"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit. In July 2005, she became the first woman in centuries to officiate Friday prayers in a mosque when the United Muslim Association of Toronto and the Muslim Canadian Congress invited her to serve as guest imam. (This event followed a number of services, sermons and prayer sessions led by women held in private venues because no mosque agreed to host them.) In February 2006, when the former Grand Mufti of Marseilles visited Toronto, he requested that Taylor lead him in congregational prayer as an unequivocal demonstration of his support for female imams. Taylor has also been active in interfaith dialogue for 20 years, both in local initiatives and speaking at numerous conferences, universities, and churches. She received her MTS from Harvard Divinity School, and writes regularly on spiritual matters and the Islamic faith. She has essays in Nurturing Child and Adolescent Spirituality: Perspectives from the World's Religious Traditions (2006) and the forthcoming The Veil: Women Writers on Its History, Lore, and Politics (2007). She has written hundreds of articles and opinion pieces for newspapers, magazines, and journals, and is an award winning poet.
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Pamela K. Taylor
co-founder, Muslims for Progressive Values
"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit.
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ROSS WROTE:
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Can you show me the source for the above good deed of the prophet or did you make this up ?
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As a Muslim, lieing is one of the most major sins and so i dont like to make things up :)/
It is recorded in Sahih Al-Tirmidhi and is regarded as 'hasan sahih'- i.e it has a reliable chain of narration(s) (isnad). This is what i recall rom memory and since I do not atthe moment have access to the collection of Tirmidhi, hee is a link which also mentions the event:
Regardless, of te event, its weird how you and Halozel quote things that Muslims do not regard to be islamic law. The story of Asma Bint Marwan has been regarded by many scholars as a f0orgery and it is only reported in texts written over 2 centuries after the supposed event. If I am not mistaken , it is first mentioned in Ibn-Ishaq;s biography of the Prophet and he makes it explicit that although he records this, he has no knowledge of the historical accuracy (i.e no isnad (chain of narration) to back up the claim- unlike how Sahih Hadiths are recorded). It is due to this that many scholars have regarded this so-called killing as a forgery. Here is a reference if you are interested: http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_killing.htm
But again, you, Ross, may believe whatever you want to believe. I couldn't care less.
May God allow me, you and all of us to learn to respect one another's faith.
- To speak for the truth!
- To defend our selves from savage oppersors!
And INSTEAD learn to love and adopt YOUR social values(which doesn't exist in Muslim community)of DAY IN AND DAY:
- Drinking compare to praying!
- Adultary, fornication and mistressness compare to simple mariage of w/o STATE INHUMAN LAWS.
- to have a selfish relation, use and leave instead of marrying, providing, respecting and taking responsibility of childern, wife, parents till death. THIS IS OUR ROUTINE LIFE, NOT ONLY YOUR IDEAL DREAM WORLD.
- Inslaving, violent and unjust to your women in disguise of liberating them. Compare to our countless women rights and there due respect and position given to them. YOUR MEDIA LIE AND ONLY MONIPOLATE OUR WOMENS CODE OF DRESS without knowing the complete code and flexibility, to justify there devilish wickedness and crulity towards you! woman!!
I can keep on going!
We have our reality of day in and day out life, like you have yours.
Some body rightly said,"day in and day out actions speaks louder than words".
And if you choose to hate us, then its your choice and not ours as we simply follow our BELOVED PROPHET(PBUH)!
For a believer : HE BELIEVES AND HE FOLLOWS.
with day in and day out actions and not only in dreams or in imagination.
Non muslims don't realize while showing their hate based upon there at distance observation and elimentory information mostly negatively twisted by media and propoganda publishers due to your political AGENDA'S
THAT INFACT YOU TELLING US THAT YOU HATE MUSLIMS!
because we live (at least try to live) our lives from birth to death through the actions and sayinsgs of our Beloved Prophet. And no body can know our lives better than us.
Its like telling some body start your self learning how to hate your self.
Learn how to start hating of your day in and day out life style, physical efforts AND NOT JUST WORDS:
1- Praying and prostrating like Jesus, Moses, Adam, Abrahim All other Prophets and Mohammed(PBUH).
2- believing in NO DISCRIMINATION AND NO SALAVERY.
3- believing in ONE God, the Creator the Sustainer and making no parteners to Him.
4- believing in ritiousness, Truth and Justice AND NOT BELIEVING IN POWER FORCED LIES IN FEAR!!!
Every thing said in Islam is not always from the verse of Quran. It is also from the sunnah (on record actions) and Hadith (authentic sayings) of our beloved Prophet(PBUH).
Even then it is not that simple!
But IT IS VERY CLEAR AND COMPREHENSIVE!!!!!!!!
if you read it in right context and DONOT MIS-QOUTE AND DONOT ONLY READ WORDS IN BETWEEN.
You mentioned that islam happens to be a theocracy as founded by Mohammed and that is true, I refer to it as a theowannabeocracy.
The reason that I refer to it that way is because I have met God, the Trinity, and God is Love, Pure Love.
Jesus is Who He said that He is, God-Incarnate, He flat out said it numerous times.
The god of islam claims Jesus as his prophet and a second-rate prophet at that, there are no second-rate prophets only true and false prophets.
If Jesus was telling the Truth and He was, then the being that came to Muhammed was lying.
If Jesus was lying then the being that came to Muhammed chose as his prophet someone claiming to be God that wasn't.
God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.
There seem to be some that will be hiding behind their religion and/or their holy books but God looks at the heart of people not the label they put on themselves.
It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.
A prophet is a messenger not necessarily one that is sent with a prophecy, all prophecy has been prophecized but not all prophecy has come about.
As I have said before God has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation and God's Plan will come to Fruition, it is referred to as the Mysterious Plan of God.
God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.
Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.
There is one wisdom story that Victoria has mentioned time and time again as proof that Islam respects the rights of individuals and therefore any attempt to "squeal" on adultery by spying on one's neighbour would be discouraged. I knew for certain that it comes from another tradition (at best from a Sufi master), but there was something about the way she related it that disturbed me for it didn't reflect the truth. So here is what I remember of the wisdom story:
It was NOT about "squealing" about adultery. It was about a piece of trivial family gossip that a neighbour had overheard and related to the spiritual master. The master wanted to know the source of the gossip. On being told that the person carrying the gossip had tresspassed into the property of the neigbour in order to overhear the conversation (and was in the habit of such spying), the master rebuked the person reminding that the person was committing two sins which were more serious in order to report trivia: the sin of entering the property of the neighbour without consent in order to spy on the neighbour and focussing on the life of others while ignoring their own spiritual journey(of ignoring the log in one's own eye and focussing on the speck in the neighbour's).
If Victoria's version of the wisdom story is to be believed, reporting on adultery is supposedly worse than committing adultery itself, and it would be considered a graver sin to report adultery because it would constitute violating someone's privacy!
Adultery is considered a serious sin in all religions, and if one is dealing with belief in a God who can read the hearts and minds of human beings, it is outright silly to focus entirely on proof in a court of law as proof of sin. Islam is unusual in that it considers adultery a crime and requires four eye witnessess to the act to prove it in a court of law. (There is an explanation in the Quran that that particular Sura is associated with a specific incident in Mohammad's life, when Mohammad's child bride, Aishya was accused of adultery.) Only an insane couple or couples in swinger clubs (? "free love" groups) would have sex in the presence of four witnesses. Under normal circumstances only public rape could provide four witnesses! In the Quran I read that punishment for adultery includes public lashing, confining the woman to the house for the rest of her life or until Allah found another way... and according to Indonesian Sharia Law (which permits polygamy), it is supposedly seven years in prison!
If the reference is authentic then please provide the verse ? If you cannot locate the verse then why do you call it authentic ?
It is you who cannot answer my query accurately, if you cannot locate the source then why can't you take help from other muslims. If you cannot they why do you post false incidents regarding your prophet.
Against who are the personal attacks that you accuse me of ?
Why does it matter if I am a jew or bahai or hindu or christian or buddhist or even an athiest or ex-muslim? I'm not a muslim, I'm a humanitarian who does not believe in treating people as dhimmis and kafirs.
Sadly the only incident where Mo display's kindness to a non muslim has been shamelessly stolen from elsewhere. One only needs common sense to figure out this story is not true, after all Mo had a jewish poet Asma bint Marwan killed by his follower because she criticised him in her poetry, so why on earth would he perform an act of kindness for a jew who threw garbage on him ????
The story of the jewish woman throwing garbage at the Mohammad never took place. Garbage was thrown on a prophet but he was not Mohammad but Abdul Baha the founder of Bahaism and the woman was not jewish but muslim. Muslims have plagiarized this incident from the Bahais.
It you are certain this did happen to Mohammad please show us the exact verses.
What do you want? If I give you the reference, does it change any thing in you? Do you accept the truth if I give you this ref??
I seriously doubt you will ever be able to see through, since I remember I gave you much much more concrete evidence which you throw back on my face!
Any way above mentioned Writers are the authentic sources where you will find Prophets(PBUH) history stories.
And for your quick ref. below link is tell the same above stories and many more WHICH ARE PRESENT ON RECORD EVERY WHERE!!!!!!!
Thank you for your response addressed to me 12 Dec 2007, 9:56 AM. It came as a total surprise because I had addressed several posts to you in the past without getting any response.
Why did I take the post by anonymous as yours? Having read your essays and posts for several months now, I imagine I can detect your style of writing and the way you construct your arguments. The post by Anonymous seemed to reflect your style very much, hence my conclusion.
I would be very happy for other readers to cut and paste all your essays and posts since February this year and try to compare the style and line of argument with the post I responded to assuming it was yours.
So you have read several translations of the Bible during your days at Harvard Divinity School? That explains your familiarity with the Bible, that came through so strongly in your essay on forgiveness. Might it not be that you get the sources of your essays mixed up precisely because you have read widely from many religions, including several translations of the Bible? I have read only one translation of the Quran, but it is sufficient for me to know what Muslim Scripture is about (without trying to be a scholar on the subject of course). Since I have read the Bible, only in the context of prayer, and heard it discussed in religious worship and retreats but have done it over my whole lifetime of forty eight years, even if not as a scholar, it is easy enough for me to detect when the Quran refers to Bible passages and when you refer to Bible passages not found in the Quran.
Islam, as Mohammad founded it, does happen to be a theocracy. I do not have to read the history of Islam to prove that; the Quran and the political life of Mohammad as described in the Hadiths offers sufficient proof. It is possible to reform a religion but only in science fiction is it possible to go back and alter the past. Even God cannot change the past!!! So I am a bit confused when you suddenly try to explain Islam as a religion that had nothing to do with politics in the lifetime of Mohammad. Even if one were to ignore the political history of Islam after his death, it is not possible to ignore what is written in the Quran and Hadiths which clearly reflect a political arm to the religion. If the Quran and Hadith is to be believed, Mohammad led armies, not of angels but of men who wielded weapons of his day. Shariah Law after all was developed very early from the Quran and Hadiths.
I thought it was time to bow out of the discussion on Islam because the discussion has become too repetitive for my taste. Besides I learn nothing about Islam when, among others, known Christian and Hindu thoughts and teachings, which have no origin in the Quran is presented as Islam. Having read the Quran myself I find that I am able to judge somewhat the nature of the teachings that could stem from it; having read from other religious traditions, even if not as a scholar, I am also able to figure out where the non-Islamic teachings or interpretations stem from. One learns best from the those who did the hard spiritual work to generate the wisdom that gave birth to those teachings. I have found true spiritual teachers to be extremely humble and honest, always humble and honest enough to admit the work that went before their own and the sources from which they learnt. Even when they come up with original ideas they claim that they have nothing new to say!
Since I wasn't expecting any response to my posts, I didn't read your reply earlier. Thank you for taking the time to respond, and here a short spontaneous reply.
I gathered from Victoria's posts on another thread that the concept of Trinity is a big issue for Muslims. I have posted the Bible passages on which this belief is based on a previous thread. I suggest you read the Biblical basis for it.
All the non-political good religious parts of the Quran are borrowed from the Bible (especially the Old Testament). There is an Islamic "correction" to the Jewish and Christian Scripture which the Jews and Christians do not accept. The objections are recorded in the Quran. The objections have not changed in the fourteen centuries that has passed since the birth of Islam.
Alan Jones wrote thus about some of the contents of Quran:
"Old Testament stories, often in a guise somewhat different from that in the Bible, dominate much of the narratives of the Quran...There is much less material from the New Testament and Christian apocryphal sources...There are passages too numerous to mention about fighting the infidel and the sharing of booty. Disturbances within the community are dealt with in passages on retaliation...
"Orthodox doctrine renders discussion of the sources of the Quran irrelevant for Muslims: the Quran is the word of God. They are also able to dismiss discrepancies between the Bible and the Quran by recourse to the doctrine that if there are differences between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim version of the Scripture the Jews and the Christians have mangled the Message and Muslims have not. This doctrinal stance is however not without its problems. Mohammad's family (cf.' for example Q. 33:28-33) with the belief that each prophet has received the same message.
"For non-Muslims the Muslim standpoint is untenable, and non-Muslim scholars have given much thought to the question of how Mohammad might have acquired his knowledge of the Bible. The most commonly accepted view is that Mohammad received most of his information about the biblical stories through informants who talked to him; that this material was digested, meditated on and then absorbed into what became the text. There are two passages in the Quran itself that supports this view... (Q. 16:103 and Q. 25:4)It should be added that there is some corroboration in hadith that Muhammad received stories and information from various individuals, including Jews and Christians, and that the material he received from them found its way into Quranic form.
Be that it may, the question of sources in one where there is an unbridgeable chasm between Muslims and non-Muslims. Tolerance requires us to recognise the chasm and to respect the views of those on the other side, wherever our basic stance may be."
End of Quote
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Thus it is clear that the Bible is not about to be brought in line with the Quran anytime soon; Jews and Christians are not about to accept the Muslim interpretation of their Scripture.
There are many contradictions in the Quran that any Christian or Jew can easily detect. I leave it to the religious scholars to write about them, if they are interested.
Personally I started to post on Pamela Taylor's thread because I was interested in learning about the differences and similarities between Christianity and Islam only for the purpose of facilitating religious dialogue.
The list you have provided with apparent contradictions in the New Testament of Jesus' teachings were discussed in earlier threads as well when Pamela Taylor mentioned them in her essays as response to criticism about Islam brought primarily by ex-Muslims from faithfreedom.org. The collection seems to be a sort of standard collection meant for debate with Christians.
1. According to Christian belief Jesus was born of a virgin. His father was literally a spirit, God, the Father. (After all even the Quran admits God is all powerful and can do whatever He wants with a word.) The mission of Jesus was to bring salvation to all mankind through the example of His life, His teachings, His crucifixion and Ressurrection... Jesus was thirty years old when He started His three year earthly ministry. At that point His earthly connections were no longer relevant. He was in the process of fulfilling His mission as Messiah. Jesus said that ALL who obeyed His teachings were His mother, brothers etc. He did not give a special place to His biological mother. He gave equal place to all who accepted Him spiritually. So the truth is that Jesus considered all equal to His mother, rather than disrespecting His mother. He did not want to show favouritism and give a special place to His earthly mother, that is all. If He was God, then why should one human being be more special to Him when He loved all equally?
2. Anyone who is in touch with the reality of families know that there is mostly trouble when one member of the family follows a different drummer. All those who have gone against the status quo are not immediately accepted even by their own families. That is what Jesus meant by bringing a sword or division or whatever. There is nothing in His life or teachings to suggest that He meant a literal sword. If anything He meant that Christians would be put to the sword, which they were for a long long time.
3. Jesus did not wield a sword, lead armies or fight battles with an army of armed followers. Neither did His disciples. In fact when one of the disciples cut off the ear of the servant of the High Priest who came to arrest Jesus, Jesus rebuked His disciple, asked him to put the sword back, and warned that anyone who takes the sword would be killed by the sword. Jesus even healed the ear of the servant whose ear was cut off, the very man who had come to arrest Him. So any implication that Jesus came to preach that His followers were expected to wield swords and kill people is a lie. (In the history of Christianity it is true that those who had political power were involved in battles for political reasons. Christianity is not a theocracy, however Jesus said that there would be politicians and an earthly ruler. He said, "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give to God what belongs to God." When rulers accepted Christianity as a result of preaching by the Apostles and other missionaries, there were naturally Christian rulers. Europe accepted Christianity as its official religion. But that must be differentiated from a theocracy where religious leaders seek political power as part of their religion.)
4. Turning out traders from the Temple in righteous anger because they had converted a place of worship into a marketplace, you consider as being contrary to the teaching of Jesus to turn the other cheek? Can you imagine what Muslims would do if a marketplace was set up at the holiest spot in Kabah in Mecca? Worshipping God with all of one's heart, mind and soul was an essential part of Jesus' teaching in accordance with the Old Testament as well. He taught that it was the first most important commandment. So He could not tolerate the place of worship to be insulted by turning it into a marketplace. Jesus forgave everyone as lay dying on the cross. That is the proof that He lived what He preached.
5. The verse you quote in which Jesus said that it would be better for one to gouge out one's OWN eye or cut off one's OWN hand was in context of explaining the sin of adultery. Note that He mentioned it would be BETTER for one to cut off one's OWN hand or gouge out one's OWN eye, RATHER than go to hell. It is easy to understand that He meant it to be a figure of speech to make it clear how strictly one should deal with temptations or triggers that lead to adultery, which is considered a serious sin in all religions. Jesus gave permission for divorce in the case of adultery. He did NOT teach nor mention anyone else should literally gouge out the eyes or cut off the hands of another person who indulged in lust. Any addict being treated for addictions will tell you the importance in dealing with triggers if they are serious about getting well.
What Jesus am I expected to worship as God? The Jesus whose coming was announed many hundred years ago by prophets; the Jesus who was born of a virgin; the Jesus who was worshipped by wise men who came from the East even while He lay in the manger as an infant, unknown to the rest of the world; the Jesus who worked miracles - fed the hungry, gave sight to the blind, raised the dead, healed the leper; the Jesus who was crucified and was raised on the third day; the Jesus for whom His disciples gave up everything; the Jesus whose followers were willing to die for Him; the Jesus whose message was spread by many, many missionaries through centuries enduring hardship and persecution; the Jesus who has inspired millions of people to be good and loving not just to friends but also to enemies...
The same Jesus is mentioned in the Quran along with His teachings, even if many of the details of His life are not mentioned.
Moody wrote:
Read Biography of Prophet Mohummud(S.A.W)qouting authentic Hadith [Saying/Actions of Prophet(PBUH) supported by Evidence with chain of links]
BY
- Al Tabari Or
- Ibn -I- Hasham
I thought muslims were good at retrieving the correct verses from the quran or hadiths,
so Mr.Moody please show the verse in - Al Tabari Or - Ibn -I- Hasham where the story of the jewish woman throwing garbage at the prophet was sourced from.
You can ask your islamic brethren for help.
Why is this so difficult Mr. Moody ? are you unable to back up your claims because this is made up ? Not very HONOURABLE.
Read Biography of Prophet Mohummud(S.A.W)qouting authentic Hadith [Saying/Actions of Prophet(PBUH) supported by Evidence with chain of links]
BY
- Al Tabari Or
- Ibn -I- Hasham
You wrote concerning antropomorphism as attributing human form and qualities to God.
Considering that we are humans and that we are limited by human speech in describing some things how else can we speak to each other about God.
I have mentioned that I have met God and I also said that He is Pure Love and I have also said that I didn't physically see Him but that He came into my heart so I could say that I saw God with my heart but does my heart have eyeballs, no, but is it my physical heart or is it my inner being, my spiritual heart so to speak.
I have also mentioned on a previous post that one of the commmandments that God gave was not to make graven images of Him and I said the reason God gave that commandment was that God knew it was impossible to make an image of PURE LOVE.
I thank God that God is literally a Being of Love.
I also thank God that He has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.
And I also thank God that He is not even remotely like what some of the people that know His Name think that He is.
You wrote, "Dear Thomas Baum,
You say *God is the God of All*.
Yes, of course He is and by All, I mean not only people but everything.
Even tho I refer to God as He, God is not a He or a She or an It but is actually a Trinity of Pure Love.
God is a Trinity yet One and the bible is One as in taken as a whole not sliced and diced as so many do with such spiritual pride.
We are all equal in God's Eyes, we may not comprehend that, we may not believe that and we may not always act that either but God is absolutely nothing like what some of the people that know His Name think that He Is.
God has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation and God's Plan will come to Fruition.
As I have said, God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.
Moody wrote:
I as a witness tell you above ref. post are ALL authentic. Though it seems of no use telling you!
Then it should be no problem to locate the source, so please show us where the story of the jewish woman throwing garbage at the prophet was sourced from.
Time and time again the writers of the Christian bible distort and mutilate the words found in the Hebrew bible. Upon closer examination we find the writers not only misquoting the original but also misinterpreting it to mean the opposite of whatt he original text was trying to convey. Take for instance the book of Hebrews chapter 10 which states:
Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach. Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshipers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a BODY you have prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, 'See, God, I have come to do your will, O God' (in the scroll of the book it is written of me)."
When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "See, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And it is by God's will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, "he sat down at the right hand of God," and since then has been waiting "until his enemies would be made a footstool for his feet." Hebrews 10:1-11
The writer tells us that God desires and needs blood in order to forgive sin. Accordingly, Jesus offered himself once and for all and as a final sacrifice so that God will be able to forgive sin. In other words if there is no blood there is no sin forgiveness. Apart from limiting God’s grace and mercy, this sacrificial system is bloody and has all the trimming of a primitive pagan human sacrifice which is to say the least is very revolting and sickening. What kind of a deity who rejects a person’s whole hearted and humble repentance but demands blood to be able to forgive.
The writer of Hebrews quotes from Psalm 40 in order to support his view of the death of Jesus and what it means to him. At first it says “sacrifices and offerings you have not desired”; Okay, that sounds good so far-blood is not necessary for God to forgive. Next the writer indicates that, here Jesus is speaking, “a body you have prepared for me,” As in Jesus’ body was offered to God as a sacrifice. This sounds like a complete u turn from what was said at the beginning. It sounds like the author is trying to extract a meaning from the Psalm which was not there to begin with.
Sure enough, Psalm 40 is clear in its original form which states:
Sacrifice and offering you do not desire,
but you have given me an OPEN EAR.
Burnt offering and sin offering
you have not required.
Then I said, "Here I am;
in the scroll of the book it is written of me.
I delight to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart." Psalms 40:6-8
It is claimed that David wrote this Psalm. The Hebrew bible tells us that David committed a sin; He had one woman’s husband sent to the front lines in a war to die in order for him to have his way with her. David recognized his mistake, repented and asked God for forgiveness. He came to the conclusion that God does not require sacrifices but and a repentant heart would do.
Note how the words “BODY you have prepared for me” is not there; Instead the Psalm says:
“have given me an OPEN EAR”; this is close to what is said in Isaiah:
The Lord God has given me the tongue of a teacher, that I may know how to sustain the weary with a word. Morning by morning he wakens--wakens my ear to listen as those who are taught.
The Lord God has opened my ear, and I was not rebellious, I did not turn backward. Isaiah 50:4-5
The author of Hebrews was definitely mistaken in his reading of what David was trying to say. In fact we find in Psalm 40 an idea that is opposite to what the writer of Hebrews and Paul claimed about Jesus’ death and its atonement for the sins of humanity; God does not like sacrifices; God does not need an innocent human being, Jesus in this case, to die or shed his blood to be able to forgive.
If that’s not enough elsewhere, the Psalmist says,
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
For you have no delight in sacrifice;
if I were to give a burnt offering, you would not be pleased.
The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Psalm 51:15-17
What David says here demolishes and lays waste to all the Christians claim about sacrifices in general and Jesus and his death specifically.
Also elsewhere in the Hebrew bible this same message is repeated again:
For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6
Paul’s dogma and the Christian doctrine of blood atonement has no basis whatsoever in the Hebrew bible. How can two diametrically opposed doctrines, what’s found in the Hebrew bible and the Christian bible, exist in the same book is above any comprehension? It is just foolishness, pure and simple.
Also, Paul is not immune from twisting the Hebrew bible in order to justify his atonement doctrine. He writes in Romans:
Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that "the person who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say?
"The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:5-9
Here Paul claims that righteousness comes only through faith. And if someone ha faith he will be saved.
What that faith entails someone to do is to confess that Jesus was raised from the dead and that’s how righteousness in the sight of God is achieved. His quote about righteousness and faith comes from Deuteronomy. I read the passage in Deuteronomy and I do not see how he came to that conclusion. The passage in Deuteronomy says “The Word is near you on your lips and in your heart”; here the word refers to the Law of Moses and the commandments of God contained in it. It is clear that God requires from the Israelites their obedience to and observance of his commandments and to walk in his ways; and above all his commandments are easy and not hard for anyone to do. So, all I take from reading this specific passage in Deuteronomy is that righteousness in the sight of God is the belief in him and obeying his laws and commandments; in a nut shell that’s exactly the teaching someone finds in the Quran.
The passage in Deuteronomy that Paul alludes to is as follows:
Then you shall again obey the LORD, observing all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and the LORD your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all your undertakings, in the fruit of your body, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the LORD will again take delight in prospering you, just as he delighted in prospering your ancestors, when you obey the LORD your God by observing his commandments and decrees that are written in this book of the law, because you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?" Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?"
No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.
See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the LORD your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the LORD swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Deuteronomy 30:
In another one of his epistle, Paul discredits what is said here in Deuteronomy and calls God’s laws and commandments a curse:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse. Galatians 3:10
Paul also says:
For "no human being will be justified in his sight" by deeds prescribed by the law. Romans 3:20
Obeying the laws of God is not necessary and that is in total contradiction to the above passage found in Deuteronomy.
Let’s see what Jesus has to say about God’s Law:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20
In conclusion then, Paul is wrong and I should add he is a deceiver and a liar in spite of his claim to the opposite, as in:
- The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I do not lie. II Corinthians
- what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie! Galatians
- I am telling the truth, I am not lying Timothy
- I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying. Romans
REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.
This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!
So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!
IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:
A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!
HARK Humates of America!:
BEWARE:
Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:
He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!
Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!
ATT: You get pais per "CLICK' , then pay 'US' [free Spirited Bloggers] for Stealing OUR ideas/Writings!
Note: You must Post [ALL & not SENSORED] or repost {hours of WORK (free, but NO more!) thinking & typing) what You-Failed to post. There was No Cuseses. Everything was acoording to 'YOUR' rules, not mine.
Yes, 34,000 people a year in AMERICA , the sweet, comit Suicide. So Better they Volunteer for Army & die Protecting the great REPUBLIC & FEDERATION of "Space-Ship" Planet EARTH against SuperStupidStitious Pre-Apocalyptic BIBLIO, QURANO, GEETAO, MANIACS.
WE "i"nellegent "i"ntellectuals "i"ndividuals. aka, HUMATES (not Humans, as JOKTANIAN, not PELEGIAN,Sporades (Wom) & Mavorites (Man)) Live on space-Ship Earth! aka S.S. GAIA, S.S. GEOID, S.S. TELLUSng Something instead!!
So please post ALL that you have sieved/selected & sensored! Not jus "i", but many many Bloggers!
NOTICE: "NEWS-WEEK" & WASHINGTON POST & CO, et al,;
IT is about your ten 'FACE's. not about our one honest Face's!
You will be sued , in 'Class' like, in Federal Court very very Soon!
not just "i" , but to many you say,
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VOTE:
'NO' to News-Papers Company's owning {your Kids minds future & yours too] against them owning T.V Stations & Satellite Station!
SAY: 'NO' , via F.C.C., to News Paper Company's! 'NO' Broad Casting! Say or Vote, No!
And, Say 'NO' to allowing Religious Satellite Televangelical(s) to broadcast their 'EVIL' Anti-Society Story's & Behavior's too!
Thanks, Eclati-On (nevr Off's) American Mon's & Monsa's!
Take Back your almost Hijacked Nation! Take back Sweet sweet America! Now!
Good bye Newsweek, Washington Post, Editor & POST et al:
Good bye every body!
Att: Washington Post, Newsweek & Company; You Suck!
Warning: Do not reproduce, deseminate, plagerize, copy, for profit or gain 'ANY of my "POST" on any onf these 'Onfaith' or "onreligion" bloggs, since MARCH.19/20th of 2007 until NOW! Dec.15th.2007!
Vote: ECLATi-ON Party for GRIDARIAN DEMOCRACY & TRANSFINITE CIVILIZATION 2012 & beyond! Bye Yo ALL!
*Whoever is baptized will be saved,but whoever does not will be condemned* Mark 16.16
So,in that case proximately 75 percent of the world population will be condemned,so,can we say *the God of All*
Homosexual John says *the homosexuals,liars,murderers etc. will be in the burninig lake* Rev.21.8
How many people will go to the Heaven ??
You always say *be ready,see you in the Kingdom.
Book of God written by human Matthew say *a shephard separates the sheep from the goats* 25.32
Who is sheep and who is goat,only the God knows,so how can you *BOOK* a place from the Heaven ??
Besides,who is the *Last One* is a problem.
According to Christianity *Son of Jew* is the last one and he will come again with a *white horse* as written(to me,a white *spaceship* may be better).
According to islam *Son of Bedouin* is the last one.
So,shall they follow the Lamb or shall they follow the gamel driver ??
Wedding of Lamb or wedding of six years old child girl ??
Dear Baum,who will kiss the fairy girls in the Paradise ??
What will chineses,japaneses,hindus and africans do ??
Anthropomorphism refers to the perception of God in human form and quality. And that is no more evident than what is found in the creation story written in the bible.
We are informed by the author of the Pentateuch that God said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and that "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him -- male and female created he them."
If this account means anything, it means that man was created in the physical image and likeness of God. Moses while he speaks of man as having been made in the image of God, never speaks of God except as having the form of a man. He speaks of God as "walking in the garden in the cool of the day;" and that Adam and Eve "heard his voice." He is constantly telling what God said, and in a thousand passages he refers to him as not only having the human form, but as performing actions, such as man performs. The God of Moses was a God with hands, with feet, with the organs of speech. A God of passion, of hatred, of revenge, of affection, of repentance; a God who made mistakes: -- in other words, an immense and powerful man.
It will not do to say that Moses meant to convey the idea that God made man in his mental or moral image. Some have insisted that man was made in the moral image of God because he was made pure. Purity cannot be manufactured. A moral character cannot be made for man by a god. Every man must make his own moral character. Consequently, if God is infinitely pure, Adam and Eve were not made in his image in that respect. Otherwise they would not disobey his commands.
Others say that Adam and Eve were made in the mental image of God. If it is meant by that, that they were created with reasoning power like, but not to the extent of those possessed by a god, then this may be admitted. But certainly this idea was not in the mind of Moses. He regarded the human form as being in the image of God, and for that reason always spoke of God as having that form. No one can read the Pentateuch without coming to the conclusion that the author supposed that man was created in the physical likeness of Deity. God said:
"Go to, let us go down."
Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” Genesis 11:7
"God smelled a sweet savor;"
Then Noah built an altar to YHWH, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And YHWH smelled a soothing aroma. Then YHWH said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 6:20-21
"God repented him that he had made man;"
And YHWH was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So YHWH said, "I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created--people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." Genesis 6:6-8
"and God said;" and "walked;" and "talked;" and not omniscient of things around him.
And they heard the sound of YHWH Elohim walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH Elohim among the trees of the garden. Genesis 3:8
Then YHWH Elohim called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
So he said, “I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
Then the man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
And YHWH Elohim said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
So YHWH Elohim said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. Genesis 3:9-14 ---How about that. A dust eating snake!
and "rested."
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day Elohim ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which Elohim had created and made. Genesis 2:1-3
All these expressions are inconsistent with any other idea than that the person using them regarded God as having the form of man.
As a matter of fact, it is impossible for a man to conceive of a personal God, other than as a being having the human form. No one can think of an infinite being having the form of a horse, or of a bird, or of any animal beneath man. It is one of the necessities of the mind to associate forms with intellectual capacities. The highest form of which we have any conception is man's, and consequently, his is the only form that we can find in imagination to give to a personal God, because all other forms are, in our minds, connected with lower intelligences.
It is impossible to think of a personal God as a spirit without form. We can use these words, but they do not convey to the mind any real and tangible meaning. Every one who thinks of a personal God at all, thinks of him as having the human form. Take from God the idea of form; speak of him simply as an all pervading spirit -- which means an all pervading something about which we know nothing -- and Pantheism is the result.
The question is asked, how were Adam and Eve created?
In one account, Genesis chapter one, they are created male and female on the sixth day of creation, and apparently at the same time.
Then Elohim said, Let Us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So Elohim created man in His own image; in the image of Elohim He created him; male and female He created them. … So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-27
In the next account, Genesis chapter 2, Adam is created first, and Eve a long time afterwards, and from a part of the man. In other words, after the creation that took six days and the rest he took during the seventh day, God found out that Adam needed a helper and after trial and error he decided to create Eve.
And YHWH Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being… Then YHWH Elohim took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to tend and keep it… And YHWH Elohim said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
Out of the ground YHWH Elohim formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. Genesis 2:7-20
So the creation of Eve was an after thought, in order to please Adam because the animals did not grab his attention.
And YHWH Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which YHWH Elohim had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Genesis 2:21-22
If the Mosaic account is true, we know how long man has been upon this earth. If that account can be relied on, the first man was made about five thousand eight hundred and eighty-three years ago. Sixteen hundred and fifty-six years after the making of the first man, the inhabitants of the world, with the exception of eight people, were destroyed by a flood. This flood occurred only about four thousand two hundred and twenty-seven years ago. If this account is correct, at that time, only one kind of men existed. Noah and his family were certainly of the same blood. It therefore follows that all the differences we see between the various races of men have been caused in about four thousand years. If the account of the deluge is true, then since that event all the ancient kingdoms of the earth were founded, and their inhabitants passed through all the stages of savage, nomadic, barbaric and semi-civilized life; through the epochs of Stone, Bronze and Iron; established commerce, cultivated the arts, built cities, filled them with palaces and temples, invented writing, produced a literature and slowly fell to shapeless ruin. We must believe that all this has happened within a period of four thousand years.
From representations found upon Egyptian granite made more than three thousand years ago, we know that the Negro was as black, his lips as full, and his hair as closely curled then as now. If we know anything, we know that there was at that time substantially the same difference between the Egyptian and the Negro as now. If we know anything, we know that magnificent statues were made in Egypt four thousand years before our era -- that is to say, about six thousand years ago. There was at the World's Exposition, in the Egyptian department, a statue of king Cephren, known to have been chiseled more than six thousand years ago. In other words, if the Mosaic account must be believed, this statue was made before the world. We also know, if we know anything, that men lived in Europe with the hairy mammoth, the cave bear, the rhinoceros, and the hyena. Among the bones of these animals have been found the stone hatchets and flint arrows of our ancestors. In the caves where they lived have been discovered the remains of these animals that had been conquered, killed and devoured as food, hundreds of thousands of years ago.
It will not now do to say that man has existed upon this earth for only about six thousand years. One can hardly compute in his imagination the time necessary for man to emerge from the barbarous state, naked and helpless, surrounded by animals far more powerful than he, to progress and finally create the civilizations of India, Egypt and Athens. The distance from savagery to Shakespeare must be measured not by hundreds, but by millions of years.
All Comments (82)
ROSS WROTE:
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Can you show me the source for the above good deed of the prophet or did you make this up ?
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As a Muslim, lieing is one of the most major sins and so i dont like to make things up :)/
It is recorded in Sahih Al-Tirmidhi and is regarded as 'hasan sahih'- i.e it has a reliable chain of narration(s) (isnad). This is what i recall rom memory and since I do not atthe moment have access to the collection of Tirmidhi, hee is a link which also mentions the event:
http://www.theprophetofmercy.com/Who%20is%20the%20Prophet%20Muhammad.pdf
Regardless, of te event, its weird how you and Halozel quote things that Muslims do not regard to be islamic law. The story of Asma Bint Marwan has been regarded by many scholars as a f0orgery and it is only reported in texts written over 2 centuries after the supposed event. If I am not mistaken , it is first mentioned in Ibn-Ishaq;s biography of the Prophet and he makes it explicit that although he records this, he has no knowledge of the historical accuracy (i.e no isnad (chain of narration) to back up the claim- unlike how Sahih Hadiths are recorded). It is due to this that many scholars have regarded this so-called killing as a forgery. Here is a reference if you are interested:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/karim/forgeries_about_killing.htm
But again, you, Ross, may believe whatever you want to believe. I couldn't care less.
May God allow me, you and all of us to learn to respect one another's faith.
Peace:)
December 27, 2007 3:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 27, 2007 15:47
Rose:
And learn to hate what???
- To speak for the truth!
- To defend our selves from savage oppersors!
And INSTEAD learn to love and adopt YOUR social values(which doesn't exist in Muslim community)of DAY IN AND DAY:
- Drinking compare to praying!
- Adultary, fornication and mistressness compare to simple mariage of w/o STATE INHUMAN LAWS.
- to have a selfish relation, use and leave instead of marrying, providing, respecting and taking responsibility of childern, wife, parents till death. THIS IS OUR ROUTINE LIFE, NOT ONLY YOUR IDEAL DREAM WORLD.
- Inslaving, violent and unjust to your women in disguise of liberating them. Compare to our countless women rights and there due respect and position given to them. YOUR MEDIA LIE AND ONLY MONIPOLATE OUR WOMENS CODE OF DRESS without knowing the complete code and flexibility, to justify there devilish wickedness and crulity towards you! woman!!
I can keep on going!
We have our reality of day in and day out life, like you have yours.
Some body rightly said,"day in and day out actions speaks louder than words".
And if you choose to hate us, then its your choice and not ours as we simply follow our BELOVED PROPHET(PBUH)!
For a believer : HE BELIEVES AND HE FOLLOWS.
with day in and day out actions and not only in dreams or in imagination.
December 22, 2007 2:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 22, 2007 02:00
And Ross:
Non muslims don't realize while showing their hate based upon there at distance observation and elimentory information mostly negatively twisted by media and propoganda publishers due to your political AGENDA'S
THAT INFACT YOU TELLING US THAT YOU HATE MUSLIMS!
because we live (at least try to live) our lives from birth to death through the actions and sayinsgs of our Beloved Prophet. And no body can know our lives better than us.
Its like telling some body start your self learning how to hate your self.
Learn how to start hating of your day in and day out life style, physical efforts AND NOT JUST WORDS:
1- Praying and prostrating like Jesus, Moses, Adam, Abrahim All other Prophets and Mohammed(PBUH).
2- believing in NO DISCRIMINATION AND NO SALAVERY.
3- believing in ONE God, the Creator the Sustainer and making no parteners to Him.
4- believing in ritiousness, Truth and Justice AND NOT BELIEVING IN POWER FORCED LIES IN FEAR!!!
December 22, 2007 1:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 22, 2007 01:25
Rose:
Happy new year!
Every thing said in Islam is not always from the verse of Quran. It is also from the sunnah (on record actions) and Hadith (authentic sayings) of our beloved Prophet(PBUH).
Even then it is not that simple!
But IT IS VERY CLEAR AND COMPREHENSIVE!!!!!!!!
if you read it in right context and DONOT MIS-QOUTE AND DONOT ONLY READ WORDS IN BETWEEN.
Thats why I gave you references to see your self!
December 22, 2007 12:49 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 22, 2007 00:49
TO SOJA JOHN THAIKATTIL SYDNEY, AURTRALIA:
You mentioned that islam happens to be a theocracy as founded by Mohammed and that is true, I refer to it as a theowannabeocracy.
The reason that I refer to it that way is because I have met God, the Trinity, and God is Love, Pure Love.
Jesus is Who He said that He is, God-Incarnate, He flat out said it numerous times.
The god of islam claims Jesus as his prophet and a second-rate prophet at that, there are no second-rate prophets only true and false prophets.
If Jesus was telling the Truth and He was, then the being that came to Muhammed was lying.
If Jesus was lying then the being that came to Muhammed chose as his prophet someone claiming to be God that wasn't.
God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.
There seem to be some that will be hiding behind their religion and/or their holy books but God looks at the heart of people not the label they put on themselves.
It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know.
A prophet is a messenger not necessarily one that is sent with a prophecy, all prophecy has been prophecized but not all prophecy has come about.
As I have said before God has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation and God's Plan will come to Fruition, it is referred to as the Mysterious Plan of God.
God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.
Take care, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
December 21, 2007 4:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 21, 2007 16:39
There is one wisdom story that Victoria has mentioned time and time again as proof that Islam respects the rights of individuals and therefore any attempt to "squeal" on adultery by spying on one's neighbour would be discouraged. I knew for certain that it comes from another tradition (at best from a Sufi master), but there was something about the way she related it that disturbed me for it didn't reflect the truth. So here is what I remember of the wisdom story:
It was NOT about "squealing" about adultery. It was about a piece of trivial family gossip that a neighbour had overheard and related to the spiritual master. The master wanted to know the source of the gossip. On being told that the person carrying the gossip had tresspassed into the property of the neigbour in order to overhear the conversation (and was in the habit of such spying), the master rebuked the person reminding that the person was committing two sins which were more serious in order to report trivia: the sin of entering the property of the neighbour without consent in order to spy on the neighbour and focussing on the life of others while ignoring their own spiritual journey(of ignoring the log in one's own eye and focussing on the speck in the neighbour's).
If Victoria's version of the wisdom story is to be believed, reporting on adultery is supposedly worse than committing adultery itself, and it would be considered a graver sin to report adultery because it would constitute violating someone's privacy!
Adultery is considered a serious sin in all religions, and if one is dealing with belief in a God who can read the hearts and minds of human beings, it is outright silly to focus entirely on proof in a court of law as proof of sin. Islam is unusual in that it considers adultery a crime and requires four eye witnessess to the act to prove it in a court of law. (There is an explanation in the Quran that that particular Sura is associated with a specific incident in Mohammad's life, when Mohammad's child bride, Aishya was accused of adultery.) Only an insane couple or couples in swinger clubs (? "free love" groups) would have sex in the presence of four witnesses. Under normal circumstances only public rape could provide four witnesses! In the Quran I read that punishment for adultery includes public lashing, confining the woman to the house for the rest of her life or until Allah found another way... and according to Indonesian Sharia Law (which permits polygamy), it is supposedly seven years in prison!
December 21, 2007 3:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 21, 2007 03:37
Dear Pamela, Jihadist, Victoria and all Muslims worldwide!
Happy Eid Mubarak and a Happy New Year 2008!
Best wishes
Soja
----------------
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
December 21, 2007 1:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 21, 2007 01:40
Moody,
If the reference is authentic then please provide the verse ? If you cannot locate the verse then why do you call it authentic ?
It is you who cannot answer my query accurately, if you cannot locate the source then why can't you take help from other muslims. If you cannot they why do you post false incidents regarding your prophet.
Against who are the personal attacks that you accuse me of ?
Why does it matter if I am a jew or bahai or hindu or christian or buddhist or even an athiest or ex-muslim? I'm not a muslim, I'm a humanitarian who does not believe in treating people as dhimmis and kafirs.
--- I'm not against faith, I'm against hate ----
December 19, 2007 8:59 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 08:59
Ross:
So far YOU only asked questions.
And all the authentic references YOU DON'T WANT TO ACCEPT.
AND so far failed to put forward any authentic RECORD, from your side. OTHER THAN YOUR SELF OPINIONS.
I don't have any personl gurage with you but so far ALL YOUR POSTS ARE NOT MORE THEN PERSONAL ATTACKS AND ACCUSATIONS.
AND IT ONLY SOUNDS LIKE PROPOGATING YOUR CERTAIN AGENDA!
I'm pretty sure you are a Jew?
Are you from Israel?
December 19, 2007 7:53 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 07:53
Sadly the only incident where Mo display's kindness to a non muslim has been shamelessly stolen from elsewhere. One only needs common sense to figure out this story is not true, after all Mo had a jewish poet Asma bint Marwan killed by his follower because she criticised him in her poetry, so why on earth would he perform an act of kindness for a jew who threw garbage on him ????
December 19, 2007 7:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 07:06
Moody,
The truth is this:
The story of the jewish woman throwing garbage at the Mohammad never took place. Garbage was thrown on a prophet but he was not Mohammad but Abdul Baha the founder of Bahaism and the woman was not jewish but muslim. Muslims have plagiarized this incident from the Bahais.
It you are certain this did happen to Mohammad please show us the exact verses.
Rgds
December 19, 2007 6:35 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 06:35
Well Ross,
What do you want? If I give you the reference, does it change any thing in you? Do you accept the truth if I give you this ref??
I seriously doubt you will ever be able to see through, since I remember I gave you much much more concrete evidence which you throw back on my face!
Any way above mentioned Writers are the authentic sources where you will find Prophets(PBUH) history stories.
And for your quick ref. below link is tell the same above stories and many more WHICH ARE PRESENT ON RECORD EVERY WHERE!!!!!!!
http://www.theprophetofmercy.com/Who%20is%20the%20Prophet%20Muhammad.pdf
December 19, 2007 6:01 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 06:01
Dear Pamela
Thank you for your response addressed to me 12 Dec 2007, 9:56 AM. It came as a total surprise because I had addressed several posts to you in the past without getting any response.
Why did I take the post by anonymous as yours? Having read your essays and posts for several months now, I imagine I can detect your style of writing and the way you construct your arguments. The post by Anonymous seemed to reflect your style very much, hence my conclusion.
I would be very happy for other readers to cut and paste all your essays and posts since February this year and try to compare the style and line of argument with the post I responded to assuming it was yours.
So you have read several translations of the Bible during your days at Harvard Divinity School? That explains your familiarity with the Bible, that came through so strongly in your essay on forgiveness. Might it not be that you get the sources of your essays mixed up precisely because you have read widely from many religions, including several translations of the Bible? I have read only one translation of the Quran, but it is sufficient for me to know what Muslim Scripture is about (without trying to be a scholar on the subject of course). Since I have read the Bible, only in the context of prayer, and heard it discussed in religious worship and retreats but have done it over my whole lifetime of forty eight years, even if not as a scholar, it is easy enough for me to detect when the Quran refers to Bible passages and when you refer to Bible passages not found in the Quran.
Islam, as Mohammad founded it, does happen to be a theocracy. I do not have to read the history of Islam to prove that; the Quran and the political life of Mohammad as described in the Hadiths offers sufficient proof. It is possible to reform a religion but only in science fiction is it possible to go back and alter the past. Even God cannot change the past!!! So I am a bit confused when you suddenly try to explain Islam as a religion that had nothing to do with politics in the lifetime of Mohammad. Even if one were to ignore the political history of Islam after his death, it is not possible to ignore what is written in the Quran and Hadiths which clearly reflect a political arm to the religion. If the Quran and Hadith is to be believed, Mohammad led armies, not of angels but of men who wielded weapons of his day. Shariah Law after all was developed very early from the Quran and Hadiths.
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
December 19, 2007 5:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 05:04
The link to Medicins sans Frontieres (Doctors without Borders):
http://www.msf.org
December 19, 2007 4:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 04:34
Dear Laila
I thought it was time to bow out of the discussion on Islam because the discussion has become too repetitive for my taste. Besides I learn nothing about Islam when, among others, known Christian and Hindu thoughts and teachings, which have no origin in the Quran is presented as Islam. Having read the Quran myself I find that I am able to judge somewhat the nature of the teachings that could stem from it; having read from other religious traditions, even if not as a scholar, I am also able to figure out where the non-Islamic teachings or interpretations stem from. One learns best from the those who did the hard spiritual work to generate the wisdom that gave birth to those teachings. I have found true spiritual teachers to be extremely humble and honest, always humble and honest enough to admit the work that went before their own and the sources from which they learnt. Even when they come up with original ideas they claim that they have nothing new to say!
Since I wasn't expecting any response to my posts, I didn't read your reply earlier. Thank you for taking the time to respond, and here a short spontaneous reply.
I gathered from Victoria's posts on another thread that the concept of Trinity is a big issue for Muslims. I have posted the Bible passages on which this belief is based on a previous thread. I suggest you read the Biblical basis for it.
All the non-political good religious parts of the Quran are borrowed from the Bible (especially the Old Testament). There is an Islamic "correction" to the Jewish and Christian Scripture which the Jews and Christians do not accept. The objections are recorded in the Quran. The objections have not changed in the fourteen centuries that has passed since the birth of Islam.
Alan Jones wrote thus about some of the contents of Quran:
"Old Testament stories, often in a guise somewhat different from that in the Bible, dominate much of the narratives of the Quran...There is much less material from the New Testament and Christian apocryphal sources...There are passages too numerous to mention about fighting the infidel and the sharing of booty. Disturbances within the community are dealt with in passages on retaliation...
"Orthodox doctrine renders discussion of the sources of the Quran irrelevant for Muslims: the Quran is the word of God. They are also able to dismiss discrepancies between the Bible and the Quran by recourse to the doctrine that if there are differences between the Jewish, Christian and Muslim version of the Scripture the Jews and the Christians have mangled the Message and Muslims have not. This doctrinal stance is however not without its problems. Mohammad's family (cf.' for example Q. 33:28-33) with the belief that each prophet has received the same message.
"For non-Muslims the Muslim standpoint is untenable, and non-Muslim scholars have given much thought to the question of how Mohammad might have acquired his knowledge of the Bible. The most commonly accepted view is that Mohammad received most of his information about the biblical stories through informants who talked to him; that this material was digested, meditated on and then absorbed into what became the text. There are two passages in the Quran itself that supports this view... (Q. 16:103 and Q. 25:4)It should be added that there is some corroboration in hadith that Muhammad received stories and information from various individuals, including Jews and Christians, and that the material he received from them found its way into Quranic form.
Be that it may, the question of sources in one where there is an unbridgeable chasm between Muslims and non-Muslims. Tolerance requires us to recognise the chasm and to respect the views of those on the other side, wherever our basic stance may be."
End of Quote
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Thus it is clear that the Bible is not about to be brought in line with the Quran anytime soon; Jews and Christians are not about to accept the Muslim interpretation of their Scripture.
There are many contradictions in the Quran that any Christian or Jew can easily detect. I leave it to the religious scholars to write about them, if they are interested.
Personally I started to post on Pamela Taylor's thread because I was interested in learning about the differences and similarities between Christianity and Islam only for the purpose of facilitating religious dialogue.
The list you have provided with apparent contradictions in the New Testament of Jesus' teachings were discussed in earlier threads as well when Pamela Taylor mentioned them in her essays as response to criticism about Islam brought primarily by ex-Muslims from faithfreedom.org. The collection seems to be a sort of standard collection meant for debate with Christians.
1. According to Christian belief Jesus was born of a virgin. His father was literally a spirit, God, the Father. (After all even the Quran admits God is all powerful and can do whatever He wants with a word.) The mission of Jesus was to bring salvation to all mankind through the example of His life, His teachings, His crucifixion and Ressurrection... Jesus was thirty years old when He started His three year earthly ministry. At that point His earthly connections were no longer relevant. He was in the process of fulfilling His mission as Messiah. Jesus said that ALL who obeyed His teachings were His mother, brothers etc. He did not give a special place to His biological mother. He gave equal place to all who accepted Him spiritually. So the truth is that Jesus considered all equal to His mother, rather than disrespecting His mother. He did not want to show favouritism and give a special place to His earthly mother, that is all. If He was God, then why should one human being be more special to Him when He loved all equally?
2. Anyone who is in touch with the reality of families know that there is mostly trouble when one member of the family follows a different drummer. All those who have gone against the status quo are not immediately accepted even by their own families. That is what Jesus meant by bringing a sword or division or whatever. There is nothing in His life or teachings to suggest that He meant a literal sword. If anything He meant that Christians would be put to the sword, which they were for a long long time.
3. Jesus did not wield a sword, lead armies or fight battles with an army of armed followers. Neither did His disciples. In fact when one of the disciples cut off the ear of the servant of the High Priest who came to arrest Jesus, Jesus rebuked His disciple, asked him to put the sword back, and warned that anyone who takes the sword would be killed by the sword. Jesus even healed the ear of the servant whose ear was cut off, the very man who had come to arrest Him. So any implication that Jesus came to preach that His followers were expected to wield swords and kill people is a lie. (In the history of Christianity it is true that those who had political power were involved in battles for political reasons. Christianity is not a theocracy, however Jesus said that there would be politicians and an earthly ruler. He said, "Give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar, give to God what belongs to God." When rulers accepted Christianity as a result of preaching by the Apostles and other missionaries, there were naturally Christian rulers. Europe accepted Christianity as its official religion. But that must be differentiated from a theocracy where religious leaders seek political power as part of their religion.)
4. Turning out traders from the Temple in righteous anger because they had converted a place of worship into a marketplace, you consider as being contrary to the teaching of Jesus to turn the other cheek? Can you imagine what Muslims would do if a marketplace was set up at the holiest spot in Kabah in Mecca? Worshipping God with all of one's heart, mind and soul was an essential part of Jesus' teaching in accordance with the Old Testament as well. He taught that it was the first most important commandment. So He could not tolerate the place of worship to be insulted by turning it into a marketplace. Jesus forgave everyone as lay dying on the cross. That is the proof that He lived what He preached.
5. The verse you quote in which Jesus said that it would be better for one to gouge out one's OWN eye or cut off one's OWN hand was in context of explaining the sin of adultery. Note that He mentioned it would be BETTER for one to cut off one's OWN hand or gouge out one's OWN eye, RATHER than go to hell. It is easy to understand that He meant it to be a figure of speech to make it clear how strictly one should deal with temptations or triggers that lead to adultery, which is considered a serious sin in all religions. Jesus gave permission for divorce in the case of adultery. He did NOT teach nor mention anyone else should literally gouge out the eyes or cut off the hands of another person who indulged in lust. Any addict being treated for addictions will tell you the importance in dealing with triggers if they are serious about getting well.
What Jesus am I expected to worship as God? The Jesus whose coming was announed many hundred years ago by prophets; the Jesus who was born of a virgin; the Jesus who was worshipped by wise men who came from the East even while He lay in the manger as an infant, unknown to the rest of the world; the Jesus who worked miracles - fed the hungry, gave sight to the blind, raised the dead, healed the leper; the Jesus who was crucified and was raised on the third day; the Jesus for whom His disciples gave up everything; the Jesus whose followers were willing to die for Him; the Jesus whose message was spread by many, many missionaries through centuries enduring hardship and persecution; the Jesus who has inspired millions of people to be good and loving not just to friends but also to enemies...
The same Jesus is mentioned in the Quran along with His teachings, even if many of the details of His life are not mentioned.
Best wishes
Soja
December 19, 2007 4:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 19, 2007 04:32
Moody wrote:
Read Biography of Prophet Mohummud(S.A.W)qouting authentic Hadith [Saying/Actions of Prophet(PBUH) supported by Evidence with chain of links]
BY
- Al Tabari Or
- Ibn -I- Hasham
I thought muslims were good at retrieving the correct verses from the quran or hadiths,
so Mr.Moody please show the verse in - Al Tabari Or - Ibn -I- Hasham where the story of the jewish woman throwing garbage at the prophet was sourced from.
You can ask your islamic brethren for help.
Why is this so difficult Mr. Moody ? are you unable to back up your claims because this is made up ? Not very HONOURABLE.
December 18, 2007 5:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 18, 2007 05:55
Ross,
Muslim reference:
Read Biography of Prophet Mohummud(S.A.W)qouting authentic Hadith [Saying/Actions of Prophet(PBUH) supported by Evidence with chain of links]
BY
- Al Tabari Or
- Ibn -I- Hasham
Western writer:
"Mohummud" (PBUH) By Karen Arm Strom
Documentory: Showing your scholar's comments
"Legacy of Prophet "
by Al Omer Al Qattan and Michael Schwarz.
December 18, 2007 1:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 18, 2007 01:06
TO ANONYMOUS:
You wrote concerning antropomorphism as attributing human form and qualities to God.
Considering that we are humans and that we are limited by human speech in describing some things how else can we speak to each other about God.
I have mentioned that I have met God and I also said that He is Pure Love and I have also said that I didn't physically see Him but that He came into my heart so I could say that I saw God with my heart but does my heart have eyeballs, no, but is it my physical heart or is it my inner being, my spiritual heart so to speak.
I have also mentioned on a previous post that one of the commmandments that God gave was not to make graven images of Him and I said the reason God gave that commandment was that God knew it was impossible to make an image of PURE LOVE.
I thank God that God is literally a Being of Love.
I also thank God that He has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation and His Plan will come to Fruition.
And I also thank God that He is not even remotely like what some of the people that know His Name think that He is.
Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
December 17, 2007 7:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 17, 2007 19:29
TO HALOZCEL:
You wrote, "Dear Thomas Baum,
You say *God is the God of All*.
Yes, of course He is and by All, I mean not only people but everything.
Even tho I refer to God as He, God is not a He or a She or an It but is actually a Trinity of Pure Love.
God is a Trinity yet One and the bible is One as in taken as a whole not sliced and diced as so many do with such spiritual pride.
We are all equal in God's Eyes, we may not comprehend that, we may not believe that and we may not always act that either but God is absolutely nothing like what some of the people that know His Name think that He Is.
God has a Plan and has had that Plan since before creation and God's Plan will come to Fruition.
As I have said, God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable.
Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
December 17, 2007 7:05 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 17, 2007 19:05
Moody wrote:
I as a witness tell you above ref. post are ALL authentic. Though it seems of no use telling you!
Then it should be no problem to locate the source, so please show us where the story of the jewish woman throwing garbage at the prophet was sourced from.
December 17, 2007 4:49 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 17, 2007 04:49
Time and time again the writers of the Christian bible distort and mutilate the words found in the Hebrew bible. Upon closer examination we find the writers not only misquoting the original but also misinterpreting it to mean the opposite of whatt he original text was trying to convey. Take for instance the book of Hebrews chapter 10 which states:
Since the law has only a shadow of the good things to come and not the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered year after year, make perfect those who approach. Otherwise, would they not have ceased being offered, since the worshipers, cleansed once for all, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin year after year. For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,
"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a BODY you have prepared for me;
in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.
Then I said, 'See, God, I have come to do your will, O God' (in the scroll of the book it is written of me)."
When he said above, "You have neither desired nor taken pleasure in sacrifices and offerings and burnt offerings and sin offerings" (these are offered according to the law), then he added, "See, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. And it is by God's will that we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
And every priest stands day after day at his service, offering again and again the same sacrifices that can never take away sins. But when Christ had offered for all time a single sacrifice for sins, "he sat down at the right hand of God," and since then has been waiting "until his enemies would be made a footstool for his feet." Hebrews 10:1-11
The writer tells us that God desires and needs blood in order to forgive sin. Accordingly, Jesus offered himself once and for all and as a final sacrifice so that God will be able to forgive sin. In other words if there is no blood there is no sin forgiveness. Apart from limiting God’s grace and mercy, this sacrificial system is bloody and has all the trimming of a primitive pagan human sacrifice which is to say the least is very revolting and sickening. What kind of a deity who rejects a person’s whole hearted and humble repentance but demands blood to be able to forgive.
The writer of Hebrews quotes from Psalm 40 in order to support his view of the death of Jesus and what it means to him. At first it says “sacrifices and offerings you have not desired”; Okay, that sounds good so far-blood is not necessary for God to forgive. Next the writer indicates that, here Jesus is speaking, “a body you have prepared for me,” As in Jesus’ body was offered to God as a sacrifice. This sounds like a complete u turn from what was said at the beginning. It sounds like the author is trying to extract a meaning from the Psalm which was not there to begin with.
Sure enough, Psalm 40 is clear in its original form which states:
Sacrifice and offering you do not desire,
but you have given me an OPEN EAR.
Burnt offering and sin offering
you have not required.
Then I said, "Here I am;
in the scroll of the book it is written of me.
I delight to do your will, O my God;
your law is within my heart." Psalms 40:6-8
It is claimed that David wrote this Psalm. The Hebrew bible tells us that David committed a sin; He had one woman’s husband sent to the front lines in a war to die in order for him to have his way with her. David recognized his mistake, repented and asked God for forgiveness. He came to the conclusion that God does not require sacrifices but and a repentant heart would do.
Note how the words “BODY you have prepared for me” is not there; Instead the Psalm says:
“have given me an OPEN EAR”; this is close to what is said in Isaiah:
The Lord God has given me the tongue of a teacher, that I may know how to sustain the weary with a word. Morning by morning he wakens--wakens my ear to listen as those who are taught.
The Lord God has opened my ear, and I was not rebellious, I did not turn backward. Isaiah 50:4-5
The author of Hebrews was definitely mistaken in his reading of what David was trying to say. In fact we find in Psalm 40 an idea that is opposite to what the writer of Hebrews and Paul claimed about Jesus’ death and its atonement for the sins of humanity; God does not like sacrifices; God does not need an innocent human being, Jesus in this case, to die or shed his blood to be able to forgive.
If that’s not enough elsewhere, the Psalmist says,
O Lord, open my lips,
and my mouth will declare your praise.
For you have no delight in sacrifice;
if I were to give a burnt offering, you would not be pleased.
The sacrifice acceptable to God is a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Psalm 51:15-17
What David says here demolishes and lays waste to all the Christians claim about sacrifices in general and Jesus and his death specifically.
Also elsewhere in the Hebrew bible this same message is repeated again:
For I desire steadfast love and not sacrifice, the knowledge of God rather than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6
Paul’s dogma and the Christian doctrine of blood atonement has no basis whatsoever in the Hebrew bible. How can two diametrically opposed doctrines, what’s found in the Hebrew bible and the Christian bible, exist in the same book is above any comprehension? It is just foolishness, pure and simple.
Also, Paul is not immune from twisting the Hebrew bible in order to justify his atonement doctrine. He writes in Romans:
Moses writes concerning the righteousness that comes from the law, that "the person who does these things will live by them." But the righteousness that comes from faith says, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down) "or 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say?
"The word is near you, on your lips and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); because if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:5-9
Here Paul claims that righteousness comes only through faith. And if someone ha faith he will be saved.
What that faith entails someone to do is to confess that Jesus was raised from the dead and that’s how righteousness in the sight of God is achieved. His quote about righteousness and faith comes from Deuteronomy. I read the passage in Deuteronomy and I do not see how he came to that conclusion. The passage in Deuteronomy says “The Word is near you on your lips and in your heart”; here the word refers to the Law of Moses and the commandments of God contained in it. It is clear that God requires from the Israelites their obedience to and observance of his commandments and to walk in his ways; and above all his commandments are easy and not hard for anyone to do. So, all I take from reading this specific passage in Deuteronomy is that righteousness in the sight of God is the belief in him and obeying his laws and commandments; in a nut shell that’s exactly the teaching someone finds in the Quran.
The passage in Deuteronomy that Paul alludes to is as follows:
Then you shall again obey the LORD, observing all his commandments that I am commanding you today, and the LORD your God will make you abundantly prosperous in all your undertakings, in the fruit of your body, in the fruit of your livestock, and in the fruit of your soil. For the LORD will again take delight in prospering you, just as he delighted in prospering your ancestors, when you obey the LORD your God by observing his commandments and decrees that are written in this book of the law, because you turn to the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Surely, this commandment that I am commanding you today is not too hard for you, nor is it too far away. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who will go up to heaven for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?" Neither is it beyond the sea, that you should say, "Who will cross to the other side of the sea for us, and get it for us so that we may hear it and observe it?"
No, the word is very near to you; it is in your mouth and in your heart for you to observe.
See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, death and adversity. If you obey the commandments of the LORD your God that I am commanding you today, by loving the LORD your God, walking in his ways, and observing his commandments, decrees, and ordinances, then you shall live and become numerous, and the LORD your God will bless you in the land that you are entering to possess.
But if your heart turns away and you do not hear, but are led astray to bow down to other gods and serve them, I declare to you today that you shall perish; you shall not live long in the land that you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess. I call heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Choose life so that you and your descendants may live, loving the LORD your God, obeying him, and holding fast to him; for that means life to you and length of days, so that you may live in the land that the LORD swore to give to your ancestors, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob.
Deuteronomy 30:
In another one of his epistle, Paul discredits what is said here in Deuteronomy and calls God’s laws and commandments a curse:
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse. Galatians 3:10
Paul also says:
For "no human being will be justified in his sight" by deeds prescribed by the law. Romans 3:20
Obeying the laws of God is not necessary and that is in total contradiction to the above passage found in Deuteronomy.
Let’s see what Jesus has to say about God’s Law:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished. Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Matthew 5:17-20
In conclusion then, Paul is wrong and I should add he is a deceiver and a liar in spite of his claim to the opposite, as in:
- The God and Father of the Lord Jesus, he who is blessed forever, knows that I do not lie. II Corinthians
- what I am writing to you, before God, I do not lie! Galatians
- I am telling the truth, I am not lying Timothy
- I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying. Romans
That's usually a tell tale signs of a liar.
December 16, 2007 6:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 18:24
Josez you idiot
December 16, 2007 10:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 10:08
REMEMBER: Voting for HilLlary Clinton, is same as re-Voting for Prez B. Clinton.
This is 'illegal' , aka PROXY President by Nepotism! Presidential 'Term-Limits' are being violated. Do not be Stupid! The Communist have infiltrated Sweet Sweet U.S.A's Government of 'THE PEOPLE!
So, Please do not vote for 'Hillary & Bill Clinton! Thank You!
IMPORTANT , Sweet Sweet America:
A Russian Communist Conspiracy in Sweet Sweet America "i" now EXPOSED!
HARK Humates of America!:
BEWARE:
Senator 'Chuck Schumer' (of N.Y., a 'Senior Senator) is been "BRIBED' by the RUSSIAN-INTERNATIONAL-MAFIA! Example:
He, Mr. Schumer et al, via "L*U*K OIL" got money from them, (via ex-'GETTY gas station(s) moguls, now turned "Russian Mafia Government Front" as Owners in America. Please call FBI & CIA!] and of Which "Chucky-Boy' Senator SCHUMER promoted , knowingly in such a great 'COMMY' Conspiracy!
Forgive me, but it is true!!!!!!!!!!
ATT: You get pais per "CLICK' , then pay 'US' [free Spirited Bloggers] for Stealing OUR ideas/Writings!
Note: You must Post [ALL & not SENSORED] or repost {hours of WORK (free, but NO more!) thinking & typing) what You-Failed to post. There was No Cuseses. Everything was acoording to 'YOUR' rules, not mine.
Yes, 34,000 people a year in AMERICA , the sweet, comit Suicide. So Better they Volunteer for Army & die Protecting the great REPUBLIC & FEDERATION of "Space-Ship" Planet EARTH against SuperStupidStitious Pre-Apocalyptic BIBLIO, QURANO, GEETAO, MANIACS.
WE "i"nellegent "i"ntellectuals "i"ndividuals. aka, HUMATES (not Humans, as JOKTANIAN, not PELEGIAN,Sporades (Wom) & Mavorites (Man)) Live on space-Ship Earth! aka S.S. GAIA, S.S. GEOID, S.S. TELLUSng Something instead!!
So please post ALL that you have sieved/selected & sensored! Not jus "i", but many many Bloggers!
NOTICE: "NEWS-WEEK" & WASHINGTON POST & CO, et al,;
IT is about your ten 'FACE's. not about our one honest Face's!
You will be sued , in 'Class' like, in Federal Court very very Soon!
not just "i" , but to many you say,
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VOTE:
'NO' to News-Papers Company's owning {your Kids minds future & yours too] against them owning T.V Stations & Satellite Station!
SAY: 'NO' , via F.C.C., to News Paper Company's! 'NO' Broad Casting! Say or Vote, No!
And, Say 'NO' to allowing Religious Satellite Televangelical(s) to broadcast their 'EVIL' Anti-Society Story's & Behavior's too!
Thanks, Eclati-On (nevr Off's) American Mon's & Monsa's!
Take Back your almost Hijacked Nation! Take back Sweet sweet America! Now!
< ?: +)/ Ya Ya!
December 16, 2007 9:27 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 09:27
Liala:
You wrote a wonderful post regarding Western miss leading trend towards Islam in light of their believes like trinity.
T.G.
Excellent Authentic very common Hadiths in Muslim world regarding Prophent's(PBUH) Charactor.
Ross:
I as a witness tell you above ref. post are ALL authentic. Though it seems of no use telling you!
December 16, 2007 7:51 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 07:51
well i don;t know why you're leaving jacob, but i wish you well in your life
peace
December 16, 2007 2:04 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 16, 2007 02:04
Good bye Newsweek, Washington Post, Editor & POST et al:
Good bye every body!
Att: Washington Post, Newsweek & Company; You Suck!
Warning: Do not reproduce, deseminate, plagerize, copy, for profit or gain 'ANY of my "POST" on any onf these 'Onfaith' or "onreligion" bloggs, since MARCH.19/20th of 2007 until NOW! Dec.15th.2007!
Vote: ECLATi-ON Party for GRIDARIAN DEMOCRACY & TRANSFINITE CIVILIZATION 2012 & beyond! Bye Yo ALL!
< ?: +) / Ya Ya!
December 15, 2007 11:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 23:04
Dear Thomas Baum,
You say *God is the God of All*.
*Whoever is baptized will be saved,but whoever does not will be condemned* Mark 16.16
So,in that case proximately 75 percent of the world population will be condemned,so,can we say *the God of All*
Homosexual John says *the homosexuals,liars,murderers etc. will be in the burninig lake* Rev.21.8
How many people will go to the Heaven ??
You always say *be ready,see you in the Kingdom.
Book of God written by human Matthew say *a shephard separates the sheep from the goats* 25.32
Who is sheep and who is goat,only the God knows,so how can you *BOOK* a place from the Heaven ??
Besides,who is the *Last One* is a problem.
According to Christianity *Son of Jew* is the last one and he will come again with a *white horse* as written(to me,a white *spaceship* may be better).
According to islam *Son of Bedouin* is the last one.
So,shall they follow the Lamb or shall they follow the gamel driver ??
Wedding of Lamb or wedding of six years old child girl ??
Dear Baum,who will kiss the fairy girls in the Paradise ??
What will chineses,japaneses,hindus and africans do ??
December 15, 2007 1:29 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 15, 2007 13:29
Anthropomorphism refers to the perception of God in human form and quality. And that is no more evident than what is found in the creation story written in the bible.
We are informed by the author of the Pentateuch that God said "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness," and that "God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him -- male and female created he them."
If this account means anything, it means that man was created in the physical image and likeness of God. Moses while he speaks of man as having been made in the image of God, never speaks of God except as having the form of a man. He speaks of God as "walking in the garden in the cool of the day;" and that Adam and Eve "heard his voice." He is constantly telling what God said, and in a thousand passages he refers to him as not only having the human form, but as performing actions, such as man performs. The God of Moses was a God with hands, with feet, with the organs of speech. A God of passion, of hatred, of revenge, of affection, of repentance; a God who made mistakes: -- in other words, an immense and powerful man.
It will not do to say that Moses meant to convey the idea that God made man in his mental or moral image. Some have insisted that man was made in the moral image of God because he was made pure. Purity cannot be manufactured. A moral character cannot be made for man by a god. Every man must make his own moral character. Consequently, if God is infinitely pure, Adam and Eve were not made in his image in that respect. Otherwise they would not disobey his commands.
Others say that Adam and Eve were made in the mental image of God. If it is meant by that, that they were created with reasoning power like, but not to the extent of those possessed by a god, then this may be admitted. But certainly this idea was not in the mind of Moses. He regarded the human form as being in the image of God, and for that reason always spoke of God as having that form. No one can read the Pentateuch without coming to the conclusion that the author supposed that man was created in the physical likeness of Deity. God said:
"Go to, let us go down."
Come, let Us go down and there confuse their language, that they may not understand one another’s speech.” Genesis 11:7
"God smelled a sweet savor;"
Then Noah built an altar to YHWH, and took of every clean animal and of every clean bird, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And YHWH smelled a soothing aroma. Then YHWH said in His heart, “I will never again curse the ground for man’s sake, although the imagination of man’s heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing as I have done. Genesis 6:20-21
"God repented him that he had made man;"
And YHWH was sorry that he had made humankind on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So YHWH said, "I will blot out from the earth the human beings I have created--people together with animals and creeping things and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." Genesis 6:6-8
"and God said;" and "walked;" and "talked;" and not omniscient of things around him.
And they heard the sound of YHWH Elohim walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of YHWH Elohim among the trees of the garden. Genesis 3:8
Then YHWH Elohim called to Adam and said to him, “Where are you?”
So he said, “I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree of which I commanded you that you should not eat?”
Then the man said, “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I ate.”
And YHWH Elohim said to the woman, “What is this you have done?”
The woman said, “The serpent deceived me, and I ate.”
So YHWH Elohim said to the serpent: “Because you have done this, you are cursed more than all cattle, and more than every beast of the field; on your belly you shall go, and you shall eat dust all the days of your life. Genesis 3:9-14 ---How about that. A dust eating snake!
and "rested."
Thus the heavens and the earth, and all the host of them, were finished. And on the seventh day Elohim ended His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done. Then Elohim blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which Elohim had created and made. Genesis 2:1-3
All these expressions are inconsistent with any other idea than that the person using them regarded God as having the form of man.
As a matter of fact, it is impossible for a man to conceive of a personal God, other than as a being having the human form. No one can think of an infinite being having the form of a horse, or of a bird, or of any animal beneath man. It is one of the necessities of the mind to associate forms with intellectual capacities. The highest form of which we have any conception is man's, and consequently, his is the only form that we can find in imagination to give to a personal God, because all other forms are, in our minds, connected with lower intelligences.
It is impossible to think of a personal God as a spirit without form. We can use these words, but they do not convey to the mind any real and tangible meaning. Every one who thinks of a personal God at all, thinks of him as having the human form. Take from God the idea of form; speak of him simply as an all pervading spirit -- which means an all pervading something about which we know nothing -- and Pantheism is the result.
The question is asked, how were Adam and Eve created?
In one account, Genesis chapter one, they are created male and female on the sixth day of creation, and apparently at the same time.
Then Elohim said, Let Us make man in our image, according to our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So Elohim created man in His own image; in the image of Elohim He created him; male and female He created them. … So the evening and the morning were the sixth day. Genesis 1:26-27
In the next account, Genesis chapter 2, Adam is created first, and Eve a long time afterwards, and from a part of the man. In other words, after the creation that took six days and the rest he took during the seventh day, God found out that Adam needed a helper and after trial and error he decided to create Eve.
And YHWH Elohim formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being… Then YHWH Elohim took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to tend and keep it… And YHWH Elohim said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.”
Out of the ground YHWH Elohim formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. Genesis 2:7-20
So the creation of Eve was an after thought, in order to please Adam because the animals did not grab his attention.
And YHWH Elohim caused a deep sleep to fall on Adam, and he slept; and He took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh in its place. Then the rib which YHWH Elohim had taken from man He made into a woman, and He brought her to the man. And Adam said: “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.” Genesis 2:21-22
If the Mosaic account is true, we know how long man has been upon this earth. If that account can be relied on, the first man was made about five thousand eight hundred and eighty-three years ago. Sixteen hundred and fifty-six years after the making of the first man, the inhabitants of the world, with the exception of eight people, were destroyed by a flood. This flood occurred only about four thousand two hundred and twenty-seven years ago. If this account is correct, at that time, only one kind of men existed. Noah and his family were certainly of the same blood. It therefore follows that all the differences we see between the various races of men have been caused in about four thousand years. If the account of the deluge is true, then since that event all the ancient kingdoms of the earth were founded, and their inhabitants passed through all the stages of savage, nomadic, barbaric and semi-civilized life; through the epochs of Stone, Bronze and Iron; established commerce, cultivated the arts, built cities, filled them with palaces and temples, invented writing, produced a literature and slowly fell to shapeless ruin. We must believe that all this has happened within a period of four thousand years.
From representations found upon Egyptian granite made more than three thousand years ago, we know that the Negro was as black, his lips as full, and his hair as closely curled then as now. If we know anything, we know that there was at that time substantially the same difference between the Egyptian and the Negro as now. If we know anything, we know that magnificent statues were made in Egypt four thousand years before our era -- that is to say, about six thousand years ago. There was at the World's Exposition, in the Egyptian department, a statue of king Cephren, known to have been chiseled more than six thousand years ago. In other words, if the Mosaic account must be believed, this statue was made before the world. We also know, if we know anything, that men lived in Europe with the hairy mammoth, the cave bear, the rhinoceros, and the hyena. Among the bones of these animals have been found the stone hatchets and flint arrows of our ancestors. In the caves where they lived have been discovered the remains of these animals that had been conquered, killed and devoured as food, hundreds of thousands of years ago.
It will not now do to say that man has existed upon this earth for only about six thousand years. One can hardly compute in his imagination the time necessary for man to emerge from the barbarous state, naked and helpless, surrounded by animals far more powerful than he, to progress and finally create the civilizations of India, Egypt and Athens. The distance from savagery to Shakespeare must be measured not by hundreds, but by millions of years.
December 15, 2007 1:24 PM |