Just, Even Holy Reasons for Using an Army

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Rabbi- what is "the Jihad"?

R. Steinsalz,

I agree with Janet, who posted earlier. The issue isn't religion per se. Certainly, those soldiers who practice religion should be able to do so and have the assistance of chaplains, who can provide counsel and lead services.

That, really, is where is should begin and end. No group should attempt to impose its own religious views on another. Particularly, in the military, where men and women are responsible for one another's lives, conversionism, which many find divisive, is a dangerous thing.

I like it Rabbi. You know my technical side tells me that there should not be prayer time. However, your perspective is much deeper. You bring wisdom, discretion, and that is what is missing when we try to live only by the rules. What is missing in a "rule of law, bill of rights, constitutionally run" society is God. A piece of paper replaces the wisdom of men like yourself and those military Chaplins leading these men in prayer. Thanks once again for a different perspective.

You reference Christians and Muslims making war as being motivated by religion rather than religion serving the soldier. Is this your tribal Judaism speaking? You seem to be making a value judgment that religiously motivated war is wrong for Christians and Muslims (I agree) but neglect the Jewish historical tradition of wiping out civilizations and taking their land, ALL IN THE NAME OF THE JEWISH TRIBAL GOD.

Give me a break. That’s complete trash and you know it. War is always human failure to avoid conflict and is always evil for everyone involved. It would be better to demand that religions find a way to end war, than that they contribute to a soldier's improvement in making war.

The cults of Abraham are directly responsible for more human suffering than any other religions in history. Religion is being used by our military to pump up troops to do battle in a nation (Iraq) when we are engaged in an illegal war of aggression with the sole purpose of destroying a nation to control their resources.

Any clergy involved in this travesty should be very, very ashamed.

I mean, seriously, before you start sanctifying or forgiving yourself for any sort of action like a war, you should have already dealt with the, 'OK, what do we really expect to happen, here?'

And be damn sure you ain't fooling yourself.

Frankly, what passed for a 'debate' about the war in monotheist America went directly to the 'Can we religiously-justify this,' and completely skipped over the 'Is this even smart,' part.

"It's always a choice between fighting and admitting to false belief."

No, it's not. Operating under that presumption is how these wars *happen.*

I think you contradict yourself. Armies do God's work and the cure for that is more God. That's known as positive feedback validating the notion that the world is coming to an end. The God force is a self destructive force making me wonder just which supernatural being that was in the burning bush.

True believers can't be defeated. They fight on to the death. When the whole planet has nothing but true believers then goodbye human race. It's always a choice between fighting and admitting to false belief. With "can't be defeated" populations at present or soon to be levels it will be possible to always find another true believer ready to become a martyr.

When it become all Muslims must die in response to all Jews must die at least we'll know where we stand. Somebody's gonna die. I seriously doubt chaplains are helpful for anyone in the business of killing all those who insist on dying rather than admit they have false beliefs.

Where were the chaplains at Iwo to complain about shooting prisoners or "finishing off" those that insisted on dying rather than admit they were wrong? Why didn't the chaplains protest what our all white Christian boys did and were proud of themselves for doing at Iwo Jima? It's because chaplains weren't there. If they had been there we may well have lost.

Chaplains should be forced to take the point then maybe they'd decide to become regular soldiers rather than "saw the light" draft dodgers. But then the officers do have it so much better than the grunts. Real leaders lead from the front so I've heard.

Ok, I'm not sure what the Rabbi is getting at on this one, but one thing's for sure.

Bush figured God spoke to him and told him to prosecute this 'Crusade' in Iraq... without a plan.

Consequently there's a lot of work for chaplains.

"... there may be a just reason, even a holy reason for having and using an army. The Crusades and the Jihad are examples of such religiously motivated armies ..."

Am I the only one who finds it odd that a Talmudist -- a presumed Jedi Master of pilpul -- would cite those twin abominations immediately after positing that there may be just and holy reasons for going to war?

Or is this so baldly self-contradictory and utterly incapable of being reconciled that even calling attention to it is superfluous?

"So there is a need for religion not only for the army as such, but for the soldiers as individuals. They have to have some resources in order to keep their humanity. Sometimes, religion can be a channel that leads from Heaven into the human heart, even into human behavior."

I don't think there is any conflict about whether soldiers who wish practice their religions having the ability to do so when possible. To meet this need/desire, we have chaplains, whose role must be limited to providing counsel and services. Problems arise when one religious group seeks to take precedence, or, indeed a "takeover." Then, religion, becomes one more weapon of oppression, even violence.

Armies are the final dispute resolvers. As we have become more civilized, we have courts, which work in some countries, sometimes, sort of. But in America, when the Supreme Court rules, most people bow down to it. Thank goodness, otherwise, we would have war.

Among nations, there are treaties, and courts which seek to enforce a sort of international court system, to tamp down the human inclination towards war, and maybe to get rid of it. But it has not been working very well. All countries of the world reserve the right to make war, for any reason, at any time, and the only illegal wars, are wars that "other" counties fight.

As I said, war is the final dispute resolver. So, it is no wonder that religion and war go together so well; religious people have a lot of disputes to settle, and war does a pretty good job, of saying who has won the argument and who has lost.