All Comments (124)

Dear Victoria

I notice you have posted. I had actually announced my "retirement" on Pamela Taylor's thread because I had nothing original to contribute and nothing new to learn from a strictly Islamic perspective based on Taylor's essays. Her lack of response to my posts had begun to offend my vanity as well! ;)

We had gone through this discussion before on one of Eboo Patel's threads. I know that you, as a Christian convert to Islam, believe Jesus was referring to Mohammad when He talked of the coming of the Holy Spirit (the term Comforter being merely one of the descriptions). I see no verse in the Quran to support your claim, for Mohammad made no mention that he was the Holy Spirit promised by Jesus. Anyway, it is hard to convince any Christian that the Pentecost did not mark the coming of the Holy Spirit, the verses in the Book of Acts referring to it have no significance, and most of all that Jesus was going to comfort His disciples six hundred years later by sending a man to Mecca. If it makes perfect sense to you to believe that Jesus was referring to a man who would be born six hundred years later in another part of the world, then go right ahead and believe it. But please don't get annoyed with the two billion Christians who find your explanation a bit far fetched.

Best wishes
Soja

i have no idea what that has to do with our conversaton

did you forget what we were discussing?

we can continue here if you like- some of the finer points of what i considered the holy spirit, its nature etc-

as ive put the etymological roots of it (from catholic dictionary) it is one of the reasons i became muslim in particular-

the comforter seemed clearly the Prophet(pbuh) to me-
the ruh-ul-quddus which was translated as holy spirit- is another issue altogether

especially the catholic concept of holy spirit-

honestly there was never a successful analogy for it to me- ice, shamrocks,eggs- etc---
has always seemed like a rationale tacked on to support an idea that wasnt there to begin with-

i also could never dismiss the first commandment which states that god is one- and there are no other gods beside/before (him/her) (depending on which translation you read-

to be honest, ive always felt it bordered on some magic or superstition and shifted dependence on the god to another being-

but it was studying the bible that led me to these conclusions- not the words of priests or pastors-

the old, "its a mystery" argument just never made any sense- and the bible doesnt seem to offer any demands anywhere that we use our intelligence to reason either-

why would the god give us an intelligence and then tell us not to use it?

that never made sense either-

even if you look back at the politics of the council of nicea and the formation of the trinitiy- we all might be folowing an arian code if arius hadnt been murdered on the way to the council-

the decisions reached at the council were highly suspect to say the least- and yet it is followed without question!
word first useD BY ORIGEN?

this is the problem-
i am not going to do yourreasoning for you-
you have to do that yourself-
saying the answer lies within 4 pages of cut and pastes-
it isnt an answer soja-

there is the original unanswered question-

can you reason yourself and explain , without resorting to quick cut and pastes?

Dear Victoria

The answers to your questions are contained in the Bible passages I cut and paste. The Bible is the best source of information. As to an academic discussion, I'm sure you are aware that Jewish and Christian religious scholars have already had several over the centuries and come to the conclusion that they have to agree to disagree. Do you think you and I are going to break ground when the scholars themselves could not, when Mohammad himself could not?

The book by Pope Benedict, 'Jesus of Nazareth' is very good and provides a scholarly response to your questions too.

I read the following in the introduction to J M Rodwell's translation of the Quran (which provides cross reference to Jewish and Christian Scripture):

"Another important merit of J M Rodwell's edition is its chronological arrangement of the Suras or chapters. As he tells us himself in his preface, it is now in a number of cases impossible to ascertain the exact occasion on which a discourse, or part of a discourse, was delivered, so that the system could not be carried through with entire consistency. But the sequence adopted is in the main based on the best available historical and literary evidence; and in following the order of the chapters as here printed, the reader will be able to trace the development of the prophet's mind as he gradually advanced from the early flush of inspiration to the less spiritual and more equivocal role of warrior, politician, and founder of an empire."

G. Margoliouth

"A line of argument to be adopted by a Christian in dealing with a Muhammadan should be, not to attack Islam as a mass of error, but to shew that it contains fragments of disjointed truth–that it is based upon Christianity and Judaism partially understood–especially upon the latter, without any appreciation of its typical character pointing to Christianity as a final dispensation.

"Muhammad can scarcely have failed to observe the opportunity offered for the growth of a new power, by the ruinous strifes of the Persians and Greeks. Abulfeda (Life of Muhammad, p. 76) expressly says that he had promised his followers the spoils o Chosroes and Cæsar."

From the notes on Sura 5: "Of the leading features of the character of the Muslims none is more remarkable thant their religious pride. They regard persons of every other faith as the children of perdition; and such the Muslim is early taught to despise. They are however, 'as remarkable for their moderation as for their contempt of unbelievers."

End of quote
-----------

So Victoria, while I respect your stand as a Muslim and the stand of all Muslims, I continue to remain a Christian by conviction even after reading the Quran.

Agreeing to disagree is the best we can do.

Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year 2008!

Best wishes
Soja

soja- why does this always happen?

you engage in a conversation, leave a bunch of cut and pastes, and never really respond to specific points-

then when questions come you have no answer for, you disappear.
why bother?

i refer you back to the unfinished conversation and unanswered questions i posted

then well deal with new accusations, ok?

Errata

I meant that Christians and Jews objected to Mohammad's accusation that they had got their own Scripture wrong, i.e. Jews not Muslims!

Dear Victoria

I am fully aware that you are an ex-Christian. The long cut and paste is for the purpose of informing other Muslims who may not be familiar with the Bible as you are. I take it that you are not the only Muslim reading these blogs and our exchange ought to make sense to others as well.

I already mentioned in my response to one of the earlier essays by Pamela Taylor (her explanation of the Islamic take on Jesus)that Muslims are free to interpret Jesus as they like. They cannot however expect Christians to accept that interpretation. Just because Mohammad decided to rewrite the Bible for the Muslims claiming all the Jews and Christians had got their own Scripture wrong, doesn't make it true. If it were all Jews and Christians would have converted to Islam based on Mohammad's claims. Many verses in the Quran point to the objections raised by Christians and Muslims in Mohammad's day. That proves that not even Mohammad himself got very far with his reinvention of the Jewish and Christian Scripture.

Maybe you could explain why the Quran gives a list of wars fought against the Jewish tribes, why there was a need to put the Jews to the sword in the first place. If Allah, the name of one of the gods the Arab pagans worshipped, is the same as YHWH of the Jews and God the Father of Christianity (God of Abraham), why didn't Mohammad convert to Judaism or Christianity instead? Why did he feel the need to found a new religion?

Is it not possible that Mohammad was asking the Arab tribes to stop worshipping idols since Allah, the god of the Arab pagans had three daughters, (or so the introduction to the Quran tells me)? After all neither the Jews nor the Christians worshipped idols, but the Arab pagans did? Perhaps Mohammad's repeated reminder that god does not produce offspring refers to the daughters of Allah that the Arab pagans worshipped?

What religious aspect is exactly unique about Islam? Why are all the religious concepts borrowed directly from The Book, with certain "corrections"?

Could it be that Allah, the pagan god, was given the attributes of YHWH in the Bible?

If Mohammad was a prophet, what exactly did he prophesy?

Jews and Christians could easily interpret the Quran based on Jewish and Christian Scripture. A Muslim may not accept it all.

Do reread our exchange about the Bhagavad Gita on Eboo Patel's thread, "Discrimination against Muslims." BTW, a Hindu would have no problem with accepting that Jesus Christ was an incarnation of God. In fact some Hindu reformers like Ramakrishna, Vivekanda and Sivananda already have.

Best wishes
Soja

soja- pleae- I NEVER ASKED YOU WHAT THE CONCEPT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT IN CHRISTIANITY IS AT ALL-

actually- i asked you to refrain from long copy and pastes as its a subject im already familar with- and have much of what you posted memorized myself-

back to the original point-
(yes- i think its pretty well understood that the allegory of god as the lover is symbolic, no one has suggested otherwise- there are however many stories as you well know- that depict krishna as the lover- yes we got it along time ago- the lover and the beloved-)

11-24- 3:49AM

soja- you posted-
" 2:87 The Quran states, "To Moses We gave the Scriptures and after him We sent other apostles. We gave Jesus son of Mary veritable signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i can understand how there migh be confusion on this from a christian perspective
possibly the cloeset one could come would be the 'spirit of holiness' as regards gabriel-

*********************************************
it says..."SUPPORTED Him with Ruh-ul-Quddus(Gabriel-Jibreel)
*******************************************

i just wanted to clarify the usage of that particular phrase- since it is fraught with heavy meaning for christians that are into necessarily the sense communicated in islam-

it would be easily confused, as being the same holy spirit (parokletos formerly expounded upon)

this is an exellent article i found on the subject

actually- you never commented on the definition of parakleos form the catholic dictionary either-

please- no more long cut and pastes

reasoning, and insight

for instance- if you post a verse- comment on how you interpret it-
for you r long pastes- my interpretation is clearly different than yours becuase i am starting with a different base and premise-

as a catholic it was my stdies of the bible that led me to the conclusion that Jesus(ara) was NOT god-
for instance-
Jesus(ata) refers to himslef 72 SEVENTY TWO different times n the bible as a MAN-
thats alot

so if my premise is that Jesus(ata) was a prophet and a man- my conclusions reached from what you posted will be quite different

now ive already tried to reconcile the differences in the bible with the doctrine of Jesus'(ata) divinity-
and found myself unable to maintain it

ive already seen your perspective

if you want to get into that opic thats fine, but it would be logical to finsih the first topic before that

now you seemed to think that the qu'ran was substantiating your view of the holy spirit-
go and read the long article posted

hence the original misunderstanding

Dear Victoria

Regarding your interpretation about my attitude towards the Bhagavad Gita: I suggest you reread our exchange on Eboo Patel's thread, 'Discrimination against Muslims.'

In response to your rather strange notion of Krishna's relationship to married women (although Hindu spirituality, even in the Gita, is about the soul, which emphasises overcoming the sensual desires of the body in order for the human soul to realise God)I posted my response. In that context I also mentioned my own acquaintance with the Gita, starting from school when I memorised a whole chapter in Sanskrit. In that thread I also quoted from the introduction on the Gita in the book written by Dom Bede Griffiths (which you have repeated almost verbatim on this thread). And last but not by any means the least I mentioned that Fr Bede had me read verses from the Gita during the religious ceremony on 22 February 1992(my first ceremony to become a Benedictine Oblate)and he gave me a spiritual name taken from the Gita, "Priya," meaning,'Beloved of God,' (please note that it is NOT meant in a romantic and sexual sense!)Like Saul became Paul, Soja was made into Priya. Unfortunately I did not return to India to have the final ceremony one year later. Fr Bede passed away on 13 May 1993.

I understand that since you have posted thousands of messages you might have forgotten our earlier exchange. This is just a reminder of our original exchange quite a while ago.

Best wishes
Soja

PS:

1. The worldwide interest in Islam, as a religion, was sparked only as a result of the terrorist attacks in the name of Islam. It is only because of the real and present danger of violence in the name of Islam that non-Muslims would like to get to the bottom of the religion to find out if the Quran actually sanctions use of violence on innocent civilians. It is heartening to hear from some Muslims that such violence as the terrorists resort to is against the Quran. The world can rest in peace only when all 1.3 billion Muslims agree and act on that claim. Until such time, governments are forced to remain vigilant in order to protect all its citizens from terrorist attacks in the name of Islam.

2. The ex-Muslims posting on this forum also informed us that the punishment for leaving Islam is no less than death. As ex-Muslims they live in fear for their lives and need the protection of the secular governments of the non-Muslim countries they live in. That is a matter of concern to all non-Muslims who care as much for the human rights of ex-Muslims as anybody else.

3. The reaction of many Muslims to the Pope's citation in a university lecture, the Danish cartoons etc. is of serious concern to all non-Muslims who believe in universal human rights of free speech and freedom of expression. We know of no other religion that metes out such punishment for such reasons. The world is however all too familiar with political regimes that do not tolerate dissent and criticism. Hence we would like to know if such (what we would consider completely irrational and inappropriate) reaction is Quran based.

4. All non-Muslims are fully aware that the reform of Islam must occur from within, and we encourage and support all work done by anyone towards that end. Just as the Catholic Church benefited from outside criticism to reform its less than Christian practises (luckily none of which was Bible based), so must Islam endure criticism from outside to force reform from within. Rationalising any fact based criticism does not serve to silence the critics at all, and does the image of Islam no good. Non-Muslims reserve the right to raise objections when their safety and human rights are infringed upon, including the rights of ex-Muslims, in the name of a religion, even if it is called Islam, the religion of peace. Yes, non-Muslims will judge Islam only according to its fruits. Non-Muslims do not expect to be judged by Muslims in any other way either.

5. I continue to respect and admire all that is good in Muslims and respect every single Muslim as a human being created in the image and likeness of God. I still feel the same sense of awe and inner raising of my spirit to God (even if I do not call Him Allah) when I hear the Muslim call to prayer from the Mosque. I still love all the great Sufi mystics and their wisdom. I still love the beauty of Sufi music.

Dear Victoria

As I write this my earlier posts have not yet appeared. When it does you will notice that I have posted Bible passages to confirm the Christian view of Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Of course I understand that you view Christianity and Islam from a Muslim perspective. You rejected Christianity and converted to Islam and therefore accept the Quranic “correction” of the Bible instead. I remain a Christian because of my conviction about the message in the Bible. Therefore you should not expect me to agree with Islamic interpretations of the Bible. Christianity has vast, extremely sophisticated scholarship spanning two thousand years. So if I wanted to read complex, scholarly Bible interpretations from a Christian perspective, I would choose Christian authors and Jewish authors if I wanted Judaic interpretation of the Old Testament. I would want to read Muslim authors only to understand something that is non-Biblical and uniquely Islamic.

David was “most absolutely a prophet” only according to Islam, but is considered a King according to Jews and Christians. As a Christian of course I know that most of the Psalms are attributed to King David. As an ex-Christian of course you know that the Book of Psalms in its entirety is part of the Bible and that it is used as part of worship as much by Christians as by the Jews. There are several verses and thoughts from the Psalms scattered throughout the Quran.

Christians accepted the Old Testament, the Jewish Scripture, exactly as it is, but Islam has its own “corrected” and edited version of the OT and NT. Why?

I did not imply that the OT is the secular history of Israel. It goes without saying that any history contained in Scripture would be narrated from the perspective of the development of the religion. Scripture is not meant to be a history textbook.

Although there are many different translations of the Bible, the core message remains the same. The hair splitting discussions based on the nuances of the translation of Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek words are of interest only to Bible scholars and theologians. Regarding the different translations of the Quran: “Since kufic script in which the Quran was originally written contained no indication of vowels or diacritical points, variant readings are recognized by Muslims as of equal authority.” No such variance relating to the original language of the Bible exists in its translation.

On what grounds should Christianity/Christians be competing with Islam/Muslims? It is true that there are 1.3 billion Muslims worldwide. Two billion (one third of the world’s population) remain Christian and there are 200 million Jews. The Western civilization of today owes much of its glory to Judeo-Christian contribution. Unlike Islam, there is no punishment for leaving Christianity, so it cannot be said that anyone is being forced to remain Christian.

We live in an age when the threat is not about Christians adopting Islam or Muslims converting to Christianity, but about people not finding any use for religions; most of all about believers of all religious stripes being followers only in name.

The article you posted (you did not provide the name of the author despite my request) does not reflect the Quranic train of thought in any way and seems to be a rather clumsy patchwork of non-Islamic ideas I’m familiar with from other traditions.

Best wishes
Soja

To all Muslims:

Moses is mentioned in the Quran several times. I was suprised however that the Ten Commandments is not mentioned in the Quran, although The Ten Commandments forms the essence of the covenant made by God with Israel. It is said to have been written on two stone tablets and given to Moses. The stone tablets with the commandments written on them was treated with the utmost reverence by the Jews; meditating on God's laws "day and night' and obeying them, in order to imitate God in His holiness, forms the cornerstone of Judaism. Jesus said that He had not come to do away with the laws of holiness but to fulfill them.

The Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:1-19; Deuteronomy 5:1-22)

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

18 When the people saw the thunder and lightning and heard the trumpet and saw the mountain in smoke, they trembled with fear. They stayed at a distance 19 and said to Moses, "Speak to us yourself and we will listen. But do not have God speak to us or we will die."

20 Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

21 The people remained at a distance, while Moses approached the thick darkness where God was.

To all Muslims:

The link to chapter 17 of the Gospel of John and verses from the Book of Acts about the coming of the Holy Spirit that Jesus talked about at the Last Supper:

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=john17

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=acts2

The Holy Spirit Comes at Pentecost

1 When the day of Pentecost came, they were all together in one place.

2 Suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting.

3 They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them.

4 All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak in other tongues [a] as the Spirit enabled them.

5 Now there were staying in Jerusalem God-fearing Jews from every nation under heaven.

6 When they heard this sound, a crowd came together in bewilderment, because each one heard their own language being spoken.

7 Utterly amazed, they asked: "Aren't all these who are speaking Galileans?

8 Then how is it that each of us hears them in our native language?

9 Parthians, Medes and Elamites; residents of Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,

10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya near Cyrene; visitors from Rome

11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism); Cretans and Arabs—we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!"

12 Amazed and perplexed, they asked one another, "What does this mean?"

13 Some, however, made fun of them and said, "They have had too much wine."

To all Muslims:

This is continuation of my response to Victoria about what Jesus said about Himself and who the Holy Spirit is according to the belief of Christians.

As mentioned in the earlier post, the Gospel of John chapters 14-17 is the message and prayer of Jesus at the Last Supper.

Here the links for chapters 15 and 16:

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=john15

http://www.ibs.org/niv/passagesearch.php?passage_request=john16

Dear Victoria

Along with the Ten Commandments given to Moses, the Sermon on the Mount sums up the teaching of Christianity. That is why it has to be treated as a single unit. The parables Jesus used in order to teach, may be considered merely elaborations on the theme. Similarly the message of Jesus to His disciples at the Last Supper, and His prayer for them and all believers to come, is a single unit (Gospel of John, chapters 14-17) and has to be treated as such to understand the core beliefs on which Christanity is founded.

I have chosen passages I consider relevant only to illustrate the Christian perspective on issues you raised. I hope you understand that not every Muslim has had the opportunity to live in a Franciscan convent for many years as a noice (noviciate) as you have and therefore may not be aware of the Biblical verses you are so familiar with. I take it that other Muslims besides you, Ms Taylor and Jihadist are reading these discussions, hence my post is addressed to all Muslims.

To be contd...

Best wishes
Soja

soja- those are kind of disjointed verses (and long)

please go back again and read what i posted

these verses have no earing on aything i said at all- which was many points

where did you learn that david was not a prophet?
ask your priest

this last post actually proves the manhood of jesus(ata) not the godhead of jesus(ata)

when jesus(ata) refused to trun the stones to bread, he said MAN does not live by bread alone-

he was a man who would not test god

anyway- loooong posts but no meaning or tie up!
put it together into something

please, i dont make looong cut and pastes and expect you to construct something out of it-

i posted a WHOLE LOT OF CORRECTIONS backed up-

- if you want to discuss- go read what i actually posted

honestly, ive read this stuff a hundred (more) times in my life-

if i make a point- its a clear one

please, no looong cut and pastes

no one said the spirit is all spirits

the loooong last supper verses you posted (why?)
answer nothing

you left out the part where god tells samuel that HE DOESNT WANT A HUMAN KING OVER ISRAEL!!!!

please- go back and read your own scripture
read the whole story

now maybe youve gotten this out of your system you can go back to the original points-
the construction of the trinitarian concept at nicea
the meaning of the word parekletos

the 200 translations of the bible in english
the wide differences between them

compare king james to new world

you have to construct your own linear logic here-
and present it

whatever is in your mind that you think i sself evident (like the temptation verse "proving" jesus(ata) divinity????????????)

clearly- you need to elaborate with some logical thinking and cant expect anyone to do the work to prove your point

what is your point?
i made a lot of points-
just pick one, any one- and follow it through

My earlier posts have not appeared on the thread yet hence I prefer to wait until they do before I continue.

To all Muslims:

This is to continue on the theme brought up by Victoria about who Jesus was.

The Temptations of Jesus as described in the Bible

"Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting for forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.

"The tempter came to him and said, ‘If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.’ Jesus answered, ‘It is written:’Man does not live by bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

“Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written: “He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, that you will not strike your foot against a stone.” Jesus answered him, “It is also written, ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’

"Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendour. “All this I will give to you, “ he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.” Jesus said to him, ‘Away from me, Satan! For it is written: “Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.’

"Then the devil left him, and the angels came and attended him.”

(Matthew 4:1-11)

My personal comments:

- Jesus fasted forty days and nights.

- The devil knew exactly who Jesus was!

- The fact that even Jesus was tempted proves that the devil is not beyond tempting the one is who is closest to God. The closer one gets to God, the greater and subtler is the temptation. It was necessary to be tested by the devil before one would be ready for God's work. The choice for God has to be consciously and freely made.

- Feeling drawn to have worldly power is a great temptation for anyone who gets close to God and Jesus said a conscious "No." He was aware that His kingdom was not of this world. The temptation to put God to the test by making all sorts of unreasonable requests seems to be stumbling block for those who get close to God it seems to which Jesus said "No."

To all Muslims:

David, the king (since Victoria made a reference to David as a prophet in one of her earlier posts)

The Quran refers to everyone from the Bible mentioned in it as prophets, including David.

However, according to the Bible David is a king, not a prophet.

The Quran says, "We have exalted some prophets above others. To David We gave the Psalms." (17:56)

According to the Bible, Samuel the prophet was sent to choose David as future king. (1 Samuel 16:1-13)

“All the tribes of Israel came to David at Hebron and said, “We are your own flesh and blood. In the past, while Saul was king over us, you were the one who led Israel on their military campaigns. And the Lord said to you, “You shall shepherd my people Israel, and you shall become their ruler.”

When all the elders of Israel had come to Kind David at Hebron, the king made a compact with them at Hebron before the Lord, and they anointed David King over Israel. David was thirty years old when he became king, and he reigned for forty years.”

(2 Samuel 5:1-4)

In the Book of Acts, Paul gives a summary of the Old Testament and the confirmation of Jesus Christ as the promised Messiah thus:

“Standing up, Paul motioned with his hand and said: ‘Men of Israel and you Gentiles who worship God, listen to me! The God of the people of Israel chose our fathers; he made the people prosper during their stay in Egypt, with mighty power he led them out of that country, he endured their conduct for about forty years in the desert, he overthrew seven nations in Canaan and gave their land to his people as their inheritance. All this took about 450 years.

“After this, God gave them judges until the time of Samuel the prophet. Then the people asked for a king, and he gave them Saul son of Kish, of the tribe of Benjamin, who ruled for forty years. After removing Saul, he made David their king. He testified concerning him: ‘I have found David son of Jesse a man after my own heart; he will do everything I want him to do.’

“From this man’s descendents God has brought to Israel the Saviour Jesus, as he promised. Before the coming of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel. As John was completing his work, he said: ‘Who do you think I am? I am not that one. No, but he is coming after me, whose sandals I am not worthy to untie.’

“Brothers, children of Abraham, and you God-fearing Gentiles, it is to us that this message of salvation has been sent. The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, and yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. Though they found no proper ground for a death sentence, they asked Pilate to have him executed. When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb. But God raised him from the dead, and for many days he was seen by those who had travelled with him from Galilee to Jerusalem. They are now his witnesses to our people.

“We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: “You are my Son, today I have become your Father.” The fact that God raised him from the dead, never to decay, is stated in the words: ‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings promised to David.’ So it is stated: ‘You will not let your Holy One see decay.’ For when David had served God’s purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

“Therefore my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you. Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the Law of Moses. Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you: “Look, you scoffers, wonder and perish, for I am going to do something in your days that you would never believe, even if someone told you.”

(Acts 13:16-41)

Dear Victoria

Just as the Quran is the best source to verify any claims made by Muslims, so is the Bible the first source to verify Christian claims. For me, as a lay person who is open to the leading of the Holy Spirit because of my faith in Jesus Christ, it is all the more important to look to the Bible for answers first.

The Holy Spirit is for Christians the third person in the Trinity, one God in three persons. The Holy Spirit is not just any Spirit, but is specifically associated with Jesus. During the Last Supper, Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit after He was gone (Gospel of John, chapters 14-17). Accordingly the Holy Spirit was sent on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:1-12). The Holy Spirit transformed the fear and doubt filled Apostles into fearless missionaries who would spread the good news about Jesus and lay down their lives for Him.

So here some more verses straight from the Bible to know what Jesus had to say about Himself and the Holy Spirit, and I will address them to all Muslims.

Best wishes
Soja
------------------

To all Muslims:

The words of Jesus at the Last Supper

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms (other translation: mansions); if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.

Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No-one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father?' Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me who is doing his work. Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

"If you love me, you will obey what I command.

"And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counsellor to be with you for ever - the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me any more, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realise that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

"Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me.

"He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching.

"My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him.

"He who does not love me will not obey my teaching.

"These words you hear are not my own: they belong to the Father who sent me.

"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counsellor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me."

My personal comments:

- One notices that the Apostles of Jesus had doubts about His identity even though they had spent three unbroken years in His company, being taught by Him and had witnessed all His miracles firsthand. The Jews who followed Jesus were definitely not blind followers. They doubted and questioned Jesus at every turn and Jesus respected their doubts and questioning and explained everything to His disciples over and over again. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit who would continue to remind and teach His disciples. In other words, Jesus expected His disciples to need more teaching and more reminders of His teaching.

- Jesus made an incredible man, a claim made by no other human being in history before Him or since: He said, " I am the way, and the truth, and the life." He did NOT say, I came to show the way, to teach the truth or teach a way to gain life. He claimed He was the way, the truth and the life itself!

- Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, who claimed was God. He chided Philip for wanting to see the Father in spite of being in His company. Jesus thus claimed to be one with the Father while at the same time claiming His human side by saying that His Father was greater than Him, God the totally transcendent.

- Jesus referred to the Holy Spirit as being associated specifically with Him, and did not make a general claim about all spirits being the Holy Spirit.

- Jesus emphasizes over and over again that the way to prove to show one's love for Him was to obey His commands. We know for certain Jesus was not one to be impressed with empty words, "Lord, Lord." He wanted proof in action.

- Jesus made astounding promises to those who accepted Him: the promise to be with them through the gift of the Holy Spirit, to teach and comfort, the presence of God, His own peace... He not only cared so much but He wanted His disciples to do even greater things in the world than He had done! How many teachers do we know who want their followers/pupils to be greater than themselves?

To be contd...

sorry i didnt go back to the mubarak post- i didnt answer but it was a very nice post
peace

we can continue here if you like- some of the finer points of what i considered the holy spirit, its nature etc-

as ive put the etymological roots of it (from catholic dictionary) it is one of the reasons i became muslim in particular-

the comforter seemed clearly the Prophet(pbuh) to me-
the ruh-ul-quddus which was translated as holy spirit- is another issue altogether

especially the catholic concept of holy spirit-

honestly there was never a successful analogy for it to me- ice, shamrocks,eggs- etc---
has always seemed like a rationale tacked on to support an idea that wasnt there to begin with-

i also could never dismiss the first commandment which states that god is one- and there are no other gods beside/before (him/her) (depending on which translation you read-

to be honest, ive always felt it bordered on some magic or superstition and shifted dependence on the god to another being-

but it was studying the bible that led me to these conclusions- not the words of priests or pastors-

the old, "its a mystery" argument just never made any sense- and the bible doesnt seem to offer any demands anywhere that we use our intelligence to reason either-

why would the god give us an intelligence and then tell us not to use it?

that never made sense either-

even if you look back at the politics of the council of nicea and the formation of the trinitiy- we all might be folowing an arian code if arius hadnt been murdered on the way to the council-

the decisions reached at the council were highly suspect to say the least- and yet it is followed without question!
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"The Nicene Creed introduced the word "homoousious" or "consubstantial" meaning "of one substance." This word was not invented at the Council. Eusebius writes that some of the "most learned and distinguished of the ancient bishops had made use of consubstantial in treating of the divinity of the Father and the Son" (See document E in the Appendix, Baker). We do not have the sources that Eusebius must have had regarding the use of this word. Today, the only source is Origen who used the word in what seems the orthodox way (Johannes Quastren, "Patrology," Volume 2, p78). However, this phrase of Eusebius stands as a witness to the existence of wider use.
The bishops assembled at Nicea were careful to explain how they used the word, and what it meant. This is because it had been misused by Paul of Samosta. Regarding this unorthodox usage, St. Hilary and St. Basil say that it was said to be "unfit to describe the relation between the Father and the Son" at a council that met in Antioch (Ibid, p14). Apparently Paul of Samosta applied the word in a manner that implied division of nature, as several coins are from the same metal (Baker, p21).

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the word first useD BY ORIGEN?

anyway, those are some quick points
peace

nov.24, 2:59AM

ok, well since you have time now, theres alot of info there-

Dear Victoria

When our posts crossed, it was evening here in Sydney, the day of federal elections in Australia - Saturday, 24 November 2007. As an Australian citizen who had cast my vote that day(voting is compulsory in Australia) I was interested to follow the election results. Do you consider that as a valid reason for not taking the time to respond immediately to your long post which required me to consider the response (since I normally write spontaneously)?

You posted an article for my consideration without naming the author. Since I'm passionate about giving due credit where credit is due, could you please provide the name of the author, with some detail of the religious and educational background, if available? It might give a valuable clue also to the origin of the non-Muslim terminology and concepts used in the article.

FYI: Ms Pamela Taylor has never responded to a single post that I addressed to her, although she has taken the time to respond personally to several bloggers on her threads. Jihadist had not responded to my post addressed personally to her either. What motive am I to ascribe to their silence? You should know better since you are able to understand the mind of a Muslim woman better than me. I can speculate as to what their motives might be, but I would be completely wrong in assuming that I'm infallible in my assumptions. Similarly you don't always respond the way I would rather have you respond (for instance you did not respond to my last post addressed to you on Ms Mubarak's thread) and yet it does not occur to me to assume I know exactly why you act the way you do. Might you then be kind enough to give me the time I require to respond adequately to your lengthy post?

Best wishes
Soja

we were even posting at the exact same time, you couldnt have missed it

soja- you said you wanted to learn about the premises of islam to create understanding

yet all you did was paste and run

i spent alot of effort on responding specifically to your contentions, as did HL

i have to say, your stated intentions are ringing a little hollow

victoria wrote:
thats the nigeriam government ross-
i have no idea what charlatan came up with that reasoning

Why is it when Mo orders a woman to be stoned (even if she asked for it according to you) it is a matter of the woman's reconciliation with Allah, and when the islamic courts of nigeria do the same you call them "charlatans" ?

Why is the stoning in case of Mo different from the one ordered by the nigerian sharia courts ? I'm sure both bled to death having their heads cracked.

victoria wrote:
i have no idea what charlatan came up with that reasoning

Nor do you have ant idea what islam is about,
the charlatans are the scholars of islam throughout the centuries starting from Mo and his alter ego called Allah.

What makes you think you know better than the sharia scholars and their islamic courts in nigeria, saudi, pakistan, qatar, jordan, egypt ..... etc ?

thats the nigeriam government ross-
i have no idea what charlatan came up with that reasoning

ok soja-
you claim youre not an evangelist-
but you have no response to detailed answers

more cut and paste

thanks for sharing

victoria wrote:
a woman who is raped does not provide "witnesses"

What religion are you following ? In islam a woman needs four witnesses to prove she had been raped and arrest the rapist. Failing which she could be accused of adultery and the rapist gets away scot free. Live with it, in islam the laws never favour the woman.

here's more from the above post:
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DNA is not accepted in Islam, but at least 4 witnesses of reputable character, should give testimony of the actual penetration of the sexual intercourse to convict him. You might ask, who has sexual intercourse in front of 4 witnesses? I can also ask you "how can you consider 4 men watching others' sexual intercourse, as reputable characters?".But, there is no question or denying that this is not a traditonal, customary, cultural or a kangaroo court, but a legal Islamic court, with legal Islamic judges and legal expert Islamic officials, in the muslim state of Bakori ( Nigeria), of the legal Government, democratically elected by the Muslim citizens of this state. These are the undeniable authentic facts, which no amount of words or actions can ever repudiate.
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EYEWITNESS TO STONING WOMAN IN SAUDI ARABIA FOR ADULTERY

When I was sent to Riyadh for a month to work with the US Air Force for a joint assignment, I never realized the sights I'd see. One of them was a public stoning. All I saw was a woman standing in a hole tied to a post, she was shoulder deep in the hole. The guy I was with wanted to see it. It's rare that westerners are even allowed to see this They gathered around this poor girl for around an hour, throwing rocks at her.

Stoning a human to death

Dear readers, please put on your thinking cap and imagine a mental picture of the following story.

A deep hole is dug in the ground. A 30 year old lady, tied up from feet to shoulders, as a stick, is lowered alive into this hole, in a standing position. Only her neck and head are visible. Can you imagine a human head sticking above ground?

When the order is given, a man throws a fist-sized stone at her protruding head. The stone hits her head with a thud. She screems in pain as the blood oozes down her face. Another man picks up a stone and scraps the side of her head drawing a lateral line of blood. She cries and screems in excruciating pain. Since it is a free for all, a teenage spectator from this open playing field, tries his luck, but misses her head completely. Another aims at her and flings it with force. The stone hits its intended target, her forehead.

She screems and cries loudly for mercy. There is now a gash on her forehead. Blood spurting out, down her eyes, nose, cheeks, mouth and down to the ground. She cries out for mercy but to not avail. The minutes become an hour, between the many misses, scraps, nicks, chips and strikes. Another spectator flings forcefully at her.

The stone hits the bridge of her nose with another thud. She screems again and again. This time the blood comes down from inside and outside her nose. Probably, her nasal bridge-bone is broken, causing the bleeding from inside her nostrils as well. Though her wounds are grave, as you can imagine, her screems by now are not as vociferous as earlier, and her tears help to wash some of the blood on her cheeks. Her vision has completely gone with the blood coating.The next stone hits her again. A piece of flesh pops out. No, its not, oh god, it really can't be her eye-ball. It is so bloody that you cann't really make out. By this time, blood has covered her entire face and the ground in front of her.She still makes groaning sounds. More time pass. Stoning her, continues. Her sounds are less and less audible. Her face has become unrecognisable. Flesh, like mashed meat is her face, but only more bloody, as she now literally has no human face. Small strips of flesh, like locks of hair are hanging from her. Her head is now droopping forward. At this stage a hit on her make splashes of blood. She has stopped making a sound for the last two stone pelting. Two hours have passed. The Islamic authorities check her neck for pulse. It is still beating but barely, due to the loss of blood. A flesh piece drops off her head, as the stoning process continues.

Finally,death comes to this lady. She is then left there for a few more hours for the spectators to see, because this is a public lesson for all muslim females, who commit adultery.Then her father and relatives are allowed to dig her body, and bring it above ground. Pieces of her flesh, lying on the ground, is collected and because she has no face, it is put back on the front of her head, and bundled up. Now readers, imagine that is your mother, or your daughter, or sister, or even you, yourself.

DNA is not accepted in Islam, but at least 4 witnesses of reputable character, should give testimony of the actual penetration of the sexual intercourse to convict him. You might ask, who has sexual intercourse in front of 4 witnesses? I can also ask you "how can you consider 4 men watching others' sexual intercourse, as reputable characters?".But, there is no question or denying that this is not a traditonal, customary, cultural or a kangaroo court, but a legal Islamic court, with legal Islamic judges and legal expert Islamic officials, in the muslim state of Bakori ( Nigeria), of the legal Government, democratically elected by the Muslim citizens of this state. These are the undeniable authentic facts, which no amount of words or actions can ever repudiate.

Hear the deafening silence of the 1 billion muslims worldwide, who are in a vigorous fit of inactivity, calmly pretending not to know. But, the balance 5/6th of the world, (1.5 billion Christians, 1.1 billion Taoists, 1 billion Hindus, 700 million Bhuddists and others) can do something to stop this barbarism of the middle-east.

Jesus on the greatest Commandment and Judgement Day:

'Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?"

Jesus replied: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the first and the greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbour as yourself.'All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

(Matthew 22:34-40, Mark 12:28-31)

"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothers and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger adn you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick, and in prison and you did not look after me.

They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?'

He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.

Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

(Matthew 25:31-46)

soja- you posted-
" 2:87 The Quran states, "To Moses We gave the Scriptures and after him We sent other apostles. We gave Jesus son of Mary veritable signs and strengthened him with the Holy Spirit."
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i can understand how there migh be confusion on this from a christian perspective
possibly the cloeset one could come would be the 'spirit of holiness' as regards gabriel-

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it says..."SUPPORTED Him with Ruh-ul-Quddus(Gabriel-Jibreel)
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i just wanted to clarify the usage of that particular phrase- since it is fraught with heavy meaning for christians that are into necessarily the sense communicated in islam-

it would be easily confused, as being the same holy spirit (parokletos formerly expounded upon)

this s an exellent article i found on the subject
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The word spirit is connected with breath and, therefore, with air. The breath is what keeps us alive and yet air was a mystery in that it was invisible. Spirit, therefore, stands for something very subtle. It refers to inner experiences - consciousness, conscience and will. It is responsible for revelation, inspiration, intuition and insight as opposed to knowledge which comes through the outer senses. The Spirit is by the Command of Allah:-

"They ask thee concerning the Spirit. Say: The Spirit is by command of my Lord, and of knowledge ye have been vouchsafed but little." 17:85

"It is naught save mercy from thy Lord." 17:87

We may suppose that it refers to something very fundamental which cannot be explained in terms of anything else. It is by or comes by the command of Allah. It may refer to a fundamental force in the Universe which carries information or Truth, for Allah has created everything with his Word and with Truth. It is likely that the stage by stage condensation of the Spirit is responsible for all levels of the heavens and earths.

"Allah it is who created seven heavens and of the earth the like thereof. The Commandment cometh down among them slowly, that ye may know that Allah is able to do all things, and that Allah surroundeth all things in knowledge." 65:12

"But His command when he intendeth a thing, is only that he says unto it: Be! And it is " 36:82

"He created the heavens and the earth with truth, and He shaped you and made good your shapes and unto Him is the journeying." 64:3 and 6:73

"His Word is Truth, and His will be the Sovereignty on the day when the trumpet is blown." 6:74

The Spirit ascends into Heaven and descends into the earth.

"From Allah, Lord of the Ascending Stairways whereby the angels and the spirit ascend unto Him in a Day whereof the span is fifty thousand years." 70:3-4

"The Night of Power is better than a thousand months. The angels and the Spirit descend therein by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees. Peace until the rising of the Dawn." 97:3-5

These two verses speak about two different cycles of events - there appears to be a spiritual circulation.

"Lord of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them, the Beneficent; with Whom none can argue. On the Day when the angels and the Spirit stand arrayed, they speak not, saving him whom the Beneficent allows and who speaks right. That is the True Day. So whoso will should seek recourse unto his Lord." 78:38

This refers to the Final Day of Judgement. The Universe itself is a cycle and will be wound up (28:88). Things begin with the Spirit and end with it. The Divine Spirit has been breathed into man and this is what gives him consciousness:-

"So when I have made him (man) and have breathed into him of My Spirit, do ye (angels) fall down, prostrating yourselves unto him." 15:29 also 38:72

"He directed the ordinance from the heavens unto the earth; then it ascends unto Him in a Day, whereof the measure is a thousand years of that ye reckon. Such is the knower of the invisible and the visible, the Mighty, the Merciful, who made all things good which He created, and He began the creation of man from clay; then He made his seed from a draught of despised fluid; then He fashioned him and breathed into him of His spirit; and appointed for you hearing, and sight and hearts. Small thanks give ye! And they say: When we are lost in the earth, how can we then be re-created? Nay but they are disbelievers in the meeting with their Lord." 32:7-10

Note: -

(1) the change of person from the third to the second - he has become aware of himself. He has received some of the qualities of the creator.

(2) Three faculties are mentioned - hearing, seeing and feeling. These should be understood as referring not just to outer senses, but to inner ones, in particular to conscience, consciousness and will.

(3) that "small thanks" refers to ungratefulness - people do not act according to the spirit in them. The spirit has become dormant.

(4) The possibility of resurrection is connected with the spirit.

However, we have to distinguish Nafs (soul) from Ruh (spirit). Whereas the Spirit is a Universal principle, each person has his own soul and it can degenerate or it can be made to grow.

"Be careful of your duty to your Lord Who created you from a single soul and from it created its mate and from them twain has spread abroad a multitude of men and women." 4:1 and 7:189

"And the soul and Him who perfected it and inspired it with (conscience of) what is wrong for it and what is right for it. He indeed is successful who causes it to grow, and he indeed is a failure who stunts it." 91:7-10

"Surely We created man in the best stature, then We reduced him to the lowest of the low, save those who believe and do good works and theirs is a reward unfailing. So who henceforth will give the lie to thee about the judgement? Is not Allah the most conclusive of all judges?" 95:4-8

"Whosoever does right, it is only for the good of his own soul that he does right, and whosoever errs, errs only to its hurt. No laden soul can bear another's load. We never punish until We have sent a messenger." 17:15

Also 2:223,231, 3:25,30, 5:105, 6:12,20,70,164, 7:53, 9:42, 10:108, 11:21, 14:51, 20:15 and many more.

The soul may be regarded as a local organisation of the spirit and contains the information relating to the individual (his inherited and acquired characteristics and those created by his own efforts at integration). That consciousness is connected with the soul can be seen from the fact that sleep and death are alike:-

"Allah receives souls at the time of their death, and the soul which dies not in its sleep. He keeps that soul for which he has ordained death and dismisses the rest till an appointed term. Lo! Herein verily are signs for people who take thought." 39:42

The existence of the Spirit within man makes him a Vicegerent, a person who ought to be serving Allah, and exercising the faculties he has received on behalf of Allah. He was made as an instrument through which Allah can act more directly.

"When thy Lord said unto the angels: Lo! I am about to place a Vicegerent in the earth, they said: Wilt Thou place therein one who will do harm therein and will shed blood, while we, we hymn Thy praise and sanctify Thee? He said: Surely I know that which ye know not. And He taught Adam all the Names, then showed them to the angels, saying: Inform me of the Names of these if ye are truthful. They said: Be glorified! We have no knowledge saving that which Thou hast taught us. Lo! Thou, only Thou, art the Knower, Wise." 2:30-32.

Man, having been given some of the divine powers could act partly independently with his own initiative, creativity and sense of responsibility, though still dependent for these powers on Allah. This independence is not possible for the angels. In particular man was given the capacity to form concepts (the Names may also refer to the Attributes of Allah). It is this which gave him the power to do the evil and chaos which the angels feared, but Allah knew better. He could through experiences and trials lead them towards voluntary surrender.

The spirit exists in man as a Trust:-

"Lo! We offered the Trust unto the heavens and the earth and the hills, but they shrank from bearing it and were afraid of it. And man assumed it. Lo! He has proved a tyrant and a fool." 33:72

Here again we see that man is accused of not allowing it operate on behalf of God.

"Nay verily man is rebellious that he thinks himself independent. lo! Unto thy Lord is the return." 96:6-8

This dormant spirit in man can be reactivated by the Messengers. These are persons who have already been chosen by Allah to be guided by the Spirit.

"He sends down the angels with the Spirit of His Command unto whom He will of His bondmen saying: Warn mankind that there is no god save Me, so keep your duty unto Me. He hath created the heavens and the earth with truth. High be He exalted above all that they associate with Him." 16:2-3

"The Exalter of ranks, the lord of the Throne, He casts the Spirit of His command upon whom He will of His slaves, that He may warn of the Day of Meeting." 40:15

"O you who believe! Obey Allah and the Messenger when He calls you to that which quickens you (brings you alive), and know that Allah comes in between the man and his own heart, and that He it is unto Whom ye will be gathered." 8:24

"Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who recites unto you Our revelations and causes you to grow, and teaches you the Scripture and Wisdom, and teaches you that which ye knew not." 2:151

Muhammad was such a messenger:-

"Say (O Muhammad): The Holy Spirit hath revealed it (the Quran) from thy Lord with Truth, that it may confirm the faith of those who believe and as a guidance and Good Tidings (gospels) for those who have Surrendered (to Allah)." 16:102

"And thus have We inspired in thee (Muhammad) a Spirit of Our Command. Thou knowest not what the Scripture was nor what the Faith. But We have made it a light whereby We guide whom We will of Our bondmen. And lo! Thou verily dost guide unto a right path., the path of Allah, unto whom belongs whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is in the earth. Do not all things reach Allah at last?" 42:52-53

"And lo! It (the Quran) is a revelation of the Lord of the Worlds which the True Spirit hath brought down upon thy heart, that thou mayest be one of the warners in plain Arabic speech." 26:192-195

Note that there is a connection between the notion of Spirit and Light. The spiritual regeneration or resurrection is brought about thus:-

"Is he who was dead and We have raised him unto life, and set for him a light wherein he walks among men, as him whose similitude is in utter darkness whence he cannot emerge? Thus is their conduct made fair seeming for the disbelievers." 6:123

Other Prophets were also inspired:-

"Lo! We inspire thee as We inspired Noah and the Prophets after him, as We inspired Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the tribes, and Jesus and Job and Jonah and Aaron and Solomon, and as We imparted unto David the Psalms. And messengers We have mentioned unto thee before and messengers We have not mentioned unto thee; and Allah spake directly unto Moses." 5:163-164 and many other verses.

Believers are also strengthened with the Spirit:-

"Thou wilt not find folk who believe in Allah and the Last Day loving those who oppose Allah and His messenger, even though they be their fathers or their sons or their brethren or their clan. As for such, He hath written faith upon their hearts and had strengthened them with the Sprit from Him, and He will bring them into Gardens underneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide. Allah is well pleased with them and they are well pleased with Him. They are Allah's Party. Lo! Is it not Allah's Party who are the successful?" 58:22 Compare this with 89:27-30

Jesus was such a Messenger:-

"And verily We gave unto Moses the scripture and we caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs, and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it ever so, that when there comes unto you a messenger from Allah with that which you yourselves desire not, you grow arrogant, and some disbelieve and some you slay." 2:87

"And those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted above others in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs and We supported him with the Holy Spirit. And if Allah had so willed it, those who followed after them would not have fought one with another after the clear proof had come unto them. But they differed, some of them believing and so disbelieving. And if Allah had so willed they would not have fought one with another, but Allah does what He will." 2:253

"When Allah said: O Jesus son of Mary! Remember My favour unto thee and unto thy mother; how I strengthened thee with the Holy Spirit, so that thou spakest unto mankind in the cradle as in maturity; and how I taught thee the Scripture and Wisdom and the Torah and the Gospel and when I inspired the disciples saying: Believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: We believe. Bear witness that we have surrendered unto Thee (i.e become muslim)" 5:110-111

"And when Jesus, son of Mary, said; O children of Israel! Lo! I am the messenger of Allah unto you, confirming that which was revealed before me in the Torah, and bringing good tidings of a messenger who comes after me, whose name is the Praised One. yet when he hath come unto them with clear proofs, they say; This is mere magic." 61:6 See also 3:50

"But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah and bear thou witness that we have surrendered unto Him (i.e become muslim)." 3:52

Since, the Spirit is in all human beings, the Quran does not regard Jesus as being more than human.

"The Messiah, son of Mary, was no other than a messenger, messengers the like of whom had passed away before him. And his mother was a saintly woman. And they both used to eat food. See how We make the revelations clear for them and see how they turn away!" 5:75

"O people of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him." 4:171

"Lo! The likeness of Jesus with Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He created him of dust, then He said unto him: Be! And he is." 3:59

This is, of course, how Allah crated all things.

"When the angel said: O Mary! Lo! Allah gives thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah)." 3:45

"Then We sent unto her (Mary) Our Spirit and it assumed for her the likeness of a perfect man. She said: Lo! I seek refuge in the Beneficent One from thee, if thou art God-fearing. He said: I am only a Messenger of thy Lord, that I may bestow on thee a faultless son. She said: How can I have a son when no mortal has touched me, neither have I been unchaste? He said: So it will be. Thy Lord saith: It is easy for Me. And it will be that We may make of him a revela