Heaven and Hell, In the Abstract

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Anonymous Writes:
**************************
"An abstract after-life existence is not the stuff of which children and simple people should be dreaming."

What exactly does that mean?

That only you have the intellect to contemplate heaven?

That common people should not strive to better themselves and escape the illusions of this world?"
****************************

This means exactly what Viejita del oeste says: "we'd be better off trying to do good in this world -- to serve G-d -- rather than dwelling on fairy tales and literal-minded predictions of what will befall us in the next."

In many of the most profound Jewish texts the reader is advised not even to concern oneself with the merit of performing various commandments. The objective is to hear and do what is commanded. And yes, this means study, but not not picking and choosing, weighing commandments or worrying about some threshold that "gets one in" to a place called heaven.

-Mason

Peddling our way with great persistence through life thinking neither about heaven or hell is one of the poorest lifetime choices we can make.

Gracious God Almighty, draw all sincere cyclists whether they be Jews or non Jews, back to Jesus Christ. Have mercy on them even if from time to time they cut too many corners and are more careless than they should be.

Furnish them with fervent faith in Your Beloved's righteous character; so that their first port of praise for Him is for His redeeming, victorious, finished work at Calvary.

At Calvary Jesus Christ's blood was shed; so that He as Bridegroom could restore His true followers (bride) back to an intimate or restored marital covenant relationship with eternal God.

Heavenly Father, we ask You to bring Your handkerchief with You for our tears are too many for the handkerchiefs we have the strength to wash and dry.

Come joyful Jesus Christ. Come dry our tears, Our highest treasure of heaven. Come nearer to us holy God Triune and don't forget to bring Your clean, dry handkerchief.

Fellow cyclists always remember that only cyclists with clear vision can be trusted.

My advice to you is to always double check the teaching of cyclists, with any hint of dodgy vision, against the Holy Bible.

Weeping for mercy cyclists Commitment to Christ Jesus will enable Him to dry our tears and clear our vision; so that He can guide us to His cycle track that leads to an appreciation of and gratitude for Calvary's finished work.

Come quickly Lord God; for everyone is commentating that we can't ride our bicycles in a straight line.

O for the pure and clear vision of Our Christ Jesus. Come holy Instructor for You are the only one who can teach us to ride our bicycle without looking like a larrikin.

Come soon for we know that You can't resist replying to our attempts to sing in praise of Your holiness.

Come cuddle us compassionate Christ; so that with vision strong, clear, courageous and confident our bicycle riding will pass Your scrutiny.

Precious treasured Jesus Christ not only did You never sin or transgress God's divine law You triumphantly fulfilled it totally.

The exquisite beauty of Calvary is that Christ Jesus as the spiritually obedient virgin Bridegroom joyfully takes fallen unredeemed mankind back as His bride.

The invitation to join the saints on a peaceful ride through eternity with Our Prince of peace, Jesus Christ, is still open whether we study the Koran, worship the water in the Ganges, bow down before Buddha statues or get all excited when men kick footballs about.

It is time nonetheless, fellow somewhat wayward cyclists, for everyone to use their feet of faith wisely here on earth again.

Cyclists cycling around like a cyclone, I'll join you around the next tight, testing bend to encourage you in your walk before holy God Triune provided I don't fall off.

Faithful heavenly Father, steady my nerves for my reputation as a semi-competent cyclist before man depends on my taking the next corner correctly.

Whatever happens great Triune God I will always love You immensely with my whole head and heart Triune God, and seek to extol Your name as the Giver of life and unsurpassed coordination skills. Amen

I am guessing that the grammar-deficient poster calling herself/himself "Talmud = perverted writtings." [sic] is either a white supremacist, a member of Fred Phelps' family, and very possibly both.

I am guessing that the grammar-deficient poster calling herself/himself "Talmud = perverted writtings." [sic] is either a white supremacist, a member of Fred Phelps' family, and very possibly both.

I am guessing that the grammar-devoid poster calling herself/himself "Talmud = perverted writtings." [sic] is either a white supremacist, a member of Fred Phelps' family, and very possibly both.

Who cares about Judahism, that old dead fig tree.

You know nothing, if you don't know Christ.

You invade peoples, you piggy back that sacrid family and now we are suppose to believe you

sick synagogue satan worshipping Talmud readers have the American Goy's best interest at heart?

Forever those who believe in Christ Jesus in heart and truth will oppose you Talmudic readers.

YOUR SICK.

clsaproh isou kdzhoqg vctjmsar xsukncy fewo xstupfe

clsaproh isou kdzhoqg vctjmsar xsukncy fewo xstupfe

clsaproh isou kdzhoqg vctjmsar xsukncy fewo xstupfe

Well, you seem to have forgotten the basic premise of Judaism that they are the exclusively CHOSEN people of god- hence excluding the rest of humanity.
I dont think there is any religion as EXCLUSIVE of the rest of humanity as Judaism.

If I'm correct according to Judaism all people go to heaven, regardless of your religious belief, if you lived a noble life on this earth you go to heaven. Judaism does not hold for a person to enter heaven that he or she has to be a Jew, interesting that Judaism is the only religion that holds that view its not a exclusive religion as believe in my god or you go to hell.

Give yourself to ODIN the One True God.
All others are False Gods and are to be avoided
if you wish to spend eternity in Valhalla.
There is no God but ODIN the warrior God.
Surrender now and enjoy His Love and protection
for ever and ever and ever and ever and ever.Amen.

Anon,
I took it to mean that Steinsaltz feels we'd be better off trying to do good in this world -- to serve G-d -- rather than dwelling on fairy tales and literal-minded predictions of what will befall us in the next.
No matter what your religious leanings, you've got to admit he has a point there.

Great wisdom, Rabbi. As for you "Christian" posers, er posters, you are showing you true colors. How Christlike.

"All that come to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." Hebrews 11:6

The rabbi writes:

"An abstract after-life existence is not the stuff of which children and simple people should be dreaming."

What exactly does that mean?

That only you have the intellect to contemplate heaven?

That common people should not strive to better themselves and escape the illusions of this world?

VOTE ((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll-n-Rap, Mitt-Romney for Prez. yes! in 08 )))))))))))))))

Thank you very much for tackling this wide open subject.One think that we must bear in mind that the wrong doers will not set free without getting punished . If they die they will go to hell. For the people who do good things for themselves and for humanity they will be rewarded by going to heaven. This is what i have learnt in my religion "Islam". if you go to Quran you will find out that Heaven and Hell exist;and they are well described. For me the question that we must ask ourselves is what have i prepared to go to heaven?

Thank you very much for tackling this wide open subject.One think that we must bear in mind that the wrong doers will not set free without getting punished . If they die they will go to hell. For the people who do good things for themselves and for humanity they will be rewarded by going to heaven. This is what i have learnt in my religion "Islam". if you go to Quran you will find out that Heaven and Hell exist;and they are well described.

In the 23rd Psalm,

David wrote,

"And I shall dwell in the House of the Lord Forever"

suggesting an eternal duration.

Also suggesting that he contemplated his post-mortality.

Rabbi's hate Jesus Christ.

This man knows no truth.

Wow - this is refreshing. Such respect being shown from posters. Thank you all.

Wow - this is refreshing. Such respect being shown from posters. Thank you all.

TDay,
I think we differ slightly in that I recognize other sources of "fact" besides the bible. What is evident from the posts and comments on this subject is that the concept of life after death is very much driven by our cultural preconceptions.
Followers of Jesus of Nazareth (of which I am one) need to remember that the Hebrew scriptures are not necessarily to be read as precursors to our gospel story.
I think it was Lawrence Kushner who once said that after we die we are forced to replay a sort of film of our life, and our actions and choices, over and over for eternity. If you like what you see, it's heaven; if not, it's hell.

Rabbi:
Does not the Book of Daniel mention one as a Son of Man coming before the Ancient One. Does not the prophet Elijah ride up to heaven in a flaming chariot. Does not an angel take a burning coal and place it in the mouth of the prophet - are not the angels described in powerful and majestic terms.
Now its true that the notion of heaven and hell went through a evolution in the Jewish texts but its seems clear that the orthodox teaching prior to desporia (presented by the Pharisees) clearly believed in the resurrection of the dead and praying for the dead.

Rabbi, what great wisdom in such a little space. As a Christian, I disagree on the gate to heaven or hell. For me, the gate is Jesus Christ. For you, the gate is human works as judged by the infinite wisdom of God. If I have not stated your position correctly, then my apologies. On all else we agree. I thank you for giving us this clear explanation of the Jewish position. It certainly reinforces my own views as I study the same Old Testament you study for answers. It is no wonder you have great admirers, like WRJONES.

I am a great admirer of Rabbi Steinsaltz and own his "Steinsaltz edition of the Talmud". It is refreshing to read his comments concerning "heaven and hell" especially when they coincide completely with my owm concepts. :>)

I am a great admirer of Rabbi Steinsaltz and own his "Steinsaltz edition of the Talmud". It is refreshing to read his comments concerning "heaven and hell" especially when they coincide completely with my owm concepts. :>)

Viejita stated

>>I think the standard American concept of "Hell" has more to do with Dante and Milton than with either Hebrew or Christian theology. We seem to be a very visual and literal-minded people.

Couldnt agree more. The current view was born more out of the Renissance, middle ages, etc etc than biblical fact.

The bible only speaks of hell (translated from Greek or Hebrew) as a grave, big cave down in the earth, etc. There is, though, reference to a consuming fire (grk gahenna) what will consume (aka lake of fire...after final great white throne judgement - following millenial reign of Christ on earth)..not with red horned beings with pitchforks or turning people on a spit. All myth with no biblical basis. Just as going to heaven is a widespread deception. Scriptures speaks of those who sleep until the ressurrections. Yes, two. Very clear scripture states no man has ascended to heaven. Gods kingdom will be set up on this earth, with a new heaven and earth following the millenial reign of Christ.

Brad,
I think the standard American concept of "Hell" has more to do with Dante and Milton than with either Hebrew or Christian theology. We seem to be a very visual and literal-minded people.

Rabbi,

The books that you have written pertaining to Kabbalah indicate that your beliefs about Hell are quite different than what most Americans would think about Hell.

Brad

It is not possible for a man to know the true value of things. The Spirit of God knows the value of things so trust in the Spirit is the way of true faith.How much we are willing to allow the Spirit to lead will decide what priority the Spirit has in our lives.

Emily Dickenson wrote this poem about Heaven:

What is — “Paradise”—
Who live there—
Are they “Farmers”—
Do they “hoe”—
Do they know that this is “Amherst”—
And that I—am coming—too—

Do they wear “new shoes”—in “Eden”—
Is it always pleasant—there—
Won’t they scold us—when we’re hungry—
Or tell God—how cross we are—

You are sure there’s such a person
As “a Father”—in the sky—
So if I get lost—there—ever—
Or do what the Nurse calls “die”—

I shant walk the “Jasper”—barefoot—
Ransomed folks—won’t laugh at me—
Maybe—“Eden” a’nt so lonesome
As New England used to be!