"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit. In July 2005, she became the first woman in centuries to officiate Friday prayers in a mosque when the United Muslim Association of Toronto and the Muslim Canadian Congress invited her to serve as guest imam. (This event followed a number of services, sermons and prayer sessions led by women held in private venues because no mosque agreed to host them.) In February 2006, when the former Grand Mufti of Marseilles visited Toronto, he requested that Taylor lead him in congregational prayer as an unequivocal demonstration of his support for female imams. Taylor has also been active in interfaith dialogue for 20 years, both in local initiatives and speaking at numerous conferences, universities, and churches. She received her MTS from Harvard Divinity School, and writes regularly on spiritual matters and the Islamic faith. She has essays in Nurturing Child and Adolescent Spirituality: Perspectives from the World's Religious Traditions (2006) and the forthcoming The Veil: Women Writers on Its History, Lore, and Politics (2007). She has written hundreds of articles and opinion pieces for newspapers, magazines, and journals, and is an award winning poet.
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Pamela K. Taylor
co-founder, Muslims for Progressive Values
"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit.
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It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!
As an Australian, who may have a greater degree of objectivity on this subject than some others who have contributed here, I have a few comments to add.
In discussing these issues (ie Islam) Americans do not seem to possess any context for their opinions.
Firstly, although I understand the extreme reaction to 911, it seems that the vast majority of the American population has swallowed the idea that all Muslims are terrorists and that all terrorists are Muslim. The definition of terrorism is to use violence for political gain. What government has not done this? Few governments have done this more than the various American administrations over the past 50 years, both Rebublican and Democrat. American's, and people from all other Western nations, including my own, seem to care little about the mass death and disorder they cause within 3rd world nations but if anything happens to them all must pay. Also, previous to 911, all races were represented within the concept of 'terrorist'. If I had heard the word 'terrorist' prior to Sept 11th 2001 I would have thought of the Irish Republican Army.
I was shocked to see a recent poll which stated that approx 30% of American's couldn't even rememeber in what year 911 happened! I'm sure many of these people have quite passionate opinions on Iraq, even through they may not be able to locate it on a map.
Also, Western non-Muslims are very quick to point out the negative aspects of Islam, and the many commands to commit violent acts. If they are Christians they should think more deeply before they speak. The Bible contains numerous references to attacking others who do not possess the same faith, mostly within the Old Testament e.g. 'Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live' and the charming section where God tells his followers to attack a neighbouring tribe and kill everyone, smashing children against the rocks and taking girls young enough to now have 'known a man' as trophies. Oh what a loving God...who commands the killing of people from other religions and the mass rape of young girls. This is Jehovah, the Lord God from the Bible, not Allah.
I am ashamed at this time in history to be a part of Western 'civilisation', to be associated with a population which is composed of such an amazing number of ignorant, bigoted, racists. Let he is without sin throw the first stone.
I was not anonymous who posted the "Mopilah Rebellion". I've heard of it but I dont know much, I read the link you sent me.
The British were not in india to save the hindus or spread christianity but to rule and grow their empire. The switch from moslem rule to the british did cause the muslims to loose the upper hand. Most of india + pakistan + bangladesh was under muslim rule when the british arrived, muslims constitued about 40 percent of the population, if india was indeed peaceful during the muslim rule it does not explain the muslim growth in the population. When this growth is extrapolated for another 200 years had the british not ruled india, we can project a muslim population of around 70%.
I take it that the anonymous who posted "Mopilah Rebellion" on 10 July 2007 at 6:08 AM was you, hence this response is addressed to you.
My profuse apologies for not being aware of the history of the Muslim Rebellion in Kerala in 1921. My bad! India was a full-fledged British colony since 1858, so the quelling of the rebellion was in their role as rulers of the country, not coming to the aid of Hindus in India/Kerala as an outsider.
By the way I wish to note that my comment was directed at the intentional stance of British colonisation, which you seemed to imply (or at least that is the way I interpreted it) was to save the Hindus from Muslims. I had mentioned some time ago on another thread that Indian history does bear witness to Muslim violence in the past. But it is unfair and unproductive not to mention the good Muslim rule brought to India, and to keep eyes focussed only on the bad. India gained its independence in 1947 after two hundred years of British, not Muslim, rule. So the discussion about Muslim rule goes back prior to that. Even the Hindu-Muslim violence one reads about today should be viewed in the context of the whole Muslim population of 138 million. Hindu fundamentalists should take responsibility for their own role in the tragedy. An eye for an eye attitude doesn't work to bring about peace. It never has.
British rule likewise was after all not all good nor all bad and yet Britian and free India parted as friends, not bitter enemies; and we remain friends. Why should innocent Muslims of today have to bear responsibility for wrongs done by some Muslims, rulers or otherwise, in the past?
Thanks once again for reminding me of the Mappila Rebellion in Kerala.
Secondly, there isn't a thing in the non-cut-n-copy part of your post that hasn't already been discussed in these threads. Your generalizing is a clear display of ignorance.
I take it you are not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim since that would make you a blasphemer too.
Why not put a little more effort toward actually learning something, instead of seeking out bigoted and ignorant confrontations.
Maybe you should contact Frank Collins. He's a bigoted, ignorant, irrational dilettante too...BUT he's got a knack for it.
In a rare confirmation, Iran on Tuesday said a man convicted of adultery was stoned to death last week in a village in the northern part of the country, Iran's judiciary spokesman said.
Jafar Kiani was stoned to death in Aghchekand village, 124 miles west of the capital, Tehran, on Thursday, Ali Reza Jamshidi told reporters. It was the first time in years that Iran has confirmed such an execution.
"This verdict was carried out Thursday," Jamshidi told reporters.
Death sentences are carried out in Iran after they are upheld by the Supreme Court. Under Iran's Islamic law, adultery is punishable by stoning...
Jamshidi didn't elaborate on how the stoning was carried out, but under Islamic rulings, a male convict is usually buried up to his waist while a female criminal is buried up to her neck with her hands also buried.
Those carrying out the verdict start throwing stones and rocks at the convict until he or she dies...
Capital offenses in Iran include murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy, blasphemy, serious drug trafficking, adultery or prostitution, treason and espionage.
End of quote.
All the pagans, all the Jews, and all the Christians who post on this web site are blasphemers in one way or another and so is Ms. Pam. In Iran or under Islamic law you would be stoned to death. Tell me any place in the world where pagans, Christians, Jews are any other group are stoning adulterers and there are laws, like Sharia, that would call for the stoning of blasphemy or apostasy. This only happens in the backward Islamic nations. The literal interpretation of Islam ends with Sharia law and with terror. That is something Pam is advocating and she does not even know it.
'Allah's Reward for all good people-Not exclusively for Muslims'.
No,completely wrong.It doesnt fit to Islam and Quran.
According to Quran,you should say 'La ilaha illallah',you should worship 150 times in arabic and you should do good deeds,otherwise you cant be 'true believer'.
In islam,there are two kind of men.Muslim and non-muslim(infidel,disbeliever,qafir).If you are not 'sincere muslim',you cant go to the Paradise(Allah Reward) where the teenager girl without breast are waiting you(such as exactly written)
'If only the people of Book had believed(islam) and been righteous(muslim),we should remit their sins from them and admitted them to garden of bliss' 5.65
'who seeks as religion other than islam,it will not be accepted from him,and he will be a loser in the Hereafter' 3.85
'is not there a home in hell for disbeliever?' 29.68
Tufail,
In islam,there is NOT any other 'religion'.Islam is the only Religion,so according to Quran,christianity is not religion and christian is not believer.Christian,Jew,Shintoist,Chinese,Buddist,Hindu etc. are all infidel and disbelievers.
You made a terrible mistake in your article,you say 'the Books(Torah,Psalm,Gospel,Quran)...,No,wrong,death wrong.Torah,Psalm,Gospel are NOT Books,there is only one Book in islam,this is Quran.
Allah hates and curses to non-muslims.
'I(Allah) will cast Fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve(non-muslims)' 8.12
'They do blaspheme who say Allah is christ' 5.72
'They surely disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three(Trinity)' 5.73
These are absolute clear,that means the christian is blasphemer,so how can he/she can benefit from the Allah's Reward ?
2.62 may be considered as one of contradictions in islam and besides,2.62 says 'who believe in Allah(not God).
When I write this article,I hear following news from CNN.
'The Vatican on Tuesday said christian denomination outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ'.
Has this Vatican adopted 'Koranic doctrine'?
There is a misconception that all religions seem to feel that their way is 'the ONLY way'. That appears to be true for a lot of them, but not all. Not only do Pagans acknowledge many paths to the same thing, but are of the mindset that there are SUPPOSED to be. And that one way, even our own, is not somehow more or less 'truthful' than others.
You said 'Are chaplains put in place to make soldiers and marines feel that the enemy is different, that somehow the enemy's religion makes them less valuable to God?'
I sure hope not. I was under the impression that chaplains were supposed to give comfort to soldiers when they needed it in a time of crisis, seeing as how war often leads to questioning one's personal faith. I would hope a Pagan chaplain, when one is implemented, would understand that and act accordingly.
There is something that is enormously confusing about the issue of military chaplains. The great majority of service members and, thus, chaplains are Christian. It would be difficult to think of a less Christian act than attacking a nation that was not really a threat to one's own nation. Our famously Christian president did just that.
Are chaplains put in place to make soldiers and marines feel that the enemy is different, that somehow the enemy's religion makes them less valuable to God? There have been countless religions over the course of mankind's development. Every one differs from every other, so only one could be completely without error.
Which one is that perfect religion? If it is Christianity, which version? There are Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and many others. There are various types of Muslims and Jews, also. It is probable that only a very few people have discovered the "right" religion or that no one has.
Many people are absolutely certain that they know the religious truth. Many children are certain that there is a Santa Claus. Many people believed in an earth-centric universe and in Greek gods who were half human and half deity and who had risen from the dead. Being sure does not make one correct.
"apparently you islamics forgot to read the above damands of your koran when you post that we are all the same crap, which you do not believe."
Dr. Frank Collins PhD.,
You must be a genius! You teach Abnormal Psychology...by EXAMPLE! I can't believe I misunderstood your crazy rants, diregard for the English language, and general disoriantation while asserting your advanced credentials.
The conduct of the seven Islamic, koranic brainwashed doctors in the UK and the 24/7 butchery of Shiites by Sunnis and vice versa vitiates all of your commentary about "peaceful" and "charitable" Islam.
Allah’s Reward for all good people—Not exclusively for Muslims
According to the Koran, facing to any direction or praying in any particular manner does not carry you to Heaven. In other words, rituals without good deeds are useless. According the Koran, what matters is:
“It is not piety that you turn your faces towards the East or the West, but pious are those who believe in God, and the hereafter, the angels, the Books (Torah, Psalm, Gospels, Koran), and the prophets; and those, for the love of God, give of their wealth to kinsmen, the orphans, the indigent, wayfarers, beggars, and for the redemption of slaves; and observe prayers, and pays purification dues, And who honor their pledge when they are committed to a pledge and who have patience in tribulation and adversity, and in time of distress; such are they who are faithful, and such are the venerators.” (Koran 2:177).
According the following verses justice of the Day of Judgment is not based upon “Muslim whims or Christians or Jewish whims,” but is based upon good deeds.
“It is neither dependent on your (Muslim’s) whims nor the whims of the People of the Books (Jews and Christians), but whosever does misdeeds shall be punished for it, and will find no protector or friend apart from God; whoever, whether man or woman, does righteous deeds and is a believer of God will surely enter Paradise. None shall be deprived even an iota of his/her reward.” (Koran 4:123-124).
Moreover, the Koran explicitly condemns those Muslims who pray but do not feed the needy:
“Woe, then, unto those ones whose hearts from their prayer are remote [and] those who wants to be seen and praised, and, withal, deny all assistance to their fellowmen” (Koran 107:4-7]. Same viewpoint is stated in Verse 4:142.
After laying down every mode of conduct for Muslims, the Koran states one of these phrases: “God hears and knows al things,” “for God is well aware of all you do,” and “for God knows well the secrets of your heart.” These phrases are warnings to Muslims that Allah does not shield them from accountability to their actions and they will have retribution for all their misbehavior. In Koranic context, the faith, whether it is Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any faith without good deeds, is of no use on the Day of Judgment. The Koran rhetorically rejects the claim of exclusive salvation by Christians and Jews, and then says that all those who do righteous are rewarded. Contemporary Muslims also claim that the Paradise is only for those who claim to be Muslims. The Koran rejects these claims emphatically in the following verses:
"And they say: 'none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' Those are their vain desires. Say: 'Produce your proof if you are truthful.'. No-whoever submits his whole self to God and is a doer of good will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: ‘The Christians are not right,’ and the Christians say: The Jews are in the wrong;’ yet both read the scriptures…" [Koran 2:111-113].
The above verse is complemented by the following verses to reject the concept of the exclusive love and reward for Muslims or any one particular faith.
"Every soul will receive its reward by measure of its endeavor." (Koran 20:15)
In this verse, the phrase “every soul” receiving reward negates the contemporary Muslim claim of exclusivity for God’s love and reward unless Muslims make parallel assertion that Christians, Jews, and others do not have souls and Muslims are the only ones with souls.
Another verse states:
"And to all are assigned degree according to the deeds which they have done, and in order that God may recompense the deeds, and no injustice be done to them." (Koran 46:19)
The Koran does not put all “people of the book (Jews and Christians)” in one basket. The Koran graciously states that there are righteous people among the people of the books. The phrase, “People of the Book”, in the Koran means Christians and Jews. Allah would not reject their good deeds for being Jew or Christians. The Koran states:
“They are not all alike. Of the people of the scriptures (Christians and Jews), there is a staunch community who recites the revelations of God in the night, falling prostrate (before Him). They believe in God and the Last Day, enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one another in good works. They are righteous. Of the good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; For God knows well those that do right." (Koran 3: 113-115)
Finally, the Koran teaches that all good people of all faiths have nothing to fear from Allah. In the following verse, the good deeds over belief systems are again stressed.
"Those who believe in the Koran and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and Sabians, and any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Koran 2:62)
According the above verses, any who believe in God and live nobly and morally are nothing to fear from God and will be rewarded proportionate to their good and bad deeds.
Catholic Church adopted the above Koranic doctrine only recently in the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
All places of worship celebrate God’s name and God protects all of them
God is not worshipped in Mosques alone and it is a Muslim duty to allow and protect all places of worships. “For had it not been God’s repelling some men against others, the monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which God’s name is daily celebrated would have been destroyed. And God will surely help one who helps Him”. (Koran 22:40).
Unfortunately, no Christian Church or Synagogue is safe in contemporary Saudi Arabia, the land, where Prophet preached those words. No religion other than Wohabism of Saudi Arabia can be preached in that land where Prophet preached freedom. I have no reason to doubt that the defenders of freedom of faith, described in the above verse, are America and Americans except the extreme rights among them in our contemporary world even though the civil liberties have eroded recently. America, where people of all faiths as well as people without faith can safely believe and practice, protects and preserves the noble idea of the freedom of faith enshrined in the above verses. I admit such freedom does not exist in many of the contemporary Muslim nations.
Ross, on 5 July 2007 11:05 AM you wrote, "If the British hadn't intervened, the non-Muslim population of India today would be negligible."
Being an Indian-Australian woman with dual citizenship, I must ask you where you got your knowledge of Indian history from. So the British came to India to save the Hindus from being massacred into complete non-existence by Muslims? Islam came to Kerala (the state I hail from) during Prophet Mohammad's lifetime. There are 24.7% Muslims living in Kerala today. As far as I know the history of Kerala, Muslims have lived in peace with Hindus and Muslims and I do not recall that British troops were called to quell the violence of Muslims.
In case you missed my previous response to your comments on Sulayman S. Nyang's page,
You apparently are not keeping up with the "singularity commentary". Too much time reinvesting oil/blood profits? It is ironic how Muslim profits from our oil purchases go right back to supporting terror to keep the oil prices high!!!
Anyway:
B16's "new" book is simply the NT rehashed once again. For a better buy, see Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, 1997 (878 pages). The book is "Catholic" approved (imprimatur and Nihil obstat) and more than likely was used by B16 to prep his book (416 pages). Father Brown also reviews the historical Jesus movement in more than two pages.
Another "view from a recent review":
"For this reason, Crossan's new book _God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now_ (2007) represents far more forward-oriented thinking about Christian tradition than does Ratzinger's well-publicized new book. "
With the "no escape clauses" in your book of death and with the Malaysian Islamic "police" squads reading your e-mails, no one can determine what you say really has any meaning.
So to reiterate:
It is all about the koran and its authors. When you and her other liberal Muslims face the facts about their book of death and demand corrections, then we will make progress in conquering this koranic cancer.
If it were not for the "bred to kill", koranic crazies, we would need significantly fewer military personnel and therefore significantly fewer chaplains of any religion or pagan cult would be needed.
Jihadist, you should emphasize the eradication of these "bred to kill" crazies in your liberal Islamic commentaries. Until you do, we unbelievers will continue for our own safety to adhere to the following principle:
Gators vs. Muslims-- Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual, we cannot trust any of them. The recent conduct of the seven Islamic doctors in Great Britain proves the point
Apparently the Muslims on this blog are afraid of Islamic reprisals since they never give any suggestions for changes to the koran. So let us start the process for them.
Part 1 of the "cleansing".
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans. "
McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.
Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.
Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers. "
McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.
Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.
Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.
Muslims are victims of this cancer called islam, just view this video to see what it does to muslim minds :
*****WARNING********
Please be advised that the images in this video are NOT EASY TO WATCH. They are NOT suitable for children or people with heart conditions. As unfortunate as it is, this brutal and inhumane action is part of the reality in Iran under the rule of the mullahs and we are presenting it here to further expose the atrocities committed by them.
An unwed m o t h e r was stoned to death after she delivered the baby even though she repented profusely.
Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Book 38, Number 4426:
A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was s t o n e d to d e a t h.
Muslims MUST find a way to remove this modern CANCER—this fundamentalist DEATH CULT—that has infected their religion. None of us on the outside can do it for them.
Ohhhh...Concerned, hope for you yet, looking at statistics, demographics, sociology and economics too in considering at to whether Pagan Chaplains should be allowed in US military.
And what in the world is a "liberal" Muslim? I am a Muslim. Period. Born and bred too. Brainwashed? You wish. Can't stand it eh, for a Muslim to remain happily a Muslim.
Those doctors, living in a country with "freedom of religion". Makes me blush to think one actually got a PhD from Cambridge. Cambridge is the sort of university that sacked Bertrand Russell for his views. That saw the Keynes gay group, that also saw the commie group of Kim Philby as traitors.
You can't stand gays and commies and Muslims. So, Cambridge is a terrible university for all the heretics and mavericks and deviants and radicals that it gave rise to eh? Did you know in the 19th century, the bright young fellows in Cambridge actually thought it trendy to be into Robespierre and the Qur'an?
This is a lot of fun, reading Americans asking American Muslims (about 6 to 7 million out of 300 million inhabitants of the United States) to do something about the "cancer" in the Muslim world of 1.3 billion adherents.
Anyway, thanks for the reminder of the "cancer" in Islam. Ironically, Muslims do tend to think western norms, values and mores are cancer too.
And here I was also thinking in reading On Faith threads and some panelists here, that some have views that are cancerous to all Americans, and contrary to the Bill of Rights and US Constitution.
And don't forget the "cancer" caused by Islam and Muslims in Latin America miring it in poverty, bad governance and corruption. Don't forget how China, Cuba and North Korea, in following the Qur'an, is not democratic, and oppressing religious sorts too, including Christians.
It is because of Muslims, Islam and the Qur'an that Thailand is under a military regime; the Phillippines is a mess of bad governance and over-population; that Vietnam is still under a communist regime; that Burma is under a military junta, that Fiji has its fourth coup since 1987.
Everyone knows that the trafficking of women and children and drugs, and the sex trade in Thailand, Burma, Loas and Cambodia, the violence of crime in Brazil, the genocide in Rwanda, the HIV/AIDs in Africa, is due to Muslims and the Qur'an.
I am most flattered that Muslims and Islam are simultaneously, the new white men in being blamed for all the ills and sins of the world; and the new blacks in being vilified too.
I am pleased to know that that Muslims in the wider world, is given more power than China, EU and Russia as threats in the current and long-term to the US economically and politically. EU is, after all, going to be Islamic soon and have Shariah law formulated and implemented by EU bureaucrats in Brussels.
I hope for the non-Muslim world in Africa, Asia and Latin America to fully embrace modernisation and individual liberty too.
http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.
But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.
There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".
And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!
And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????
It is all about the koran and its authors. When Pamela and her other liberal Muslims face the facts about their book of death and demand corrections, then we will make progress in conquering this koranic cancer.
Since this whole thread seems to have abandoned the topic of pagan chaplains, I'll contribute a quote I found useful, from a column by Cathy Young in the Chicago Tribune:
"It is true that, in the age of militant Islamic terrorism, it is not very helpful to tell millions of peaceful Muslims that their religion is inherently violent, evil and oppressive. It is equally unhelpful...to deny the obvious: The best hope for peaceful coexistence is for the Islamic world to embrace modernization and individual liberty, not for the West to turn its back on those values."
(Cathy Young is an editor of the libertarian, conservative-leaning magazine "Reason.")
pamela, i have done research and you have been overwhelmingly silent.
even on this forum to the question "is islam violent" you stated: "let me be very clear the question is exceptionally offensive and borders on religious bigotry."
here's your thread on how satisfied you are in life. no word for your suffering coreligionists.
Please do some research before you say things like, "Why are you not speaking out for your sisters?" I speak out and act on behalf of my sisters all the time. The situation for many Muslim women is clearly desperate, a result of third world conditions combined with an upsurge of puritanical religiosity. Unfortunately, our ability to effect change in the Muslim world from here is limited, and the ability to effect change from within those countries is even more limited. We do what we can, but the best is to support individuals who are working on the ground there.
Masmoodah Jalal, for instance, who was the woman who ran for president in Afghanistan, has a foundation that focuses on education and health care for Afghani women. I strongly recommend supporting that organization (the Jalal Foundation) if you have the wherewithal.
Similarly I support efforts by international organizations such as Amensty International to put pressure on repressive governments.
pamelas words-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" We have written statements and signed petitions. We have issued theological explanations why terrorism is completely foreign to Islamic concepts of just war. It seems to me that enough is enough. We do not have to say something everytime some Muslim does something bad. And that to continue to do so just plays into the notion that somehow unless you say you hate this particular act of violence you condone it, even though you have clearly stated that you condemn all such acts of violence. That overarching statement obviously includes any act taking place before or after the statement has been made."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
does anyone really expect every muslim to preface ever utterance with such a denunciation?
how many times must she say it?
mercy, she has expressed sentiments that mirror your own expressed views paganplace
paganplace i am both irish and was catholic - as a matter of fact i worked in a restaurant for 1 1/2 years where i cooked irish food 6 days a week, and the ancient order of the hibernians met there a couple of times a week, sometimes more-
and at no time ever - in any instance whatsoever- did i- or anyone i know (who were alot of irish catholics) ever get asked to apologize for the terrorist in ireland because we were catholic and irish.
ever
it just didnt ever happen
on the other hand- theres a special on tv right now about muslims against jihad- and its pretty solidly a blnket accusation against any who claim to be religious and muslim-
while massively over dramatizing the issue of the irish- which just didnt exist- didnt happen- never saw any instance- any tv show nothing-
and minimizing the real hostility against muslims that WE CAN SEE ILLUSTRATED ABUNDANTLY RIGHT ON THESE BOARDS-
you are making a false connection based on anecdotal incidence (without even providing one anecdote)
diminishing the persecution others have experienced doesnt quantify the persecutions of others
you say they "often" ignore the christianconnection-
no they always ignore it-
ewven as a pagan you know you have never heard the words christian terrorist or protestant terrorist or catholic terrorist-
anywhere.
even when the irsh were blowing each other up regularly, it was orange and green, north and south-
as my brother used to say, there is far fetched, and further stretched.
McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.
Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.
Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.
"As for the plot in England involving the doctors, I have three thoughts. 1) It is horrific that doctors, whose calling is to heal, would do something like this. 2) Thank God they failed."
I'd personally thank Those That Keep Our Oaths, and a government that, having some experience in the matter, treats terrorism as primarily a policing matter, rather than an actual 'holy war' to be fought with a military.
" 3) There is a tyranny in insisting that every time a Muslim commits an evil all other Muslims must denounce it. This assumes that if we don't denounce it we support it, which is a ludicrous assumption. Does every Christian have to denounce every act of terrorism committed by a Christian, such as Timothy McVeigh that Megan mentioned?"
Well, often, they ignore the Christian connections, if they don't take their side: look at Koresh. And Mc Veigh.
"When the IRA was bombing regularly did we demand all Catholics renounce each act of terror as they occurred on a near daily basis?"
Actually, I seem to remember that's exactly what was done. Heck, just being Irish, some'd call you a terrorist if you didn't both repudiate the acts of terror and say this meant how non-Protestants have been treated in Ireland was righteous and OK.
Problematic, but not *solely* directed against Muslims.
Heck, some of these Christians still point at Stalin or the Sandanistas as a reason to say single-payer health insurance is anti-American.
The Swedish report reference? Definition of terrorist attack?
So you condemned the attack on UK citizens and their airports by the koranic doctors bred, born and brainwashed in Islam. Good, now please address the root cause of this conduct i.e. your religion's founder and his and his scribes book of death i.e. the koran.
As noted before, here are some starting points:
Apparently the Muslims on this blog are afraid of Islamic reprisals since they never give any suggestions for changes to the koran. So let us start the process for them.
Part 1 of the "cleansing".
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
An interesting report came out of Sweden a couple months back analysing the past year's worth of terrorist attacks in Europe. Out of several hundred incidents exactly one had been carried out by Muslims.
That doesn't mean that Muslims don't have to do something about extremists and terrorists in our midst. We do. But the world also needs tom maintain some perspective. Muslims are not the only terrorists, or even the majority of terrorists. And we certainly didn't invent terrorism.
As for the plot in England involving the doctors, I have three thoughts. 1) It is horrific that doctors, whose calling is to heal, would do something like this. 2) Thank God they failed. 3) There is a tyranny in insisting that every time a Muslim commits an evil all other Muslims must denounce it. This assumes that if we don't denounce it we support it, which is a ludicrous assumption. Does every Christian have to denounce every act of terrorism committed by a Christian, such as Timothy McVeigh that Megan mentioned? When the IRA was bombing regularly did we demand all Catholics renounce each act of terror as they occurred on a near daily basis? Of course not, because we knew most Catholics abhorred that violence. Muslims in America have made very clear their abhorence of terrorism. We have written statements and signed petitions. We have issued theological explanations why terrorism is completely foreign to Islamic concepts of just war. It seems to me that enough is enough. We do not have to say something everytime some Muslim does something bad. And taht to continue to do so just plays into the notion that somehow unless you say you hate this particular act of violence you condone it, even though you have clearly stated that you condemn all such acts of violence. That overarching statement obviously includes any act taking place before or after the statement has been made.
All Comments (89)
vtwkhsuyx chqagpnd tpbfrd kgqxfwd vxojrlf wvclq crfh
November 19, 2007 11:39 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 19, 2007 11:39
vtwkhsuyx chqagpnd tpbfrd kgqxfwd vxojrlf wvclq crfh
November 19, 2007 11:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on November 19, 2007 11:37
It's a great achievement for Islamic leaders and scholars as well as Newsweek and the Washington post to present this imperative opportunity for inter cultural and global philosophical dialogue. What's important is that by exchanging our ideas and comments regarding inter religious relations and world events that affect our views of each other as fellow human beings. Since the advent of humanity, We strove to make sense of the world we live in and the lives we've experienced. Worldwide curiosities to learn the true nature of life and our universe is an exceptionally rare virtue upon life on Earth. In other words, we're the only known species on the planet who've pursued to unravel these great mysteries and developed written philosophies based upon our understanding of the world around us.
One such philosophy that lasted throughout the ages of humanity is commonly known as religion and spirituality. Ever since our early belief in the Sky God and the God Mother from ancient Pagan times, we vigorously pursued to unravel the truth about our most profound questions. As any educated person would know that religion and their core beliefs or faith have evolved over time. Paganism, Monotheism and Polytheism have been influenced by humanity as these great philosophies have influenced our perceptions and decisions in life over the ages. Over time humanity has embraced diverse religious faiths and spiritual convictions that continue to influence our behavior in our times and most likely beyond.
What's vital for humanity's progress and even survival is to know the true nature of faith itself. To understand the true origins of faith. But most of all, is to accept the truth for whatever it may be. Each one of us will learn the absolute truth once we die. But until that time comes for anyone of us to depart this world, we really don't know the answer to God's existence nor do we have the absolute truth in regards to the true nature of God. Besides if we did possess the truth, there would've been only one religion on Earth with no diversification of any way, shape of form. There would only be one holy scripture written throughout human history.
Considering one's religious faith to be absolute, while considering others to be false would be ethnocentric at best. While collectively searching to unravel the mysteries on nature, life and the universe through sincere reasoning and serious research would be enlightening at its worst. Most importantly, we must accept the fact is that none of us have conclusive evidence to confirm our core beliefs and there's always an immanent change that our most cherished beliefs could be wrong. Our greatest challenge would be to tolerate the truth no matter what it may ultimately be. With such an open mind, we would be able to overcome any future discovery that would contradict our faith regarding the true nature of life, spirituality and divinity.
Humanity does have the ability to achieve such a social achievement. However, it's solely up to humanity and not any other entity or groups of entities to decide our destinies. Each one of us has a choice to make; either hopelessly engaging into meaningless inter cultural conflicts or combine our scientific and cultural gifts to thrive into an enlightened global civilization that could ultimately expand beyond our solar system. The choice is yours, and the time to make it is now!
August 5, 2007 1:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on August 5, 2007 01:23
jessamine- well and reasonably observed
July 17, 2007 12:34 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 17, 2007 00:34
OK, Frank, you say this:
"and yes im indian - a feather indian not a dot indian. that means new mexico not new dehli."
Which tribe taught you this general lack of manners you've shown?
Or should have?
I wouldn't want to say Dineh, cause, that would be ...particularly unseemly of you, I gather.
Kind of wondering if all this stuff you sout is really about what you say it's about.
Well, not wondering.
Asking.
This isn't what this is, is it?
July 11, 2007 10:26 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2007 22:26
As an Australian, who may have a greater degree of objectivity on this subject than some others who have contributed here, I have a few comments to add.
In discussing these issues (ie Islam) Americans do not seem to possess any context for their opinions.
Firstly, although I understand the extreme reaction to 911, it seems that the vast majority of the American population has swallowed the idea that all Muslims are terrorists and that all terrorists are Muslim. The definition of terrorism is to use violence for political gain. What government has not done this? Few governments have done this more than the various American administrations over the past 50 years, both Rebublican and Democrat. American's, and people from all other Western nations, including my own, seem to care little about the mass death and disorder they cause within 3rd world nations but if anything happens to them all must pay. Also, previous to 911, all races were represented within the concept of 'terrorist'. If I had heard the word 'terrorist' prior to Sept 11th 2001 I would have thought of the Irish Republican Army.
I was shocked to see a recent poll which stated that approx 30% of American's couldn't even rememeber in what year 911 happened! I'm sure many of these people have quite passionate opinions on Iraq, even through they may not be able to locate it on a map.
Also, Western non-Muslims are very quick to point out the negative aspects of Islam, and the many commands to commit violent acts. If they are Christians they should think more deeply before they speak. The Bible contains numerous references to attacking others who do not possess the same faith, mostly within the Old Testament e.g. 'Thou shalt not suffer a sorceress to live' and the charming section where God tells his followers to attack a neighbouring tribe and kill everyone, smashing children against the rocks and taking girls young enough to now have 'known a man' as trophies. Oh what a loving God...who commands the killing of people from other religions and the mass rape of young girls. This is Jehovah, the Lord God from the Bible, not Allah.
I am ashamed at this time in history to be a part of Western 'civilisation', to be associated with a population which is composed of such an amazing number of ignorant, bigoted, racists. Let he is without sin throw the first stone.
July 11, 2007 9:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2007 09:24
Soja,
I was not anonymous who posted the "Mopilah Rebellion". I've heard of it but I dont know much, I read the link you sent me.
The British were not in india to save the hindus or spread christianity but to rule and grow their empire. The switch from moslem rule to the british did cause the muslims to loose the upper hand. Most of india + pakistan + bangladesh was under muslim rule when the british arrived, muslims constitued about 40 percent of the population, if india was indeed peaceful during the muslim rule it does not explain the muslim growth in the population. When this growth is extrapolated for another 200 years had the british not ruled india, we can project a muslim population of around 70%.
July 11, 2007 8:44 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2007 08:44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_India
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India
July 11, 2007 5:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2007 05:52
Ross:
I take it that the anonymous who posted "Mopilah Rebellion" on 10 July 2007 at 6:08 AM was you, hence this response is addressed to you.
My profuse apologies for not being aware of the history of the Muslim Rebellion in Kerala in 1921. My bad! India was a full-fledged British colony since 1858, so the quelling of the rebellion was in their role as rulers of the country, not coming to the aid of Hindus in India/Kerala as an outsider.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mappila_Rebellion
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_raj
By the way I wish to note that my comment was directed at the intentional stance of British colonisation, which you seemed to imply (or at least that is the way I interpreted it) was to save the Hindus from Muslims. I had mentioned some time ago on another thread that Indian history does bear witness to Muslim violence in the past. But it is unfair and unproductive not to mention the good Muslim rule brought to India, and to keep eyes focussed only on the bad. India gained its independence in 1947 after two hundred years of British, not Muslim, rule. So the discussion about Muslim rule goes back prior to that. Even the Hindu-Muslim violence one reads about today should be viewed in the context of the whole Muslim population of 138 million. Hindu fundamentalists should take responsibility for their own role in the tragedy. An eye for an eye attitude doesn't work to bring about peace. It never has.
British rule likewise was after all not all good nor all bad and yet Britian and free India parted as friends, not bitter enemies; and we remain friends. Why should innocent Muslims of today have to bear responsibility for wrongs done by some Muslims, rulers or otherwise, in the past?
Thanks once again for reminding me of the Mappila Rebellion in Kerala.
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
July 11, 2007 5:47 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2007 05:47
At least that's what his payhecks say...
July 11, 2007 12:07 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 11, 2007 00:07
"Maybe you should contact Frank Collins. He's a bigoted, ignorant, irrational dilettante too...BUT he's got a knack for it."
And a Doctorate!
July 10, 2007 7:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 19:45
Tim, Tim, Tim...
First of all, citing one's work lends credibilty.
Secondly, there isn't a thing in the non-cut-n-copy part of your post that hasn't already been discussed in these threads. Your generalizing is a clear display of ignorance.
I take it you are not a Christian, Jew, or Muslim since that would make you a blasphemer too.
Why not put a little more effort toward actually learning something, instead of seeking out bigoted and ignorant confrontations.
Maybe you should contact Frank Collins. He's a bigoted, ignorant, irrational dilettante too...BUT he's got a knack for it.
July 10, 2007 7:36 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 19:36
TEHRAN, Iran —
In a rare confirmation, Iran on Tuesday said a man convicted of adultery was stoned to death last week in a village in the northern part of the country, Iran's judiciary spokesman said.
Jafar Kiani was stoned to death in Aghchekand village, 124 miles west of the capital, Tehran, on Thursday, Ali Reza Jamshidi told reporters. It was the first time in years that Iran has confirmed such an execution.
"This verdict was carried out Thursday," Jamshidi told reporters.
Death sentences are carried out in Iran after they are upheld by the Supreme Court. Under Iran's Islamic law, adultery is punishable by stoning...
Jamshidi didn't elaborate on how the stoning was carried out, but under Islamic rulings, a male convict is usually buried up to his waist while a female criminal is buried up to her neck with her hands also buried.
Those carrying out the verdict start throwing stones and rocks at the convict until he or she dies...
Capital offenses in Iran include murder, rape, armed robbery, apostasy, blasphemy, serious drug trafficking, adultery or prostitution, treason and espionage.
End of quote.
All the pagans, all the Jews, and all the Christians who post on this web site are blasphemers in one way or another and so is Ms. Pam. In Iran or under Islamic law you would be stoned to death. Tell me any place in the world where pagans, Christians, Jews are any other group are stoning adulterers and there are laws, like Sharia, that would call for the stoning of blasphemy or apostasy. This only happens in the backward Islamic nations. The literal interpretation of Islam ends with Sharia law and with terror. That is something Pam is advocating and she does not even know it.
July 10, 2007 7:00 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 19:00
hpka bgvzirjew cxid bvuhleynt edkw nbav jyzi
July 10, 2007 2:02 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 14:02
Tufail,
'Allah's Reward for all good people-Not exclusively for Muslims'.
No,completely wrong.It doesnt fit to Islam and Quran.
According to Quran,you should say 'La ilaha illallah',you should worship 150 times in arabic and you should do good deeds,otherwise you cant be 'true believer'.
In islam,there are two kind of men.Muslim and non-muslim(infidel,disbeliever,qafir).If you are not 'sincere muslim',you cant go to the Paradise(Allah Reward) where the teenager girl without breast are waiting you(such as exactly written)
'If only the people of Book had believed(islam) and been righteous(muslim),we should remit their sins from them and admitted them to garden of bliss' 5.65
'who seeks as religion other than islam,it will not be accepted from him,and he will be a loser in the Hereafter' 3.85
'is not there a home in hell for disbeliever?' 29.68
Tufail,
In islam,there is NOT any other 'religion'.Islam is the only Religion,so according to Quran,christianity is not religion and christian is not believer.Christian,Jew,Shintoist,Chinese,Buddist,Hindu etc. are all infidel and disbelievers.
You made a terrible mistake in your article,you say 'the Books(Torah,Psalm,Gospel,Quran)...,No,wrong,death wrong.Torah,Psalm,Gospel are NOT Books,there is only one Book in islam,this is Quran.
Allah hates and curses to non-muslims.
'I(Allah) will cast Fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve(non-muslims)' 8.12
'They do blaspheme who say Allah is christ' 5.72
'They surely disbelieve who say Allah is the third of three(Trinity)' 5.73
These are absolute clear,that means the christian is blasphemer,so how can he/she can benefit from the Allah's Reward ?
2.62 may be considered as one of contradictions in islam and besides,2.62 says 'who believe in Allah(not God).
When I write this article,I hear following news from CNN.
'The Vatican on Tuesday said christian denomination outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ'.
Has this Vatican adopted 'Koranic doctrine'?
July 10, 2007 1:31 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 13:31
Paul:
There is a misconception that all religions seem to feel that their way is 'the ONLY way'. That appears to be true for a lot of them, but not all. Not only do Pagans acknowledge many paths to the same thing, but are of the mindset that there are SUPPOSED to be. And that one way, even our own, is not somehow more or less 'truthful' than others.
You said 'Are chaplains put in place to make soldiers and marines feel that the enemy is different, that somehow the enemy's religion makes them less valuable to God?'
I sure hope not. I was under the impression that chaplains were supposed to give comfort to soldiers when they needed it in a time of crisis, seeing as how war often leads to questioning one's personal faith. I would hope a Pagan chaplain, when one is implemented, would understand that and act accordingly.
July 10, 2007 1:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 13:27
Anonymous,
Touche! Troll Feed withheld.
I realize he is not REALLY a doctor, but that "I get paid like one" comment from a few weeks ago...I just can't let it go! HYSTERICAL!
July 10, 2007 1:08 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 13:08
There is something that is enormously confusing about the issue of military chaplains. The great majority of service members and, thus, chaplains are Christian. It would be difficult to think of a less Christian act than attacking a nation that was not really a threat to one's own nation. Our famously Christian president did just that.
Are chaplains put in place to make soldiers and marines feel that the enemy is different, that somehow the enemy's religion makes them less valuable to God? There have been countless religions over the course of mankind's development. Every one differs from every other, so only one could be completely without error.
Which one is that perfect religion? If it is Christianity, which version? There are Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Roman Catholics, Greek Orthodox, and many others. There are various types of Muslims and Jews, also. It is probable that only a very few people have discovered the "right" religion or that no one has.
Many people are absolutely certain that they know the religious truth. Many children are certain that there is a Santa Claus. Many people believed in an earth-centric universe and in Greek gods who were half human and half deity and who had risen from the dead. Being sure does not make one correct.
July 10, 2007 1:06 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 13:06
Danny:
He's not a doctor. According to him, he gets 'paid' like one. Whatever that means.
Goes after folks who don't agree with him that all Muslims are 'islamic' and out to kill people.
Don't feed the troll.
July 10, 2007 12:30 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 12:30
"apparently you islamics forgot to read the above damands of your koran when you post that we are all the same crap, which you do not believe."
Dr. Frank Collins PhD.,
You must be a genius! You teach Abnormal Psychology...by EXAMPLE! I can't believe I misunderstood your crazy rants, diregard for the English language, and general disoriantation while asserting your advanced credentials.
It's all clear to me now.
Keep up the good work...'r something...Doctor.
July 10, 2007 11:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 11:21
Tufail,
The conduct of the seven Islamic, koranic brainwashed doctors in the UK and the 24/7 butchery of Shiites by Sunnis and vice versa vitiates all of your commentary about "peaceful" and "charitable" Islam.
July 10, 2007 10:06 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 10:06
Moplah rebellion..
July 10, 2007 9:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 09:43
Halozcel
Allah’s Reward for all good people—Not exclusively for Muslims
According to the Koran, facing to any direction or praying in any particular manner does not carry you to Heaven. In other words, rituals without good deeds are useless. According the Koran, what matters is:
“It is not piety that you turn your faces towards the East or the West, but pious are those who believe in God, and the hereafter, the angels, the Books (Torah, Psalm, Gospels, Koran), and the prophets; and those, for the love of God, give of their wealth to kinsmen, the orphans, the indigent, wayfarers, beggars, and for the redemption of slaves; and observe prayers, and pays purification dues, And who honor their pledge when they are committed to a pledge and who have patience in tribulation and adversity, and in time of distress; such are they who are faithful, and such are the venerators.” (Koran 2:177).
According the following verses justice of the Day of Judgment is not based upon “Muslim whims or Christians or Jewish whims,” but is based upon good deeds.
“It is neither dependent on your (Muslim’s) whims nor the whims of the People of the Books (Jews and Christians), but whosever does misdeeds shall be punished for it, and will find no protector or friend apart from God; whoever, whether man or woman, does righteous deeds and is a believer of God will surely enter Paradise. None shall be deprived even an iota of his/her reward.” (Koran 4:123-124).
Moreover, the Koran explicitly condemns those Muslims who pray but do not feed the needy:
“Woe, then, unto those ones whose hearts from their prayer are remote [and] those who wants to be seen and praised, and, withal, deny all assistance to their fellowmen” (Koran 107:4-7]. Same viewpoint is stated in Verse 4:142.
After laying down every mode of conduct for Muslims, the Koran states one of these phrases: “God hears and knows al things,” “for God is well aware of all you do,” and “for God knows well the secrets of your heart.” These phrases are warnings to Muslims that Allah does not shield them from accountability to their actions and they will have retribution for all their misbehavior. In Koranic context, the faith, whether it is Islam, Christianity, Judaism or any faith without good deeds, is of no use on the Day of Judgment. The Koran rhetorically rejects the claim of exclusive salvation by Christians and Jews, and then says that all those who do righteous are rewarded. Contemporary Muslims also claim that the Paradise is only for those who claim to be Muslims. The Koran rejects these claims emphatically in the following verses:
"And they say: 'none shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian.' Those are their vain desires. Say: 'Produce your proof if you are truthful.'. No-whoever submits his whole self to God and is a doer of good will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say: ‘The Christians are not right,’ and the Christians say: The Jews are in the wrong;’ yet both read the scriptures…" [Koran 2:111-113].
The above verse is complemented by the following verses to reject the concept of the exclusive love and reward for Muslims or any one particular faith.
"Every soul will receive its reward by measure of its endeavor." (Koran 20:15)
In this verse, the phrase “every soul” receiving reward negates the contemporary Muslim claim of exclusivity for God’s love and reward unless Muslims make parallel assertion that Christians, Jews, and others do not have souls and Muslims are the only ones with souls.
Another verse states:
"And to all are assigned degree according to the deeds which they have done, and in order that God may recompense the deeds, and no injustice be done to them." (Koran 46:19)
The Koran does not put all “people of the book (Jews and Christians)” in one basket. The Koran graciously states that there are righteous people among the people of the books. The phrase, “People of the Book”, in the Koran means Christians and Jews. Allah would not reject their good deeds for being Jew or Christians. The Koran states:
“They are not all alike. Of the people of the scriptures (Christians and Jews), there is a staunch community who recites the revelations of God in the night, falling prostrate (before Him). They believe in God and the Last Day, enjoin right conduct and forbid indecency, and vie one another in good works. They are righteous. Of the good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; For God knows well those that do right." (Koran 3: 113-115)
Finally, the Koran teaches that all good people of all faiths have nothing to fear from Allah. In the following verse, the good deeds over belief systems are again stressed.
"Those who believe in the Koran and those who follow the Jewish Scriptures, and the Christians and Sabians, and any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." (Koran 2:62)
According the above verses, any who believe in God and live nobly and morally are nothing to fear from God and will be rewarded proportionate to their good and bad deeds.
Catholic Church adopted the above Koranic doctrine only recently in the Second Vatican Council, Lumen Gentium 16, November 21, 1964
"But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place among whom are the Muslims: these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."
All places of worship celebrate God’s name and God protects all of them
God is not worshipped in Mosques alone and it is a Muslim duty to allow and protect all places of worships. “For had it not been God’s repelling some men against others, the monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which God’s name is daily celebrated would have been destroyed. And God will surely help one who helps Him”. (Koran 22:40).
Unfortunately, no Christian Church or Synagogue is safe in contemporary Saudi Arabia, the land, where Prophet preached those words. No religion other than Wohabism of Saudi Arabia can be preached in that land where Prophet preached freedom. I have no reason to doubt that the defenders of freedom of faith, described in the above verse, are America and Americans except the extreme rights among them in our contemporary world even though the civil liberties have eroded recently. America, where people of all faiths as well as people without faith can safely believe and practice, protects and preserves the noble idea of the freedom of faith enshrined in the above verses. I admit such freedom does not exist in many of the contemporary Muslim nations.
July 10, 2007 8:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 08:48
Moplah rebellion..
July 10, 2007 8:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 08:28
Ross, on 5 July 2007 11:05 AM you wrote, "If the British hadn't intervened, the non-Muslim population of India today would be negligible."
Being an Indian-Australian woman with dual citizenship, I must ask you where you got your knowledge of Indian history from. So the British came to India to save the Hindus from being massacred into complete non-existence by Muslims? Islam came to Kerala (the state I hail from) during Prophet Mohammad's lifetime. There are 24.7% Muslims living in Kerala today. As far as I know the history of Kerala, Muslims have lived in peace with Hindus and Muslims and I do not recall that British troops were called to quell the violence of Muslims.
Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia
July 10, 2007 6:08 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 10, 2007 06:08
" ewven as a pagan you know you have never heard the words christian terrorist or protestant terrorist or catholic terrorist-
anywhere."
How bout the BBC from any time during the Thatcher administration? :)
Not exactly the Hibernian lodge, but, really.
What would you expect out of those guys?
None to nice to Pagans, in my experience, though. :)
July 9, 2007 8:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 20:19
islam: a bloody violent religion, full of crazy, fundamentalist, psychotic, deranged followers: the mohammedans!
July 9, 2007 2:19 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 14:19
Jihadist,
In case you missed my previous response to your comments on Sulayman S. Nyang's page,
You apparently are not keeping up with the "singularity commentary". Too much time reinvesting oil/blood profits? It is ironic how Muslim profits from our oil purchases go right back to supporting terror to keep the oil prices high!!!
Anyway:
B16's "new" book is simply the NT rehashed once again. For a better buy, see Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, 1997 (878 pages). The book is "Catholic" approved (imprimatur and Nihil obstat) and more than likely was used by B16 to prep his book (416 pages). Father Brown also reviews the historical Jesus movement in more than two pages.
Another "view from a recent review":
"For this reason, Crossan's new book _God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now_ (2007) represents far more forward-oriented thinking about Christian tradition than does Ratzinger's well-publicized new book. "
July 9, 2007 12:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 12:34
Jihadist,
With the "no escape clauses" in your book of death and with the Malaysian Islamic "police" squads reading your e-mails, no one can determine what you say really has any meaning.
So to reiterate:
It is all about the koran and its authors. When you and her other liberal Muslims face the facts about their book of death and demand corrections, then we will make progress in conquering this koranic cancer.
If it were not for the "bred to kill", koranic crazies, we would need significantly fewer military personnel and therefore significantly fewer chaplains of any religion or pagan cult would be needed.
Jihadist, you should emphasize the eradication of these "bred to kill" crazies in your liberal Islamic commentaries. Until you do, we unbelievers will continue for our own safety to adhere to the following principle:
Gators vs. Muslims-- Gators definitely will kill. With Muslims it depends but with the koran as their operating manual, we cannot trust any of them. The recent conduct of the seven Islamic doctors in Great Britain proves the point
Apparently the Muslims on this blog are afraid of Islamic reprisals since they never give any suggestions for changes to the koran. So let us start the process for them.
Part 1 of the "cleansing".
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans. "
McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.
Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.
Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers. "
McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.
Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.
Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.
July 9, 2007 12:28 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 12:28
Melinda,
Muslims are victims of this cancer called islam, just view this video to see what it does to muslim minds :
*****WARNING********
Please be advised that the images in this video are NOT EASY TO WATCH. They are NOT suitable for children or people with heart conditions. As unfortunate as it is, this brutal and inhumane action is part of the reality in Iran under the rule of the mullahs and we are presenting it here to further expose the atrocities committed by them.
http://www.iran-e-azad.org/stoning/video.html
------------------------------------------------
An unwed m o t h e r was stoned to death after she delivered the baby even though she repented profusely.
Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Book 38, Number 4426:
A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was s t o n e d to d e a t h.
July 9, 2007 4:28 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 04:28
melinda- you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar-
now youve been answered respectfully and energies have been extended on your behalf, even though you have atrocious manners.
from what i can see- what possible motive do you offer any to engage you civilly?
only a fool will argue with a fool.
now i personally am american born- and a muslim- not born that way, but consciously chosen.
your right to express your opinion about my opinion extends to these pages-
but if you are so abrasive- the only effect you have had on me personally is this-
i wont bother to look at your links-
how can you possibly think youre doing anything to address what you consider evil- by insulting the adherents of islam?
i only say this because maybe youre not aware of how counterproductive your statements are.
if you continue to be insulting- well- ill just skip over your posts altogether.
i truly wonder what motivates people sometimes.
July 9, 2007 1:43 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 01:43
jihadist:
Muslims MUST find a way to remove this modern CANCER—this fundamentalist DEATH CULT—that has infected their religion. None of us on the outside can do it for them.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19636920/site/newsweek/
July 9, 2007 12:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 00:23
Ohhhh...Concerned, hope for you yet, looking at statistics, demographics, sociology and economics too in considering at to whether Pagan Chaplains should be allowed in US military.
And what in the world is a "liberal" Muslim? I am a Muslim. Period. Born and bred too. Brainwashed? You wish. Can't stand it eh, for a Muslim to remain happily a Muslim.
Those doctors, living in a country with "freedom of religion". Makes me blush to think one actually got a PhD from Cambridge. Cambridge is the sort of university that sacked Bertrand Russell for his views. That saw the Keynes gay group, that also saw the commie group of Kim Philby as traitors.
You can't stand gays and commies and Muslims. So, Cambridge is a terrible university for all the heretics and mavericks and deviants and radicals that it gave rise to eh? Did you know in the 19th century, the bright young fellows in Cambridge actually thought it trendy to be into Robespierre and the Qur'an?
July 9, 2007 12:18 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 00:18
Ah so:)
This is a lot of fun, reading Americans asking American Muslims (about 6 to 7 million out of 300 million inhabitants of the United States) to do something about the "cancer" in the Muslim world of 1.3 billion adherents.
Anyway, thanks for the reminder of the "cancer" in Islam. Ironically, Muslims do tend to think western norms, values and mores are cancer too.
And here I was also thinking in reading On Faith threads and some panelists here, that some have views that are cancerous to all Americans, and contrary to the Bill of Rights and US Constitution.
And don't forget the "cancer" caused by Islam and Muslims in Latin America miring it in poverty, bad governance and corruption. Don't forget how China, Cuba and North Korea, in following the Qur'an, is not democratic, and oppressing religious sorts too, including Christians.
It is because of Muslims, Islam and the Qur'an that Thailand is under a military regime; the Phillippines is a mess of bad governance and over-population; that Vietnam is still under a communist regime; that Burma is under a military junta, that Fiji has its fourth coup since 1987.
Everyone knows that the trafficking of women and children and drugs, and the sex trade in Thailand, Burma, Loas and Cambodia, the violence of crime in Brazil, the genocide in Rwanda, the HIV/AIDs in Africa, is due to Muslims and the Qur'an.
I am most flattered that Muslims and Islam are simultaneously, the new white men in being blamed for all the ills and sins of the world; and the new blacks in being vilified too.
I am pleased to know that that Muslims in the wider world, is given more power than China, EU and Russia as threats in the current and long-term to the US economically and politically. EU is, after all, going to be Islamic soon and have Shariah law formulated and implemented by EU bureaucrats in Brussels.
I hope for the non-Muslim world in Africa, Asia and Latin America to fully embrace modernisation and individual liberty too.
All the best.
July 9, 2007 12:02 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 9, 2007 00:02
http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.
But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.
There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".
And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!
And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????
July 8, 2007 10:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 22:59
It is all about the koran and its authors. When Pamela and her other liberal Muslims face the facts about their book of death and demand corrections, then we will make progress in conquering this koranic cancer.
July 8, 2007 6:03 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 18:03
Since this whole thread seems to have abandoned the topic of pagan chaplains, I'll contribute a quote I found useful, from a column by Cathy Young in the Chicago Tribune:
"It is true that, in the age of militant Islamic terrorism, it is not very helpful to tell millions of peaceful Muslims that their religion is inherently violent, evil and oppressive. It is equally unhelpful...to deny the obvious: The best hope for peaceful coexistence is for the Islamic world to embrace modernization and individual liberty, not for the West to turn its back on those values."
(Cathy Young is an editor of the libertarian, conservative-leaning magazine "Reason.")
July 8, 2007 2:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 14:23
pamela, i have done research and you have been overwhelmingly silent.
even on this forum to the question "is islam violent" you stated: "let me be very clear the question is exceptionally offensive and borders on religious bigotry."
here's your thread on how satisfied you are in life. no word for your suffering coreligionists.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/2007/05/life_is_good_do_not_post_yet.html
here's your thread where many posters spoke for muslim women facing death. you were silent.
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/2007/06/treading_dangerous_ground.html
i hope you have broken your silence and will confront the CANCER that has its roots in Islam.
July 8, 2007 1:41 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 13:41
Melinda,
Please do some research before you say things like, "Why are you not speaking out for your sisters?" I speak out and act on behalf of my sisters all the time. The situation for many Muslim women is clearly desperate, a result of third world conditions combined with an upsurge of puritanical religiosity. Unfortunately, our ability to effect change in the Muslim world from here is limited, and the ability to effect change from within those countries is even more limited. We do what we can, but the best is to support individuals who are working on the ground there.
Masmoodah Jalal, for instance, who was the woman who ran for president in Afghanistan, has a foundation that focuses on education and health care for Afghani women. I strongly recommend supporting that organization (the Jalal Foundation) if you have the wherewithal.
Similarly I support efforts by international organizations such as Amensty International to put pressure on repressive governments.
July 8, 2007 12:17 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 12:17
if you are PROGRESSIVE -why are you not SPEAKING OUT for your sisters?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlqyDAThrpA&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Kc4dTfC2dE&mode=related&search=
July 8, 2007 10:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 10:37
victoria. your chosen religion has a CANCER that MUST be dealt with.
when did the irish plan to convert or conquer the entire world?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRH9dbMMjLQ&mode=related&search=
as a muslim -do you believe there will be no peace until global sharia is established?
July 8, 2007 8:24 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 08:24
a salaamu alaikum pamela-
you just keep on with your good message-
somehow this got lost in the rush to throw stones
pamelas words-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" We have written statements and signed petitions. We have issued theological explanations why terrorism is completely foreign to Islamic concepts of just war. It seems to me that enough is enough. We do not have to say something everytime some Muslim does something bad. And that to continue to do so just plays into the notion that somehow unless you say you hate this particular act of violence you condone it, even though you have clearly stated that you condemn all such acts of violence. That overarching statement obviously includes any act taking place before or after the statement has been made."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
does anyone really expect every muslim to preface ever utterance with such a denunciation?
how many times must she say it?
mercy, she has expressed sentiments that mirror your own expressed views paganplace
July 8, 2007 1:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 01:55
paganplace i am both irish and was catholic - as a matter of fact i worked in a restaurant for 1 1/2 years where i cooked irish food 6 days a week, and the ancient order of the hibernians met there a couple of times a week, sometimes more-
and at no time ever - in any instance whatsoever- did i- or anyone i know (who were alot of irish catholics) ever get asked to apologize for the terrorist in ireland because we were catholic and irish.
ever
it just didnt ever happen
on the other hand- theres a special on tv right now about muslims against jihad- and its pretty solidly a blnket accusation against any who claim to be religious and muslim-
while massively over dramatizing the issue of the irish- which just didnt exist- didnt happen- never saw any instance- any tv show nothing-
and minimizing the real hostility against muslims that WE CAN SEE ILLUSTRATED ABUNDANTLY RIGHT ON THESE BOARDS-
you are making a false connection based on anecdotal incidence (without even providing one anecdote)
diminishing the persecution others have experienced doesnt quantify the persecutions of others
you say they "often" ignore the christianconnection-
no they always ignore it-
ewven as a pagan you know you have never heard the words christian terrorist or protestant terrorist or catholic terrorist-
anywhere.
even when the irsh were blowing each other up regularly, it was orange and green, north and south-
as my brother used to say, there is far fetched, and further stretched.
July 8, 2007 1:50 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 8, 2007 01:50
McVeigh got the chair. Koresh got incinerated. Neither were good Christians and violated all the teachings of the NT.
Hopefully the koranic crazies in the UK meet the same fate as McVeigh. Unlike McVeigh, these koranic crazies follow the dictates of their "NT", the same dictates being followed 24/7 by analogous koranic crazies around the globe.
Bottom line: The koran has got to be nullified either by reason or by force.
July 7, 2007 8:45 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 7, 2007 20:45
"As for the plot in England involving the doctors, I have three thoughts. 1) It is horrific that doctors, whose calling is to heal, would do something like this. 2) Thank God they failed."
I'd personally thank Those That Keep Our Oaths, and a government that, having some experience in the matter, treats terrorism as primarily a policing matter, rather than an actual 'holy war' to be fought with a military.
" 3) There is a tyranny in insisting that every time a Muslim commits an evil all other Muslims must denounce it. This assumes that if we don't denounce it we support it, which is a ludicrous assumption. Does every Christian have to denounce every act of terrorism committed by a Christian, such as Timothy McVeigh that Megan mentioned?"
Well, often, they ignore the Christian connections, if they don't take their side: look at Koresh. And Mc Veigh.
"When the IRA was bombing regularly did we demand all Catholics renounce each act of terror as they occurred on a near daily basis?"
Actually, I seem to remember that's exactly what was done. Heck, just being Irish, some'd call you a terrorist if you didn't both repudiate the acts of terror and say this meant how non-Protestants have been treated in Ireland was righteous and OK.
Problematic, but not *solely* directed against Muslims.
Heck, some of these Christians still point at Stalin or the Sandanistas as a reason to say single-payer health insurance is anti-American.
July 7, 2007 1:23 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 7, 2007 13:23
Pamela,
The Swedish report reference? Definition of terrorist attack?
So you condemned the attack on UK citizens and their airports by the koranic doctors bred, born and brainwashed in Islam. Good, now please address the root cause of this conduct i.e. your religion's founder and his and his scribes book of death i.e. the koran.
As noted before, here are some starting points:
Apparently the Muslims on this blog are afraid of Islamic reprisals since they never give any suggestions for changes to the koran. So let us start the process for them.
Part 1 of the "cleansing".
"The 77 Branches of Faith is a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true faith (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.
"30 qualities are connected to the heart"
(five at a time)
"1. Belief in Allah"
No problem but "aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc." should be added.
"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."
No problem but evolution and the Big Bang cannot be ignored and the "akas" for Allah should be included.
"3. To believe in the existence of angels."
A major item to delete. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.
"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."
Another major item to delete. There are no books written in Heaven just as there are no angels to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.
Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.
Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.
"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."
Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.
July 7, 2007 11:52 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 7, 2007 11:52
pam girl, they are still watching you and commenting on utube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ESiEHrhpSg&mode=related&search=
لا حولا و لا قوة الا بلله.... لم نسمع عن امراءة أمت المسلمين لا فى عهد رسول الله و لا فى غير عهده صدق القائل.. و كم قارىء للقرأن و القرأن يلعنه
btw, im in no way defending this woman's deeds...she's out of her mind...
July 7, 2007 11:23 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 7, 2007 11:23
Megan,
An interesting report came out of Sweden a couple months back analysing the past year's worth of terrorist attacks in Europe. Out of several hundred incidents exactly one had been carried out by Muslims.
That doesn't mean that Muslims don't have to do something about extremists and terrorists in our midst. We do. But the world also needs tom maintain some perspective. Muslims are not the only terrorists, or even the majority of terrorists. And we certainly didn't invent terrorism.
As for the plot in England involving the doctors, I have three thoughts. 1) It is horrific that doctors, whose calling is to heal, would do something like this. 2) Thank God they failed. 3) There is a tyranny in insisting that every time a Muslim commits an evil all other Muslims must denounce it. This assumes that if we don't denounce it we support it, which is a ludicrous assumption. Does every Christian have to denounce every act of terrorism committed by a Christian, such as Timothy McVeigh that Megan mentioned? When the IRA was bombing regularly did we demand all Catholics renounce each act of terror as they occurred on a near daily basis? Of course not, because we knew most Catholics abhorred that violence. Muslims in America have made very clear their abhorence of terrorism. We have written statements and signed petitions. We have issued theological explanations why terrorism is completely foreign to Islamic concepts of just war. It seems to me that enough is enough. We do not have to say something everytime some Muslim does something bad. And taht to continue to do so just plays into the notion that somehow unless you say you hate this particular act of violence you condone it, even though you have clearly stated that you condemn all such acts of violence. That overarching statement obviously includes any act taking place before or after the statement has been made.
July 7, 2007 11:12 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on July 7, 2007 11:12
Dear Meg