"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit. In July 2005, she became the first woman in centuries to officiate Friday prayers in a mosque when the United Muslim Association of Toronto and the Muslim Canadian Congress invited her to serve as guest imam. (This event followed a number of services, sermons and prayer sessions led by women held in private venues because no mosque agreed to host them.) In February 2006, when the former Grand Mufti of Marseilles visited Toronto, he requested that Taylor lead him in congregational prayer as an unequivocal demonstration of his support for female imams. Taylor has also been active in interfaith dialogue for 20 years, both in local initiatives and speaking at numerous conferences, universities, and churches. She received her MTS from Harvard Divinity School, and writes regularly on spiritual matters and the Islamic faith. She has essays in Nurturing Child and Adolescent Spirituality: Perspectives from the World's Religious Traditions (2006) and the forthcoming The Veil: Women Writers on Its History, Lore, and Politics (2007). She has written hundreds of articles and opinion pieces for newspapers, magazines, and journals, and is an award winning poet.
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Pamela K. Taylor
co-founder, Muslims for Progressive Values
"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit.
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You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?
Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.
This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:
This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.
Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.
After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)
On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)
This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)
So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.
Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.
The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!
Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.
Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.
He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.
Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.
You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?
Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.
This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:
This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.
Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.
After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)
On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)
This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)
So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.
Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.
The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!
Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.
Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.
He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.
Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.
You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?
Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.
This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:
This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.
Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.
After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)
On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)
This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)
So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.
Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.
The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!
Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.
Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.
He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.
Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.
This is from the link you posted:
2. Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahy (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet. "He said, 'I saw you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face. You are just like that..." Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p. 285.
An angel who shows a 6 year old child to 54 year married pervert is no angel. Angels must protect the innocence of children and not act like PIMPS.
Would you marry your daughter to anyone who comes up with this story ? my guess is never , so why do you makes excuses for Mohammad ?
Why do you blindly follow this man ?
You are wasting your life finding excuses for this pervert. Hope this site helps:
www.faithfreedom.org
If I'm not replying, it doesn't mean I don't have answeres. But it is of no sensible purpose with out RATIONAL REASONING and CUMMUNICATION, which needs ANSWERING and then counter questioning.
Which I exercised until now, but I guess you and like you are stuck in your own delusional brain rubbish, brainwashed by your propoganda machine of lairs and deceivers, SHORT OF ANSWERS!!
Mohammad was a wicked man who:
Killed his critics like poetess Asma bin marwan,
Beheaded men and married their wives i.e. Juwariyah and Safiyah,
Stoned women to death for commiting adultery,
Kept concubines like the coptic Maria,
Married a 6 year old Aisha and had sex with when she was 9,
Shamelessly compelled his adopted son to divorce his wife Zainab and married her himself.
Threated to burn people's houses for not attending prayers.
He is no prophet infact he's less an a MAN.
I do not see any virtues coming from him just evil, lust, pride, greed and anger.
Leave this evil CULT join the rest of HUMANITY where there is no hatred for other people's belief whether they are hindus, sikhs, jews, buddhist or christians.
Allah bless you with truth and forgive you! You spear my heart and every Muslims heart every time you use the abnoxious language for our beloved Prophet(PBUH). All I can say if you are sincerely seeking truth, it is in open out there and not hidden at all, unlike christian concepts or any other believe.
I'm not a scholar but I sincerely already put enough evidence of TRUTH which speaks for it self.
Allah says: Oh Mohammad! your duty is only to pass on the message. Its up to Me to put it in somebodies heart!
The whole Quran is the proof of Prophets Mohammads(PBUH) truthfulness.
AND HIS WHOLE LIFE IS FULL OF VIRTOUS AND FORGIVENESS.
Go and see your self, ask any Muslim scholar. Visit PEACE TV links!
He had no reason to lie, other wise he could have made the redicule of the Christian believes for example hearing voices and getting pregnant, but he didn't. He only spoke the TRUTH!
Read Quran and have the answer of every bothering question from Muslim scholars. By the time you will finish Quran, you will not be left with ANY (1000) bothering question INSHALLAH!
Your entire faith in Allah and the quran depends on your trust in Mohammad, what makes you so sure that the quran is God's word ? How do you know Mohammad did'nt lie ?
Afterall Mohammad was a wicked war mongering arabian chief who commited the crimes of looting, killing, paedophlila, stoning etc.
Please tell us why do you trust this man ? Why would any person who is in contact with God lead an immoral life like Mohammad ?
And please list 3 truly honorable deeds of Mohammed.
Christians always have there own decieving way with there language.
-I and Father are the one.
means we are on the same side, the rightous side)
-If you have seen me you have seen the father, I'm the way and the truth.
(means like on their times all the previous Prophets are the way and the truth and who have seen them seen the Father OR the way of the Father OR the way choosen by the Father).
And please don't avoid many QUESTIONS raised in by my previous 2 mails.
LIKE YOUR CHURCH AND PREISTS ALWAYS DO!!! NEVER CAME TO OPEN PUBLIC DEBAT WITH MUSLIMS??????
Questions like few mentioned below:
1- To whome Jesus(A.S) use to prostrate? Does God prostrate in front of any body???
2- To whome he refered greater them him?
3- To which people house Jesus(A.S) prefer to come again, (i)to the house of people how claim they love him (christians) BUT BREAK EACH AND EVERY LAW HE CAME TO FULFIL or (ii) to the house of people who follow each and every law of Jesus(A.S) as well which he came to fulfil (We muslims)???
AND ALL THE REST OF THE QUESTIONS IN MY PREVIOUS MAILS? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF YOU DARE TO ANSWER?
One needs to see through the FABRICATED LIES which are constantly REVISED AND REMOVED till today and hardly left with any authenticity.
I have met God and I have met all Three Persons of the Trinity. God revealed Himself to me in His way.
One of the things that God says in the bible is, "Remember I have chosen you, you haven't chosen Me". I have said "Yes" tho and that is not my opinion but a fact.
When the bible says, "Let Us make man in Our Image", well that is alluding to something, it doesn't say, Let Me, but, Let Us.
When Jesus was walking this earth one of the things that He said was, "I and the Father are One".
Another thing that He said to Phillip was, "How long have you been with Me if you have seen Me you have seen the Father", this was in response to Phillip asking to see the Father. Jesus was not being boastful or nothing of the kind, He was just being Truthful.
Jesus was either telling the truth or He wasn't.
If He was telling the truth the the being that came to Muhammed was lying. If He was lying than the being that came to Muhammed picked a liar to be his second-rate prophet behind Muhammed.
In Judaism and Christianity there are only true and false prophets, there are no second-rate prophets.
I have also met satan and he can try to come across as mister nice guy but he isn't.
satan is a liar and a thief and like Jesus said, "It is in his [satan's] very nature".
satan is also decribed as an accuser and a deceiver.
God is a Being of Pure Love and even tho the bible has been twisted and distorted immensely, the bible is about God's Plan for Mankind and for All of Humanity to eventually be with Him in His Kingdom.
By the way, God is not a male or a female or an it, even tho God-Incarnate was a Man.
Another thing the reason that the Jews are the Chosen People is that God Chose Them. Being the Chosen People does not mean that they are better or anything like that, it just means that they are the Chosen People.
1- I havent qouted the exact words but more or less the same expresion.
2- One better speak upon evidence and not upon personal opinion. Read both the books and evaluate your self which is human/satan handy work keep on changing taking out lies/ incorrect maths/information and which is divine unchanged/correct. And ask your self does God lies and decieve or satan????
3- I would also expect your answer to my questions in this post and previous???
You wrote, " Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them."
What Jesus said was, "I have not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it".
God is Love, a Being of Pure Love, He is not the power hungry, hate filled, egomaniac that some people seem to think that He is.
Since God is Love, following Love, not hatred and/or indifference, is how to fulfill the Law.
There is quite a difference between what you said He said and what the bible said He said.
When and if you read what I write, it is up to you but you should read what I write not what you read into it, I try to be very straightforward in what I say.
You refer to "you Christians", I have never referred to "you Muslims".
God loves us, He doesn't want us to be afraid of Him.
Submitting is out of fear, obeying should be out of love.
We are all God's children, Jesus is God-Incarnate, God wins, satan loses, a tie is completely and utterly unacceptable.
God's Plan is for All of His children to be in The Kingdom.
moody wrote:
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
For a moment let us "assume" the quran is right about all the listed science stuff, now the question remains why do you think it is from god and not Satan, Why can't this stuff be dictated by Satan ? How are you so sure satan has no knowledge of these things ?
What in your opinion is the main difference between God and satan ?
You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!
MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)
- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.
Verses about:
1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.
AND MANY MORE............
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
I don't mind your language because by now I came to conclusion that it is common norm in west, false accusations and slinging dirt on others IGNORING CONCRETE PROOFS.
And now in reply to your post:
MUSLIMS OBEY JESUS (A.S.) AND HIS GOD OF ALL CREATURES MORE THEN CHRISTIANS:
BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY, AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.
Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self !
1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."
2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION of Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????
3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:
(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).
4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?
5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig is forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.
6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).
7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!
8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.
When after birth, Mary came:
According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when “IF” Mary had told that to the Jews, they would have believed her???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them that I’m the messenger from God, therefore be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????
9-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God Who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.
10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.
11- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.
So I am asking you a question:
Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???
Thomas Baum wrote:
You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.
I agree with what you say about islam, infact if you read the hadith's Mo displayed signs of demonic possession during those revelations (very similar to epilepsy) fainting, hallucinations, foaming in the mouth etc.
But islam is a CULT, here's a few reasons why:
1. Death for apostates.
2. Women not allowed to marry outside CULT.
3. Systematic brainwashing since childhood.
4. Death/Punishment for critics.
5. Strict prayer times for every muslim.
6. Charity only to be given to members/organisations within this CULT.
7. A Master Slave relationship with ALLAH.
8. Mohammad said SUBMIT and not DECIDE with free will.
You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.
It was not Gabriel but satan that came to Mohammed, satan is not only a liar but a deceiver."
If you read this back to yourself, do you understand what I and other mean by "Your Satan?"
Seems to me that even if you don't much care for Islam, you don't need any 'divils' involved for things to go bad... much to the likely chagrin of Concerned Christian...
Cause *he* ...like *you* and *so many* would rather think *evil* of half the world than accept uncertainty.
It's why you don't get science. Why you don't get me, and *forget* about the spirit world.
Or for some, even the *existence* of faith or religion, cause you *can't accept it except in terms of something you can call "controlled" before you even look at it.
One thing I'll tell you is people can screw up a book without any nasties even getting involved.
This is what all you book people, Christian, Muslim, or alleged atheist, must know.
If you trust Who 'Made' Us, *you must chill.*
It's very easy to say 'If it doesn't agree with my book, it must be Satan!' Then argue a lot.
It's only hard at first to *just breathe.* It's not exactly an ideal scenario right now, but *breathe.*
It's not gonna get any better with recriminations of 'Satan' and 'Voodo' and all the usual indirect yaddayadda that somehow never actually works.
One thing I can tell you, is, if you believe in Archangels, it's perfectly possible for someone to meet an Archangel and produce something totally-messed-up around the occasion.
I would say to you, that if you believe anything that big exists in the first place, maybe you could live with people being smaller.
At the very least, it couldn't hurt to be good at being one.
I've seen real horrors in my life. I've even seen and dealt with a lot of stuff I'd call 'Very Bad Spirits.'
But most of it, people really can do on their own. Or at least, the spirits don't need to be That Bad for things to get messed-up.
Frankly, for things to get bad, Thomas, it doesn't *take* a Satan like you believe in. Just people. Afraid and seeking to control, so they do a little more, a little more, and a little more.... and next thing you know, great shame and dishonor is being defended as 'virtue.'
In the name of defending it, they seem to make the 'divil' bigger. And bigger, and bigger, till they hurt the innocent and profess powerlessness against your 'Satan.'
Same Pretty Wingie Talkie Thingies that vex Concerned. Cause if people hurt this much and are yet expected to be so perfect, there *must* be 'divils and Satans and false prophets,' mustn't there?
What if.... It's not that hard?
And that is something some find hardest of all to accept.
As for 'demons,' some believe they are a real and specific kind of creature that must actualy 'exist' in order for some other things to be true or acceptably-true.
What I call a 'demon' is a creature that takes a little bit of fear, and then spins it into a *big* fear, and somehow expects to subsist on the results.
"Padraig, Give Goll Mac Morna an iron tug for his flail."
No one with any common sense believes in "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thinges". Ditto for their ugly counterparts aka " the demons of the demented".
The referenced site was to show that there have/are a large number of demon names given to a large number of demons by a large number of Pagans over the life span of hominids as a counter to one Pagan who noted that Pagans do not believe in demons.
You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.
It was not Gabriel but satan that came to Mohammed, satan is not only a liar but a deceiver.
Jesus is really Who He said that He is and that is God-Incarnate. God is a Trinity and He is Pure Love.
Isn't it just like satan to claim God as his prophet and then to say that God-Incarnate is just a second-rate prophet at that.
Jesus flat out said that He is God in the bible in more places than one, so He was either speaking the Truth or He was lying.
If He was speaking the Truth then the being that came to Mohammed was lying.
If He was lying then the being that came to Mohammed chose a liar to be his second-rate prophet.
Something to think about, don't you think?
I have met God, it doesn't matter if anyone one believes me or not but I would like to say something: There is going to be a lot of people hiding behind their religion and their "holy books".
Like I have said before, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, knowing God's Name doesn't get you off the hook, so to speak, on the contrary maybe it means you should follow Him or at least try to.
There is a lot of hatred being spewed out in God's Name, and I do mean the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God, and that couldn't be any further from the truth since God is a Being of Pure Love.
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented. "
Then why were you claiming a few posts up that Pagans - who do not believe in demons or the Devil, were doing so? And your link went to a very lurid but un-factual website listing a bunch of made-up Bible characters and former Pagan Gods who were "demonized" to keep their worshippers from going back to them. So, what is it, CCNL? Do you believe in demons but not angels?
Add this to your standard Program for "Deflawing" Islam as posted previously but apparently you lost your copy:
Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"1. Belief in Allah"
"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your orthodox Islamic ways!!!!
John -- I may be incorrect about pregnancy, zina, and Saudi Arabia. I thought I had read of a case of a 14 year old girl raped by an uncle and convicted of zina on the grounds of the resulting pregnancy,while the uncle went free because there was no proof of her accusations, but I could be mistaken about this.
Paganplace -- ignoring the later rants... -- Yes we have a long way to go in dealing with intolerance, racism, hatred, and extremism. There are some who will struggle against all forms of bigotry with rational arguments and others who will turn to scripture. I believe we cannot afford to ignore either tool in the campaign for a more humane world. There are some who will be swayed by scripture and intepretation; there are others who will be swayed by rational argument. Limiting ourselves to one tactic or the other loses part of our potential audience.
As for legislation -- I am totally opposed to ennacting laws which claim to be Divine in origin. As one of the commentators pointed out, scripture may be of divine origin, but it's interpretation is purely human. Shariah is a human contsruct in which scholars tried to do their best to understand what the Divine will might be. Those scholars were well-intentioned, but ultimately human and fallible. They could, and did, make mistakes, some of them grievous. Not only that, their rulings must be seen as particular to the situation they were referring to -- a particular social millieu, a particular culture with its own assumptions about human nature, even a particular set of disputants or questioners whose personal situation is unique to themselves. Their rulings in all likelihood make no sense for a different culture, a different millieu, and a people who have vastly different understanding of what it is to be a human being. Regardless of these considerations, tho, I would oppose any new understanding of shariah law if it is posited as divine being ennacted as the law of country.
The sticky part comes in that every law, even secular ones, has morality behind it. We have laws about theft, fraud, even public indecency. The morality of the people who ennacted those laws may come from scripture or reason or some innate sense of right or wrong. We cannot dictate where a person derives there morality from, even a legislator. The key is that the laws must be mutable (since it is a human construct). Our understanding of what is moral changes, so too laws must change with those understandings.
And yes, I agree, there is a lot of work cut out for those of us trying to limit the effects of fanaticism, hysteria, and zealotry.
Moody wrote:
I'm mentioning THE TRUTH and all you are talking about the discoveries about the truth. The point is not by whom BUT discovered. I DON'T BLAME YOU IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE!
What proof do you have it is the truth, you can only convince yourself it is the truth after those discoveries have been made by the non muslims. Again why do you need non muslim discoveries to aunthicate your quran ?
The truth is that there is hardly any science in the quran and whatever's in it was already discovered by indians, greeks etc CENTURIES before. Nor is there any religious content in this book, there is no message for mankind, just verses inciting violence, hatred, cruelty against non muslims.
Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.
I'm mentioning THE TRUTH and all you are talking about the discoveries about the truth. The point is not by whom BUT discovered. I DON'T BLAME YOU IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE!
CCNL:
You and like your have no shame comparing couple of thousand with millions of FREEDOM SPONSERED killings. Where many of those unjust actions have NO PROOF to link with the TERROR FIGHTERS.
e.g., 9/11
Click on google just 9/11 and you will find all kind of expert, professional and scientific PROOFS showing that those planes couldn't at all possibly collaspe the towers.
Let me give you line of direction towards the investigation to find the truth.
1- Why all the jews of towers were on holiday on 9/11?
2- See the demolition and destruction of all kind of building, bombed, burned for MANY DAYS and not couple of floors for FEW HOURS on google.
3- See the pattern of buildings falling when destroyed and compare with technique of IMPLOSION is applyed? see on google!
4- On google you will also find the towers timely and systematic blasts on each floor flim captured.
5- On google see Pentagon crach recording. Where are the impact of wings in the hole of the wall? Was it a plane crash?? Where is the rubble? See on google.
6-How could the passport of terrorist found, safe and perfect OUT OF PLANE??
BUSH THINKS THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID....right CCNL!
The Body Count and why "Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!
1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens,
2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 77,573 – 84,502 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]
4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.
5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.
6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.
7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.
paganplace- you confused me with jihadist- ididnt mention sin, or define it, but jihadist did an excellent job of it.
and again- you missed yet another point-
christans ARE as we speak, successfully giving (socialist hence communist hence idolatrous athiest worship?) health care
for all your talk about freedom, you sure were quick to tell soja to shut up when she posted ON TOPIC-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Soja. Whatever you're on about. It's not helping.
This is about someone we know who spams a lot and has a heritage and a soul. What he says is not actually about you. Shh."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and no- the topic ISNT about someone who spams alot- nor is it about YOU and your one-pointed focus that christians (and monotheists)are to blame for every bad act on the planet.
actually, getting back off the rants-
sojas post did help me-
in a deeper sense we are responsible before the god for our own actions-
it's keeping society functioning that we are discussing here-
a society we all live in- certainly america has its share of rapists and victims, and sexual predators (which is a category a politician who abuses his position to perpertrate his own sexual needs upon can be fit into)
and this affected all of us on a macrocosmic scale in america- didnt it?
clintons indiscretion with ms. lewinsky shool the foundations of our leadership so much so that we started impeachment proceedings against a sitting president.
as we enter the next presidential election cycle- this issue is peculiarly releveant.
hillary was the first lady who appropriated the entire east wing as the dominion of the first lady- a suite that her husband, the potential future 'first laddie' (to quote bill) may be sitting in.
are bills fumbling lies enough to keep americans from voting for his wife in 2008?
i really dont think so myself- but it did and does diminish his veracity.
personally,i am a great deal more distressed by the lies that have resulted in the deahts of our troops and 1 million iraqis (not to mention the 4.2 million and climbing iraqi refugees)
so back on topic- i think it is certainly forgivable-
and it seems many americans do also.
You know as much about Paganism and Voudou as you do about Islam. Whis is to say, not much. Do you even pay attention to what others say, or do you just try to make fun of what they believe in?
You were implying by using the terms "Voodoo Fumes" that Paganplace (and by association, all Pagans) smoke marijuana. That is hardly the case. While a few Pagans will do it in the privacy of their own homes, we obey all laws while in public places. Oh, and we DO NOT believe in demons. But in your case, we'll make an exception.
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The koran's 6000 verses were plagiarized from the works of the ancients (Hittites, Babylonians, Persians, Canaanites, Romans, Greeks, Jews, Egyptians et al) so please in the future give proper references to the source material.
Moody wrote:
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK)
If the quran contains so much scientific knowledge then why do muslims wait till the kaffirs make the actual discovery then claim it was in the quran all the time ?
Why do we not have a Skeikh Hamza using the quran to discover a sub atomic particle and name it after his beloved prophet "MOHAMMA-TRON" ? Or a Sheikh Bakhri using the quran to to contribute to the Human Genome project ?
Has the science in the quran helped the muslim world with any scientific breakthrough's or Achievements ?
Inspite of a 1000 or so verses containing scientific facts why is it there are only about 5 Muslim NOBEL prize winners out of a population of over a billion compared to 160+ nobel prize winning JEWS out of a population of around 20 million.
**Smoking some voodoo fumes this evening??**
OK, I'll bite. What are "voodoo fumes?"
**Or is it a visit from a demon from the underworld??**
We don't believe in demons, remember?
**"Until voodoo is removed from pagan rituals, no one is safe especially Paganplace".**
Vodoun is no more a part of my rituals than is transubstantiation of wine and bread.
And her point that pols use the sex lives of other pols to distract voters from other isses is a valid one.
You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RAIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!
MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK)
- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.
Verses about:
1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.
AND MANY MORE............
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
Whilst the Quran lays down many such rules for creation of a civil society, especially considering the pagan Arab society of the time, yet it also contains words translated as such: that..
'if you are faced with exercising justice or mercy, then choose mercy for God is merciful.'
Clearly this outcome is preferred by all of us, given a second chance. With mercy, we can live another day and be light, but punishment once meted, I find it hard to live with. Besides showing mercy when we have the power to do so is the highest form of nobility. We seldom see such from our leaders. To the contrary some also go beyond punishment to the extreme revenge. Yet the Quran repeatedly states that we should forgive when we have the 'power' to do so. "Al'afoa indal maqdara."
Hopefully Ms Taylor, the Muslims will hold their Imams to the same high moral standards that you expect the Christians to hold their priests and pastors to and the public to their public servants. A sexually promiscuous Imam who is a hypocrite, is just as bad a role model as a sexually promiscuous Catholic priest.
All Comments (99)
Salam Muad,
Thank you so much for your question.
You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?
Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.
This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:
This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.
Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.
After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)
On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)
This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)
So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.
Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.
The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!
Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.
Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.
He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.
Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.
December 11, 2007 2:33 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 11, 2007 02:33
Salam Muad,
Thank you so much for your question.
You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?
Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.
This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:
This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.
Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.
After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)
On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)
This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)
So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.
Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.
The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!
Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.
Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.
He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.
Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.
December 11, 2007 2:31 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 11, 2007 02:31
Salam Muad,
Thank you so much for your question.
You directed your question to your "brother in Islam". Do you mind if a "Sister in Islam" answers instead?
Well, your question is very important as it touches a very sensitive issue that has always been the favorite misconception, through which Orientalists propagate against Islam. They deal with this issue of the Prophets' nine marriages as though it were his Achilles heel! They contrast him with Jesus. Because Jesus was unmarried, he was considered chaste and wise (as we Muslims also believe him to be). But they portray Muhammad (may peace be upon him) as a lustful womanizer who has nothing to do except to satisfy his fleshy desires. This is the repelling image that enemies of Islam often stress.
This is why your secondary school teacher has the right to get confused. The following facts, concerning his marriages could help her have a better understanding of the personality of that great man:
This comparison between Jesus and Muhammad (may peace be upon him) is unfair because being married is not a discredit to a prophet otherwise we are going to deny the prophet-hood of all the previous prophets of God. This is since Adam, passing through Abraham (two wives at one time), Noah, Isaac, Solomon, David (99 wives) Moses etc., and they were all wise, chaste, and reliable for delivering the divine message.
Prophet Muhammad (may peace be upon him) married this number at a time, when the norm of the place in which he lived (Arab Peninsula in the 7th century) allowed men to marry a much larger number than that, there was no legislation to prohibit this behavior yet.
After that, the Divine order came to Muslims through the Qur’an, to restrict the number of their wives to a maximum of four. God said to them in the versewhat means:
*{If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, Marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice.}* (Al-An`am 6: 3)
On hearing this order, all who men who had more than four wives divorced them, in full submission to God's orders. The divorced wives - who accepted this divine decree with full satisfaction, implied by their deep faith - soon found other marriages and lead normal lives. Nevertheless, the Prophet (may peace be upon him) - who had nine wives at the time the order was revealed - was exempted from this order in a later verse of Qur’an which gives the meaning of:
*{O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; ...}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 50)
This exemption was because there was a prohibition in the Qur’an for any Muslim to marry the Prophet's wives once he died or divorced them:
*{...Nor is it right for you that ye should annoy God's Apostle, or that ye should marry his widows after him at any time. Truly such a thing is in God's sight an enormity.}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 53)
So, it was rather inhuman for his wives to be doomed to solitude and depravity all their lives. Thus he was exceptionally permitted to keep them.
Looking at the circumstances, in which he married each wife, one finds that all those marriages were the furthest from being motivated simply by lust. The marriage to his first wife, Khadijah, was his only wife until she died after almost 20 years of marriage. This marriage to Khadijah covered the years of his youth. Despite the fact that these years were supposed to be the peak of his sexual demand, he did not think of taking any other wife together with her.
The rest of his wives - whom he married after her death - came at a time when he was nearly 50! Exhausted in spreading the new religion, mostly chased by the infidels and where attempts at taking his life were frequent, I, personally, don't think that this was a romantic atmosphere for anybody to go on amorous adventures!
Most of his wives whom he took after the death of Khadijah were old in age, devoid of beauty and were formerly married - except `A’ishah, who was the only one who was young and a virgin. This is despite the fact that he was always the target of many believing ladies, who came offering themselves to him in marriage, but then he politely apologized to them.
Every one of these marriages was for a reason; either political to make alliance with other tribes, or human to sustain a widow of a martyr or to honor a lady whom no body wanted to marry… etc. It was not reported that he married them out of carnal desires.
He was a model example of justice and kindness to them all regardless of his neutral feelings towards many of them, he would never discriminate among them or reveal the special feelings he had for Aishah rather than the others.
Thank you Maud and please pass my best regards to your respectable teacher.
December 11, 2007 2:30 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 11, 2007 02:30
Moody,
This is from the link you posted:
2. Her Marriage with the prophet was a Wahy (Divine Revelation). She, herself relates from the Prophet. "He said, 'I saw you in dreams three times. The angel brought you to me and you were clad in white silk. He (the angel) said that it was your consort and he (angel) showed me by opening your face. You are just like that..." Sahih Muslim, Vol.2, p. 285.
An angel who shows a 6 year old child to 54 year married pervert is no angel. Angels must protect the innocence of children and not act like PIMPS.
Would you marry your daughter to anyone who comes up with this story ? my guess is never , so why do you makes excuses for Mohammad ?
Why do you blindly follow this man ?
You are wasting your life finding excuses for this pervert. Hope this site helps:
www.faithfreedom.org
December 9, 2007 8:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 9, 2007 08:11
Ross:
For the last time below is the answers to your molested mind questions on the following links:
http://anwary-islam.com/women/prophets-wives.htm
Why did Prophet(PBUH) married Ayesha(R.A)?
http://www.iol.ie/~afifi/BICNews/Sabeel/sabeel6.htm
And keep your judgement to your self and to like minded.
December 9, 2007 6:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 9, 2007 06:50
Ross:
If I'm not replying, it doesn't mean I don't have answeres. But it is of no sensible purpose with out RATIONAL REASONING and CUMMUNICATION, which needs ANSWERING and then counter questioning.
Which I exercised until now, but I guess you and like you are stuck in your own delusional brain rubbish, brainwashed by your propoganda machine of lairs and deceivers, SHORT OF ANSWERS!!
December 8, 2007 9:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 8, 2007 09:37
Moody,
Mohammad was a wicked man who:
Killed his critics like poetess Asma bin marwan,
Beheaded men and married their wives i.e. Juwariyah and Safiyah,
Stoned women to death for commiting adultery,
Kept concubines like the coptic Maria,
Married a 6 year old Aisha and had sex with when she was 9,
Shamelessly compelled his adopted son to divorce his wife Zainab and married her himself.
Threated to burn people's houses for not attending prayers.
He is no prophet infact he's less an a MAN.
I do not see any virtues coming from him just evil, lust, pride, greed and anger.
Leave this evil CULT join the rest of HUMANITY where there is no hatred for other people's belief whether they are hindus, sikhs, jews, buddhist or christians.
DO NOT LOWER YOUR MORAL STANDARDS FOR MOHAMMAD.
December 8, 2007 8:49 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 8, 2007 08:49
Ross,
Allah bless you with truth and forgive you! You spear my heart and every Muslims heart every time you use the abnoxious language for our beloved Prophet(PBUH). All I can say if you are sincerely seeking truth, it is in open out there and not hidden at all, unlike christian concepts or any other believe.
I'm not a scholar but I sincerely already put enough evidence of TRUTH which speaks for it self.
Allah says: Oh Mohammad! your duty is only to pass on the message. Its up to Me to put it in somebodies heart!
The whole Quran is the proof of Prophets Mohammads(PBUH) truthfulness.
AND HIS WHOLE LIFE IS FULL OF VIRTOUS AND FORGIVENESS.
Go and see your self, ask any Muslim scholar. Visit PEACE TV links!
He had no reason to lie, other wise he could have made the redicule of the Christian believes for example hearing voices and getting pregnant, but he didn't. He only spoke the TRUTH!
Read Quran and have the answer of every bothering question from Muslim scholars. By the time you will finish Quran, you will not be left with ANY (1000) bothering question INSHALLAH!
December 8, 2007 8:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 8, 2007 08:11
Moody,
Your entire faith in Allah and the quran depends on your trust in Mohammad, what makes you so sure that the quran is God's word ? How do you know Mohammad did'nt lie ?
Afterall Mohammad was a wicked war mongering arabian chief who commited the crimes of looting, killing, paedophlila, stoning etc.
Please tell us why do you trust this man ? Why would any person who is in contact with God lead an immoral life like Mohammad ?
And please list 3 truly honorable deeds of Mohammed.
VIRTUES are the CORNERSTONE of FAITH.
Ross
December 8, 2007 6:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 8, 2007 06:00
Christians always have there own decieving way with there language.
-I and Father are the one.
means we are on the same side, the rightous side)
-If you have seen me you have seen the father, I'm the way and the truth.
(means like on their times all the previous Prophets are the way and the truth and who have seen them seen the Father OR the way of the Father OR the way choosen by the Father).
And please don't avoid many QUESTIONS raised in by my previous 2 mails.
LIKE YOUR CHURCH AND PREISTS ALWAYS DO!!! NEVER CAME TO OPEN PUBLIC DEBAT WITH MUSLIMS??????
Questions like few mentioned below:
1- To whome Jesus(A.S) use to prostrate? Does God prostrate in front of any body???
2- To whome he refered greater them him?
3- To which people house Jesus(A.S) prefer to come again, (i)to the house of people how claim they love him (christians) BUT BREAK EACH AND EVERY LAW HE CAME TO FULFIL or (ii) to the house of people who follow each and every law of Jesus(A.S) as well which he came to fulfil (We muslims)???
AND ALL THE REST OF THE QUESTIONS IN MY PREVIOUS MAILS? I WOULD LIKE TO SEE IF YOU DARE TO ANSWER?
One needs to see through the FABRICATED LIES which are constantly REVISED AND REMOVED till today and hardly left with any authenticity.
December 8, 2007 5:00 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 8, 2007 05:00
TO MOODY:
I have met God and I have met all Three Persons of the Trinity. God revealed Himself to me in His way.
One of the things that God says in the bible is, "Remember I have chosen you, you haven't chosen Me". I have said "Yes" tho and that is not my opinion but a fact.
When the bible says, "Let Us make man in Our Image", well that is alluding to something, it doesn't say, Let Me, but, Let Us.
When Jesus was walking this earth one of the things that He said was, "I and the Father are One".
Another thing that He said to Phillip was, "How long have you been with Me if you have seen Me you have seen the Father", this was in response to Phillip asking to see the Father. Jesus was not being boastful or nothing of the kind, He was just being Truthful.
Jesus was either telling the truth or He wasn't.
If He was telling the truth the the being that came to Muhammed was lying. If He was lying than the being that came to Muhammed picked a liar to be his second-rate prophet behind Muhammed.
In Judaism and Christianity there are only true and false prophets, there are no second-rate prophets.
I have also met satan and he can try to come across as mister nice guy but he isn't.
satan is a liar and a thief and like Jesus said, "It is in his [satan's] very nature".
satan is also decribed as an accuser and a deceiver.
God is a Being of Pure Love and even tho the bible has been twisted and distorted immensely, the bible is about God's Plan for Mankind and for All of Humanity to eventually be with Him in His Kingdom.
By the way, God is not a male or a female or an it, even tho God-Incarnate was a Man.
Another thing the reason that the Jews are the Chosen People is that God Chose Them. Being the Chosen People does not mean that they are better or anything like that, it just means that they are the Chosen People.
Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
December 7, 2007 3:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 7, 2007 15:17
Thomas & Ross,
1- I havent qouted the exact words but more or less the same expresion.
2- One better speak upon evidence and not upon personal opinion. Read both the books and evaluate your self which is human/satan handy work keep on changing taking out lies/ incorrect maths/information and which is divine unchanged/correct. And ask your self does God lies and decieve or satan????
3- I would also expect your answer to my questions in this post and previous???
December 7, 2007 3:12 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 7, 2007 03:12
TO MOODY:
You wrote, " Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them."
What Jesus said was, "I have not come to abolish the Law but to fulfill it".
God is Love, a Being of Pure Love, He is not the power hungry, hate filled, egomaniac that some people seem to think that He is.
Since God is Love, following Love, not hatred and/or indifference, is how to fulfill the Law.
There is quite a difference between what you said He said and what the bible said He said.
When and if you read what I write, it is up to you but you should read what I write not what you read into it, I try to be very straightforward in what I say.
You refer to "you Christians", I have never referred to "you Muslims".
God loves us, He doesn't want us to be afraid of Him.
Submitting is out of fear, obeying should be out of love.
We are all God's children, Jesus is God-Incarnate, God wins, satan loses, a tie is completely and utterly unacceptable.
God's Plan is for All of His children to be in The Kingdom.
Take care, be ready, see you in the Kingdom.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
December 5, 2007 5:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 17:17
moody wrote:
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
For a moment let us "assume" the quran is right about all the listed science stuff, now the question remains why do you think it is from god and not Satan, Why can't this stuff be dictated by Satan ? How are you so sure satan has no knowledge of these things ?
What in your opinion is the main difference between God and satan ?
December 5, 2007 9:26 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 09:26
You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have….twist or lie
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THE TRUTH:
THAT EVERY RATIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!
MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK. THE ONLY LOGIC IS THAT ITS FROM SOMEONE WHO IS COMMUNICATING TO A HUMAN AND KNOWS BETTER THAN HUMANS)
- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.
Verses about:
1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.
AND MANY MORE............
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
December 5, 2007 7:45 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 07:45
Thomas Baum,
I don't mind your language because by now I came to conclusion that it is common norm in west, false accusations and slinging dirt on others IGNORING CONCRETE PROOFS.
And now in reply to your post:
MUSLIMS OBEY JESUS (A.S.) AND HIS GOD OF ALL CREATURES MORE THEN CHRISTIANS:
BRINGING PROOF FROM YOUR OWN BIBLE BECAUSE YOU BELIEVE IN IT SO YOU NEED IT TO VARIFY, AS MUSLIMS PROOF AND WHAT WE BELIEVE IS QURAN.
Lies or Truth: Evidence speaks for it self !
1- There is not a single verse in ANY VERSION of Bible where Jesus (A.S) said, worship me OR I'm god. Instead he said,” I speak what I hear from father”, “My Father is greater than me."
2- Again word "Trinity" is not mentioned in ANY VERSION of the Bible. The closest verse to trinity that,” Father, Holy Ghost & spirit is one" is thrown out in your REVISED VERSION of Bible. As all your high priests said,” It was a concoction, fabrication, addition, a lie in the Bible, as no such verse is found in the most ancient scriptures".
So please ask your own priests who is lying and fabricating??????
3-We Muslims FOLLOW more in Jesus (A.S) commandments then you Christians:
(You say, you love Jesus (A.S.), but you disobey his every commandment).
4-From Adam to Jesus (PBUT) MENTIONED IN YOUR BIBLE, all prophets when prayed to God, they prostrated like we Muslims.
Do you follow Jesus, how to pray?
5- In ALL Bibles more than 3 times Jesus said swine-pig is forbidden to eat. We Muslims follow him, but you Christians follow PAUL and disobey Jesus (A.S.) commandments.
6- More than 4 occasions in ALL Bibles Jesus (A.S) told wine has bad attributes on the humans. But Paul quotes the "FIRST MIRACLE OF JESUS" and since then wine is flowing like water in Christendom and NOT AT ALL in Muslimdom. (Bible said water tasted like wine and never said turned into wine).
7- Jesus said," I came to keep all the commandments of the God and not to break them". But you Christians broke EACH AND EVERY of them.
Hale-aluu-Yaa to Church, Paul, Mathew, John and Luke!!!!!
8-According to Christian Bible first miracle of Jesus (A.S.) was turning water taste like wine and recovering the shortage in the gathering. But according to Quran the first miracle of Jesus was talking to Jews when he was infant in his mother’s arms.
When after birth, Mary came:
According to the BIBLE she told the Jews that she hear voices and then had a child birth. Do you believe your daughter or sister, if she come and tell you she had birth after hearing voices? Do you think when “IF” Mary had told that to the Jews, they would have believed her???
But Quran tells that the Jews accused her, she knows that Jesus (A.S) was the miraculous birth. So she told the Jews ask the infant. And miraculously Jesus (A.S) talked to them and told them that I’m the messenger from God, therefore be nice and respectful to my mother as she is among the highest of the pious. Quran gives highest respect to Mary, even there is a complete chapter by her name in Quran. You have chapters named by Mathew, Luke, John or lying Paul and many others but not a single by his mothers name Mary.
Which version would you like to tell to your children, HEARING VOICES AND GETTING PRAGNANT or MIRACULOUS TALK????
9-Christians says Jesus (A.S) was the BEGOTTEN SON. What are you trying to apply here? So what you are trying to put in all the humans throat is that the All Mighty God Who made every thing miraculously from Adam to every thing of this world needs to come done to seed…. (God forgive us for such satanic thinking). Allah tells in Quran that when He wants to do some thing, He just says and it happens. He begets not nor He begotten. Human miracles are not the proof of any kind of divinity. Jesus (A.S) was the prophet like all other prophets with miracles.
10-Christians says Jesus (A.S) get crucified for there sins. And a son of god (not mentioned any where in the Bible he himself never said that). And dozens of Bible verses proving that he was not died through crucifixion. You Christians are also divided about it.
So basically what you are making to swallow us (the whole human race) is that the whole nation rape, kill and do bad atrocities and when brought for justice there King hang his own son instead of punishing them. IT DOES REALLY MAKE SENSE! Hale- alu- Yaa PAUL and the greatest deceiving of the human history.
11- Jesus says “ He is jealous God only pray to Him”. But Christians are eager to make partner to Him. We Muslims only pray to God and don’t make any partners to Him.
So I am asking you a question:
Next time does Jesus (A.S) come to the house of people who are obeying his commandments OR who are TOTALLY disobeying his commandments???
December 5, 2007 7:38 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 07:38
Thomas Baum wrote:
You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.
I agree with what you say about islam, infact if you read the hadith's Mo displayed signs of demonic possession during those revelations (very similar to epilepsy) fainting, hallucinations, foaming in the mouth etc.
But islam is a CULT, here's a few reasons why:
1. Death for apostates.
2. Women not allowed to marry outside CULT.
3. Systematic brainwashing since childhood.
4. Death/Punishment for critics.
5. Strict prayer times for every muslim.
6. Charity only to be given to members/organisations within this CULT.
7. A Master Slave relationship with ALLAH.
8. Mohammad said SUBMIT and not DECIDE with free will.
see faithfreedom.org
December 5, 2007 4:58 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 04:58
" Thomas Baum:
TO ROSS AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:
You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.
It was not Gabriel but satan that came to Mohammed, satan is not only a liar but a deceiver."
If you read this back to yourself, do you understand what I and other mean by "Your Satan?"
Seems to me that even if you don't much care for Islam, you don't need any 'divils' involved for things to go bad... much to the likely chagrin of Concerned Christian...
Cause *he* ...like *you* and *so many* would rather think *evil* of half the world than accept uncertainty.
It's why you don't get science. Why you don't get me, and *forget* about the spirit world.
Or for some, even the *existence* of faith or religion, cause you *can't accept it except in terms of something you can call "controlled" before you even look at it.
One thing I'll tell you is people can screw up a book without any nasties even getting involved.
This is what all you book people, Christian, Muslim, or alleged atheist, must know.
If you trust Who 'Made' Us, *you must chill.*
It's very easy to say 'If it doesn't agree with my book, it must be Satan!' Then argue a lot.
It's only hard at first to *just breathe.* It's not exactly an ideal scenario right now, but *breathe.*
It's not gonna get any better with recriminations of 'Satan' and 'Voodo' and all the usual indirect yaddayadda that somehow never actually works.
One thing I can tell you, is, if you believe in Archangels, it's perfectly possible for someone to meet an Archangel and produce something totally-messed-up around the occasion.
I would say to you, that if you believe anything that big exists in the first place, maybe you could live with people being smaller.
At the very least, it couldn't hurt to be good at being one.
I've seen real horrors in my life. I've even seen and dealt with a lot of stuff I'd call 'Very Bad Spirits.'
But most of it, people really can do on their own. Or at least, the spirits don't need to be That Bad for things to get messed-up.
Frankly, for things to get bad, Thomas, it doesn't *take* a Satan like you believe in. Just people. Afraid and seeking to control, so they do a little more, a little more, and a little more.... and next thing you know, great shame and dishonor is being defended as 'virtue.'
In the name of defending it, they seem to make the 'divil' bigger. And bigger, and bigger, till they hurt the innocent and profess powerlessness against your 'Satan.'
Same Pretty Wingie Talkie Thingies that vex Concerned. Cause if people hurt this much and are yet expected to be so perfect, there *must* be 'divils and Satans and false prophets,' mustn't there?
What if.... It's not that hard?
And that is something some find hardest of all to accept.
December 5, 2007 1:53 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 01:53
As for 'demons,' some believe they are a real and specific kind of creature that must actualy 'exist' in order for some other things to be true or acceptably-true.
What I call a 'demon' is a creature that takes a little bit of fear, and then spins it into a *big* fear, and somehow expects to subsist on the results.
"Padraig, Give Goll Mac Morna an iron tug for his flail."
:)
December 5, 2007 1:31 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 01:31
"Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:
Paganplace,
Smoking some voodoo fumes this evening?? Or is it a visit from a demon from the underworld??
"Until voodoo is removed from pagan rituals, no one is safe especially Paganplace"."
No, Concerned, I'm the Pagan they call when 'voodoo fumes' of whatever persuasion start stinking up the neighborhood.'
As such, I'll point out that you're the one vexed by your imaginings of others being controlled by 'pretty wingie talkie thingies.'
It's just possible that this is not the best way to define your consciousness, either in spiritual or rational terms.
And you could probably use a new name.
Here and elsewhere, both.
And I'm Irish: Tripe is about as stinky as it gets, unless you have some unnatural aversion to peat smoke. :)
December 5, 2007 1:22 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 5, 2007 01:22
Anon,
No one with any common sense believes in "pretty wingie talking flying fictional thinges". Ditto for their ugly counterparts aka " the demons of the demented".
The referenced site was to show that there have/are a large number of demon names given to a large number of demons by a large number of Pagans over the life span of hominids as a counter to one Pagan who noted that Pagans do not believe in demons.
December 4, 2007 9:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 21:51
TO ROSS AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:
You wrote, "Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.", actually islam is a religion of world domination, a wannabe theocracy by the wannabe god, satan.
It was not Gabriel but satan that came to Mohammed, satan is not only a liar but a deceiver.
Jesus is really Who He said that He is and that is God-Incarnate. God is a Trinity and He is Pure Love.
Isn't it just like satan to claim God as his prophet and then to say that God-Incarnate is just a second-rate prophet at that.
Jesus flat out said that He is God in the bible in more places than one, so He was either speaking the Truth or He was lying.
If He was speaking the Truth then the being that came to Mohammed was lying.
If He was lying then the being that came to Mohammed chose a liar to be his second-rate prophet.
Something to think about, don't you think?
I have met God, it doesn't matter if anyone one believes me or not but I would like to say something: There is going to be a lot of people hiding behind their religion and their "holy books".
Like I have said before, it is important what you do and why you do it and what you know, knowing God's Name doesn't get you off the hook, so to speak, on the contrary maybe it means you should follow Him or at least try to.
There is a lot of hatred being spewed out in God's Name, and I do mean the True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God, and that couldn't be any further from the truth since God is a Being of Pure Love.
Take care, be ready, see you all in the Kingdom.
Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.
December 4, 2007 6:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 18:38
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented. "
Then why were you claiming a few posts up that Pagans - who do not believe in demons or the Devil, were doing so? And your link went to a very lurid but un-factual website listing a bunch of made-up Bible characters and former Pagan Gods who were "demonized" to keep their worshippers from going back to them. So, what is it, CCNL? Do you believe in demons but not angels?
December 4, 2007 5:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 17:55
Moody,
Apparently you have not seen the list of 9/11 victims. As part of your neuron purification see: http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/victims_list.htm
Add this to your standard Program for "Deflawing" Islam as posted previously but apparently you lost your copy:
Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"1. Belief in Allah"
"aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added to your cleansing neurons.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your orthodox Islamic ways!!!!
December 4, 2007 2:12 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 14:12
John -- I may be incorrect about pregnancy, zina, and Saudi Arabia. I thought I had read of a case of a 14 year old girl raped by an uncle and convicted of zina on the grounds of the resulting pregnancy,while the uncle went free because there was no proof of her accusations, but I could be mistaken about this.
Paganplace -- ignoring the later rants... -- Yes we have a long way to go in dealing with intolerance, racism, hatred, and extremism. There are some who will struggle against all forms of bigotry with rational arguments and others who will turn to scripture. I believe we cannot afford to ignore either tool in the campaign for a more humane world. There are some who will be swayed by scripture and intepretation; there are others who will be swayed by rational argument. Limiting ourselves to one tactic or the other loses part of our potential audience.
As for legislation -- I am totally opposed to ennacting laws which claim to be Divine in origin. As one of the commentators pointed out, scripture may be of divine origin, but it's interpretation is purely human. Shariah is a human contsruct in which scholars tried to do their best to understand what the Divine will might be. Those scholars were well-intentioned, but ultimately human and fallible. They could, and did, make mistakes, some of them grievous. Not only that, their rulings must be seen as particular to the situation they were referring to -- a particular social millieu, a particular culture with its own assumptions about human nature, even a particular set of disputants or questioners whose personal situation is unique to themselves. Their rulings in all likelihood make no sense for a different culture, a different millieu, and a people who have vastly different understanding of what it is to be a human being. Regardless of these considerations, tho, I would oppose any new understanding of shariah law if it is posited as divine being ennacted as the law of country.
The sticky part comes in that every law, even secular ones, has morality behind it. We have laws about theft, fraud, even public indecency. The morality of the people who ennacted those laws may come from scripture or reason or some innate sense of right or wrong. We cannot dictate where a person derives there morality from, even a legislator. The key is that the laws must be mutable (since it is a human construct). Our understanding of what is moral changes, so too laws must change with those understandings.
And yes, I agree, there is a lot of work cut out for those of us trying to limit the effects of fanaticism, hysteria, and zealotry.
December 4, 2007 10:40 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 10:40
Ross,
Thank you for your intellectual judgement about Quran.
I hope some day you will read it too!
December 4, 2007 7:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 07:32
Moody wrote:
I'm mentioning THE TRUTH and all you are talking about the discoveries about the truth. The point is not by whom BUT discovered. I DON'T BLAME YOU IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE!
What proof do you have it is the truth, you can only convince yourself it is the truth after those discoveries have been made by the non muslims. Again why do you need non muslim discoveries to aunthicate your quran ?
The truth is that there is hardly any science in the quran and whatever's in it was already discovered by indians, greeks etc CENTURIES before. Nor is there any religious content in this book, there is no message for mankind, just verses inciting violence, hatred, cruelty against non muslims.
Islam is a CULT and the quran is its operating manual.
December 4, 2007 5:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 05:15
Let me correct my self,
BUSH AND IN THERE ALL ADMINISTRATIONS OPINION, THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID...right CCNL!
December 4, 2007 12:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 00:50
Ross:
I'm mentioning THE TRUTH and all you are talking about the discoveries about the truth. The point is not by whom BUT discovered. I DON'T BLAME YOU IF YOU CAN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE!
CCNL:
You and like your have no shame comparing couple of thousand with millions of FREEDOM SPONSERED killings. Where many of those unjust actions have NO PROOF to link with the TERROR FIGHTERS.
e.g., 9/11
Click on google just 9/11 and you will find all kind of expert, professional and scientific PROOFS showing that those planes couldn't at all possibly collaspe the towers.
Let me give you line of direction towards the investigation to find the truth.
1- Why all the jews of towers were on holiday on 9/11?
2- See the demolition and destruction of all kind of building, bombed, burned for MANY DAYS and not couple of floors for FEW HOURS on google.
3- See the pattern of buildings falling when destroyed and compare with technique of IMPLOSION is applyed? see on google!
4- On google you will also find the towers timely and systematic blasts on each floor flim captured.
5- On google see Pentagon crach recording. Where are the impact of wings in the hole of the wall? Was it a plane crash?? Where is the rubble? See on google.
6-How could the passport of terrorist found, safe and perfect OUT OF PLANE??
BUSH THINKS THE WHOLE WORLD IS STUPID....right CCNL!
December 4, 2007 12:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 4, 2007 00:34
Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,
Please note the following:
The Body Count and why "Until the koran is deflawed, no one is safe!!!!
1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens,
2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 77,573 – 84,502 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.[2]
4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.
5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.
6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.
7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.
December 3, 2007 6:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 18:39
back on topic-
paganplace- you confused me with jihadist- ididnt mention sin, or define it, but jihadist did an excellent job of it.
and again- you missed yet another point-
christans ARE as we speak, successfully giving (socialist hence communist hence idolatrous athiest worship?) health care
for all your talk about freedom, you sure were quick to tell soja to shut up when she posted ON TOPIC-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Soja. Whatever you're on about. It's not helping.
This is about someone we know who spams a lot and has a heritage and a soul. What he says is not actually about you. Shh."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
and no- the topic ISNT about someone who spams alot- nor is it about YOU and your one-pointed focus that christians (and monotheists)are to blame for every bad act on the planet.
actually, getting back off the rants-
sojas post did help me-
in a deeper sense we are responsible before the god for our own actions-
it's keeping society functioning that we are discussing here-
a society we all live in- certainly america has its share of rapists and victims, and sexual predators (which is a category a politician who abuses his position to perpertrate his own sexual needs upon can be fit into)
and this affected all of us on a macrocosmic scale in america- didnt it?
clintons indiscretion with ms. lewinsky shool the foundations of our leadership so much so that we started impeachment proceedings against a sitting president.
as we enter the next presidential election cycle- this issue is peculiarly releveant.
hillary was the first lady who appropriated the entire east wing as the dominion of the first lady- a suite that her husband, the potential future 'first laddie' (to quote bill) may be sitting in.
are bills fumbling lies enough to keep americans from voting for his wife in 2008?
i really dont think so myself- but it did and does diminish his veracity.
personally,i am a great deal more distressed by the lies that have resulted in the deahts of our troops and 1 million iraqis (not to mention the 4.2 million and climbing iraqi refugees)
so back on topic- i think it is certainly forgivable-
and it seems many americans do also.
December 3, 2007 3:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 15:31
CCNL - You don't believe in angels, but you do believe in demons?
Most of the "Pagan demons" are actually Pagan Gods that became demons when the Church took over.
December 3, 2007 2:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 14:52
Athena,
Based on the large number of names of pagan demons, you must be a member of a small minority of pagans who don't believe in them.
And thanks for equating "Voodoo Fumes" to smoking marijuana. I did not find that relationship in my exhaustive review of the subject.
December 3, 2007 2:01 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 14:01
CCNL,
You know as much about Paganism and Voudou as you do about Islam. Whis is to say, not much. Do you even pay attention to what others say, or do you just try to make fun of what they believe in?
You were implying by using the terms "Voodoo Fumes" that Paganplace (and by association, all Pagans) smoke marijuana. That is hardly the case. While a few Pagans will do it in the privacy of their own homes, we obey all laws while in public places. Oh, and we DO NOT believe in demons. But in your case, we'll make an exception.
December 3, 2007 1:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 13:52
Lepi......
Hmmm, "Voodoo Fumes"
Modulus dream [Archive] - TalkBass ForumsAnalyse that ! ;) What if Hendrix had the chance to set fire to a Modulus on stage...It would probably put off a lot of fumes...VOODOO FUMES. ...
www.talkbass.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-7972.html - 10k - Cached - Similar pages
Miles Davis : The Cellar Door Sessions 1970 - Listen, Review and ...If you like your Miles fierce,hallucinatory, with strong wafts of VOODOO FUMES and crackling nightmare talent, then this is your sonic fuel depot. ...
artistdirect.com/nad/store/artist/album/0,,3406588,00.html - 61k - Cached - Similar pages
MAGICK WITCHES AND PAGANS - Demons
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/david.kahan/page27.html- Wow, there were quite a few pagan demons but apparently your Pagan cult is more modern?
December 3, 2007 10:32 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 10:32
Moody,
The koran's 6000 verses were plagiarized from the works of the ancients (Hittites, Babylonians, Persians, Canaanites, Romans, Greeks, Jews, Egyptians et al) so please in the future give proper references to the source material.
December 3, 2007 9:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 09:39
Moody wrote:
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK)
If the quran contains so much scientific knowledge then why do muslims wait till the kaffirs make the actual discovery then claim it was in the quran all the time ?
Why do we not have a Skeikh Hamza using the quran to discover a sub atomic particle and name it after his beloved prophet "MOHAMMA-TRON" ? Or a Sheikh Bakhri using the quran to to contribute to the Human Genome project ?
Has the science in the quran helped the muslim world with any scientific breakthrough's or Achievements ?
Inspite of a 1000 or so verses containing scientific facts why is it there are only about 5 Muslim NOBEL prize winners out of a population of over a billion compared to 160+ nobel prize winning JEWS out of a population of around 20 million.
December 3, 2007 9:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 09:18
CCNL:
**Smoking some voodoo fumes this evening??**
OK, I'll bite. What are "voodoo fumes?"
**Or is it a visit from a demon from the underworld??**
We don't believe in demons, remember?
**"Until voodoo is removed from pagan rituals, no one is safe especially Paganplace".**
Vodoun is no more a part of my rituals than is transubstantiation of wine and bread.
And her point that pols use the sex lives of other pols to distract voters from other isses is a valid one.
December 3, 2007 8:20 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 08:20
You can close your eyes or do not accept for what ever reasons you have..
BUT YOU CAN'T DENY THAT EVERY RAIONAL INTELLIGENT LOGICAL KNOWLEDGE & SICENCE IS TESTIFYING FOR QURAN....AFTER EVERY NEXT DISCOVERY AND AWARENESS!
MODREN SCIENCE AND QURAN (ISLAMIC DIVINE BOOK)
Quran is not a book of science BUT a book of signs. It has more than 6000 verses out of which more than 1000 verses giving CLEAR signs about the modern scientific proven facts in recent couple of hundred years. (WHICH BY ANY POSSIBLE MEANS CANNOT BE SAID BY US HUMANS 1400 YEARS BACK)
- For some people ONE sign is enough to believe.
- For some people 10 signs are enough.
- But some people don't come to believe even after more than 1000 miraculous signs.
Verses about:
1- Big bang theory (in a nut shell).
2- Geo spherical Ostrich egg shaped earth (spherical which is the exact shape)
3- Cosmic dust (referred more perfectly as smoke).
4- How water seep into the earth and rain cycle through AIR.
5- Sweet and salt water of oceans and barrier between them.
6-Expanding sun, solar system and universe for given period of time
7- Earth, sun and stars revolving on their axis and path (orbits).
8- Sun and moon have different paths (orbits).
9- Sun and stars consuming there energy.
10- Reflected sun light of moon. In Arabic mooneer (moon) it self means reflected light.
11- Upper thin layer of earth, which is hold by mountains as nails (bigger in size deep in earth) from shacking.
12- Perfect shape and stages of human embryo.
13- All living being made out of water.
14- All plants and even fruits have male and female atributes.
15- The exact way of plants and animals behaviour and how they communicate.
AND MANY MORE............
THESE ARE ALL RECENT DISCOVERIES AND SIGN FOR THOSE SINCERELY SEEKING TRUTH!!!!!! AND REMEMBER THAT IS NOT WHAT QURAN IS ALL ABOUT... THESE ARE JUST TESTIFYING SIGNS WITHOUT ANY FLAW OR FAULT.
December 3, 2007 4:25 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 04:25
Paganplace,
Smoking some voodoo fumes this evening?? Or is it a visit from a demon from the underworld??
"Until voodoo is removed from pagan rituals, no one is safe especially Paganplace".
December 3, 2007 3:46 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 03:46
Whilst the Quran lays down many such rules for creation of a civil society, especially considering the pagan Arab society of the time, yet it also contains words translated as such: that..
'if you are faced with exercising justice or mercy, then choose mercy for God is merciful.'
Clearly this outcome is preferred by all of us, given a second chance. With mercy, we can live another day and be light, but punishment once meted, I find it hard to live with. Besides showing mercy when we have the power to do so is the highest form of nobility. We seldom see such from our leaders. To the contrary some also go beyond punishment to the extreme revenge. Yet the Quran repeatedly states that we should forgive when we have the 'power' to do so. "Al'afoa indal maqdara."
December 3, 2007 3:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 03:23
Hopefully Ms Taylor, the Muslims will hold their Imams to the same high moral standards that you expect the Christians to hold their priests and pastors to and the public to their public servants. A sexually promiscuous Imam who is a hypocrite, is just as bad a role model as a sexually promiscuous Catholic priest.
December 3, 2007 3:15 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 03:15
*ahem* I'm sorry, were you saying something, Soja?
December 3, 2007 2:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on December 3, 2007 02:39