All Comments (52)

hi! my name is Glock http://buyviagra.bloggcasting.com

smevwtnk cdoquzkt dhcurwlkf ynhirzlxq bulst zudjl stdyaejnu

smevwtnk cdoquzkt dhcurwlkf ynhirzlxq bulst zudjl stdyaejnu

smevwtnk cdoquzkt dhcurwlkf ynhirzlxq bulst zudjl stdyaejnu

svcn ckvuriox atjvxypul jcozwe dbcqx elts xmuct [URL]http://www.mckvuotj.fmjykpxn.com[/URL] tesn yrpgud

svcn ckvuriox atjvxypul jcozwe dbcqx elts xmuct [URL]http://www.mckvuotj.fmjykpxn.com[/URL] tesn yrpgud

htnfw kcpj hefvpj nhryjgp zjeocg lwuhrojng yemdwp agbfrpwxq xemqo

htnfw kcpj hefvpj nhryjgp zjeocg lwuhrojng yemdwp agbfrpwxq xemqo

ntmuz bcdefpg ibeqalg olwxj xnfkcglvu ograncj bwkpy http://www.alwd.nfjk.com

ntmuz bcdefpg ibeqalg olwxj xnfkcglvu ograncj bwkpy http://www.alwd.nfjk.com

ntmuz bcdefpg ibeqalg olwxj xnfkcglvu ograncj bwkpy http://www.alwd.nfjk.com

fyxemr cpkmzhnq kxpnoyrhl whnabxgyv hgya bnoueywh qfgwkcr

fyxemr cpkmzhnq kxpnoyrhl whnabxgyv hgya bnoueywh qfgwkcr

An example of Islamic forgiveness.

If you repent Allah will 'forgive you' but then you will be stoned anyway.

There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried. (Book #017, Hadith #4206) Sahih Muslim translated by Abdul Hamid Siddiqui.

Note how Muhammad told Khalid to 'be gentle' as he stoned the woman. Such is the mercy and forgiveness of Muslims.

Emotional Infidelity by M. Gary Neuman (2001)
by M. Gary Neuman

All of us know that adultery -- sex outside the marriage -- is one of the gravest blows to a marriage as well as a painful rejection for one partner. But you don’t have to have sex with anyone else to be unfaithful. Emotional infidelity is just as -- and at times even more --destructive to your marriage. Couples I counsel are absolutely outraged when I tell them that they could well be committing emotional adultery when they flirt with coworkers, send around funny e-mails to colleagues, or hang out with members of the opposite sex at gatherings. But they are, and so probably are you.

You’re not going to want to hear this, but stopping this kind of relationship is the single most important thing you can do for your marriage. It’s not about where it may lead. It’s about where it has already gone, far from your focus on your marriage. Remember what it is you’ve always wanted from your marriage, and start considering the large, determined commitment that is absolutely necessary to creating a happy marriage.

What’s the harm in a man having a casual friendship with a woman when either is married? Or a married woman having a casual friendship with another man? Surely, every friendship doesn’t lead to an affair. Yet we forget the emotional harm of relating to someone outside the marriage when that same energy can be used to relate to our own spouse. Marriage is about relating to a member of the opposite sex with an intimacy felt with no other.

How Do You Know If You’re Being Unfaithful?

Consider your own personal relationships:

1. When you hear a funny joke or good piece of gossip, do you first tell other colleagues? By the time you get home, have you chewed it all over so much at the office that you don’t feel like telling that joke again to your spouse?

2. Do you discuss all of your work problems (or issues involving volunteer work or other important things you are involved in) so thoroughly with colleagues that you’re all talked out by the time you return home? Do you feel like it would take too long to review and explain the entire issue from scratch to your spouse?

3. Do you go out alone to lunch or after work for drinks with members of the opposite sex?

4. Do you enjoy harmless (by your definition) flirtation with someone of the opposite sex at a cocktail party?

5. Do you believe that getting emotionally excited by flirting with someone of the opposite sex is helpful to your marriage? Do you think it helps educate you as to what you need more of from your spouse? Do you tell yourself that the juice you get from flirting brings more vitality to your marriage?

6. Do you spend as long buying the “right gift” for a colleague of the opposite sex as you do for your own spouse?

7. Do you ride in a car sharing pleasant, personal conversation alone with a member of the opposite sex on the way to meetings or other work-related events?

8. Do you share intimate issues about yourself or marriage with a member of the opposite sex?
If you’re doing any of these things, you’re being emotionally unfaithful to your spouse. You have only so much energy. If you’re spending it with coworkers or outside the home and then getting home and feeling too tired to spend any more on your spouse, that’s emotional infidelity. You’re effectively relocating vital marital energy into the hands of others. Forget about where it might end up. Even if you never touch this other person, you have still used that person to relate to, and in doing so, you relate away from your spouse.

You may be shaking your head and disagreeing. But I’ve spent years helping couples pool their energies toward each other, and it has changed their marriage immediately. Stop all of these outside relationships and bring all your emotional and sexual energy home to your spouse, and you, too, will change your marriage immediately.

Suggested Reading to tackle the sin of adultery preventatively:

Emotional Infidelity by M. Gary Neuman (2001)

http://love.ivillage.com/lnsproblems/lnscheating/0,,fmdx,00.html

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0609608231/ivillagerelation

NOT "Just Friends": Rebuilding Trust and Recovering Your Sanity After Infidelity
by Shirley Glass and Jean Coppock Staeheli

Frank Pittman, Private Lies: Infidelity and the Betrayal of Intimacy (New York: Norton, 1989),

http://www.freshoutlookmag.com/articles/MarchApril05-article4.html

Avoiding Emotional Adultery

by Dennis Rainey

High school chemistry taught me a very valuable lesson: When certain substances come into close contact, they can form a chemical reaction. I proved that one day during my senior year of high school when I dropped a jar full of pure sodium off a bridge into a river and nearly blew up the bridge!

What I've learned since then is that many people don't respect the laws of chemistry any more than I did as a teenager. They mix volatile ingredients without giving much thought to the consequences. I've discovered that many married people don't understand that a chemical reaction can occur with someone other than their mates.
Don't misunderstand me—I'm not just talking about sexual attraction. I'm referring to a reaction of two hearts, the chemistry of two souls.

This is emotional adultery—an intimacy with the opposite sex outside of marriage. Emotional adultery is unfaithfulness of the heart. When two people begin talking of intimate struggles, doubts or feelings, they may be sharing their souls in a way that God intended exclusively for the marriage relationship. Emotional adultery is friendship with the opposite sex that has progressed too far.

I have looked into the eyes of many men and women who have fallen into full-fledged adultery, and what I saw made me nauseous. As I've talked with them, I've discovered that, in most cases, the adulterous relationships started as a casual relationship at work, school, even church.

A husband talks with a female co-worker over coffee and shares some struggles he's experiencing with his wife or kids. She tells of similar problems, and soon the emotions ricochet so rapidly that their hearts ignite and ultimately become fused as one. To those who have experienced it, this bonding seems too real to deny.

You may be converging on a chemical reaction with another person when:

• You've got a need you feel your mate isn't meeting—a need for attention, approval, or affection.

• You find it easier to unwind with someone other than your spouse by dissecting the day's difficulties over lunch, coffee, a ride home…or through E-mail correspondence on the Internet.

• You begin to talk about problems you're having with your spouse.

• You rationalize the "rightness" of this relationship by saying that surely it must be God's will to talk openly and honestly with a fellow Christian.

You look forward to being with this person.

• You wonder what you'd do if you didn't have this friend to talk with.

• You hide the relationship from your mate.
When you find yourself connecting with another person as a substitute, you've started traveling a road that ends too often in adultery and divorce. But how do you protect yourself to keep this from occurring?

First, know your boundaries. Put fences around your heart to protect sacred ground, reserved only for your spouse. Barbara and I are careful to share our deepest feelings, needs, and difficulties only with each other.

Second, realize the power of your eyes. As it has been said, your eyes are the windows to your soul. Pull the shades down if you sense someone is pausing a little too long in front of your windows.

I realize that good eye contact is necessary for effective conversation, but there's a deep type of look that must be reserved for your spouse. Frankly, I don't trust myself.

Some women may think I'm insecure because I don't hold eye contact very long, but I don't trust my sinful nature. I've seen what has happened to others, and I know it could happen to me.

Third, extinguish chemical reactions that have already begun. If a friendship with the opposite sex meets needs that only your mate should be meeting, end it quickly. To stop a chemical reaction, one of the elements must be removed. It may be a painful loss at first, but it isn't nearly as painful as temptation that has given birth to sin.

Years ago, Ruth Senter wrote an incredibly candid article about her friendship with a Christian man she met in a graduate school class. Her struggle and godly response to this temptation were graphically etched in a letter that ended the relationship: "Friendship is always going somewhere unless it's dead," she wrote. "You and I both know where ours is going. When a relationship threatens the stability of commitments we've made to the people we value the most, it can no longer be."

Fourth, beware of isolation in your marriage. One strategy of the enemy is to isolate you from your spouse, especially by tempting you to keep secrets from your mate. Barbara and I both realize the danger of isolation to our marriage. We work hard at bringing things out into the open and discussing them.

Finally, never stop courting your mate. One of the most liberating thoughts I've ever had in my marriage relationship is that I will never stop competing for Barbara's love. As a result of that commitment, I stay much more creative in how I communicate with her emotionally and sexually.

I am well aware that if I start taking her for granted, someone else could walk into her life and catch her at a weak point. My constant goal is to strengthen her and let her know that she is still the woman I decided to carry off to the castle in 1972.

Many people who commit adultery express surprise that it happened; they talk as if they were carried along by an irresistible force of nature. But remember that nobody falls off a cliff if they're standing 40 feet away. Instead, they inch closer and closer to the abyss until they find themselves in danger.

You need to make your marriage relationship such a priority that you don't come anywhere near the edge.

HL

Christianity owes much to the zealous Saul who once persecuted Christians, who then became the passionate Paul, who spread Christianity to the Gentiles. And the risen Jesus did speak to him!

HL

Million thanks for that HL! Even if you as Muslim can see no more than a Prophet in Jesus, it does not matter, as long as you do not fail to see the love and forgiveness that Jesus showed to everyone in His life.

Anonymous:

You wrote: "You are trying to portray Jesus Christ as a deranged man."

I could not do such a thing. I was merely referring to the hullicinating Saul not to my dear Jesus. I would never say such a thing about my beloved Jesus, peace and blessings of God be upon him.

HL

There is a psychological phenonmenon called projection. You are trying to portray Jesus Christ as a deranged man. When Jesus was brought before Pilate, nobody bring any accusation against him except that He claimed to be the Messiah. They were people who were wanted him crucified and would have been only too glad to put Jesus in a bad light. Even Pilate, the worldly Roman leader, was forced to admit that he could find no fault with Jesus.

Why don't you clean up your house, considering this is a thread on Islam, and give some explanations for Mohammad's behaviour that makes sense to those who have seen other models of morality and spirituality?

PBS won't show the following film Islam vs Islamists:

http://www.beliefnet.com/blogs/crunchycon/2007/05/islam-vs-
islamists-controversy.html

HL,
I think you are willfully misrepresenting the verses. I don't think Jesus Christ our Lord was commanding us to auto-amputate.

What is wrong with Roman 10:9? It is merely saying that true confession should be by the heart and mouth - merely saying the words without true belief will not get you salvation.

Next.

This is the teaching of Jesus the Messiah:

Mark 9:43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 44 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life lame, rather than having two feet, to be cast into hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched— 46 where ' Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire— 48 where 'Their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’

And tis is the teaching of deranged man:

Rom. 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Those quotes were by Christians with no ill intentions whatsoever. The problem with you apologists is you try to hang on to and to not let go of accepted ideas even if the overlwhelming evidence proves contrary to what you hold dearly. There are plenty of Christians who still hold the belief that the earth is 6000 years old and the Grand Canyons were a relic of Noah's flood. They quote all kinds of bogus scientists who back their claim. The problem is they are still wrong just the same.

HH
What you’ve written is not the whole story. John 8:1-11 may still be authentic. Criticisms of its authenticity are not quite what you make them out to be.

http://www.tektonics.org/af/adulterypericope.html

The account of the woman caught in adultery (John 7:53-8:11) has a textual history that makes heads spin. Michaels in her commentary on John [146] offers the details: It is not in the earliest manuscripts (with one exception); in those manuscripts where we do find it, it is not found in one place. Some have it at the end of John. Some put it after our John 7:36; one puts it after 7:44. Some have it in Luke, after Luke 21:38.

Let us examine this carefully:

It is not in the earliest manuscripts (with one exception)
- so there is one early manuscript that has John 8:1 -11. Even in those that do not have John 8:1-11 the story is in a different place (see below)

in those manuscripts where we do find it, it is not found in one place. Some have it at the end of John. Some put it after our John 7:36; one puts it after 7:44. Some have it in Luke, after Luke 21:38. – so what? It’s just an editing process. So long as the story is in the earliest manuscripts, regardless of its position, you can’t argue that it was a later addition.

Thus, your evidence that it is inauthentic because it was MISSING from early manuscripts are false. John 8:1-11 was in early manuscripts – just not in the place you expected it.

You might want to acquaint yourself with the early manuscripts that do include John 8:1-11 (though not in the place you expect it to be). http://www.christianforums.com/t2706010-textual-evidence-for-john-81-11.html&page=2

In fact, St Augustine goes to say that John 8:1-11 was struck out from many early Bibles because some ‘weak’ Christians could not believe that Jesus would pardon the sin of adultery.

“This proceeding, however, shocks the minds of some weak believers, or rather unbelievers and enemies of the Christian faith: inasmuch that, after (I suppose) of its giving their wives impunity of sinning, they struck out from their copies of the Gospel this that our Lord did in pardoning the woman taken in adultery: as if He granted leave of sinning, Who said, Go and sin no more! (Saint Augustine, De Conjug. Adult., II:6.).”

Next.

Quasim

You are right about birth of Jesus Christ marking the beginning of a new covenant. Jesus sometimes broke the Sabbath rules (healing on Sabbath etc) to prove that His coming marked a new beginning and He was the Lord of the Sabbath. Jesus forgave sins because He had the power to do so, He was no ordinary human being. Having lived a sinless life, He was crucified, and it was to pay for the sins of mankind. If Jesus had been crucified for His own sins, it would not have been a virtue. If Jesus had been an ordinary man, He could not have atoned for the sins of mankind.

Christians follow the New Testament for it begins with the birth of Jesus Christ. The Old Testament is important only in so far as it tells of how the Jewish people were prepared for the coming of the Messiah and the prophesies regarding Jesus, the golden thread that leads up to Jesus. Let us not forget that although all the Jews did not accept Jesus as their Messiah, the disciples and followers of Jesus in His life time were ALL JEWS. It was after the coming of the Holy Spirit, that the disciples received the command and power to spread the Good News of Jesus to the whole world. That was when the limitations of Jesus in His human body was overcome and the Holy Spirit would work through the disciples beyond the borders of Israel. Ordinary men living in fear would be transformed into powerful and fearless messengers for Christ, and all of them would literally lay down their lives for Jesus in the process of spreading the message of Jesus. So it was ALL Jews who spread the good news of Jesus Christ. In the early days of Christianity, many Christians had to offer their lives for the sake of their faith as well - they preferred to die rather than give up their faith in Jesus.

In the Bible that the vast majority of two billion Christians follow, the incident with the adulteress is mentioned. Jesus forgave the adulteress and asked her to sin no more. Jesus healed the ear of the man whose ears His disciple cut off in anger when they came to arrest Him. Jesus scolded His disciple for using the sword. The teachings of Jesus is summed up in the Sermon on the Mount, Matthew chapters 5-7.

HH,
I realize the ancient Jewish punishment for adultery. As I'm not a Christian it doesn't affect me one way or the other, except that Christian teaching of forgiveness is obviously different from the Muslim teaching on that subject.

One would have thought forgiveness means just that, particularly if coming from a supposed all-powerful merciful compassionate deity. If you claim to be merciful and compassionate, perhaps you might want to display those characteristics once in a while.

I find it peculiar, if not a little sardonic, that Muhammad aka Allah would forgive an adulteress and then proceed to stone her to death. That kind of forgiveness the world can do without.

As for Jesus coming to fulfil the covenant. I think he means that the OT law no longer applied - from then on it was a different ball game. Because of that, you won't find Christians adhering to Jewish laws to the letter. But I'm sure you'll beg to differ.

Qasim

'Qasim,'

Your statemet about Jesus forgiving an adulterous woman is based on a wrong presupposition. A forger and a dishonest scribe added it to the book of John to try to hide the fact that the punishment for adultery is stoning to death in the OT, which is supposed to be the word of God.
Jesus was supposed to have said:

Mat. 5:17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

The Law is forever and ever and unchangeable. Here are some quotes you might want to read:

John 7:53 to John 8:11 describes the story of Jesus and the adulteress. It appears to be a forgery that was not part of the Book of John as it was originally written, but was added later by an unknown person:

The New International Version of the Bible states:

"The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53 - 8:11."

The "Interpreter's One Volume Commentary on the Bible" states:

"7:53-8:11: This passage is omitted or set off in modern editions of the gospel since it does not appear in the oldest and best manuscripts and is apparently a later interpolation. In some manuscripts it occurs after Luke 21:38."

"The New Commentary on the Whole Bible" says:
"This story is not included in the best and earliest manuscripts [of John]. In fact, it is absent from all witnesses earlier than the 9th century, with the exception of a fifth century Greek-Latin manuscript. No Greek church father comments on the passage prior to the 12th century."

Bruce Metzger, author of the "Textual Commentary on the Greek New Testament" writes that the passage is "obviously a piece of oral tradition" and that it "has all the earmarks of historical veracity."

The "Precise Parallel New Testament" states in a footnote:

"The story of the woman caught in adultery is a later insertion here, missing from all early Greek manuscripts. A Western text-type insertion, attested mainly in Old Latin translations, it is found in different places in different manuscripts.: here, or after 7:36 or at the end of this gospel, or after Luke 21:38 or at the end of that gospel."

"The Five Gospels" states:

"The story of the woman caught in the act of adultery...was a 'floating' or 'orphan' story. It is almost certainly not a part of the original text of John, but is a noteworthy tradition nonetheless...While the Fellows [of the Jesus Seminar] agreed that the words did not originate in their present form with Jesus, they nevertheless assigned the words and story to a special category of things they wish Jesus had said and done."

There is general agreement that the verses from John 7:53 to John 8:11 were not written by the author or authors who wrote the rest of the gospel. It was probably based on a story about the life of Jesus that had been often told, and was passed orally down through the centuries. Copyists then inserted it into various gospels. There is little consensus as to exactly when the forgery was inserted:

"The New Commentary on the Whole Bible" asserts that its earliest appearance was in a 5th century CE manuscript which they do not define.
It was present in the version of John that St. Augustine (354-430 CE) used when he wrote his "Tractates on the Gospel of John" on or after 416 CE.

Eusebius "Church History" was written circa 325 CE. He mentions that the story was told by Papias, who wrote circa 115 to 140 CE. Papias had taken the passage from the Gospel of the Hebrews. That gospel is believed to have been written circa 70 to 150 CE. It never made it into the official canon; no copy survived to the present time.

The folowing is a rebuke by Jesus to those who think salvation is by faith:

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments[like Saul did many times], and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Linda Waite and Maggie Gallagher, The Case for Marriage: Why Married People Are Happier, Healthier, and Better Off Financially

Part II on heterosexual marriage:

http://www.catholic.com/library/gay_marriage.asp

It is an urgent cry for reform of mainstream Islam, so that it may join the community of other believers who are free to believe or not believe in any religion they choose.

Jihadist wrote,

"Many posters in On Faith thread do use different "names". But their writing styles is like thumb-prints of their personalities and it shows. I really don't mind."

When one has an open mind and weighs information presented in an objective way, genuine conflict arises. Islam alone as a religion metes out death as punishment for criticing it. Mohammad is not everybody's idea of a spiritual role model. There is no hatred for Muslims, but only caution for a religion that metes out death for criticising it. It goes hand in hand with a desire to understand. Hence the dilemma.

Jihadist,
I don't like my personal details being discussed since we all know that YOU MUSLIMS kill people who expose your religion. You obviously want to know about Ahmed and me since we know Islam from personal experience. I'm not just some college guy who's read up some stuff about Islam. I can quote the Quran and hadiths, sometimes from memory and will go toe to toe with any Muslim in discussion.

Besides, we should be interested in an intellectual discussion - who I am does not matter - it is what I write that should matter.

But we all know Muslims love the ad hominem tactic.

...and by the way Qasim, only Indian Hindus would address Muslims as "you Muslims" or 'you people". Yes, assumptions is based on noticing habits. But of course, like the US army would say, "Assumptions is the mother of all ****ups."

Be well.

Qasim Omar

God self defence. Too long an explanation. A yes or no would suffice perhaps. Not an assumption on my part. Just a simple question posed. And no apology demanded by me nor expected from you on a minor matter. Many posters in On Faith thread do use different "names". But their writing styles is like thumb-prints of their personalities and it shows. I really don't mind.

If you are college kid, it figures. Coming in here either for research, and impress with minute/detailed research. Never mind.

And son, you will grow to accept that fact that one can be as silly as the other. One can make no sense to the other as the other is not to you. And I leave you to figure out why: - Intellectual arrogance? Presumptions? Assumptions? Ignorance? Indifference? We are learning from one another.

Smitty

As always, it is not what people say or is written in a book, but what is actually done. Be it to apologize sincerely, to forgive with alacrity, to repent determinedly, and to move on resolutely.

And son, without the so-called hatred being stated in the Bible, there is certainly no stopping some self-proclaimed devout Christians from expressing "inverted love" towards Muslims.

Ross

Of course Muslims get stoned for this and that. And sometimes, Muslims, like Americans, do get stoned on substances too. Self-stoning is worst eh.

As for gender equality, anyone who tells me that there is real gender equality is talking through his hat. Saying one want equal access to opportunities is more honest and accurate. There are different set of rules for men and women in real life, both apparent and subconscious or ingrained. Just pay attention to it in the home, schools and workplace before going into the Al-Qur'an which, in effect, states the obvious on gender differences.

And boys, it has been fun joshing with all of you.

i have been watching your posts and i have to ask, why do you still defend with lies the conduct we all know to be vile and part of islam?
saying that adultry is not punishabel by death in islam - that just crazy. its like you think that no one knows anything about how islam works and how islamics are applying it in the world today.
when some quote the koran you act like those passages dont exist and say its out of context but you never say what the context is.
isn't it about time that progreessive islamics reject those portions of the koran that preach hate and death and tell the world that only those portions of the koran that desire peace will now be accepted. how much better the world would be if we could add one billion people who want peace and i dont mean the islamic version of peace, which means a world under only islam.

jihadist - i was speaking of the koran. if you want to compare it with other books of christians, jews, hinsu's, etc then go ahead, but the koran is the one that actually sayd to hate jews and christians and forces conversion. that is book for book.

Pamela,

In your hadith the man was forgiven, but in the hadiths in my post both the women were stoned to death. Also in the second hadith the man was saved (from stoning) because his father paid a price, but the woman was stoned to death without anybody hearing her case. What's going on here ?
Different set of rules for men and woman ?

If your prophet was so forgiving why were the woman stoned to death ?

Can you also provide a hadith were the woman was forgiven for committing adultery ?

Stoning to death for adultery
------------------------------

Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Book 38, Number 4426:

A woman belonging to the tribe of Juhaynah (according to the version of Aban) came to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said that she had committed fornication and that she was pregnant. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) called her guardian. Then the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) said to him: Be good to her, and when she bears a child, bring her (to me). When she gave birth to the child, he brought her (to him). The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) gave orders regarding her, and her clothes were tied to her. He then commanded regarding her and she was s t o n e d to d e a t h.

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:

A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.

Pamela,

The line "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to ALLAH's LAWS." proves the stoning was part of allah's punishment.

Jihadist,
You Muslims assume too much, not that it matters anyway. Ahmed is my room-mate at University. I used his computer when he borrowed my laptop for a powerpoint presentation he needed to make in class.

When he returns I will ask Ahmed about Jews and Christians going to Jannah, but I doubt it since it is not the teaching where I came from.

But hey, if you have nothing of value to add except trying to make some spurious point - go ahead.

Thanks Greg,
I see that Jesus forgave the adulteress by not stoning her. Muhammad forgave adulterers by stoning them.

Only a very slight difference in the meaning of 'forgiveness' from each religion.

Qasim

The person that adultery hurts most is the one who has been betrayed and cheated. Considering Jesus gave adultery as ground enough for divorce, it is up to the one who has been cheated to decide whether the relationship can be salvaged or is worth salvaging. What the person who has committed adultery makes out with their conscience and their God is secondary.

In ages past and in traditional societies, exposure of adultery alone was punishment enough for the woman (after all in all cases adultery was possible only if the woman consented). Living for the rest of her life as an object of contempt was like living death that required no further punishment. If the husband decided to send his wife home to her parents, there was very little chance that she would find another man to marry her, if the man with whom she committed adultery wasn't willing to do so.

We live in different times now. In the age of sexual permissiveness, easy divorce and easy remarriage, the only one who suffers is the one who has been cheated. We must seek solutions for such situations at the human level, but killing the adulterer and adultress is not one of them. Fear of punishment in the afterlife does not serve as incentive to virtue in most people, only real love for one's partner in this life does.

So how could Islam or any other religion convince human beings that a lifelong monogamous relationship based on love and fidelity is worth striving for? That is the real challenge and task!

....and May Day, May Day - Happy Labour Day everyone. An off day for many parts of the world. Never mind, I know Americans celebrate Labour Day on another date and no white shoes after Labour Day and all that. Who thought that up? Emily Post?

Imam Pamela Taylor

Adultery? Sex again! Is this a reflection of American obsession with sex and to be guilt free about adultery and such? And concerned about meaningless apologies to be given to the offended and cheated partner? And to ensure there be no repentance re adultery that may breach trust, wound hearts and unsettle the mind?

I suppose I should cut you some slack on this as imams in Muslim countries are talking about safe sex now and the evil of drug abuse - HIV/AIDS etc. Getting to be a major health and social problem.

Janet

Subjugation, cruelty, and exploitation of women in Islam and how it is practiced by the overwhelming majority of Muslims?

I have this wrong notion that that some of my western sisters do subject themselves to unnecesssary self-inflicted pain in getting the latest fashion, dieting to be a size 6 at least so they look good in a bikini and going to self-tanning saloons. And I always wondered why dumb blondes is only applied to women.

Thank God Ayaan Hirsi Ali's father, a Muslim man, let her go to school to learn to read, write and think.

Anonymous

Muslims from Morocco to Indonesia are not really absorbed 24/7 as to whether they will go to heaven or hell. Part of Islamic teaching is that one should never assume one will go to heaven no matter how pious a life one leads. As a matter of fact, I personally find some of my fellow Muslims to be rather cavalier in their personal actions justifying that God is the ultimate judge of them and not the Shariah court kadis, not the civil courts judges, not even their governments.

Adultery and homosexuality happens in Muslims societies. Both are offences. Like all offences, getting caught is punishable. If one can find four credible witnesses to attest that they actually saw the couple in question engaging in the act. More people in Muslim societies are punished for thefts and murders than for adultery or homosexuality.

Smitty

Islam and Muslims full of hate? Of course. Read up more on the On Faith posts and you will see that hatred is not the monopoly of Islam and Muslims. And yes, we Muslims are full of hatred for hypocricy, corruption, unprovoked wars and foreign occupation. And to a lesser degree, many do hate drunks, wasteful gamblers, drug additions and pornography.

And should I kill you for refusing to convert ot Islam? Forced conversion is unacceptable, and when did any Muslim tried to convert you? But of course, we we need a dhimmitude after all, to tax non-Muslims seperately and all that. Hence, forced conversion is economically imprudent then. So, rest easy, we need taxpaying slaves.

Qasim Omar, or is it Hussein Ahmad?

Let me see. American Muslims at about an estimated 6 million, comprising about 2% of the 300 million Americans certainly have a great chance to impose Shariah law in the US and implementing stoning of people who commit adultery. Personally, I don't think that would be good. There will be not stones left on earth after a week. And we have not even started talking about gays, gambling and boozing!

Imam Pamela Taylor is right about non Muslims going to heaven too. As a matter of fact, the worst place in hell is reserved for hypocrites. Of course some Muslims would like all non-believers who gave them hell to go to hell and said so in their interpretations and fatwas.

Since you don't believe in God, heaven and hell, this should not bother you so much, unless you really think the 6 million American Muslims (2%) of the 300 million Americans, will take over US government and implement Shariah laws, which incidentally, more and more Muslim majority countries (save for the usual suspects - Saudi Arabia, Afghanitan) do phase out quietly save for the Islamic Family Law. If you do read up on some of the Islamic Family Laws extant now in Muslim countries, it may surprise you to see how similar they are on US laws on alimony and child support in some cases.

Greg Colman

Thank you for the link. I do read that Vatican link already for quite a while in fact. Muslims regard all are born sinless. Sin is personal, and not one accountable for his or her sin. Personally, like all Muslims, I never really characterize seeking salvation, but to surrender to God's will that there be justice and peace and to pursue it. Of course some Muslims do pursue that by arms and hence the notion of lesser jihad to achieve God's will. The Islamic mindet of God's will is more of what God wants for man to be and do. And we have never stop disputing over what and how to attain it.

Jacob Jozevz

Please write in plain English. You can do that. You write in cyber poetry which seems like gibberish, but in fact were paddings for some of the most cliched comments on faiths and their adherents in some of your posts elsewhere.

It is always more interesting to question that to give a simple declarative, coherent and clear sentence. Come on mon, like you, besides English I have to contend with other languages as well. We both know you are really smart and perceptive but is just fooling around here in practicing free form thoughts unfettered by traditional and conventional thinking.

Dear Jovevz
I fail to see what the mothers of Abraham and Noah have to do with the topic of adultery and forgiveness. Please elucidate.

Pamela and Qasim Omar,
May I bring to your attention the following teaching of the Catholic Church on those who may seek salvation though not belonging to the Catholic Church?

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

I wonder if Islam has the same belief.

Also, Qasim - please remember when Jesus forgave adulterers. He said, “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her” and forgave the adulteress and said to her to "go and sin no more."

John 8:1 - 11

Non-Muslims can go to Islamic heaven? News to me.

The fact that the heavens of other religions are exclusive is irrelevant to me. I'm only showing that Allah only forgives Muslim sinners but he also punishes them in mortal life via Sharia anyway. That is the kind of 'forgiveness' your Allah understands.

It's like saying: I will forgive you but will still stone you to death for adultery.

That kind of forgiveness I do not think much of.

i have no problem with islam thinking that they alone have the keys to heaven, i dont mind that the koran is full of hate of anytone not islamic, or even that they lie all the time. my only problem with islam is their practiced belief that they have the right to force conversions and kill those not islamic. that is the problem.

P.S. I have to say, I find it rather odd that people complain that Islam is exclusive about letting Muslims only into heaven when 1) it's not even true, 2) it is true that many religions preach that their way is the only way, say those that require you to be baptized in order to be saved, or to believe in their savior in order to go to heaven...

Anonymous

It is wrong that only Muslims get to heaven. Please note there are at least two instances in the Qur'an which promise heaven to Christians, Jews, and others.

2:62 VERILY, those who have attained to this faith, as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Christians, and the Sabians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - shall have their reward with their Sustainer; and no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

5:69 for, verily, those who have attained to this faith, as well as those who follow the Jewish faith, and the Sabians, and the Christians - all who believe in God and the Last Day and do righteous deeds - no fear need they have, and neither shall they grieve.

There may be Muslims who say that only Muslims to go heaven, but they are, apparently, ill-informed of what the Qur'an says.

There are two problems with the examples given:

In the first one, what the 'legally punishable offence' is supposed to be has not been mentioned. It is important to note that Mohammad did NOT ask what the legally punishable offence was. So one cannot jump into the conclusion that Mohammad was specifically forgiving adultery. For instance the legally punishable offence could have been theft.

In the second example, it has been the complaint of non-Muslims that all a Muslim has to do is say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah. He will be forgiven his sins," to get to heaven. All who don't believe in Allah and Mohammad are bound for hell, simply for not believing. It would seem that it matters very little what sort of life the Muslim has led. A Muslim has to fear only punishment on earth, if he is caught. As far as entry to heaven is concerned, all is forgiven for saying Allah is the Only one worthy of worship and Mohammad is his only prophet. If the life of Mohammad is the role model for Muslims, then the threshold for virtue is extremely low indeed, at least in comparison to the model of virtue set by the founders of other religions.

Pamela,
Muhammad did stone adulterers. There are many sahih hadiths proving this.

All this proves is that according to Muhammad all Muslims will go to Jannah despite what they have done. But they get punished on earth just the same.

Allah's forgiveness is only for Muslims. A Muslim evil-doer will go to Jannah but a non-Muslim saint goes to hell.

Thanks but no thanks.