All Comments (14)

You know, it's kind of interesting how many 'Moral absolutists' seem to believe 'Everyone lies,' yet use indignance about lying wherever they find it convenient.

In fact, you can get through life without lying, if, say, you don't believe 'We're all sinners and must be condemned and forgiven but can't help it, everyone does it.

So happens that not-lying isn't renumerated by the self-righteous and wealthy, but, it can actually be done.

I live by pretty specific rules about that sort of thing.

If you can't get through your daily life without lying a lot, well. Here we are, aren't we.

An all-or-nothing approach to the morality of lying ends up promoting lying. If you believe that "all politicians lie," then you cease to discriminate among degrees of truthfulness among politicians. You end up voting for the politician that tells you the lies you want to hear. May the best liar win.

Of course all politicians lie, and so does everyone lie save certain autistics. The real issue is how much does this politician lie about things that matter? Lying about one's sexual indiscretions does not matter much. Bush, by contrast, lies prolifically about things that matter, even when he does not need to lie.

We can do better. All three major candidates to be his successor are far more truthful. Making the distinction is important.

I know it seems to shock and offend a lot of people to the point of obsession, but I don't suppose we could get over the fact that Muslims exist, and maybe have a conversation? :)

http://www.freethinker.co.uk/2008/02/27/laughing-religion-off-the-planet-an-interview-with-pat-condell/

Time for a giggle. Click above.

The Quran is not the best example of honesty, truth, and justice. Its basic premise of Allah and Allah's final prophet is one big lie.

Understand this, Tim? A white Evangelical America that accused *me* of being responsible for 9/11 for not being bashed *enough* by white Evangelicals for being queer and Pagan, freaks out cause a man who says entirely *different* went to a church where a pastor once said, rhetorically, 'In this case, don't say God Bless America, say, God Damn America,'

...Well, the people who buy 'Left Behind' books by the hundreds of *millions* suddenly freak out about someone *black* knowing someone who said, 'God Damn America?'

Pardon if I'm unsympathetic.

Maybe I'm just a little numb to being called 'Damned.'

But if you don't like it so much, consider how your neighbor would want to be treated.

" Tim:

One of the biggest liars of all time is Mohamed. You believe him so you have no credibility. Obama attended a church full of hate and lies for 20 years and now says he did not know of these things. He also has no credibility. You believe Mohamed so it is no surprise that you also believe Obama."

I attended a church that said I was an incorrigibly-damned and degenerate sinner who's going to Hell, anyway, whatever else I do, for twenty years, and still remain friends with people who say the same.

Funny, but somehow I didn't end up right-wing and racist and religiously-bigoted.

But I suppose, Tim, that by your standards, I'm still 'corrupted' by them, whatever I say.

What shall I do, move to an island?

When I was a young voter, I was greatly impressed with Gary Hart's idealism. His positions appealed to me and I was prepared to vote for him in the primaries. That was all ruined by his claim that he was not having an affair, and his challenge to the media to catch him if he were. Which, of course, they did, exposing him not only as a cheat, but as a liar. Needless to say, Mr. Hart lost my vote.

***Not because he was having an affair***

--

******God knows enough of us have *succumbed* to that temptation*****

--

*but because he lied about it.*

If he lied about one thing, I reasoned, how could I be sure all the rest of his positions were true reflections of his personal sentiment? I wasn't about to vote for someone I couldn't trust to work toward all the wonderful things he was proposing.

--------------------

I'm sure you tell the public, especially the Muslims who attend your Friday prayer, *honestly* about how often and with whom you *God knows enough of us have *succumbed* to that temptation.* Muslims would have no problem with that as long as you were being honest with them.

Some poetry for Clinton and Obama to peruse. Ditto for the rest of us.

"Born on the Nile River in Sudan, KOLA BOOF is an exciting new voice in literature. Her remarkably beautiful (but controversial) poetry collection, "NILE RIVER WOMAN" is now available at Amazon.Com. Some of the classic poems from that collection are printed right on this page!! Also see her tribute to her slain friend, Theo Van Gogh: poetwomen.50megs.com/catalog.html

Published in Africa/1997:

"BINT IL NIL"

I want a new religion.
The one our mothers had in the river.

I am tired of Jesus and Mohammed.
I am tired of man's foot.
I am tired of the White man's mother.
I am weary...from doing nothing about it.

I want my own religion.
I want my real mother.

Africa, I want you.

Make me pregnant with God.
Our own perfect babies...Black as perfection.
Tall as the sky. Healthy as light sparkling on
clear water.

I want my own religion.
I want my own voice.
I want my own face.
I want my own hair.
I am Naima/the one who is victorious
the one

who is praying

One of the biggest liars of all time is Mohamed. You believe him so you have no credibility. Obama attended a church full of hate and lies for 20 years and now says he did not know of these things. He also has no credibility. You believe Mohamed so it is no surprise that you also believe Obama.

Very well said PaganPlace. Either we have the government by the people for the people or we do not. If we do, then that implies that we the people are both capable and willing.

Not necessarily wanting to confuse your point, I don't think the example of Senator Hart is apt. Here's why. In a case involving an unprecedented invasion of privacy, it is perfectly understandable that he did not come forth with the whole truth. Truly, it was no one's business, and he had a right to try to protect others, who were not in public life. He did admit to and apologize doing harm to his marriage, but he refused to identify how and when. That is not a lie.

Now, twenty years have passed, and we can examine whether the media-driven frenzy over that incident was warranted. In retrospect, it is quite clear that by playing god back then, the media denied us a great leader at a time when we needed him.

Nevertheless, Senator Hart has continued his exemplary citizenship and public service, and has demonstrated over and over his brilliance and prescience on a myriad of important national security and other public issues. Also, he and his only wife will soon celebrate their 50th wedding anniversary.

Paganplace, Bush doesn't do "whatever he pleases even when he knows the whole country doesn't want him doing a thing," nor will the next President we elect, nor any after that, unless the Constitution is altered. This is due to the fact the Congress actually decides what we do or don't do, and the Congress does what its constituents demand of it. The OVERWHELMING public outcry was for war in 2003, and at some point in the future (clearly not now, since no Congressman or woman will put forth a bill for unconditional full and immediate withdrawal due to the tremendous unpopularity of that potential stance), it will be peace.

For the record, I don't trust any politician who has risen to the levels of McCain, Obama, or Clinton to do anything other than the will of that to which they are beholden, whomever or whatever those entities may be.

"Indeed, much of the apathy of the American voter can be laid at the feet of dishonest politicking. Many a non-voter has said to me "Why bother? They say what they think you want to hear during the campaign, and do what they like when they get in office."

I think much of this also has to do with people seeming to have swung to the unspoken idea that we're electing a King rather than a president, and instead of wanting to think about policy decisions, it *does* come down to whose character gets smeared the least.

It's on the electorate to do better, not just to choose the right candidate, but also to *hold them to their promises and the will of the people, too, where appropriate. After eight years of a President who does whatever he pleases even when he knows the whole country doesn't want him doing a thing, perhaps we've forgotten some basics.