"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit. In July 2005, she became the first woman in centuries to officiate Friday prayers in a mosque when the United Muslim Association of Toronto and the Muslim Canadian Congress invited her to serve as guest imam. (This event followed a number of services, sermons and prayer sessions led by women held in private venues because no mosque agreed to host them.) In February 2006, when the former Grand Mufti of Marseilles visited Toronto, he requested that Taylor lead him in congregational prayer as an unequivocal demonstration of his support for female imams. Taylor has also been active in interfaith dialogue for 20 years, both in local initiatives and speaking at numerous conferences, universities, and churches. She received her MTS from Harvard Divinity School, and writes regularly on spiritual matters and the Islamic faith. She has essays in Nurturing Child and Adolescent Spirituality: Perspectives from the World's Religious Traditions (2006) and the forthcoming The Veil: Women Writers on Its History, Lore, and Politics (2007). She has written hundreds of articles and opinion pieces for newspapers, magazines, and journals, and is an award winning poet.
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Pamela K. Taylor
co-founder, Muslims for Progressive Values
"On Faith" panelist Pamela K. Taylor is co-founder of Muslims for Progressive Values and director of the Islamic Writers Alliance. She is a member of the national board of advisors to the Network of Spiritual Progressives, and served as co-chair of the Progressive Muslim Union for two years. Taylor is a strong supporter of the woman imam movement, which seeks the full participation of Muslim women in every aspect of life, including the pulpit.
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salaams jihadist, i see youve been holding up under fire as always. with grace too.
thanks for the well intended advice liberated-
such aplomb you display- such remarkable tact and control.
and again, since you SO enjoy telling me what i should do- of course ill get right on that.
your advice is always so gentlemanly and politely given-
if only other posters would follow your example of wise and sagely given counsel.
why wont everyone recognize your obviously superior intellect and moral imperative???
its a mystery indeed.
what would i do without your eloquent and compelling commentary?
its really been a struggle limping along before i could access your big brain and heart to give me guidance.
guess im just lucky.
A SALAAMU ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULAHI WA BARAKATU HANUMANIAC YOU JUST KEEP ON KEEPIN ON AND TRY TO MAKE THE BEST OF A BAD SITUATION ( i think that was sly and the famly stone?)
Give up your belief in "pretty wingie talking thingies" and join the world of realism by taking that one profound step. You could join Jihadist in her Global Religious Foundation taking another important step.
And the third step would be coming to grips with the founder of your religion i.e. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" to include "demons of the demented" to the koran but also flying chariots and a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
as the subject is religions that question themselves- ive waited patiently for someone to give examples of other religious traditions that exhort self examination and investigation.
jihadist gives us an example of reason and tolerance in her viewpoint that belies the blanket accusations (too many to number) hurled at muslims in general.
since everyone is expecting her to be responsible for all the actions ofall the muslims-
it is conversely, only fair that all the muslims be judged by her logical and fair-minded responses?
no? judge (well best not to altogether) individuals on their own merit?
what a novel concept.
You do not respond to my posts because you cannot answer the questions without coming to grips with the mythical/militaristic foundations of your religion.
And you claim you cannot by yourself do anything about the koran or the sins of other Muslims. That is not true since individuals like Mother Teresa, Ghandi, and St. Francis took individual action to correct many wrongs. "Mother Julia, Founder of the Global Freedom of Religion Movement" has a certian ring to it. Of course you will have to give up the Islamic requirement in belief in "pretty wingie talking thingies." Fear not, Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen have clipped "Gabes" wings so no harm will come to you.
In case you forgot about the mythical/militaristic foundations of Islam, once again I copy them for your perusal.
Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" to include "demons of the demented" to the koran but also flying chariots and a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
That was a tease about being crucified:). Umm... since 9/11, 85,000 Americans are killed by other Americans. Islam and Muslims has nothing to do with it.
Annoynymous or Anonymouse?
Yeah, I can't get my Rolling Stones song right.
The screamers of God is Great, is of course, asserting God is on their side for political legitimacy. When Muslims go out screaming in the streets that God is Great, then, it is a very clear and dangerous indication that they have no more faith, no confidence, no trust at all in the corrupt and ineffective government of the day, or secular authority and laws, or any other party they opposed, and will fight the aforementioned to the death to restore justice and better governance in their minds. They don't necessarily make better governments once they secured power.
Or to be more open.
Having secured power by the gun, they have to maintain it by the gun and the resort to the same oppressiveness and injustice they fought against. Hence the continued cycle of unending violence. Good governance is held by Muslims to be by consensus and agreement of the community. So, in not compromising, accomodating and resorting to violence in the Middle East (from Palestine to Lebanon to Iraq to Afghanistan), they are all atrocious Muslims in that way.
They all insisted the party they are opposing are unjust and unreasonable. They are very right - all the warring sides engaged in armed conflicts are very unreasonable and unforgiving at this point even thought the majority of the respective populations are very weary and wants peace and security. And of course, third party and third countries overt and covert support sustain the conflicts.
Concerned :)
As I've said before, in another post weeks ago, I get my small time cheap thrills in not responding to your posts.
Interesting you should call it 'Anti-Christian' when I relate stories about how Christians aren't immune to the kind of literalist fundamentalism you seem to insist all Muslims read *their* stuff with, and you simply *laugh* at it and dismiss that it ever happened, apparently, calling it 'Anti-Christian.'
Why should I waste the keystrokes?
And, yes, Frank, I do condemn Islamicist atrocities, as has Jihadist, and you've heard me say it, or should have. I've also heard you refer to a Muslim woman gunned down in America as a 'Murderess:' clearly you can't recognize voices of moderation because you know no moderation, yourself.
Christians in Mexico are selling women into slavery, too, and keeping them there as sex slaves under horrible conditions, *and making them pray*
Do you condemn that, or is it just 'laughable and anti-Christian' to say so, thus really about being a 'jihadist sympathizer?'
This is where hate, us-vs-them thinking, and self-righteousness gets you, Frank, ...unable to evaluate what anyone claiming your own 'side' does. If you want to hold every Muslim responsible for what is done in the name of *their* religion, well, then, turnabout is fair play.
You are an enabler of murder and oppression.
Not to mention an idiot. :)
But, we know that. I think we can see all the scorn and derision you seem to hope to apply to others returned threefold. Gods help you if they decide to take you up on your calling yourself 'pagan' even in attempt at derision. And offer some 'guidance.'
"Well, the man's obviously a literalist, he must mean exactly what he says," :)
Now let's see what you've won....
You see, Frank, you're the fool if you think you're 'fighting' *anything* in this manner, least of all injustice.
The terrorists have already defeated you if they've driven the ideals of America from your heart and mind. They want *followers,* and war and hatred are all *they* have. You're just dumb enough to supply them with the kind of caricatured enemy they love to hate.
If it comes to some big fight, sure, I'll defend America. But *your* world, that's not worth fighting for.
More evidence of a "moderate" and "tolerant" islam or shall we say "mohammedansim". Some tolerance...
"Mohammed Ijaz ul-Haq, Pakistan's religious affairs minister, said Monday of (Salman) Rushdie's knighting that: "The West is accusing Muslims of extremism and terrorism. If someone exploded a bomb on his body he would be right to do so unless the British government apologizes and withdraws the 'sir' title. Ul-Haq insisted Tuesday that he meant only that the award could be used as a justification for suicide attacks...() Pakistan's foreign minister told The Associated Press that Britain should not be surprised by the reaction."
"For them all, it is fundamentally about POLITICS -who gets what, when and how; internal and external pressures and inteference; group and tribal alignments; who is a traitor, who is not in their conflicts on self-determination and rights."
Politics? Then WHAT and WHO inspired the pandemic civil conflict and violence by Muslims? And why do they all scream -ALLAH AKBAR- ?
BTY "When I die, I'll go to heaven: I've spent my time in Hell." Better check your sources.
But never say the words, " I support global freedom of religion ". Without those, Jihadist, et al are simply conservative Muslims in liberal clothing following the hallucinations of an arab fortune teller. Considering the koran's directives, Jihadist and "her" sympatherizers are potential threats to our well-being.
Back to the topic, have any of you ever questioned the foundations of Islam and its "islamics"? The hallucinations, the illiteracy of the fortune teller, the obvious plagiarism, the militaristic and anti-female passages, the call for world domination, the 72 virgins, the state of heaven (spiritual vs. physical), the chariot rides, the required belief in mythical angels, the many sects, the new "fortune tellers", the no-escape clauses?????????????????????
Heh, Well, J, I suppose that the sense of importance goes both was in that regard. People arguing like they could rewrite world religion at a shot instead of dealing with what *can* be dealt with.
And, heck, I'm the one that has to *live* in this country. :)
Gods, J. just looked up at the stars and thought about how far away we really are. :) They aren't all like this, I swear. :)
Relax. I wanted to see their reactions and they are giving it in all their predictability and consistency here. Let them be creative and inventive in their invectives.
They flatter me too much with their name-calling and in demanding that I should be personally answerable to them on everything happening in the Muslim world, on Islam and Muslims and to single-handledly change Islam and Muslims.
Makes me feel more important and powerful than the United Nations' Secretary General and/or the Muftis of all the Muslim states in the world:)
She's right. You think you know what everyone else believes so much better than they do, and I feel like I should be passing out 'cootie shots' or something.
Same old, same old Jihadist!! Same Islamic wishy-wash. Never anything about the 24/7 Sunni/Shiite bloodbath, suicide bombings across the Islamic world, the jailings, the assassinations, the protests/riots about cartoons, and the continued assault on Salman Rushdie. And the root cause of said occurrences, the Islamic Book of Death aka the Koran. Never anything about "cleaning up" this book and never anything about supporting global freedom of religion.
And to rephrase, "The Prophet, as a Messenger, conveyed God that is One and Indivisible should read "The Arab Fortune Teller in a fit of hallucination saw/heard the "angel" Gabriel of Christianic fame and declared the world his, based on the "angelic" AT&T message/promise from God/Allah/Zeus/et al. Death to those that don't believe the "Fortunetell" and his "thingie".
"Asking me about the Middle East situation instead of asking the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghans themselves? Just like me asking Americans on Argentina or France etc."
You are a Muslim. Palestinians, Iraquis, Afghans and you share a belief in the Koran. Uphold or condemn the actions of your coreligionists. If they are terrorists -speak the truth -don't twist words.
Ah yes......... so many Anonymouses on Islam and Muslims here:)
Don't take too well to what I've posted eh, in putting a wee bit more of a non-western Muslim perspective here.
Some observations : -
The same people who says Muslims are wrong in their beliefs are the same people who want Muslims to subscribe to another version of God and religious tenets, except for the atheists who think all believers of God are delusional and should be purged of all religious beliefs.
The same people who insisted on freedom of religion are the same people who would not let Muslims believe what they wanted to and are invariably evangelicals whose notion of freedom of religion is freedom to proselytize. They never call for freedom of beliefs, which would include freedom not to believe.
As for the "fool god" of Islam, well, let God be the judge of who is a fool or otherwise if you are a believer of God. If not, well, I am sure that you have met God face to face to know God is a fool and thus disbelief in God the Fool.
As for Hadiths recorded and quoted, as well as the biographies of the Prophet by classical Muslims scholars and writers, Muslim scholars certainly look at them in a more critical light than non-Muslims who quoted them at length here.
Some non-Muslim posters here seem to want to be "ultra conservative Muslims" on Hadiths, Suras and the Prophet's biographies and in insisting that one can't be a true Muslim if one does not believe all the biographies of the Prophet word for word. Please note that even the physical description of the Prophet in the biographies and Hadiths are contradictory.
The Muslim bigraphers and the Hadith collectors and recorders are, at least, more intellectually honest about the Prophet as a man and never seek to deify him nor brush out his flaws as a human or to redefine him or to edit out dubious and contradictory Hadiths.
The Prophet, as a Messenger, conveyed God that is One and Indivisible. Islam is not about Prophet Muhammad. It is about acknowledging there is a God, believing in God, and surrendering to that belief as a matter of faith, and to be at peace with it.
Muslims have no delusions, illusions or is in denial about the Prophet as a man of his time and of his deeds. It is Muslims who chose to see him as they want to see him, and to see him as he was.
As for "islamics", no Muslim would call himself/herself that. It is Frank Collins who coined that. It is like calling Christians, Christianics.
Secondly, no Muslim would call himself/herself a "moderate" Muslim. It is a term coined by western media to emcompass Muslims who are not extremists or fundamentalists and "fundamentalists", as the term we know it, comes from the US.
No Muslims like to call himself/herself a "liberal" Muslim either. Again, it is a term coined by the west. "Progressive" Muslims is acceptable to define those Muslims who want to move their Muslim community forward, relook the Hadiths and Suras critically in the context of current times and needs.
A terrorist is a terrorist and should be apprehended, charged in court and punished under law accordingly.
Asking me about the Middle East situation instead of asking the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghans themselves? Just like me asking Americans on Argentina or France etc. I may be a Muslim, but I certainly don't have the full experience and knowledge of what the Palestinians, Afghans and Iraqis have and are going through. I don't have the higher moral ground to judge and lecture them on the failures of their leaders.
For them all, it is fundamentally about politics -who gets what, when and how; internal and external pressures and inteference; group and tribal alignments; who is a traitor, who is not in their conflicts on self-determination and rights.
As Mick Jagger sang, "When I die, I'll go to heaven for I've spent my time in Hell." I have been to all those places for humanitarian purposes. Ask them all who is the real cause of their miseries and they will tell you. It it not Judaism, Christianity or Islam that they cited as the cause of their miseries.
I can't say for certain who will go to heaven, who will go to hell. Even a devout and pious bona fide member of the Muslim ulema would not say who will or will not go to heaven, whether they are Muslim or otherwise. God is the final judge.
As for the Trinity of God, it is a core Christian belief and should be respected as such by others.
Maybe what *you* don't get, Frank, is that the world just don't break down that way, all systems, however damaging they may tend to be, aside.
It does not help to declare others 'vile and evil,' ...that only invests them more in staying inside the ore oppressive parts of a given system, because you're essentially making them think the world outside it is base and hostile:
Playing into the very system you deride.
It's not so different from Christianity, that way.
How about if, ...there can be many Gods who aren't 'bad,' even if they aren't *your* particular god?
(A difficulty with talking to monotheists is that you presume that a) Polytheist Gods are worshipped as a 'bunch of True And Only Gods,' as you worship your one or few, and that b) 'My God and religion are the exclusive Gods Of All Good, So Everything Else Must Be Gods of Bad Things.')
What if just *maybe* it all fits together somehow, and we don't *have* to 'Have The One And Only Answer And Bow To Its Mortal Agencies Or Else?'
My Gods aren't 'Sex, Money, and Drugs' as the common defamation goes, Tim.
My Gods are the ones who say, 'Hey, honey, you been Christian once or twice, yourself.'
You think I'm really out to hurt you guys, or myself, for that matter?
Stop vilifying my people. And each other, for that matter. Whatever you say about it, people are getting hurt, and meanwhile, thie poisons are building up.
Peganplace, you once again give me attention and this is something that is to be respected. You, I believe - but could be wrong so don't think I am being presumptuous, recognize that there can be many gods. Anybody can worship just one god. Big deal. Pick a god. Pick sex if you like. How about money. Or maybe drugs. We all hold something in the highest regard (I Hold Christ in the highest regard). Maybe our intellect we hold highest or our open mindedness. Whatever it is we then fashion customs and we make up ideas and we start up worthless rituals and traditions, like the Five Stupid Pillars. All ritual is worthless, the five pillars, the hail Mary's, the bobbing heads, and those dead liturgical services in most Christian churches. Custom and tradition and sacrifice are not where it is at. The true worship of Our Savior is in Spirit and Truth. The rest is dead thinking not free thinking. Paul said: For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Tradition is slavery.
Jesus was the Jewish God in the flesh walking on this earth. Virtually all if not all of the early Christians were Jews who accepted the fact that Jesus was the Messiah who is prophesied in the Bible. The Koran is neither part of the Jewish Bible nor the Christian Bible. The Koran lays down the attributes of Allah and both Christian and Jew will reject the Koran. Why would any Jew or Christian want our God to be polluted by what this Koran represents as God? Just because someone says they worship one God does not mean it is the God of the Old and New Testament. Not unless you want to accept the modifications made by Mohamed. For example, Ismael is Mohamed's key guy and not Isaiah. Both Christians and Jews agree on the same text here but not Mohamed. Here is what our Bible says about Ishmael: He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." I think Mohamed took on Ishmael so that this prophesy could be fulfilled and indeed it has been fulfilled and continues to be so.
"How can you be sure the pagans/Druids, of, say, England of yore don't engage in violence too when they were the majority and primary belief? And surely they build Stonehenge by force too? Those stones comes from over 200 miles away from the site it is now."
Well, I can be sure the Druids didn't do so because Stonehenge was built by *neolithic* people , not Druids.
I ask, *How* would Neolithic people project "'force' over such a wide area as it would take to muster the workforce Neolithic population density and social structure for such a construction, without starving the people to death? With a piece of antler?
Don't think so.
""And I feel no shame in being a Muslim and prostrating myself in prayers in a mosque, in my home or anywhere else possible."
Actually, the point was the common presumption it's merely an act of 'pride' to *not* in any particular form.
"God cannot be define in human terms, but some Muslims do ascribe to God some characteristics understandble in human terms, as per the 99 Names of God. Some Muslim ulema are averse to that practice in making God seem puny and "human"."
Kind of the point. Especially if you define 'God' as exclusively-an-incomprehensible, untouchable, 'Only being,' ...it's a little arrogant to presume some bunch of words are some 'one right way' sanctioned, if not imposed by such a being.
"And by the way, where did a Muslim actually said -'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'? "
Actually, it was quoted out of the Koran somewhere above. All-day discussion. :)
"I've never heard that, and it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell; or delusionals for believing in God. Whatever:). "
Well, I've said I think that's a dumb idea, too. :)
Still the confusion on what Allah (God in Arabic) and One God means?
Here we go again. Judaism and Islam has a similar concept of God. The Christian Trinity of God, is a concept and interpretation of God that Jews and Muslims don't quite share. Both Judaism and Islam is about the Oneness or Unity or Indivisibility of God.
And again, Muslims regard Islam as a continuation of beliefs from Adam to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad. The only difference is that, while Muslims acknowledge and deeply respect, they don't accept the divinity of Jesus and Trinity of God.
Naturally, through the ages, some of the more enthusiastic and passionate Christian writers take on Prophet Muhammad PBUH as a person - shooting down the Messenger so speak, for being heretical in not accepting the Trinity and Divinity of Christ.
I suppose Muslims can be classed as a Unitarian sect.
And Paganplace:)
How can you be sure the pagans/Druids, of, say, England of yore don't engage in violence too when they were the majority and primary belief? And surely they build Stonehenge by force too? Those stones comes from over 200 miles away from the site it is now.
And I feel no shame in being a Muslim and prostrating myself in prayers in a mosque, in my home or anywhere else possible.
God cannot be define in human terms, but some Muslims do ascribe to God some characteristics understandble in human terms, as per the 99 Names of God. Some Muslim ulema are averse to that practice in making God seem puny and "human".
And by the way, where did a Muslim actually said -'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'? I've never heard that, and it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell; or delusionals for believing in God. Whatever:).
Some people don't believe in the Afterlife yet they sure mess up their time in this world!
Anyway, Pam thanks for your much-needed contribution! I just want to add my perspective on the Prophet's denial of his responsibility - it may not be due to doubt, but more humbleness as he couldn't believe that he deserved such an honour. After all humbleness is the anti-thesis to Iblis(Lucifer) who demonstrates pride, and refused to bow down to our father Adam.
Some people don't believe in the Afterlife yet they sure mess up their time in this world!
Anyway, Pam thanks for your much-needed contribution! I just want to add my perspective on the Prophet's denial of his responsibility - it may not be due to doubt, but more humbleness as he couldn't believe that he deserved such an honour. After all humbleness is the anti-thesis to Iblis(Lucifer) who demonstrates pride, and refused to bow down to our father Adam.
Ironically enough, I find the 'Wingie thingies' the *least* distressing thing about these religious traditions. (Ever seen one? They predate monotheism by a far shot.)
Personally, I think it's just a really bad idea to put words in their mouths and call it an 'authority.'
"I do not think this means what you think it means."
For the tenth time: (questions asked and answered to stay on topic)
1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have already put "Abe" on the myth pile along with most of the NT.
2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.
3. Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).
5. Hinduism - (from a Hindu website)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."
6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be very aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.
Forgot to return your blessing of 'Peace,' Gandalf... Way for me to be in a talkative mood when it's stormy out and my connection may go down. :)
There's interesting perspectives on this: frankly, this Pagan's point of view finds it a bit arrogant for people to be claiming they know the 'One And Only God' ...and that that god can be not only defined by human words, but apparently is so small a standing human might not be relatively-small enough.
(That's aside from what these postures *mean to we primates,* of course.)
Certainly it always comes off as a little arrogant when a lot of Christians and Muslims say, 'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'
Yeah, ..insulting. But good enough to be getting on with, I think. We're a little pressed for time on the mundane things.
Also, though, Tim, I think one of the sources of this pernicious violence and conflict is in fact that these respective monotheist traditions believe that everyone in the world *has to be* worshiping the same God, in those limited sorts of terms.
Yeah, you can say it's all the same in the end... thinking you have copyright on the idea, that yours is the 'right' idea, seems to lead to people thinking there's something essentially *different* between people covering themselves in shame and kneeling in rows in a church and covering themselves in shame and prostrating themselves in rows in a mosque, or wherever... never mind, say, dancing (maybe in the nude) around a rock.
Is that about Ultimate Divinity? Or words and customs and ideas we *make?*
To CCNL:
Why do you insist on changing the scriptures? Yes, your point # 1 is true, "all Gods" are the same essentially. But then, it does not have to be "added" to the original scripture as you suggest. And I agree there are aspects to Islam that definitely are objectionable to today's society, and most muslims in the world do not necessarily agree to it. But your so-called cleansing of the scriptures is nothing short of arrogance. Do you really think you are smart enough or are that well-studied in religion that you know what changes should be made and what needs to remain the same?
To Tim:
I cannot speak for muslims, but here's what I think. There is a basic flaw in the sentence: "God of Quran or God of Bible". I strongly believe that it is one and the same God, the One. Religion is but a means, the ultimate goal is God. Different religions are like different roads leading to the common point. You may fight about how the road I am taking is better or is the only one leading to my destination but if you persist, all roads will lead to the same point. Regarding the comment that Bible was corrupted and hence the need of a new scripture (in the form of Quran) is something which I don't agree with at all. And of course, I understand that is what leads to a lot of divisiveness and hence violence and hatred.
Would Mazhar Khan or any other muslim enlighten us on what muslims mean when they say Islam was a religion long before Muhammed?
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Posted on July 6, 2007 03:51
how can it be wrong if i said "i think?"
the question mark invites correction, so thanks for the info.
since thats all you managed to find fault with- (and obviously you tried) i can only conclude you agree with everything else i said.
June 21, 2007 11:17 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 21, 2007 11:17
"( i think that was sly and the famly stone?)"
wrong again, victoria..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqybFXR8qI
June 20, 2007 7:52 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 20, 2007 19:52
salaams jihadist, i see youve been holding up under fire as always. with grace too.
thanks for the well intended advice liberated-
such aplomb you display- such remarkable tact and control.
and again, since you SO enjoy telling me what i should do- of course ill get right on that.
your advice is always so gentlemanly and politely given-
if only other posters would follow your example of wise and sagely given counsel.
why wont everyone recognize your obviously superior intellect and moral imperative???
its a mystery indeed.
what would i do without your eloquent and compelling commentary?
its really been a struggle limping along before i could access your big brain and heart to give me guidance.
guess im just lucky.
A SALAAMU ALAIKUM WA RAHMATULAHI WA BARAKATU HANUMANIAC YOU JUST KEEP ON KEEPIN ON AND TRY TO MAKE THE BEST OF A BAD SITUATION ( i think that was sly and the famly stone?)
June 20, 2007 2:25 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 20, 2007 14:25
Victoria,
Give up your belief in "pretty wingie talking thingies" and join the world of realism by taking that one profound step. You could join Jihadist in her Global Religious Foundation taking another important step.
And the third step would be coming to grips with the founder of your religion i.e. Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" to include "demons of the demented" to the koran but also flying chariots and a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
June 20, 2007 11:57 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 20, 2007 11:57
as the subject is religions that question themselves- ive waited patiently for someone to give examples of other religious traditions that exhort self examination and investigation.
jihadist gives us an example of reason and tolerance in her viewpoint that belies the blanket accusations (too many to number) hurled at muslims in general.
since everyone is expecting her to be responsible for all the actions ofall the muslims-
it is conversely, only fair that all the muslims be judged by her logical and fair-minded responses?
no? judge (well best not to altogether) individuals on their own merit?
what a novel concept.
June 20, 2007 10:27 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 20, 2007 10:27
Jihadist,
You do not respond to my posts because you cannot answer the questions without coming to grips with the mythical/militaristic foundations of your religion.
And you claim you cannot by yourself do anything about the koran or the sins of other Muslims. That is not true since individuals like Mother Teresa, Ghandi, and St. Francis took individual action to correct many wrongs. "Mother Julia, Founder of the Global Freedom of Religion Movement" has a certian ring to it. Of course you will have to give up the Islamic requirement in belief in "pretty wingie talking thingies." Fear not, Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen have clipped "Gabes" wings so no harm will come to you.
In case you forgot about the mythical/militaristic foundations of Islam, once again I copy them for your perusal.
Mohammed, an illiterate, hallucinating Arab had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" to include "demons of the demented" to the koran but also flying chariots and a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
June 19, 2007 11:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 23:33
Frank Collins
That was a tease about being crucified:). Umm... since 9/11, 85,000 Americans are killed by other Americans. Islam and Muslims has nothing to do with it.
Annoynymous or Anonymouse?
Yeah, I can't get my Rolling Stones song right.
The screamers of God is Great, is of course, asserting God is on their side for political legitimacy. When Muslims go out screaming in the streets that God is Great, then, it is a very clear and dangerous indication that they have no more faith, no confidence, no trust at all in the corrupt and ineffective government of the day, or secular authority and laws, or any other party they opposed, and will fight the aforementioned to the death to restore justice and better governance in their minds. They don't necessarily make better governments once they secured power.
Or to be more open.
Having secured power by the gun, they have to maintain it by the gun and the resort to the same oppressiveness and injustice they fought against. Hence the continued cycle of unending violence. Good governance is held by Muslims to be by consensus and agreement of the community. So, in not compromising, accomodating and resorting to violence in the Middle East (from Palestine to Lebanon to Iraq to Afghanistan), they are all atrocious Muslims in that way.
They all insisted the party they are opposing are unjust and unreasonable. They are very right - all the warring sides engaged in armed conflicts are very unreasonable and unforgiving at this point even thought the majority of the respective populations are very weary and wants peace and security. And of course, third party and third countries overt and covert support sustain the conflicts.
Concerned :)
As I've said before, in another post weeks ago, I get my small time cheap thrills in not responding to your posts.
June 19, 2007 7:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 19:35
A Knighthood for Salman Rushdie:
A European Conspiracy to Provoke the Muslim World into another Kind of a Response.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNDOrU92S_k
June 19, 2007 7:27 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 19:27
'Another 'Anti-Christian story.''
Interesting you should call it 'Anti-Christian' when I relate stories about how Christians aren't immune to the kind of literalist fundamentalism you seem to insist all Muslims read *their* stuff with, and you simply *laugh* at it and dismiss that it ever happened, apparently, calling it 'Anti-Christian.'
Why should I waste the keystrokes?
And, yes, Frank, I do condemn Islamicist atrocities, as has Jihadist, and you've heard me say it, or should have. I've also heard you refer to a Muslim woman gunned down in America as a 'Murderess:' clearly you can't recognize voices of moderation because you know no moderation, yourself.
Christians in Mexico are selling women into slavery, too, and keeping them there as sex slaves under horrible conditions, *and making them pray*
Do you condemn that, or is it just 'laughable and anti-Christian' to say so, thus really about being a 'jihadist sympathizer?'
This is where hate, us-vs-them thinking, and self-righteousness gets you, Frank, ...unable to evaluate what anyone claiming your own 'side' does. If you want to hold every Muslim responsible for what is done in the name of *their* religion, well, then, turnabout is fair play.
You are an enabler of murder and oppression.
Not to mention an idiot. :)
But, we know that. I think we can see all the scorn and derision you seem to hope to apply to others returned threefold. Gods help you if they decide to take you up on your calling yourself 'pagan' even in attempt at derision. And offer some 'guidance.'
"Well, the man's obviously a literalist, he must mean exactly what he says," :)
Now let's see what you've won....
You see, Frank, you're the fool if you think you're 'fighting' *anything* in this manner, least of all injustice.
The terrorists have already defeated you if they've driven the ideals of America from your heart and mind. They want *followers,* and war and hatred are all *they* have. You're just dumb enough to supply them with the kind of caricatured enemy they love to hate.
If it comes to some big fight, sure, I'll defend America. But *your* world, that's not worth fighting for.
I'm not even really *in* it.
June 19, 2007 12:46 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 12:46
Excerpt from today's WaPo:
More evidence of a "moderate" and "tolerant" islam or shall we say "mohammedansim". Some tolerance...
"Mohammed Ijaz ul-Haq, Pakistan's religious affairs minister, said Monday of (Salman) Rushdie's knighting that: "The West is accusing Muslims of extremism and terrorism. If someone exploded a bomb on his body he would be right to do so unless the British government apologizes and withdraws the 'sir' title. Ul-Haq insisted Tuesday that he meant only that the award could be used as a justification for suicide attacks...() Pakistan's foreign minister told The Associated Press that Britain should not be surprised by the reaction."
June 19, 2007 12:18 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 12:18
Jihadist writes:
"For them all, it is fundamentally about POLITICS -who gets what, when and how; internal and external pressures and inteference; group and tribal alignments; who is a traitor, who is not in their conflicts on self-determination and rights."
Politics? Then WHAT and WHO inspired the pandemic civil conflict and violence by Muslims? And why do they all scream -ALLAH AKBAR- ?
BTY "When I die, I'll go to heaven: I've spent my time in Hell." Better check your sources.
June 19, 2007 6:55 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 06:55
Make that Jihadist "sympathizers" !!!!!
June 19, 2007 3:21 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 03:21
But never say the words, " I support global freedom of religion ". Without those, Jihadist, et al are simply conservative Muslims in liberal clothing following the hallucinations of an arab fortune teller. Considering the koran's directives, Jihadist and "her" sympatherizers are potential threats to our well-being.
Back to the topic, have any of you ever questioned the foundations of Islam and its "islamics"? The hallucinations, the illiteracy of the fortune teller, the obvious plagiarism, the militaristic and anti-female passages, the call for world domination, the 72 virgins, the state of heaven (spiritual vs. physical), the chariot rides, the required belief in mythical angels, the many sects, the new "fortune tellers", the no-escape clauses?????????????????????
June 19, 2007 2:11 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 02:11
..and Paganplace
.... very Christian, is it not, that I am and should be "crucified" for all the "sins" of Islam and Muslims?
Never mind. All part of On Faith threads' frank and concerned discussions on Islam and Muslims.
Regards
June 19, 2007 1:48 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 01:48
Heh, Well, J, I suppose that the sense of importance goes both was in that regard. People arguing like they could rewrite world religion at a shot instead of dealing with what *can* be dealt with.
And, heck, I'm the one that has to *live* in this country. :)
Gods, J. just looked up at the stars and thought about how far away we really are. :) They aren't all like this, I swear. :)
That's it for me, here, tonight. Peace. :)
June 19, 2007 1:37 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 01:37
Paganplace :)
Relax. I wanted to see their reactions and they are giving it in all their predictability and consistency here. Let them be creative and inventive in their invectives.
They flatter me too much with their name-calling and in demanding that I should be personally answerable to them on everything happening in the Muslim world, on Islam and Muslims and to single-handledly change Islam and Muslims.
Makes me feel more important and powerful than the United Nations' Secretary General and/or the Muftis of all the Muslim states in the world:)
Best regards
June 19, 2007 12:19 AM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 19, 2007 00:19
I mean, come *on,* Frank.
'Fleahadist?'
She's right. You think you know what everyone else believes so much better than they do, and I feel like I should be passing out 'cootie shots' or something.
What is this, second grade?
(why's second grade even *like* that, anyway? )
June 18, 2007 11:24 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 23:24
Twist words?
Big words from an 'anonymous' poster using f'n *schoolyard* insults about anyone whose religion he doesn't like.
June 18, 2007 11:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 23:14
Same old, same old Jihadist!! Same Islamic wishy-wash. Never anything about the 24/7 Sunni/Shiite bloodbath, suicide bombings across the Islamic world, the jailings, the assassinations, the protests/riots about cartoons, and the continued assault on Salman Rushdie. And the root cause of said occurrences, the Islamic Book of Death aka the Koran. Never anything about "cleaning up" this book and never anything about supporting global freedom of religion.
And to rephrase, "The Prophet, as a Messenger, conveyed God that is One and Indivisible should read "The Arab Fortune Teller in a fit of hallucination saw/heard the "angel" Gabriel of Christianic fame and declared the world his, based on the "angelic" AT&T message/promise from God/Allah/Zeus/et al. Death to those that don't believe the "Fortunetell" and his "thingie".
June 18, 2007 11:14 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 23:14
"so many Anonymouses"
Fleahadist:
"Asking me about the Middle East situation instead of asking the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghans themselves? Just like me asking Americans on Argentina or France etc."
You are a Muslim. Palestinians, Iraquis, Afghans and you share a belief in the Koran. Uphold or condemn the actions of your coreligionists. If they are terrorists -speak the truth -don't twist words.
June 18, 2007 11:04 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 23:04
Ah yes......... so many Anonymouses on Islam and Muslims here:)
Don't take too well to what I've posted eh, in putting a wee bit more of a non-western Muslim perspective here.
Some observations : -
The same people who says Muslims are wrong in their beliefs are the same people who want Muslims to subscribe to another version of God and religious tenets, except for the atheists who think all believers of God are delusional and should be purged of all religious beliefs.
The same people who insisted on freedom of religion are the same people who would not let Muslims believe what they wanted to and are invariably evangelicals whose notion of freedom of religion is freedom to proselytize. They never call for freedom of beliefs, which would include freedom not to believe.
As for the "fool god" of Islam, well, let God be the judge of who is a fool or otherwise if you are a believer of God. If not, well, I am sure that you have met God face to face to know God is a fool and thus disbelief in God the Fool.
As for Hadiths recorded and quoted, as well as the biographies of the Prophet by classical Muslims scholars and writers, Muslim scholars certainly look at them in a more critical light than non-Muslims who quoted them at length here.
Some non-Muslim posters here seem to want to be "ultra conservative Muslims" on Hadiths, Suras and the Prophet's biographies and in insisting that one can't be a true Muslim if one does not believe all the biographies of the Prophet word for word. Please note that even the physical description of the Prophet in the biographies and Hadiths are contradictory.
The Muslim bigraphers and the Hadith collectors and recorders are, at least, more intellectually honest about the Prophet as a man and never seek to deify him nor brush out his flaws as a human or to redefine him or to edit out dubious and contradictory Hadiths.
The Prophet, as a Messenger, conveyed God that is One and Indivisible. Islam is not about Prophet Muhammad. It is about acknowledging there is a God, believing in God, and surrendering to that belief as a matter of faith, and to be at peace with it.
Muslims have no delusions, illusions or is in denial about the Prophet as a man of his time and of his deeds. It is Muslims who chose to see him as they want to see him, and to see him as he was.
As for "islamics", no Muslim would call himself/herself that. It is Frank Collins who coined that. It is like calling Christians, Christianics.
Secondly, no Muslim would call himself/herself a "moderate" Muslim. It is a term coined by western media to emcompass Muslims who are not extremists or fundamentalists and "fundamentalists", as the term we know it, comes from the US.
No Muslims like to call himself/herself a "liberal" Muslim either. Again, it is a term coined by the west. "Progressive" Muslims is acceptable to define those Muslims who want to move their Muslim community forward, relook the Hadiths and Suras critically in the context of current times and needs.
A terrorist is a terrorist and should be apprehended, charged in court and punished under law accordingly.
Asking me about the Middle East situation instead of asking the Palestinians, Iraqis and Afghans themselves? Just like me asking Americans on Argentina or France etc. I may be a Muslim, but I certainly don't have the full experience and knowledge of what the Palestinians, Afghans and Iraqis have and are going through. I don't have the higher moral ground to judge and lecture them on the failures of their leaders.
For them all, it is fundamentally about politics -who gets what, when and how; internal and external pressures and inteference; group and tribal alignments; who is a traitor, who is not in their conflicts on self-determination and rights.
As Mick Jagger sang, "When I die, I'll go to heaven for I've spent my time in Hell." I have been to all those places for humanitarian purposes. Ask them all who is the real cause of their miseries and they will tell you. It it not Judaism, Christianity or Islam that they cited as the cause of their miseries.
I can't say for certain who will go to heaven, who will go to hell. Even a devout and pious bona fide member of the Muslim ulema would not say who will or will not go to heaven, whether they are Muslim or otherwise. God is the final judge.
As for the Trinity of God, it is a core Christian belief and should be respected as such by others.
June 18, 2007 10:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 22:32
Maybe what *you* don't get, Frank, is that the world just don't break down that way, all systems, however damaging they may tend to be, aside.
It does not help to declare others 'vile and evil,' ...that only invests them more in staying inside the ore oppressive parts of a given system, because you're essentially making them think the world outside it is base and hostile:
Playing into the very system you deride.
It's not so different from Christianity, that way.
Both have nobler qualities.
What happens next... is up to us. As humans.
June 18, 2007 9:55 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 21:55
Tim.
How about if, ...there can be many Gods who aren't 'bad,' even if they aren't *your* particular god?
(A difficulty with talking to monotheists is that you presume that a) Polytheist Gods are worshipped as a 'bunch of True And Only Gods,' as you worship your one or few, and that b) 'My God and religion are the exclusive Gods Of All Good, So Everything Else Must Be Gods of Bad Things.')
What if just *maybe* it all fits together somehow, and we don't *have* to 'Have The One And Only Answer And Bow To Its Mortal Agencies Or Else?'
My Gods aren't 'Sex, Money, and Drugs' as the common defamation goes, Tim.
My Gods are the ones who say, 'Hey, honey, you been Christian once or twice, yourself.'
You think I'm really out to hurt you guys, or myself, for that matter?
Stop vilifying my people. And each other, for that matter. Whatever you say about it, people are getting hurt, and meanwhile, thie poisons are building up.
June 18, 2007 7:57 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 19:57
"it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell"
Jihadist:
Please comment on the vengeful and indiscriminate Muslim against Muslim violence in Gaza this week.
"Heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell".. Is it any wonder? I'd love to hear you explain what looks like a HELLHOLE to non-Muslims.
June 18, 2007 7:47 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 19:47
Peganplace, you once again give me attention and this is something that is to be respected. You, I believe - but could be wrong so don't think I am being presumptuous, recognize that there can be many gods. Anybody can worship just one god. Big deal. Pick a god. Pick sex if you like. How about money. Or maybe drugs. We all hold something in the highest regard (I Hold Christ in the highest regard). Maybe our intellect we hold highest or our open mindedness. Whatever it is we then fashion customs and we make up ideas and we start up worthless rituals and traditions, like the Five Stupid Pillars. All ritual is worthless, the five pillars, the hail Mary's, the bobbing heads, and those dead liturgical services in most Christian churches. Custom and tradition and sacrifice are not where it is at. The true worship of Our Savior is in Spirit and Truth. The rest is dead thinking not free thinking. Paul said: For freedom Christ has set us free; stand fast therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery. Tradition is slavery.
June 18, 2007 7:40 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 19:40
Jesus was the Jewish God in the flesh walking on this earth. Virtually all if not all of the early Christians were Jews who accepted the fact that Jesus was the Messiah who is prophesied in the Bible. The Koran is neither part of the Jewish Bible nor the Christian Bible. The Koran lays down the attributes of Allah and both Christian and Jew will reject the Koran. Why would any Jew or Christian want our God to be polluted by what this Koran represents as God? Just because someone says they worship one God does not mean it is the God of the Old and New Testament. Not unless you want to accept the modifications made by Mohamed. For example, Ismael is Mohamed's key guy and not Isaiah. Both Christians and Jews agree on the same text here but not Mohamed. Here is what our Bible says about Ishmael: He shall be a wild ass of a man, his hand against every man and every man’s hand against him; and he shall dwell over against all his kinsmen." I think Mohamed took on Ishmael so that this prophesy could be fulfilled and indeed it has been fulfilled and continues to be so.
June 18, 2007 7:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 19:10
Hi, J! Good to see you: On this:
"How can you be sure the pagans/Druids, of, say, England of yore don't engage in violence too when they were the majority and primary belief? And surely they build Stonehenge by force too? Those stones comes from over 200 miles away from the site it is now."
Well, I can be sure the Druids didn't do so because Stonehenge was built by *neolithic* people , not Druids.
I ask, *How* would Neolithic people project "'force' over such a wide area as it would take to muster the workforce Neolithic population density and social structure for such a construction, without starving the people to death? With a piece of antler?
Don't think so.
""And I feel no shame in being a Muslim and prostrating myself in prayers in a mosque, in my home or anywhere else possible."
Actually, the point was the common presumption it's merely an act of 'pride' to *not* in any particular form.
"God cannot be define in human terms, but some Muslims do ascribe to God some characteristics understandble in human terms, as per the 99 Names of God. Some Muslim ulema are averse to that practice in making God seem puny and "human"."
Kind of the point. Especially if you define 'God' as exclusively-an-incomprehensible, untouchable, 'Only being,' ...it's a little arrogant to presume some bunch of words are some 'one right way' sanctioned, if not imposed by such a being.
"And by the way, where did a Muslim actually said -'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'? "
Actually, it was quoted out of the Koran somewhere above. All-day discussion. :)
"I've never heard that, and it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell; or delusionals for believing in God. Whatever:). "
Well, I've said I think that's a dumb idea, too. :)
June 18, 2007 6:51 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 18:51
*spocking an eyebrow.*
Again with the bowing.
Curious.
*bow*
'Child of Adam.'
How many of these are enough for you?
Humble guy? ;)
Namaste. :)
June 18, 2007 6:39 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 18:39
Hello, hello
Still the confusion on what Allah (God in Arabic) and One God means?
Here we go again. Judaism and Islam has a similar concept of God. The Christian Trinity of God, is a concept and interpretation of God that Jews and Muslims don't quite share. Both Judaism and Islam is about the Oneness or Unity or Indivisibility of God.
And again, Muslims regard Islam as a continuation of beliefs from Adam to Moses to Jesus to Muhammad. The only difference is that, while Muslims acknowledge and deeply respect, they don't accept the divinity of Jesus and Trinity of God.
Naturally, through the ages, some of the more enthusiastic and passionate Christian writers take on Prophet Muhammad PBUH as a person - shooting down the Messenger so speak, for being heretical in not accepting the Trinity and Divinity of Christ.
I suppose Muslims can be classed as a Unitarian sect.
And Paganplace:)
How can you be sure the pagans/Druids, of, say, England of yore don't engage in violence too when they were the majority and primary belief? And surely they build Stonehenge by force too? Those stones comes from over 200 miles away from the site it is now.
And I feel no shame in being a Muslim and prostrating myself in prayers in a mosque, in my home or anywhere else possible.
God cannot be define in human terms, but some Muslims do ascribe to God some characteristics understandble in human terms, as per the 99 Names of God. Some Muslim ulema are averse to that practice in making God seem puny and "human".
And by the way, where did a Muslim actually said -'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'? I've never heard that, and it is always non-Muslims telling Muslims they are heretics, pagans, barbarians, etc who will burn in hell; or delusionals for believing in God. Whatever:).
Best regards
June 18, 2007 6:33 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 18:33
Some people don't believe in the Afterlife yet they sure mess up their time in this world!
Anyway, Pam thanks for your much-needed contribution! I just want to add my perspective on the Prophet's denial of his responsibility - it may not be due to doubt, but more humbleness as he couldn't believe that he deserved such an honour. After all humbleness is the anti-thesis to Iblis(Lucifer) who demonstrates pride, and refused to bow down to our father Adam.
June 18, 2007 6:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 18:32
Some people don't believe in the Afterlife yet they sure mess up their time in this world!
Anyway, Pam thanks for your much-needed contribution! I just want to add my perspective on the Prophet's denial of his responsibility - it may not be due to doubt, but more humbleness as he couldn't believe that he deserved such an honour. After all humbleness is the anti-thesis to Iblis(Lucifer) who demonstrates pride, and refused to bow down to our father Adam.
June 18, 2007 6:32 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 18:32
Ironically enough, I find the 'Wingie thingies' the *least* distressing thing about these religious traditions. (Ever seen one? They predate monotheism by a far shot.)
Personally, I think it's just a really bad idea to put words in their mouths and call it an 'authority.'
"I do not think this means what you think it means."
June 18, 2007 6:09 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 18:09
Gandalf and Paganplace,
"We have met religions and found them wanting":
For the tenth time: (questions asked and answered to stay on topic)
1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have already put "Abe" on the myth pile along with most of the NT.
2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.
3. Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.
4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).
5. Hinduism - (from a Hindu website)- "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"
The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."
6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"
Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life.
http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/BUDDHISM/SIDD.HTM
Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be very aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.
See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Jesus for an analysis of Jesus' life to include his illiteracy.
June 18, 2007 5:59 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 17:59
Peace... And cheers. :)
June 18, 2007 5:13 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 17:13
You make a good point Paganplace (smile)
point well taken!!
peace...cheers
June 18, 2007 5:10 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 17:10
*as I cross posts.*
Forgot to return your blessing of 'Peace,' Gandalf... Way for me to be in a talkative mood when it's stormy out and my connection may go down. :)
There's interesting perspectives on this: frankly, this Pagan's point of view finds it a bit arrogant for people to be claiming they know the 'One And Only God' ...and that that god can be not only defined by human words, but apparently is so small a standing human might not be relatively-small enough.
(That's aside from what these postures *mean to we primates,* of course.)
Certainly it always comes off as a little arrogant when a lot of Christians and Muslims say, 'Oh, well, you're just worshiping *our* idea of God in a different way, sooner or later, you'll stop being so stupid.'
Yeah, ..insulting. But good enough to be getting on with, I think. We're a little pressed for time on the mundane things.
June 18, 2007 4:56 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 16:56
And, hi, again, Gandalf. There's some stuff I wrote for you further back up there. :)
June 18, 2007 4:42 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 16:42
Paganplace:
Thanks for the information on paganism...
June 18, 2007 4:38 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 16:38
Also, though, Tim, I think one of the sources of this pernicious violence and conflict is in fact that these respective monotheist traditions believe that everyone in the world *has to be* worshiping the same God, in those limited sorts of terms.
Yeah, you can say it's all the same in the end... thinking you have copyright on the idea, that yours is the 'right' idea, seems to lead to people thinking there's something essentially *different* between people covering themselves in shame and kneeling in rows in a church and covering themselves in shame and prostrating themselves in rows in a mosque, or wherever... never mind, say, dancing (maybe in the nude) around a rock.
Is that about Ultimate Divinity? Or words and customs and ideas we *make?*
June 18, 2007 4:35 PM | Report Offensive Comments
Posted on June 18, 2007 16:35
To CCNL:
Why do you insist on changing the scriptures? Yes, your point # 1 is true, "all Gods" are the same essentially. But then, it does not have to be "added" to the original scripture as you suggest. And I agree there are aspects to Islam that definitely are objectionable to today's society, and most muslims in the world do not necessarily agree to it. But your so-called cleansing of the scriptures is nothing short of arrogance. Do you really think you are smart enough or are that well-studied in religion that you know what changes should be made and what needs to remain the same?
To Tim:
I cannot speak for muslims, but here's what I think. There is a basic flaw in the sentence: "God of Quran or God of Bible". I strongly believe that it is one and the same God, the One. Religion is but a means, the ultimate goal is God. Different religions are like different roads leading to the common point. You may fight about how the road I am taking is better or is the only one leading to my destination but if you persist, all roads will lead to the same point. Regarding the comment that Bible was corrupted and hence the need of a new scripture (in the form of Quran) is something which I don't agree with at all. And of course, I understand that is what leads to a lot of divisiveness and hence violence and hatred.
Would Mazhar Khan or any other muslim enlighten us on what muslims mean when they say Islam was a religion long before Muhammed?
June 18, 2007 4:34 PM | Report Offensive Comments