All Comments (107)

RDWxoV Cool, bro!

RDWxoV Cool, bro!

RDWxoV Cool, bro!

how can the sun and moon be joint together impossieble

well i surely cant disagee with that-

but i think youre limiting religion to the wrapping- to me islam in particular responds to that universalism- that expansion- and i mean this truly- it takes into account that people will be preoccupied with the wrapping, and sets even rules of engaging each other in that respect- aspects of life that are unpleasant- we share the planet with people i a wide range of spiritual development- where somebody is now - is where we were if were a little ahead of the game-that is what makes us understand and empathize with the and not judge them harshly- even while they judge each other in the harshest and most severe of terms- but it also makes peoples behavior more predictable the closer to animal nature they are, and those a little farther along down the line can recognize tis and give some gentle guidance and that guidance is good- its valuable and wise and applies to all humans-

i look at it like this- there is some little schmucky guy in the bottom of the hole of the world, like at the lowest spiritual levelthere is, i guess someone has to be- the most unloved and untouched human there is- and someone resonates with hi because theyre the 2nd most unloved and alone creature n the universe, and they reach their hand down and grab this little guys hand and they are also reaching their hand up to grasp number 3 ost unloved etc-- and at the top of course would be those closest to god- and the last messenger here was muhammad(pbuh) and also he was the only human given a choice to live or die- and he was longing for his final union with ALLAH (god) and somehow enormously supporting us all is god of course- theres a top and a bottom- a heiarchy i guess but no one really recognizes when theirs is the hand reaching down or when theirs is the hand grasping up for support- just some endless chain of 2 pronged forearms with hands going either way- yes theres an up and a down- they seem like value judgements- years ago i antd to d a painting of buddha and jesus(ata) and muhammad(pbuh) and krishna and moses and it goes on and on having some tea together or something-( i know, i think i was 18 at the time and i thought it was revolutionary- youknow how kids are) the wrapping does have some purpose though-

theres an agreement and accord and a real harmony that only the wrapping can provide sometimes- i wish people were in tune with each other and didnt need wrapping but theres a reason it exists- the anticipation of the gift for instance- or not getting to the gift until you appreciate it enough not to abuse or discard it-

well ive gone on and i talked more thsn i mant to and didnt get to my point,but there is time isnt there?

peace gerry and happy passover even if youre not jewish or of the judeo-christian tradition

Victoria,
nothing what you say actually contradicts my previous post, you may read it again. Each one of us is a "knot" in the huge, cohesive net of mankind, to use another symbol.

Only: The box is too small for the magnificence of the universe and the capacity of the human mind! I am not reducing the box - I am amplifying the content!

The fight is never about content, always about wrappings, to abide by the symbol I used. You even confirmed my stance: You got stuck with the symbol (box), instead of considering the content. Take "vehicle" instead for a symbol of religion, if you want, unless you think that Islam is the only possible vehicle. But then - we touch the question of fundamentalism again...

ive never been a big fan of kants-

humans are not flailing unconnected individuals but fingers on a body- if you as a pinky become damaged in some way, my body should feel it-
there is a unity of purpose and intent that religion provides that no philosopher has equalled-

th basic principle of islam is repsonsibilty- complete responsibilty- so his idea doesnt fit here-
and there is no 'somebody else' guiding anything-

he stays i the realm of the ego with this statement- which is fine for him but doesnt exactly resonate any great or deep virtues-

whose brain would i use if not my own?
its hardly courageous to think- we all can do that-
there is control and desire to maintain control, even when that control is obviously not true-

we all die- fate and life deal many unexpected blows and blessings- there is no way to control it- no matter how much one thinks-

and it comes down to control or deluding yourself that you have control-and acceptance that you dont-
with acceptance comes more wisdom-

just rejcting something isnt supplanting it with ometingmore value- its just hanging onto the illusion that a person is writing their own script- but its clearly not true-

if it were true no one would die or get sick or lose a loved one- everything is an opportunity to test your mettle and grow -

if you are reducing religion to the superficial wrapping of the box- that is what you will perceive-
religion is what is inside the box and it is more universal than i can conceive-
peace

Victoria,

I don't scorn you,
I don't deride you,
I certainly don't give you any recommendation on how you should act in your religion.

But I still am convinced, that your (or anybody serious else's) religion is a VEHICLE (token, symbol) to turn to your inside. Symbolism and rituals are strong human agents, nothing to be derided. Only: It is not necessary to put all the emotions, all the intellectual and philosophical strivings, all love and deliberation, all meditation about oneself and one's connections to others, all awe towards the miraculous nature, into the box of any religion.

The religion, to abide by this picture for a moment, is the box you unwrap diligently. But it is not what is inside the box: Human nature with all the things you mention in your last post.

Instead of agreeing or debating on the content (the complex human nature), people fight over the colour of the parcel, with all the gruesome consequences we see in the world. The content of the parcel, in your case, would be the fervor, the seriousness, the compassion etc. Islam, however, would be your parcel, Christianity other people's parcel. You could wrap your wonderful contents also in other parcels, or just leave it unwrapped, as I do as a person who does not subscribe to such a parcel, or vehicle, to use a different symbol. In a serious strife for insight and knowledge, I regard religion as a superfluous and even dangerous accidental, because it takes the focus away from the real content of the box, it mistakes the wrapping for the content. And if this is not seen, the fight over the colour of this parcel becomes really infantile, immature, as Kant, one of the main philosophers of enlightenment stated. I repeat the translation of a Kant phrase I offered in the "Why is atheism...." thread.

"Enlightenment is the emancipation of Man from his immaturity, for which he himself is responsible. Immaturity is the incapability to use one's reason WITHOUT THE GUIDANCE OF SOMEBODY ELSE. The responsability for this immaturity is grounded in the fact that it is not derived from lack of intelligence, but from lack of resolve and courage to use one's reason without the guidance of somebody else. Sapere aude! Have the courage to use your own brain!"

Your other points about fundamentalism are not very convincing to me, but we might leave it at that, because the above is more important.

i dont know if anyone ever bothers to talk to you about it in a real way gerry- but prayer is the way i approach my conscience and the deepest inside part of me- the core of what is me and honest and real-
and it is an active giving- giving of love and self and it is also connecting- if you believe connection to god is a fantasy- it is unbearable for me to live without it- it is a raw aching separation a real anxiety and a feeling of incompleteness - of floating of being an alien in my own world- of not trying hard enough reaching and digging way in and through and out and in again- no amount of derision or scorn or skepticism seems to really touch it- others dibelief doesnt weaken or strengthen it- its not even attached so much to religion but that is the form i discipline myself in it- i need a model to emulate and guide through their actions as i am insufficiently connected on my own- Muhammad(pbuh) is the realest and most genuine human the trustworthy ne- whose example never ceases inspiring me- without prayer and the repeated to familiarity schedule of consciously reconnecting even when im tired or lazy or sad- if i dont pray i feel as if i havent tried enough and put n enough effort into my soul- that is it my soul work added to my day work and emotional work and physical and relational and etc...etc...work

ok- it is what it is

peace gerry

not everyone looks to religion as an escapist fantasy to fight over though-
``````````````````````````````````
fun·da·men·tal·ism (fŭn'də-měn'tl-ĭz'əm)

1. A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
2.
1. often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
2. Adherence to the theology of this movement.
````````````````````````````````````````

well no- through honest self analysis i am not a fundamentalist- at least in the literal sense- certainly not in the popular vernacular-

i especially react with distaste to this aspect-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

i have a definite tendency towards flexibilty and leniency and no strong feelings about secualarism one way or another- and i hope i am

this statement of yours-
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Either you subscribe to the fundamentals of your "belief" or you don't.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
i find oddly restrictive and rigid and absolutist itself-

so maybe if you were personally religious- this is how you would approach religion-

however- notwithstanding your judgement of how religious people should be religious-

to state that one tries to "appear more human"
( a distinctly dishonest and duplicitous way to conduct oneself) it is beyond your range of appropriate or respectful conversation to state that one is intellectually or religiously dishonest because they dont fit into your paradigm of what a religious should be.

that is not necessary and superfluous to your point.

All religions are created by people's always immensely rich fantasies (often attached to a given historical occasion) as a replacement for the blank spots in human knowledge. Fantasy is, and always was, independent of any knowledge. Fantasy is the sibling of faith.

Instead of admitting the blank spots, the most colorful and weird details of those fantasies are discussed and fought over (gods, demons, devils, hell, heaven - religions). To me as an outsider, I observe people killing eachother over the question if Cinderella's shoe lace is black or brown, and nothing more serious.

And Victoria, "fundamentalism" is, by definition, the essence of all of these fairy tales. Anybody who takes them seriously, including you, is a fundamentalist (fundamental = pertaining to the basis of something). You cannot leave the basis, the fundamentals, in order to appear more "human" than the "fundamentalists". Either you subscribe to the fundamentals of your "belief" or you don't. You may be a charming and compassionate person (as so many atheists are I know), but religiously and intellectually this attitude is utterly dishonest.

The Christian Madrasses (Regent University etc.) spout the same poison into young brains as the Jewish and Muslim religious schools: They take away the "god-given" (excuse me!) gift of independent thinking, which is the only basis of human dignity. We see "the land of the free" (and much of the rest of the world) degenerating into a system of power grabbing through the venom of superstition, fear and hatred. The power-inebriated figures like Robertson and his ilk have the same value, and, alas, the same effect as the Chomeinis, the Ahmadinedschads and all the rest of the religiously "transformed" (to remain polite!) priesthood of this so slowly developing mankind.

very nicely expressed christy

Adam:

Following the hijra (Muhammad's migration to Madinah), tribal factions including the Jews asked Muhammad to be a moderator for all the tribes of Yathrib (Madinah), because at that time all of the tribes were fighting with one another. As a result, he drafted the Saheefat al Madinah, which stated, among other things:
a) Jews may profess their own religion and Muslims theirs
b) If either Jews or Muslims are attacked by a third party, each shall come to the defense of the other
c) The two parties shall interact with each other based on righteousness and shall hold counsel with one another

This seems like fair treatment thus far. Having said that, as far as I know (and I'm *not* an expert), the tables did turn after Jewish elders in Madinah began to stand up to Muhammad. After the battle of Trench, I think alot of Banu Quraiza were indeed killed and otherwise attacked. And after the battles of Uhud and Badr, the Jews (B. Qainuqa and B. Nadir) were accused of treachery, and, as a result, barred from Madinah. Accounts of what exactly transpired are mixed depending on the source. One popular oft-quoted account of Muhammad's dealings with the Yathrib Jews allegedly gathered the information from descendants of the Quraiza (Jewish tribe), and Muslim and non-Muslim scholars have called the credibility of these accounts into question as they believe the stories have become very exaggerated.

As far as I know though, yes, violence against Yathrib Jews did occur, though I don't know if the words 'genocide' and 'ethinic cleansing' are accurate depictions.

Still, I'd argue that what you are talking about is more relevant to a discussion of political or Arab/Jewish history, not a discussion on whether or not Islam is a beautiful religion. And I did say I think all religions/cultures have a 'dark side'.

Again, I'm not an expert, but I think you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. I'm perfectly aware that there are some less-than-beautiful parts of Islamic history, as is also the case with the history of all religions. Horrible acts have been committed in the name of every religion, by people and against people of every religion.

If you want to hate Muslims, you're unfortunately going to look for supporting reasons to do so and you're going to disregard any information that contradicts what you hold to be true. I, personally, tend to look at a religion based on the people faithfully practicing it. And by that I mean the vast majority of people, not a few fundamentalists who make the news (all religions have those).

As for the quote you mentioned, I'll only say that alot of Qur'anic passages are taken out of context because they ignore the passages before and after them, and do not disclose the topic in which they occur. I, personally, am not familiar with that verse so I can't comment other than to say sure, that isn't a nice verse. But since I've read the Qur'an and I know that the overwhelming majority of it has a message of peace and tolerance, I tend to reserve judgement when I read verses like that until I can research the context because often that explains alot. Does that mean I can guarantee you there is a good explanation for this verse which seems to encourage violence? No.

But if you had the intention of understanding Islam has a whole and Muslims as a people, you wouldn't be quoting tribal skirmishes that occurred 1400 years ago. With all due respect, there are so many more meaningful and noteworthy things to talk about.

Victoria and Christy Hoover,
Did or did not Muhammad institute the first pogrom of Jews in history? Did he or did not commit genocide on the B. Qurayza? Did he or did not not commit ethnic cleansing on the B. Khaibar? Did he or did he not kill the men of the B. Mustaliq and enslave the women and children? Did he or did he not enslave the women and children of the Jews of Khaibar after killing the menfolk?

How can you say Islam is a beautiful religion?

Is this beautiful?

"Kill those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. "

I don't think so.

It's always disappointing to see people putting so much energy into discrediting Islam and painting it in such negative light. Anecdotal evidence (which is the weakest kind) is always used in an attempt to show what a horrible religion Islam is, may God help us.

Fortunately, Muslims won't lose sleep over this because anyone who has actually read the Qur'an and studied it with the intention of truly comprehending it can rest assured that Islam is a beautiful religion. Like Eboo Patel said in his On Faith post regarding discrimation against Muslims in the U.S., every religion/culture has it's 'dark side'. The acts that have been committed in the name of Christianity (the Crusades, as a starting example) are nothing short of heinous.

I really don't understand what anyone has to gain in spreading hate against Islam. But I think respected Muslim scholars such as Imam Zaid Shakir and Sheikh Hamza Yusuf are good examples to follow in that they always respond from the Islamic perspective with dignity and graceful intelligence, not further hate.

As to the actual topic at hand, I believe all 'mainstream' religions have provided an end-of-days scenario for their followers. This either lends credibility to all of them that there will indeed be some sort of judgement day, or it is simply a common trait that an organized religion will want its followers to believe that there is an ultimate, eternal reason to follow the rules and be a good person. Wa allahu alam (and God knows best).

During the reign of the Prophet in the city/state of Medina early 7th century, every one was a full citizen with full civic and religious rights: the new Muslims, Christians, the Jews and the Pagans of Arabia. The Quran states unequivocally that " No Compulsion in Religion.")The Prophet who had just established the first Islamic city/state in Medina, had signed a treaty with-among others-the Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah-to defend the new state and where the treaty stipulated that the members of this tribe being citizens of the new Islamic city-state agreed never to ally themselves with the enemies of the infant Islamic state nor to carry arms against it in exchange for granting them-the Jewish tribe- the aforementioned full citizenship rights including guarantying their protection and security. However the Jewish tribe conspired with enemies of the Islamic state and committed treason, treachery and violated the treaty. The Islamic state, lead by the Prophet defatted the aggressors on the battlefield; thereafter the Prophet and the leaders of the Jewish tribe mutually agreed to appointing an acceptable and neutral arbitrator/Judge to rule on the violation of the treaty which the Jewish tribe violated and the Judge ruled that the Jewish tribe was guilty of both joint military aggression with the enemies of the infant state as well as treason as they were citizen of Islamic state. The judge ordered the death penalty to be carried out against the treacherous members of the tribe who committed treason and aggression-as any state would do in self-defense. The numbers of those deserving the death penalty is exaggerated by Jewish sources as usual.

Asim - The Quran states unequivocally that " No Compulsion in Religion.")

Muhammad made that verse up when he exiled the Jews of Medinah. It was the custom of those days that the Arabs would bring their children up as Jews if they were fostered to Jewish families.

When Muhammad exiled the Jews, the Muslim Arabs were worried that their children would be exiled too, so Muhammad placated them with yet another blatantly situational self-serving verse saying that there is no compulsion in religion - meaning that the children of the Ansar (i.e. Medinan followers of Muhammad) who were brought up as Jews did not have to give up their religion when their foster families were exiled from Medinah for failing to accept Muhammad's self-proclaimed prophethood.

However, we do know that there is compulsion in religion since Muhammad told his followers to kill any Muslims who changed his religion and of course, the infamous chapter 9 of his diabolical quran where he told his followers in no uncertain terms to 'kill the disbelievers' - see surah 9:29.

How can one kill apostates and disbelievers and yet claim that there is 'no compulsion in religion'?

As-salaam alaikum,
Ka'ab ibn Ashraf

PS: I was murdered on Muhammad's orders for writing a poem denigrating him.

Fact that over the border in Canada the Muslims tried to implement sharia law is disturbing to say the least. It shows a great disrespect and an unwillingness to integrate into our Western secular societies such that one wonders why Muslims want to live in the West. Or maybe they were under the impression that Western societies will accept sharia, just like Islamic countries will accept Christian laws.

Some things one shouldn't even ask for by asking it leaves a sour taste that lingers. What next? Hindus asking for Hindu laws? Buddhists asking for Buddhist laws? Or is it only Muslims who ask for sharia laws in the Western secular countries they voluntarily migrated to, knowing full well (or so they should) that they are not Muslim non-sharia countries with Western secular traditions practising Western secular laws with a Christian tradition.

Perhaps it's just me but that really gets me wondering if Muslims have any place in Western secular societies. If Muslim want replicas of their Islamic home countries one wonders they they left them in the first place.

Victoria,
"Joseph -- Actually, I find American law far more compliant with shariah than Saudi law, as do most Muslims who live here."

Huh? You mean we chop the hands of thieves in America? Which state does that?

You mean we allow polygamy in America? Which state allows that?

Which state allows child marriages?

Which state allows women to inherit only half of men?

I'm not sure I understand how you can say what you did. American law is no where like Sharia - they are essential opposite in tradition and effect.

Salaams Pamela and thanks-
CTCNL has been led to countless links denouncing violence by muslims and endless responses differentiating political motive and religiously motivated actions.
This is is curious litle obsession and he repeats the same thing even after being amply repsonded to- presumably to give the impression to other viewers that there is no reasonable response to his accusations.

I think many people have already reognized that-

thanks for being one of the only panelists that is so responsive to what happens in your blog-

i always am edified by your comments.
peace

BC -- thanks for the comment. Sometimes it is rather disheartening to read the same garbage over and over again, with no acknowledgement or recognition that you've responded to those points, and would like the conversation to move forward not just repeat the same thing over and over. It reminds me of talking with my two year olds (back when they were two), "I want to go to the park." "It's raining, we can go to the library or the indoor playground." "I want to to go to the park." "We'll get all wet and muddy if we go to the park. How about the library or the playground?" "Park!" "I don't want you to catch a cold, library or playground?" Park! Park, park, park, park, park, park!!"

Gerry -- as for that German judge, Muslims all over the world are aghast at her ruling. First, the verse in question cannot be used to justify domestic violence. Even if you agree with the most pro-force interpretation (which I don't of course), there is a requirement of at least a night between the provocation and the resort to physical methods of expressing disapproval. That is not a pattern that domestic violence takes.

Second, one country, one law. If a particular law is good for me, then it is good for all citizens, and if it is bad for me, then it is bad for all citizens. We cannot go about creating second class citizens that do not have access to equal rights, liberties and protections, or who have access to more rights, liberties and protections than anyone else.

Third, cultural relevatism has to be rejected, at least in its extreme forms. I've said before, your rights end at the tip of my nose, so too your right to your culture ends at the tip of my nose. When a culture justifies/accepts physical harm of individuals, female or male, that is where we have to draw the line of tolerance.

Pablo -- hahaha... or was that not a joke. I actually believe that human communication is quite often human mis-communication. Take the word "love," what I mean, what I'm feeling, what complex of feelings I'm talking about is probably quite different than what you (or someone else) means when they use the word "love." That doesn't mean there is no point in talking about love, or saying, "I love you," but it does behoove us to remembe that might mean anything from, "I lust after you," to "I'd walk over burning coals for you."

So too with religion. In fact, I would argue that religions like Islam have to be open to multiple interpretations because 1) they attempt to address communities spanning different continents and eras, 2) they attempt to fulfill the spiritual needs of a hugely diverse population. We each have our own path to the Divine... some are mystics, some puritans, some asetics, some respond to legal/ritual frameworks, some respond to spirituality. Any religious text that hopes to be meaningful to more than a single subset of humanity has to be able to be interpreted in various ways in order to accomodate that diverity in human experience of the Divine.

At the same time, there are clearly limits to interpretation. Just as "love" cannot encompass loathing, so too there are interpretations that do clear violence to the text. Most of the anti-Islam posting on forums such as this are in fact among those that do clear violence to the text.

Deb -- maybe the problem lies in your premise... that Islam is against freedom of religion... I mean, that would be the obvious explanation for how an American woman who was raised to love freedom of religion (and I was and I do) could convert (and there are quite a few of us... I think the count is around 1 million or so.)

Asim --

There is a huge difference between a certain group of Christians committing a horrible crime, and the central figure of a religion carrying out whatever acts he carried out. We can argue about whether the Prophet (or anyone, say modern America in the Rosenberg case) was justified in punishing treason with death, or even whether the event actually happened, but we cannot deny that his actions are normative while those of the Serbians are not. That is, for huge portions of the Muslim world the Prophet defines what is and is not Islamic, while the Serbians have no such authority, and indeed, their actions would be rejected as un-Christian and viewed with horror by most Christians.

We have to compare apples with apples, not pull the worst of what some adherents of some religion have done, and compare it to normative beliefs of another.

As for a resource for searching the Qur'an -- I like Hanna Cassis's Concordance of the Qur'an. It is organized like an Arabic dictionary, by root, and I find it quite easy to use rather. Much easier than trying to guess, was "rahma" translated as mercy, compassion, generosity, kindness, etc, etc, etc. It's a bit pricey, but very worthwhile.

Online, this is an invaluable resource: http://www.islamicity.com/QuranSearch/ with various modes to search. Its counterpart for hadith is: http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/searchhadith.html

On a slightly more accessible level is "The Essence of Islam, According to the Qur'an and the Tradition" by Syed Hashim Ali Akhter, which lists Qur'anic verses and hadith by topic. It's very easy to use, a good introduction to each topic. It's not exhaustive, but it does have a lot of wonderful information.

Joseph -- Actually, I find American law far more compliant with shariah than Saudi law, as do most Muslims who live here.

And Victoria -- I'm with you on "there is no need to renounce those verses." The Qu'an itself makes it clear they were not a call for unbridled hostility and agression, that they were for a limited time period only, after which it established peace and harmony between religious communities, allowing for friendship, fellowship, even intermarriage. The Qur'an does not call for killing all "infidels" so how can one renounce it?

One can, however, denounce people who pick and choose, ignoring the rest of the text and all historical circumstance, to further their own political agenda -- people such as Bin Laden. It is telling that his orginal demands were: Israel out of Palestine, US troops out of Saudi Arabia, overthrow of the Saudi government. No where do I see a religion goal -- no destroy their way of life, overthrow all non-Muslim governments, etc. He is using religion for political ends, and that alone is reason enough for condemnation. Politics and religion should not mix; the results as we have seen for millenia, are horrific. (I might add that certain atheists have not been much better at avoiding horrific abuses of human rights.)

So too, one can renounce violence. I don't believe in war (although I do believe in the right to self-defense.) Muslims should speak up against the horrible violence that is going on in Darfur and Iraq. We should denounce vigilante "justice" and stand firmly for freedom of conscience and freedom of expression, and due process.

You say Jesus will judge people but Jesus himself refutes and denies your claim in John 12:

John 12:44Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 45And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me. 46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness. 47And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. 49For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.

He may be their accuser on the day of judgment but not their judge for there is only one judge and that is the one that sent him, God and God alone.

John 8:39They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. 41Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Jesus testified that he was man sent by God. You don't believe him and what he testified to, yet you believe some pagan romans who wanted to make a god out of him, a mere man. Repent and don't say about God, and for that matter Jesus but the truth. Jesus is a man and prophet from God; peace and blessing of God be him and his blessed mother for ever and ever more, amen.

The mere suggestion of Sharia law by Muslim immigrants is really insulting to the non-Muslim hosts. I wonder if Muslims ever considered this fact or have any realization of the depth of the insult. It's like Christians emigrating to Saudi Arabia and insisting on a change in the Islamic law to Christian law, or at least allow Christians to ignore/bypass Saudi Islamic law for Christian laws. That would be unacceptable in Saudi Arabia or any other Muslim country - as it is unacceptable in the United States of America.

So Muslims - don't even think of asking for the introduction of Sharia law amongst yourselves (or anyone else) in the USA. You knew very well sharia law is not permitted here when you migrated, so don't ask for it. Don't even think about it. If you want Sharia you can go to Saudi Arabia.

Muhammad has added to this book and reduced Jesus to a mere man. He and all who are His followers will receive the judgment of God. Muslim, the Son of God whom you deny will be your judge. "Unless you repent you will all likewise perish"

12"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. 13I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."

14Blessed are those who wash their robes,[e] so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. 15Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

16"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

17The Spirit and the Bride say, "Come." And let the one who hears say, "Come." And let the one who is thirsty come; let the one who desires take the water of life without price.

18I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book, 19and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.

20He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming soon." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!

21The grace of the Lord Jesus be with all. Amen.

The Seventh Trumpet
15Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever." 16And the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17saying,

"We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty,
who is and who was,
for you have taken your great power
and begun to reign.
18The nations raged,
but your wrath came,
and the time for the dead to be judged,
and for rewarding your servants,[c] the prophets and saints,
and those who fear your name,
both small and great,
and for destroying the destroyers of the earth."

19Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings,[d] peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

The Two Witnesses
1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff, and I was told, "Rise and measure the temple of God and the altar and those who worship there, 2but do not measure the court outside the temple; leave that out, for it is given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth."

4These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5And if anyone would harm them, fire pours from their mouth and consumes their foes. If anyone would harm them, this is how he is doomed to be killed. 6They have the power to shut the sky, that no rain may fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every kind of plague, as often as they desire. 7And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that rises from the bottomless pit[a] will make war on them and conquer them and kill them, 8and their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city that symbolically[b] is called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was crucified. 9For three and a half days some from the peoples and tribes and languages and nations will gaze at their dead bodies and refuse to let them be placed in a tomb, 10and those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry and exchange presents, because these two prophets had been a torment to those who dwell on the earth. 11But after the three and a half days a breath of life from God entered them, and they stood up on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them. 12Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, "Come up here!" And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. 13And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

14The second woe has passed; behold, the third woe is soon to come.

The Coming of the Son of Man
29"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Abomination of Desolation
15"So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! 20Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There he is!' do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25See, I have told you beforehand. 26So, if they say to you, 'Look, he is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look, he is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

9"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10And then many will fall away[a] and betray one another and hate one another. 11And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

Signs of the Close of the Age
3As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?" 4And Jesus answered them, "See that no one leads you astray. 5For many will come in my name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and they will lead many astray. 6And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

Concerned,

Was it not until 1920 that women in the USA were allowed to vote? Think of all the atrocities in this "Christian" nation (rape, sexual harrasment, domestic violence, unequal pay, Christian government's invasion of women's private health?) before you attack other religions/countries views of women as second or third class citizens.

Asim,

Using comparitive history to prove Islam is pure and perfect will not work. Your "wholly" book prescribes death to unbelievers and treats women like they are third class citizens. Islamics carry out the "word" 24/7 by the killing of fellow Muslims and non-Muslims. We assume you live in a free country with a free press where such daily atrocities are reported? We non-believers condemn all such injustices no matter who commits or committed them. Please do the same. Until you do, your "religion" is a sham.

Martian Valentine searched whole life for a philosophy that embodied the true egalitarianism.
The true spiritual state of all men and women...

She found this in islam.

I congratulate you,Dear Philosopher...I congratulate you.

----I am sometimes surprised some non-Muslim Americans in On Faith threads are really interested in and constantly spouting Hadiths and the Qur'an when there is no possibility that Shariah law or even Islamic Family Law will be formulated and implemented in the United States.---

Really? Well it already happens in Muslim areas of Britain.
Sharia family law is rampant (and known about by the Police) and Sharia financial rules are WELL bedded down.

And I like that the (dubious) arguement about the barabarity and prejudice of Islamic based Sharia Law is simply "It don't matter none because it won't happen here anyway".
HA! Well if that's the only defense we had better REALLY hope it never does.

asim- i would welcome your input on the israel question blog

This is the story of the Jewish tribe in Medina in the 7th century.
Before some of the posters here go back 1400 years to talk about the justice administered to treacherous Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah in Medina, they should look at the more recent genocide of Muslims in Bosnia, Lebanon and the on going genocide of course in Palestine:

Eight thousand Bosnian Muslim boys and men were handcuffed, blindfolded and led to by Serbs Orthodox Christians and with full knowledge of the UN Dutch military unit (Protestant and Catholic Christians) to a forest in Bosnia just outside Sbernicha: they were murdered in cold blood, en masse genocide-summary executions; thou those innocent victims were European Slavs and citizens of ex-Yugoslavia, their only crime was that they were Muslim. This did not happen 2000 years ago, it happened in 1991.The total number of Muslims murdered by the Christian Serbs in that war exceeded 250,000 including mass rape of children and women in the heart of and while “Civilized Christian Europe” looked on. The number would have been much higher were not for the intervention of USA to protect whatever remained of Muslim population.

So who is violent and intolerant?

During the reign of the Prophet in the city/state of Medina early 7th century, every one was a full citizen with full civic and religious rights: the new Muslims, Christians, the Jews and the Pagans of Arabia. The Quran states unequivocally that " No Compulsion in Religion.")The Prophet who had just established the first Islamic city/state in Medina, had signed a treaty with-among others-the Jewish tribe of Banu Qorizah-to defend the new state and where the treaty stipulated that the members of this tribe being citizens of the new Islamic city-state agreed never to ally themselves with the enemies of the infant Islamic state nor to carry arms against it in exchange for granting them-the Jewish tribe- the aforementioned full citizenship rights including guarantying their protection and security. However the Jewish tribe conspired with enemies of the Islamic state and committed treason, treachery and violated the treaty. The Islamic state, lead by the Prophet defatted the aggressors on the battlefield; thereafter the Prophet and the leaders of the Jewish tribe mutually agreed to appointing an acceptable and neutral arbitrator/Judge to rule on the violation of the treaty which the Jewish tribe violated and the Judge ruled that the Jewish tribe was guilty of both joint military aggression with the enemies of the infant state as well as treason as they were citizen of Islamic state. The judge ordered the death penalty to be carried out against the treacherous members of the tribe who committed treason and aggression-as any state would do in self-defense. The numbers of those deserving the death penalty is exaggerated by Jewish sources as usual.

Compare the genocide of 250,000 European Bosnian Muslims –including the mass murder of the 8,000 Muslim boys and men-for no reason other than being Muslim to the death penalty administered against Jewish citizens of an Islamic infant state because they committed treason and aggression and violated a treaty-not because they were Jewish.

How about 1200 Lebanese civilians bombed to death by Israel last July as well as the destruction of Lebanon’s civilian infrastructure?

How about the holocaust and Apartheid imposed on the tormented Palestinians by Israel for past 60 years in refugee camps outside Palestine and in a big Concentration Camp called Gaza and West bank? Just during the last couple of years Israel slaughtered over 700 seven hundred Palestinians most of them children and women.

So who is just and tloerant and who is violent?

Victoria,

If you want to be the best Muslim you can be then renounce the militant passages and the anti-female messages of your Koran. Without that, you are living to the dictates of a religious sham. God/Alluh cannot be pleased!!!!

i searched my whole life for a philosophy that embodied the true egalitarianism i felt was the true spiritual state of all men and women-

i have found this in islam-

if i go to some corner of the world where the people have never seen electricity- or think its witchcraft or evil- their views would not stop me from using a flashlight in their presence if i needed one-

i look at people without knowledge of islam or fear of what they dont understand in the same way-

i wont sit in the dark with them becuase it gives them comfort in their ignorance- but turn on my little flashlight and confront them with the superiority of the light over their rooted prejudices

(i just made that up- ill remember it)

heres a good reason to be muslim

On the other hand, Islam is an egalitarian (equal) creed, which explicitly rejects such oppression. Men are not superior to women in Islam and women are not superior to men in Islam. Allah says in the Quran, "The best of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct and Allah consciousness" S49-13.

The Prophet said, "All people are equal like the teeth of a comb. There is no merit of an Arab over a non-Arab or a white over a black person or of a male over a female. Only Allah-conscious people merit a preference with Allah". Another teaching is, "Women are the twin halves of men." It is therefore difficult to imagine twin halves who do not have equal rights.

In Islam equality in spiritual and moral duties produces equality in spiritual and moral rights. The Quran reflects: "For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast and deny themselves, for men and women who guard their chastity and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praises. For them Allah has prepared forgiveness and great reward"

this speaks to me and if it doesnt speak to others- i cannot help that but it wont stop me from being the best muslim i can be

salaams peeps-

ASIM- the reason why i bother with concerned (actually i have taken to skipping halozcel altogether as the posts are too confused)
and islamophobe in general- i because for one reason- to illustrate a balance that people can see between unreasoned fear and reasoned response-

2) to assure others who may peek in and mistake concerneds posts as representative of islam and demonstrate sabur (patience) and tolerance in action-

this is the association thinking people will remeber as being islamic behavior-

the polemicists are glaringly transparent so i think the polarity between the two becomes more pronounced when set against such radical extremist xenophobia

ABD
Is that you Allen? If you are Allen or even some other reasonable person, the way to elevate these discussions is to participate in them yourself. I do wish more people used this opportunity to learn more about where members of other faiths are coming from spiritually and intellectually.
Those who come here just to proselytize seem to be a necessary hazard, let them speak to each other and maybe the rest of us can just talk over them...

Just added proof that Muslims need a readjustment in their thinking and a rewrite of their "good" book.

Just a reminder, Mohammed was illiterate, angels are myths and the Koran was written by scribes who spent way too much time in the Sun.

And of particular interest, such a description of Mohammed in an Islamic controlled country would result in my death. Scary and the reason non-believers in Islam, don't want Muslims in their neighborhood.

"Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah" (Qur'an 8:39).

Qur'an 9:30 And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah. That is their saying with their mouths. They imitate the saying of those who disbelieved of old. Allah (Himself) fighteth against them. How perverse are they!

how come it's always the same bunch of losers on this forum?

Concerned the Christian now liberated:

BTW, I’m female, and John is my (late) father’s first name (according to community custom), so I’m quite happy for you to address me as simply Soja.

Four years ago, I was hit by a car. I could have been killed instantly. I suffered closed internal head injury, loss of short term memory, and had one knee ligament torn. Yet all I have in memory of that accident today is a small superficial scar on my right knee, which I could have got by scraping it against something rough (because I tend to develop scars even with the most superficial wound).

I give the example to show that my end could have come at a time when I least expected and wanted it – I was thrilled about my new job which I had joined just the day before the day of the accident, and dying was the last thing I had on my mind. It happens to people all the time – getting killed in accidents or with disease at an early age. So I don’t worry about the end of the world. I only need to worry about the end of my world, to do that little I can and move on. The end of the world will take care of itself.

There is a spiritual world out there – a created world between God the uncreated Spirit, and the Creator of all, and man - whether you believe in it or not. If angels and spirits, existed in all religious traditions and mythologies, then there is a good reason for it – a spiritual world exists, with beings that may be called angels, spirits, departed human spirits or whatever. What difference does a name make or what shape and form someone ascribes to them?

From the Bible verses I was referring to in my comment to Ross:

As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” (Matthew 24:3)

No-one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the Ark; and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.” (Matthew 24:36-39)

“Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So also you must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.” (Matthew 24:42-44)

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

“When, when the sacr