool?

Ibn:" Agony can be removed only when Bush, Dick Chemny, Rumsfield and Tony Blair are br[ought] into a court of justice [for] kill[ing] millions of people and waging a war for no purpose".

Yes... The problem is too many Americans are not prepared to believe the depths of this President's lies and deceptions... and the conservative religious are the most easily fooled.

In a "just" world, Bush and his fellow criminals would all be tried in the International Court at the Hague. But of course, this administration (prescient of its future crimes) refused to join.

============================================
Hewitt Rose: "we have been trying to [fix Iraq], but have been successfully stopped by insurgents destroying things faster than we can build them. We can't fix Iraqi; too many Iraqi's won't let us."

Do you not read the newspapers? (It is true the national tv news never scratch the surface on this).

The majority of the Iraqis viewed the occupation as (1) a trick to take away the assets of their country and give them to foreign corporations, plus (2) were concerned this was an attempt to undermine their religious Muslim culture under the guise of "Westernization" with a Christian inner core.(They say most Muslims still remember the Crusades.)

The solution was listed in the Baker plan. Get the UN involved. Get Arab leaders to negotiatea plan (that fairly allocates oil revenue) that all tribes can live with; include Syria, Iran, and Saudi Arabia and emphasis humanitarianism.

Wait, that would mean there's a risk of kicking out the US multinationals who are making a $$killing... The right wingers in the US could not brag about Freedom Fries anymore, bashing the Dixie Chicks, and destroying the UN.

See why it won't happen with THIS administration.

Those who support this administration are aiding and abetting a rogue!
Sadly, this administration is using much "Christian" symbolism to help hide their crimes AND too many good people are falling for it.

Here is some music that helps expand one's understanding regarding the nature of war:
http://www.resourcesforlife.com/groups/activist/antiwarmusic.html

Hewitt wrote:

"Mr. Mark:

"Your history is accurate--Germany declared war on the U.S. before the U.S. could declare war on Germany--but you are missing the point. War only for defensive purposes is plainly wrong. If Germany had delayed its decision, should the U.S. have not declared war? If Japan had offered peace after Pearl Harbor, should the U.S. have agreed? If genocide happens in another country, should we not intervene? You don't deal with the argument."

Thanks for the questions. I won't be as cavalier as the bush administration and respond that "I don't deal in hypotheticals," so here goes:

1. Is a non-defensive war sometimes necessary?

I do not believe in the bush doctrine of pre-emptive war. But, let's assume that a pre-emptive war IS at times justified. If that were true, then I would posit that the bar to start such a war must be extremely high and that ALL other options must be totally exhausted. That was NOT the case in bush's launching of his Iraq War, not by a longshot. And it is not the case in history, sorry to say.

BTW - when is the last time a weaker nation declared war on a stronger nation? Why is it that stronger nations (like the USA) always seem to attack nations that are much weaker than them, usually on the pretext that the weaker nation is "threatening" the stronger nation?

2. Should the US have declared war on Germany if Germany hadn't declared war on us first?

I think the clear answer to that is "no." Why would we? Germany didn't attack us. It was Germany who had entered into a war pact with Japan, so they were beholden to declare war on us. The USA took the right road after Pearl Harbor, declaring war on the country that attacked us. It doesn't matter if the USA assumed that meant going to war with Germany and Italy.

3. Should we not intervene in countries where genocide is occuring?

I would agree that we should. That is NOT the same as going to war. There is a difference between war and a police action. I only wish that bush would do something about Darfur, but he's left it up to others (Democratic Governor Bill Richardson just took the initiative and brokered a 60-day ceasefire in Darfur. Let's hope it stands).

4. If Japan had offered peace immediately after 12/7/41, should we have accepted?

Now, that's a hypothetical that I won't deal with.

"In your second post, arguing that we have an obligation to fix Iraq, you again miss the point. We have been trying to do just that, but have been successfully stopped by insurgents destroying things faster than we can build them. We can't fix Iraqi; too many Iraqi's won't let us."

Yes, the insurgents have effectively stalled rebuilding in Iraq. I would also note for the record that there are plenty of American companies who have stalled the rebuilding by looting the money we have sent to Iraq for just those purposes. What's the amount of money that's "gone missing" at this point? $9 billion? That's money that could have provided armor for our troops, or built a few schools for Iraqis. Instead, it's lining the pockets of the defense industry. Funny how we're ready to pull up stakes in Iraq to punish those insurgents who have stalled the rebuilding, but we're not ready to cut off the flow of cash to the American companies who have done the same.

But none of that matters because the Iraqis didn't ask us to invade their country, let alone destroy their country. It's a little like shooting off illegal fireworks on July 4th and having those fireworks burn down your neighbor's home. The neighbor takes you to court to recover damages, and you get up in front of the judge and say, "Sir, I've been trying to rebuild his home. We invited him to a BBQ and even offered to wash his car for him - twice! - but he won't accept that as restituion. In fact, he won't even allow me to take his trash to the corner for him. Obviously, he's being unreasonable. I'm trying to come to a fair accomodation, but he fights me at every turn. I'd ask the court to find in my favor. And while you're at it, I'd like you to rule that I can use his backyard as a putting green."

I'm afraid that you miss the basic point: we broke it, we bought it. As an American, I'm sorry to say that we seem eager to take "bold steps" AS LONG AS things work out in our favor. When that happens, we chalk it up to American character, chutzpah, daring, moral imperative...whatever. When it goes sour, we look for non-American scapegoats on which to hang our filthy laundry.

Victory in war should never be a foregone conclusion, yet the bush administration treated the Iraq debacle as just that, playing up the most-optimistic scenarios for the war's outcome while stifling and denying possible downsides (no need to recount all of that here...it's well documented). The fact that THIS war was posited as a "plus" for US interests testifies to its illegality. We didn't enter WWII with the stated purpose of promoting democracy or any of the other BS that bush advanced for the war in Iraq. No, we entered WWII because 1) we had been attacked, and 2) we were fighting for our existence.

What's truly tragic about your outlook is that you're blaming the victims. That's a cowardly position to advocate. The truth of the matter is that bush's misadventure in Iraq may well spell doom for the USA. The frightening truth of the matter is that our fate as a nation may now be out of our hands, thanks to bush. The situation we find ourselves in today is a situation of OUR making. The Iraqis had nothing to do with it, and they still have nothing to do with it.

In the oft-qouted phrase (thought seldom quoted in its entirety) of US Senator Carl Schurz, " My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

It is time that we set our country right.

Mr. Mark:

Your history is accurate--Germany declared war on the U.S. before the U.S. could declare war on Germany--but you are missing the point. War only for defensive purposes is plainly wrong. If Germany had delayed its decision, should the U.S. have not declared war? If Japan had offered peace after Pearl Harbor, should the U.S. have agreed? If genocide happens in another country, should we not intervene? You don't deal with the argument.

In your second post, arguing that we have an obligation to fix Iraq, you again miss the point. We have been trying to do just that, but have been successfully stopped by insurgents destroying things faster than we can build them. We can't fix Iraqi; too many Iraqi's won't let us.

We liberated Iraq from three decades of brutal totalitarianism. We've spent hundreds of billions keeping them from killing each other. The notion that we "owe" them is specious nonsense.

I want to bring in your kind notice the views of the people form this part of the world which is so called East and fundamentalist.

Always there is a question why people from the Muslim world hate US?

For the answer of this question you have to go through history and current affairs and clarify following things.

Who is terrorist?

Who fought two world wars? Who killed millions of people in these two world wars? Who invented Atom Bomb? Who make slaves from Africa? Who captured countries of Muslim world and colonized them. Who make conspiracy against Ottoman Empire and break them and captured Iraq during First World War with the same spirit of liberating Iraqi People. Who captured Algeria and killed millions of people. Who carried out genocide a decade before in Bosnia killing 250 thousand Muslims? Obvious answer is Christians. Israel killed thousands of people smashed the whole country of Lebanon and jeopardize its infra structure for the sake of two army personnel with the help of cluster bombs provided with United State and great support of Great Britain. Nobody dare to call them terrorist. When a painful massacre occurred on 9/11 killing 3 to 4 thousand people whole Muslim world become terrorist.

Who is fundamentalist?

Who is following on the theology of End Time? To fulfill the requirement of End time captured the land of the Muslim world and snatched from them and gives to Jews showing that have been victimized in Second World War. Questions arise is that who tortured them - German (Christian). Why the land was not given in the vicinity of Germany? The answer would be that Jews own land of Palestine 2000 years before. On the contrary when Muslims think and talk about 1400 years back era they will be charged as Fundamentalist.

Double standard:

Irony is that Israel Prime Minister claims that Israel is a Nuclear Power and have atom bombs but nobody want to investigate and on the other hand Iran claims that it want to acquire Nuclear Technology for peaceful purpose but US is insisting it is for destructive purpose.

Numerous resolutions were forwarded against Israel and vetoed by United States. Statistics shows that United Stated used veto power for its own favor as it does for Israel.

Iraq:

Bush administration wage a war against Iraq reason being:

• Saddam is a dictator
• He has WMD
• He has linked with Al-Qaeda

Definitely he was a dictator. But who helped this dictator to wage war against Iran and killed around a million of people (Ans: United State). Who provide him chemical weapons to kill his own people? (Ans: Western companies). There is Fedral Castro at the next step of United State since last 40 years continuous head ache for US but nobody dare to liberate Cubans from this dictator. Irony is that US is backing numerous dictators of the Muslim world: Husni Mubarrak, Pervez Musharraf, Sheiks of UAE and Kings of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Without Saddam and losing millions of people and with dark future would Iraqi people be happy?

There was no WMD (Weapon for Mass Destruction). US intelligence has fallacious assumption. And on the basis for these assumptions a war can not be justified killing million of people and ruin trillion of American dollars. Now same story is going to repeat against Iran.

This was a joke that Saddam had linked with Al-Qaeda. Saddam was a purely secular and Arab nationalist. Neither his clothing nor his face cut shows any link with fundamentalist
Al-Qaeda. But one thing that force the liberal and secular of the Muslim world that whether they are fundamentalist or secular, being Muslim they will be penalized by the neo-conservative (Christian Fundamentalist) of the west.

Palestine:

Since last sixty years the owner of the land are killed, captured and their infrastructure is continuously smashed. They have been restrained from basic needs. Democracy which is the main slogan of west, when nurtured in Palestine and Hammas was elected this was not acceptable to US and allied. Fiasco is that members of Palestine assembly were captured by Israel and entire world was silent. Fattah who was labeled as terrorist for last 50 years now become the apple of their eye.

Another astonishing thing is that United State helped to create and establish Israel. Now in this era when Israel itself claims that it has strongest military and it is one of the largest weapon exporter, still United State is giving billions of dollar aid which is ultimately snatch from pocket of American tax payers. Now Israel becomes a divine icon against to whom one can not speak a single world. These are the arrogant Jews who are doing against there own innocent people by crossing the limits for the sake of Greater Israel.

Solution:

If people of the west really want to have a pragmatic solution and to make world peaceful, they have to realize that all the human beings are equal and Muslims are also human being.

If the fundamentalist of the Muslim world are responsible for any disturbance in this world then neo conservative (Christian Fundamentalist) sitting in the White House are equally dangerous for this world and US because they have power and license to kill. They are only interested to fulfill there fundamentalist theory of War of Armageddon (End Time). They are not sincere even with the innocent Jews who will be eventually victim of their theology.

Agony can be removed only when Bush, Dick Chemny, Rumsfield and Tony Blair are bring into court of justice to kill millions of people and waging a war for no purpose. Now this is responsibility of you people to reveal the fact and bridge the gap between East and West and tell your people why Muslim world hate United State? People of this corner of the world are cordial, friendly and peace loving if justice is provided to them. For the sake of tranquility and peace you have to come forward and raise the voice for justice.

Hope you would acknowledge receipt of this mail and forward me its reply or any article you would write in this regard.

Regards

Ibn Adam

A VOICE FROM EAST

I want to bring in your kind notice the views of the people form this part of the world which is so called East and fundamentalist.

Always there is a question why people from the Muslim world hate US?

For the answer of this question you have to go through history and current affairs and clarify following things.

Who is terrorist?

Who fought two world wars? Who killed millions of people in these two world wars? Who invented Atom Bomb? Who make slaves from Africa? Who captured countries of Muslim world and colonized them. Who make conspiracy against Ottoman Empire and break them and captured Iraq during First World War with the same spirit of liberating Iraqi People. Who captured Algeria and killed millions of people. Who carried out genocide a decade before in Bosnia killing 250 thousand Muslims? Obvious answer is Christians. Israel killed thousands of people smashed the whole country of Lebanon and jeopardize its infra structure for the sake of two army personnel with the help of cluster bombs provided with United State and great support of Great Britain. Nobody dare to call them terrorist. When a painful massacre occurred on 9/11 killing 3 to 4 thousand people whole Muslim world become terrorist.

Who is fundamentalist?

Who is following on the theology of End Time? To fulfill the requirement of End time captured the land of the Muslim world and snatched from them and gives to Jews showing that have been victimized in Second World War. Questions arise is that who tortured them - German (Christian). Why the land was not given in the vicinity of Germany? The answer would be that Jews own land of Palestine 2000 years before. On the contrary when Muslims think and talk about 1400 years back era they will be charged as Fundamentalist.

Double standard:

Irony is that Israel Prime Minister claims that Israel is a Nuclear Power and have atom bombs but nobody want to investigate and on the other hand Iran claims that it want to acquire Nuclear Technology for peaceful purpose but US is insisting it is for destructive purpose.

Numerous resolutions were forwarded against Israel and vetoed by United States. Statistics shows that United Stated used veto power for its own favor as it does for Israel.

Iraq:

Bush administration wage a war against Iraq reason being:

• Saddam is a dictator
• He has WMD
• He has linked with Al-Qaeda

Definitely he was a dictator. But who helped this dictator to wage war against Iran and killed around a million of people (Ans: United State). Who provide him chemical weapons to kill his own people? (Ans: Western companies). There is Fedral Castro at the next step of United State since last 40 years continuous head ache for US but nobody dare to liberate Cubans from this dictator. Irony is that US is backing numerous dictators of the Muslim world: Husni Mubarrak, Pervez Musharraf, Sheiks of UAE and Kings of Jordan and Saudi Arabia. Without Saddam and losing millions of people and with dark future would Iraqi people be happy?

There was no WMD (Weapon for Mass Destruction). US intelligence has fallacious assumption. And on the basis for these assumptions a war can not be justified killing million of people and ruin trillion of American dollars. Now same story is going to repeat against Iran.

This was a joke that Saddam had linked with Al-Qaeda. Saddam was a purely secular and Arab nationalist. Neither his clothing nor his face cut shows any link with fundamentalist
Al-Qaeda. But one thing that force the liberal and secular of the Muslim world that whether they are fundamentalist or secular, being Muslim they will be penalized by the neo-conservative (Christian Fundamentalist) of the west.

Palestine:

Since last sixty years the owner of the land are killed, captured and their infrastructure is continuously smashed. They have been restrained from basic needs. Democracy which is the main slogan of west, when nurtured in Palestine and Hammas was elected this was not acceptable to US and allied. Fiasco is that members of Palestine assembly were captured by Israel and entire world was silent. Fattah who was labeled as terrorist for last 50 years now become the apple of their eye.

Another astonishing thing is that United State helped to create and establish Israel. Now in this era when Israel itself claims that it has strongest military and it is one of the largest weapon exporter, still United State is giving billions of dollar aid which is ultimately snatch from pocket of American tax payers. Now Israel becomes a divine icon against to whom one can not speak a single world. These are the arrogant Jews who are doing against there own innocent people by crossing the limits for the sake of Greater Israel.

Solution:

If people of the west really want to have a pragmatic solution and to make world peaceful, they have to realize that all the human beings are equal and Muslims are also human being.

If the fundamentalist of the Muslim world are responsible for any disturbance in this world then neo conservative (Christian Fundamentalist) sitting in the White House are equally dangerous for this world and US because they have power and license to kill. They are only interested to fulfill there fundamentalist theory of War of Armageddon (End Time). They are not sincere even with the innocent Jews who will be eventually victim of their theology.

Agony can be removed only when Bush, Dick Chemny, Rumsfield and Tony Blair are bring into court of justice to kill millions of people and waging a war for no purpose. Now this is responsibility of you people to reveal the fact and bridge the gap between East and West and tell your people why Muslim world hate United State? People of this corner of the world are cordial, friendly and peace loving if justice is provided to them. For the sake of tranquility and peace you have to come forward and raise the voice for justice.

Hope you would acknowledge receipt of this mail and forward me its reply or any article you would write in this regard.

Regards

Ibn Adam

WE CAN TAKE IT FROM THE 1/3 OF THE FOREIGN AID BUDGET

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries.

While it is commonly reported that Israel officially receives some $3 billion every year in the form of economic aid from the U.S. government, this figure is just the tip of the iceberg. There are many billions of dollars more in hidden costs and economic losses lurking beneath the surface. A recently published economic analysis has concluded that U.S. support for the state of Israel has cost American taxpayers nearly $3 trillion ($3 million millions) in 2002 dollars.

“The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion” is a summary of economic research done by Thomas R. Stauffer. Stauffer’s summary of the research was published in the June 2003 issue of The Washington Report on Middle East Affairs.

Stauffer is a Washington, D.C.-based engineer and economist who writes and teaches about the economics of energy and the Middle East. Stauffer has taught at Harvard University and Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Service. Stauffer’s findings were first presented at an October 2002 conference sponsored by the U.S. Army College and the University of Maine.

You said:

"You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to conclude that the present Iraq War is folly. But to form a principled judgment you need a moral framework.

My criteria come from my Catholic faith. Both a blessing and a burden, my conscience is shaped by the collective experience of Christian believers over two millennia."

I agree, but consider the Iraq war to be a U.S. war crime, not merely a folly. My moral judgement comes from 100,000 years of human development, from the human brain to the realization of species empathy, to the recognition of international law. All of humanity (except the marginally guilty) is offended by this war. Religion has nothing to do with it.

You said:

"You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to conclude that the present Iraq War is folly. But to form a principled judgment you need a moral framework.

My criteria come from my Catholic faith. Both a blessing and a burden, my conscience is shaped by the collective experience of Christian believers over two millennia."

I agree, but consider the Iraq war to be a U.S. war crime, not merely a folly. My moral judgement comes from 100,000 years of human development, from the human brain to the realization of species empathy. All of humanity is offended by this war. Religion has nothing to do with it.

Hewitt Rose wrote:

"Instead, the U.S has already spend litterally billions of dollars futilely trying to rebuild Iraq. But we cannot rebuild what the Iraqs are determined to destroy."

Sorry, but it is WE who have destroyed Iraq, not the Iraqis. We have the moral obligation to rebuild what we have illegally and wantonly destroyed.

Put the shoe on your foot: if the USA had been invaded, its infrastructure destroyed, its armies disbanded, its leaders hunted down and executed, its populace living without basic services and suffering a 60% unemployment rate, would you be as cavalier as to suggest that " the invaders cannot rebuild what Americans are determined to destroy"? Would you be saying that "we've spent billions futileli trying to rebuild" the USA when the price tag might actually be trillions?

A Colin Powell once said, "we broke it, we bought it." Our obligation to Iraq is deep and will impact this country for decades to come. THAT is the LEGITIMATE price a country pays for launching wars of aggression based on lies and fueled by nationalism and reason-challengeing hubris.

Hewitt Rose wrote:

"Third, if the only permissible Just War is confined to resistance, then does Mr. Stevens-Arroyo condemn the U.S. declaration of war against Germany in WWII? "

Actually, it was Germany that declared war on the USA on 12/9/41. That's a clear distinction that needs to be made. I don't know how many times I've heard people saying we were justified in attacking Iraq after being attacked by al Queda using the "Japan attacked us and we declared war on Germany" as a rationale.

History doesn't support such reasoning..

Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo

There is a lot of nonsense in this post other than the opening conclusion that the Iraq War is folly.

First, the wars fought by "by atheists like Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot," were not fought to advance atheism. They were fought to advance Communism, obviously. Mr. Stevens-Arroyo's comparison to wars fought to advance Christianity is inaccurate and crudely insulting to atheists.

Second, Ba'al nicely disposes of Mr. Stevens-Arroyo's self-serving silliness that a war is “religious” only if the purpose of the violence is to “save souls.” Let me add, why can't we take those who fight to exterminate all those who cannot be converted to the One True Religion at their word? Thus, for example, Al Qaeda is engaged in a religious war, even if the U.S. is not. That political power and ethnic tension may also involved in war does not mean a war is not "religious."

Third, if the only permissible Just War is confined to resistance, then does Mr. Stevens-Arroyo condemn the U.S. declaration of war against Germany in WWII? Only Japan directly attacked the U.S. If the Japanese immediately offered a truce after the attack on Pearl Harbor, would Mr. Stevens-Arroyo condemn further U.S. hostilities? Finally, if one country commits genocide, but not in our country, should we do nothing? His standard is unworkable, and, on its face, immoral.

Finally, Mr. Stevens-Arryo asks, "might the obligation to reparations that the 16th century Bartolomé de las Casas placed upon Spanish conquistadores be applied to a post-Bush United States"? U.S. reparations might be as meaningful as conquistadore reparations. The conquistadores ignored de las Casas and paid nothing.

Instead, the U.S has already spend litterally billions of dollars futilely trying to rebuild Iraq. But we cannot rebuild what the Iraqs are determined to destroy.

Prof. Stevens-Arroyo writes "Shouldn’t we define a war as “religious” only if the purpose of the violence is to “save souls?”".

The answer to that is clearly no, and this is a transparent and disingenuous attempt to define a problem away. If the purpose of a war is a form of religious-based ethnic cleansing, than you are talking about a religious war. This is especially the case when the two "ethnic groups" are separated pretty much ONLY by religion, as in Bosnia, Kashmir, and elsewhere.

Let me also note a theological extension of the Two Swords Theory, from a passage by Aquinas (“Summa Theologica - Vol. 3 - The Second Part Of The Second Part, Part I).

"Wherefore if forgers of money and other evil-doers are forthwith condemned to death by the secular authority, much more reason is there for heretics, as soon as they are convicted of heresy, to be not only excommunicated but even put to death.

On the part of the Church, however, there is mercy which looks to the conversion of the wanderer, wherefore she condemns not at once, but “after the first and second admonition,” as the Apostle directs: after that, if he is yet stubborn, the Church no longer hoping for his conversion, looks to the salvation of others, by excommunicating him and separating him from the Church, and furthermore delivers him to the secular tribunal to be exterminated thereby from the world by death”

The Inquisition thus proposed by this Doctor of the Church only ended in the 19th century. I would call the mass expulsion and oppression of religions minorities and dissenters a form of religious war, even if it tends to burn at a low level.

Civil War in Ireland and Iraq

Thoughtful article from Mr Stevens-Arroyo. He is correct in that the Troubles in Northern Ireland (1967-1994) were not a religious war. It was a civil war, between Nationalists (who were Catholic) and Unionists (who were Protestant). But Ireland had had a “British Problem” since the Normans landed in England, or rather since the Normans landed in Ireland—about 1166 and tried to form an alliance with some of the local Celtic kings. And there were no ‘Catholic’ and ‘Protestant’ opposing groups at that time, just natives and uninvited occupiers.

And posting about uninvited occupiers-- for that is what the Americans are in Iraq, I’m afraid-- I would agree with Mr S-A and Fr Bryon that the US should leave as soon as possible.

The invasion and uninvited occupation were mounted on such flimsy pretexts and arrogant premises that their precipitators should do the merciful thing for Iraq and withdraw. Most Shia territories are in the hands on local militias in any case and these are providing a semblance of order. American troops are merely providing an extra target in the civil war that Bush and his neocon advisors knowingly precipitated. And civil wars are generally settled when the opposing sides have 1) had enough, 2) can no longer achieve their aims by violence. Who knows when that will be in Iraq? The civil war in Northern Ireland (the Troubles) lasted over twenty years.

I don’t know about reparations, but a Truth and Reconciliation Council will be needed after the end of hostilities. And a footnote about St Augustine (one of Christianity's most towering figures): he needed to justify some type of defensive warfare--the Vandals (barbarians) were at the gates of Hippo!

Dear Anthony M. Stevens-Arroyo, you post a formadable body of work for such a forum Sir. I have only done a fly over, so please excuse me if I miss your main point this time through. This is the main point that I derive: NATIONALISM is the primary matrix. All other divisions, including Religion arise from, and contibute to it. Therefore, you can appreciate that those who's purpose is to sow the seeds of hatred to reap profits in human suffering will never pursue peace and understanding on the basis of commonly held aspects of humanity. Does that fairly represent the main point? I hope to return. God Bless and Keep you and yours Always...never turn away.

It is just that Mr Stevens-Arroyo has opened the debate on whether or not the USA et al owe war reparations to Iraq. There is certainly precedent for this in history. Germany was forced to pay reparations for WWI, and it broke their treasury.

While I would not hope that the same fate would befall the USA, there must be some price to pay for launching illegal wars of aggression. The USA is signatory to the UN Charter, and according to Article 6 of the Constitution, we are bound by that international treaty as if it were the law of the land.

Since the Nuremberg Trials, the price for launching wars of aggression has been very high. If we cannot hold ourselves to the standards that we ourselves set, then we are truly lost as a nation.

The one step that MUST be taken before we pay any reparations is to call bush, Cheney, Rice, Powell and the rest of them to testify UNDER OATH about what they knew before they launched their war in Iraq. If it turns out (and it's likely that it will) that the bush cabal knew full well that they launched their war based on lies and not on faulty intelligence (a bogus excuse if I ever heard one that made Tenet's CIA a willing scapegoat for bush's malfeasance), then our course of action would be clear - ie: war reparations would be due.

Perhaps the first meaningful gesture in such a process would be for the Congress to impeach bush and his staff. That would at least send the world the message that we take our self-proclaimed morality seriously. The reparations could come later.

It's time for the American people to face the consequences of the hell that we as a nation of vengeful cheerleaders unleashed on Iraq. Americans love to throw out bromides like, "don't do the crime if you can't do the time." Well, it's time we faced up to our crimes and accepted the penalties for the same.

I thank the writer for having the courage to advocate such bold steps, even if I disagree vehemently with the rest of the views expressed in his column.