What freedoms will we lose next?

To all monotheists: Will you stop freaking out, please? It only says that bombing people 'works.'

If chaos and war and confusion is what you want, that is.

People who are trying to make this about Obama claim that it's somehow contradictory to say, 'You have the right to do this, but please don't' are the ones who've *always* tried to 'damn Obama whatever he does.'

CIANWN:

Without going into the details, there is world of difference between the concept of Jewish "Halakhah" and Islamic "Din" or "Deen". But far more importantly, the Jewish history of the last couple of thousand years did not permit Rabbi's to exercise any temporal powers to speak of. On the other hand, the Sultan or the Calipha always had to deal with the Mullah or the Imam in Islam. In all Islamic countries today, bar none, including the most secular Turkey, the power of the Masjid (Mosque) is ascendant and there is absolutely no intellectual argument against implementing Sharia. The secular elites know that would be a disaster but they have no argument against the Mullahs that the laws of the
Quran should rule the state.

Akafir,

I think you are either generalizing too much, or you honestly don't understand that much about religions outside of Christianity. To claim that Islam is the only religion that views itself as a "complete way of life" is incorrect.

Traditionally, rabbinic Judaism has also viewed itself as a complete way of life. The post-Tanakh writings, most notably the Talmud, strive to remind Jews that every aspect of life from the most seemingly-insignificant action to the largest festival is governed by the Torah. There is no sphere of live that does not include religious overtones. These writings and their interpretations are designed to be a guide to everything one might do, and to inspire those people who do or consider things that haven't been addressed, to consult those knowledgeable about the laws.

Hemant don't be silly. No one is challenging the religious freedom.

"Still, the people who want Park51 (which would contain a mosque) to be built are not those terrorists nor do they support them."

Quoting the Economist does not make your statement true. Why did you not quote the Imam himself? Is he a supporter? Yes he is.

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Rauf is a permanent trustee of an Islamic Cultural Center (ICC) which his father founded in New York City. Until September 28, 2001 -- seventeen days after 9/11 -- the ICC employed Imam Sheik Muhammad Gemeaha, who later said that “only the Jews” could have perpetrated the 9/11 attacks; that if Americans only knew about this Jewish culpability, “they would have done to Jews what Hitler did”; and that Jews “disseminate corruption in the land” and spread “heresy, homosexuality, alcoholism, and drugs.” Gemeaha’s successor at the ICC, Omar Saleem Abu-Namous, said there was no “conclusive evidence” proving that Muslims were responsible for 9/11.

In a 60 Minutes interview that aired on September 30, 2001, Rauf said that the 9/11 attacks were part of a larger Islamic “reaction against the U.S. government politically, where we [the U.S.] espouse principles of democracy and human rights, and [yet] where we ally ourselves with oppressive regimes in many of these countries.” "I wouldn't say that the United States deserved what happened," Rauf elaborated, "but United States policies were an accessory to the crime that happened." Rauf further stated that “because we [Americans] have been accessory to a lot of innocent lives dying in the world,” it could be said that “[i]n fact, in the most direct sense, Osama bin Laden is made in the USA.”
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Islam is a "complete way of life" and not merely a religion like Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, etc. That is what ALL Muslims scholars agree upon because that is what the Quran says. That means Islam incorporates within it a political ideology and rejects any attempt to separate religion from state. In islam Masjids have been built to celebrate Victories over the Kafirs, and to pretend ignorance about that is stupid. The Masjid that Imam Rauf wants can be built elsewhere. How far? Why not where he wanted to build it first (23rd street) and could not because he was unable to find the financing then. Now he has $100 million dollars?

Hemant, great stuff as always. It really, truly is a simple legal issue. The folks wanting to build this community center have paid their money, are obeying zoning laws, etc. and can legally build there. The end. If we stop something simply because we disagree with it, then precedent is set and we're all well and truly screwed. I don't break the law in any sense more extreme than jaywalking or going 5 mph over the speed limit on the freeway, but I do a lot of things other people might find in bad taste (I have a love for irreverence, what can I say?), and if I were prohibited from doing those perfectly legal things with my own free time, it would surely be a violation of my rights. And it's the same argument here.

I don't support religion at all. I believe it to be silly, deluding, and oftentimes dangerous. I do, however, support the right of each and every person to believe whatever they want as long as it does not harm the rights of any other person. And the right not to be offended isn't a real thing, by the way.

And to Johna's comparison of building a statue of the person who defiled one's daughter next to her headstone: That argument doesn't work. In order to be a valid comparison, they'd have to be planning to build a memorial to the hijackers or Osama bin Laden, etc. The argument you're making is more along the lines of stopping a monument to any Scandinavian person because the bad guy was from Norway. (I know it's not a perfect analogy, but you get the gist)

-Keith

Well said, Hemant. As an atheist, I believe it is in bad taste, but they should have the right to build the mosque. Just because people find something offensive does not mean other people should lose their rights. Eric Robert Rudolph's motivation to bomb Centennial Park during the 1996 Olympics was his Christian based opposition to abortion. Does that mean we should ban the building of all churches in downtown Atlanta? Of course not. To all of those who trying to prevent the mosque from being built at Ground Zero and have not opposed building churches near sites of Christian terrorism: you are hypocrites.

Todd Stiefel

Johna, as I understand it you are guaranteed religious freedom by the constitution. So you (and all citizens of the USA) can pray in schools if you choose to do so, to whichever god or gods you like. That is not to say that the school itself, as a public body, can institute those prayers as this would obviously give official favour to one religion over another and violate the aforementioned religious freedom of anyone who happened to follow a different god or did not believe in any gods. The constitution guarantees them religious freedom too. That is precisely why if any religious groups would be permitted to build in this area then all religious groups (even the ones you don't much like) must be equally permitted.

@johna: "Why can't I pray in your school and exercise my religion if you can go off and build a mosque in the middle of a memorial for those that died as a result of this other religion?"

Because a public school is a government entity, while a mosque is non-profit privately held corporation. It's a tragedy that you can't see the difference.

"I think the people that have no morals, ethics, or conscience should lose the right to write articles and express opinions, vote, and speak in public."

I agree with this, actually. Here's the thing, Johna - I think that people who have no problem with the vast majority of human beings burning in hell for eternity are devoid of morals. In other words, I don't think conservative Christians should be allowed to vote. Looks like neither of us gets what s/he wants.

Hemant, great article. You're right; it's purely a matter of legality. Of course, the fundies and right wing extremists who love to troll these threads don't have the intellectual acuity to understand this - or much else.

I mistakenly forgot to answer "How far away", that was a very good question - how far away would you want protesters to stand and shout out that they hate atheists and you're all going to burn in hell during your mother/daughter/father/brother's funeral? How about far enough away so you can handle your business and pay your respects without having to deal with disrespectful people, or people just "exercising their rights" while you're trying to grieve? Would that seem fair? How far away would you want someone who murdered your family members to build their house from yours? How close to your desk while you're at work would you like me to stand and shout prayers to Jesus while you're trying to just get your job done for the day? Why can't I pray in your school and exercise my religion if you can go off and build a mosque in the middle of a memorial for those that died as a result of this other religion?

I see both sides of the issue, and prevailing wisdom above the political and media, and religious controversy does say find another place...Think about it: If some perverted wack-job rapist brutally murdered or defiled your daughter or someone else you love, would you want a statue honoring him placed in the same cemetery where your family member was buried? "Two headstones away"? You get what I'm saying, and so do the polls - they have a right to build it, but should they? NO. Out OF COMMON SENSE AND RESPECT. It's really not a "Muslim hater" thing - it's same thing with protesters gathering at funerals - do they have a right to? Yes, but out of respect should they? NO, NO, NO. People are so concerned with the letter of the law we're literally losing our humanity, and our freaking minds. There should be a law against following the law to the point where we uphold disgustingness and total depravity vs. very basic human compassion. Folks, that IS hollowed ground...if Hitler were alive today and wanted to, would we let him come start a cultural center here in the middle of a community of Jews??? How far do you want to go? If Islam is a so-called peaceful religion, why would Muslims put up such a fight over a space that is obviously causing so much upset in the community???? UGHHHH people are just so sick!!!!

Oh yeah...and as for the "freedoms we will lose next", I think the people that have no morals, ethics, or conscience should lose the right to write articles and express opinions, vote, and speak in public. The same "atheists" that are cheering on the building of the mosque here are the ones that ripped praying out of public schools because they were "offended", but are now supporting building a Mosque on GROUND ZERO. Go figure...

I'm proud of, and impressed by atheists who have integrity and who understand the principle and the genius of the First Amendment. They have the courage of their convictions.

To those others, believers or non, who would stop this mosque, community center whatever you want to call it, I would only ask,

HOW DO YOU PROPOSE TO STOP IT?

Would you pass a local law that no mosques or any Islamic structure of any kind be built within X radius of your "hallowed ground"? How big is X? Then when that law is immediately declared unconstitutional, would you toss out the First Amendment? Don't worry, it's been done several times before, always by people consumed with fear, hatred and ignorance. We call them bigots. And bigots have always been lead by opportunistic politicians who take advantage of their sheep-like nature. We call them demagogues. In other parts of the world, the most successful demagogues are also called dictators.

Those who want to stop the mosque by waving the words "Sharia law" around like some scary Halloween paper spook should actually try thinking their ideas all the way out to their conclusion. If you have your way, we will have the American version of Sharia law. If this becomes a country where one religion can be banned from free expression, then it will be a country where another religion can be forced upon everyone. You're naive, silly children if you think that you will somehow not be crushed by the very tyranny that you would wield against others.

It doesn't matter if the mosque is a good idea or not. It doesn't matter if it's "insensitive" or not. It doesn't matter if it's a good or a bad P.R. move. I, an atheist, don't want to live in a country where a mosque cannot be built wherever the hell local zoning laws would permit any other house of worship, or an atheist lecture hall, or even a headquarters for demagogue-following sheep. I will stand shoulder-to-shoulder with those superstitious Muslims, to help defend building their community center with the big room for worshiping their ridiculous Great No-Show, and then I will continue to encourage them and everybody else to lose interest in all of the Great No-Shows ever invented by man. After a few lifetimes, if that building is still standing, maybe it'll be turned into a community center with a big room for aerobics and lectures on rational living. The point is that it will have been freely chosen, not forced by bigotry-driven tyranny.

"It behoves every man who values liberty of conscience for himself, to resist invasions of it in the case of others; or their case may, by change of circumstances, become his own."--Thomas Jefferson
In a letter to Benjamin Rush (1803)

I have a couple of things to say. First is a question to your statement, "They want justice, too." I am curious, after almost 10 years and thousands more deaths of innocent people, what does justice look ...like to those still hurting over 9/11? Is justice even possible in reality? Shouldn't we put this to bed already and get on with our lives?

The second thing I'd like to say about this is about the whole distance from WTC. 4 blocks seems to be the magic number. I was just reading another article on another blog where Sharif El-Gamal, the property owner, said the following, "Warren Street is four blocks north of the World Trade Center site. So, until May of 2009, over a thousand Muslims had been praying at a mosque on Fridays a mere four blocks from "Ground Zero" and apparently nobody noticed or cared. But somehow, the prospect of Muslims gathering to pray two blocks away from the WTC constitutes some kind of national crisis."

I completely share in his incredulity over this controversy and will even go so far as to call this whole thing an artificial controversy.

They have a legal right to build the mosque there. Doing so is insensitive in the extreme. Coming from a hypersensitive religion, this is ironic.
They have been told that it will cause distress, and either ignore that distress or don't care about it.
Actually, there would be an appropriate distance that could be determined. Take a vote or poll on various distances, and when the number of people who would be distressed decreases to a steady low number, that would be the distance. I'm guessing half a mile would greatly relieve the distress.
Written by a fellow atheist.....

I'm glad to see more and more people standing up and expressing these sentiments. Reasonable people need to fight back against those who refuse to understand that America isn't just about rights for people who agree with you or act like you. Defending the freedoms of people you disagree with is just as core to the American identity and experience as exercising your own.

I hope that more people will read pieces like Mr. Mehta's and come to realize that the kind of fearmongering used against the Park51 project is ugly, disgusting, and patently un-American.

I have yet to hear anyone who's against building the mosque give any legal basis for preventing it. And, ironically, in their next breath they'll talk about freedom and the constitution. I don't want it built...I don't want any religious buildings built anywhere, but I understand if I want freedom I have to give it to everyone else!

I think the problem here is blindly declaring Islam a religion, just like any other religion, when in fact it is a totalitarian ideology bent on World domination and subjugation. Nazism was the same. Would we support the building of a Nazi community centre at Auschwitz? These so called 'moderate' Muslims are complicit with at atrocities committed the World over through their silence. Where are the throngs of outraged 'moderate' Muslims decrying terror in the name of their Religion? They were everywhere when their precious paedophile prophet (who never prophesied anything) appeared in a Danish cartoon! 62 people died as a result of these spontaneous expressions of outrage yet not one of them is prepared to condemn Hamas as a terrorist organisation, not even the main protagonist of the Ground Zero Mosque, Rauf himself! You ask how far from Ground Zero would be acceptable, well how about Saudi Arabia or at least out of the shadow the World Trade Centre would have cast had it still been sanding.

Dan Tyson.
Sydney, Australia.