All Comments (69)

Most natural theologicans think that Satan's sin was his refusal to bow before the new Adam Jesus Christ - the Son of God and therefore true God and true man. God would never ask an angel to bow before a mere man. That would be like asking us to bow before a snail. - Such an act would be unintelligible and God is the essence of intelligibility - all-knowing and all-loving.

Americanism vs. Islamism

http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=14038&t=Americanism+vs.+Islamism%3A+A+personal+perspective

Indian Institute of Islamic Studies

http://www.csss-isla.com/IIS/aboutus.php

Vicky Twisted- please make a note of this:

"Revealing truth is not hateful. Revealing truth is liberating. What motivates your constant lies, half truths, and dissembling? Once you know- you have taken the first step towards freedom."

Few people can be happy unless they hate some other person, nation or creed.[B RUSSEL]

These are articles from Indian Institute Of Islamic Studies And Research Centre

The Institute had reformist ends and was set up by those who felt the need for rethinking issues in Islam.

The Institute of Islamic Studies was founded to project Islam and Islamic values in the correct Qur'anic perspective and to emphasise funamental Islamic values of justice, equality, peace, compassion, human dignity, freedom of conscience, inter-faith understanding and wisdom.

The Institute of Islamic Studies has been striving ever since to disseminate these values through its writings, publications, seminars and other intellectual events. It has evoked wide appreciation throughout the world.

The IIS is also committed to promote inter-faith harmony and organises inter-faith dialogues involving religious leaders of various communities.

The IIS is also deeply committed to women's rights and believes that the Qur'an promotes the concept of sexual equality in unambiguous terms. It holds various events to promote women's rights and stands for reformulation of issues relating to man-woman relationship on the basis of pronouncements of the Qur'an and in the light of democratic values and human rights.

Victoria- Rather than admitting your lies- you become a hypocrite.

You say- "i dont se wikipedia as a study guide for my religion, or- well- anything at all" but fail to mention this when Eboo Patel uses wiki as a reference? Many posters have noted your propensity to dissemble. You ask for someone to point to one lie and this is just one small lie among many you post to this board. Why must you attempt to cover a small lie with greater lies and rebukes?

Remember this, Vicky?

"In their heart, there is a disease and God increases their disease, a painful doom is theirs because they lie"(2: 10).

"God knows that you are His Messenger while God testifies that hypocrites are liars" (63: 1).

"Verily, truth leads to virtue and virtue leads to paradise and a true man continues to speak truth until he becomes the most truthful person. Lies lead to evil and evil leads to hell and a liar continues to lie till he is listed as a highest ranking liar before God" (Bukhari).

i dont use wikipedia as a valid source-

MR PATEL used wikipedia in his article- i was commenting on the ARTICLE-

however, when mr mark pointed out the same thing- i used many other posts of more valid origin-
and responded with this

"HI MR MARK-
thanks for your reasonable response-

i also view wikipedia with a jaded eye as a source of any validity-
however- the definition seems apt- so despite its origins- the definition itself seems worthy enough to use-"

to use wikipedia as a source for religious instruction- seems to be a rahter lazy approach to n=ones instruction

i have posted about my disregard for wikipedia countles times on these threads- apparently youve also missed that.

ive also used wikipedia but only in conjunction with other more substantial sources, as a support but not SINGLE source.

your statement- "You are a LIAR in the EXTREME"

seems a bit overstated.

to further punch your opinion home by making accusations of falsely posting anonymously-
and pushing the intitial ad hominem to NOTORIOUS liar is pretty far fetched.

i guess you will remain angry because i made the revealing correlation between your self professed revelatory independent conclusions and their identical similarity to the paper by mr smith-

it is what it is richard-

no, i do not post anonymously, and if it occurs through my own carelessness, i quickly rectify it.

however, if i HAD mnade that post, i would be proud to take credit for it as it is an exellent post.

however, i cannot take that credit.

"Verify if post of January 25, 2008 11:56 PM is by Imam Pamela K Taylor."

Anonymous-

Anyone may have posted it -including notorious LIAR Victoria.

I do know it is cut&pasted from:

http://www.dawoodi-bohras.com/

Hope this helps..

The life of the founder should be considered the highest practice of the religion. By that criteria Mohammad who established political rule in Medina after having little success at conversion through peaceful means in Mecca for twelve years, preached with an army since his migration to Medina when the Islamic era began, had many wives after the age of fifty, married a six year old at the age of fifty and consummated the marriage when the child was only nine years old, made divorce ludicrously easy thus leaving many children without access to both biological parents, had his opponents killed, taught that idolatory is worse than bloodshed...is not trivia.

Verify if post of January 25, 2008 11:56 PM is by Imam Pamela K Taylor.

A smart case by a lawyer for Islam, however a case that could be easily squashed by a good judge of religions familiar with the Scripture of Judaism and Christianity and can trace the Quranic texts with precision; can understand the political context of Mohammad's time without Islamic brainwashing; can understand the meaning of spiritual revelations and the misuse of them even by someone who might call himself a prophet. Religious revelation must of necessity be put to the test of reason. Since Islam has borrowed heavily from the revelations of Jewish and Christian Scripture, and has merely adapted it to form a political system, it must pass through the test of Jewish and Christian revelation. The Islamic revelation seems to be more like a handbook for a ruler seeking political conquest in the name of religion. There is little reference to a personal religion, the emphasis is more on how a state should legislate religion for a dissent free rule.

The Qur’an is a revealed scripture of religion of Islam and one of the greatest revealed scriptures. It is in Arabic language and according to the Qur’an itself it is in language easily understandable. Thus the Qur’an says, “ And certainly We have made the Qur’an easy to remember, but is there anyone who will mind?” (54:17). But the Qur’an is easy to understand and also difficult to comprehend in places. The Qur’an itself says, “he it is Who has revealed the Book to thee; some of its verses are decisive (muhkamatun) – they are the basis of the book – and others are allegorical. Then those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part of it which is allegorical (mutashabihat), seeking to give it (their own) interpretation. And none knows its interpretation save Allah, and those firmly rooted in knowledge. They say (those firmly rooted in knowledge) it is all from our Lord. And none mind except men of reason and understanding.” (3:6)

Thus it is clear from above verse of the Holy Qur’an that there are passages which are allegorical and liable to different interpretation. Its true interpretation is known either to Allah or to those who are firmly rooted in knowledge and who believe in revelation from the core of their heart. However, there are those who do not believe in revelation sincerely and uses such allegorical verses for misleading others and for spreading confusion. It is those people who are perverse.

The great revealed book like the Qur’an cannot be without allegorical verses as it deals with complex situations, metaphysical questions, nature of creator and creations and other unknown and unseen realities. In such situations it is very difficult to do without allegories but these allegorical verses too, are pregnant with meaning but also, as the Qur’an says, liable to be misinterpreted by those whose hearts are not straight and who mean mischief. But also, there are those who are not only very sincere in belief but also people of knowledge – al-rasikhun fi’ al-‘ilm who, because of their firm faith in the Book and their depth of knowledge, understand the real import of these verses and explain it to others.

But, despite the firm faith and depth of knowledge al-rasikhun fi’ al-‘ilm are likely to differ with each other in understanding these verses because of differing socio-cultural background on one hand, and, because of differing circumstances and changing social scene and ever going on developments. These could be sincere differences in interpretation. The Qur’an denounces only those who intend to use allegorical verses for misleading others and for spreading confusion.

For revealed books like the Qur’an (or other scriptures too) it is necessary to start with to have faith – what the Qur’an calls iman bi’ al-ghayb. But – and it is also important to note – the Qur’an does not demand blind faith. It speaks of ‘reasoned faith’ which satisfies the people of understanding – u’lil albab. Literally u’lil albab means people of essence and since reason is essence of mind, people of reason are called u’lil albab. Thus Qur’an does not demand from us to accept something just because it is revealed but also because it satisfies human reason. Human reason is also creation of Allah and revelation is also from Him. Some might object that how revelation could be judged by human reason? Apparently this seems to be a valid objection. But little reflection will show that it is not so. Gold is always tested by touchstone but it is no body’s case that touchstone is more important than gold. Without touchstone we cannot make sure that gold is genuine. Similar is the relationship between reason and revelation. Revelation is very important for human guidance from Allah yet human beings must satisfy themselves before accepting the revelation that it is genuine.

The relationship between reason and revelation is, however, little more complex than it appears to us. As gold has its inner worth and its inner worth can be appreciated by only those who have to only understanding but also inner senses to appreciate its inner worth without which it is nothing more than a yellow metal. Similarly, the revealed knowledge also has inner worth which can be appreciated by only those who not only have sensory perceptions but also heart and soul to appreciate its worth. The Qur’an repeatedly refers to this fact.

There are people who have eyes to see and ears to hear but still cannot appreciate the worth of revealed knowledge. In other words mere sensory perceptions, though extremely important in their own way, are not sufficient for judging the worth of revelation. The Qur’an describes them as summun, bukmun, ‘umyun (2:18) i.e. deaf, dumb and blind who return not (to the truth, to the guidance). Thus sense perceptions are necessary but not sufficient for appreciation of true guidance (from Allah). It needs real appreciation from one’s heart and soul. However, the relationship between revelation and its proper appreciation on one hand, and that between revelation and reason, on the other, is so delicate that ordinarily one can be easily deceived by those who mislead people for their own vested interests.

Thus appreciation of true revelation is not possible by ignorant and those without the faculty of intellect. The Qur’an thus lays stress on both reason and revelation and also it says that real interpretation of those verses which are allegorical is possible only by al-rasikhun fi’ al-‘ilm (those firmly rooted in knowledge). Thus knowledge and learning is of utmost importance for proper appreciation of the revelation.

It is also important to note that the Qur’an, though contained highest body of knowledge, was initially addressing those who were either illiterate (either Bedouins of desert or those of town like Mecca though rich and experienced yet intellectually far from accomplished or those who had recently migrated from desert for a settled life in urban areas) or semi-literate but experienced in financial matters. And initially main respondents to the Qur’anic message were mostly poor and illiterates. Thus its message had to be in a language which could be easily understood by these poor and illiterate people both of urban as well as desert areas. And hence the Qur’an says, “And certainly We have made the Qur’an easy to remember” (54:17)

But the Qur’an was not dealing with a static situation; it was dealing with dynamic and changing society which would need knowledge to deal with very complex situations. Hence allegorical verses pregnant with meaning were also needed and such verses could be dealt with only by those who had adequate knowledge and intellectual sophistication and accomplishments. Thus, though the Qur’an was dealing with very simplistic people it was not confining itself only to them. Its guidance had to transcend that situation.

In developing methodology of understanding the Qur’an it is very necessary to understand that a revealed scripture does not only deal with what is given but has to cater to what is to come. A religion (deen) is always spiritually transcendent i.e. going beyond the given situation. The vested interests oppose it precisely because it subverts the status quo. Wherever there are vested interests there are in built injustices what we call in modern politico-economic terminology structural injustices. A revealed scripture like the Qur’an has to address itself to these structural injustices and hence faces stiff opposition from the vested interests.

The pre-Islamic society in Mecca was controlled by rich traders on one hand, and, by priests (kahins) who were in collusion with these traders, on the other. While the rich traders were exploiting the poor of the Mecca and suppressing them by various means including through their illiteracy and superstitions. The kahins of Ka`aba were quite helpful in spreading superstitious beliefs and hence their collusion with rich and powerful tribal chiefs. The Qur’an addressed itself to correcting this ignoble state of affairs. This would not have been possible without spiritual renewal and without demolishing the bastion of tribal power – superstitions and social divisiveness perpetrated through various means one of which was idolatry (each tribe worshipping its own idol and developing set of superstitious beliefs around it).

The spiritual renewal was possible only through attacking ignorance, illiteracy, superstitions, divisiveness and socio-economic injustices. The Qur’an stressed belief in unity of God (tawhid) and thus demolished in one stroke tribal divisiveness. Thus tawhid, if followed in its true spirit, could accomplish many goals at a time – religious as well as social. It was through the concept of and belief in tawhid that all superstitions woven around tribal idols were demolished. It was the concept of tawhid that dealt a fatal blow to divisiveness in the society and brought about a strong sense of unity of all human beings as creatures of one God. Thus the concept of tawhid had great social potentialities which began to unfold themselves once people embraced it.

To empower weaker sections of society was also a very important task without which neither injustices could be removed from social structure nor the goal of social and spiritual renewal could be achieved. And to empower the weaker sections of society and also for their spiritual renewal imparting knowledge was highly necessary and hence the very first revealed verse of the Qur’an begins with the word iqra’ (i.e. recite, read or in other words acquire knowledge). All sociologists know that knowledge is power and it is knowledge, which empowers the weaker sections of the society. The vested interests exploit the weak through their ignorance. It is only through knowledge that they can be empowered. And through knowledge they will be liberated from oppression and exploitation and it is through knowledge that their spiritual renewal will be possible and it is knowledge that will liberate them from superstitions.

Thus the two major themes of the Qur’an, apart from others, are tawheed and ‘ilm (i.e. Unity of God and knowledge). Both these were powerful weapons to unite people and to liberate them from superstitions and oppression. No wonder than that the weaker sections of society and the youth who are eager for change responded to the message of Islam most enthusiastically.

The liberation from all sorts of exploitation and oppression being a major theme of the Qur’an, women’s liberation also became a priority for the Qur’an. Women were among the most oppressed sections of society in the pre-Islamic era. The burial of girl child was most symbolic of this oppression against women. The Qur’an denounces this practice in no uncertain terms. Those who bury the girl child alive will be questioned on the day of judgement. “And when one buried alive is asked? For what sin she was killed?” (81:9) Unfortunately the practice is till there in many parts of the world including certain parts of India.

Women were given same status as men in every respect. If anyone has doubt let him refer to the verse 33:35. Yes, it is true there is also the verse 4:34 which is often quoted by the orthodox as pronouncement of inferiority of women. It is in respect of such verses that the question of methodology of understanding the Qur’an arises. The Qur’an is committed to create a new ethics, a new liberated society transcending the given situation. The Qur’an describes the given situation as well as guides the faithful as to what ought to be. While the verse 4:34 is the narrative of what is in the society 33:35 is about what ought to be. It is unfortunate that the Muslim world by and large has not understood the significance of the verse 4:34.

The situation in the Muslim world reflects status quo rather than the liberative pronouncements of the Qur’an. Women do not enjoy the status the Qur’an has given them in Muslim society today. However, the status quo is also justified by quoting verses like 4:34 instead of verses like 33:35 which represents the transcendent spirit of the Qur’an. But men which include most of the eminent theologians of the Muslim world were unwilling to concede this transcendent status to women and hence they stuck to the status quo in society. Even during the holy Prophet’s time we find companions of the Prophet debating the issue of status of women.

The other proof that the Qur’an treats men and women equally is that it makes it obligatory of both to enforce what is good and prevent what is evil. It is not only men who are charged with this important task but all faithfuls, including women, are required to fulfil this obligation. It is only through fulfilment of this obligation that a society can be completely transformed and women are equally responsible for this transformative project. It is on this basis that eminent jurist like Imam Abu Hanifa opined that a woman can also become qadi.

The Qur’an also describes men and women as each other’s friends. Thus the Qur’an says, “And the believers, men ad women, are friends (awliya`) one of another. They enjoin good and forbid evil and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, and obey Allah and His Messenger. As for these Allah will have mercy on them. One can easily see in this verse that both men and women have been given equal status and equal obligations and both will be equally be entitled to Allah’s mercy, if they fulfil their obligation and obey Allah and His Messenger. This verse is transformative in nature and is not mere narrative of what exists in the society. In evolving methodology of understanding the Qur’an such verses play very important role.

The Qur’an, in its all-normative pronouncements gives equal status to men and women. It is important to note that the Qur’an does not refer anywhere to creation of Eve (Hawwa) from the rib of the Adam, thus making her secondary to man. According to the Qur’an both man and woman have been created from nafsin wahidatin i.e. from one soul. Thus the Qur’an says, “O people, keep your duty to your Sustainer, Who created you from a single being and created its mate of the same (kind), and spread from these two many men and women. (emphasis added) (4:1)

This is quite an important pronouncement for equality of both the sexes. Both have been created from one nafs (soul, being, entity) and both are each others mates. It is important to note that the word for wife and husband in the Qur’an is zawja and zawj i.e. one of the couple which again is indicative of compete equality. There is no concept of husbanding in the Qur’an. Husband is zawj and wife is zawja, the faminine gender of zawj. There is no question of lording or husbanding over ones own mate. However, unfortunately the Muslims never adopted this culture of sexual equality. They relied more on hadith of doubtful authenticity rather than on clear and normative pronouncements of the holy Qur’an.

One cannot understand the real spirit of the Qur’an unless one understands its transformative spirit. It subverts the given and provides guidelines for what ought to be. It is precisely for this reason that the Qur’an, which is the main source of Islamic ethics lays so much emphasis on justice. Justice is very central to the Qur’anic ethics. Plato and his disciple are unable to reach any consensus on the exact concept of justice. In their society it was the concept of ‘might is right’ that seemed to work. But the Qur’anic concept of justice is just the opposite of this. The Qur’an maintains that justice be done even if it favours ones enemy or goes against ones closest relatives or against ones own self.

Thus the Qur’an uses two words for justice ‘adl and qist both implying balance in the system which is possible through justice. There are several verses in the Qur’an referring to justice. One is imperative: i`idalu (do justice it is closest to being pious,5:8). In another verse, also imperative, says, “Surely Allah enjoins justice and the doing of good (to others)…” (16:90). Yet another verse says, “O you who believe, be maintainers of justice, bearers of witness for Allah, even though it be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives – whether he be rich or poor, Allah has a better right over them both. So follow not (your) low desires, lest you deviate. And if you distort or turn away from (truth), surely Allah is ever aware what you do.” (4:135)

From these verses one can easily see how important it is to be just. It is very central to the Qur’anic ethics. However, the society is full of injustices of all kinds, be they distributive injustices or in the form of oppression and exploitation of the weak. Such social system as based on injustices cannot become stable. Oppression and exploitation or concentration of power in few hands will always lead to instability and conflict and conflict leads to violence. Such an unstable system generating causes for conflict is un-Qur’anic and un-Islamic. Justice is possible only when there is inner integrity of character and fearlessness. This fearlessness, in turn is possible only when one does not benefit from the status quo. All of us wink at injustices simply because we benefit from the established order.

Thus the Qur’an lays emphasis on the concept of i’man which, if one goes to the root meaning of the word, implies a feeling of inner security, inner contentedness. This inner contentedness and inner peace is possible if there is only fear of Allah and not fear of any worldly potentate. Worldly rulers are often oppressive, perpetrate injustices and hence are responsible for violence. Islam, which means establishment of peace, desires a social system free of violence by removing all forms of injustices from the world. Thus the Qur’an is basically subversive of all those systems based on injustice, exploitation and violence.

One who has faith in Qur’an can never tolerate any system which perpetrates injustices with the weaker sections of society. But the powerful vested interests resist such attempts to establish a just society with all their might and the result is violence. Thus when the Prophet of Islam and his companions tried to establish a just system and the unbelievers of Mecca, who were all rich traders, resisted this attempt and used violence to oppose with all vehemence to establish a just society through subversion of the powerful establishment.

Thus there is always tension in the society between those wanting to transform the society and those supporting the status quo. Transformation can hardly be peaceful. But it does not mean that violence is justified on the part of the oppressed. It is the oppressors who use violence. The Qur’an justifies violence only if it is defensive, not offensive. Jihad is nothing more than sincere efforts to promote good and banish evil, not to wage war for transformation. The concept of jihad is being grossly misused by some Muslims. In fact by using the slogan of jihad these Muslims are generating powerful resources to build powerful establishment – something totally anti-jihadic in spirit. Such cry for jihad is itself supportive of status quo. Real jihad is to establish a social system based on justice and free of all forms of exploitation.

Thus without developing such a methodology for understanding the Qur’an it will never be possible to practice Islamic ethics and morality. The Qur’an was revealed to the Messenger of Allah to subvert all those establishments based on exploitation and injustice and to establish a system humane, compassionate and sensitive to all forms of sufferings of humanity.

Unfortunately the powerful vested interests in the Muslim world are suing the Qur’an for reinforcing their own oppressive establishments through misinterpretations against which the Qur’an has clearly warned. Mutashabihati are overriding muhkamat. We must go back to muhkamat

verse on polygamy (4:3) is followed by the verse 4:1 which emphasises sexual equality in the words that ...”Lord Who created you from a single being (min nafsin wahidatin) and created its mate of the same (kind) and spread from these two many men and women...” and the verse 4:2 which talks of justice for orphans and widows. Then polygamy is permitted provided one marries with widows and orphans (and not any women) and there also justice with all wives is a must failing which one must marry only one. No one before had insisted on such conditionalities for plurality of wives. Thirdly, the verse 4:129 states that even if you desire you cannot do justice between wives and ends by saying that do not leave the one with total disinclination and incline towards the other leaving the first in suspense. If the verses 4:3 and 4:129 are read together polygamy is as good as not permissible

The other possible reason why the Quran is written in different styles could be due to the fact that material is taken from different books in the Jewish Scripture and the New Testament. The Jewish Scripture and the New Testament is written by several different people. Their narrative perspective is different as a result.

It is advisable to do a verse for verse cross reference of the Quran. Take verses from the Quran one by one and check for its origin in the Jewish Scripture and the New Testament. Mohammad admits that Allah gave the Psalms to David. Therefore the Psalms is a good place to begin cross referencing the Quran.

Victoria will recognize her posts-

"wikipedia is notoriously inaccurate k-
but the point is-
you are talking about what was in islam-

i am talking about what islam IS-

your concept of a triple mantra that magically dissolves a marriage is refuted by the muslim community worldwide-
in egypt several years back, there were some sheikhs arguing it was valid-
there was a worldwide consensus of muslim scholars that such an interpretation is quranically impossible.

you must have missed that memo.

it doesnt make me a liar, or patheitc or any other suc thing.

it simply makes you uninformed.

i dont se wikipedia as a study guide for my religion, or- well- anything at all." (1-23,10:17pm)

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/muslims_in_europe/all_comments.html

"Here is the Wikipedia definition of hate speech: “speech intended to DEGRADE, INTIMIDATE, or incite violence or PREJUDICIAL ACTION against a PERSON or GROUP of people based on their RACE, gender, age, ethnicity, nationality, RELIGION, sexual orientation, gender identity, disability, language ability, moral or political views, socioeconomic class, occupation or appearance (such as height, weight, and hair color), mental capacity and any other distinction-liability.”

to say mr patel's analogy is not a valid one
doesnt hold water-" (1-25,12:42pm)

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2008/01/our_faith_talk_is_in_the_gutte/all_comments.html

You say you do not use wikipedia as a source and within days you are using wiki to validate a point. Your cause is lost everytime you post. How can anyone believe someone who is known to lie?

Sorry Vicky, I don't believe you. You are a LIAR in the EXTREME.

you are most welcome to spend your day searching for any lie i have been accused of-

i only post under my name-
if i make an anonymous post, it is by accident and i come back and correct it when i discover it.

i dont kow where someone has posted in your name, but i dont do that-
good luck with your search
peace to you richard ricardo-

OK I get it. Victoria got caught in a few lies on another string.

Good try, Vicky.

I'd like to know who posted a "supposed" response from me and used another posters name. The depth of lying on this board is unbelievable!

Hey -good lying- did Victoria do this? Very clever..

"so your rebuttal is another cut and paste from the same site you used before?"

Victoria- I'm thanking you for providing me with a link to a thorough critique of the FLAWS in the Qur'an.

I'm thankful for the natural tendency of TRUTH to be revealed and the serendipity that my meager few questions were worded close enough to Joseph Smith's that you provided a link to his superior site. There seems to be an almost miraculous wind blowing through the cosmos to dismantle lies and half-truths so that only TRUTH remains.

You might have tried to answer my small questions, but you did not. And your response to me revealed a multitude of greater questions and your propensity to lie.

Typical of Victoria to interpret any criticism of the Quran or Sharia Law as personal attack of Muslims! In her brainwashed mindset she doesn't get what the non-Muslims are really talking about.

so your rebuttal is another cut and paste from the same site you used before?

although you claimed they were your own original thoughts- you use that site again?

we all have opinions ricardo/richard-
i have my own-
you have yours (or someone elses which is fine also)

i dont agree with the opinion of the author as it is speculation-

so peace to you then- we can agree to disagree

sorry you dislike muslims so much- i dont want to add to your dislike by arguing.

Vicky, I went to the link you provided and

BELIEVE ME if I had knowm of the MANY errors in the Qur'an I'd have formed a more well rounded post to move forward the assumption that Islam is FLAWED and NOT PERFECT.

Vicky, what about "The Missing Verses"?

"This then brings up another difficult problem: how can we be sure that what Zaid ibn Thabit included in his codice (or manuscript) contained the full revelation of Muhammad's revelation? The fact is we simply cannot. We are forced to rely on Muslim tradition to tell us. Yet, interestingly, it is Muslim tradition which informs us that Zaid himself initially cast doubt on his own codice."

AND

"The Verse on Stoning"

"Muslims maintains that key passages were missing from Zaid's text. The most famous is the verse of stoning. All the major traditions speak of this missing verse. According to Ibn Ishaq's version (pg. 684) we read:

"God sent Muhammad, and sent down the scripture to him. Part of what he sent down was the passage on stoning. Umar says, 'We read it, we were taught it, and we heeded it. The apostle [Muhammad] stoned, and we stoned after him. I fear that in the time to come men will say that they find no mention of stoning in God's book, and thereby go astray in neglecting an ordinance which God has sent down. Verily, stoning in the book of God is a penalty laid on married men and women who commit adultery."

AND

"Errors Found Within the Qur'an"

"For centuries Muslims have been taught to believe that the Qur'an has been preserved in its original Arabic form since the beginning of time itself, and preserved intact from the period of the "sending down" of the book to Muhammad, right on down till the present. They have been taught that the text which we read now was uniquely inspired, in that there were no intermediary agents who could possibly pollute the integrity of the script.

At the same time they have also been taught that this suggested textual perfection of the book proves that the Qur'an must be the Word of God, as no one but Allah could have created and preserved such a perfected text. This sentiment has become so strongly established in the Muslim world that one will rarely find a Muslim scholar willing to make any critical analysis of its content or of its structure, as to do so would usually be detrimental to his or her health. However, when an analysis is made by a Western scholar upon the Qur'an, that analysis is roundly castigated as being biased from the outset, and even "satanic," and therefore, unworthy of a reply.

But that does not stop the analysis from being undertaken, for the Qur'an when held up to scrutiny finds itself lacking in many areas.

As we have already discussed, we find problems with its sources, its collation, its literary makeup, its supposed uniqueness, and problems even with its content. It is not difficult to find numerous contradictions within the Qur'an, a problem which Muslims and the Qur'an has attempted to alleviate by conveniently allowing for the 'law of abrogation.' But even more devastating towards the integrity of this supposed perfect 'divine book,' are the numerous errors which are found in its pages. It is therefore to those errors which we will now turn in our continuing quest to ascertain whether, indeed, the Qur'an can claim to be the true, and "perfect" Word of God, as Muslims have so often maintained since the very inception of their faith."

That's some JUICY stuff. You say your are born in America- so you will understand when I say-

Vicky, people who live in a GLASS HOUSE should NOT throw stones. You don't answer the many questions raised because you can't answer.

Any reader here who knows nothing of the Qur'an or Islam and are concerned about the increasing worldwide Muslim violence and discord should check out this long and informative site:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

The Quran is supposed to be written in at least four different literary styles. Many different people are supposed to have written down what Mohammad recited. If Gabriel was speaking through Mohammad one would assume that a single style would be used as is the case in Scripture of other religions, each revelation following a single style. Only different authors write in different styles. The differences in style could reflect the different language skills of the writers who were employed by the politically powerful Mohammad and later by his politically powerful followers' court to put down the Quranic recitation in writing. Mohammad and his followers had all of Arabia at their political and religious disposal. That beautifully written Arabic emerged should not come as a surprise. The fact that there is no chronological or logical sequence to the verses and chapters in the Quran shows that the revelations were somewhat different to the way the Scripture is written in other religions. Clarity of thought, purpose and logical sequence can be assumed as a hallmark of God's revelation. Allah seems to be somewhat confused and seemed to change his mind at regular intervals or least Mohammad heard Allah somewhat wrong.

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

Hmm, sure is odd that you quote as being koranic inerrant from a reference with the conclusions noted above.

excerpt: " When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded."

hello richard-
well, i already posted it once, and the link twice-

heres from the link-

25. Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (one needs to ask why a man needs a concubine if not to satisfy his lust).
Furthermore, for those who are faithful lust is the primary, and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39).
Surely if lust is wrong on earth and hateful to a Holy God, it cannot be pleasing to him in paradise.

26. On that same note, wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), yet rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

here is your post- with identical references in parentheses-

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (why does a man need a concubine if not to satisfy his lust?).

Also, for those who are faithful- lust is the primary and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39). Surely if lust is condemned on earth and hateful to Allah, how can it be allowed and encouraged in paradise?

Also, if wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), why do rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise? (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)

January 21, 2008 5:15 PM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i already answered- but here you go once again-

79:40] As for the one who reverenced the majesty of his Lord, and enjoined the self from sinful lusts.
[79:41] Paradise will be the abode.

English (Yusuf Ali):
79:40 And for such as had entertained the fear of standing before their Lord's (tribunal) and had restrained (their) soul from lower desires,

the verses preceding and following this ayat dont say that lust is condemned.

this says that the reward of one who remebers and reveres ALLAH, and has restrained themselves from lower desires-sinful lusts- will be rewarded.

its the wine that does not make one lose ones senses- or dull ones perceptions that flows in paradise-

im starting to get the feeling you didnt really want answers but just posted rhetorical questions(in the sense of just wanting an excuse to posit your view without rebuttal)

ok then-
why would you call me vicky?

should i call you ricky?
are you trying to forge some rhyming bod or something-
call me mrs. a

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

The contemporary Joseph Smith as per your referenced study makes the following conclusions about Islam: http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

"In conclusion, while we can concede that the Qur'an is a fascinating book to study, it simply cannot maintain its status as the final Word of God it claims to be. The declaration of textual perfection by the Muslims simply do not stand up to any critical analysis of their content. As we have seen, the Qur'an carries numerous inconsistencies with the former scriptures, while its narratives and stories help to discredit its claim to be the true Word of God. Popular sentiment and unquestioning fanatical devotion by Muslims are simply not adequate as a proof for the Qur'an's authenticity. When we take a sober analysis of the sources of the Qur'an, we find conclusive evidence that the confidence of the Muslims for their scripture is simply unfounded.

It stands to reason that those whose responsibility it was to compile a "holy book" which could compete with the existing scriptures, would naturally turn to the myths and legends of the surrounding civilizations and borrow many of their stories. Due to the predominance of oral tradition in the 7th-9th centuries one can understand how many of the stories became embellished and distorted over time. It is these corrupted stories that we find all through the Qur'an, many of which were adapted from 2nd century Talmudic literature, which was popular amongst the Jews of that area. Consequently it is the glaring similarities which we find between the Qur'an and these errant sources which nullifies the claim that the Qur'an could hope to be the true Word of God. "

That looks a lot like:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

And a chapter on the Islamic required belief in "pretty thingies" called angels by some but "tinker bells" by most??

And a chapter about Islam being better known as the Religion of the Hallucinations???

And a chapter on the great plagiarizing of the ancients' codes and laws???

Hmmm, I see no chapters on "pretty wingie thingies" and the great hallucinations of one long-dead Arab.

Excellent link. Thank you, Victoria-

Anyone interested in reading a fascinating and thorough exposition of the Qur'an from a Christian/Western viewpoint should take a long look:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9tc.htm

THE QUR'AN
Apologetic Paper (Joseph Smith) - May 1995

A. Introduction

B. The Authority of the Qur'an

C. The Revelation of the Qur'an

D. The Inspiration of the Qur'an

1. To prove Muhammad's call to prophet-hood

2. To give him authority to warn people

3. Three methods by which Allah communicates to his creation

a. By direct inspiration

b. From behind a veil

c. Through a messenger (the implication is that of an angelic being).

4) How Muhammed received his revelations

E. The Qur'an's Supposed Distinctive Qualities

1. Its Holiness

2. Its Superior Style

3. Its Literary Qualities

4. Its Pure Arabic

F. The Qur'an's Supposed Universal Qualities

1. The Inferiority of Women in the Qur'an

2. The "Sword" found in the Qur'an

G. The Collation, or Collection of the Qur'anic Text

1. The Periods of Revelation

2. The Method of Collection

i. Zaid's Collection

ii. Competing Collections

3. The Standardisation of One Text

4. The Missing Verses

i.Sura 33:23

ii.The Verse on Stoning

5. The Variations Between the Codices

i. Abdullah ibn Mas'ud's Codex

ii. Ubayy Ka'b's Codex

6. Conclusions on the Collation of the Qur'anic Text

H. The Abrogation of Qur'anic Verses

I. Errors Found Within the Qur'an

1. Contradictions With the Bible Which Point to Errors:

i. Moses

ii. Yahya

iii. Trinity

iv. Ezra

2. Internal Contradictions Which Point to Errors

i. Mary & Imran

ii. Haman

3. Errors Which Contradict Secular and Scientific Data

i. Ishmael

ii. Samaritan

iii. Sunset

iv. Issa v. Mountains

vi. Alexander the Great

vii. Creation

viii. Pharaoh's Cross

ix. Other Scientific problems

4. Absurdities

i. Man's Greatness

ii. Seven Earths

iii. Jinns & Shooting Stars

iv. Solomon's power over nature

v. Youth and dog sleep 309 years

vi. People become apes

vii. Sodom & Gomorrah turned upside-down

viii. Jacob's smell & sight

ix. Night/Day/Sun/Moon are subject to man

5. Grammatical Errors

J. The Sources of the Qur'an

1. Stories Which Correspond With Biblical Accounts

i. Satan's Refusal to Worship Adam

ii. Cain and Abel

iii. Abraham

iv. Mt Sanai

v. Solomon and Sheba

vi. Mary, Imran and Zachariah

vii. Jesus's Birth

viii. Heaven and Hell

2. Stories Which do not Correspond with the Biblical Account

i. Harut and Marut

ii. The Cave of 7 Sleepers

iii. The Sirat

K. Conclusion

L. References

Word for Word?

REALLY VICKY?

Then get on your knees because a miracle has happened right here on the wapo faith boards.

I've never been to your link and I don't have time to look -so please do a cut and paste so we can check for accuracy (not that I'm doubting your "word 4 word" dontchaknow..)

And exactly who was that channeling through me?

Golly Gee -why not be like others and just try answering the questions I (we) posed?

And from the fruit of the date-palm and the VINE,you get out STRONG DRINK and wholesome food,behold,in this also is a sign for those who are wise.16.67

How can they interpret this verse.

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9d.htm

in case you doubt it- heres the link yet again

sorry richard- that was victoria -
i mistakenly forgot to put my name, and just went into answering.

richard- it IS a cut and paste-
its from a paper by joseph smith in 1995 which i linked-

its not your own construction, its word for word

you dont have to get personal or upset-

the answer was given to you-

i always give the respect of looking at links of people given them

it wasnt an accusation, but an observation based upon your cut and paste from the link-

here it is-
its number 25-
25. Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (one needs to ask why a man needs a concubine if not to satisfy his lust). Furthermore, for those who are faithful lust is the primary, and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39). Surely if lust is wrong on earth and hateful to a Holy God, it cannot be pleasing to him in paradise.

26. On that same note, wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), yet rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)

so, there you go-
you have the answers-

lets assume that they BECAME your questions-

you have your answer

MOODY =a fitting and appropriate name..

richard:

And every body can see your ability, here shown by YOU!!!!

Anonymous

WHO ARE YOU?

The questions I ask have been asked and discussed for many many years. If you have no answer.. why falsely accuse me of "cut and paste".

What is going on with making accusations? Muslims posting to this board seem unable to enter into discussion?

Anonymous-- stay that way..

Oh "Obfusing" Jihadist,

Ahh, yes indeed I do copy and paste but my copy is flawless plus we are counteracting the koran and bible thumping during the last 2000 years. We will therefore be counterthumping for awhile unless you and those like you finally see the light about the historic Mo and his copy and pasting scribes.

79:40] As for the one who reverenced the majesty of his Lord, and enjoined the self from sinful lusts.
[79:41] Paradise will be the abode.

English (Yusuf Ali):
79:40 And for such as had entertained the fear of standing before their Lord's (tribunal) and had restrained (their) soul from lower desires,

the verses preceding and following this ayat dont say that lust is condemned.

this says that the reward of one who remebers and reveres ALLAH, and has restrained themselves from lower desires-sinful lusts- will be rewarded.

you took this straight off the pages of joseph smiths apologetics-

since its a cut and paste of anothers thoughts- and not your own process- its unlikely youll be satisfied with any answer until you think abou it to begin with-

its the wne that does not make one lose ones senses- or dull ones perceptions that flows in paradise-

but that is as much effort imputting inot a non-question

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/quran9d.htm

Concerned, Concerned, Concerned!!!!!
You copy and paste a lot yourself!

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

If you "deflawed" your book of hallucinations and plagiarisms, you would have a lot less to copy and paste.

HERE'S MORE QUESTIONS-

Lust is condemned in sura 79:40-41, yet in sura 4:24-25 Allah permits polygamy, divorce, and the use of female slaves as concubines (why does a man need a concubine if not to satisfy his lust?).

Also, for those who are faithful- lust is the primary and unlimited reward in heaven (suras 55:46-78; 56:11-39). Surely if lust is condemned on earth and hateful to Allah, how can it be allowed and encouraged in paradise?

Also, if wine is forbidden while on earth (sura 5:91), why do rivers of wine await the faithful in paradise? (suras 47:15; 76:5; 83:25)

actually your desription of marrige is almost exactly what is said at marriage ceremonies for christians-

infidel- your statement-
"Sexual desire that is not appropriate is referred to as lust"

lust can certainly be inappropriately targeted-
but it can also be quite appropriately focused on ones marriage partner-

here is actually what lust means-

LUST

–noun 1. intense sexual desire or appetite.
2. uncontrolled or illicit sexual desire or appetite; lecherousness.
3. a passionate or overmastering desire or craving (usually fol. by for): a lust for power.
4. ardent enthusiasm; zest; relish: an enviable lust for life.
5. Obsolete. a. pleasure or delight.
b. desire; inclination; wish.

–verb (used without object) 6. to have intense sexual desire.
7. to have a yearning or desire; have a strong or excessive craving (often fol. by for or after).

so, in illicit affairs, lust can be a definition.
however, one can also have a deep yearning, enthusiasm, zest,passionate desire,intense appetite for ones husband or wife.

my statement-
"perhaps you can give an example of a virtue carried to an extreme which becomes a vice-
however- youre forgetting that in islam, MODERATION is applied to every aspect of life-

what youve described is simply immoderate behavior-

to spend all of ones energies (by rituals i assume you mena the 5 daily prayers) on one activity while ignoring ones resposibilities to ones family, community, even oneself! is disallowed.

It was reported from al-Hasan that ‘Ubayd-Allaah ibn Ziyaad visited Ma’qil ibn Yassaar during his final illness. Ma’qil said to him, I will tell you a hadeeth which I heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say:

“There is no person to whom Allaah has given people to take care of, and he fails to take care of them properly, but he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6731; Muslim, 142)

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care]. The leader is a shepherd and will be questioned. A man is the shepherd of his family and will be questioned. A woman is the shepherd of her husband’s house and she will be questioned. A slave is the shepherd of his master’s wealth and will be questioned. Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care].” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4892; Muslim, 1829).

In the case of some acts of worship, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us not to go beyond what is prescribed in sharee’ah, for fear that the rights of others – above all the family – may be affected because of that. A number of ahaadeeth were narrated concerning this matter, such as:

‘Awn ibn Abi Juhayfah narrated that his father said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) established brotherhood (mu’aakhah) between Salmaan and Abu’l-Dardaa’. Salmaan visited Abu’l-Dardaa’ and noticed that Umm al-Dardaa’ appeared scruffy and unkempt (this was before the aayah of hijaab was revealed). He said to her, What is the matter with you? She said, Your brother Abu’l-Dardaa’ has no need of this world. Then Abu’l-Dardaa’ came (to visit him). He made some food for him, and said, Eat. [Abu’l-Dardaa’] said, I am fasting. [Salmaan] said, I will not eat until you eat. So he ate. When night came, Abu’l-Dardaa’ went to pray qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said to him, Sleep, so he slept. Then he wanted to get up for qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said, Sleep. When the last part of the night came, Salmaan said, Now get up. So they prayed, then Salmaan said to him, Your Lord has a right over you, your soul has a right over you and your wife has a right over you, so give each one his due. He [Abu’l-Dardaa’] went to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him about that. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Salmaan is right.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1867).

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, “O ‘Abd-Allaah, have I not heard that you fast all day and pray all night?” I said, yes, O Messenger of Allaah. He said, “Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you. It is sufficient for you to fast three days of every month. For every good deed (hasanah) you will be rewarded tenfold, so that will be like fasting for an entire lifetime.” But I went to extremes and made things hard for myself. I said, O Messenger of Allaah, I can do more than that. He said, “Then observe the fast of the Prophet of Allaah, Dawood (peace be upon him), and no more.” I said, What is the fast of the Prophet of Allaah, Dawood (peace be upon him)? He said, “Half a lifetime.” After he grew old, ‘Abd-Allaah used to say, I wish that I had taken the easier option which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) offered me. (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1874; Muslim, 1159).

In these ahaadeeth you can see how the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) advised moderation in fasting, praying qiyaam and reading Qur’aan – for those who were doing a lot and neglecting their families’ rights. He was drawing attention to the rights of others, including wives and families.

since you requested QURAN- here is some

This ummah is the nation of moderation and balance, so everyone who belongs to this ummah must be like that in all areas of his life.

At the same time as we are hearing of some Muslims who spend most of their time away from their families – whether for da’wah or for travelling or some other permissible purpose – we are also hearing of the opposite, where some people stay with their families all the time and never devote any time to calling others to Allaah.

Just as a man’s family has rights over him that he should not neglect, other people, Muslims and non-Muslims – also have rights over him which he should not ignore..

It was reported from al-Hasan that ‘Ubayd-Allaah ibn Ziyaad visited Ma’qil ibn Yassaar during his final illness. Ma’qil said to him, I will tell you a hadeeth which I heard from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). I heard the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) say:

“There is no person to whom Allaah has given people to take care of, and he fails to take care of them properly, but he will not smell the fragrance of Paradise.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6731; Muslim, 142)

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Umar said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:

“Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care]. The leader is a shepherd and will be questioned. A man is the shepherd of his family and will be questioned. A woman is the shepherd of her husband’s house and she will be questioned. A slave is the shepherd of his master’s wealth and will be questioned. Each of you is a shepherd and each of you will be questioned [about those under his care].” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4892; Muslim, 1829).

In the case of some acts of worship, the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) told us not to go beyond what is prescribed in sharee’ah, for fear that the rights of others – above all the family – may be affected because of that. A number of ahaadeeth were narrated concerning this matter, such as:

‘Awn ibn Abi Juhayfah narrated that his father said: the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) established brotherhood (mu’aakhah) between Salmaan and Abu’l-Dardaa’. Salmaan visited Abu’l-Dardaa’ and noticed that Umm al-Dardaa’ appeared scruffy and unkempt (this was before the aayah of hijaab was revealed). He said to her, What is the matter with you? She said, Your brother Abu’l-Dardaa’ has no need of this world. Then Abu’l-Dardaa’ came (to visit him). He made some food for him, and said, Eat. [Abu’l-Dardaa’] said, I am fasting. [Salmaan] said, I will not eat until you eat. So he ate. When night came, Abu’l-Dardaa’ went to pray qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said to him, Sleep, so he slept. Then he wanted to get up for qiyaam, but [Salmaan] said, Sleep. When the last part of the night came, Salmaan said, Now get up. So they prayed, then Salmaan said to him, Your Lord has a right over you, your soul has a right over you and your wife has a right over you, so give each one his due. He [Abu’l-Dardaa’] went to the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and told him about that. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, “Salmaan is right.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 1867).

‘Abd-Allaah ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Aas (may Allaah be pleased with them both) said: the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to me, “O ‘Abd-Allaah, have I not heard that you fast all day and pray all night?” I said, yes, O Messenger of Allaah. He said, “Do not do that. Fast and break your fast, pray qiyaam and sleep, for your body has a right over you, your eyes have a right over you, your wife has a right over you and your visitors have a right over you. It is sufficient for you to fast three days of every month. For every good